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Tippia
Raddick Explorations Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2009.05.22 09:30:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Infinity Ziona Ishtar with level V relevant skills is 1295 with t2 mwd and 1 1600mm plate. With overheat its 1829. With max skills to V its not cap stable so you have no permarunning mwd. It has 22k ehp. It has no overheat bonus.
I think the problem here is that you've decided to failfit your Ishtar. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2009.05.22 09:32:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Infinity Ziona Ishtar with level V relevant skills is 1295 with t2 mwd and 1 1600mm plate. With overheat its 1829. With max skills to V its not cap stable so you have no permarunning mwd. It has 22k ehp. It has no overheat bonus.
Could we please not talk about comedy setups like 1600mm plated Ishtars? A proper Ishtar setup is going 1827km/s, without overheat or implants. And since you're including a slave set on your Proteus, it's only fair to include a snake set on the Ishtar, making it even faster.
PS: cap boosters are your friend. The Ishtar can perma-run the MWD until you run out of cap charges.
Quote: Proteus with level V relevant skills is 1346 with t2 mwd. With overheat is 1900. With max skills to V its cap stable at 85%. It has 44k ehp. It has 25% overheat bonus.
So you're 500m/s slower, even if you sacrifice all that armor HP you were bragging about.
PS: that Ishtar has 36k EHP. I think I'll quite happily trade 10k EHP for 500m/s speed advantage, 25% more dps, and much more versatility in drones.
Quote: Even with the brick setup above my proteus will run you down and kick your ass because your not cap stable and I am.
The Ishtar is cap-stable more than long enough for its gang to kill your overpriced brick, and even if it can't kill you solo, as soon as it runs out of cap charges, it can effortlessly disengage and there's nothing you can do to stop it. -----------
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Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2009.05.22 09:36:00 -
[63]
Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 22/05/2009 09:36:10
Originally by: Vrabac Can't beat monster tank. The "proteus is just going to get tackled and ganked" is kinda moot point since anyone commiting to a pvp fight is going to get tackled, including the ishtar. You can get similar results with legion, 2 plates and hams, close to 300 k ehp with slaves and 600ish dps, but that's with 2 lows spent on bcus. Beats sacrilege in my book, no matter somewhat less agility. I won't be jumping without a scout in a t3 ship anyway will I? Beats absolution too, somewhat less dps but way more durability + less cap vulnerability and 4th mid slot. Come to think of it, beats most battleships at short ranges, better tank for less dps but 3 times smaller signature radius. But yeah t3 ships suck balls.
Haven't we been over this already, with the comedy uber-tank Drake setups? A ship that can do nothing but tank is a worthless ship, it'll just get tackled (so the expensive killmail doesn't escape), and then saved for last, since its offense is considerably weaker than the equivalent HAC. And once the rest of the gang is dead, all that massive EHP is going to give you is a bit more time to beg for a ransom in local before you go down.
The only T3 cruisers worth flying (outside of covops/bubble-immune setups) are the Loki and Tengu. The Loki because a Vagabond with a 40km web is just absurdly powerful, the Tengu because the Cerberus is impossible to fit, and the Nighthawk is trash. -----------
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Infinity Ziona
Minmatar I AM BETTER THAN YOU
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Posted - 2009.05.22 09:58:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Originally by: Infinity Ziona Ishtar with level V relevant skills is 1295 with t2 mwd and 1 1600mm plate. With overheat its 1829. With max skills to V its not cap stable so you have no permarunning mwd. It has 22k ehp. It has no overheat bonus.
Could we please not talk about comedy setups like 1600mm plated Ishtars? A proper Ishtar setup is going 1827km/s, without overheat or implants. And since you're including a slave set on your Proteus, it's only fair to include a snake set on the Ishtar, making it even faster.
PS: cap boosters are your friend. The Ishtar can perma-run the MWD until you run out of cap charges.
Quote: Proteus with level V relevant skills is 1346 with t2 mwd. With overheat is 1900. With max skills to V its cap stable at 85%. It has 44k ehp. It has 25% overheat bonus.
So you're 500m/s slower, even if you sacrifice all that armor HP you were bragging about.
PS: that Ishtar has 36k EHP. I think I'll quite happily trade 10k EHP for 500m/s speed advantage, 25% more dps, and much more versatility in drones.
Quote: Even with the brick setup above my proteus will run you down and kick your ass because your not cap stable and I am.
The Ishtar is cap-stable more than long enough for its gang to kill your overpriced brick, and even if it can't kill you solo, as soon as it runs out of cap charges, it can effortlessly disengage and there's nothing you can do to stop it.
The proteus is inherently faster, with 100% more EHP and limitless cap. Your tactic to outrun the proteus in a slower ship is nonsense since whatever you do to increase your base speed I can do to increase mine to keep it above yours.
Since we are using theoretical gangs, my gang could just as easily tackle and gank you, except with your limited cap and 50% less ehp my proteus will still be at 50% while your popping into your pod.
Sorry Merin but you lose (again). Ganking Buddhist Nun |
Tippia
Raddick Explorations Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2009.05.22 10:22:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Infinity Ziona Your tactic to outrun the proteus in a slower ship is nonsense since whatever you do to increase your base speed I can do to increase mine to keep it above yours.
…thereby losing the monster EHP you keep touting, thus rendering your entire argument moot. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Izzybella
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Posted - 2009.05.22 10:24:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Omara Otawan
Originally by: Izzybella Also because they are all massivly exspensive at the moment not many people will buy them so the market will become saturated, this will also cause a drop in price. Learn economics.
Market saturation would mean you'd see like 1.5-3k Tengus on market. At the moment I cant see any evidence of a reasonable supply of ships or subsystems, though they already reached the smaller market hubs in some numbers it seems.
Given that from 300k characters ingame maybe 50k are capable of piloting a t3 ship and assuming 25% of those actually try to get one, we are looking at 12.5k units that are needed.
But we are waiting for a over-supply situation, so triple that number at the very least if you expect prices to come down.
I'd expect it to be at least a year until we are close to the 700-800mill mark for a ship with subsystems, which would be somewhat reasonable.
Your right, I forgot to factor in the number of players actually capable of flying these ships. This number will also have to increase. All of these factors together will bring down the price, no indiviual one will achieve it. I don't think it will be quite as long as a year before the prices start to drop but I don't think it will be far off.
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Infinity Ziona
Minmatar I AM BETTER THAN YOU
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Posted - 2009.05.22 10:41:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Infinity Ziona Your tactic to outrun the proteus in a slower ship is nonsense since whatever you do to increase your base speed I can do to increase mine to keep it above yours.
ąthereby losing the monster EHP you keep touting, thus rendering your entire argument moot.
EHP <-> Speed. Move it in any direction I still got much more ehp and superior speed. I dont recall saying EHP > all. I just said my proteus got similiar hac damage with 375k of ehp and at 300m thats way too OP. Not that that was the fit to pwn all comers. Ganking Buddhist Nun |
Infinity Ziona
Minmatar I AM BETTER THAN YOU
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Posted - 2009.05.22 10:44:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Infinity Ziona Ishtar with level V relevant skills is 1295 with t2 mwd and 1 1600mm plate. With overheat its 1829. With max skills to V its not cap stable so you have no permarunning mwd. It has 22k ehp. It has no overheat bonus.
I think the problem here is that you've decided to failfit your Ishtar.
No the problem is your comprehension.
The only things fitted were:
Proteus:
1 1600mm plate t2. 1 10mn MWD t2.
Ishtar 1 1600mm plate t2 1 10mn MWD t2.
Ganking Buddhist Nun |
Vrabac
Zawa's Fan Club
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Posted - 2009.05.22 10:51:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 22/05/2009 09:36:10
Originally by: Vrabac Can't beat monster tank. The "proteus is just going to get tackled and ganked" is kinda moot point since anyone commiting to a pvp fight is going to get tackled, including the ishtar. You can get similar results with legion, 2 plates and hams, close to 300 k ehp with slaves and 600ish dps, but that's with 2 lows spent on bcus. Beats sacrilege in my book, no matter somewhat less agility. I won't be jumping without a scout in a t3 ship anyway will I? Beats absolution too, somewhat less dps but way more durability + less cap vulnerability and 4th mid slot. Come to think of it, beats most battleships at short ranges, better tank for less dps but 3 times smaller signature radius. But yeah t3 ships suck balls.
Haven't we been over this already, with the comedy uber-tank Drake setups? A ship that can do nothing but tank is a worthless ship, it'll just get tackled (so the expensive killmail doesn't escape), and then saved for last, since its offense is considerably weaker than the equivalent HAC. And once the rest of the gang is dead, all that massive EHP is going to give you is a bit more time to beg for a ransom in local before you go down.
The only T3 cruisers worth flying (outside of covops/bubble-immune setups) are the Loki and Tengu. The Loki because a Vagabond with a 40km web is just absurdly powerful, the Tengu because the Cerberus is impossible to fit, and the Nighthawk is trash.
You missed the part where the Legion in question has 2 BCUs and does over 600 dps which is notably more than 2 BCU sacrilege. It is not a comedy fit. It uses 4 out of 6 lows for tank, and remaining 2 for damage. If you think this is similar to 4 SPR passive drake of uselessness than I don't really get your reasoning.
The proposed Proteus is overly tanked but it's a good if somewhat extreme way of showing that t3 cruisers are powerful ships. It can, for example, be fitted to do 1000+ dps while having about 200k ehp. Is this a comedy uber-tank drake for you? Dunno, I wouldn't agree with that.
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Admiral IceBlock
Caldari Northern Intelligence
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Posted - 2009.05.22 10:52:00 -
[70]
Can you even fly a t3 ship?
T3 are controlled by supply and demand. If players can't be arsed to go into wormholes to get the needed supplies, prices go up. Are you with me?
Minerals too, are controlled by supply and demand. If players can't be arsed to mine to get the needed supplies, prices go up. Are you with me?
Loyalty points and faction rewards too, are controlled by supply and demand. If players can't be arsed to mission to get the needed supplies, prices go up. Are you with me?
Basic economy 101; you with me?
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2009.05.22 11:04:00 -
[71]
Edited by: Tippia on 22/05/2009 11:05:41
Originally by: Admiral IceBlock Basic economy 101; you with me?
Except, of course, that you're quite wrong about the reasons — see the other thread you spammed for further details.
Originally by: Infinity Ziona No the problem is your comprehension.
No, the problem is that you're making an irrelevant comparison between unrealistic fits. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Qual
Gallente Cornexant Research
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Posted - 2009.05.22 11:10:00 -
[72]
Originally by: E Vile ... with selected subsystems ...
Found your problem. Choose different setup and you can get it for about 1B.
Yeah, thats still a lot, but they are dropping fast atm.. Especially subsystems.
"The short version: Qual is right." -Papa Smurf |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.05.22 11:13:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Qual
Originally by: E Vile ... with selected subsystems ...
Found your problem. Choose different setup and you can get it for about 1B. Yeah, thats still a lot, but they are dropping fast atm.. Especially subsystems.
The problem is that you can't select a subsystem when you reverse engineer, so there's a glut of "unwanted" subsystems that sell very near manufacture price (completely ignoring the reverse engineering cost, which is actually quite substantial).
EVE issues|Mining revamp|Build stuff|Make ISK |
Infinity Ziona
Minmatar I AM BETTER THAN YOU
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Posted - 2009.05.22 11:19:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 22/05/2009 11:05:41
Originally by: Admiral IceBlock Basic economy 101; you with me?
Except, of course, that you're quite wrong about the reasons ł see the other thread you spammed for further details.
Originally by: Infinity Ziona No the problem is your comprehension.
No, the problem is that you're making an irrelevant comparison between unrealistic fits.
No its a relevant comparison on the base stats of the ships specifically regarding base speed and EHP and stable cap.
Fitting other modules to modify the base stats would not change the relationship since anything you could fit on the Ishtar to gain speed or tank or cap would also be able to fit on the proteus to counter that gain.
Since the Proteus is superior in all 3 areas as well as in grid and cpu its a non-argument. Proving once again, that, I AM BETTER THAN YOU. |
Rukia KuchikiSan
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Posted - 2009.05.22 11:34:00 -
[75]
Originally by: E Vile I could see if this ship was TWICE AS GOOD AS A CARRIER, but come on devs...WTF!
Lol, you fail, full stop
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Rajere
No Trademark
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Posted - 2009.05.22 12:08:00 -
[76]
The "ishtar" Proteus is the absolute worst Possible Proteus "theme" you could build your subsystems around, ever. It's terrible, no idea why you're using that one to champion T3 ships, the Ishtar outclasses it in everyway.
The opinions expressed in my posts do represent my corp -------------------------- NOTR |
Qual
Gallente Cornexant Research
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Posted - 2009.05.22 12:33:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Akita T
The problem is that you can't select a subsystem when you reverse engineer
That is indeed one of the huge problems atm.. The issue is further compunded by some people strange urge to actaully build those crap bpc's even though they know they are only going to loose even more ISK by doing so...
"The short version: Qual is right." -Papa Smurf |
Zitala
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Posted - 2009.05.22 12:48:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Jonathan Calvert First off, t3 prices have already dropped by 50% or more since launch. I am doing my best to bring them down further, by shaving off the profit margin, but until others go along or other suppliers come online, its not going to happen.
Wow, you must really hate T3. It's a complex supply chain and everyone in it wants their cut. If you shave the profit margin off the consumer prices, margins all across the board hit the wall. Of course, traders/industrialists worth their salt just adapt and drop their buy prices. Meaning: less cash for the folks harvesting materials in w-space, who are already the weakest link in the chain. With more and more pirates crawling around in W-space, it may thus fast degenerate into a huge version of lowsec: high risk, low rewards, with absolutely no incentive to even go there.
In summary: Yeah, truly great idea to kill prices before the whole chain has even started to stabilize. Not.
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Labratory Rat
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Posted - 2009.05.22 14:08:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Zitala
In summary: Yeah, truly great idea to kill prices before the whole chain has even started to stabilize. Not.
The best thing that can happen to T3 is prices going back up. Nothing else will galvanize CCP sufficiently to acknowledge their design flaws and re-envision Apoc.
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Sun Ra
The Royal Syndicate Eternal Rapture
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Posted - 2009.05.22 15:20:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Infinity Ziona With fittings its closer to 150 / 200 mill. Recons are paper thin. T3 is extremely durable.
But you dont count in the fitting cost of the t3 ship? which is more than a recon as most will pimp it more
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Infinity Ziona
Minmatar I AM BETTER THAN YOU
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Posted - 2009.05.22 15:55:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Rajere The "ishtar" Proteus is the absolute worst Possible Proteus "theme" you could build your subsystems around, ever. It's terrible, no idea why you're using that one to champion T3 ships, the Ishtar outclasses it in everyway.
LOL:
Highs: I 5 P 6 OC P Mids: I 5 P 3 OC I Lows: I 5 P 7 OC P Grid: I 356 P 512 OC P CPU: I 883 P 1368 OC P Bandw: I 125 P 100 OC I EHP: I 10k P 32k OC P Cap: I 1400 P 1800 OC P Tar Rng: I 75k P 109 OC P Sen Str: I 16 P 33 OC P Speed: I 226 P 238 OC P Drn Bay: I 375 P 225 OC I
I = Ishtar P = Proteus OC = Outclassed By:
Result: Proteus outclasses Ishtar by 10 to 4. In EHP by 300% alone. Its clearly superior making your statement laughable.
Read the sig!
Proving once again, that, I AM BETTER THAN YOU. |
Jonathan Calvert
Minmatar Empire Mining and Trade
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Posted - 2009.05.22 17:08:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Zitala
Originally by: Jonathan Calvert First off, t3 prices have already dropped by 50% or more since launch. I am doing my best to bring them down further, by shaving off the profit margin, but until others go along or other suppliers come online, its not going to happen.
Wow, you must really hate T3. It's a complex supply chain and everyone in it wants their cut. If you shave the profit margin off the consumer prices, margins all across the board hit the wall. Of course, traders/industrialists worth their salt just adapt and drop their buy prices. Meaning: less cash for the folks harvesting materials in w-space, who are already the weakest link in the chain. With more and more pirates crawling around in W-space, it may thus fast degenerate into a huge version of lowsec: high risk, low rewards, with absolutely no incentive to even go there.
In summary: Yeah, truly great idea to kill prices before the whole chain has even started to stabilize. Not.
I disagree. What we need is to lower overall prices, so that people actually buy and use them, thus generating more demand for t3 ships. This in turn will result in more demand for parts, and thus more demand for people to go get them. When I say Im shaving off profit margin, there is still a ways to go. Im making plenty of isk, but there is very little demand at current market prices. Volume is where the big profits are at.
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london
Gallente Dark-Rising
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Posted - 2009.05.22 17:10:00 -
[83]
Proteus is down to 1.8b on market. I saw a hull for sale in Hek for 690m.
It is going down in price.
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Shardrael
Caldari Titan Industries Technology Team
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Posted - 2009.05.22 19:06:00 -
[84]
there is some p. pro eft warrioring itt Signature locked. Please submit a petition to discuss the matter further. Navigator |
MukkBarovian
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Posted - 2009.05.22 20:28:00 -
[85]
Edited by: MukkBarovian on 22/05/2009 20:31:11 Confirming that there are two viable ishtar setups: #1 Shield Tanked Nano Ishtar #2 Dominix
In enemy territory that Proteus setup will get run down and blobbed.
In a 1v1 with an ishtar you will be kited. He might grind you down himself, or more likely about 5 mins later the blob will land on you. Either way his vastly superior speed will mean that he really has to **** up to die.
In a fleet battle a non-******ed fc will have someone point you, and then will ignore you as he tries to win the battle. If he does he will kill you a part of the victory celebration. The ultimate form of teabaging the enemy fc who will get to add a multibillion dollar ship to the pyre of his failure.
Thats not saying a proteus at a more reasonable price is bad. But the ishtar definitely still has a place.
Edit- I forgot the last use. Sitting around docked in your home system with a bunch of buddies and scouts waiting for a ****** to stumble in so you can gank him with your pimp ship. I used to have a Machariel for that. But it almost died in a fleet battle and I sold it afterwards.
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Ana Vyr
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Posted - 2009.05.22 20:33:00 -
[86]
I'd love to get into wormhole complex running, but my corp is focussed on living in 0.0, not runing wormhole content.
OK that's fine, so I can jump clone back to high sec and solo the content (when time permits)...but that seems to require a battlecruiser to run the level 1-2 wormhole sites...and w-space is essentially lowsec. Do you bring a solo BC into lowsec to run missions?
Hmm, yeah, there's a good probality of losing the ship doing that. Is the stuff you can get from a 1-2 level w-space combat site worth a fitted passive tank BC? Can you fit the BC for PvP and still run the sites effectively? The answers seem to be no.
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VanNostrum
Perkone
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Posted - 2009.05.22 22:09:00 -
[87]
The way i see it, the availability of T3 ships skillwise is a problem. The low level skills make it trainable by everyone, even fairly new characters, and that increases the pool of pplayers that can fly the ship. High demand causes prices to increase.
There are still many T2 ships that i had expected to go down in price over the years but the player population increasing nonstop just keeps increasing the demand, and so prices just don't drop even though high end mineral prices dropped by a large amount in the last 3 years.
T1 ships using more of the low end minerals caused increase in low end mineral prices as T1 production sky rocketed with the influx of new players. Tritanium tripled in price in 2.5 years while megacyte dropped by large amount.
So now everybody can fly T3, everybody will want T3, demand will go up as well as their prices, there is no stopping that unless CCP either increases skill requirement of T3s to decrease the demand, or decrease the production costs.
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Shadowsword
Epsilon Lyr Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2009.05.22 22:46:00 -
[88]
Originally by: VanNostrum The way i see it, the availability of T3 ships skillwise is a problem. The low level skills make it trainable by everyone, even fairly new characters, and that increases the pool of pplayers that can fly the ship. High demand causes prices to increase.
High demand? What a joke...
Go check the volume of T3 cruisers sold. Something isn't in "high demand" when there's less than 50 transactions a day.
The reason prices are high is that the production cost is insane, period. Ask any competent builder for comfirmation.
Quote:
There are still many T2 ships that i had expected to go down in price over the years but the player population increasing nonstop just keeps increasing the demand, and so prices just don't drop even though high end mineral prices dropped by a large amount in the last 3 years.
Sorry, but for this you deserve to be laughed at.
What does megacyte or zydrine have to do with T2 prices? What DOES have something to do with their price are Dysprosium and Promethium, and they've never cost so much as they do now.
Quote:
T1 ships using more of the low end minerals caused increase in low end mineral prices as T1 production sky rocketed with the influx of new players. Tritanium tripled in price in 2.5 years while megacyte dropped by large amount.
So now everybody can fly T3, everybody will want T3, demand will go up as well as their prices, there is no stopping that unless CCP either increases skill requirement of T3s to decrease the demand, or decrease the production costs.
Sp loss. That will make some think twice about it.
SP accessibility or not, T3 cruisers will always cost significantly more than a Recon or HAS. The one thing that make command ships relatively rare on the field are NOT their high SP requirements, but their production cost. You think anyone can afford a potential 300M isk loss each time they want to pvp? ------------------------------------------
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Jones Bones
Beyond Divinity Inc
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Posted - 2009.05.22 22:58:00 -
[89]
Of course they're desperate; they can smell their deaths, and the sound they'll make rattling their cages will serve as a warning to the rest. =================== Go Bucks! |
Baillif
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Posted - 2009.05.22 23:11:00 -
[90]
It is expensive because since the gas crash there is nothing to keep a significant number of people in the wormhole systems aside from gouging the **** out the rest of you for BPCs and sleeper components.
One simple change would change all this. Change the sleeper tag drop rates or prices to bring them into line with the level 4 mission rewards. More players would head for the wormholes and start up operations as a result. The T3 prices would drop because of the sheer volume of T3 stuff that would begin to flow out of the WH's.
As things are now if you increased the drop rates of anything else players would just leave the T3 market (and the wormholes) as it stopped being worth doing. Prices would stay high.
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