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Angelos
Reach Life
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Posted - 2009.05.05 00:50:00 -
[1]
Can someone tell me why I would want to use T2 railguns if I don't plan on using T2 ammo? Prototypes seem to be identical to T2 except they fit better, so I'm failing to see why I would ever use T2.
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
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Posted - 2009.05.05 00:51:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 05/05/2009 00:51:22
Two reasons:
- Price
- The T2 spec skill gives an additional DPS increase to T2 guns
-Liang
Ed: A third reason that comes to mind is availability. Meta 4 guns aren't always available, but T2 usually are.
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Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
www.kwikdeath.org |
Angelos
Reach Life
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Posted - 2009.05.05 01:01:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Liang Nuren
Two reasons:
- Price
- The T2 spec skill gives an additional DPS increase to T2 guns
-Liang
Ed: A third reason that comes to mind is availability. Meta 4 guns aren't always available, but T2 usually are.
Is the railgun spec skill the only benefiting skill for T2? Extra DPS for cheaper is good, but would take a while for me to train up to T2 Large since I've never bothered.
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
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Posted - 2009.05.05 01:10:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Angelos
Is the railgun spec skill the only benefiting skill for T2? Extra DPS for cheaper is good, but would take a while for me to train up to T2 Large since I've never bothered.
Yes, the spec skill only applies to T2 guns.
-Liang
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Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
www.kwikdeath.org |
Angelos
Reach Life
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Posted - 2009.05.05 01:31:00 -
[5]
Well maybe when I get AWU V I'll start training for T2, but 10% more damage at level 5 just doesn't seem like a lot for that many SP's...
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Destoya
Seppuku Warriors
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Posted - 2009.05.05 02:00:00 -
[6]
Believe me, you need t2 guns if you want to PVP. 10% damage is a lot more than you would think, and the SP's are hardly wasted (if you want to save time, Railgun specialization IV is a shorter way to go)
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Angelos
Reach Life
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Posted - 2009.05.05 02:25:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Destoya
Believe me, you need t2 guns if you want to PVP. 10% damage is a lot more than you would think, and the SP's are hardly wasted (if you want to save time, Railgun specialization IV is a shorter way to go)
Well ATM I'm not doing PVP. And even if I was, the extra 8-10% is maybe 20dps? Unless I go sniper and use T2 ammo I'm still having a difficult time spending training time on T2.
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Ghoest
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Posted - 2009.05.05 02:46:00 -
[8]
If you want to pvp the price plus the damage makes t2 a no brainers.
If your just doing PVE you can get by using meta 4, but you will be doing less damage.
Wherever you went - Here you are.
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Jhoria Englside
Another Stupid Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.05.05 02:48:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Angelos
Can someone tell me why I would want to use T2 railguns if I don't plan on using T2 ammo? Prototypes seem to be identical to T2 except they fit better, so I'm failing to see why I would ever use T2.
because youll later realize you do want to use t2 ammo? because its alot cheaper? because meta 4s make you feel like some noob? i like the idea of a full t2 fit. im less wild over a best named fit.
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Angelos
Reach Life
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Posted - 2009.05.05 03:13:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Jhoria Englside
because youll later realize you do want to use t2 ammo? because its alot cheaper? because meta 4s make you feel like some noob? i like the idea of a full t2 fit. im less wild over a best named fit.
But T2 ammo sucks. And I get only about 30dps more using T2 that barely fits the ship. And I don't need to waste time training any skills to get the guns I already have. So I guess I have my answer, I won't be getting T2 anytime soon if ever. Maybe if they come up with some better ammo...
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
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Posted - 2009.05.05 03:35:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Angelos
But T2 ammo sucks. And I get only about 30dps more using T2 that barely fits the ship. And I don't need to waste time training any skills to get the guns I already have. So I guess I have my answer, I won't be getting T2 anytime soon if ever. Maybe if they come up with some better ammo...
Make you a deal: My Hype with T2 guns vs your Mega with T1 guns. Winner take all. :)
-Liang
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Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
www.kwikdeath.org |
FT Diomedes
Gallente
Titan Industries Technology Team
Zenith Affinity
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Posted - 2009.05.05 03:45:00 -
[12]
T2 guns are really essential for PvP - and I highly recommend them for PvE. I don't bother training the Spec skill to V - that last 2% is not worth it compared to having a spaceship command skill at 5. The T2 guns are also cheaper.
...this doesn't even seem to be a regular case of rats fleeing the sinking ship. Seems more like the rats are on fire, the ship is on fire, and the sea is full of drunk Russians. - Jacob Etienne |
Angelos
Reach Life
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Posted - 2009.05.05 04:05:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Make you a deal: My Hype with T2 guns vs your Mega with T1 guns. Winner take all. :)
-Liang
Ed: Also, I strongly encourage you to review the ammo named 'Null'.
Null is for blasters, I use railguns. And the Hype would need T2 guns just to beat the Mega in DPS. EFT shows 7 T1 guns > 8 T1 guns. You'd get higher volley, I'd get faster volley. That extra low slot is worth more than the extra turret slot. Hype is just poorly designed IMO.
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
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Posted - 2009.05.05 04:17:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Angelos
Null is for blasters, I use railguns. And the Hype would need T2 guns just to beat the Mega in DPS. EFT shows 7 T1 guns > 8 T1 guns. You'd get higher volley, I'd get faster volley. That extra low slot is worth more than the extra turret slot. Hype is just poorly designed IMO.
Nah man, you just don't understand what it's useful for IMO. If you *really* believe that 7 T1 guns > 8 T2 guns... lets give it a rumble. :)
-Liang
--
Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
www.kwikdeath.org |
Davinel Lulinvega
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Posted - 2009.05.05 04:33:00 -
[15]
So... T2 guns have equivalent or better than best named dps (depending on spec level), are usually cheaper, and can use t2 ammo. The tradeoff is... slightly harder fitting and a lvl 5 skill that you should be getting anyway? I'm not seeing the problem here  .
The only ship that is so tight on fitting that I would drop to best named to fit the rest of it properly is a nighthawk. And ccp has already admitted that they need to look over nighthawks again.
Level engineering, electronics, wu, and awu and quit whining.
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Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2009.05.05 05:38:00 -
[16]
As everyone else has already posted, T2 is almsot certainly better, and if one possesses the skill to use the T2 module it is nearly always best to bring T2. Sometimes, however, this is not entirely true.
T2 has higher fitting requirements, as such it's often difficult to produce a full "t2" fit. Since firepower is the single most important thing on the battlefield, it is always best to sacrifice something other than a gun or damage mod if it needs downgrading.
Sometimes, the best named version is simply superior to the T2 item. While rare, the 1600mm plate is probably the most famous example. 1600mm Rolled Steel II provides exactly the same number of additional HP as 1600mm Rolled Tungsten I, only it's harder to fit. The upside is the T2 plate can be had for a pittance, and the 1600mm rolled tungsten is often substantially more expensive (their constant loss in PVP almost certainly doesn't help matters much).
Another oddity comes from the missile launcher lineup. Faction guns are the best possible weapons for a player who has not yet invested in the weapon spec skill yet, after the second level of weapon spec, the T2 gun edges out the faction gun at a fraction of the price (and at a heafty increase in fitting requirements). Oftentimes the faction gun maintains advantages in less important areas such as cap usage or range, but as I stated previously, damage is the most important attribute for most ships. Missiles on the other hand do not suffer from this problem. The ROF difference between a base T2 launcher and a base faction launcher is never made up no matter how many SP one invests in the spec skill. Since the only attributesthe launcher affects are ROF and number of missiles held in the bay, the Faction launcher always wins out, and is easier to fit. The downside is that one cannot use T2 missiles (and some of them are fantastically usefuL), and their extreme cost means one will rarely see them intentionally put to use in PVP.
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Future Tense
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2009.05.05 06:07:00 -
[17]
OP has already made up his mind from the nature of his posts.
Bottom line facts:
T2 rails ARE better than T1 rails
T2 rails are cheaper than T1 Meta-rails
T2 ammo opens more options for you (Spike)
T1 is less skill intensive (but then again so is a civilian blaster)
T1 fits better
You've convinced yourself that those are sacrifices and benefits are a deal you're willing to take. Do it then, but you will get anhiliated when facing T2 specced opponents. If you dont want to PvP then that's fine, although it's EvE, you dont really make the decision not to PvP.
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Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2009.05.05 06:14:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Derek Sigres on 05/05/2009 06:15:05
Originally by: Future Tense
You've convinced yourself that those are sacrifices and benefits are a deal you're willing to take. Do it then, but you will get anhiliated when facing T2 specced opponents. If you dont want to PvP then that's fine, although it's EvE, you dont really make the decision not to PvP.
The closest you can get to deciding not to engage in PVP in Eve is deciding that you're going to lose.
That, or never undocking I suppose.
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Renesis Maximus
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Posted - 2009.05.05 16:06:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Renesis Maximus on 05/05/2009 16:08:01
Originally by: Derek Sigres
Edited by: Derek Sigres on 05/05/2009 06:15:05
Originally by: Future Tense
You've convinced yourself that those are sacrifices and benefits are a deal you're willing to take. Do it then, but you will get anhiliated when facing T2 specced opponents. If you dont want to PvP then that's fine, although it's EvE, you dont really make the decision not to PvP.
The closest you can get to deciding not to engage in PVP in Eve is deciding that you're going to lose.
That, or never undocking I suppose.
No, you can be a carebear in an NPC corp that doesn't engage in FW. If you stay in empire, chances are, you will never be in a PVP situation, and unless they are suicide gankers, nobody will ever attack you in empire, because they will instapop by concord.
That whole "if you never want to PVP, don't play eve" is pretty annoying, since there are multiple playstyles that keep you from ever being PVP bait.
Hell, you could play for several years and never leave jita if you didn't want to...I know a couple guys who's mains have never left jita, they just invest, and buy and sell in order to fund isk for an alt or to trade it for GTC to sell...
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arbiter reborn
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Posted - 2009.05.05 16:12:00 -
[20]
mmmm t2, yeh train it loks sexy on your losses if nothing else and you can wave some small epeen with that new link fitting thing. either way t2 is almost always better
ps t2 1600 also give you more mass
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Bronson Hughes
ADVANCED Combat and Engineering
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Posted - 2009.05.05 16:19:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Angelos
Can someone tell me why I would want to use T2 railguns if I don't plan on using T2 ammo? Prototypes seem to be identical to T2 except they fit better, so I'm failing to see why I would ever use T2.
Repeating for emphasis:
1. More damage from spec. skill.
2. Generally cheaper than best named.
3. Forces you to train skills that you should already be training anyways if you're serious about using railguns
4. Javelin ammo for rails is utter crap compared to faction anti-matter, but Spike is wonderful if you ever end up sniping.
5. T2 items can be manufactured, best named cannot. This is a non-issue for Empire dwellers but potentially a problem for 0.0 residents. Have you ever tried to find best named railguns in, say, Esoteria? Not pretty.
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"I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne |
Overbrain
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Posted - 2009.05.05 16:54:00 -
[22]
Also another thing is that best named items require less cpu and power grid than their t2 counterparts.
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Krist Valentine
Amarr
Ministry of War
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Posted - 2009.05.06 18:20:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Overbrain
Also another thing is that best named items require less cpu and power grid than their t2 counterparts.
cheers for the update
Originally by: Future Tense
T1 fits better
Originally by: Davinel Lulinvega
slightly harder fitting
Originally by: Angelos
they fit better
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Mystafyre
Caldari
Dark Materials
Heretic Nation
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Posted - 2009.05.06 18:54:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Angelos
Can someone tell me why I would want to use T2 railguns if I don't plan on using T2 ammo? Prototypes seem to be identical to T2 except they fit better, so I'm failing to see why I would ever use T2.
Trust me, YOU WANT to have them.
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Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge
Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2009.05.06 19:21:00 -
[25]
I use T2 rails. I'll be honest, I use T1 faction ammo in it instead of Spike - because I have the luxury of flying a Rokh which has the bonus to shoot far enough without spike. If you fly a Mega or Hyp - you have to use spike to get any meaningful range and damage.
Taking the time to get them specced to IV was worth it - remember every little edge matters - especially when you mix in implants (slot 10 for large hybrids, and slot 9 for all hybrids), and overheating.
When my ship explodes its easier knowing I lost <20 mil on a rack of T2 guns vs >40 mil.
Price and better damage. Two key principles of successful pvp.
Important Internet Spaceship League Wants You |
TraininVain
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Posted - 2009.05.06 20:11:00 -
[26]
Edited by: TraininVain on 06/05/2009 20:12:58
If you plan on shooting as a primary pastime in EVE you should be training the T2 guns.
I don't know exactly how the maths breaks down but there's a significant jump in DPS with T2 guns vs. T1.
The test rax I made in EFT gained ~50 DPS using T2 guns.
T2 ammo is not ****e. T2 short range high damage ammo is ****e-ish, but the ranged stuff is <3.
But hey, if "Cheaper, does a bunch more damage, more ammo flexibility" doesn't do it for you, use whatever you like. We don't care.
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Krist Valentine
Amarr
Ministry of War
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Posted - 2009.05.06 20:53:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Krist Valentine on 06/05/2009 20:56:16
Originally by: TraininVain
But hey, if "Cheaper, does a bunch more damage, more ammo flexibility" doesn't do it for you, use whatever you like. We don't care.
i care
i find it pretty upsetting that hes allowed a keyboard
or life
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Lee Dalton
THE FINAL STAND
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Posted - 2009.05.07 00:12:00 -
[28]
Reasons to use T2 rails:
-damage
-cost
-availability
-Spike
***
You're only as good as your last fight. |
Swearte Widfarend
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Posted - 2009.05.12 23:01:00 -
[29]
Are rails even a PvP tool? all the loadouts I see at battleclinic are Blasters, for close range. I'm NOT experienced in PvP, as I've lost the 6 battles I've found myself in, but if I fit T2 rails (because I can) are they a PvE weapon or a PvP weapon?
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lollerwaffle
Sileo In Pacis
The Space P0lice
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Posted - 2009.05.12 23:10:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Swearte Widfarend
Are rails even a PvP tool? all the loadouts I see at battleclinic are Blasters, for close range. I'm NOT experienced in PvP, as I've lost the 6 battles I've found myself in, but if I fit T2 rails (because I can) are they a PvE weapon or a PvP weapon?
They're used a lot in 0.0 but less so in lowsec. Lowsec fighting tends to have less numbers, so dedicating 1 whole ship to a sniper role means you lose some dps you could have had if that sniper ship was close range fitted. Also often times there isn't a dedicated sniping fleet so that lone sniper out there is dead if caught out far from his mates.
0.0 on the other hand ustilises a lot of sniper hacs/BS etc for fleet ops
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