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Vadimko	Posted - 2009.05.15 11:03:00 - [1] High speeds are no more. One of the arguments in devblog was "we want to see afterburners in pvp". Im looking on my killboard. NO ONE is using it in PvP. Why? Stupid players dont want to set it up because of obstinacy? Or another reason?
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2009.05.15 11:12:00 - [2] AB + Scrambler beats MWD each and every time ... provided (ie The "IF") you can get that initial 10km range to kill his drive. Most killboards you checked are probably for 0.0 entities and MWD is still considered a requirement 'out there' due to bubbles .. look at what is done in with AB fittings FW (low-sec) to get an idea of its power.
Kingwood Amarr Yawn Corp	Posted - 2009.05.15 11:13:00 - [3] Because you can't dictate range in PvP with an AB. And ability to dicate range >>>>>>>>> all.
Khanoonian Singh Ramshackle Industrial Unity Thru Aggression.	Posted - 2009.05.15 11:13:00 - [4] Edited by: Khanoonian Singh on 15/05/2009 11:14:06 I prefer ABs on my rifters when not tackling. edit: I have had very little trouble closing to 10k, but it may have to do with the fact that it's just a rifter 99% of the time.
edrenbaton2	Posted - 2009.05.15 11:15:00 - [5] Originally by: Hirana Yoshida AB + Scrambler beats MWD each and every time ... provided (ie The "IF") you can get that initial 10km range to kill his drive. Most killboards you checked are probably for 0.0 entities and MWD is still considered a requirement 'out there' due to bubbles .. look at what is done in with AB fittings FW (low-sec) to get an idea of its power. http://www.battleclinic.com/eve_online/pk/view/player-Hirana+Yoshida-kills.html Theory warrior detected. Please continue. its so interesting. Ok where i can see low-sec killboard with afterburners?
Wensley Minmatar The Tuskers	Posted - 2009.05.15 11:23:00 - [6] On frigates and assault frigates an afterburner is possibly the best option if you don't have 0.0 bubbles to deal with. Pretty much all fights for these ships take place within scrambler range and an afterburner can get you up to speeds of 1 km/s which is enough to close range. Once in scram range the afterburner lets you dictate range. Blaster ships in particular hate this Oh, and before the haters start up it is perfectly possible to kill interceptors using an AB frig. Sure, not all of them but more than enough to make it fun. Piracy Blog \| Rifter PvP Guide \| Rifter Video
Kingwood Amarr Yawn Corp	Posted - 2009.05.15 11:23:00 - [7] Originally by: Khanoonian Singh Edited by: Khanoonian Singh on 15/05/2009 11:14:06 I prefer ABs on my rifters when not tackling. edit: I have had very little trouble closing to 10k, but it may have to do with the fact that it's just a rifter 99% of the time. ABs are pretty much only viable on frigs. All the speed-nerf and scrambler change did was make neuts pretty much a necessity. Neut + MWD > AB + scrambler. The only positive thing about this is that Frig gangs are more potent. That's about it. Fail changes, imho.
King Rothgar Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2009.05.15 11:43:00 - [8] AB's are of limited use, most ships need a mwd but a few can get away with an AB or even no speed mod at all. Amarr BS's get away with no speed mods in low sec just fine due to them having excellent gun range. I never stick a speed mod on my abaddons. Amarr BC's can also get away with no speed mods for the same reason but I still stick atleast an AB on mine and typically will use a mwd instead. There is one ship I have that actually works better with an AB instead of a mwd, it's the pilgrim. I get within warp scrambler range cloaked and then duck under any turrets with the assistance of a tracking disruptor. Hence the lower sig radius and reduced cap consumption are very handy. Of course, if I botch it and get decloaked before in scrambler range then I have a problem but I use the pilgrim in situations where that is unlikely to happen. ---------------------------------------------
Kingwood Amarr Yawn Corp	Posted - 2009.05.15 11:47:00 - [9] Originally by: King Rothgar There is one ship I have that actually works better with an AB instead of a mwd, it's the pilgrim. Truth. I totally forgot about the Pilgrim, even though I fly it.
Intigo Amarr Endemic Aggression Exalted.	Posted - 2009.05.15 11:59:00 - [10] Afterburners are perfect now. They are used in a lot of roles. One ship you're all missing where the best setup includes an AB is the Taranis. MWD + AB Ranis is an amazing ship. ___________________ ENEMA, much love. <3
Kane Starkiller	Posted - 2009.05.15 13:35:00 - [11] waiting for Merlin to come in and say that AB fits are comedy killmails. . . . I fly my AB ishkur because it needs a small sig radius and usually what I can't tackle I can outrun. It's never been a handicap for me.
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.05.15 14:19:00 - [12] I see lots of people using AB's in PvP. I use AB's in 80% of my setups, but I already was using them on my Crusader before the scrambler/MWD/speed changes. To get AB setups to work properly required a lot of pilot skill then, nowadays its much easier. However, since the changes more hostiles started using neutralizers and warrior II's or even small guns on big ships, making my AB escapades actually more difficult than before the changes. Originally by: edrenbaton2 Theory warrior detected. Perhaps check out this: http://www.battleclinic.com/eve_online/pk/view/player-Hirana+Yoshida-kills.html Or even better, this: http://www.amarr-empire.net/killboard/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=38313 Alts, you know? Originally by: edrenbaton2 Ok where i can see low-sec killboard with afterburners? Since I don't post my killmails on public boards, and most of them are solo kills, I think my losses on an enemy killboard might give you a good indication of my and hostile AB use: http://www.minmatar-militia.org/kb/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=21653&view=losses Favored AB setups: Crusader 4x Dual Light Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency S Cold-Gas I Arcjet Thrusters X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator Small Armor Repairer II Adaptive Nano Plating II Damage Control I Heat Sink II Malediction 3x Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S 1x Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Phalanx Rocket 1MN Afterburner II X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I Emergency Damage Control I Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Small Armor Repairer II Vengeance 3x Light Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Phalanx Rocket J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator 1MN Afterburner II Small Armor Repairer II Adaptive Nano Plating II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Damage Control II ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Kavu Genos Occidere The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2009.05.15 15:51:00 - [13] Originally by: Intigo Afterburners are perfect now. They are used in a lot of roles. One ship you're all missing where the best setup includes an AB is the Taranis. MWD + AB Ranis is an amazing ship. shhh how you know bout that man? thats a garmon secrit fit
Veshta Yoshida Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.05.15 16:09:00 - [14] Originally by: edrenbaton2 http://www.battleclinic.com/eve_online/pk/view/player-Hirana+Yoshida-kills.html Theory warrior detected. Please continue. its so interesting. Ok where i can see low-sec killboard with afterburners? Not at all, just defaults to the sisters log-in credentials. I do have a certain amount of experience. AB fittings WILL beat any and all similar sized ships (not counting faction frigates) using MWD IF you get a scrambler activated on it. No MWD means you have more cap and usually better fitting options as you save a considerable amount of Grid and CPU. The difficult part is getting that damned scrambler activated in time, very little margin for error.
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.05.15 16:48:00 - [15] Originally by: Veshta Yoshida The difficult part is getting that damned scrambler activated in time, very little margin for error. Which is why it is a good idea to activate your scrambler before you activate anything else. Not caught by scram: no aggro, you go back on gate/station and jump. Caught: pwn. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Anubis Xian Reavers	Posted - 2009.05.15 17:08:00 - [16] People only 'need' mwds because mwds exist. Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
Multipurpose Cleaner	Posted - 2009.05.15 17:41:00 - [17] Originally by: edrenbaton2 http://www.battleclinic.com/eve_online/pk/view/player-Hirana+Yoshida-kills.html Theory warrior detected. Please continue. its so interesting. Ok where i can see low-sec killboard with afterburners? TBH, posting BC killboard stats for other people's alts when you're using an alt (or have pretty crap stats) yourself is pretty hypocritical
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2009.05.15 18:16:00 - [18] Originally by: Anubis Xian People only 'need' mwds because mwds exist. And because ABs exist.
Anubis Xian Reavers	Posted - 2009.05.15 18:43:00 - [19] Originally by: Gypsio III Originally by: Anubis Xian People only 'need' mwds because mwds exist. And because ABs exist. So how are you liking Fuzzy Logic 5? Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
Jimmy Duce	Posted - 2009.05.15 19:06:00 - [20] Originally by: Anubis Xian Originally by: Gypsio III Originally by: Anubis Xian People only 'need' mwds because mwds exist. And because ABs exist. So how are you liking Fuzzy Logic 5? Took so long to train to V might as well get some use out of it
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.05.15 20:00:00 - [21] MWDs are for controlling range. Making sure that your opponent stays at the range you want him to or making sure that you get close enough to him to scram before he warps off. ABs can do the above with easier fitting requirements and no cap penalty, and are also good for in-combat maneuvering (E.g. taking less damage from missiles, dodging turret fire). However, MWDs are far better at controlling range due to the sheer speed you get. Make from that what you will. I'm sure this thread will attract a bunch of people trying to tell you that oen or the other is the "best".
Intigo Amarr Endemic Aggression Exalted.	Posted - 2009.05.15 21:16:00 - [22] Edited by: Intigo on 15/05/2009 21:27:54 By the way, Merdaneth - I'm kinda sold on the AB Crusader now, I'm afraid to admit. I still don't think it's a good idea for 0.0 since I fly fairly expensive clones, but good grief it's fun in lowsec. I went out to Egmar earlier today and had an amazing fight that pretty much sold me. What the KB doesn't show is the fact that I also had a Zealot well into armor that would have gone down if he had not gotten more backup in time. :/ The Zealot basically came in just as the Thorax was dying, unfortunately the Vaga came in just a little bit too early. Getting into range of the Zealot was a bit of an issue (that's where the hull damage is from), but once orbit was established it was a piece of cake. The Thorax had medium drones that I took care of pretty easily after the Ares had gone down. I love how with a frickin' T2 Afterburner I can still do ~1.7km/s with perfect skills + Zor's + one speed hardwiring and that's before overloading. Well over 2k when I overload. The fit I'm playing about in: 4x Dual Light Pulse's 1mn AB II J5B Scrambler SAR II Pseudo DCU (swapped out my IFFA since I was being skeptical about my chances :p) CPR II HS II Energy Collision dmg rig Aux Thrusters speed rig Incredibly fun to fly. ___________________ ENEMA, much love. <3
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2009.05.15 21:34:00 - [23] Originally by: Anubis Xian Originally by: Gypsio III Originally by: Anubis Xian People only 'need' mwds because mwds exist. And because ABs exist. So how are you liking Fuzzy Logic 5? It's not as fun as killing lol-afterburning cruisers and frigates in a Caracal.
Intigo Amarr Endemic Aggression Exalted.	Posted - 2009.05.15 22:04:00 - [24] Originally by: Gypsio III Originally by: Anubis Xian Originally by: Gypsio III Originally by: Anubis Xian People only 'need' mwds because mwds exist. And because ABs exist. So how are you liking Fuzzy Logic 5? It's not as fun as killing lol-afterburning cruisers and frigates in a Caracal. Want to fight my AB'ing Frigate hull in your MWD Caracal? :p ___________________ ENEMA, much love. <3
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2009.05.15 23:31:00 - [25] Sure.
Intigo Amarr Endemic Aggression Exalted.	Posted - 2009.05.16 00:30:00 - [26] Originally by: Gypsio III Sure. Awesome! Mail me ingame about a time and place - we could even put some ISK on it if you want! ___________________ ENEMA, much love. <3
hsrytjfdtyjh	Posted - 2009.05.16 03:11:00 - [27] The Enyo takes an AB better then an MWD, but if you are sitting in an Enyo you would probably be better off in an Iskur. Although the Enyo can put out some good DPS (250ish w/o rigs/implants/joke fit).
UMEE Gunship Diplomacy	Posted - 2009.05.16 05:45:00 - [28] Edited by: UMEE on 16/05/2009 05:53:16 been doing the pvp thing for a while. i cant think of a ship or situation in which AB fit would outperform the mwd fit. well, maybe speed tanking missiles...but who does that? if you have an AB fitted, on any ship really, and youre getting "kills", i guarantee that you're killing noobs. someone else said it: you cant dictate range without MWD...that's all there is to it. if youre in a frig, you cant tackle WELL without an MWD. however, it is appropriate for some cruisers to fit both, and offline the mwd at the right time. this is for very specific situations, as it gimps your setup quite a bit. AB fits: MWD cruiser + neuts + warriors (i.e. most cruisers) = you dead mwd frigate = you tackled, and/or dead if said frigate has rails/beams/warriors bubble = you dead
UMEE Gunship Diplomacy	Posted - 2009.05.16 05:46:00 - [29] Originally by: Merdaneth Favored AB setups: Crusader 4x Dual Light Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency S Cold-Gas I Arcjet Thrusters X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator Small Armor Repairer II Adaptive Nano Plating II Damage Control I Heat Sink II Malediction 3x Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S 1x Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Phalanx Rocket 1MN Afterburner II X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I Emergency Damage Control I Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Small Armor Repairer II Vengeance 3x Light Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Phalanx Rocket J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator 1MN Afterburner II Small Armor Repairer II Adaptive Nano Plating II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Damage Control II can you please not post this garbage? this guy is looking for guidance, not comedy fits.
Thorian Baalnorn	Posted - 2009.05.16 05:48:00 - [30] I prefer ABs over MWD.I use one on my hawk and have no problem with catching people. The fox doesnt always follow the rabbit in order to catch him, sometimes he takes shortcuts. The same applies to pvp.Its not how fast you can go its the tactics you use to catch your prey. Occassionally one target gets away, and like everything else AB has its limits.But MWD has to many drawbacks for going fast. the major one being its huge sig radius( here comes the transversal velocity debate). Ive used both MWDS and ABs and ABs are far superior at damage reduction than MWDS from my experience. MWDs are only good for running bubbled gates and even then its limited. If the campers know what they are doing, a few of your mates are going to be cannon fodder while the rest escape. The only other use of MWDS is to get in targeting range fast. This too i find limited uses for. i would show proof of kills in my AB fitted hawk.... but since ive never died in it, its a little hard:)
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.05.16 06:43:00 - [31] Originally by: UMEE been doing the pvp thing for a while. i cant think of a ship or situation in which AB fit would outperform the mwd fit. well, maybe speed tanking missiles...but who does that? You merely show a lack of imagination and experience. AB fits cannot be scrammed, and thus keep their speed advantage versus MWD ships. They have more cap, and thus can better run an active tank, are less easily neuted and don't have to worry about capping out. AB ships have more fitting room since AB's have lower reqs then MWD's. AB fits have a better sig radius, and with a fast inty you can actually speed tank small guns on non-bonuses ships. Originally by: UMEE if you have an AB fitted, on any ship really, and youre getting "kills", i guarantee that you're killing noobs. Ouch, you just called dozens (if not hundreds) of very experienced PvPers that I killed with an AB fit noobs. I think it more likely you are a noob yourself. Originally by: UMEE someone else said it: you cant dictate range without MWD...that's all there is to it. if youre in a frig, you cant tackle WELL without an MWD. however, it is appropriate for some cruisers to fit both, and offline the mwd at the right time. this is for very specific situations, as it gimps your setup quite a bit. You indeed can tackle better with a MWD in most cases. But I don't mean just to tackle my opponents, I mean to kill them too. Originally by: UMEE AB fits: MWD cruiser + neuts + warriors (i.e. most cruisers) = you dead mwd frigate = you tackled, and/or dead if said frigate has rails/beams/warriors bubble = you dead Warriors are a problem for both MWD and AB fits. Only I can tank and destroyed non-bonused warriors (not Vexor or Arbi warriors) in an AB fit due to fitting an active tank. Neutralizers are certainly a big problem since with an AB fit you want to orbit close. MWD frigate with long range weapons: laugh as his weapons continue to miss as you keep transversal high. Bubble: just go back on gate, just try it you can do it. In fact, in FW whole fleets of my opponents have seen me go back on gate and then orbit for 5-10 secs while under fire hundreds of times. Have you ever tried to go back on a gate? Originally by: UMEE can you please not post this garbage? this guy is looking for guidance, not comedy fits. If you had only been a member of the Minmatar Militia, you surely wouldn't be laughing. I believe my setups have proven themselves in practice. If you fly them like MWD ships, yes, they don't work. But you need to fly them as AB ships. In any case, AB fits are not superior to MWD fits, but they are a viable option, especially on smaller ships, not so much on big ships. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2009.05.16 07:30:00 - [32] Originally by: Thorian Baalnorn I prefer ABs over MWD.I use one on my hawk and have no problem with catching people. Because you're using a Hawk. Since the ship is utter trash, you occasionally get people who aren't careful enough when keeping range. Not that you can actually kill them yourself, of course, but if your trash ship is backed up by a sufficiently large gang, it might be enough to get a kill. Quote: The fox doesnt always follow the rabbit in order to catch him, sometimes he takes shortcuts. The same applies to pvp.Its not how fast you can go its the tactics you use to catch your prey. Until the rabbit hits "keep at 20km", then your AB fox just sits there helplessly waiting to die. Don't worry though, it won't take very long if you're flying a Hawk. Quote: Occassionally one target gets away, and like everything else AB has its limits.But MWD has to many drawbacks for going fast. the major one being its huge sig radius( here comes the transversal velocity debate). Ive used both MWDS and ABs and ABs are far superior at damage reduction than MWDS from my experience. Since the only reason to be flying a frigate (especially a lolHawk) is to tackle, allowing a target to get away means you have failed to do your job. A proper MWD fit does not suffer from this problem. PS: you have zero damage reduction when you have zero transversal. By fitting an AB, you have zero transversal against anything but a battleship. See if you can figure out the results of 100% of cruiser/BC dps hitting your lolHawk. Quote: MWDs are only good for running bubbled gates and even then its limited. If the campers know what they are doing, a few of your mates are going to be cannon fodder while the rest escape. And for every other PvP situation where you care about range or transversal. Quote: The only other use of MWDS is to get in targeting range fast. This too i find limited uses for. Hint to the clueless: sometimes you want to stay OUT of range. Such as when facing a comedy-fit Hawk (is there any other kind of Hawk, honestly?), all I have to do is turn on my MWD and hit "keep at 20km", and you have 15 seconds to live. Quote: i would show proof of kills in my AB fitted hawk.... but since ive never died in it, its a little hard:) As we have already discussed, having literally zero losses in a ship means you either: 1) Fight only clueless newbies. or 2) Blob with such overwhelming odds that it's not possible to lose. Either way, nothing to brag about. -----------
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.05.16 07:41:00 - [33] Originally by: Intigo By the way, Merdaneth - I'm kinda sold on the AB Crusader now, I'm afraid to admit. I still don't think it's a good idea for 0.0 since I fly fairly expensive clones, but good grief it's fun in lowsec. Good to hear! Fun is why I fly it. That and its broad engagement envelope: you can engage and have a good chance against many different types of ships, frigs, inties, AF's, cruisers, even some HACs and Recons. Had a Zealot into structure myself yesterday. The structure damage can be an advantage. It is what I call a psychological point. Hostiles don't flee as often when they have you into structure. The Zealot should have pulled out earlier, but seeing you into struct would have him believe: 'just one shot more' and made him stay too long. If you manage your damage well (and the SAR allows you to do that, you can keep people around even while not having a point on them) Also, the extra firepower (heat sink, close range crystals) makes it put out 50% extra damage above a Scorch MWD Sader, which allows you to gank and get out much better. It is going to get destroyed more often than a MWD Sader, but you are also etting more thrills for your isk. I started out with a CPR as well in my early setups, but fond that many fights against smaller ships only last less than a minute, and the bigger fights only require occasional repping (burst at the start, and then occassional reps during the rest) I found a resistance plate worth more. Resistance plate allows you to kill those nasty blaster Ranises up close. Yeah, and beware of SF, they are very aware of AB inties by now. :) ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.05.16 08:04:00 - [34] Dear Thorian Baalnorn and other interested readers, below is an analysis of Merin's argument: - Merin thinks AB fits only work against noobs or when you are in a fleet - Merin thinks 90% of EVE PvPers are noobs - Solo fights in EVE make up only 10% of engagements (hence, 90% are fleet fights) Concluding: - Merin thinks your fit is perfectly fine in approximately 99% of the cases (1 - 0.1 noobs x 0.1 fleet) ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2009.05.16 11:58:00 - [35] Originally by: Intigo Originally by: Gypsio III Sure. Awesome! Mail me ingame about a time and place - we could even put some ISK on it if you want! I live in Lonetrek lowsec, in the Mara area. I can come down into Black Rise or Placid if you like, but highsec is not an option. Weekday evenings are best for me, but you may see me on at times over the weekend. I'm EU time. How does 100 mill sound?
Lord DevilHanzo Gallente The Crane Technique	Posted - 2009.05.16 17:13:00 - [36] My use of afterburners was prompted by the increase in people using scrams, if I see a drop in people using scrams I'll go back to more MWD fits. The majority of fights I'm having in and around low-sec, a MWD would of probably got me killed. I do favour close range though so I suppose I lean towards getting in under guns and out-tracking others. Only thing I have a MWD on is an arty claw and an arazu, neither of which see much use as of late.
Anubis Xian Reavers	Posted - 2009.05.16 17:21:00 - [37] Originally by: Merin Ryskin PS: you have zero damage reduction when you have zero transversal. By fitting an AB, you have zero transversal against anything but a battleship. See if you can figure out the results of 100% of cruiser/BC dps hitting your lolHawk. First off all, a Hawk vs a BC with neither ship moving isn't going to be hit for 100% dmg 100% of the time by cruiser weapons...unless it has an mwd on. Second, you are putting too much stock into transversal, which btw is not even the way guns determine if they can track or not. Angular Velocity is what determines if a given turret can track a given target. You can have zero transversal and still miss every time. ABs are in theory the best way for a close range frig to fight a larger ship, MWDs make them prone to neuts and scramblers. AB frigs can get moving at some pretty impressive speeds as well. Granted they would be that much faster with an MWD. Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
Redundant Redundancy	Posted - 2009.05.16 17:39:00 - [38] It's fairly difficult to neut out an AB+DCII+Scram, even if I am losing all my capacitor every couple of seconds I can keep them running. Will have to try a MWD+AB Jag one of these days. They do look fun.
4THELULZ	Posted - 2009.05.16 17:40:00 - [39] Edited by: 4THELULZ on 16/05/2009 17:43:51 My summary from experimenting with both: AB - Better than a MWD if you get into range but no guarantee you'll get there in the first place MWD - A lot better at getting you into range at all and risk/effect of it being shut off has been somewhat exaggerated. Can't speak for everyone but that's been my experience.
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2009.05.16 18:41:00 - [40] Originally by: Anubis Xian Originally by: Merin Ryskin PS: you have zero damage reduction when you have zero transversal. By fitting an AB, you have zero transversal against anything but a battleship. See if you can figure out the results of 100% of cruiser/BC dps hitting your lolHawk. First off all, a Hawk vs a BC with neither ship moving isn't going to be hit for 100% dmg 100% of the time by cruiser weapons...unless it has an mwd on. Yes, it will. Zero transversal = full turret damage. Are you trying to suggest that there's a separate loss-of-damage calculation from target sig/turret resolution?
The Tzar Malicious Intentions The Church.	Posted - 2009.05.16 18:48:00 - [41] Originally by: Gypsio III Originally by: Intigo Originally by: Gypsio III Sure. Awesome! Mail me ingame about a time and place - we could even put some ISK on it if you want! I live in Lonetrek lowsec, in the Mara area. I can come down into Black Rise or Placid if you like, but highsec is not an option. Weekday evenings are best for me, but you may see me on at times over the weekend. I'm EU time. How does 100 mill sound? /buys popcorn and sits cloaked in anticipation... __________________________________________ 'Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear intelligent until they speak' __________________________________________
Lasran Tekeal	Posted - 2009.05.16 19:29:00 - [42] I'm just happy to be here.
Anubis Xian Reavers	Posted - 2009.05.16 21:15:00 - [43] Originally by: Gypsio III Originally by: Anubis Xian Originally by: Merin Ryskin PS: you have zero damage reduction when you have zero transversal. By fitting an AB, you have zero transversal against anything but a battleship. See if you can figure out the results of 100% of cruiser/BC dps hitting your lolHawk. First off all, a Hawk vs a BC with neither ship moving isn't going to be hit for 100% dmg 100% of the time by cruiser weapons...unless it has an mwd on. Yes, it will. Zero transversal = full turret damage. Are you trying to suggest that there's a separate loss-of-damage calculation from target sig/turret resolution? I'm not suggesting anything, I'm stating it. You didn't think battleship guns missing frigs was all because of invisible falcon and tracking did you? Put an em/therm tanked Jaguar 20 km away from an Apoc. Neither ship is moving. Fire one of the BS guns and watch the logs. Medium weapons hit more reliably on smaller targets, but it is not a 100% chance even in the most optimum conditions. Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2009.05.16 21:38:00 - [44] It'll hit for full damage. Put a stationary Haloed Claw 1 metre from a sieged Revelation, and it'll hit for full damage. That's how tracking works.
Anubis Xian Reavers	Posted - 2009.05.16 21:56:00 - [45] Originally by: Gypsio III It'll hit for full damage. Put a stationary Haloed Claw 1 metre from a sieged Revelation, and it'll hit for full damage. That's how tracking works. Tracking is only one part of how turrets work. But you go on thinking that and don't take advantage of knowing the rest of it. Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2009.05.16 22:07:00 - [46] No, there is only tracking. There is no separate loss-of-damage calculation from sig/res issues - it acts as a modifier to tracking. Have a look at the tracking guide if you don't believe me.
Anubis Xian Reavers	Posted - 2009.05.16 22:19:00 - [47] Originally by: Gypsio III No, there is only tracking. There is no separate loss-of-damage calculation from sig/res issues - it acts as a modifier to tracking. Have a look at the tracking guide if you don't believe me. The guide hasn't change since I first saw it. And my understanding of how turrets work hasn't either. Signature radius does matter, but as the guide says, it isn't clear how much. Some evidence supports skills modifying the chance with hidden variables. But then, the only way to know for sure is to perform a controlled experiment. Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2009.05.17 04:16:00 - [48] Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 17/05/2009 04:16:21 Originally by: Merdaneth Dear Thorian Baalnorn and other interested readers, below is an analysis of Merin's argument: - Merin thinks AB fits only work against noobs or when you are in a fleet - Merin thinks 90% of EVE PvPers are noobs - Solo fights in EVE make up only 10% of engagements (hence, 90% are fleet fights) You misunderstand completely. AB fits are NOT good in fleets, in fact they are *terrible* in fleets (even more so than solo) because you can only speed tank one target at a time with an AB, so every other ship in the fleet will kill you in seconds. Notice that what I actually said there is "blob", not "fleet". If you're ganking with 10v1 odds, it really doesn't matter if you fit an AB, sheer numbers will ensure that your side wins no matter what comedy ship you bring. This obviously doesn't say anything about ABs, it just says that 10v1 is awesome for your kill/death ratio. Originally by: Anubis Xian First off all, a Hawk vs a BC with neither ship moving isn't going to be hit for 100% dmg 100% of the time by cruiser weapons...unless it has an mwd on. Yes it will. Feel free to test the theory yourself, the Hawk may not take literally 100% damage (due to random chance), but it sure as hell isn't going to get enough damage reduction to change the inevitable "dead in seconds" result. Quote: Second, you are putting too much stock into transversal, which btw is not even the way guns determine if they can track or not. Angular Velocity is what determines if a given turret can track a given target. You can have zero transversal and still miss every time. Please learn how tracking works before making stupid posts. Angular velocity is nothing more than transversal divided by range. If you have zero transversal you have zero angular velocity, and therefore zero damage reduction. Quote: ABs are in theory the best way for a close range frig to fight a larger ship, MWDs make them prone to neuts and scramblers. Assuming you get into scram range. When you fail to do so, you will die in seconds. Quote: AB frigs can get moving at some pretty impressive speeds as well. Granted they would be that much faster with an MWD. No they can not. AB frigates are slower than every cruiser hull, as well as some BCs. -----------
Min Mae	Posted - 2009.05.17 05:11:00 - [49] We all know that most battles take place far from stations and gates... :rolleyes: Covering that last bit of distance around the station or running 12k back to the gate is so difficult without MWD .....
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.05.17 06:05:00 - [50] Originally by: Merin Ryskin You misunderstand completely. AB fits are NOT good in fleets, in fact they are *terrible* in fleets (even more so than solo) because you can only speed tank one target at a time with an AB, so every other ship in the fleet will kill you in seconds. I don't misunderstand at all. I was being ironic. In case you never noticed this about yourself: it is a bit pointless to argue with you. You don't listen to arguments, you propose theories without having done proper research, you mention incorrect things as facts, and worst of all, you feel the need to strengthen your opinion by using words like 'terrible', 'comedy', 'fail' and 'stupid' which, as you well know, have no argumentative value at all. People who know you will understand the irony. Originally by: Merin Ryskin Notice that what I actually said there is "blob", not "fleet". If you're ganking with 10v1 odds, it really doesn't matter if you fit an AB, sheer numbers will ensure that your side wins no matter what comedy ship you bring. This obviously doesn't say anything about ABs, it just says that 10v1 is awesome for your kill/death ratio. If you argue with Merin, it really doesn't matter if you bring 10v1 odds, it really doesn't matter if you bring good arguments. This obviously doesn't say anything about the subject, it just says that Merin can argue forever. If you want me to argue with you, then it would help to become a little less head-strong, be more open to other people's opinions, and reduce your use of terms that judge people. You are a smart person, and much of what you say has value, don't let the strength of your arguments be tainted this much by your favored style of arguing. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.05.17 06:14:00 - [51] Yesterday I was fighting an MWD Crusader in my AB Crusader. I mistimed my scrambler and failed to grab it on approach. Then it chose a fairly wide orbit it ranged between 15-22km: out of range of my scorch. I simply flew straight lines, making occasional course corrections, and occasionally using approach. What happened: he got me to half shields after two minutes of shooting, then he gave up and ran. At his speed in comparison with my speed and my sig radius, only 25% of his shots hit at best. That's not enough for a serious threat. My max AB speed is 1400 m/s. The same tends to happen with rail Taranises, Arty Claws and the like. They will produce a lot of misses if you continue to maneuver while under AB and they are using a MWD. Of course, they can start hitting you by reducing transversal, but this opens up the chance for you to do a quick approach and grab em with your scram. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Blissfull Passion	Posted - 2009.05.17 06:21:00 - [52] wow lots of good info here.
Anubis Xian Reavers	Posted - 2009.05.17 07:16:00 - [53] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Originally by: Anubis Xian First off all, a Hawk vs a BC with neither ship moving isn't going to be hit for 100% dmg 100% of the time by cruiser weapons...unless it has an mwd on. Yes it will. Feel free to test the theory yourself, the Hawk may not take literally 100% damage (due to random chance), but it sure as hell isn't going to get enough damage reduction to change the inevitable "dead in seconds" result. My statement was not wrong. Quote: Quote: Second, you are putting too much stock into transversal, which btw is not even the way guns determine if they can track or not. Angular Velocity is what determines if a given turret can track a given target. You can have zero transversal and still miss every time. Please learn how tracking works before making stupid posts. Angular velocity is nothing more than transversal divided by range. If you have zero transversal you have zero angular velocity, and therefore zero damage reduction. Yet you can have high transversal and low angular velocity. See how that works? As long as the angular velocity of the target does not exceed the tracking of your turrets, you get a 100% hit chance in regards to tracking. Quote: Quote: ABs are in theory the best way for a close range frig to fight a larger ship, MWDs make them prone to neuts and scramblers. Assuming you get into scram range. When you fail to do so, you will die in seconds. That depends on many factors, more than are worth stating here. Quote: Quote: AB frigs can get moving at some pretty impressive speeds as well. Granted they would be that much faster with an MWD. No they can not. AB frigates are slower than every cruiser hull, as well as some BCs. Alright, let's look as some numbers. AB frigs vs mwd cruisers. Using only midslot propulsion and t2 ab/mwd: AB Frigate/MWD Cruiser Vagabond - 2589 Stabber - 2527 Claw - 2050 Crusader - 2032 Malediction - 1990 Ares - 1964 Crow - 1944 Stiletto - 1899 Taranis - 1854 Raptor - 1832 Huginn - 1815 Deimos - 1728 Zealot - 1724 Rapier - 1713 Muninn - 1685 Rupture - 1659 Sacrilege - 1657 Ishtar - 1610 Omen - 1564 Rifter - 1564 Lachesis - 1531 Curse - 1500 Thorax - 1497 Vexor - 1477 Arazu - 1469 Blackbird - 1451 Caracal - 1445 Pilgrim - 1438 Cerberus - 1434 Maller - 1424 Eagle - 1412 Arbitrator - 1406 Jaguar - 1400 Rook - 1392 Tristan - 1349 Falcon - 1334 Moa - 1326 Wolf - 1318 Punisher - 1283 Kestrel - 1257 Merlin - 1227 Ishkur - 1192 Enyo - 1177 Retribution - 1177 Vengeance - 1159 Hawk - 1134 Harpy - 1125 And just to get an idea how close it can be: MWD Vagabond fully fit: 3064 m/s AB Claw fully fit: 2960 m/s AB Crusader fully fit: 2938 m/s None of the above using snakes. Certainly MWDs open up more raw speed and I'm certainly not saying ABs > MWDs. But I can look at the facts. And the facts say that ABs have the potential to perform remarkably well in appropriate situations. All of those cruisers only get slower, while those frigs only get faster. Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
Meridius Dex Amarr Gunship Diplomacy	Posted - 2009.05.17 08:00:00 - [54] Edited by: Meridius Dex on 17/05/2009 08:03:18 As this discussion mirrors another which recently occurred in the S&M forum, I'll repost my response here - seeing as most of the tripe being spewed ITT about ABs is the same extremist absurdity posted there: LOL at Sisi/forum warriors who think the game takes place exclusively at 20 KM with everyone already going their max speed. Since we're pulling numbers out of our asses, I'd like to point out that approximately 90% of all fights in EVE take place on or around gates, with a smaller percentage on stations. This is an important distinction from those fights which occur in "open space" like asteroid belts, facwar plexes or Merin's FFA zones. On gates, ABs are becoming more and more feasible, particularly at the frigate level and combined with scram and/or web. Ships often do indeed land on each other in this game, very often within 10-12KMs. How a fight begins will often dictate whether an AB/scram AF will aggress at all, actually. If my fight against your MWD cruiser starts at greater distance, I simply won't aggress unless it looks like you are MWDing into that 10K area. I think many of you are ignoring that most pvpers in this game still fit close-range, high damage ammo almost exclusively (Scorch lasers being one exception). Most enemies, MWD or not, often close into web/scram range all on their own, even if the fight hasn't already begun there. It is also valid to point out that in open space (like an asteroid belt or facwar plex) that an AB ship is terribly handicapped against a MWD opponent if that precious initial scram cannot be established. It doesn't always mean automatic death, though. It may still be possible for your AB cruiser, for example, to do enough damage to the target kiting him to drive them off. It comes down to the two ships respective tanks vs. gank. In other words, your AB ship may not be able to keep him tackled or dictate range, but you can still survive by driving him off if your guns put him into structure before you. In fact, I do this to Crusaders all the time (just did it again yesterday). In short, if I'm in an AB AF, I don't take her off gates or stations to go warping to planets and asteroid belts because I know a cap-stable (<-- another consideration) MWDing opponent can keep me pinned helplessly at range to either kill me or hold me until his friends get there. Open space engagements are still the domain of the microwarpdrive. CCP have done a great job of making this game very strategic with the changes to webs, scrams and microwarpdrives. One would be a fool to close-mindedly discount that. -- Meridius Dex Visit the Gunship Forums --
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2009.05.17 08:06:00 - [55] Originally by: Anubis Xian <Lots of numbers> You need to say what you are using and how you get those numbers, they seem 'off' compared to what I am seeing (and what I can get in EFT). By the looks of them I'd say you are overloading the AB but no the MWD, which ruins the comparison. What I am seeing (generalised) is that an AB frig is as fast as a MWD BC and the AB Interceptors are as fast as the MWD Cruisers .. roughly. I'll say it again for emphasis: Due to the laxer fittings and better capacitor, the AB/Scram fitted ship wins over the MWD/point ship IF the scram manages to land a hit. It takes a lot of practice to get the scram activated in time and against the better/best opponents it can't be done at all (give us a tackle-range increasing lowslot module!).
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2009.05.17 09:59:00 - [56] Edited by: Gypsio III on 17/05/2009 09:59:45 Originally by: Anubis Xian Originally by: Gypsio III No, there is only tracking. There is no separate loss-of-damage calculation from sig/res issues - it acts as a modifier to tracking. Have a look at the tracking guide if you don't believe me. The guide hasn't change since I first saw it. And my understanding of how turrets work hasn't either. Yes, that's what I'm trying to change. The tracking formula is quite explicit: (1/2)^((((Transv/(RangeTracking))(Sig_Res/Sig_Rad))^2)+((max(0,Range-Optimal))/Falloff)^2) You can go to the tracking guide and plug in target sig 0.1 m and turret scan res 1,000,000 m, but as long as you're below optimal and there's zero transversal, you get 100% damage.
Anubis Xian Reavers	Posted - 2009.05.17 15:56:00 - [57] Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Originally by: Anubis Xian <Lots of numbers> You need to say what you are using and how you get those numbers, they seem 'off' compared to what I am seeing (and what I can get in EFT). By the looks of them I'd say you are overloading the AB but no the MWD, which ruins the comparison. What I am seeing (generalised) is that an AB frig is as fast as a MWD BC and the AB Interceptors are as fast as the MWD Cruisers .. roughly. I'll say it again for emphasis: Due to the laxer fittings and better capacitor, the AB/Scram fitted ship wins over the MWD/point ship IF the scram manages to land a hit. It takes a lot of practice to get the scram activated in time and against the better/best opponents it can't be done at all (give us a tackle-range increasing lowslot module!). I overloaded the ABs because they fight with the expectation to have to compete with MWD ships. MWD pilots don't just overload generally. And like I said, AB frigs only get faster while mwd ship as a whole generally only get slower. The Vaga and other frigs are pretty much the exception. Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
Wang Jing	Posted - 2009.05.17 17:31:00 - [58] I have NEVER been killed because I have been kited by a mwd'ing cruiser or bigger when in a ab/scram Assault Frig. Every time I've landed too far away from a target I've either been able to burn up and catch them or immediately warp off. I have been killed by: Medium Neuts ECM Drones Gangs Its well worth the risk to be able to maintain transversal when in orbit on the target and hence actually be able to kill cruisers/bcs that web you.
crockett EXE Minmatar Mutineers	Posted - 2009.05.17 17:41:00 - [59] Originally by: Merdaneth Perhaps check out this: http://www.battleclinic.com/eve_online/pk/view/player-Hirana+Yoshida-kills.html Alts, you know? I fought that alt the other day and it was a damn good fight. He was flying a Punisher and I was in a Rifter and we both fought down to hull. It was so damn close I didn't get a chance to spam warp for my pod and he got my pod.. As for AB's, I'd use them on my Rupture fits.
Intigo Amarr Endemic Aggression Exalted.	Posted - 2009.05.17 18:49:00 - [60] Edited by: Intigo on 17/05/2009 18:50:31 I wonder how much actual PvP experience Merin has, sure is a lot of "HURF BLURF" and broad general statements. Also, Gypsio - regardless of whether a frigate fits a MWD or an AB, with the dual-web Assault Caracals you fly no close range Interceptor will ever beat you. ;) ___________________ ENEMA, much love. <3
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2009.05.17 20:21:00 - [61] Yeah I know. Your Crusader's ~200 overheated DPS against my unhardened shield had me worried... until I realised that my fifth volley would kill you.
Bingowas hisnamo	Posted - 2009.05.18 01:33:00 - [62] Originally by: edrenbaton2 Originally by: Hirana Yoshida AB + Scrambler beats MWD each and every time ... provided (ie The "IF") you can get that initial 10km range to kill his drive. Most killboards you checked are probably for 0.0 entities and MWD is still considered a requirement 'out there' due to bubbles .. look at what is done in with AB fittings FW (low-sec) to get an idea of its power. http://www.battleclinic.com/eve_online/pk/view/player-Hirana+Yoshida-kills.html Theory warrior detected. Please continue. its so interesting. Ok where i can see low-sec killboard with afterburners? Old dog unable to learn new tricks detected. Granted, AB's arent for every ship, but anyone who doesn't see them in use in PVP at least occasionally regardless of low sec, empire, or 0.0 isn't looking very hard. MWD's are still absolutely necessary in a lot of situations... more than ABs, however there are a lot more uses for AB than there used to be.
UMEE Gunship Diplomacy	Posted - 2009.05.18 07:21:00 - [63] Originally by: Merdaneth If you had only been a member of the Minmatar Militia, you surely wouldn't be laughing. I believe my setups have proven themselves in practice. If you fly them like MWD ships, yes, they don't work. But you need to fly them as AB ships. this is too funny. i actually melted a couple of your minnie friends (who were flying AB frigates) in my mwd ishkur today. do you know why? well, it's simple. they couldnt catch me.
UMEE Gunship Diplomacy	Posted - 2009.05.18 07:25:00 - [64] Originally by: Merdaneth Yesterday I was fighting an MWD Crusader in my AB Crusader. what would you do against an ishkur? 5 light drones on your ass, 24km point, going 2.6km/s without overheating. if you aggressed it, youre finished. you cannot be serious with that fit.
UMEE Gunship Diplomacy	Posted - 2009.05.18 07:38:00 - [65] Edited by: UMEE on 18/05/2009 07:43:26 Originally by: Anubis Xian Alright, let's look as some numbers. AB frigs vs mwd cruisers. ... All of those cruisers only get slower, while those frigs only get faster. sorry, my last reply for now. youre missing the point bud. those frigates may be a little faster, 100-400m/s faster...but that is not enough in pvp. a cruiser pilot will easily control his ship away or toward you at the right moment, then web you. the little extra speed you've got won't be enough to change direction in time. secondly, are you at all thinking about light drones? i dont think you are. even hob II's can go about 3.1km/s, and easily maintain orbit around you. mwd fits can maintain range on cruisers. a few inties can even outrun warrior II's. if you cant, then at least you can warp out. finally, to all those drawing on their mad "pvp experience" to make these silly conclusions about AB's: if youre using an AB in pvp, you simply aren't good enough to compete with those who are experienced. this is why you don't understand why AB's suck. enough said.
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.05.18 08:51:00 - [66] Edited by: Merdaneth on 18/05/2009 08:52:22 Originally by: UMEE so i say, it is you who hasn't tested your AB fits in real pvp. I do believe I have over 500 solo kills using AB ships. I have tested them plenty, have you? I guess not. Also, you might not realize, but we are fighting at the same side in FW. I don't have 'Minnie friends' Originally by: UMEE what would you do against an ishkur? 5 light drones on your ass, 24km point, going 2.6km/s without overheating. if you aggressed it, youre finished. you cannot be serious with that fit. I would do with I have done with all the Ishkur's I destroyed solo. Rely on the overconfidence of pilots like yourself, warp in, lock, point, shoot and watch stare when my Crusader engages them at point blank, then flail to lock me, panic to get their drones out and see watch their armor melt faster then had thought possible: http://www.amarr-empire.net/killboard/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=25675 http://www.amarr-empire.net/killboard/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=22076 http://www.amarr-empire.net/killboard/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=21896 http://www.amarr-empire.net/killboard/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=21121 http://www.amarr-empire.net/killboard/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=17786 I'm not just serious with my fit, I'm deadly serious. Originally by: UMEE even a ranis would destroy you with his 2 hobgoblins As quote above, this fit is deadly serious, here a list of my solo Taranis kills in FW with my AB Crusader: http://www.amarr-empire.net/killboard/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=50631 http://www.amarr-empire.net/killboard/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=25556 http://www.amarr-empire.net/killboard/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=25422 http://www.amarr-empire.net/killboard/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=50632 http://www.amarr-empire.net/killboard/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=25418 http://www.amarr-empire.net/killboard/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=50633 http://www.amarr-empire.net/killboard/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=19467 http://www.amarr-empire.net/killboard/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=17249 http://www.amarr-empire.net/killboard/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15236 Before speed changes: http://www.amarr-empire.net/killboard/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=11387 http://www.amarr-empire.net/killboard/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=11259 http://www.amarr-empire.net/killboard/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=11080 http://www.amarr-empire.net/killboard/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=4303 http://www.amarr-empire.net/killboard/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=2444 http://www.amarr-empire.net/killboard/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=988 My last solo loss to a Taranis is from before FW. Can I see a list of your solo kills with you flying MWD ships against opponents in similar shiptypes? That way everyone can verify your "mad pvp experience"? ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Anubis Xian Reavers	Posted - 2009.05.18 09:18:00 - [67] Originally by: UMEE Edited by: UMEE on 18/05/2009 07:44:41 Originally by: Merdaneth Yesterday I was fighting an MWD Crusader in my AB Crusader. what would you do against an ishkur? 5 light drones on your ass, 24km point, going 2.6km/s without overheating. if you aggressed it, youre finished. you cannot be serious with that fit. even a ranis would destroy you with his 2 hobgoblins What did you plan to do after your drones were destroyed? Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
Intigo Amarr Endemic Aggression Exalted.	Posted - 2009.05.18 09:23:00 - [68] While Merdaneth is a little harsh, he's right. The AB Crusader does a lot better vs Ranises than the MWD Crusader due to the fact that Crusader is no longer a ship that can engage at 10-15k after the Locust + optimal nerf. Although, to be fair, I'm fairly certain that a well-piloted MWD+AB Taranis would beat the Crusader in a 1on1 - MWD to get into range, turn on the AB the instant your MWD is offlined and simply keep at a close range (don't orbit to mess up your tracking). There are not a lot of well-piloted Ranises around though, seeing as a big majority of the people who fly them still think that a 500m orbit is somehow a good idea vs other Interceptors (see Disintregrator's movie where 90% of the Taranises he fights are orbiting and missing half their shots). Some people are far too narrowminded on this forum. AB fits work in some instances. They are not the end be all of PvP though. I have multiple Crusaders lined up in my Hangar with both MWDs and ABs on 'em. I lost my latest AB Crusader to a Rifter of all things. Funniest part is, I lost it after fighting this guy 1on1 once before, winning and telling him that "if he had a Neut he would have killed me" - which, when I returned a week or so later, he obviously did. Bad idea on my part to engage him, I knew his name looked familiar. ;) I capped out when he was just hitting hull - with a MWD I would have capped out way earlier. In hindsight, I should have stopped repairing earlier and simply gone for fullout damage and I may have been able to kill him before capping out. ___________________ ENEMA, much love. <3
Intigo Amarr Endemic Aggression Exalted.	Posted - 2009.05.18 09:29:00 - [69] Originally by: UMEE secondly, are you at all thinking about light drones? i dont think you are. even hob II's can go about 3.1km/s, and easily maintain orbit around you. mwd fits can maintain range on cruisers. a few inties can even outrun warrior II's. if you cant, then at least you can warp out. finally, to all those drawing on their mad "pvp experience" to make these silly conclusions about AB's: if youre using an AB in pvp, you simply aren't good enough to compete with those who are experienced. this is why you don't understand why AB's suck. enough said. ... You are so clueless it hurts. I thought Gunship Diplomacy were a little smarter than this. Is this your main? Because...wow, those are some pityful PvP stats. I think you may want to get a little more experience before you talk about these things. ABs do not suck. They have a role just as every other module ingame has a role (save for some really terrible drones and whatnot). They are not the best for every role, infact they are usually not the best choice at all seeing as the frigates you wish to use them on are primarily tacklers in fleets. But that does not make them a bad choice for solo work. I am absolutely amazed at the sheer amount of stupidity in this thread. Some of you should avoid commenting on topics that you do not have the slightest clue about. ___________________ ENEMA, much love. <3
Anubis Xian Reavers	Posted - 2009.05.18 09:29:00 - [70] Originally by: UMEE Edited by: UMEE on 18/05/2009 07:43:26 Originally by: Anubis Xian Alright, let's look as some numbers. AB frigs vs mwd cruisers. ... All of those cruisers only get slower, while those frigs only get faster. sorry, my last reply for now. youre missing the point bud. those frigates may be a little faster, 100-400m/s faster...but that is not enough in pvp. a cruiser pilot will easily control his ship away or toward you at the right moment, then web you. the little extra speed you've got won't be enough to change direction in time. You may not be aware of this, but MWDs add significant mass to ships that already maneuver much slower than frigates. Another thing you may not be aware of is that while you have that AB frig webbed and 24km disrupted, he has your mwd completely disabled AND you webbed on top of that. The AB frig in this case has a much larger mobility advantage. Quote: secondly, are you at all thinking about light drones? i dont think you are. even hob II's can go about 3.1km/s, and easily maintain orbit around you. mwd fits can maintain range on cruisers. a few inties can even outrun warrior II's. if you cant, then at least you can warp out. As said before, light drones can explode. Quote: finally, to all those drawing on their mad "pvp experience" to make these silly conclusions about AB's: if youre using an AB in pvp, you simply aren't good enough to compete with those who are experienced. this is why you don't understand why AB's suck. enough said. You do realize the MWD is a crutch right? It gives even the worst players an edge. Frankly I'm still of the mind that CCP should never have caved to the playerbase, instead making them more into the module they were intended to be rather than into what they were not supposed to be. Oh and in your silly tirade, you overlooked the fact I never said ABs were superior to MWDs. I am one of those weird people that can find a viable use for different fits and don't chase the FOTM. But keep this in mind: MWD ships only get slower, especially with plates. AB ships only get faster. MWDs have their place and so do ABs. Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
UMEE Gunship Diplomacy	Posted - 2009.05.19 00:40:00 - [71] Edited by: UMEE on 19/05/2009 00:46:27 Edited by: UMEE on 19/05/2009 00:43:41 fail, fail, fail. yes, gunship are an awesome bunch of people. and believe me, they dont fit AB's on their inties. rofl. mind you, an AB has some use on the rifter in 1v1 frig combat... but thats about it. someone mentioned blowing the drones up, and what do i do then? 1. you wouldnt down the drones fast enough in a lol ab sader...theyd be on top of you so fast. 2. if you did, my rails would finish you.
UMEE Gunship Diplomacy	Posted - 2009.05.19 00:46:00 - [72] Originally by: Merdaneth stuff sorry you spent so much time finding those KM's. i didnt read a single one. i already told u man, u were fighting noobs. i dont care what u killed, and how many.
Val Erian Gallente Azure Horizon Federate Militia	Posted - 2009.05.19 01:07:00 - [73] UMee, your ...I dont want to say...but lets say sadly ill informed. Espcialy since pilots in your OWN CORP use the AB Crusader setup. To good effect I might add since one popped my MWD Sader using it..... I would link his setup but since you dont bother looking at factual backup i wont. AB are a perfectly viable option for frigs,dessies and some interceptors. They have limitations like everything .
Noskill McCheese Minmatar	Posted - 2009.05.19 16:25:00 - [74] I always thought G.DIP was pretty cool on top of being competent and respected opponents, but that was before they let umee join. It must have been an accident.
UMEE Gunship Diplomacy	Posted - 2009.05.19 20:09:00 - [75] look, it's a game. im posting my opinions and not those of gdip. to me, arguing is fun sometimes and there was no ill intent behind my words. while my tone is argumentative, i dont feel it's particularly disrespectful. all im saying is that you may not have tested out your builds sufficiently against experienced opponents. im not putting down anyone's religion or mother. but i can see why it may come across as that over the internets, and with people taking games a little too seriously. getting convoed about this in game is really silly imho. take your AB's and leave me alone please . i dont wanna be a part of any politics...it's a little too hardcore for me. i was just trying to help the OP.
Intigo Amarr Endemic Aggression Exalted.	Posted - 2009.05.19 20:58:00 - [76] Originally by: UMEE look, it's a game. im posting my opinions and not those of gdip. to me, arguing is fun sometimes and there was no ill intent behind my words. while my tone is argumentative, i dont feel it's particularly disrespectful. all im saying is that you may not have tested out your builds sufficiently against experienced opponents. im not putting down anyone's religion or mother. but i can see why it may come across as that over the internets, and with people taking games a little too seriously. getting convoed about this in game is really silly imho. take your AB's and leave me alone please . i dont wanna be a part of any politics...it's a little too hardcore for me. i was just trying to help the OP. There's a difference between expressing a well thought out opinion and just being an argumentive, ill-informed ****. You are the latter. The sooner you realize it, the sooner we won't have to endure your posts. If UMEE really is your main no wonder you have no idea what you're talking about. ___________________ ENEMA, much love. <3
Iece Quaan Caldari Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.05.19 21:15:00 - [77] Unfortunately for us, Merdaneth has the record to back up his claims. =P When I was an interceptor ace years ago ( before my long break ) I flew similar fits to what he uses.. and they're deadly.
Veshta Yoshida Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.05.19 21:25:00 - [78] Originally by: Intigo If UMEE really is your main no wonder you have no idea what you're talking about. doesn't and shouldn't matter. Everyone are entitled to their opinion. AB works for some and MWD for others, that is all there is to it really.
Tesha Muron	Posted - 2009.05.19 21:32:00 - [79] It is interesting how she was all serious about her space ships, and then when faced with an overwhelming body of evidence and opinion to the contrary decided to dismiss it out of hand. Then ask why everyone was so serious about the space ship game.
Anubis Xian Reavers	Posted - 2009.05.19 22:22:00 - [80] Originally by: Tesha Muron It is interesting how she was all serious about her space ships, and then when faced with an overwhelming body of evidence and opinion to the contrary decided to dismiss it out of hand. Then ask why everyone was so serious about the space ship game. Ain't it just? Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
Jodie Amille Gunship Diplomacy	Posted - 2009.05.20 03:32:00 - [81] I and several other in our corp have flown AB fit inties/frigs/cruisers to quite a high degree of success. You need to pick your targets but no moreso than with mwd variants. Particularly in lowsec they are a viable option. --------
Anubis Xian Reavers	Posted - 2009.05.20 04:00:00 - [82] Originally by: Jodie Amille I and several other in our corp have flown AB fit inties/frigs/cruisers to quite a high degree of success. You need to pick your targets but no moreso than with mwd variants. Particularly in lowsec they are a viable option. Does UMEE participate? Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
Jodie Amille Gunship Diplomacy	Posted - 2009.05.20 06:38:00 - [83] Originally by: Anubis Xian Originally by: Jodie Amille I and several other in our corp have flown AB fit inties/frigs/cruisers to quite a high degree of success. You need to pick your targets but no moreso than with mwd variants. Particularly in lowsec they are a viable option. Does UMEE participate? I posted here to put a stop to the trolling and let healthy discussion get back on track. Get over yourself. I will also add that in gangs MWD is always the answer. For solo AB has it's uses for sure. --------
Meridius Dex Amarr Gunship Diplomacy	Posted - 2009.05.20 06:52:00 - [84] And, yes, many of us do fly AB frigs (Ti and T2) with great success. In fact, as indicated earlier, we do indeed have one top gun who truly flies nothing BUT the AB sader.. and he kills damn near everything in sight with it. Me, I see MWDs as a necessary evil: they suck cap, they suck grid, they suck agility -- basically, they just suck. But they are imperative on many ships, including most anything in the cruiser to battlecruiser hull range. I have fits that absolutely rely on the speed provided by MWD and I have other fits that absolutely depend upon the AB for its reliability against scrams, as well for sig tanking. -- Meridius Dex Visit the Gunship Forums --
Anubis Xian Reavers	Posted - 2009.05.20 07:34:00 - [85] Originally by: Jodie Amille Originally by: Anubis Xian Originally by: Jodie Amille I and several other in our corp have flown AB fit inties/frigs/cruisers to quite a high degree of success. You need to pick your targets but no moreso than with mwd variants. Particularly in lowsec they are a viable option. Does UMEE participate? I posted here to put a stop to the trolling and let healthy discussion get back on track. Get over yourself. I will also add that in gangs MWD is always the answer. For solo AB has it's uses for sure. A simple 'no' would have sufficed. Get over yourself. Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
Veshta Yoshida Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.05.20 08:25:00 - [86] Let me quote a wise comment from earlier (back needs a pat once in a while) Originally by: Veshta Yoshida AB works for some and MWD for others, that is all there is to it really. A lot of the proponents of AB fittings are fighting in FW. The rules differ greatly out here as there are a lot of warp-to-zero bottlenecks so the starting range is less of a factor and drive type largely irrelevant. I still use MWD for general hunting, but once an enemy is identified and located I have found the AB improves survivability .. at least against MWD ships. It is still situational so no clear cut rule, just my preference.

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