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256 Titans - Balancing needed?

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Mystafyre Caldari Malevolent Intentions Dark Solar Empire	Posted - 2009.05.05 11:38:00 - [1] So there is thread in CAOD where this nice fellow is keeping track on titans in game. Currently number is over 250 (confirmed) and it's pretty ridiculous in my opinnion. My wish list is, * Titans should cost more * Titans should be stronger * Titans should be deadlier * There should be less Titans But then there is the problem... We would have 250 stronger and deadlier Titans if CCP would change them. However, something should be done with supercapitals, situation isn't good for anyone I think. Problem is that we will have more and more pilots able to fund Titan and actually fly one. My suggestion is, * Increase build cost * Make build and research times longer That's just one way, but sure there isn't easy answer. That would make them harder to replace if lost. But that's just one way of doing it. What do you think? Is current situation balanced?
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2009.05.05 11:40:00 - [2] simple sollution : blow them up all of them , pls do this ccp
EFT Warrior	Posted - 2009.05.05 11:46:00 - [3] Doomsday requires siege mode maybe? I think that would make titans too suicidal, but maybe decrease the raw damage a Titan does on a doomsday out of siege, but increase it while in siege. It's a refinement on my idea of allowing a Titan to fit a siege mode, and it has the effect of: 1) Directly nerfing the doomsday effect. If it can't one-pop battleship fleets now you require multiple titans (a tactic already employed), or you need the old damage of a DD. Which brings me to: 2) A buff to titans, but at a higher risk to the titan itself. A titan in siege mode could pull off a ridiculously powerful doomsday blast, more powerful than its current form, but it will be sitting there for the next 10 minutes in siege mode. Of course you get the added bonus of a huge tank and damage multiplier, which may encourage more people to bring a titan to a POS bash as anti-enemy support (I figure most titans outfitted with a siege module would do in the range of 6000-12000 DPS and could tank up to 30,000, varying on ship and mods).
Tippia Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2009.05.05 11:50:00 - [4] If I may edit it a bit… Originally by: Mystafyre My wish list is, Titans should cost more Titans should be stronger Titans should be deadlier There should be less Titans Here's the problem: #2+3 and #4 are mutually exclusive, no matter how much you fiddle with #1. If you want to achieve #4, you need to go the opposite way with #2 and 3 — make them more fragile and less powerful. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Gaius Sejanus Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2009.05.05 11:52:00 - [5] This is easy. Make it so that in order to construct a titan, you have to throw a T2 BPO (any will do) into the recipe mix, and the BPO is consumed in the process.
Sir Substance Minmatar The Empire Nation Dead Mans Hand	Posted - 2009.05.05 11:59:00 - [6] i mentioned on the F&I forum the possibility of splitting the single dread into three, one POS killer, one that does both POS killing and ship killing (current) and one ship killer. make the POS killer and the ship killer better at their job the the normal one, and you might have a solution for lessening supercaps. not only is it easier to take down live titans, its also easier to take down titans under construction.
Juliette DuBois	Posted - 2009.05.05 12:05:00 - [7] Problem isn¦t that current capitals are not enough to kill titan. It¦s doomsday and fast warp in, DD warp out thing (with multiple titans). No non-capital ship fleet lives through that. Single titans have died and continue to die to smart gangs/fleets. Honestly, cat has been out of the bag so long already. Only way to reign titan production now is to nerf them so people don¦t see them as so good value for their isk (hah did I actually write that ^^) :p
Esmenet Gallente	Posted - 2009.05.05 12:11:00 - [8] Edited by: Esmenet on 05/05/2009 12:11:44 Imo the main problem is multiple titans combined with the incredible defensive advantages of sov. Its illustrated very well in the bob vs the rest "battle" for delve. And yea this is my sig. Real PVP'ers only use f1.
Sidus Isaacs Gallente	Posted - 2009.05.05 12:19:00 - [9] Edited by: Sidus Isaacs on 05/05/2009 12:19:37 Originally by: Gaius Sejanus This is easy. Make it so that in order to construct a titan, you have to throw a T2 BPO (any will do) into the recipe mix, and the BPO is consumed in the process. What a silly idea. Titans are silly ships, DDDs should not have benn introduced in the first place. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
Mira O'karr Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2009.05.05 12:42:00 - [10] the problem is not taking down the titans, it is catching them. this is where the fix needs to occur. apart from pilot mistake or spy you cant really catch them. (i suppose that goes for all ships). maybe make them probable while cloaked.. RP it as too large of a signature to be covered by a cloak effectively?
Benedikt Miloslav	Posted - 2009.05.05 12:43:00 - [11] Edited by: Benedikt Miloslav on 05/05/2009 12:44:11 250 titans at 80 bil is what... 20 trillion ISK? Isn't the economy at like 300 trillion ISK right now? That and 1 titan per 1000 people doesn't seem too bad to me. Sure, I'd like to see less titans, but unless something drastic is done, things like this are to be expected. The game keeps growing, and with it, so do the amount of ISK/resources available.
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2009.05.05 12:43:00 - [12] Make it more of a logistics ship. With a clone vat bay for 100 people at least + room for 100 battleships (or more preferably) + repair services. (Or something like that) So it will certainly be usefull (instant repairs when damaged, if (pod)killed you can in a few minutes be back in the fight, and we still got its jump bridge). But it wont be the fun killer like it is now (oh look, sub capital ships -> double doomsday -> well that was the fight). --------------------------------------------- Originally by: Neth'Rae Military experts are calling this a troll.
Xornicon Altair Woopatang Primary.	Posted - 2009.05.05 13:20:00 - [13] It was inevitable that this many titans would eventually exist. The only thing that CCP can really do to solve this without seriously invalidating the amount of resources and effort and time that alliances have put into building the titans is to offer better solutions to counter them. Possibly the addition of a super-capital class ship that is to a dreadnought what a mothership is to a carrier. The ability to target and disable specific parts of a ship could be another solution: if a Titan shows up on the field, target it's DDD and disable it. But when it comes right down to it, the calls to remove, destroy, or disable the titans that already exist in the game would be a serious detriment to the game as a whole, and to the alliances who work so hard to build them. Now for the reality check: Let's assume that there's 250,000 players in EVE. I'm sure this number is not accurate, but, for the sake of argument, we'll use that. If there's 250, or, hell, we'll round up and say 300, titans in the game, that's only 0.12% of the population in possession of these ships. Is it really that big of a deal?
Cynel	Posted - 2009.05.05 13:25:00 - [14] What would happen if titans... * would not be able to DD in cyno jammed systems * would be able to jump to covert cyno beacons I am no expert in titans and the stuff, but what I am aiming for... how much damage can a titan dish out, say, to a cyno jammer? Would it be realistic for a single titan to kill a cyno jammer in 5-10 minutes while surviving the POS defenses?
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.05.05 13:28:00 - [15] Originally by: Mystafyre So there is thread in CAOD where this nice fellow is keeping track on titans in game. Currently number is over 250 (confirmed) and it's pretty ridiculous in my opinnion. My wish list is, * Titans should cost more * Titans should be stronger * Titans should be deadlier * There should be less Titans But then there is the problem... We would have 250 stronger and deadlier Titans if CCP would change them. However, something should be done with supercapitals, situation isn't good for anyone I think. Problem is that we will have more and more pilots able to fund Titan and actually fly one. My suggestion is, * Increase build cost * Make build and research times longer That's just one way, but sure there isn't easy answer. That would make them harder to replace if lost. But that's just one way of doing it. What do you think? Is current situation balanced? Titans should have a very large upkeep requirement (say a billion a month)
Kingwood Amarr Yawn Corp	Posted - 2009.05.05 13:47:00 - [16] I remember posting about this more than a year ago. The general consensus was "Titans are fine, nub. They'll never ever grow to substantial numbers". I saved that thread on my harddisk, btw. I'm just waiting for one of them to complain about titans.
Abrazzar	Posted - 2009.05.05 13:51:00 - [17] Amount of supercapitals should be restricted by the sovereignty you hold. One Titan per full region under your sov. One Mothership per full constellation under sov. Supercapitals that are not aligned to a region/constellation cannot online any module or launch drones though they are still able to jump around. -------- Ideas for: Mining
Ak'athra J'ador Amarr Can't Decide Balance of Judgment	Posted - 2009.05.05 13:58:00 - [18] Edited by: Ak''athra J''ador on 05/05/2009 13:59:20 i would go with the upkeep idea. make them cost something every month. though it would be avoidable by simply having them inactive, and only activating them once they are needed. sure they would stay active for the whole moth, but that would be it. what bothers me the most is the problem of catching them. they simply warp in, DD, and warp out. they shouldn't be cloakable, and it should be easier to catch them. thing is we are trying to fix something broken. Titan never should have gotten the DD. it should have been a logistics ship. repair bonuses, fleet bonuses, and the ability to carry crazy amount of battleships. you get killed or poded. go to/wake up at the titan, and pew pew some more. eve wars are isk wars. the one with more resources wins (spies and so on excluded). by having a titan on the field a fleet of 100 people could actually be a fleet of 200. i don't know, maybe its a bad idea, just anything but the DD :( there are more then enough of ideas out there to fix them...that's not really the problem. question is, will the be fixed?
Shadowsword Epsilon Lyr Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2009.05.05 14:27:00 - [19] Edited by: Shadowsword on 05/05/2009 14:31:43 Realist way to balance titans (and MS, while we're at it, they need a boost): - Remove possibility of fitting a cloak. - Make motherships able to use jump bridges. Titans will be less interesting if they don't have a monopoly on them. - Remove doomsdays. A large AOE killing weapon is heresy in a MMO game where death hurt (a bit). - Change the doomsday skill effect so it give a large damage bonus (like, +200%/level) to racial XL turrets and launchers. Firepower equivalent to 3 dreads in siege mode when fitted with 7 XL guns would be fine. Titans would have to make choices between firepower and utility slots, which is good, and would also make them more vulnerable to tackling, with less smartbombs and neuts. - Give Titans a resist bonus of 7.5%/level, they won't be used at all on the field if they go Boom after only one minute of focused fire. ------------------------------------------
Atsuko Ratu Caldari Interstellar eXodus	Posted - 2009.05.05 15:15:00 - [20] Originally by: Shadowsword Edited by: Shadowsword on 05/05/2009 14:31:43 Realist way to balance titans (and MS, while we're at it, they need a boost): - Remove possibility of fitting a cloak. - Make motherships able to use jump bridges. Titans will be less interesting if they don't have a monopoly on them. - Remove doomsdays. A large AOE killing weapon is heresy in a MMO game where death hurt (a bit). - Change the doomsday skill effect so it give a large damage bonus (like, +200%/level) to racial XL turrets and launchers. Firepower equivalent to 3 dreads in siege mode when fitted with 7 XL guns would be fine. Titans would have to make choices between firepower and utility slots, which is good, and would also make them more vulnerable to tackling, with less smartbombs and neuts. - Give Titans a resist bonus of 7.5%/level, they won't be used at all on the field if they go Boom after only one minute of focused fire. So... it would just be a bigger dread?
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.05.05 15:23:00 - [21] Quote: Problem isn¦t that current capitals are not enough to kill titan. It¦s doomsday and fast warp in, DD warp out thing (with multiple titans). No non-capital ship fleet lives through that. Single titans have died and continue to die to smart gangs/fleets. Honestly, cat has been out of the bag so long already. Only way to reign titan production now is to nerf them so people don¦t see them as so good value for their isk (hah did I actually write that ^^) :p Problem is that you can use 2-3 titans to go in, kill all, go away. This will entice at creating more titans to operate in such coordination. Basically, the Titan exists to be THE support ship but ATM they are used as direct pew pew like they are overpowered yet "normal" gameplay ships. Quote: The (stupid) idea was that if you make a ship expensive enough there wont come many, which is obviously only true when they die fast enough, which obviously doesnt happen. Now solving this by making it even more expensive, when in the first place making it very expensive didnt work, is a bad idea Exactly. If the labour of 100 "monkeys" stop being enough to create them with this pace, they'll just put 200 monkeys at it.
Amitious Turkey Gallente Ammo Tech Inc	Posted - 2009.05.05 15:31:00 - [22] change the doomsday to a gang superdamage mod? And make the titan a logistics ship in the process? (\_/) (O.o) (> <)
Seishi Maru M. Corp Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.05.05 15:37:00 - [23] Originally by: Tippia If I may edit it a bità Originally by: Mystafyre My wish list is, Titans should cost more Titans should be stronger Titans should be deadlier There should be less Titans Here's the problem: #2+3 and #4 are mutually exclusive, no matter how much you fiddle with #1. If you want to achieve #4, you need to go the opposite way with #2 and 3 ù make them more fragile and less powerful. no..its easy.. just make then MUCH MUCH VERY weaker. so they die a lot and peopel stop producing. Then afte 1 year you Boost them massively and increase their cost by a lot. See.. now you have few remaining titans because of their sux age.. and then they are boosted adn expensive enough....
Esmenet Gallente	Posted - 2009.05.05 15:39:00 - [24] Originally by: Seishi Maru Originally by: Tippia If I may edit it a bit… Originally by: Mystafyre My wish list is, Titans should cost more Titans should be stronger Titans should be deadlier There should be less Titans Here's the problem: #2+3 and #4 are mutually exclusive, no matter how much you fiddle with #1. If you want to achieve #4, you need to go the opposite way with #2 and 3 — make them more fragile and less powerful. no..its easy.. just make then MUCH MUCH VERY weaker. so they die a lot and peopel stop producing. Then afte 1 year you Boost them massively and increase their cost by a lot. See.. now you have few remaining titans because of their sux age.. and then they are boosted adn expensive enough.... How does that help as they will immediately start producing once the buff is announced. And yea this is my sig. Real PVP'ers only use f1.
Seishi Maru M. Corp Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.05.05 15:43:00 - [25] Originally by: Esmenet Originally by: Seishi Maru Originally by: Tippia If I may edit it a bità Originally by: Mystafyre My wish list is, Titans should cost more Titans should be stronger Titans should be deadlier There should be less Titans Here's the problem: #2+3 and #4 are mutually exclusive, no matter how much you fiddle with #1. If you want to achieve #4, you need to go the opposite way with #2 and 3 ù make them more fragile and less powerful. no..its easy.. just make then MUCH MUCH VERY weaker. so they die a lot and peopel stop producing. Then afte 1 year you Boost them massively and increase their cost by a lot. See.. now you have few remaining titans because of their sux age.. and then they are boosted adn expensive enough.... How does that help as they will immediately start producing once the buff is announced. because you increase their price massively in 1 patch and then in the other oen you boost them? That is not ahrd to think...
Wannabehero Absolutely No Retreat	Posted - 2009.05.05 15:59:00 - [26] I posted a thread in F&I a few weeks ago about allowing titans's to fit an anti-doomsday module. If your titan is on the field and has the anti-DDD active, your fleet is safe from all DDD's on the grid. Might see them committed to more fights this way, though probably not. The value of committing your titan in an engagement needs to balance with the risk of losing one. Titan's require a good, hard look by a dev team to figure just what exactly they are supposed to do. Being One-Shot Mega-death-blast Cyno-Jumpers probably should not be their role. -- Don't harsh my mellow
Yalezorn Gallente	Posted - 2009.05.05 16:53:00 - [27] Stronger yes, deadlier no. There seems to be a decent following for getting rid of the doomsday weapon, and turning titans into mobile stations. That seems to be the best option imo, it'd be a waste of dev time to try and improve on the dreadnought.
Kovaric Gallente Fine Goods for Fine Gentlemen	Posted - 2009.05.05 17:28:00 - [28] If the problem with titans is them jumping in and jumping out and being unable to catch them, put a timer on their jump ability, those big jump engines take time to charge, scotty! If a ship has to stick around a system it jumps into for half an hour, vulnerable to being tackled and locked down and blown to hell... much less popular when you start losing them. Independant Trader
GiantSquid	Posted - 2009.05.05 18:02:00 - [29] Remove DD replace with ming lazer 1 use titan as origonal game plan > transpoting. omg now people can pvp again ^^
Crackzilla The Shadow Order	Posted - 2009.05.05 18:09:00 - [30] Originally by: Yalezorn add a moon mining laser to the game, that only Titans can fit? Eh? Every time one is used I feel a great disturbance in the Veldspar, as if millions of m3 suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. Originally by: Kovaric If the problem with titans is them jumping in and jumping out and being unable to catch them, put a timer on their jump ability, They have timers. Originally by: Kovaric If a ship has to stick around a system it jumps into for half an hour Thats not how titans are used. They're jumped into a system with protection where they'll warp off to a safe spot and cloak. For the attack, they'll uncloak, warp to sling, hit the doomsday, already be aligning out, doomsday goes, they warp out to next safe spot, then cloak. Anything small enough is usually popped before it can close range for hics to warp in. With a double/triple doomsday even the hics are usually dead. After aggro timers go they might jump out or log. The only time they're vulnerable is if they magically get probed at a safe spot, log with aggro, or the sling is messed up and they don't warp after the doomsday in time. Such as the doomsday killing the friendly cov ops giving hostile hics a place to warp to and point the titan. There are reasons why some titans have been in game for months/years without being popped. If you want to add risk either prevent titans from using cloaks, or have the doomsday mod massively increase mass while active/cooldown after. If you have the numbers of support+caps to protect a titan, then why risk a titan at all? Titans are giant stealthbombers.

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