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Angelos Reach Life	Posted - 2009.05.05 00:50:00 - [1] Can someone tell me why I would want to use T2 railguns if I don't plan on using T2 ammo? Prototypes seem to be identical to T2 except they fit better, so I'm failing to see why I would ever use T2.
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2009.05.05 00:51:00 - [2] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 05/05/2009 00:51:22 Two reasons: - Price - The T2 spec skill gives an additional DPS increase to T2 guns -Liang Ed: A third reason that comes to mind is availability. Meta 4 guns aren't always available, but T2 usually are. -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
Angelos Reach Life	Posted - 2009.05.05 01:01:00 - [3] Originally by: Liang Nuren Two reasons: - Price - The T2 spec skill gives an additional DPS increase to T2 guns -Liang Ed: A third reason that comes to mind is availability. Meta 4 guns aren't always available, but T2 usually are. Is the railgun spec skill the only benefiting skill for T2? Extra DPS for cheaper is good, but would take a while for me to train up to T2 Large since I've never bothered.
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2009.05.05 01:10:00 - [4] Originally by: Angelos Is the railgun spec skill the only benefiting skill for T2? Extra DPS for cheaper is good, but would take a while for me to train up to T2 Large since I've never bothered. Yes, the spec skill only applies to T2 guns. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
Angelos Reach Life	Posted - 2009.05.05 01:31:00 - [5] Well maybe when I get AWU V I'll start training for T2, but 10% more damage at level 5 just doesn't seem like a lot for that many SP's...
Destoya Seppuku Warriors	Posted - 2009.05.05 02:00:00 - [6] Believe me, you need t2 guns if you want to PVP. 10% damage is a lot more than you would think, and the SP's are hardly wasted (if you want to save time, Railgun specialization IV is a shorter way to go)
Angelos Reach Life	Posted - 2009.05.05 02:25:00 - [7] Originally by: Destoya Believe me, you need t2 guns if you want to PVP. 10% damage is a lot more than you would think, and the SP's are hardly wasted (if you want to save time, Railgun specialization IV is a shorter way to go) Well ATM I'm not doing PVP. And even if I was, the extra 8-10% is maybe 20dps? Unless I go sniper and use T2 ammo I'm still having a difficult time spending training time on T2.
Ghoest	Posted - 2009.05.05 02:46:00 - [8] If you want to pvp the price plus the damage makes t2 a no brainers. If your just doing PVE you can get by using meta 4, but you will be doing less damage. Wherever you went - Here you are.
Jhoria Englside Another Stupid Syndicate	Posted - 2009.05.05 02:48:00 - [9] Originally by: Angelos Can someone tell me why I would want to use T2 railguns if I don't plan on using T2 ammo? Prototypes seem to be identical to T2 except they fit better, so I'm failing to see why I would ever use T2. because youll later realize you do want to use t2 ammo? because its alot cheaper? because meta 4s make you feel like some noob? i like the idea of a full t2 fit. im less wild over a best named fit.
Angelos Reach Life	Posted - 2009.05.05 03:13:00 - [10] Originally by: Jhoria Englside because youll later realize you do want to use t2 ammo? because its alot cheaper? because meta 4s make you feel like some noob? i like the idea of a full t2 fit. im less wild over a best named fit. But T2 ammo sucks. And I get only about 30dps more using T2 that barely fits the ship. And I don't need to waste time training any skills to get the guns I already have. So I guess I have my answer, I won't be getting T2 anytime soon if ever. Maybe if they come up with some better ammo...
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2009.05.05 03:35:00 - [11] Originally by: Angelos But T2 ammo sucks. And I get only about 30dps more using T2 that barely fits the ship. And I don't need to waste time training any skills to get the guns I already have. So I guess I have my answer, I won't be getting T2 anytime soon if ever. Maybe if they come up with some better ammo... Make you a deal: My Hype with T2 guns vs your Mega with T1 guns. Winner take all. :) -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
FT Diomedes Gallente Titan Industries Technology Team Zenith Affinity	Posted - 2009.05.05 03:45:00 - [12] T2 guns are really essential for PvP - and I highly recommend them for PvE. I don't bother training the Spec skill to V - that last 2% is not worth it compared to having a spaceship command skill at 5. The T2 guns are also cheaper. ...this doesn't even seem to be a regular case of rats fleeing the sinking ship. Seems more like the rats are on fire, the ship is on fire, and the sea is full of drunk Russians. - Jacob Etienne
Angelos Reach Life	Posted - 2009.05.05 04:05:00 - [13] Originally by: Liang Nuren Make you a deal: My Hype with T2 guns vs your Mega with T1 guns. Winner take all. :) -Liang Ed: Also, I strongly encourage you to review the ammo named 'Null'. Null is for blasters, I use railguns. And the Hype would need T2 guns just to beat the Mega in DPS. EFT shows 7 T1 guns > 8 T1 guns. You'd get higher volley, I'd get faster volley. That extra low slot is worth more than the extra turret slot. Hype is just poorly designed IMO.
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2009.05.05 04:17:00 - [14] Originally by: Angelos Null is for blasters, I use railguns. And the Hype would need T2 guns just to beat the Mega in DPS. EFT shows 7 T1 guns > 8 T1 guns. You'd get higher volley, I'd get faster volley. That extra low slot is worth more than the extra turret slot. Hype is just poorly designed IMO. Nah man, you just don't understand what it's useful for IMO. If you really believe that 7 T1 guns > 8 T2 guns... lets give it a rumble. :) -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
Davinel Lulinvega	Posted - 2009.05.05 04:33:00 - [15] So... T2 guns have equivalent or better than best named dps (depending on spec level), are usually cheaper, and can use t2 ammo. The tradeoff is... slightly harder fitting and a lvl 5 skill that you should be getting anyway? I'm not seeing the problem here . The only ship that is so tight on fitting that I would drop to best named to fit the rest of it properly is a nighthawk. And ccp has already admitted that they need to look over nighthawks again. Level engineering, electronics, wu, and awu and quit whining.
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2009.05.05 05:38:00 - [16] As everyone else has already posted, T2 is almsot certainly better, and if one possesses the skill to use the T2 module it is nearly always best to bring T2. Sometimes, however, this is not entirely true. T2 has higher fitting requirements, as such it's often difficult to produce a full "t2" fit. Since firepower is the single most important thing on the battlefield, it is always best to sacrifice something other than a gun or damage mod if it needs downgrading. Sometimes, the best named version is simply superior to the T2 item. While rare, the 1600mm plate is probably the most famous example. 1600mm Rolled Steel II provides exactly the same number of additional HP as 1600mm Rolled Tungsten I, only it's harder to fit. The upside is the T2 plate can be had for a pittance, and the 1600mm rolled tungsten is often substantially more expensive (their constant loss in PVP almost certainly doesn't help matters much). Another oddity comes from the missile launcher lineup. Faction guns are the best possible weapons for a player who has not yet invested in the weapon spec skill yet, after the second level of weapon spec, the T2 gun edges out the faction gun at a fraction of the price (and at a heafty increase in fitting requirements). Oftentimes the faction gun maintains advantages in less important areas such as cap usage or range, but as I stated previously, damage is the most important attribute for most ships. Missiles on the other hand do not suffer from this problem. The ROF difference between a base T2 launcher and a base faction launcher is never made up no matter how many SP one invests in the spec skill. Since the only attributesthe launcher affects are ROF and number of missiles held in the bay, the Faction launcher always wins out, and is easier to fit. The downside is that one cannot use T2 missiles (and some of them are fantastically usefuL), and their extreme cost means one will rarely see them intentionally put to use in PVP.
Future Tense Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2009.05.05 06:07:00 - [17] OP has already made up his mind from the nature of his posts. Bottom line facts: T2 rails ARE better than T1 rails T2 rails are cheaper than T1 Meta-rails T2 ammo opens more options for you (Spike) T1 is less skill intensive (but then again so is a civilian blaster) T1 fits better You've convinced yourself that those are sacrifices and benefits are a deal you're willing to take. Do it then, but you will get anhiliated when facing T2 specced opponents. If you dont want to PvP then that's fine, although it's EvE, you dont really make the decision not to PvP.
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2009.05.05 06:14:00 - [18] Edited by: Derek Sigres on 05/05/2009 06:15:05 Originally by: Future Tense You've convinced yourself that those are sacrifices and benefits are a deal you're willing to take. Do it then, but you will get anhiliated when facing T2 specced opponents. If you dont want to PvP then that's fine, although it's EvE, you dont really make the decision not to PvP. The closest you can get to deciding not to engage in PVP in Eve is deciding that you're going to lose. That, or never undocking I suppose.
Renesis Maximus	Posted - 2009.05.05 16:06:00 - [19] Edited by: Renesis Maximus on 05/05/2009 16:08:01 Originally by: Derek Sigres Edited by: Derek Sigres on 05/05/2009 06:15:05 Originally by: Future Tense You've convinced yourself that those are sacrifices and benefits are a deal you're willing to take. Do it then, but you will get anhiliated when facing T2 specced opponents. If you dont want to PvP then that's fine, although it's EvE, you dont really make the decision not to PvP. The closest you can get to deciding not to engage in PVP in Eve is deciding that you're going to lose. That, or never undocking I suppose. No, you can be a carebear in an NPC corp that doesn't engage in FW. If you stay in empire, chances are, you will never be in a PVP situation, and unless they are suicide gankers, nobody will ever attack you in empire, because they will instapop by concord. That whole "if you never want to PVP, don't play eve" is pretty annoying, since there are multiple playstyles that keep you from ever being PVP bait. Hell, you could play for several years and never leave jita if you didn't want to...I know a couple guys who's mains have never left jita, they just invest, and buy and sell in order to fund isk for an alt or to trade it for GTC to sell...
arbiter reborn	Posted - 2009.05.05 16:12:00 - [20] mmmm t2, yeh train it loks sexy on your losses if nothing else and you can wave some small epeen with that new link fitting thing. either way t2 is almost always better ps t2 1600 also give you more mass
Bronson Hughes ADVANCED Combat and Engineering	Posted - 2009.05.05 16:19:00 - [21] Originally by: Angelos Can someone tell me why I would want to use T2 railguns if I don't plan on using T2 ammo? Prototypes seem to be identical to T2 except they fit better, so I'm failing to see why I would ever use T2. Repeating for emphasis: 1. More damage from spec. skill. 2. Generally cheaper than best named. 3. Forces you to train skills that you should already be training anyways if you're serious about using railguns 4. Javelin ammo for rails is utter crap compared to faction anti-matter, but Spike is wonderful if you ever end up sniping. 5. T2 items can be manufactured, best named cannot. This is a non-issue for Empire dwellers but potentially a problem for 0.0 residents. Have you ever tried to find best named railguns in, say, Esoteria? Not pretty. -------------------- "I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne
Overbrain	Posted - 2009.05.05 16:54:00 - [22] Also another thing is that best named items require less cpu and power grid than their t2 counterparts.
Krist Valentine Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2009.05.06 18:20:00 - [23] Originally by: Overbrain Also another thing is that best named items require less cpu and power grid than their t2 counterparts. cheers for the update Originally by: Future Tense T1 fits better Originally by: Davinel Lulinvega slightly harder fitting Originally by: Angelos they fit better
Mystafyre Caldari Dark Materials Heretic Nation	Posted - 2009.05.06 18:54:00 - [24] Originally by: Angelos Can someone tell me why I would want to use T2 railguns if I don't plan on using T2 ammo? Prototypes seem to be identical to T2 except they fit better, so I'm failing to see why I would ever use T2. Trust me, YOU WANT to have them.
Omarvelous Destry's Lounge Important Internet Spaceship League	Posted - 2009.05.06 19:21:00 - [25] I use T2 rails. I'll be honest, I use T1 faction ammo in it instead of Spike - because I have the luxury of flying a Rokh which has the bonus to shoot far enough without spike. If you fly a Mega or Hyp - you have to use spike to get any meaningful range and damage. Taking the time to get them specced to IV was worth it - remember every little edge matters - especially when you mix in implants (slot 10 for large hybrids, and slot 9 for all hybrids), and overheating. When my ship explodes its easier knowing I lost <20 mil on a rack of T2 guns vs >40 mil. Price and better damage. Two key principles of successful pvp. Important Internet Spaceship League Wants You
TraininVain	Posted - 2009.05.06 20:11:00 - [26] Edited by: TraininVain on 06/05/2009 20:12:58 If you plan on shooting as a primary pastime in EVE you should be training the T2 guns. I don't know exactly how the maths breaks down but there's a significant jump in DPS with T2 guns vs. T1. The test rax I made in EFT gained ~50 DPS using T2 guns. T2 ammo is not **e. T2 short range high damage ammo is **e-ish, but the ranged stuff is <3. But hey, if "Cheaper, does a bunch more damage, more ammo flexibility" doesn't do it for you, use whatever you like. We don't care.
Krist Valentine Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2009.05.06 20:53:00 - [27] Edited by: Krist Valentine on 06/05/2009 20:56:16 Originally by: TraininVain But hey, if "Cheaper, does a bunch more damage, more ammo flexibility" doesn't do it for you, use whatever you like. We don't care. i care i find it pretty upsetting that hes allowed a keyboard or life
Lee Dalton THE FINAL STAND	Posted - 2009.05.07 00:12:00 - [28] Reasons to use T2 rails: -damage -cost -availability -Spike *** You're only as good as your last fight.
Swearte Widfarend	Posted - 2009.05.12 23:01:00 - [29] Are rails even a PvP tool? all the loadouts I see at battleclinic are Blasters, for close range. I'm NOT experienced in PvP, as I've lost the 6 battles I've found myself in, but if I fit T2 rails (because I can) are they a PvE weapon or a PvP weapon?
lollerwaffle Sileo In Pacis The Space P0lice	Posted - 2009.05.12 23:10:00 - [30] Originally by: Swearte Widfarend Are rails even a PvP tool? all the loadouts I see at battleclinic are Blasters, for close range. I'm NOT experienced in PvP, as I've lost the 6 battles I've found myself in, but if I fit T2 rails (because I can) are they a PvE weapon or a PvP weapon? They're used a lot in 0.0 but less so in lowsec. Lowsec fighting tends to have less numbers, so dedicating 1 whole ship to a sniper role means you lose some dps you could have had if that sniper ship was close range fitted. Also often times there isn't a dedicated sniping fleet so that lone sniper out there is dead if caught out far from his mates. 0.0 on the other hand ustilises a lot of sniper hacs/BS etc for fleet ops
Biced	Posted - 2009.05.12 23:32:00 - [31] missions right? well in this case the op is actually right =/ best named t1 take ,less grid ,less cpu and less cap. a bit less damage but better tank. cant use t2 ammo, but you dont really need to shoot over 100km in missions.
Liang Nuren No Salvation Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2009.05.12 23:37:00 - [32] Originally by: Biced missions right? well in this case the op is actually right =/ best named t1 take ,less grid ,less cpu and less cap. a bit less damage but better tank. cant use t2 ammo, but you dont really need to shoot over 100km in missions. Actually, in that case the OP is especially wrong. T2 guns give ~10% damage over best named guns... and missions are about damage not tank. Nobody gives a **** if you can tank 10K damage in your mission... the missions don't deal that much anyway. All that really matters about your tank is that you don't die or warp out. It's trivial to get a fit with T2 guns that supports this premise. Therefore OP is (still) wrong. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
Dasalt Istgut	Posted - 2009.05.13 03:28:00 - [33] Originally by: Angelos Can someone tell me why I would want to use T2 railguns if I don't plan on using T2 ammo? Prototypes seem to be identical to T2 except they fit better, so I'm failing to see why I would ever use T2. For PVE none of the skills really matter at all to be honest. PVE in Eve isn't known for its challenging and competitive nature.
nakKEDK Gallente tr0pa de elite Triumvirate.	Posted - 2009.05.13 07:32:00 - [34] Range? k
Foulque	Posted - 2009.05.13 08:22:00 - [35] Aside from best named vs T2 in specs the benefit you get from training Large Hybrid 5 and Sharpshooter 5 make it worth it. T2 Large > AWU5 ________
Kazang Gallente Wrecking Shots	Posted - 2009.05.13 10:46:00 - [36] You are forgetting that the large hybrid skill gives you 5% per level, then you get your 2% per level from the spec skill, which you should train to 4 if you plan on using railguns much. Giving you 13% more damage with a t2 over meta 4. T2 large hybrids also opens up t2 ammo without which you cannot effectively snipe with railguns. But seriously 13% is a lot, if you're just running missions thats about 5 mins faster mission'ing per hour if you into that kind of grinding, otherwise bigger numbers on screen, more isk made and more isk saved from cheaper guns, that can only be a good thing? The question is simple anyway, do you want to be better skilled at using rails? If yes train to 5, if no train something else......... Kazang
Welktickler	Posted - 2009.05.13 11:28:00 - [37] My only concern is the fitting requirements. On some eft fits I have to fit less guns and this mean less dps overall anyway :S
Liang Nuren No Salvation Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2009.05.13 17:07:00 - [38] Originally by: Welktickler My only concern is the fitting requirements. On some eft fits I have to fit less guns and this mean less dps overall anyway :S Then TBH you should ask the rest of us how to fit whatever ship you're looking at. It's fairly trivial to fit the appropriate guns to the appropriate ship and then build a fit around it - even with T2 guns. For instance, I was missioning in my Domi last night: 5x 350mm Rail II, DLA 2x CR II, 3x Omni LAR II, 4x Hardener II, 2x MFS II SDA, CCC, ANP 6x Garde II, 6x Ogre II, 5x Med Sheild bot, 5x Hobgoblin II (there may be another flight of crap in there, who knows) There is really no reason to look further than a 5x 350mm sentry domi for PVE purposes... but if you insist (and want to stay Gallente), I'd probably go with an 8x 350mm Hype with a couple TC's. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
Biced	Posted - 2009.05.13 17:31:00 - [39] Actually, in that case the OP is especially wrong. T2 guns give ~10% damage over best named guns... and missions are about damage not tank. Nobody gives a **** if you can tank 10K damage in your mission... the missions don't deal that much anyway. All that really matters about your tank is that you don't die or warp out. It's trivial to get a fit with T2 guns that supports this premise. Therefore OP is (still) wrong. -Liang have you tried fitting 8 tachyon beams on the abaddon? t2 is over rated in missions i have have the skills for both. BS 5 > t2 turrets in missions. If you are flying a gun boat and have fitting/cap problems cause of the guns, why not downgrade to t1 best named? cause of the 8% more damage? or the t2 ammo that gives you over 100km optimal which you dont need? no one has the spec skill at lvl 5 for missions =p the last 2% are not worth it imo anyway. (rather get something else for this amount of sp but thats just me) one more damage mod + t1 turrets is better than t2 turrets without it anyway.. Liang, there is nothing wrong with t1 turrets i use t1 turrets on my crusader for pvp and i am doing very well, solves all my cap problems but i do a bit less dps. (but i dont run out of cap i am stable with all modules running 24/7 and i need that if i want to kill anything bigger than a frigate). the small amount of dps that you get with t2 turrets over the t1 best named is not worth the fitting or the cap problems. if you can fit them and tank the mission without warping out id say fit them if not than get implants/rigs/faction modules. if that still wount solve your problems t1 turrets is the only way really.
Liang Nuren No Salvation Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2009.05.13 17:54:00 - [40] Originally by: Biced have you tried fitting 8 tachyon beams on the abaddon? t2 is over rated in missions i have have the skills for both. BS 5 > t2 turrets in missions. If you are flying a gun boat and have fitting/cap problems cause of the guns, why not downgrade to t1 best named? cause of the 8% more damage? or the t2 ammo that gives you over 100km optimal which you dont need? no one has the spec skill at lvl 5 for missions =p the last 2% are not worth it imo anyway. (rather get something else for this amount of sp but thats just me) one more damage mod + t1 turrets is better than t2 turrets without it anyway.. Comments: - This thread is (largely) about Hybrids (I may have inferred that either from the OP or from the dozen threads he posted that day). Regardless of what may or may not be true with lasers, it **ing most certainly is true with hybrids. Notably, I also believe it's true for lasers. - I don't know anyone that fits 8x Tach on their PVE Abaddon. I do know people that fit 8x Megabeams and 8x Pulse on their Abaddons. - A T2 Pulse Abaddon outdamages (drastically) an tricked out ganked out Arty Mael out to 55km. This is generally more range than is required in most missions I've run. - The Paladin does indeed fit a full rack of T2 Tachs totally without a fitting mod. Compare to the Vargur. - May I suggest fixing your fit if you're unable to fit T2 guns? Ships & Mods is a great place for someone with more experience or better problem solving skills to scratch that itch. - BS5 is generally 5% damage/ROF, Spec 4 is ~8%. Thus you're probably better off with T2 guns than BS5 (this is variable based on ship... for instance it isn't true for the Domi) - The T2 ammo is generally not a consideration when using T2 weapons for missions. Unless you run Pulse, Autos, Cruise, or Torps. D'oh. - There actually are lots of people that do indeed have the spec skills at 5 for missions. Start a Caldari alt some time and ask in the noob corp. You'll be really **ing surprised at the number of 4 year old "alt" characters running with 16M+ SP in missiles... I was anyway. - One more damage mod + T1 turrets is very very rarely the choice you have to make if you fit your ships intelligently. Additionally, in this situation you are better off with faction guns. If faction guns are too rich for your blood, you should consider why you are running missions. Running them to make money? Then fork out the dough for the proper equipment... once they "pay themselves off", it's pure profit. - Oh, and yes, I have tried to fit 8x Tach II's to an Abaddon in Eve. No, I never came up with a fit that I was totally satisfied with. Quote: Liang, there is nothing wrong with t1 turrets i use t1 turrets on my crusader for pvp and i am doing very well, solves all my cap problems but i do a bit less dps. (but i dont run out of cap i am stable with all modules running 24/7 and i need that if i want to kill anything bigger than a frigate). I would argue that you're better off with more damage and resting your guns for a few seconds every few minutes. This serves two purposes: - Still lets you kill big things (you seriously don't ned to AFK in your PVP do you?) - Lets you kill small things (Warrior II's, frigs) that much faster - potentially fast enough to avoid the gank squad that they were bait/tackling for. Quote: the small amount of dps that you get with t2 turrets over the t1 best named is not worth the fitting or the cap problems. if you can fit them and tank the mission without warping out id say fit them if not than get implants/rigs/faction modules. if that still wount solve your problems t1 turrets is the only way really. And that's exactly what I'm saying: if your fit comes down to fitting T1 guns then the rest of your fit is wrong. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
Biced	Posted - 2009.05.13 18:12:00 - [41] Linag, i like you.. but you cant be more wrong. for starters tell all your friends to switch to best named tachs on the abaddon. there is nothing you can do to make my fit better. (all 5) what the hell is the point of giving your turrets a rest if you are for as much dps as you can get? if you dont have the cap to run your turrets your fit is FAIL! sorry but you are the one that were going about more damage, less tank, kill faster point of view. Hybrid turrets means same cap problems and more cpu problems instead of grid. 8% damage more damage + fitting/cap problems or 24/7 running setup with no fitting problems take your pick if you rather have the 8% damage there is nothing wrong with that but there are others who might choose and for a very good reason, to have less damage for better tank and fitting. i mean seriously its just 8%. and dont give me that crap about t2 ammo.
Davinel Lulinvega	Posted - 2009.05.13 18:17:00 - [42] Post your fit and find out.
Biced	Posted - 2009.05.13 18:24:00 - [43] Originally by: Liang Nuren I would argue that you're better off with more damage and resting your guns for a few seconds every few minutes. This serves two purposes: - Still lets you kill big things (you seriously don't ned to AFK in your PVP do you?) - Lets you kill small things (Warrior II's, frigs) that much faster - potentially fast enough to avoid the gank squad that they were bait/tackling for.[/quote Dont want to go too much off topic here but have you actually flown the crusader in pvp solo? have you seen the pittyful em damage that comes out of it if you are at 12km? i have to run 3-2 turrets if i fit t2 its half the damage! or better yet you might lose the point or the mwd and than your target gets away or you die.
Biced	Posted - 2009.05.13 18:27:00 - [44] Edited by: Biced on 13/05/2009 18:31:39 Originally by: Davinel Lulinvega Post your fit and find out. open a new topic and i will *edit or better yet just check in my posts i have posted both my abaddon and crusader fits before might take you a few minuets to find them tho..
Davinel Lulinvega	Posted - 2009.05.13 18:40:00 - [45] This is a thread about whether best named or t2 guns are better. Your fit supposedly demonstrates that best named are better. It belongs here. And I'm not trawling through every post you've ever made to find the damn thing.
Liang Nuren No Salvation Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2009.05.13 18:41:00 - [46] Originally by: Biced for starters tell all your friends to switch to best named tachs on the abaddon. No, because most of my friends hate missions. In that vein, I wouldn't want to frustrate them by asking them to have longer mission times. I might suggest a switch to faction Tachs purely for cap purposes (faction Tachs, IIRC, roughly deal the damage of T2 guns with spec 3). Even then, there's probably something that can be done to improve their fit to make it possible to use T2 guns. Quote: there is nothing you can do to make my fit better. (all 5) Heh, I would say that's false on so many levels. There's always something that can be "improved" in a general sense... and if you're not using T2 guns, there's a very high probability of being improvable. Quote: what the hell is the point of giving your turrets a rest if you are for as much dps as you can get? I already justified this: more damage against smaller targets (it's not like they're gonna tank you), and manage your cap against larger targets for similar total DPS. Seems like the difference big difference is not being able to AFK while you have someone tackled. Quote: if you dont have the cap to run your turrets your fit is FAIL! sorry but you are the one that were going about more damage, less tank, kill faster point of view. I never said you didn't have the cap to run it... I said you had to manage your cap and the difference against smaller targets (and in PVP, T2 ammo) was worth the switch to T2 guns. Quote: Hybrid turrets means same cap problems and more cpu problems instead of grid. No, they don't. The general idea of missioning with hybrids is either to run 425's and range tank (AB, single LAR) or 350's (better tracking) and take it like a man. The likely candidates for 425's are the Rokh (kite tank + 50km antimatter) and the Mega (tracking bonus can turn 425's into "better 350's"). Everyone else is generally going to use 350's for the tracking. Additionally, 350's make it very trivial to fit a reasonable mission tank, and it's trivial to fit a full rack of 350's. Quote: 8% damage more damage + fitting/cap problems or 24/7 running setup with no fitting problems take your pick if you rather have the 8% damage there is nothing wrong with that but there are others who might choose and for a very good reason, to have less damage for better tank and fitting. Comments: - You don't need to be able to run 24/7 with all modules (including guns) on. There are frequently natural times when you're not spamming your guns that your cap will go up. In general, I tend to benchmark cap use in EFT (for missions) with 2-3 guns off. - Fitting problems mean you're probably trying to do something dumb with the rest of your fit - particularly with Hybrids as explained above. - As explained above, sacrificing damage for tank is generally a bad idea. Of course, there's a certain amount of tank required for any mission, but it's surprisingly low if you bring the Deeps. Quote: i mean seriously its just 8%. and dont give me that crap about t2 ammo. 8% is more than an 8% improvement in mission times - regardless of T2 ammo (such as for pulse on the pulse apoc). Your choice to waste time when you mission. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
Liang Nuren No Salvation Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2009.05.13 18:46:00 - [47] Originally by: Biced Dont want to go too much off topic here but have you actually flown the crusader in pvp solo? have you seen the pittyful em damage that comes out of it if you are at 12km? i have to run 3-2 turrets if i fit t2 its half the damage! or better yet you might lose the point or the mwd and than your target gets away or you die. I've fought a crusader solo, and it took my MSE Stiletto to hull in the short time it took me to MWD back to the gate and click "jump". I have no sympathy for the idea of it having "pathetic" EM damage. Also, I have no sympathy for the idea of EM damage itself being "pathetic" as it's quite frequently the best damage type to use (against shields, which compose more than 50% of the PVP fits out there, and against tri-hardened armor ships). That said, the only cap using 2 mid ship I've flown into combat was a Blatalyst... and cap wasn't a problem. I have flown Apocs, Abaddons, Geddons, Zealots, Curses, Pilgrims, etc. The same concept applies at the larger levels too (resting the guns on your zealot occasionally is far better than having a permarun fit, IME). -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
LordThyGod	Posted - 2009.05.13 18:52:00 - [48] it seems like the extra damage added by t2 guns isnt that much, when you look at an over all increase 10% is a good bit but not overwhelming, but what you should really be looking at is damage increase over and beyond the rep of the npc. While its a 10% overall increase it could be a 30% increase over the tanks on harder bs, though honestly i dint like the extra cap usage(cap boosting rokh, i dotn even wanna hear anti cap booster for missions rant, i'll out run most ravens out there and complete every lv4 there is solo) until spec 4, and with spec 5 worlds better than proto's(i do love proto's the carried me for a year)
Biced	Posted - 2009.05.13 18:59:00 - [49] about the crusader you dont know what you are talking about do you? i dont use t2 ammo even if i fit t2 turrets.. i used beams and faction ammo. beast neamed dual beams x4 (faction ammo) mwd, point 2x od 1x nano 1x cpr. try this out with t2 turrets and see what happens =p abaddon 8 best named tachs ab 3x Cap recharger LAR II, RCU II, heat sink II, 3Xhardeners,cpr 3% grid implant and 3xccc rigs. try fitting t2 tachs on the abaddon.. your cap wount last more than 5min. before you replay, try this out or ask one of your friends.. and i am not running any mission atm either. i used to and i know what i am talking about. all the small stuff, BCs and smaller die in 3 volleys at 60km, (frigs just 2-3 turrts at 90km). and stop saying the same thing over and over again.. you are wrong about the crusader. and about the cap management thing. doesnt matter what you have in theory it just doesnt work the way you think it is. and more important is that with t1 turrets you can fit more damage mods, dont forget that 1 damage mod adds more dps than the spec skill at 5.
Davinel Lulinvega	Posted - 2009.05.13 19:00:00 - [50] Originally by: LordThyGod it seems like the extra damage added by t2 guns isnt that much, when you look at an over all increase 10% is a good bit but not overwhelming, but what you should really be looking at is damage increase over and beyond the rep of the npc. While its a 10% overall increase it could be a 30% increase over the tanks on harder bs, though honestly i dint like the extra cap usage(cap boosting rokh, i dotn even wanna hear anti cap booster for missions rant, i'll out run most ravens out there and complete every lv4 there is solo) until spec 4, and with spec 5 worlds better than proto's(i do love proto's the carried me for a year) This man speaks the truth. Also remember 10% rof bonus is actually more than 10% dps increase. 11.11%(repeating) to be precise.
Biced	Posted - 2009.05.13 19:07:00 - [51] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Biced Dont want to go too much off topic here but have you actually flown the crusader in pvp solo? have you seen the pittyful em damage that comes out of it if you are at 12km? i have to run 3-2 turrets if i fit t2 its half the damage! or better yet you might lose the point or the mwd and than your target gets away or you die. I've fought a crusader solo, and it took my MSE Stiletto to hull in the short time it took me to MWD back to the gate and click "jump". I have no sympathy for the idea of it having "pathetic" EM damage. Also, I have no sympathy for the idea of EM damage itself being "pathetic" as it's quite frequently the best damage type to use (against shields, which compose more than 50% of the PVP fits out there, and against tri-hardened armor ships). That said, the only cap using 2 mid ship I've flown into combat was a Blatalyst... and cap wasn't a problem. I have flown Apocs, Abaddons, Geddons, Zealots, Curses, Pilgrims, etc. The same concept applies at the larger levels too (resting the guns on your zealot occasionally is far better than having a permarun fit, IME). -Liang Fly a crusader with beams.. smaller ships means more cap management every bit counts. and dont compare cap management on ceptors with HACs and BSs its not even close to being the same thing. and t2 turrets give you like 6 more dps over the t1 best named. not even worth considering fitting t2 turrets for the cap problems you get along with them. and taking another ceptor to hull is really easy regardless of the damage type you are dealing. so dont tell me the damage a crusader deals is so awesome cause you got into hull in a few seconds. try killing a plated t1 cruiser with it and tell me how it goes or better yet 2 t1 cruisers.
Davinel Lulinvega	Posted - 2009.05.13 19:07:00 - [52] Originally by: Biced about the crusader you dont know what you are talking about do you? i dont use t2 ammo even if i fit t2 turrets.. i used beams and faction ammo. beast neamed dual beams x4 (faction ammo) mwd, point 2x od 1x nano 1x cpr. try this out with t2 turrets and see what happens =p abaddon 8 best named tachs ab 3x Cap recharger LAR II, RCU II, heat sink II, 3Xhardeners,cpr 3% grid implant and 3xccc rigs. try fitting t2 tachs on the abaddon.. your cap wount last more than 5min. before you replay, try this out or ask one of your friends.. and i am not running any mission atm either. i used to and i know what i am talking about. all the small stuff, BCs and smaller die in 3 volleys at 60km, (frigs just 2-3 turrts at 90km). and stop saying the same thing over and over again.. you are wrong about the crusader. and about the cap management thing. doesnt matter what you have in theory it just doesnt work the way you think it is. and more important is that with t1 turrets you can fit more damage mods, dont forget that 1 damage mod adds more dps than the spec skill at 5. Apparently somebody's never heard of scorch.
Biced	Posted - 2009.05.13 19:10:00 - [53] Originally by: LordThyGod it seems like the extra damage added by t2 guns isnt that much, when you look at an over all increase 10% is a good bit but not overwhelming, but what you should really be looking at is damage increase over and beyond the rep of the npc. While its a 10% overall increase it could be a 30% increase over the tanks on harder bs, though honestly i dint like the extra cap usage(cap boosting rokh, i dotn even wanna hear anti cap booster for missions rant, i'll out run most ravens out there and complete every lv4 there is solo) until spec 4, and with spec 5 worlds better than proto's(i do love proto's the carried me for a year) yes while you can fit t1 turrets and one more damage mod and have 10% in damage and 10% in rof.. what will you choose then?
Biced	Posted - 2009.05.13 19:13:00 - [54] Originally by: Davinel Lulinvega Originally by: Biced about the crusader you dont know what you are talking about do you? i dont use t2 ammo even if i fit t2 turrets.. i used beams and faction ammo. beast neamed dual beams x4 (faction ammo) mwd, point 2x od 1x nano 1x cpr. try this out with t2 turrets and see what happens =p abaddon 8 best named tachs ab 3x Cap recharger LAR II, RCU II, heat sink II, 3Xhardeners,cpr 3% grid implant and 3xccc rigs. try fitting t2 tachs on the abaddon.. your cap wount last more than 5min. before you replay, try this out or ask one of your friends.. and i am not running any mission atm either. i used to and i know what i am talking about. all the small stuff, BCs and smaller die in 3 volleys at 60km, (frigs just 2-3 turrts at 90km). and stop saying the same thing over and over again.. you are wrong about the crusader. and about the cap management thing. doesnt matter what you have in theory it just doesnt work the way you think it is. and more important is that with t1 turrets you can fit more damage mods, dont forget that 1 damage mod adds more dps than the spec skill at 5. Apparently somebody's never heard of scorch. Apparently somebody's never got into a 1 on 1 ceptor fight in a crusader. 55~dps at 14km > you falloff scorch. that will miss twice as much.
Liang Nuren No Salvation Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2009.05.13 19:38:00 - [55] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 13/05/2009 19:39:11 Quote: abaddon 8 best named tachs ab 3x Cap recharger LAR II, RCU II, heat sink II, 3Xhardeners,cpr 3% grid implant and 3xccc rigs. try fitting t2 tachs on the abaddon.. your cap wount last more than 5min. all the small stuff, BCs and smaller die in 3 volleys at 60km, (frigs just 2-3 turrts at 90km). Comments: - IMO, you're better off with a Paladin with 4 Tach II's. - You might consider the "standard 7 Tach setup" referenced everywhere. I'll let the people that fly Abaddons frequently comment on which is a better setup. - If you insist on staying with the 8x Tach Abaddon, I highly recommend switching for faction guns as I've mentioned so many times. Once they pay themselves off (which is fairly fast, TBH) they simply make more profit, faster. They're an investment, not bling. - Consider a faction heatsink. These pay themselves off quickly too. - 5 minutes of cap is plenty sufficient for the rest of my ships (including ships that require cap to fire)... but I can understand why that might be troublesome on a laser ship where your ammo is effectively cap. - Nobody is doubting that you can do the job with T1 guns. I think what's in question is if it's the best way to do it. Quote: beast neamed dual beams x4 (faction ammo) mwd, point 2x od 1x nano 1x cpr. try this out with t2 turrets and see what happens =p and stop saying the same thing over and over again.. you are wrong about the crusader. and about the cap management thing. doesnt matter what you have in theory it just doesnt work the way you think it is. and more important is that with t1 turrets you can fit more damage mods, dont forget that 1 damage mod adds more dps than the spec skill at 5. Comments: - If you're fighting something big enough that you need to run your guns 24/7, your DPS doesn't really matter. Thus, IME (which isn't really extensive with small ships, but is still more than your average joe), you're better off focusing on being able to gank small stuff quickly. If you feel the need to apply your DPS to the primary (I would... I know it because I've done it :P) then it's not a crime to not have a 24/7 setup. - In the spirit of being able to gank small stuff faster, I'd forsake Beams in favor of Pulse and Scorch. - I don't personally fly Saders (as disclaimed above), but I do fly blaster small craft fairly frequently, and T2 guns are not optional. Judging from the other experienced Amarr pilots I know, they feel similarly. -Liang Ed: Also, what is the title of this thread seeing as how you waltzed into a thread about T2 Railguns and started telling us about cap problems with T2 Tachs... ? -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
Davinel Lulinvega	Posted - 2009.05.13 19:40:00 - [56] Lol ok. You think a 3km buffer means anything in an interceptor duel? And beams are going to be able to more than scratch another interceptor with their terrible tracking? Any competent crusader pilot is going to manually fly, get you in pulse range, and annihilate you. You've either never done it before or only fought idiots. Although considering the kind of people that usually rush for interceptors, I wouldn't be surprised if it was the latter.
Sophia Truthspeaker Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2009.05.13 19:45:00 - [57] Haven't flown a rail bs yet, so no idea, although I would probably lean towards t2 as soon as possible. But the discussion with the Amarr ships... I am normally flying a Paladin in lvl 4, and bevor that an Abaddon. Always used MegaPulse in those. And with those two T2 guns are great, because of Scorch, simply as that. Longest distance orbit is I think one of the gurista ships with 55km. Faction and microwave pulse take too long to kill in that range, scorch has no problems. I could switch to beams or tachs, but as my tractor range is 40km anyway, I prefer the rats to come to me to get killed. While I concede the point, that faction tachs can be a reasonable alternativ, I really doubt best named is for anything except the time you need to bridge from T1 weapons to T2. And cap stability is not a thing I am looking for in a pvp ship... everytime I try something like that, I have to remove the active tank again and slap myself for fitting it. _________ Proposed Mining and Attribute Changes The truth is out there
Biced	Posted - 2009.05.13 19:51:00 - [58] i said it is going to go off topic really fast =p lol anyway nvm that lets agree disagree shell we? how did it go to amarr ships is cause this is what i fly and know about really well. should not be that much of a difference with rails. pretty much same fitting and cap problems.. might be wrong there. and about the abaddon and the crusader i can tell you this much i fly both ships for a very long time now there is not much i havent tried with them. all my setups and everything i have said here comes from in eve experience and situations that i have gotten myself in while flying these ships. so even if what you say sounds good to you in theory consider trying it in game. (might change your mind)
Biced	Posted - 2009.05.13 19:54:00 - [59] Originally by: Davinel Lulinvega Lol ok. You think a 3km buffer means anything in an interceptor duel? And beams are going to be able to more than scratch another interceptor with their terrible tracking? Any competent crusader pilot is going to manually fly, get you in pulse range, and annihilate you. You've either never done it before or only fought idiots. Although considering the kind of people that usually rush for interceptors, I wouldn't be surprised if it was the latter. i can hit you with perfect shots at 18km orbit... by the time you get in pulse range you are already in a pod... crusaders are cheap try this out with one of your friends or something.
Sophia Truthspeaker Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2009.05.13 19:56:00 - [60] Originally by: Biced i said it is going to go off topic really fast =p lol anyway nvm that lets agree disagree shell we? Agreed, else it would get boring. Quote: should not be that much of a difference with rails. pretty much same fitting and cap problems.. might be wrong there. As I mentioned above I don't fly rail boats. But I think a big difference is in the short range guns. I think blasters can't hit a barn door while inside the barn because of the short range. Pulses on the other hand have reasonable reach, so its easier to reach medium ranges with them. Scorch makes a big difference there, extending useful dps by a whole lot, especially for missions. _________ The truth is out there
Liang Nuren No Salvation Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2009.05.13 20:01:00 - [61] Originally by: Biced i said it is going to go off topic really fast =p lol anyway nvm that lets agree disagree shell we? ;-) Quote: how did it go to amarr ships is cause this is what i fly and know about really well. should not be that much of a difference with rails. pretty much same fitting and cap problems.. might be wrong there. You know how you fly Amarr? I fly Minmatar and Gallente/Caldari Hybrid ships. T2 guns are 100% not optional on any fit that's not a "Off The T1 Assembly Line" cheap-o fit for leeroying when drunk off my ass. And I really mean it... 100% not optional. T2 guns > BS5 excepting the Domi, and then it's merely close. Quote: and about the abaddon and the crusader i can tell you this much i fly both ships for a very long time now there is not much i havent tried with them. all my setups and everything i have said here comes from in eve experience and situations that i have gotten myself in while flying these ships. so even if what you say sounds good to you in theory consider trying it in game. (might change your mind) TBH the only thing flying laser ships would do currently is make me hate myself for caving in to the FOTM. Once they get nerfed I'll train them again. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
Biced	Posted - 2009.05.13 20:33:00 - [62] lasers already take more grid and cap than any other turret.. i think its enough of a drawback but that is another topic again. anyway there is no such thing as best setup every thing in eve is situational and its kinda stupid that both of us are trying to force our opinions on each other. glad we can settle this with a smile.
Sasuke Ichiro Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.05.14 01:36:00 - [63] Originally by: Kazang You are forgetting that the large hybrid skill gives you 5% per level, then you get your 2% per level from the spec skill, which you should train to 4 if you plan on using railguns much. Giving you 13% more damage with a t2 over meta 4. T2 large hybrids also opens up t2 ammo without which you cannot effectively snipe with railguns. But seriously 13% is a lot, if you're just running missions thats about 5 mins faster mission'ing per hour if you into that kind of grinding, otherwise bigger numbers on screen, more isk made and more isk saved from cheaper guns, that can only be a good thing? The question is simple anyway, do you want to be better skilled at using rails? If yes train to 5, if no train something else......... This pretty much...
Liang Nuren No Salvation Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2009.05.14 02:07:00 - [64] Originally by: Biced lasers already take more grid and cap than any other turret.. i think its enough of a drawback but that is another topic again. Heh, ya. One I've almost had my fill of. :p Quote: anyway there is no such thing as best setup every thing in eve is situational and its kinda stupid that both of us are trying to force our opinions on each other. Too true - there are so many things that are situational. Mission performance seems (to me) to rarely be one - though admittedly it varies per mission. The new system for auto-fit changing is a huge boon! Quote: glad we can settle this with a smile. Si, me too. :) -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
Emperor Ryan Amarr Imperial Syndicate Forces	Posted - 2009.05.14 13:03:00 - [65] Originally by: Angelos Originally by: Destoya Believe me, you need t2 guns if you want to PVP. 10% damage is a lot more than you would think, and the SP's are hardly wasted (if you want to save time, Railgun specialization IV is a shorter way to go) Well ATM I'm not doing PVP. And even if I was, the extra 8-10% is maybe 20dps? Unless I go sniper and use T2 ammo I'm still having a difficult time spending training time on T2. You clearly Don't understand How this works do you. All skills apply to Each gun, You have a 7 turret Mega, thats a 10% damage increase to each gun, so overall that would be maybe 20 dps more PER GUN which makes it 140dps more. Now 20 is not the correct amount as of course it depends on gun size, and ships built in bonuses. But respectfully 10% is a alot more then you think, I'm never regretting training Medium Pulse spec V, because all the damage bonus don't stack. and the t2 ammo does have its advantages. - Emperor
Dahak2150 Rowdy Ramblers	Posted - 2009.05.14 15:48:00 - [66] Edited by: Dahak2150 on 14/05/2009 15:54:58 Edited by: Dahak2150 on 14/05/2009 15:49:18 So seeing as this discussion has spread beyond the scope of the OP... Here's a comparison between T2 Megabeam and T1 best named Tachyon on my old mission Abaddon setup. I've moved beyond it at this point, but that comparison is later on. Tach vs Mega As you can see, the setups are virtually identical in their performance. The only real difference is the tracking of Tachyons, which is slightly lower. This is somewhat unsurprising as Tachyons are considered "4th tier" weapons anyway, with only a slight increase in damage. However, when one wishes to bring range into the equation... Tach vs Mega long-range The T2 Megabeams vastly outperform the Tachyons. If one wishes to have equivalent damage with the Tachyons, one must drop to AN Infrared, and have an optimal of 92km, only 73.6% of the Megabeams. It should also be noted that current Jita price for best-named Tachyon is 6.8 million, and T2 Megabeam only 2.8. You're paying 243% of the price for lower performance. Now, moving on to bigger and better things, as many frequent missioners will. I'll be using a Nightmare for this comparison, although it is quite similar to a Paladin, which one you use depends on whether or not you want to salvage. Now it would be silly to fit Megabeams on such a ship, as it is never in need of the spare grid. Comparison below. T1 Tach vs T2 Tach So not that big a difference. Little bit of damage here, little bit of cap there. Price enters into the equation again though, with the same figures as above. T1 Tach is 6.8, T2 is 2.8, same as T2 Megabeam. 243% shows up again. It should also be noted that they have the same sustained tank, so the cap matters little. When we switch to long range, again the difference is quite clear. T1 Tach vs T2 Tach long Less range and less damage. In order to get the same range, T1 needs to switch to AN Infrared again, which only has a 92km optimal, 67% of the T2. And it would just be silly not to use T2 for pulses, after all, Scorch can determine whether or not you can even finish a mission (for example, Vengeance, with those boss NPCs that orbit at crazy ranges and tank quite well). T2 has become the standard for a reason. Better price, better damage, better flexibility. Edit: By the way, here's a comparison between best-named 425s and T2. As you can see, the T2 wins, and is cheaper to boot.
Ulstan	Posted - 2009.05.14 17:15:00 - [67] Biced, as far as missioning goes, you want the most dps you can possibly have and not have to warp out. When I am thinking up a fit for a mission ship, I always start with the 3x damage mods, full rack of appropriate weapons, and then see what kind of tank I can fit in there. Sure, in some mission rooms, you might have to overheat for a little while until you've thinned the pack out a bit, but increase in dps leads to a non linear decrease in missioning time, becuase you're trying to surpass the NPC BS rep amounts. 10% increase in damage could be a 20% increase in how much damage 'gets through'. The best way to get the biggest bang for your buck for tanking, is to know exactly what the triggers are for each spawn. I've found very, very few missions with spawns that are difficult for a moderate tank on a BS with good skills. TL:DR: if I'm having cap problems, I am going to sacrifice tank instead of dps. Sacrificing dps hurts you 100% of the time. Every single rat you shoot at takes longer to kill. Sacrificing tank only hurts you if you wind up having to warp out
Liang Nuren No Salvation Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2009.05.14 17:24:00 - [68] Originally by: Ulstan Biced, as far as missioning goes, you want the most dps you can possibly have and not have to warp out. When I am thinking up a fit for a mission ship, I always start with the 3x damage mods, full rack of appropriate weapons, and then see what kind of tank I can fit in there. Sure, in some mission rooms, you might have to overheat for a little while until you've thinned the pack out a bit, but increase in dps leads to a non linear decrease in missioning time, becuase you're trying to surpass the NPC BS rep amounts. 10% increase in damage could be a 20% increase in how much damage 'gets through'. The best way to get the biggest bang for your buck for tanking, is to know exactly what the triggers are for each spawn. I've found very, very few missions with spawns that are difficult for a moderate tank on a BS with good skills. TL:DR: if I'm having cap problems, I am going to sacrifice tank instead of dps. Sacrificing dps hurts you 100% of the time. Every single rat you shoot at takes longer to kill. Sacrificing tank only hurts you if you wind up having to warp out Eh, he has a point about cap and fittings (Tachs are hard), but it just turns out that 7 T2 Tachs does actually outdamage 8 best named tachs (rather significantly because of the savings in fittings). It takes quite a bit more cap. But if you switch to faction tachs, you get the same cap use and equivalent of spec 3 on the guns. IMO, I'd go with faction tachs where I could... it's fairly reasonable (IIRC this is the fit, I left the paper at home): Abaddon 7x AN Tach, Tractor 4x Cap Recharger II LAR II, 3x Hardener II, 2x AN HS, CPR 3x CCC Gets... Erm, 690 DPS vs the 580 from the fit listed above. If the AB was important, you can drop down to T2 megabeams and fit an AB, but I don't tend to find alot of missions where an AB is particularly handy unless you're trying to range tank. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
Dahak2150 Rowdy Ramblers	Posted - 2009.05.15 00:03:00 - [69] Faction Tachs bad. They don't save on PG, they are still outdamaged by their T2 counterparts, can't use the ammo, and are going on contracts for 75 million isk. For the price of three AN Tachyons you can have a second Abaddon, fully fit. 525 million for a set of 7, half the price of a Nightmare.
Liang Nuren No Salvation Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2009.05.15 00:16:00 - [70] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 15/05/2009 00:17:55 Originally by: Dahak2150 Faction Tachs bad. They don't save on PG, they are still outdamaged by their T2 counterparts, can't use the ammo, and are going on contracts for 75 million isk. For the price of three AN Tachyons you can have a second Abaddon, fully fit. 525 million for a set of 7, half the price of a Nightmare. Comments: - Cost isn't really an issue. The theory is that your weapons are simple profit generating machines and don't depreciate in value much. Thus, you could buy a set of faction tachs, mission with them for 6 months, and then sell them for roughly what you bought them for. The extra ISK you made (by virtue of having more damage) is "free". - The T2 ammo isn't really an issue, as was mentioned before. I don't see you many people mentioning using Aurora or Gleam in missions, and I know that I don't use Quake/Tremor or Javelin/Spike. - The main savings in faction Tachs, as mentioned, is in capacitor - which theoretically lets you fit another damage mod instead of another cap mod. Faction guns with 2 damage mods > T2 guns with 1 damage mod, and faction guns are simply flat better than best named (they are roughly equivalent to T2 with Spec skill at 3). - The Nightmare requires Caldari BS skills, which are somewhat rare. The Paladin requires other skills which are somewhat rare. - I wouldn't recommend faction hybrids unless you simply don't have skills for T2. -Liang Ed: Moar Stuff -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
Dahak2150 Rowdy Ramblers	Posted - 2009.05.15 00:46:00 - [71] Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 15/05/2009 00:17:55 Originally by: Dahak2150 Faction Tachs bad. They don't save on PG, they are still outdamaged by their T2 counterparts, can't use the ammo, and are going on contracts for 75 million isk. For the price of three AN Tachyons you can have a second Abaddon, fully fit. 525 million for a set of 7, half the price of a Nightmare. Comments: - Cost isn't really an issue. The theory is that your weapons are simple profit generating machines and don't depreciate in value much. Thus, you could buy a set of faction tachs, mission with them for 6 months, and then sell them for roughly what you bought them for. The extra ISK you made (by virtue of having more damage) is "free". - The T2 ammo isn't really an issue, as was mentioned before. I don't see you many people mentioning using Aurora or Gleam in missions, and I know that I don't use Quake/Tremor or Javelin/Spike. - The main savings in faction Tachs, as mentioned, is in capacitor - which theoretically lets you fit another damage mod instead of another cap mod. Faction guns with 2 damage mods > T2 guns with 1 damage mod, and faction guns are simply flat better than best named (they are roughly equivalent to T2 with Spec skill at 3). - The Nightmare requires Caldari BS skills, which are somewhat rare. The Paladin requires other skills which are somewhat rare. - I wouldn't recommend faction hybrids unless you simply don't have skills for T2. I use Aurora plenty enough to warrant mentioning it. Makes the Blockade even easier and faster, swatting ships as soon as they spawn. Also, I posted fits above that work fine, and don't have any problems with being short of cap. They also didn't sacrifice a second damage mod. As for skills being rare, that doesn't make a whole lot of sense. They're right there on the market, for anyone to buy.
UMEE Gunship Diplomacy	Posted - 2009.05.15 19:18:00 - [72] i have a sentry domi...drone damage will be maxed soon. id like to supplement drone dps with some guns. i dont plan on flying the mega/rokh, ever. do you think it's worth it for me to train t2 large hybrids, or just stick with best t1 named? ive a lot of other things to train.
Liang Nuren No Salvation Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2009.05.16 03:12:00 - [73] Originally by: UMEE i have a sentry domi...drone damage will be maxed soon. id like to supplement drone dps with some guns. i dont plan on flying the mega/rokh, ever. do you think it's worth it for me to train t2 large hybrids, or just stick with best t1 named? ive a lot of other things to train. T2 hybrids are pure sex on the Domi - for missions and for PVP -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org

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