Frigate balancing:
GÇóIncursus
GÇóMerlin
GÇóPunisher
GÇóTormentor

Wait, hold on, am I reading this right? Tormentor gets twice the drones of the Incursus? Sooo, it's official? Amarr are the new drone masters and Gallente are what exactly?

[quote=Jame Jarl Retief]I do hope CCP isn't going to change the Imicus into the new squatting 'pooper' model they showed at fanfest though. The art-devs' crusade against asymmetry is getting ridiculous.

Wait, hold on, am I reading this right? Tormentor gets twice the drones of the Incursus? Sooo, it's official? Amarr are the new drone masters and Gallente are what exactly?

Wait, hold on, am I reading this right? Tormentor gets twice the drones of the Incursus? Sooo, it's official? Amarr are the new drone masters and Gallente are what exactly?

An important point: the current defined role for these ships (merlin is a sniper, incursus is a glass cannon) may not work with the new balance. These ships are meant to be the combat frigate backbone of a fleet.

The Navitas is supposed to become a full drone frigate (guessing a wing of 5 with no guns).

An important point: the current defined role for these ships (merlin is a sniper, incursus is a glass cannon) may not work with the new balance. These ships are meant to be the combat frigate backbone of a fleet.

Rifter

armorHP: 351.0 => 400.0
capacity: 130.0 => 140.0
hp: 336.0 => 350.0
maxVelocity: 353.0 => 355.0
rechargeRate: 187500.0 => 125000.0
shieldCapacity: 391.0 => 450.0

Where did you see this about the Navitas? Its not on Sisi.

1) I can't believe the Rifter got faster and better, already hands down the best T1 frig.
2) I can't believe the incurses got slower despite all the issues with blaster's short range and time to get there.
3) I can't believe that the scan resolution of the Incurses got lowered. I mean, if Gallente are supposed to be the scan resolution race/dampeners then shouldn't they have the highest scan res of any race? Kind of like Caldari seem to have the highest sensor strength? They just made this a much less valuable tackle ship.
4) Why does the Atron even mention mining in the description, always wondered that?
5) Hate the armor repair bonus. I mean really? Isn't it fail enough on the Myrm and Hyperion. Lets see, a close in tackler that must come into neut range to do its job, and lets active rep it. Great. So much for tackling anything other than frigs and maybe some cruisers. Oh i know I'll put a cap booster on it, then I lose web and once I'm scrammed I lose all speed. Lets nerf the speed some more too. Oh and hybrids still need cap to shoot, so now the drones pwn me. Very frustrated with all this. What's the vision here CCP?

Need to do ALL t1 frigates at once else this is going to cause a **** storm once live. Going to have 5mini afs, and then a bunch of **** for the rest with most probably a 6+ month waiting period till another handful of ships are given attention that they have needed for years upon years upon years.

i am dissapoint,i dont have gunnery skills except weapon up.but i do have max missiles skills,and only caldari ship skills.so what ships do i loose instanly because of ccp`s poor decisions,


merlin (wont be able to fitt rocket launchers now)
cormorant (only turret slots :( , i am very dissapoint about that,every other race has bonuses and slots for what they are focused on)
ferox (no bonuses for missiles,altough i can fitt 5 missile launchers )
rokh (do i really need to say??only 4 turret slots,and no bonus damage for them)
raptor,eagle,naga etc.


compared to minmatar : all their ships can use projectiles no matter what,and they have enough turret slots and bonuses to worth flying.

compared to gallente : all gallente ships have turret slots no matter what,except for eris and lachesis,but they also have enough turret slots.

compared to amarr : all t1 amarr ships will have only turret slots.some t2 ships are specialized on missiles like vengeance,malediction,sacrilege,damnation.<<----this doesnt really fair either.

please ccp,restore balance,human kind will be greatefull for your work

After just the listed changes, Rifter would still be king but Amarr would have a secondary combat frig.

What bothers me about this is, how can this be considered "balanced" even by the furthest stretch of the imagination? When one ship is quite obviously better than another, and this is after the supposed rebalance?

Don't get me wrong, I don't want all races to have identical ships. But this is hardly balanced, the way it is now on SiSi. Especially the Gallente active rep bonus, we basically get pigeonholed into a single tank type or we have to sacrifice the bonus. And it's not like this failure is new - Myrmidon and Hyperion had this bonus for a long while now, and neither ship sees much use.

I liked the Tormentor as a ninja cargo ship.

Myrmidon and Hyperion had this bonus for a long while now, and neither ship sees much use.

i am dissapoint,i dont have gunnery skills except weapon up.but i do have max missiles skills,and only caldari ship skills.so what ships do i loose instanly because of ccp`s poor decisions,


merlin (wont be able to fitt rocket launchers now)
cormorant (only turret slots :( , i am very dissapoint about that,every other race has bonuses and slots for what they are focused on)
ferox (no bonuses for missiles,altough i can fitt 5 missile launchers )
rokh (do i really need to say??only 4 turret slots,and no bonus damage for them)
raptor,eagle,naga etc.

i am dissapoint,i dont have gunnery skills except weapon up.but i do have max missiles skills,and only caldari ship skills.so what ships do i loose instanly because of ccp`s poor decisions,

ferox (no bonuses for missiles,altough i can fitt 5 missile launchers )
rokh (do i really need to say??only 4 turret slots,and no bonus damage for them)

1/10 cannot tell if serious

Incursus:
10% Small Hybrid Turret Falloff
5% Small Hybrid Turret Damage
10% Armor Repairer Effectiveness

Let me say it another way, in form of a question:

What do you see more often: Drake, Hurricane or Myrmidon? Note, on EVE Killboards Drake is #1, Hurricane is #2 and Myrmidon does not appear on the list of top 20 at all.

What do you see more often: Maelstrom, Abaddon or Hyperion? Note, on EVE Killboards Maelstrom is #12, Abaddon is #6 and Hyperion does not appear on the list of top 20 at all (neither does Dominix or Megathron, for that matter).

If you want to look at frigate hulls, Rifter is #7, Merlin #16. Incursus, surprise surprise, is not on the list.

If these ships are so great, wouldn't at least ONE of them appear on the top 20? As it is, there's not a single solitary Gallente hull in the top 20 list right now. Not a single one. And that's what we call "balance"?

I'm sorry CCP but this is just crap. The falloff bonus is what makes the Incursus good and we can clearly see how awesome active tank bonuses are on the Brutix and Hyperion. Namely, except for T3 boosted 1vsMany lolfights, for nothing. And don't even get me started on how ******* easy it is to alpha a frigate...

If you want an active tanking frig take the Tristan. It's two *I-don't-need-cap-to-shoot-and-shoot-out-to-the-edge-of-scram-range-too* missile slots are far more useful for that role as well.

If you want an active tank bonus put it on the Tristan and don't neuter the Incursus.

Range is what it let's stand out and what makes it useful, not tanking capabilities. If you want the latter grab a Tristan, which is already a good active tanker.


I'm a big fan of active tanks on frigates myself, but that is not what the Incursus excels at. Blaster frigates get kited within scram range and the falloff bonus helps to offset it. Even more so it let's the Incursus kite within that range itself. An active tank bonus doesn't even come close in versatility to this, especially when the new slot layout will make it a good active tanker even without the rep bonus.

Gank at close range is the strong point of the Incursus. Not tanking. And the rep bonus will offset that. I'm sorry but that additional TEs can be fitted is bollocks too when I could have EVEN MORE range with the falloff bonus. Or even fit an EANM or ANP to boost my local tank all the while still having a range advantage. Or god forbid fit a MFS.



Seriously, what do you expect from a bonused frigate level tank that's worth the loss of range and versatility?

In a 1vs1 situation against another frigate you benefit far more from a quick gank than a dragged out slugfest with a laughable bonused frigate tank. Against a cruiser or bigger you don't even need a bonused tank once you're close and if you're not close even the rep bonus won't save you.

Outside of 1on1s the rep bonus will do frak for you.



Case in point how stupid this bonus is are the Brutix and Hyperion. The Brutix tanks laughably bad while doing pathetic damage at even more pathetic ranges when active armor tank fit. That's why everyone shield fits it or goes straight to the Myrmidon. And the Hyperion with an active armor tank is only useful because it can tank about 3.000 DPS with a T3 booster. Do you think the Incursus will tank 3k DPS? No it won't.



Active tanks are fun and useful but the Incursus is a gank boat. Not a tanker.

Give that 10% rep bonus to the Tristan. It's almost perfectly suited for that role with 2/3 of its weapons being capless and already having a good slot layout for tanking which can be improved upon. But a tank bonus on the Incursus is nuts.

Let me say it another way, in form of a question:

What do you see more often: Drake, Hurricane or Myrmidon? Note, on EVE Killboards Drake is #1, Hurricane is #2 and Myrmidon does not appear on the list of top 20 at all.

What do you see more often: Maelstrom, Abaddon or Hyperion? Note, on EVE Killboards Maelstrom is #12, Abaddon is #6 and Hyperion does not appear on the list of top 20 at all (neither does Dominix or Megathron, for that matter).

If you want to look at frigate hulls, Rifter is #7, Merlin #16. Incursus, surprise surprise, is not on the list.

If these ships are so great, wouldn't at least ONE of them appear on the top 20? As it is, there's not a single solitary Gallente hull in the top 20 list right now. Not a single one. And that's what we call "balance"?

I love how you conveniently only post 3 races in your examples, making it appear gallente are the odd one out.

I'm not seeing too many prophecy's and raven's in PvP either buddy ^^

[quote=Copine Callmeknau]right and we all know how the nyx, moros, thanny and erebus are terrible pvp caps or how the lachesis and arazu are never necessary for anything, etc.

Where did you see this about the Navitas? Its not on Sisi.

1) I can't believe the Rifter got faster and better, already hands down the best T1 frig.
2) I can't believe the incurses got slower despite all the issues with blaster's short range and time to get there.
3) I can't believe that the scan resolution of the Incurses got lowered. I mean, if Gallente are supposed to be the scan resolution race/dampeners then shouldn't they have the highest scan res of any race? Kind of like Caldari seem to have the highest sensor strength? They just made this a much less valuable tackle ship.
4) Why does the Atron even mention mining in the description, always wondered that?
5) Hate the armor repair bonus. I mean really? Isn't it fail enough on the Myrm and Hyperion. Lets see, a close in tackler that must come into neut range to do its job, and lets active rep it. Great. So much for tackling anything other than frigs and maybe some cruisers. Oh i know I'll put a cap booster on it, then I lose web and once I'm scrammed I lose all speed. Lets nerf the speed some more too. Oh and hybrids still need cap to shoot, so now the drones pwn me. Very frustrated with all this. What's the vision here CCP?

Riiiight, let's drag a mothership, a dreadnaught and a carrier into a discussion about frigates, battlecruisers and battleships.

And while yes, Lachesis and Arazu are quite nice, they're not the kind of ships that make it to top 20 most used. Which means what, exactly? That's the game is well balanced?

Seriously guys, you can dance around the issue all you like. Simple fact (supported by data) is that if all 4 races were balanced, then the distribution of the ships in top 20 would be roughly the same. I'm talking +/-10-15% difference. Instead, we are seeing a hugely skewed list, with literally zero Gallente ships on it. This has got to mean something.

Heck, don't believe me? Go look at CCP slide from FanFest that clearly says Gallente ships are the worst out of all 4 races when it comes to subcaps. This isn't me talking, this is CCP itself.

the only this i see is that Amarr no longer will have an mining Frigat.... Great job CCP.

im glad im not a new player to eve... with nothing to start out in.

Seriously guys, you can dance around the issue all you like. Simple fact (supported by data) is that if all 4 races were balanced, then the distribution of the ships in top 20 would be roughly the same. I'm talking +/-10-15% difference. Instead, we are seeing a hugely skewed list, with literally zero Gallente ships on it. This has got to mean something.

Heck, don't believe me? Go look at CCP slide from FanFest that clearly says Gallente ships are the worst out of all 4 races when it comes to subcaps. This isn't me talking, this is CCP itself.

So with the removal of the Amarr mining frigate how does that change the Tutorial Missions for Industry?
New players will be given a ship in that mission now to go and mine in and it will have combat bonuses instead.

I like the idea of CCP removing the teir system but it really seems like these frigates are a rush to get something out instead of sitting and thinking about all the problems before hand.
I'd rather wait until winter and have all the frigates changes sent out at once so we have some context on what these ships are meant to be doing in their class.

Let me say it another way, in form of a question:

What do you see more often: Drake, Hurricane or Myrmidon? Note, on EVE Killboards Drake is #1, Hurricane is #2 and Myrmidon does not appear on the list of top 20 at all.

What do you see more often: Maelstrom, Abaddon or Hyperion? Note, on EVE Killboards Maelstrom is #12, Abaddon is #6 and Hyperion does not appear on the list of top 20 at all (neither does Dominix or Megathron, for that matter).

If you want to look at frigate hulls, Rifter is #7, Merlin #16. Incursus, surprise surprise, is not on the list.

If these ships are so great, wouldn't at least ONE of them appear on the top 20? As it is, there's not a single solitary Gallente hull in the top 20 list right now. Not a single one. And that's what we call "balance"?

But the Rokh doesn't need a damage bonus. If there is one ship I hope CCP leave alone, its the Rokh.