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Is EVE unplayable without alts?

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Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.05.07 07:44:00 - [1] Many things in EVE are difficult to do alone. They require time, smarts, specialization, but most important of all, trust and cooperation. Or do they? When asking question of other people how they manage to get around many common obstacles in EVE, the answer I often hear: 'I use an alt' Examples How do you manage your buy and sell orders you are off doing PvP in another region? - I have a trade alt. How do you fund your 0.0 PvP adventures? - I have a mission alt in high-sec that funds my ships. How do you manage to expand your budding trade and manufacturing Empire? - I use a network of manufacturing and trade alts. How do you move your capitals around? - I use a cyno alt. How do you know where the enemy fleet would be? - I use a spy alt. How do you avoid those gatecamps? - I use a scouting alt. Why do you rarely lose PvP fights? - I use a Remote Rep/Falcon alt. How do you avoid damaging your reputation when doing scams? - I use a scam alt How do you infiltrate enemy organizations without ruining your characters rep? - I have a spy alt. How do you survive the boredom of defending an FW plex for 20 minutes with nothing to do? - I have a mission alt that I play while waiting for the timer. How do you manage your isk? - I have a wallet alt. Aren't you afraid of being tied down to that Mothership or Titan all the time? - I use a Mothership/Titan alt How do you avoid angering people while posting controversial stuff on the forums? - I have a forum posting alt. How do you avoid financial and corporate risks from untrustworthy players? - I have accounting alts, holding corp alts, teller alts, etc. How do you manage to move around stuff in high-sec during a war dec? - I use an NPC corp hauler alt. How do you always know the prices in Jita so fast? - I use a market alt. How do you avoid going back and forth between the warzone and your labs all the time to start jobs? - I use an invention/science alt. How did you supply yourself with ships, as you are -10.0 and there is no market in low-sec? - I have a hauler/ship moving alt. How do you manage to hunt down all those ships? - I have a scanning alt. How do you control your POS while away? - I use a POS manager alt. How do manage your supply lines during war? - We have an industrial alt corp Do you never get tired from the 0.0 POS Warfare? - We have a Empire wardeccing/merc alt corp Question Are 'alts' the intended way to get around most of these obstacles the developers put into the game? Did CCP intend people to rely on (100% trustworthy) alts to handle many of the more delicate or risky aspects of the game? Personally, I am trying hard to play altless, I don't like the meta-gamey aspects of alts. I love EVE for game design built upon risk and personal accountability, but for many people this doesn't seem to be the case. Alts overcome many of the issues requiring trust, cooporation or sacrifice/risk. Are alts to ingrained in EVE now that if they were removed, the game will become unplayable for the majority of players? Is CCP already consciously accounting for alts when designing new game mechanics? How long before having alts become a necessity for players instead of a 'fun RP option'? ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
TraininVain	Posted - 2009.05.07 07:48:00 - [2] Do CCP, who make money from subscriptions, mind if we have more than one subscription to the game?
Joe Umbra Legion Shadow Empire.	Posted - 2009.05.07 07:50:00 - [3] Originally by: Merdaneth How do you move your capitals around? - I use a cyno alt. How do you avoid those gatecamps? - I use a scouting alt. Why do you rarely lose PvP fights? - I use a Remote Rep/Falcon alt. These examples are based on using a second Account, not a true alt. (an alt is on of the 2 other char slots on your account that contains your main) Originally by: Merdaneth Question Are 'alts' the intended way to get around most of these obstacles the developers put into the game? Did CCP intend people to rely on (100% trustworthy) alts to handle many of the more delicate or risky aspects of the game? Yes, they were intended, and CCP wanted to give players the options, otherwise they would have designed accounts with 1 char slot, instead of 3.
Dear Abby	Posted - 2009.05.07 07:51:00 - [4] should have used you posting alt.
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.05.07 07:56:00 - [5] Originally by: Joe Yes, they were intended, and CCP wanted to give players the options, otherwise they would have designed accounts with 1 char slot, instead of 3. Obviously the game feature is intended. That was not my question. Was it intended they their use would become so wide-spread, and that they would be used by a single player to bypass so many common in-game challenges/obstacles? ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.05.07 07:56:00 - [6] I have at least 1 friend in EvE who has a very good 0.0 PvP record and has no alts that I know of. He definitely only has one account. It can be done, and done well.
Haks'he Lirky Burning Bright Inc.	Posted - 2009.05.07 08:04:00 - [7] I think the real question is, do you want to experience more than one aspect of the game at the same time? Or, do you want to experience aspects of the game without hurting your chances of experiencing other content? And then the question to CCP would be, do you want players to be able to experience multiple aspects of the game easily. I think the answer to all is Yes.
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.05.07 08:06:00 - [8] Originally by: Malcanis I have at least 1 friend in EvE who has a very good 0.0 PvP record and has no alts that I know of. He definitely only has one account. It can be done, and done well. My question to you would be: is he the rule or an exception among your circle of friends and fellow players? ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Haks'he Lirky Burning Bright Inc.	Posted - 2009.05.07 08:11:00 - [9] Originally by: Merdaneth Originally by: Malcanis I have at least 1 friend in EvE who has a very good 0.0 PvP record and has no alts that I know of. He definitely only has one account. It can be done, and done well. My question to you would be: is he the rule or an exception among your circle of friends and fellow players? I am not the object of your question, but I can answer from my experience. I have been playing for 6 years now and I have never known a dedicated player that did not have two accounts or more, I have never known a dedicated player who did not make frequent use of all the character slots on his account. In fact the only times I have seen a player not making use of an alt (or second account) is in their first months of playing EVE.
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.05.07 08:14:00 - [10] Originally by: Haks'he Lirky I think the real question is, do you want to experience more than one aspect of the game at the same time? Or, do you want to experience aspects of the game without hurting your chances of experiencing other content? That is indeed one of the core questions. Why would CCP have a stringent policy about not being able to change character names due to keeping accountability, but yet provide alts to avoid accoutability. Why would CCP create all kinds of obstacles that require cooperation or sacrifice of time/isk/safety for a single character, and allow all that to be relatively easily overcome through use of alts? Originally by: Haks'he Lirky And then the question to CCP would be, do you want players to be able to experience multiple aspects of the game easily. I think the answer to all is Yes. Then why can't I start invention jobs from two regions away. Why can't I look at Jita prices from anywhere? Why can't I modify my market orders from anywhere. Why can'y I start a POS that counts as 'out of corp' and cannot be attacked when my corp is war decced? Why can't I manage my POS from any region? Why can't I just enter high-sec after going -10.0, why can't I disguise my character when going on a spying mission? Why create so many in-game obstacles for a single character, and then allow a bypass through use alts? They say EVE is a harsh game, but its made so much softer by 100% trustworthy alts that remove many risks and consequences that one character would suffer. No alt spy can ever betray your character. No alt industrialist would ever cheat you PVP character. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery

FlyinS Caldari Planetary Industry and Trade Organization	Posted - 2009.05.07 08:14:00 - [11] Whoever actually has all those alts and/or accounts really seriously needs a Real Life alt.
Helldrek Demonstar Amarr Raype Inc.	Posted - 2009.05.07 08:18:00 - [12] Played for 3 years without an alt and still don't feel the need for one... ___
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.05.07 08:19:00 - [13] Originally by: Merdaneth Originally by: Malcanis I have at least 1 friend in EvE who has a very good 0.0 PvP record and has no alts that I know of. He definitely only has one account. It can be done, and done well. My question to you would be: is he the rule or an exception among your circle of friends and fellow players? Oh definitely the exception. I myself have 2 accounts, each with a "main" and an 800k alt, although really it's been months since I used either of the 800ks... I just keep them "just in case" I suppose. There's no real reason to delete them. Nonetheless, the point stands: you can play perfectly well with a single character on a single account. Stuff like cap ships is gonna be a lot harder though, but not impossible.
Haks'he Lirky Burning Bright Inc.	Posted - 2009.05.07 08:20:00 - [14] Originally by: Merdaneth Why create so many in-game obstacles for a single character, and then allow a bypass through use alts? I think CCP did not think everything completely through, they have added most features ad-hoc and without really thinking about consequences (and not really needing to because the players use the Alt workaround when needed). I still love the game, but sometimes I get frustrated when I realize I need to train an alt to be able to experience certain content.
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.05.07 08:20:00 - [15] Originally by: FlyinS Whoever actually has all those alts and/or accounts really seriously needs a Real Life alt. Yeah I would seriously love a RL industry alt or two to go grind for me.
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.05.07 08:22:00 - [16] Originally by: Merdaneth Originally by: Haks'he Lirky I think the real question is, do you want to experience more than one aspect of the game at the same time? Or, do you want to experience aspects of the game without hurting your chances of experiencing other content? That is indeed one of the core questions. Why would CCP have a stringent policy about not being able to change character names due to keeping accountability, but yet provide alts to avoid accoutability. Why would CCP create all kinds of obstacles that require cooperation or sacrifice of time/isk/safety for a single character, and allow all that to be relatively easily overcome through use of alts? Originally by: Haks'he Lirky And then the question to CCP would be, do you want players to be able to experience multiple aspects of the game easily. I think the answer to all is Yes. Then why can't I start invention jobs from two regions away. Why can't I look at Jita prices from anywhere? Why can't I modify my market orders from anywhere. Why can'y I start a POS that counts as 'out of corp' and cannot be attacked when my corp is war decced? Why can't I manage my POS from any region? Why can't I just enter high-sec after going -10.0, why can't I disguise my character when going on a spying mission? Why create so many in-game obstacles for a single character, and then allow a bypass through use alts? They say EVE is a harsh game, but its made so much softer by 100% trustworthy alts that remove many risks and consequences that one character would suffer. No alt spy can ever betray your character. No alt industrialist would ever cheat you PVP character. Having some kind of non-consensual (ie: you can't choose to hide it) public link between the alts on an account would be perfectly reasonable, and I would support it. Doesn't solve the problem of multi-accounting though.
FlyinS Caldari Planetary Industry and Trade Organization	Posted - 2009.05.07 08:22:00 - [17] Originally by: Malcanis Yeah I would seriously love a RL industry alt or two to go grind for me. Hell I'd settle for one that ran to the grocery store and did my dishes for me.
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.05.07 08:24:00 - [18] Originally by: Haks'he Lirky Originally by: Merdaneth Originally by: Malcanis I have at least 1 friend in EvE who has a very good 0.0 PvP record and has no alts that I know of. He definitely only has one account. It can be done, and done well. My question to you would be: is he the rule or an exception among your circle of friends and fellow players? I am not the object of your question, but I can answer from my experience. I have been playing for 6 years now and I have never known a dedicated player that did not have two accounts or more, I have never known a dedicated player who did not make frequent use of all the character slots on his account. In fact the only times I have seen a player not making use of an alt (or second account) is in their first months of playing EVE. Hi, my name is Malcanis and I only use one slot on each of my two accounts these days. And the second account really only logs in to train skills most of the time...
Jhagiti Tyran Mortis Angelus	Posted - 2009.05.07 08:25:00 - [19] Having an alt definitely makes life a lot easier, my alt for instance has a lot of skills invested in areas like specialist hauling ships so I can haul my combat related crap like mods and ammo around securely without having take time out of my combat related skills on my main character and the ability to use a covert ops for scouting comes in handy to. The game mechanics and the way it works does make an alt very handy although I wouldn't go as far say one is essential it would just make things more complicated. -
Haks'he Lirky Burning Bright Inc.	Posted - 2009.05.07 08:34:00 - [20] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Haks'he Lirky Originally by: Merdaneth Originally by: Malcanis I have at least 1 friend in EvE who has a very good 0.0 PvP record and has no alts that I know of. He definitely only has one account. It can be done, and done well. My question to you would be: is he the rule or an exception among your circle of friends and fellow players? I am not the object of your question, but I can answer from my experience. I have been playing for 6 years now and I have never known a dedicated player that did not have two accounts or more, I have never known a dedicated player who did not make frequent use of all the character slots on his account. In fact the only times I have seen a player not making use of an alt (or second account) is in their first months of playing EVE. Hi, my name is Malcanis and I only use one slot on each of my two accounts these days. And the second account really only logs in to train skills most of the time... I have one active account with one character on it, two inactive accounts with 4 characters with an average of 25msp each. Day to day I can do stuff with a single account, if I start to do something semi-seriously I will find the need to activate my other accounts.

Tippia Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2009.05.07 08:42:00 - [21] To answer the thread title: No. 1+ year in and I have no inclination to or need for getting an alt, and EVE remains entirely playable. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Glengrant TOHA Heavy Industries	Posted - 2009.05.07 08:44:00 - [22] Originally by: Merdaneth Many things in EVE are difficult to do alone. They require time, smarts, specialization, but most important of all, trust and cooperation. Or do they? When asking question of other people how they manage to get around many common obstacles in EVE, the answer I often hear: 'I use an alt' It's not a 100% clear if you mean just alts or multiple accounts though at least a couple of your example require an alt on a second account. If you meant just accounts than I managed to play for 6 years with just a single one thanks to this massive multiplayer part. ;-) If you meant alts in general including the 2 other slots on the first account than I'm sure they have been meant to be the same as the same feature in most other MMOGs - play a paladin one day and a wizard on the nest if you feel like it. Same for EVE - play a miner in high sec one day and a bad ass yarring pirate the next in low sec. Thanks to the skill system it's not needed as much as in most fantasy games where you are boxed in by choosing a character class. And using the alts on the same account comes at a price in that you have to re-train a set of fundamental skills. I guess because of "throwaway" alts CCP rather regretted to have introduced the feature (chars created just to spy - delete - start a new one to flame on forum - delete - create a new one to rob a corp - delete - etc...). Spme of your examples (except for the scamming or safe trade alt etc...) do not actually require an alt and actually are less efficient (SP wise) if you do it on the same account. The many people with extra accounts just want full control and have no patience rather than play with others. There's also a number of players who try to ignore the MM part and want to play EVE as if it were solo game - they need the extra accounts to compensate for the fact that many features are designed to encourage cooperation. --- Save the forum: Think before you post. ISK BUYER = LOSER EVE TV- Bring it back! Laptop, NVidia7900GS, Ubuntu 8.04, WINE
Xercies Ravere	Posted - 2009.05.07 08:48:00 - [23] One thing I hate is account alts pause your main skill training making you probably need another account if you want to do anything at the same time. Pure money making for CCP this is. How did it go so wrong.
eXeGee UK1 Zero	Posted - 2009.05.07 08:57:00 - [24] Edited by: eXeGee on 07/05/2009 09:06:16 I think eve is way much harder game if you don't have alt (especially for pirates and people living in deep .0 - as long as there's no corpmates who will resupply you), yes alts are very handy. When i started playing eve i thought i won't need an alt, but after few months... having an alt is necessary for me atm. There are no safe and profitable ways to make isks with my main in low sec. In other MMOs people are also using alt characters, why eve should be different? Anyways, i wonder why CCP is calling this "buddy program" a buddy program, can't they just make it straight and call it "buy new alt with discount"? e-drama
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.05.07 09:03:00 - [25] Originally by: Xercies Ravere One thing I hate is account alts pause your main skill training making you probably need another account if you want to do anything at the same time. Pure money making for CCP this is. Yeah, how they keep their status as a registered charity is a mystery.
Tippia Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2009.05.07 09:14:00 - [26] Originally by: Xercies Ravere One thing I hate is account alts pause your main skill training making you probably need another account if you want to do anything at the same time. Pure money making for CCP this is. Yeah, strange how CCP is doing what all other MMO companies out there also do… ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Irida Mershkov Gallente War is Bliss	Posted - 2009.05.07 09:40:00 - [27] No, I have no alts and I have no problems getting ISK when I need it and doing what I want.
Ouro Akala	Posted - 2009.05.07 09:48:00 - [28] I'm pretty much a noob to EVE, though through the course of playing this game I haven't really felt the need for an alt at all. I use the additional character slots mostly to fiddle with the avatar editor (which is great). That being said, I get the impression sometimes that many people tend to view many aspects of the game, or to be more precise, the way that players approach these many aspects and how they tackle them in a certain way, which, over time, becomes a widespread practice, as a more or less intended game feature. In my opinion at least, EVE was designed at it's core as a pretty much simple game, that had the potential for complex, not necessarily intended, solutions to obstacles that the players came up with. EVE is an MMO. MMO's work around the concept of teamwork - parties, raids, gangs, fleets, warbands - you name it. I know EVE players hate this game being compared to other, more "standard" MMO's, but the similarities are there. Capital ships were, from the way I see it, designed for teams of players. So it is logical that when you're a solo pilot and you want a cap, there's a big stop sign in front of you. These are elements in the game that encourage you to become part of a group, which MMO's are about. And while in EVE we can always say "hey, we got this l337 FTL communication and stuffs", you still need to fly to your POS, check your Jita orders etc in person, because there needs to be a reason for players to migrate, for them to use their engines. Ships are meant to be flown after all. If you could do most of these things while not leaving your system then it actually does become excell online. As for differing character specialisations, remember, your character can have every possible skill in the game at the same time, if you wish it (and can wait long enough). In my opinion, alts make things a bit too easy. I also don't think that when CCP implemented the additional characters lots they did it saying "this one's for checking the market!".
TimMc Gallente Brutal Deliverance Blackguard Coalition	Posted - 2009.05.07 09:56:00 - [29] I've played for 2 years and only ever created a couple alts. 1. Corp holding alt 2. Hauler alt but both have been on the same account, as I don't want to pay more.
General Newbold	Posted - 2009.05.07 10:05:00 - [30] totally unrelated to this thread, ive been thinking about this for most of the morning i had a 2nd account, which i never used, but this morning i have decided that i need one again, why i hear you ask? ive just started mining, and its way way easier with a hauler.......you cant hit the mega money without one!



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