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Salfulon	Posted - 2009.05.18 02:57:00 - [1] Edited by: Salfulon on 18/05/2009 02:58:30 Edited by: Salfulon on 18/05/2009 02:58:05 I am forced to ask why CCP haven't completely revamped their mining game mechanics yet. It's no longer an effective primary means of mineral acquisition and currently yields less isk per hour than mission-running. When a specialised mining character with a year of industrial skills under their belt and an expensive tech 2 mining barge makes less than half as much isk as a six month old pilot in his first battleship, it's a clear indicator that something is wrong. We've had complete revamps of ship hitpoints, ECM, missions and a number of other game elements and yet we're still using the same boring old mining system. The mechanics of mining are in dire need of a complete overhaul to breathe new life into a part of EVE that's gone stale with time. Plans for system-wide asteroid belts, comet mining and a more interactive mining experience have been laying on the drawing board for as long as I can remember. Isn't it about time those plans were implemented?
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.05.18 03:47:00 - [2] Edited by: Akita T on 18/05/2009 03:47:03 Well, hello there... The original thread linked is nearly 2 years old... And the ideas are much older still... No, nothing ever came of it... EVE issues\|Mining revamp\|Build stuff\|Make ISK
Bloody Rabbit	Posted - 2009.05.18 03:56:00 - [3] I remember a few years ago doing mining ops with 0.0 alliances but I'm not sure if any of them do that with the pricing so out of whack. Mission loot, the loot that drop from the rats, needs to be changed. I believe a simply fix would be to have the rats drop only meta 1-4 loot. That would force the change in T1 manufacturing and (please don't flame if this is wrong) lower the mineral output from the refining of items as the higher meta don't refine for as much as the T1 items do.
Clansworth Good Rock Materials	Posted - 2009.05.18 04:50:00 - [4] Edited by: Clansworth on 18/05/2009 04:50:32 Originally by: Bloody Rabbit I remember a few years ago doing mining ops with 0.0 alliances but I'm not sure if any of them do that with the pricing so out of whack. Mission loot, the loot that drop from the rats, needs to be changed. I believe a simply fix would be to have the rats drop only meta 1-4 loot. That would force the change in T1 manufacturing and (please don't flame if this is wrong) lower the mineral output from the refining of items as the higher meta don't refine for as much as the T1 items do. Not entirely correct. I'm pretty sure meta 1-4 refine for exactly the same as meta 1 in most cases. I, personally, would like to see a serious nerf to scrapmetal processing. Give it a max return of like 75% or something along those lines. This would move mined minerals a bit higher in the profitability, and would of been a more realistic fix to min compression than making some of the tech 1 modules stupidly large. Intel Boost
Sim Cognito	Posted - 2009.05.18 08:07:00 - [5] I agree that the mining system begs for a revamp.The changes that Akita T proposed in her thread are interesting too and they would definetely ruin macro miners!Also I believe that this issue should be brought up by the CSM which we are electing now
Liranan M'8'S Frontal Impact	Posted - 2009.05.18 08:16:00 - [6] After logging into the forums, thanks CCP, I am able to say that I, too, would love to mine Veldspar in 0.0. Those rocks with huge density really make me drool, after all there isn't much else to mine is there? Farjung is my God You people need to open your eyes and read threads before you mindlessly spam the New Thread link.
Callista Omenswarm Astronautical Engineering	Posted - 2009.05.18 13:27:00 - [7] Edited by: Callista Omenswarm on 18/05/2009 13:27:52 Originally by: Salfulon When a specialised mining character with a year of industrial skills under their belt and an expensive tech 2 mining barge makes less than half as much isk as a six month old pilot in his first battleship, 12 months? it barely takes that time to get into a hulk, training all the combat skills to a decent level takes a lot longer than getting into a hulk. Then there's that 'expensive tech 2 mining barge'... know of any level 4 mission ships you can cobble together for 150mil? Most are have fits far in excess of that, the CNR is at least twice that amount. So, mission running one has to carefully plan and maintain tank and DPS, prioritise targets, pull aggro, etc... The hulk flies to a belt, points at a roid, rinse and repeat. So why on earth do miners deserve to get paid more for less work, less risk, less skills and less outlay?
Lukriss	Posted - 2009.05.18 14:00:00 - [8] Originally by: Callista Omenswarm 12 months? it barely takes that time to get into a hulk, training all the combat skills to a decent level takes a lot longer than getting into a hulk. Then there's that 'expensive tech 2 mining barge'... know of any level 4 mission ships you can cobble together for 150mil? Most are have fits far in excess of that, the CNR is at least twice that amount. So, mission running one has to carefully plan and maintain tank and DPS, prioritise targets, pull aggro, etc... The hulk flies to a belt, points at a roid, rinse and repeat. So why on earth do miners deserve to get paid more for less work, less risk, less skills and less outlay? Because they don't get standings for mining. Also a well fitted hulk for 0.0 cost about the same as a cheap raven fit which will yield AT THE VERY LEAST the same amount of isk/hr completely risk free and without the logistics of having to haul/refine ore.
Karadan Kaarwen	Posted - 2009.05.18 14:17:00 - [9] I agree with the revamp idea. I first joined Eve about 1 year and 3 months ago. I created an industrial character because i wanted to mine and build stuff Based upon previous MMO experiences). I quickly came to realise that there is hardly any money to be made in empire as a miner. I was also told that there isn't much point me trying to actually craft anything because the money involved is staggering. So, i bumped up my combat skills and flew missions. I eventually got me a Hulk and started mining the fringe of empire in 0.5 systems. I was still only earning a fraction of what i could mission running by mining Kernite. The hulk started getting dusty until i moved to 0.0 The mining ops in 0.0 were worth it imo. Even though it didn't last long because we'd been war dec'd. I enjoyed (finally) being able to make lots of cash through getting ABC's. There was one weekend where i netted 400mill from solo mining with my megathron waiting 400km from the belt (i only use 1 account). I can currently pull up 20mill an hour without fleet bonuses if ABC's are aplenty. So, the mining does need a revamp because you can't do squat with it in empire. All roid belts are pebbles. Mining in 0.0 is pretty cool, especially if you use an orca, which i now do.
Capn' Krunch Gallente Life. Universe. Everything.	Posted - 2009.05.18 15:16:00 - [10] Originally by: Callista Omenswarm know of any level 4 mission ships you can cobble together for 150mil? Yes, you can build a very capable mission running dominix on that budget. >-------------------------------------------------< Asteroids are my breakfast cereal.
Kei Kanatawa	Posted - 2009.05.18 15:25:00 - [11] Mining does need to be fixed, however I'm not a fan of the idea of putting all ores into all belts. This would bring down some of the incentive for moving out to 0.0. I currently reside in highsec, but I have lived the 0.0 life and mining the high end ores with a fleet op is indeed worth it and one of the intended feaures of the fleet mechanic. With fleet bonuses from an orca and a pimped out mining foreman the amount of ore that can be mined is staggering compared to a single miner with a dedicated hauler. It's an MMO and it's designed to reward those who work together. I agree that mining needs to have some features revisited, however I don't want to see individual miners suddenly become self sufficient ROID BELT GODS. That would kind of defeat the purpose of the game.....just my 2 cents.
Callista Omenswarm Astronautical Engineering	Posted - 2009.05.18 16:23:00 - [12] Originally by: Lukriss Because they don't get standings for mining. Also a well fitted hulk for 0.0 cost about the same as a cheap raven fit which will yield AT THE VERY LEAST the same amount of isk/hr completely risk free and without the logistics of having to haul/refine ore. Same amount of ISK once you factor in loot, salvage, LP, etc.. none of which require any kind of logistics and level 4s are 'Risk free'?
Callista Omenswarm Astronautical Engineering	Posted - 2009.05.18 16:34:00 - [13] Originally by: Capn' Krunch Yes, you can build a very capable mission running dominix on that budget. But then you're talking all those extra skills: drones, large rails, which eve mon says is about 20days over a hulk for one of my alts. That's before we talk T2 equip.
Lukriss	Posted - 2009.05.18 16:49:00 - [14] Originally by: Callista Omenswarm Same amount of ISK once you factor in loot, salvage, LP, etc.. none of which require any kind of logistics and level 4s are 'Risk free'? You can reprocess all the loot, sell mins+salvage+faction ammo from your station, no problem, no logistics NEEDED and yes... lvl 4s are Risk free? the most dangerous thing that can happen is you stealing back from someone who probes you down and steal your loot.
Catherine Frasier	Posted - 2009.05.18 16:58:00 - [15] Originally by: Callista Omenswarm So why on earth do miners deserve to get paid more for less work, less risk, less skills and less outlay? It's not a question of getting paid more. It's a question of there being a decent return for the effort. Mining is supposed to be a viable career. Nobody is asking that it be the most lucrative, just that it actually be a valid option.
Callista Omenswarm Astronautical Engineering	Posted - 2009.05.18 17:00:00 - [16] Originally by: Lukriss You can reprocess all the loot, sell mins+salvage+faction ammo from your station, no problem, no logistics NEEDED And that's different from docking and unloading and reprocing your ore how exactly? Originally by: Lukriss and yes... lvl 4s are Risk free? Right, because empire belt rats hit as hard as mission NPCs. L4 Missions have greater risks, greater requirements and require more of your time to complete. Mining can be done semi-afk, hence the weaker comparative payout. As a miner, heck I'd love to earn 30mil an hour for mining, so patch that in already CCP. As a sane-minded individual however, I can't think why mining deserves to have even an equal pay to mission running.
Catherine Frasier	Posted - 2009.05.18 17:07:00 - [17] Originally by: Callista Omenswarm As a sane-minded individual however, I can't think why mining deserves to have even an equal pay to mission running. And who suggested that?
Callista Omenswarm Astronautical Engineering	Posted - 2009.05.18 17:08:00 - [18] Originally by: Catherine Frasier It's a question of there being a decent return for the effort. Mining is supposed to be a viable career. Nobody is asking that it be the most lucrative, just that it actually be a valid option. And the fact these forums continually see posts complaining about the lack of roids in the busier systems prove everyone is turning away from mining because it isn't a lucrative career? 9Mil+ an hour in a hulk sounds fairly decent to me.
Callista Omenswarm Astronautical Engineering	Posted - 2009.05.18 17:09:00 - [19] Originally by: Catherine Frasier Originally by: Callista Omenswarm As a sane-minded individual however, I can't think why mining deserves to have even an equal pay to mission running. And who suggested that? OP Originally by: Salfulon and currently yields less isk per hour than mission-running.
Catherine Frasier	Posted - 2009.05.18 17:18:00 - [20] Originally by: Callista Omenswarm Originally by: Catherine Frasier Originally by: Callista Omenswarm As a sane-minded individual however, I can't think why mining deserves to have even an equal pay to mission running. And who suggested that? OP Originally by: Salfulon and currently yields less isk per hour than mission-running. Technically that's called quote mining. It's when you take just a fragment of what someone said, strip it of context and imply that they meant something other than what they actually did. The complete complaint was: "It's no longer an effective primary means of mineral acquisition and currently yields less isk per hour than mission-running. When a specialised mining character with a year of industrial skills under their belt and an expensive tech 2 mining barge makes less than half as much isk as a six month old pilot in his first battleship" It's a far more nuanced concern than some narrow ISK-per-hour comparison to mission running.
Callista Omenswarm Astronautical Engineering	Posted - 2009.05.18 17:46:00 - [21] Edited by: Callista Omenswarm on 18/05/2009 17:46:14 Originally by: Catherine Frasier It's a far more nuanced concern than some narrow ISK-per-hour comparison to mission running. Right, but as pointed out, it remains about the only 'true' statement in that paragraph as the whole thing deliberately tries to distort and exagerate the reality to show mining in a bad light. Why else mention the 'expensive t2 mining barge' when it costs comparatively the same as that 'first battleship' or having 'a year of industrial skills under their belt' when you are in a hulk in 2-3months. There's absolutely nothing 'neuanced' about the post in the slightest.
Abrazzar	Posted - 2009.05.18 19:27:00 - [22] It's not that the OP is the only one with ideas. -------- Ideas for: Mining
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.05.18 19:51:00 - [23] Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 18/05/2009 19:55:28 Quote: So, mission running one has to carefully plan and maintain tank and DPS, prioritise targets, pull aggro, etc... I loled Quote: So why on earth do miners deserve to get paid more for less work, less risk, less skills and less outlay? Never occurred to you that this is NOT real life? Unlike real life, people can / want to play what brings them fun, if one game feature is much less fun and also less rewarding, fewer and fewer will play it. This might not bother you, but it's bad for the game design. Quote: And the fact these forums continually see posts complaining about the lack of roids in the busier systems prove everyone is turning away from mining because it isn't a lucrative career? Don't even try to put the thousands bots on the same balance as genuine players. Edit: also guess WHY people install bots instead of PLAYING a profession. Because it's boring, because it has no growth. The natural evolution, to end up in a Rorqual is viable in the few holder corporations of alliances in the whole game, that is where ABC roids are located. For everything else, why compress what you can find for no risk in high sec.
Callista Omenswarm Astronautical Engineering	Posted - 2009.05.18 20:43:00 - [24] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha I loled ... Don't even try to put the thousands bots on the same balance as genuine players. So you 'lol' at the notion Mission running is more 'effort' then complain about mining bots. There's a reason there aren't mission running bots, you know. Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Never occurred to you that this is NOT real life? Nothing to do with emulating real life, but as you point out, to do with being a rewarding game. If mining, a profession that requires less outlay, skills and attention offers a comparable pay-out to mission running, why mission run? for the 'fun'? Mission running/mining tend to be a means to an end (ISK/Mats for PvP, manufacture, POS), rather than an enjoyable task in itself. Mining is comparatively a much safer, less involved ISK generator with a lower bar to entry. It stands to reason the profits from it should be smaller. Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha The natural evolution, to end up in a Rorqual is viable in the few holder corporations of alliances in the whole game, that is where ABC roids are located. And what's wrong with that? the whole point of eve is to drive folks out to 0.0, if the lack of a realistic 'endgame' or comparative earnings in empire helps drive that migration chalk it up as 'working as intended'. And WHs opened up ABC to every single empire mining corp that wants them. The higher rewards are there, for much smaller risks than known 0.0 space, but from what I hear from those buying the minerals and ore from those corps, they are extremely reluctant to take advantage. As a general rule, they're much happier to mine Veld/Scord safely than make 3-4x+ that with some moderate risk (not to say some aren't doing it, just very few). If miners really want a bigger payout than empire, then door is already wide open for them.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.05.18 21:31:00 - [25] Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 18/05/2009 21:34:32 Quote: So you 'lol' at the notion Mission running is more 'effort' then complain about mining bots. There's a reason there aren't mission running bots, you know Nice try selectively picking stuff to make up something. BTW mission running is where the Q4ssddjk and I8eenyyu are at ATM, in case you did not notice. Quote: Mining is comparatively a much safer, less involved ISK generator with a lower bar to entry. It stands to reason the profits from it should be smaller. If there was no Veldspar at abnormally high price, there would not be ANY reason to mine at all. It's not about smaller, it's about not even making sense. It's how many, 1% of the miners who can even access to ABC roids without being immediately popped by the holders? All the rest? "Enjoy your ride to an hulk, here you take those half chewed over-farmed roids and STFU with your lolforgottenprofession?" Which is BTW the topic of the thread? Quote: And what's wrong with that? the whole point of eve is to drive folks out to 0.0, It's wrong in that there is NOT enough of a drive to take people out to 0.0. Why in hell would you leave empire when anything but minerals you can't ever mine (ABC, for a minority) is worth less than veldspar? Quote: And WHs opened up ABC to every single empire mining corp that wants them. False. Where do you see anyone in it's endgame Rorqual in a WH? Why don't you see megacyte at 1 ISK already if it's so "every single mining corp" friendly and all jumped on it? Hint: you can't refine the minerals well at all. Quote: As a general rule, they're much happier to mine Veld/Scord safely than make 3-4x+ that with some moderate risk Because they are vastly less clueless than you? Did you even try to sort out the logistics of mass mining in a WH? Or the system being stripped clean in few hours and not repopping them? Forget the risk (which has a cost none the less), you just won't bring out freigthers full of ore (guess why), you won't see Rorquals compressing the stuff, you won't see competitive refining.
Barkel Minmatar	Posted - 2009.05.18 21:48:00 - [26] Originally by: Callista Omenswarm And what's wrong with that? the whole point of eve is to drive folks out to 0.0... It is? Wish they had told me that. I've spent most of the last year in high sec after moving back from 0.0 with no inclination to return in the immediate future. I must leave a note to myself that I have apparently been playing the game wrong by enjoying high sec.
Karentaki Gallente Oberon Incorporated Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.05.18 22:03:00 - [27] Originally by: Capn' Krunch Originally by: Callista Omenswarm know of any level 4 mission ships you can cobble together for 150mil? Yes, you can build a very capable mission running dominix on that budget. Just to hammer home that point, I use a domi for plexing and my ship+fit costs about 150 mill. That gives me a full T2 tank, armour rigs, T2 drones, and some stuff in the highs. It can tank most of the complexes found in 0.0 solo, and it could definitely handle any L4 mission without warping out. With a bit of tweaking you could reduce the tank and stick guns in the highs to boost DPS and get better ISK per hour. All this is with a little over a year training. Quote: EVE is like a sandbox with landmines. Deal with it.
Zeerover DeadSpace Exploration and Investigations	Posted - 2009.05.18 22:51:00 - [28] Edited by: Zeerover on 18/05/2009 22:51:27 Quote: Not entirely correct. I'm pretty sure meta 1-4 refine for exactly the same as meta 1 in most cases. In most cases it refines much worse then the standard t1 drops, which is the ONLY reason that the t1 items have a higher value them most of the meta <4 items. Quote: When a specialised mining character with a year of industrial skills under their belt and an expensive tech 2 mining barge makes less than half as much isk as a six month old pilot in his first battleship Most all specialized mission runners, i.e. those who out earn you in Empire, use ships that take longer time to train then any barge (marauders), and fittings that are x2-x10 as costly. Furthermore they are required to pay a lot more attention to the game, so why is it that they shouldn't out earn an empire miner? Some people get cheap Dominix setups to work, and can clear missions relatively well (but a lot slower then proper setups). But for those setups to earn anything like 40m isk/hr you have to be in null-sec working the pirate factions. But I'll agree with you that low-sec mining is badly broken and needs a fix. The price of Noxc, Mex & Iso is a bad joke compared to the original NPC seed orders, and therefore the whole risk/reward ratio of low-sec mining is frakked. My personal preferred way of fixing that would be to reinstate limited NPC buy orders on minerals, but with certain limitations: Few orders scattered throughout Empire (say 50 different stations total). Once filled the orders disappear until next DT and respawn at a random station. This would re-invigorate the courier profession, as well as giving plenty of opportunity for those who play the arbitrage game, and would be somewhat difficult to farm.
Sir Substance Minmatar The Empire Nation Dead Mans Hand	Posted - 2009.05.19 03:35:00 - [29] Edited by: Sir Substance on 19/05/2009 03:37:57 Originally by: Callista Omenswarm 9Mil+ an hour in a hulk sounds fairly decent to me. where the hell did you pull that figure from. i guess maybe if you used a totally t2 fit, and jetcanned without stopping, and fitted no tank so you could use all the mining upgrades without running out of CPU, and used t2 mining drones (which get targeted first by incoming belt rats) and just generally make yourself as vulnerable as possible without actually going to low sec, you might be able to make that much. but, back in reality, im an accomplished hulk pilot with a lot of experience under my belt, and i top out at about 5 or 6. Originally by: Callista Omenswarm There's a reason there aren't mission running bots, you know. except that there are. sorry.
Hayaishi Gallente Armada Ministry Defence	Posted - 2009.05.19 04:07:00 - [30] Edited by: Hayaishi on 19/05/2009 04:14:38 Edited by: Hayaishi on 19/05/2009 04:10:45 let me just throw something onto the table here, im a hulk pilot, and i have noticed something. 1st. Empire veld asteroids are around 17-28k units of veld each, one single strip miner cycle = 17,000 units of veld. so, generally its 1-2 cycles per rock. so, the rocks are too small, 2nd. Empire, whenever there is anything good, there is a lot of people who know about it. so, small rocks + many miners = not so many rocks left within 3 hours after downtime. which means the miner is out of work for quite a bit of the day, unless he feels like mining much lesser valued ores like... pyroxeres.... 3rd. some may say "rocks to small? then go to lowsec you whinger". True, lowsec rocks are big rocks... but, also, lowsec rocks are pirate havens, so, the loss of a 150 million isk hulk (with a standard t2 setup) way out weighs the possible money made as the solo miner. so, in summary: small asteroids too many other miners lowsec not safe mining can only go so fast. there are no crazy faction miner modules that out go t2. now, compare this to mission running. Best caldari navy level 4 agent is in Motsu, hisec, and you are never required to go to lowsec for any of the agents missions missions are endless,, finish one, hand it in, get another, go. pirates wont kill you! because, unless you go shooting at loot theives then you got no reason to die by player pirates. you make far more money, much faster then mining, and you are also getting loyalty points, mission rewards, bounties, etc. Getting isk faster is as easy as spending isk... spending isk you so easily made missioning on caldari navy modules, which make you more money faster. but wait! dont missions get you hurt! dont the big bad Guristas shoot at you?! oh dear! oh well, not to worry, you got your crazy faction tanks and gist x-type shield boosters. sure a farcry from your starting days, but even with a nice plain t2 fitting, missions are hard to die in if you've ran them over 9000 times.... which you will have. if you need any clarification, go ahead and ask.

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