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E Vile
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Posted - 2009.05.21 05:29:00 -
[1]
We have had a bit of time waiting for T3 prices to settle.
2.04 BILLION isk for lowest Jita price Tengu with selected subsystems for a cruiser.
Great new content! 2 BILLION for a Cruiser? Working as intended?
My opinion is SUBSYSTEMS ARE WAAAAY OVERPRICED.
Tengu itself has come down to 570 mil. Thats too expensive if you ask me BUT still not totally ridiculas as it is sure to come down more eventually. THE PROBLEM is subsystems are like buying the ship 5 more times over! I could see if this ship was TWICE AS GOOD AS A CARRIER, but come on devs...WTF!
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Warrio
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.05.21 05:33:00 -
[2]
Is your problem with the devs of Eve Online or with Adam Smith?
sXe |
Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge
Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2009.05.21 05:37:00 -
[3]
Honestly, if the moon was made of cheese...
I'd eat it.
Important Internet Spaceship League Wants You |
Arthur Frayn
V.O.F.L IRON CORE
H E L I C O N
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Posted - 2009.05.21 05:55:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Warrio
Is your problem with the devs of Eve Online or with Adam Smith?
The problem is with the devs and how they have chosen to limit sleeper spawn rates in w-space.
--
Eventus stultorum magister. |
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2009.05.21 06:20:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Arthur Frayn
Originally by: Warrio
Is your problem with the devs of Eve Online or with Adam Smith?
The problem is with the devs and how they have chosen to limit sleeper spawn rates in w-space.
This. It is becoming more and more obvious that T3 prices aren't going to go anywhere near the intended 300 mil range unless CCP makes dramatic changes to either the build costs or the spawn rates/drop amounts.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.05.21 06:30:00 -
[6]
I'll just call it "CCP sucks at their own game's economics in spite of having hired an economist" and leave it at that.
We've been having this discussion since when exactly, at least one week before T3 went live on TQ ?
Yeah.
EVE issues|Mining revamp|Build stuff|Make ISK |
Raukho
Evoke.
Ev0ke
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Posted - 2009.05.21 06:36:00 -
[7]
T3 is overpriced but to be honest so is T2 atm. I'd propose for cruiser hulls something like.
T1 5-10 mil (fairly irrelevant as you can insure
T2 / faction 50-75 mil
T3 500 mil complete including subsystems
This is of course from a point of view of loosing ships in PvP and still at 500 mil I wouldn't fly a cruiser hull in pvp. As the risk of loosing it to blobage is huge. For now T3 is just a toy for the insanly rich players or those with a lot of time on their hands.
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Freighter Jjoe
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Posted - 2009.05.21 06:40:00 -
[8]
Seriously - why build the content if only a few people are gonna fly it. And I would say 300mil for a t3 cruiser fully fitted. Losing skills is whats supposed to hurt with those (in addition to isk)
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Anubis Xian
Reavers
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Posted - 2009.05.21 06:42:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Akita T
I'll just call it "CCP sucks at their own game's economics in spite of having hired an economist" and leave it at that.
We've been having this discussion since when exactly, at least one week before T3 went live on TQ ?
Yeah.
This discussion hasn't stopped since Interceptors were put into the game.
Originally by: CCP Oveur
The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
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Warrio
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.05.21 06:46:00 -
[10]
T3 prices are fine and fill a good niche.
T1 cruisers are for the noobies, cheap bastards, impoverished bums etc.
T2 cruisers are for those who what to splash a bit of cash on something a bit better.
Command Ships and Black Ops (lol) are intended for those a bit more rich who want to throw some more cash at a problem for a bit more of an advantage.
T3 is for those good at making ISK who want a bit more flexibility.
Before T3 there was not real advantage to having billions to PvP with over just a few hundred million. Earning ISK is a skill and with it should come benefits. Can't afford it? Mine faster or something.
sXe |
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Soporo
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.05.21 07:27:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Soporo on 21/05/2009 07:28:13
Quote:
Before T3 there was not real advantage to having billions to PvP with over just a few hundred million.
So faction ships and officer mods were never expensive, used and no real advantage? Lawlz.
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GyokZoli
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.05.21 07:48:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Warrio
T3 prices are fine and fill a good niche.
Obviously, you have no idea what you are talking about.
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Arthur Frayn
V.O.F.L IRON CORE
H E L I C O N
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Posted - 2009.05.21 07:59:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Warrio
T3 prices are fine and fill a good niche.
Nice troll! 
--
Eventus stultorum magister. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Dark-Rising
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Posted - 2009.05.21 08:04:00 -
[14]
Quote:
Earning ISK is a skill and with it should come benefits. Can't afford it? Mine faster or something
What kind of skill is involved at clicking on a GTC seller site?
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Fagginator
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Posted - 2009.05.21 08:16:00 -
[15]
I wanna fit Yeastamel gear on all my ships but it's too expensive. Come on CCP DEVS... WTF! DO Sumffin! /breaths through mouth |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.05.21 08:25:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Anubis Xian
Originally by: Akita T
I'll just call it "CCP sucks at their own game's economics in spite of having hired an economist" and leave it at that.
We've been having this discussion since when exactly, at least one week before T3 went live on TQ ?
Yeah.
This discussion hasn't stopped since Interceptors were put into the game.
Except that this time we have at least three separate CCP sources hinting at the fact they WANTED to make T3 somewhat affordable and with a decent adoption rate...
...but in spite of their intentions, they failed to do the math, and we ended up with what we see now.
The three separate sources I'm claiming ?
First, there's the infamous "I fully expect T3 ships to end up costing" forum post (well, it's "only" one order of magnitude wrong, so it could have been worse I guess... not).
Second, there's the devblog about several things Apocrypha related, where they sideways hint at adoption rates far below "expectations" (well, duuh... if your expectations are not based on any calculations, that's what usually happens).
Finally, there's the feedback from people attending the Las Vegas get-together, claiming CCP employees have repeatedly expressed a dissapointment on how little T3 ships have been in use in spite of massive efforts required to put them into the game.
So... yeah... it's NOT exactly the same thing, you know ?
It's as close as it gets to CCP actually admitting failure without actually putting it in a news bulletin.
EVE issues|Mining revamp|Build stuff|Make ISK |
Morel Nova
z3r0 Gravity
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Posted - 2009.05.21 08:32:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Morel Nova on 21/05/2009 08:32:40
just divide all requirements by somewhere between 5 and 10 and were in business.
I wants to fly loki, but when even tossing out cash for vagas is hard there is just no way its going to happen.
Put in space whales!
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hsrytjfdtyjh
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Posted - 2009.05.21 08:33:00 -
[18]
Originally by: E Vile
We have had a bit of time waiting for T3 prices to settle.
I could see if this ship was TWICE AS GOOD AS A CARRIER, but come on devs...WTF!
A MoM is approximately as effective as 2 carriers, and they average about 20bil after fittings.
With insurance i lose more then twice as much from a black ops loss then a carrier loss.
Price effectiveness ratio is not linear, in game or in most RL consumer markets.
Carriers do something completely different then cruiser hulls and they shouldn't be compared directly.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.05.21 08:34:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Morel Nova
just divide all requirements by somewhere between 5 and 10 and were in business.
Or, simply increase the harvest/drop rates by 5 to 10 and you get the same end result 
EVE issues|Mining revamp|Build stuff|Make ISK |
Arthur Frayn
V.O.F.L IRON CORE
H E L I C O N
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Posted - 2009.05.21 08:40:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Morel Nova
just divide all requirements by somewhere between 5 and 10 and were in business.
Or, simply increase the harvest/drop rates by 5 to 10 and you get the same end result
If CCP were really savvy, they'd do this and not tell us while claiming that everything is still as it was when Apocrypha was released.
--
Eventus stultorum magister. |
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Morel Nova
z3r0 Gravity
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Posted - 2009.05.21 09:02:00 -
[21]
Originally by: hsrytjfdtyjh
Originally by: E Vile
We have had a bit of time waiting for T3 prices to settle.
I could see if this ship was TWICE AS GOOD AS A CARRIER, but come on devs...WTF!
A MoM is approximately as effective as 2 carriers, and they average about 20bil after fittings.
With insurance i lose more then twice as much from a black ops loss then a carrier loss.
Price effectiveness ratio is not linear, in game or in most RL consumer markets.
Carriers do something completely different then cruiser hulls and they shouldn't be compared directly.
thats the thing, T3 hulls dont do anything t2 hulls cant do (except the bubble immunity/cov-ops cloak stuff but if you have to fit those 2 subsystems on each t3 ship most of the t3 content is useless and never used, so i assume it wasnt intended) so a similar price point is expected. not 20 or more times more expensive.
Put in space whales!
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations
Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2009.05.21 09:06:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Morel Nova
just divide all requirements by somewhere between 5 and 10 and were in business.
Or, simply increase the harvest/drop rates by 5 to 10 and you get the same end result
…and also reduce the (cargo space) volumes by 5–10.
———
“If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡…
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.”
— Karath Piki |
Washell Olivaw
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Posted - 2009.05.21 10:01:00 -
[23]
Originally by: E Vile
We have had a bit of time waiting for T3 prices to settle.
Only 2 months and 11 days and it hasn't settled yet.
Don't expect CCP intervention before september (6 months).
Originally by: Signature
Everybody has a photographic memory, some people just don't have film.
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2009.05.21 10:33:00 -
[24]
Send in ze macros to w-space!
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Vrabac
Zawa's Fan Club
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Posted - 2009.05.21 10:43:00 -
[25]
Problem with t3 cruisers is that there is no true limiting factor but the price of the ship itself.
What I mean is, they are way to easy to train for. Also, they are very good ships that can do pretty much anything one can think of. Skills are cheap, they are all low in rank, pre-reqs are very low... If ship costs drop too much we might actually have too many t3 ships running about.
Oh, and the SP loss issue isn't really all that serious. Losing a level of a rank 1 skill can't possibly feel good, but it's far from a disaster - such as losing a 2-3 bil isk ship for example is.
So while I agree that the prices are atm too high, I'm not sure if we'll be much happier if and when they drop to a level acceptable to broader playerbase.
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Rip Striker
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Posted - 2009.05.21 10:46:00 -
[26]
Who cares about T3 ships, ambulation is coming soon. 
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Lindsay Logan
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Posted - 2009.05.21 10:51:00 -
[27]
Its to be expected. Since you need effort to do the sleeper sites, in contrast to missions and ratting, most don't do the hard ones that really pay off. Many stick to soloing the lame class 2s :P.
In class 6 the real good stuff lies, and more of it then the other system, but it needs a lot of effort to do them, and many deem class 6 as "not worth it". I say different, when you actually know how, its pretty straight forward.
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Pr1ncess Alia
Caldari
Perkone
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Posted - 2009.05.21 10:54:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Washell Olivaw
Originally by: E Vile
We have had a bit of time waiting for T3 prices to settle.
Only 2 months and 11 days and it hasn't settled yet.
Don't expect CCP intervention before NEXT september (18 months).
fyp
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Jonathan Calvert
Minmatar
Empire Mining and Trade
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Posted - 2009.05.21 12:53:00 -
[29]
First off, t3 prices have already dropped by 50% or more since launch. I am doing my best to bring them down further, by shaving off the profit margin, but until others go along or other suppliers come online, its not going to happen. If I go too low, others will simply buy my stuff and resell at a higher price. Consider I still have 20 days before I can even produce hulls, which is one barrier. Ive only just finished all the skills to make one races subsystems, and its not tengus. And I only have so much capital to invest in getting stock out.
I would say you could buy a Loki now for about 1.5bn at the cheapest, so were getting closer.
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adriaans
Amarr
Ankaa.
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Posted - 2009.05.21 13:34:00 -
[30]
I heard ccp planned on nerfing respawn rates even more, though i seriously hope this is not true, not that i believe anything i hear before ccp confirms it anyway, anyone know if ccp has said something specific on what they are going to do?
-sig-
Support the introduction of Blaze crystals for Amarr!
Originally by: UMEE
if ure another fotm re-roller, then dont pvp. you'll fail.
QFT! |
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2009.05.21 14:05:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Rip Striker
Who cares about T3 ships, ambulation is coming soon.
xD
But seriously. If they want to make T3 work 'as intended', a five time increase in drop rate or decrease in build cost would be the first step..
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Infinity Ziona
Minmatar
I AM BETTER THAN YOU
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Posted - 2009.05.21 14:35:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 21/05/2009 14:36:24
Making them common would be a big mistake. Why would you fly a 200 mill recon if you can fly a tech 3 cruiser with covert config and interdict nullifier for 300 mill.
Or fly a 200 mill hac if you can fly a t3 cruiser + 300k ehp and hac like damage for 300 million?
...
They should stay expensive or they'll make a lot of ships redundant imo.
N yes I have a 3 billion isk proteus and have used it and intend on using it for future pvp.
Ganking Buddhist Nun |
Shadowsword
Epsilon Lyr
Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2009.05.21 14:48:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Infinity Ziona
Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 21/05/2009 14:36:24
Making them common would be a big mistake. Why would you fly a 200 mill recon if you can fly a tech 3 cruiser with covert config and interdict nullifier for 300 mill.
For one thing, you wouldn't lose SP when you die. For another, you're blatantly exagerating on the recon price, it's more like 100M. It would still be much cheaper than a T3 cruiser.
Quote:
Or fly a 200 mill hac if you can fly a t3 cruiser + 300k ehp and hac like damage for 300 million?
...
300k ehp with hac-like damage, eh? Let's see that fit of yours...
Quote:
They should stay expensive or they'll make a lot of ships redundant imo.
Command ships are affordable. Have they made T1 battlecruisers redundant?
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Infinity Ziona
Minmatar
I AM BETTER THAN YOU
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Posted - 2009.05.21 15:15:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 21/05/2009 15:15:46
Originally by: Shadowsword
Originally by: Infinity Ziona
Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 21/05/2009 14:36:24
Making them common would be a big mistake. Why would you fly a 200 mill recon if you can fly a tech 3 cruiser with covert config and interdict nullifier for 300 mill.
For one thing, you wouldn't lose SP when you die. For another, you're blatantly exagerating on the recon price, it's more like 100M. It would still be much cheaper than a T3 cruiser.
Quote:
Or fly a 200 mill hac if you can fly a t3 cruiser + 300k ehp and hac like damage for 300 million?
...
300k ehp with hac-like damage, eh? Let's see that fit of yours...
Quote:
They should stay expensive or they'll make a lot of ships redundant imo.
Command ships are affordable. Have they made T1 battlecruisers redundant?
SP is 1x. Its hardly a big issue.
With fittings its closer to 150 / 200 mill. Recons are paper thin. T3 is extremely durable.
Heres a fitting, not my own but will demonstrate:
"Well the setup below with almost full slave implants sits at 309k EHP, with 473 DPS from its drones. It permaruns everything including its MWD, and you can sacrifice 50-100k of the EHP to fit more utility/DPS in the high slots.
I dont think the Ishtar can really get close to this. And mind you, the cost of the ship and its subsystems aside, this is with T2 modules only, faction modules take these babies to pure OP status.
If the prices drop to T2 levels, nobody will be flying T2 imo.
[Proteus, Buffer Tank]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Damage Control II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
800mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
10MN Digital Booster Rockets
Warp Disruptor II
Stasis Webifier II
Light Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Light Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Light Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
Trimark Armor Pump I
Trimark Armor Pump I
Trimark Armor Pump I
Proteus Defensive - Augmented Plating
Proteus Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Proteus Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir
Proteus Offensive - Drone Synthesis Projector
Proteus Propulsion - Localized Injectors
Ogre II x4"
Ganking Buddhist Nun |
Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2009.05.21 15:25:00 -
[35]
If you lost one level of skill every time you lost a T3 cruiser that would mean, (with very good attributes, so usually more!) at least 3.5 days of skilling assuming you want all lvl 5's to be effective in them. That's quite a lot..
One way to make this more attractive is if CCP made all the bonuses on T3 diminutive in a certain sense, so ROF bonuses instead of damage and reduction for x instead of improvement for y because those make the last levels of skill worth more than the first few.
I'd love to see a fully fitted T3 ship go for 500mil ISK but unless major changes are made it won't happen.
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Labratory Rat
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Posted - 2009.05.21 16:42:00 -
[36]
The core issue is that CCP built a whole expansion around T3 ships that almost no one uses (now or in the future). It begs the question "is anyone awake at the helm?". The first indication of any product on its way to obscurity is the lack of vision in its development. The forums are filled with great ideas (and horrible ones) of how all that development investment might have been used to repair and improve the existing game prior to Apoc. If we were shareholders, we would have voted out the board on their current FAIL strategy.
Sure the ships are innovative and have the potential to change the game entirely but unless they are common they serve no purpose except as a method to remove time and ISK from the system.
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Calleb
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Posted - 2009.05.21 16:53:00 -
[37]
Are prices right or wrong - I couldn't say.
What I can confirm is that I have been around since this game started, I have approaching 100mil SP and no real money worries - but tech 3 is the first feature ever to arrive in game that I have no plans to own. OK maybe I can make some money exploring unknown space - but I can't see what niche these ships are trying to fill
It seems to me that when this was in development people asked if it could be done like this - but nobody stopped to ask if it should be done like this.
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations
Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2009.05.21 17:13:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Infinity Ziona
With fittings its closer to 150 / 200 mill.
…in which case we're talking 150-200mil for the T2 ship and 350-400mil for the T3.
———
“If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡…
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.”
— Karath Piki |
Ivar Ragnarsson
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Posted - 2009.05.21 19:41:00 -
[39]
It doesn't help that i've seen just as many pirates in WH's as i've seen sleepers (mostly lvl 3's). Made about a billion off of sleeper components, lost about 2billion in ships/fits/implants. I've decided that, at least for the moment, its not worth doing with my alt and I. Perhaps in the future i'll utilize archaeology or hacking and do those sites. At least then the rewards are high enough (potentially) to offset the 50-75% chance of pirate attacks.
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Shardrael
Caldari
Titan Industries Technology Team
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Posted - 2009.05.21 20:05:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Infinity Ziona
Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 21/05/2009 14:36:24
Making them common would be a big mistake. Why would you fly a 200 mill recon if you can fly a tech 3 cruiser with covert config and interdict nullifier for 300 mill.
Or fly a 200 mill hac if you can fly a t3 cruiser + 300k ehp and hac like damage for 300 million?
...
They should stay expensive or they'll make a lot of ships redundant imo.
N yes I have a 3 billion isk proteus and have used it and intend on using it for future pvp.
there is an additional cost in the loss of skills each time you lose a ship, no other ship class in the game has anything even remotely like that.
t3 atm is so prenerfed its ridiculous and the whole prenerf thing just so they dont have to do any balance work for the first year something is ingame is getting old.
its sad because the idea of modular ships is a great mechanic and could really revitalize the game, but making it so almost no one can afford to lose them means as an add on they are a massive failure so far. I really hope its corrected because this kind of modular stuff applied up and down the chain like to frigs destroyers battlecruisers and even bs etc could be pretty incredible content addition to the game.
but at the rates and prices they are now that isnt even conceivable, and yes before I get flamed I can actually afford em and still think its a waste.
Signature locked. Please submit a petition to discuss the matter further. Navigator |
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Arik VanClaw
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2009.05.21 20:35:00 -
[41]
Seems every WH I visit these days has a POS set up in it. You guys do know this dramatically decreases the spawn of exploration sites in said WH right?
Perhaps people attempting to settle w-space is causing the impediment to obtain T3 components at an acceptable rate?
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adriaans
Amarr
Ankaa.
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Posted - 2009.05.21 21:15:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Arik VanClaw
Seems every WH I visit these days has a POS set up in it. You guys do know this dramatically decreases the spawn of exploration sites in said WH right?
Perhaps people attempting to settle w-space is causing the impediment to obtain T3 components at an acceptable rate?
im guessing pos's since its impossible to store several different ships and lots of loot/whatever spare ammo things like that otherwise...
ohh and pos's reduce spawn rates? Know by how much?
also, if theres so many people in w-space, and yet prices are still very high, shouldn't that mean something should be changed?
-sig-
Support the introduction of Blaze crystals for Amarr!
Originally by: UMEE
if ure another fotm re-roller, then dont pvp. you'll fail.
QFT! |
Izzybella
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Posted - 2009.05.21 21:15:00 -
[43]
The prices are currently fair considering how much effort and risk is envolved in making the damn things. Once people become more efficient and well practised at the task you'll see the prices falling. Also because they are all massivly exspensive at the moment not many people will buy them so the market will become saturated, this will also cause a drop in price. Learn economics.
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Omara Otawan
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Posted - 2009.05.21 21:46:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Izzybella
Also because they are all massivly exspensive at the moment not many people will buy them so the market will become saturated, this will also cause a drop in price. Learn economics.
Market saturation would mean you'd see like 1.5-3k Tengus on market. At the moment I cant see any evidence of a reasonable supply of ships or subsystems, though they already reached the smaller market hubs in some numbers it seems.
Given that from 300k characters ingame maybe 50k are capable of piloting a t3 ship and assuming 25% of those actually try to get one, we are looking at 12.5k units that are needed.
But we are waiting for a over-supply situation, so triple that number at the very least if you expect prices to come down.
I'd expect it to be at least a year until we are close to the 700-800mill mark for a ship with subsystems, which would be somewhat reasonable.
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Arik VanClaw
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2009.05.21 22:17:00 -
[45]
Originally by: adriaans}
ohh and pos's reduce spawn rates? Know by how much?
also, if theres so many people in w-space, and yet prices are still very high, shouldn't that mean something should be changed?[/quote
According to this thread:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1060651
Setting up a station in w-space decreases spawns to 1 site per day.
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stoicfaux
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Posted - 2009.05.21 23:42:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Arthur Frayn
The problem is with the devs and how they have chosen to limit sleeper spawn rates in w-space.
And a possible solution is for the Sleepers to go on the offensive and invade our side of the wormholes...
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Forge Lag
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Posted - 2009.05.22 01:21:00 -
[47]
As was the case with FW, CCP is way too conservative with new content. As pointed above, it may be inability to do propper ballancing beforehand.
I like conservative approach but CCP is overdoing it.
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2009.05.22 01:53:00 -
[48]
noone is doing wormhole exploration because it is impossible to move probes around because you cant see the move thingy to move them.
****ing ridiculous scan probe textures.
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2009.05.22 02:10:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Infinity Ziona
SP is 1x. Its hardly a big issue.
With fittings its closer to 150 / 200 mill. Recons are paper thin. T3 is extremely durable.
Heres a fitting, not my own but will demonstrate:
"Well the setup below with almost full slave implants sits at 309k EHP, with 473 DPS from its drones. It permaruns everything including its MWD, and you can sacrifice 50-100k of the EHP to fit more utility/DPS in the high slots.
I dont think the Ishtar can really get close to this. And mind you, the cost of the ship and its subsystems aside, this is with T2 modules only, faction modules take these babies to pure OP status.
If the prices drop to T2 levels, nobody will be flying T2 imo.
[Proteus, Buffer Tank]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Damage Control II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
800mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
10MN Digital Booster Rockets
Warp Disruptor II
Stasis Webifier II
Light Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Light Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Light Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
Trimark Armor Pump I
Trimark Armor Pump I
Trimark Armor Pump I
Proteus Defensive - Augmented Plating
Proteus Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Proteus Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir
Proteus Offensive - Drone Synthesis Projector
Proteus Propulsion - Localized Injectors
Ogre II x4"
Edit:
Putting that into EFT = 375k ehp not 307 with slave set. close to 400k ehp.
have fun with your brick.
|
Ghoest
|
Posted - 2009.05.22 02:45:00 -
[50]
good point about the messed up scan screen
Wherever you went - Here you are.
|
|
|
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
|
Posted - 2009.05.22 03:04:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 22/05/2009 03:05:36
Originally by: Infinity Ziona
I dont think the Ishtar can really get close to this.
You think wrong. The Ishtar may not be able to be as awesome a bait ship, but it has some critical advantages:
1) Speed. Speed is life for cruisers, your Proteus is just going to get tackled and ganked.
2) Dps. 5x heavies vs. 4x heavies.
3) Drone bay size. The Ishtar can carry a huge variety of drones and plenty of replacements, the Proteus can't.
4) Ewar. The Ishtar has mids free for ewar, the Proteus doesn't.
5) Cost. 100 mil hull vs. 300 mil hull (assuming they ever reach the intended price).
T3 ships are good, but they aren't going to completely replace T2.
-----------
|
Derek Sigres
|
Posted - 2009.05.22 07:46:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Quote:
Earning ISK is a skill and with it should come benefits. Can't afford it? Mine faster or something
What kind of skill is involved at clicking on a GTC seller site?
This, more than anything, is my problem with Eve. At my SP level, I can fly most any ship in the Caldari/Amarr line and yet I still fly Assault Ships and Battlecruisers. The reasons is simple: PVE is such a mind numbing chore that any time I am forced to do it for more than a mission or two I lose all will to play the game. I understand that a part of the Draw here is that there is legitimate risk when you undock and all, but every hour I'm forced to grind out cash to replace a ship because I'm ******ed erodes my will to actually continue paying for the game.
I'm not sure if there IS a solution to this problem though. If they upped the rewards for PVE then either everyone would be flying yet another tier of stupidly expensive ships or prices would inflate to compensate. GTC's may be a solution, but I'm loathe to expend real money on a virtual spaceship (even though, techinically I do so anyway by virtue of continuing to pay my subscription fees).
|
destinationZERO
Minmatar
Pain Management Services
|
Posted - 2009.05.22 07:50:00 -
[53]
"To the devs . Current price"
/thread
|
Infinity Ziona
Minmatar
I AM BETTER THAN YOU
|
Posted - 2009.05.22 08:07:00 -
[54]
Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 22/05/2009 08:08:09
Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton
Originally by: Infinity Ziona
SP is 1x. Its hardly a big issue.
With fittings its closer to 150 / 200 mill. Recons are paper thin. T3 is extremely durable.
Heres a fitting, not my own but will demonstrate:
"Well the setup below with almost full slave implants sits at 309k EHP, with 473 DPS from its drones. It permaruns everything including its MWD, and you can sacrifice 50-100k of the EHP to fit more utility/DPS in the high slots.
I dont think the Ishtar can really get close to this. And mind you, the cost of the ship and its subsystems aside, this is with T2 modules only, faction modules take these babies to pure OP status.
If the prices drop to T2 levels, nobody will be flying T2 imo.
[Proteus, Buffer Tank]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Damage Control II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
800mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
10MN Digital Booster Rockets
Warp Disruptor II
Stasis Webifier II
Light Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Light Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Light Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
Trimark Armor Pump I
Trimark Armor Pump I
Trimark Armor Pump I
Proteus Defensive - Augmented Plating
Proteus Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Proteus Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir
Proteus Offensive - Drone Synthesis Projector
Proteus Propulsion - Localized Injectors
Ogre II x4"
Edit:
Putting that into EFT = 375k ehp not 307 with slave set. close to 400k ehp.
have fun with your brick.
Im pretty sure 1k ms permarunning mwd is fast enough for a cruiser, especially a droneboat with 375kehp.
Ganking Buddhist Nun |
Infinity Ziona
Minmatar
I AM BETTER THAN YOU
|
Posted - 2009.05.22 08:24:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 22/05/2009 03:05:36
Originally by: Infinity Ziona
I dont think the Ishtar can really get close to this.
You think wrong. The Ishtar may not be able to be as awesome a bait ship, but it has some critical advantages:
1) Speed. Speed is life for cruisers, your Proteus is just going to get tackled and ganked.
2) Dps. 5x heavies vs. 4x heavies.
3) Drone bay size. The Ishtar can carry a huge variety of drones and plenty of replacements, the Proteus can't.
4) Ewar. The Ishtar has mids free for ewar, the Proteus doesn't.
5) Cost. 100 mil hull vs. 300 mil hull (assuming they ever reach the intended price).
T3 ships are good, but they aren't going to completely replace T2.
1. 1058 m/s permarunning mwd.
2. Ishtar 375m2 vs Proteus 225m2
3. Ishtar will have 95 more dps from drone damage.
4. Proteus is a t3 customizable ship. If I want an extra slot I can configure it for that. Not that I would use ecm on it unless I was setting up a t3 ecm ship.
5. Cost is only a factor if you lose it. Its highly likely going up against an Ishtar in my proteus that I would trounce that Ishtar to hell and back.
Ganking Buddhist Nun |
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
|
Posted - 2009.05.22 08:40:00 -
[56]
Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 22/05/2009 08:40:50
Originally by: Infinity Ziona
1. 1058 m/s permarunning mwd.
Which is half as fast as an Ishtar, and several hundred m/s slower than any non-comedy HAC/recon.
Quote:
2. Ishtar 375m2 vs Proteus 225m2
I rest my case. That's 150m3 more, or a full set of sentries/spare ogres/2x flights of mediums, and a set of warrior IIs.
Quote:
3. Ishtar will have 95 more dps from drone damage.
Exactly. The Ishtar gets 25% more dps than the Proteus (we're ignoring the lol gun damage).
Quote:
4. Proteus is a t3 customizable ship. If I want an extra slot I can configure it for that. Not that I would use ecm on it unless I was setting up a t3 ecm ship.
Good luck getting a decent number of mids on a Proteus.
PS: there's more to ewar than ECM. Try tracking disruptors sometime.
Quote:
5. Cost is only a factor if you lose it. Its highly likely going up against an Ishtar in my proteus that I would trounce that Ishtar to hell and back.
No it isn't. The Ishtar is going to orbit you at 20km, out-run your heavy drones, and call in a couple friends to gank your overpriced brick. Or just kill you really slowly solo, while all you can do is sit there helplessly and wait to die.
-----------
|
Vrabac
Zawa's Fan Club
|
Posted - 2009.05.22 08:44:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 22/05/2009 03:05:36
Originally by: Infinity Ziona
I dont think the Ishtar can really get close to this.
You think wrong. The Ishtar may not be able to be as awesome a bait ship, but it has some critical advantages:
1) Speed. Speed is life for cruisers, your Proteus is just going to get tackled and ganked.
2) Dps. 5x heavies vs. 4x heavies.
3) Drone bay size. The Ishtar can carry a huge variety of drones and plenty of replacements, the Proteus can't.
4) Ewar. The Ishtar has mids free for ewar, the Proteus doesn't.
5) Cost. 100 mil hull vs. 300 mil hull (assuming they ever reach the intended price).
T3 ships are good, but they aren't going to completely replace T2.
Can't beat monster tank. The "proteus is just going to get tackled and ganked" is kinda moot point since anyone commiting to a pvp fight is going to get tackled, including the ishtar. You can get similar results with legion, 2 plates and hams, close to 300 k ehp with slaves and 600ish dps, but that's with 2 lows spent on bcus. Beats sacrilege in my book, no matter somewhat less agility. I won't be jumping without a scout in a t3 ship anyway will I? Beats absolution too, somewhat less dps but way more durability + less cap vulnerability and 4th mid slot. Come to think of it, beats most battleships at short ranges, better tank for less dps but 3 times smaller signature radius. But yeah t3 ships suck balls. 
They can do a lot of different tasks, in pvp or pve, and they can do them all well. I really don't think there's much use of arguing about that. Now question is how low should the price go, since too low might mean t3 online tbh.
|
Infinity Ziona
Minmatar
I AM BETTER THAN YOU
|
Posted - 2009.05.22 09:09:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 22/05/2009 08:40:50
Originally by: Infinity Ziona
1. 1058 m/s permarunning mwd.
Which is half as fast as an Ishtar, and several hundred m/s slower than any non-comedy HAC/recon.
Quote:
2. Ishtar 375m2 vs Proteus 225m2
I rest my case. That's 150m3 more, or a full set of sentries/spare ogres/2x flights of mediums, and a set of warrior IIs.
Quote:
3. Ishtar will have 95 more dps from drone damage.
Exactly. The Ishtar gets 25% more dps than the Proteus (we're ignoring the lol gun damage).
Quote:
4. Proteus is a t3 customizable ship. If I want an extra slot I can configure it for that. Not that I would use ecm on it unless I was setting up a t3 ecm ship.
Good luck getting a decent number of mids on a Proteus.
PS: there's more to ewar than ECM. Try tracking disruptors sometime.
Quote:
5. Cost is only a factor if you lose it. Its highly likely going up against an Ishtar in my proteus that I would trounce that Ishtar to hell and back.
No it isn't. The Ishtar is going to orbit you at 20km, out-run your heavy drones, and call in a couple friends to gank your overpriced brick. Or just kill you really slowly solo, while all you can do is sit there helplessly and wait to die.
Ishtar with level V relevant skills is 1295 with t2 mwd and 1 1600mm plate. With overheat its 1829. With max skills to V its not cap stable so you have no permarunning mwd. It has 22k ehp. It has no overheat bonus.
Proteus with level V relevant skills is 1346 with t2 mwd. With overheat is 1900. With max skills to V its cap stable at 85%. It has 44k ehp. It has 25% overheat bonus.
Even with the brick setup above my proteus will run you down and kick your ass because your not cap stable and I am.
Ganking Buddhist Nun |
Lewyrus
Jugis Modo Utopia
Skunk-Works
|
Posted - 2009.05.22 09:21:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Vrabac
They can do a lot of different tasks, in pvp or pve, and they can do them all well. I really don't think there's much use of arguing about that. Now question is how low should the price go, since too low might mean t3 online tbh.
Let's pretend it's already T3 online! 
FC: We're under attack! X up people!
Guy1: x webloki
FC: for the love of god, bring a rapier!
Guy2: x siegecommand-tengu
FC: you'll be sitting at the pos anyways, so meh...
Guy3: x ogre-proeus
FC: what, you ran out of ishtars?
Guy4: x HAMgu
FC: no drakes ffs!
...
I kinda think T3 is meant to be the bastard spawn of HACs-recons-command ships. The thing is, they don't match the recon's EW-capability, the HAC's speed in some cases, the BC's throwawayability, the logi's range... Maybe they best match with the field command ships, but it's either gangmodule or tank for T3s (on a side note, I think they could increase the eng. subsys. boniis to 7,5%/level).
I'd be happy, if they would come around 2-400mil fitted. I don't think that T3's really endangering anything other than HACs in some cases.
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Qui Shon
|
Posted - 2009.05.22 09:22:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Arik VanClaw
According to this thread:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1060651
Setting up a station in w-space decreases spawns to 1 site per day.
I've seen NO credible evidence to support that claim, in that thread or any other. Nor anything to refute the theory that it's just the same old 72h despawn timer that has confused explorers for as long as I've been playing Eve, still confusing players in W-space.
Otoh, I've even seen a dev post where he specifically says POS's are not linked to any spawn mechanics.
|
|
|
Tippia
Raddick Explorations
Intrepid Crossing
|
Posted - 2009.05.22 09:30:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Infinity Ziona
Ishtar with level V relevant skills is 1295 with t2 mwd and 1 1600mm plate. With overheat its 1829. With max skills to V its not cap stable so you have no permarunning mwd. It has 22k ehp. It has no overheat bonus.
I think the problem here is that you've decided to failfit your Ishtar.
———
“If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡…
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.”
— Karath Piki |
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
|
Posted - 2009.05.22 09:32:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Infinity Ziona
Ishtar with level V relevant skills is 1295 with t2 mwd and 1 1600mm plate. With overheat its 1829. With max skills to V its not cap stable so you have no permarunning mwd. It has 22k ehp. It has no overheat bonus.
Could we please not talk about comedy setups like 1600mm plated Ishtars? A proper Ishtar setup is going 1827km/s, without overheat or implants. And since you're including a slave set on your Proteus, it's only fair to include a snake set on the Ishtar, making it even faster.
PS: cap boosters are your friend. The Ishtar can perma-run the MWD until you run out of cap charges.
Quote:
Proteus with level V relevant skills is 1346 with t2 mwd. With overheat is 1900. With max skills to V its cap stable at 85%. It has 44k ehp. It has 25% overheat bonus.
So you're 500m/s slower, even if you sacrifice all that armor HP you were bragging about.
PS: that Ishtar has 36k EHP. I think I'll quite happily trade 10k EHP for 500m/s speed advantage, 25% more dps, and much more versatility in drones.
Quote:
Even with the brick setup above my proteus will run you down and kick your ass because your not cap stable and I am.
The Ishtar is cap-stable more than long enough for its gang to kill your overpriced brick, and even if it can't kill you solo, as soon as it runs out of cap charges, it can effortlessly disengage and there's nothing you can do to stop it.
-----------
|
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
|
Posted - 2009.05.22 09:36:00 -
[63]
Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 22/05/2009 09:36:10
Originally by: Vrabac
Can't beat monster tank. The "proteus is just going to get tackled and ganked" is kinda moot point since anyone commiting to a pvp fight is going to get tackled, including the ishtar. You can get similar results with legion, 2 plates and hams, close to 300 k ehp with slaves and 600ish dps, but that's with 2 lows spent on bcus. Beats sacrilege in my book, no matter somewhat less agility. I won't be jumping without a scout in a t3 ship anyway will I? Beats absolution too, somewhat less dps but way more durability + less cap vulnerability and 4th mid slot. Come to think of it, beats most battleships at short ranges, better tank for less dps but 3 times smaller signature radius. But yeah t3 ships suck balls.
Haven't we been over this already, with the comedy uber-tank Drake setups? A ship that can do nothing but tank is a worthless ship, it'll just get tackled (so the expensive killmail doesn't escape), and then saved for last, since its offense is considerably weaker than the equivalent HAC. And once the rest of the gang is dead, all that massive EHP is going to give you is a bit more time to beg for a ransom in local before you go down.
The only T3 cruisers worth flying (outside of covops/bubble-immune setups) are the Loki and Tengu. The Loki because a Vagabond with a 40km web is just absurdly powerful, the Tengu because the Cerberus is impossible to fit, and the Nighthawk is trash.
-----------
|
Infinity Ziona
Minmatar
I AM BETTER THAN YOU
|
Posted - 2009.05.22 09:58:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Originally by: Infinity Ziona
Ishtar with level V relevant skills is 1295 with t2 mwd and 1 1600mm plate. With overheat its 1829. With max skills to V its not cap stable so you have no permarunning mwd. It has 22k ehp. It has no overheat bonus.
Could we please not talk about comedy setups like 1600mm plated Ishtars? A proper Ishtar setup is going 1827km/s, without overheat or implants. And since you're including a slave set on your Proteus, it's only fair to include a snake set on the Ishtar, making it even faster.
PS: cap boosters are your friend. The Ishtar can perma-run the MWD until you run out of cap charges.
Quote:
Proteus with level V relevant skills is 1346 with t2 mwd. With overheat is 1900. With max skills to V its cap stable at 85%. It has 44k ehp. It has 25% overheat bonus.
So you're 500m/s slower, even if you sacrifice all that armor HP you were bragging about.
PS: that Ishtar has 36k EHP. I think I'll quite happily trade 10k EHP for 500m/s speed advantage, 25% more dps, and much more versatility in drones.
Quote:
Even with the brick setup above my proteus will run you down and kick your ass because your not cap stable and I am.
The Ishtar is cap-stable more than long enough for its gang to kill your overpriced brick, and even if it can't kill you solo, as soon as it runs out of cap charges, it can effortlessly disengage and there's nothing you can do to stop it.
The proteus is inherently faster, with 100% more EHP and limitless cap. Your tactic to outrun the proteus in a slower ship is nonsense since whatever you do to increase your base speed I can do to increase mine to keep it above yours.
Since we are using theoretical gangs, my gang could just as easily tackle and gank you, except with your limited cap and 50% less ehp my proteus will still be at 50% while your popping into your pod.
Sorry Merin but you lose (again).
Ganking Buddhist Nun |
Tippia
Raddick Explorations
Intrepid Crossing
|
Posted - 2009.05.22 10:22:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Infinity Ziona
Your tactic to outrun the proteus in a slower ship is nonsense since whatever you do to increase your base speed I can do to increase mine to keep it above yours.
…thereby losing the monster EHP you keep touting, thus rendering your entire argument moot.
———
“If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡…
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.”
— Karath Piki |
Izzybella
|
Posted - 2009.05.22 10:24:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Omara Otawan
Originally by: Izzybella
Also because they are all massivly exspensive at the moment not many people will buy them so the market will become saturated, this will also cause a drop in price. Learn economics.
Market saturation would mean you'd see like 1.5-3k Tengus on market. At the moment I cant see any evidence of a reasonable supply of ships or subsystems, though they already reached the smaller market hubs in some numbers it seems.
Given that from 300k characters ingame maybe 50k are capable of piloting a t3 ship and assuming 25% of those actually try to get one, we are looking at 12.5k units that are needed.
But we are waiting for a over-supply situation, so triple that number at the very least if you expect prices to come down.
I'd expect it to be at least a year until we are close to the 700-800mill mark for a ship with subsystems, which would be somewhat reasonable.
Your right, I forgot to factor in the number of players actually capable of flying these ships. This number will also have to increase. All of these factors together will bring down the price, no indiviual one will achieve it. I don't think it will be quite as long as a year before the prices start to drop but I don't think it will be far off.
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Infinity Ziona
Minmatar
I AM BETTER THAN YOU
|
Posted - 2009.05.22 10:41:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Infinity Ziona
Your tactic to outrun the proteus in a slower ship is nonsense since whatever you do to increase your base speed I can do to increase mine to keep it above yours.
àthereby losing the monster EHP you keep touting, thus rendering your entire argument moot.
EHP <-> Speed. Move it in any direction I still got much more ehp and superior speed. I dont recall saying EHP > all. I just said my proteus got similiar hac damage with 375k of ehp and at 300m thats way too OP. Not that that was the fit to pwn all comers.
Ganking Buddhist Nun |
Infinity Ziona
Minmatar
I AM BETTER THAN YOU
|
Posted - 2009.05.22 10:44:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Infinity Ziona
Ishtar with level V relevant skills is 1295 with t2 mwd and 1 1600mm plate. With overheat its 1829. With max skills to V its not cap stable so you have no permarunning mwd. It has 22k ehp. It has no overheat bonus.
I think the problem here is that you've decided to failfit your Ishtar.
No the problem is your comprehension.
The only things fitted were:
Proteus:
1 1600mm plate t2.
1 10mn MWD t2.
Ishtar
1 1600mm plate t2
1 10mn MWD t2.
Ganking Buddhist Nun |
Vrabac
Zawa's Fan Club
|
Posted - 2009.05.22 10:51:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 22/05/2009 09:36:10
Originally by: Vrabac
Can't beat monster tank. The "proteus is just going to get tackled and ganked" is kinda moot point since anyone commiting to a pvp fight is going to get tackled, including the ishtar. You can get similar results with legion, 2 plates and hams, close to 300 k ehp with slaves and 600ish dps, but that's with 2 lows spent on bcus. Beats sacrilege in my book, no matter somewhat less agility. I won't be jumping without a scout in a t3 ship anyway will I? Beats absolution too, somewhat less dps but way more durability + less cap vulnerability and 4th mid slot. Come to think of it, beats most battleships at short ranges, better tank for less dps but 3 times smaller signature radius. But yeah t3 ships suck balls.
Haven't we been over this already, with the comedy uber-tank Drake setups? A ship that can do nothing but tank is a worthless ship, it'll just get tackled (so the expensive killmail doesn't escape), and then saved for last, since its offense is considerably weaker than the equivalent HAC. And once the rest of the gang is dead, all that massive EHP is going to give you is a bit more time to beg for a ransom in local before you go down.
The only T3 cruisers worth flying (outside of covops/bubble-immune setups) are the Loki and Tengu. The Loki because a Vagabond with a 40km web is just absurdly powerful, the Tengu because the Cerberus is impossible to fit, and the Nighthawk is trash.
You missed the part where the Legion in question has 2 BCUs and does over 600 dps which is notably more than 2 BCU sacrilege. It is not a comedy fit. It uses 4 out of 6 lows for tank, and remaining 2 for damage. If you think this is similar to 4 SPR passive drake of uselessness than I don't really get your reasoning.
The proposed Proteus is overly tanked but it's a good if somewhat extreme way of showing that t3 cruisers are powerful ships. It can, for example, be fitted to do 1000+ dps while having about 200k ehp. Is this a comedy uber-tank drake for you? Dunno, I wouldn't agree with that.
|
Admiral IceBlock
Caldari
Northern Intelligence
|
Posted - 2009.05.22 10:52:00 -
[70]
Can you even fly a t3 ship?
T3 are controlled by supply and demand. If players can't be arsed to go into wormholes to get the needed supplies, prices go up. Are you with me?
Minerals too, are controlled by supply and demand. If players can't be arsed to mine to get the needed supplies, prices go up. Are you with me?
Loyalty points and faction rewards too, are controlled by supply and demand. If players can't be arsed to mission to get the needed supplies, prices go up. Are you with me?
Basic economy 101; you with me?
|
|
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations
Intrepid Crossing
|
Posted - 2009.05.22 11:04:00 -
[71]
Edited by: Tippia on 22/05/2009 11:05:41
Originally by: Admiral IceBlock
Basic economy 101; you with me?
Except, of course, that you're quite wrong about the reasons — see the other thread you spammed for further details.
Originally by: Infinity Ziona
No the problem is your comprehension.
No, the problem is that you're making an irrelevant comparison between unrealistic fits.
———
“If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡…
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.”
— Karath Piki |
Qual
Gallente
Cornexant Research
|
Posted - 2009.05.22 11:10:00 -
[72]
Originally by: E Vile
... with selected subsystems ...
Found your problem. Choose different setup and you can get it for about 1B.
Yeah, thats still a lot, but they are dropping fast atm.. Especially subsystems.
"The short version: Qual is right." -Papa Smurf |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2009.05.22 11:13:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Qual
Originally by: E Vile
... with selected subsystems ...
Found your problem. Choose different setup and you can get it for about 1B.
Yeah, thats still a lot, but they are dropping fast atm.. Especially subsystems.
The problem is that you can't select a subsystem when you reverse engineer, so there's a glut of "unwanted" subsystems that sell very near manufacture price (completely ignoring the reverse engineering cost, which is actually quite substantial).
EVE issues|Mining revamp|Build stuff|Make ISK |
Infinity Ziona
Minmatar
I AM BETTER THAN YOU
|
Posted - 2009.05.22 11:19:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Tippia
Edited by: Tippia on 22/05/2009 11:05:41
Originally by: Admiral IceBlock
Basic economy 101; you with me?
Except, of course, that you're quite wrong about the reasons ù see the other thread you spammed for further details.
Originally by: Infinity Ziona
No the problem is your comprehension.
No, the problem is that you're making an irrelevant comparison between unrealistic fits.
No its a relevant comparison on the base stats of the ships specifically regarding base speed and EHP and stable cap.
Fitting other modules to modify the base stats would not change the relationship since anything you could fit on the Ishtar to gain speed or tank or cap would also be able to fit on the proteus to counter that gain.
Since the Proteus is superior in all 3 areas as well as in grid and cpu its a non-argument.
Proving once again, that, I AM BETTER THAN YOU. |
Rukia KuchikiSan
|
Posted - 2009.05.22 11:34:00 -
[75]
Originally by: E Vile
I could see if this ship was TWICE AS GOOD AS A CARRIER, but come on devs...WTF!
Lol, you fail, full stop 
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Rajere
No Trademark
|
Posted - 2009.05.22 12:08:00 -
[76]
The "ishtar" Proteus is the absolute worst Possible Proteus "theme" you could build your subsystems around, ever. It's terrible, no idea why you're using that one to champion T3 ships, the Ishtar outclasses it in everyway.
The opinions expressed in my posts do represent my corp
--------------------------
NOTR
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Qual
Gallente
Cornexant Research
|
Posted - 2009.05.22 12:33:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Akita T
The problem is that you can't select a subsystem when you reverse engineer
That is indeed one of the huge problems atm.. The issue is further compunded by some people strange urge to actaully build those crap bpc's even though they know they are only going to loose even more ISK by doing so...
"The short version: Qual is right." -Papa Smurf |
Zitala
|
Posted - 2009.05.22 12:48:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Jonathan Calvert
First off, t3 prices have already dropped by 50% or more since launch. I am doing my best to bring them down further, by shaving off the profit margin, but until others go along or other suppliers come online, its not going to happen.
Wow, you must really hate T3. It's a complex supply chain and everyone in it wants their cut. If you shave the profit margin off the consumer prices, margins all across the board hit the wall. Of course, traders/industrialists worth their salt just adapt and drop their buy prices. Meaning: less cash for the folks harvesting materials in w-space, who are already the weakest link in the chain. With more and more pirates crawling around in W-space, it may thus fast degenerate into a huge version of lowsec: high risk, low rewards, with absolutely no incentive to even go there.
In summary: Yeah, truly great idea to kill prices before the whole chain has even started to stabilize. Not.
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Labratory Rat
|
Posted - 2009.05.22 14:08:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Zitala
In summary: Yeah, truly great idea to kill prices before the whole chain has even started to stabilize. Not.
The best thing that can happen to T3 is prices going back up. Nothing else will galvanize CCP sufficiently to acknowledge their design flaws and re-envision Apoc.
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Sun Ra
The Royal Syndicate
Eternal Rapture
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Posted - 2009.05.22 15:20:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Infinity Ziona
With fittings its closer to 150 / 200 mill. Recons are paper thin. T3 is extremely durable.
But you dont count in the fitting cost of the t3 ship? which is more than a recon as most will pimp it more
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Infinity Ziona
Minmatar
I AM BETTER THAN YOU
|
Posted - 2009.05.22 15:55:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Rajere
The "ishtar" Proteus is the absolute worst Possible Proteus "theme" you could build your subsystems around, ever. It's terrible, no idea why you're using that one to champion T3 ships, the Ishtar outclasses it in everyway.
LOL:
Highs: I 5 P 6 OC P
Mids: I 5 P 3 OC I
Lows: I 5 P 7 OC P
Grid: I 356 P 512 OC P
CPU: I 883 P 1368 OC P
Bandw: I 125 P 100 OC I
EHP: I 10k P 32k OC P
Cap: I 1400 P 1800 OC P
Tar Rng: I 75k P 109 OC P
Sen Str: I 16 P 33 OC P
Speed: I 226 P 238 OC P
Drn Bay: I 375 P 225 OC I
I = Ishtar
P = Proteus
OC = Outclassed By:
Result: Proteus outclasses Ishtar by 10 to 4. In EHP by 300% alone. Its clearly superior making your statement laughable.
Read the sig!
Proving once again, that, I AM BETTER THAN YOU. |
Jonathan Calvert
Minmatar
Empire Mining and Trade
|
Posted - 2009.05.22 17:08:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Zitala
Originally by: Jonathan Calvert
First off, t3 prices have already dropped by 50% or more since launch. I am doing my best to bring them down further, by shaving off the profit margin, but until others go along or other suppliers come online, its not going to happen.
Wow, you must really hate T3. It's a complex supply chain and everyone in it wants their cut. If you shave the profit margin off the consumer prices, margins all across the board hit the wall. Of course, traders/industrialists worth their salt just adapt and drop their buy prices. Meaning: less cash for the folks harvesting materials in w-space, who are already the weakest link in the chain. With more and more pirates crawling around in W-space, it may thus fast degenerate into a huge version of lowsec: high risk, low rewards, with absolutely no incentive to even go there.
In summary: Yeah, truly great idea to kill prices before the whole chain has even started to stabilize. Not.
I disagree. What we need is to lower overall prices, so that people actually buy and use them, thus generating more demand for t3 ships. This in turn will result in more demand for parts, and thus more demand for people to go get them. When I say Im shaving off profit margin, there is still a ways to go. Im making plenty of isk, but there is very little demand at current market prices. Volume is where the big profits are at.
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london
Gallente
Dark-Rising
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Posted - 2009.05.22 17:10:00 -
[83]
Proteus is down to 1.8b on market. I saw a hull for sale in Hek for 690m.
It is going down in price.
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Shardrael
Caldari
Titan Industries Technology Team
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Posted - 2009.05.22 19:06:00 -
[84]
there is some p. pro eft warrioring itt
Signature locked. Please submit a petition to discuss the matter further. Navigator |
MukkBarovian
|
Posted - 2009.05.22 20:28:00 -
[85]
Edited by: MukkBarovian on 22/05/2009 20:31:11
Confirming that there are two viable ishtar setups:
#1 Shield Tanked Nano Ishtar
#2 Dominix
In enemy territory that Proteus setup will get run down and blobbed.
In a 1v1 with an ishtar you will be kited. He might grind you down himself, or more likely about 5 mins later the blob will land on you. Either way his vastly superior speed will mean that he really has to **** up to die.
In a fleet battle a non-******ed fc will have someone point you, and then will ignore you as he tries to win the battle. If he does he will kill you a part of the victory celebration. The ultimate form of teabaging the enemy fc who will get to add a multibillion dollar ship to the pyre of his failure.
Thats not saying a proteus at a more reasonable price is bad. But the ishtar definitely still has a place.
Edit- I forgot the last use. Sitting around docked in your home system with a bunch of buddies and scouts waiting for a ****** to stumble in so you can gank him with your pimp ship. I used to have a Machariel for that. But it almost died in a fleet battle and I sold it afterwards.
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Ana Vyr
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Posted - 2009.05.22 20:33:00 -
[86]
I'd love to get into wormhole complex running, but my corp is focussed on living in 0.0, not runing wormhole content.
OK that's fine, so I can jump clone back to high sec and solo the content (when time permits)...but that seems to require a battlecruiser to run the level 1-2 wormhole sites...and w-space is essentially lowsec. Do you bring a solo BC into lowsec to run missions?
Hmm, yeah, there's a good probality of losing the ship doing that. Is the stuff you can get from a 1-2 level w-space combat site worth a fitted passive tank BC? Can you fit the BC for PvP and still run the sites effectively? The answers seem to be no.
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VanNostrum
Perkone
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Posted - 2009.05.22 22:09:00 -
[87]
The way i see it, the availability of T3 ships skillwise is a problem. The low level skills make it trainable by everyone, even fairly new characters, and that increases the pool of pplayers that can fly the ship. High demand causes prices to increase.
There are still many T2 ships that i had expected to go down in price over the years but the player population increasing nonstop just keeps increasing the demand, and so prices just don't drop even though high end mineral prices dropped by a large amount in the last 3 years.
T1 ships using more of the low end minerals caused increase in low end mineral prices as T1 production sky rocketed with the influx of new players. Tritanium tripled in price in 2.5 years while megacyte dropped by large amount.
So now everybody can fly T3, everybody will want T3, demand will go up as well as their prices, there is no stopping that unless CCP either increases skill requirement of T3s to decrease the demand, or decrease the production costs.
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Shadowsword
Epsilon Lyr
Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2009.05.22 22:46:00 -
[88]
Originally by: VanNostrum
The way i see it, the availability of T3 ships skillwise is a problem. The low level skills make it trainable by everyone, even fairly new characters, and that increases the pool of pplayers that can fly the ship. High demand causes prices to increase.
High demand? What a joke...
Go check the volume of T3 cruisers sold. Something isn't in "high demand" when there's less than 50 transactions a day.
The reason prices are high is that the production cost is insane, period. Ask any competent builder for comfirmation.
Quote:
There are still many T2 ships that i had expected to go down in price over the years but the player population increasing nonstop just keeps increasing the demand, and so prices just don't drop even though high end mineral prices dropped by a large amount in the last 3 years.
Sorry, but for this you deserve to be laughed at.
What does megacyte or zydrine have to do with T2 prices? What DOES have something to do with their price are Dysprosium and Promethium, and they've never cost so much as they do now.
Quote:
T1 ships using more of the low end minerals caused increase in low end mineral prices as T1 production sky rocketed with the influx of new players. Tritanium tripled in price in 2.5 years while megacyte dropped by large amount.
So now everybody can fly T3, everybody will want T3, demand will go up as well as their prices, there is no stopping that unless CCP either increases skill requirement of T3s to decrease the demand, or decrease the production costs.
Sp loss. That will make some think twice about it.
SP accessibility or not, T3 cruisers will always cost significantly more than a Recon or HAS. The one thing that make command ships relatively rare on the field are NOT their high SP requirements, but their production cost. You think anyone can afford a potential 300M isk loss each time they want to pvp?
------------------------------------------
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Jones Bones
Beyond Divinity Inc
|
Posted - 2009.05.22 22:58:00 -
[89]
Of course they're desperate; they can smell their deaths, and the sound they'll make rattling their cages will serve as a warning to the rest.
===================
Go Bucks! |
Baillif
|
Posted - 2009.05.22 23:11:00 -
[90]
It is expensive because since the gas crash there is nothing to keep a significant number of people in the wormhole systems aside from gouging the **** out the rest of you for BPCs and sleeper components.
One simple change would change all this. Change the sleeper tag drop rates or prices to bring them into line with the level 4 mission rewards. More players would head for the wormholes and start up operations as a result. The T3 prices would drop because of the sheer volume of T3 stuff that would begin to flow out of the WH's.
As things are now if you increased the drop rates of anything else players would just leave the T3 market (and the wormholes) as it stopped being worth doing. Prices would stay high.
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VanNostrum
Perkone
|
Posted - 2009.05.22 23:24:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Shadowsword
High demand? What a joke...
Go check the volume of T3 cruisers sold. Something isn't in "high demand" when there's less than 50 transactions a day.
The reason prices are high is that the production cost is insane, period. Ask any competent builder for comfirmation.
Daily transaction now doesn't mean anything on demand. You obviously don't know what demand means. There is a reason why somethings are far more expensive in the world than others, not because they are much more expensive to make but because everybody would want owning one.
Originally by: Shadowsword
Sp loss. That will make some think twice about it.
Sorry, but for this you deserve to be laughed at.
Who would think twice about it? Why would anyone avoid flying a T3 for the fear of losing a rank of level 1 skill which you can train in couple days? Plus you don't have to lose any SP when you lose the ship. If T3 were 10 mil wouldn't we see every single player flying one without giving a jack sh*t about losing skills. Hell, everyone would be flying one even if they lost ALL T3 skills. For this you deserve to be laughed at again.
Originally by: Shadowsword
SP accessibility or not, T3 cruisers will always cost significantly more than a Recon or HAS. The one thing that make command ships relatively rare on the field are NOT their high SP requirements, but their production cost. You think anyone can afford a potential 300M isk loss each time they want to pvp?
You're saying if the .5 mil population of eve had skills to fly command ships, their prices wouldn't go up? Do you know anything about economy at all? Many people fly ships in pvp with potentially billions isk worth of loss.
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Infinity Ziona
Minmatar
I AM BETTER THAN YOU
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Posted - 2009.05.23 04:01:00 -
[92]
Originally by: MukkBarovian
Edited by: MukkBarovian on 22/05/2009 20:31:11
Confirming that there are two viable ishtar setups:
#1 Shield Tanked Nano Ishtar
#2 Dominix
In enemy territory that Proteus setup will get run down and blobbed.
In a 1v1 with an ishtar you will be kited. He might grind you down himself, or more likely about 5 mins later the blob will land on you. Either way his vastly superior speed will mean that he really has to **** up to die.
In a fleet battle a non-******ed fc will have someone point you, and then will ignore you as he tries to win the battle. If he does he will kill you a part of the victory celebration. The ultimate form of teabaging the enemy fc who will get to add a multibillion dollar ship to the pyre of his failure.
Thats not saying a proteus at a more reasonable price is bad. But the ishtar definitely still has a place.
Edit- I forgot the last use. Sitting around docked in your home system with a bunch of buddies and scouts waiting for a ****** to stumble in so you can gank him with your pimp ship. I used to have a Machariel for that. But it almost died in a fleet battle and I sold it afterwards.
Read first then post.
1. The fit was not a pvp pwn all fit. It was demonstrating how much armor you can get on a proteus and still do hac like damage.
2. An ishtar is SLOWER then a proteus
3. In enemy territory an ishtar (or any ship) will get run down and blobbed
4. In a fleet battle all t3 will be primaried. Why would you take one to a fleet battle unless it was cov ops config?
Look above at my last post. The ishtar is far outclassed by the proteus ishtar variant (lots more cap, lots more grid, lots more cpu, more speed, far more ehp, double the targetting range, permarunning mwd without booster and a few additonal things)
Ishtar has 25% more drone damage (95dps with ogres), and 150 more drone bay and a mid slot advantage
Proving once again, that, I AM BETTER THAN YOU. |
Infinity Ziona
Minmatar
I AM BETTER THAN YOU
|
Posted - 2009.05.23 04:08:00 -
[93]
Originally by: london
Proteus is down to 1.8b on market. I saw a hull for sale in Hek for 690m.
It is going down in price.
I have had a proteus hull for sale at 700 mill in Rens for 2 weeks. I grabbed one with subsystems from jita, took it to heimatar and made half a bill selling the subsystems at much higher prices. They went fast but hull is still there. :)
Proving once again, that, I AM BETTER THAN YOU. |
MukkBarovian
|
Posted - 2009.05.23 05:27:00 -
[94]
I went ahead and eft'd the Proteus. You can get 5 midslots on it. Use those for shield tanking and put some nanos in the lows and I'll let you claim youre faster than the standard istar.
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Shadowsword
Epsilon Lyr
Tau Ceti Federation
|
Posted - 2009.05.23 06:18:00 -
[95]
Originally by: VanNostrum
Daily transaction now doesn't mean anything on demand. You obviously don't know what demand means. There is a reason why somethings are far more expensive in the world than others, not because they are much more expensive to make but because everybody would want owning one.
Everybody want damage control II on their ships. How much do they cost?
They don't cost much because they don't cost much to make, and can be made in volume. That's what you fail to understand.
Quote:
Originally by: Shadowsword
SP accessibility or not, T3 cruisers will always cost significantly more than a Recon or HAS. The one thing that make command ships relatively rare on the field are NOT their high SP requirements, but their production cost. You think anyone can afford a potential 300M isk loss each time they want to pvp?
You're saying if the .5 mil population of eve had skills to fly command ships, their prices wouldn't go up? Do you know anything about economy at all? Many people fly ships in pvp with potentially billions isk worth of loss.
Faction battleships. They're not hard to get into, 80+% of pvpes can, yet how many of them are used in pvp?
------------------------------------------
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Vily
Special Projects Corporation
Exalted.
|
Posted - 2009.05.23 08:16:00 -
[96]
The main problems are thus...
i Live out of low-sec and generally explore in a 3 jump radius around my HQ meaning i have a general area of about 13 systems, to FULLY explore each and every system within this area will take me in the run of about 2-3 Hours. On average, exploring this amount of systems will net me between 1-5 wormholes. of these, (in low-sec remember) i get a couple class 3's ( unsecured etc. sites i think) and an odd dangerous or class 1/2.
now my point here is this. for me to FIND and then access the resources available takes me on average 3-5 hours TOTAL. I can't just jump into a ship and go, i have to commit to exploring for a night, pre-plan, form a gang and then do so. Even then sometimes the wormhole is decaying or as its stability disrupted to the point where i must cancel my planning or risk being stuck.
now lets say i find 5 wormholes, with that many odds are 1 or 2 will be posholes, with 1 or no sites left. of the other three im likely to get TWO MAYBE three RADAR sites total. with anywhere from 5-25 combat sites and a mix of gas and gravs. I dont even count magnometrics being that its pointless to run them currently.
Now there isn't just one bottleneck to T3 production there is actually FOUR. not 1, not 2, FOUR.
the first is the availability of wormholes. Increase wormhole age, (from 24H avg. to 48 or 72) so that people can find them and don't have to use them immediatly. also increase wormhole spawn rates
teh second bottleneck is radar sites. a t3 cruiser at BUILD COST(without bpc cost) atm is about 800m or less. the VAST majority of expense comes from the invention process which is greatly hampered by a lack of datacores and radar sites. to solve this INCREASE RADAR site spawn rate by a factor of AT LEAST THREE OR add a single radar can at the end of each combat site
the third bottleneck is Magnometric sites. Because of an uncertain invention formula and the general and widely accepted and proved belief that wrecked relic peices are not worth using because of the bottleneck in datacores mentioned in two. meaning that only class 5/6 mag sites are worth doing and thus GREATLY limiting supply. So, Either add a chance to get intact relics in low-level sites. OR quadrouple mag site commonness and still increas the commonness of malfunctioning and intact relic's. either way without a radar fix this is hard to see a solution too.
the Fourth bottleneck is the only other part of wormhole production.... GAS. while 320/540 is becoming more readily available im still thinking it may be problematic, however i think limiting this to class5/6's might be ok. to preserve the power of said sites.
solve that and you may see prices come close to 300m, MAYBE
-
 |
Rajere
No Trademark
|
Posted - 2009.05.23 13:41:00 -
[97]
Edited by: Rajere on 23/05/2009 13:45:43
Originally by: Infinity Ziona
Bunch of useless Idiocy comparing useless attributes
Here are the only factors that matter on the two ships, thus the only ones you should compare:
Mid Slots, Ishtar Wins
Drone Bandwidth, Ishtar Wins
Drone Bay, Ishtar Wins
Drone Control Range, Ishtar Wins
Speed, Ishtar Wins ****Unless you shield tank, The Ishtar is faster than Proteus, nobody gives 2 sh*ts about unmodified, unbonused base speed***
All you're other comparisons are irrelevant. EHP is irrelevant (Not to mention your EHP on the proteus turns you into a brick), if you're taking significant enough damage where EHP comes into play, it means you are tackled (heavily tackled) and you are dead, grats you'll pop 10 seconds after the Ishtar would have, except the Ishtar didn't get caught in the first place.
Ignoring the vast discrepancy in ISK cost, The Ishtar'd Proteus is 100% fail compared to the run of the mill T2 Ishtar. Add in cost and you should just kill yourself (in game) for even considering fitting it like that. Time to change your sig to something a little more accurate, newb.
You can only get 4 mids on an Ishtar'd Proteus. 5 mids would result in you losing 100mb drone bay and 25mb drone bandwidth, making it even more fail.
The opinions expressed in my posts do represent my corp
--------------------------
NOTR
|
Infinity Ziona
Minmatar
I AM BETTER THAN YOU
|
Posted - 2009.05.23 17:51:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Rajere
pointless insults designed to obscure baseless statements of fact
Proteus outclasses the Ishtar in almost all areas.
Midslots - Ishtar with mwd is not cap stable without injector, without sensor booster ishtar with level 5 skills = 67km targeting range. Thats your drone control range = 67km. With cap booster and sensor booster you are temporarily cap stable (almost as good as proteus without injector) and targeting range but you lose your mid slot advantage.
Drone Bandwidth - Ishtar gets around 100 dps extra from drones.
Drone Bay - Ishtar gets 100 m3 extra. Proteus can hold 2 full flights of 4 heavies + 1 spare heavy.
You can have your 100 dps and 100 extra pointless m3 and I'll keep the speed, the ehp, the grid, cpu, cap and all the rest of the useless things your ishtar doesnt need ;)
Now if you wanna come back and make some more pointless unsubstantiated unexplained statements of fact please be my guest.
Proving once again, that, I AM BETTER THAN YOU. |
Future Mutant
|
Posted - 2009.05.23 18:05:00 -
[99]
confirming that i personally have stopped the OP from going to wh's to gather materials to make his own strat cruiser.
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Rajere
No Trademark
|
Posted - 2009.05.23 22:03:00 -
[100]
Originally by: "newb"
You can have all of the things that make the "Ishtar" concept functional (DPS, Speed, Drone Range, available drones options), and I'll keep the useless things an ishtar doesnt need so I can fofofo in EFT and lose 2bil if I ever decide to undock to pvp in my fail ishtar proteus
Fixed for ya.
The opinions expressed in my posts do represent my corp
--------------------------
NOTR
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VanNostrum
Perkone
|
Posted - 2009.05.24 01:46:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Shadowsword
Everybody want damage control II on their ships. How much do they cost?
Errr, no, not everybody want damage control II on their ships. First of all not all setups require a damage control II, second of all it's a module not a ship, third it's bp is more acquirable than a T2 or T3 ship. Thats where you fial to understand.
Originally by: Shadowsword
Faction battleships. They're not hard to get into, 80+% of pvpes can, yet how many of them are used in pvp?
Errr, no, not 80% of ppl can fly faction battleships, heck not 80% of player base can even fly battleships. This char of mine is 2.5 years old and can't fly battleships. BSs and their weapon systems require a lot more training than T3 , not to mention you can't really run away in a BS, not to mention someone needs to do lotsa missions for a faction bs unlike slapping a bp in a slot and having it built automaticly
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Infinity Ziona
Minmatar
I AM BETTER THAN YOU
|
Posted - 2009.05.24 02:00:00 -
[102]
Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 24/05/2009 02:01:00
Originally by: Rajere
Originally by: "newb"
You can have all of the things that make the "Ishtar" concept functional (DPS, Speed, Drone Range, available drones options), and I'll keep the useless things an ishtar doesnt need so I can fofofo in EFT and lose 2bil if I ever decide to undock to pvp in my fail ishtar proteus
Fixed for ya.
The Proteus is not an Ishtar. It can be a better one if it likes though. End Of Story.
Editing my posts and calling me a newb, especially when I started in 2003, is more pointless obfuscation eh.
Read My Sig, Look at my Corp name, understand your place in EvE.
Proving once again, that, I AM BETTER THAN YOU. |
Keigari
|
Posted - 2009.05.24 04:33:00 -
[103]
ok lets just think prices will come down for a t3 cruiser to 300-400 mil (with subsystems) lets believe that utopia thinking.
How would that come?
a) Reduce materials, there is exactly 1 HUGE BOTTLENECK in materials and that is that Neuro thing which costs 9 mil and is rising week by week. This is making up at least 50% of all the prices.
b) Increase drop rates
I am into t3 production for a short while, but i have observed that there are exactly 2 bottlenecks
1st is the neuro something salvage that is 9 mil and rising you need a lot of them, they are hugely expensive and they seem rare... hence i calculated prices 2 weeks ago and i was like 250 mil on material costs for a t3 hull, now it is 400 mil... talkinga bout pricing there it rises alot.
then there is datacores, they make up a huge amount of the prices of t3 items.
for the hull the hull sections are expensive
for the subsystems the freaking invention costs are lurdicrous.
For example: Offensive Subsystem. I can assemble that one for approx 90 mil (Material costs) and then there comes the datacores....
1 datacore is 20 mil i need 3 of them. I have roughly a 50% success chance on inventing
Then i need decryptor 5 mil approx and some small other stuff thats together 2 mil and a malfunctioning weapon relic that is another 20 mil
so i have like 100 mil in invention cost at a 50% chance for a 3 run copy.
That is 67 mil approx cost for the reversing part.
So it costs me around 150-160 mil to produce 1 weapon subsystem, far away from the fantasy of having a 300-400 mil total cruiser)
However, you will most likley NOT get the subsystem you desire when reversing, so you have a 1/4 chance on a successfull run to get the one you need.
Legion 500 mil (yeah i got one for that price on contracts) in jita its more like 600 mil
Weapopn Subsystem: 130 mil
Defensive Subsystem: 100 mil
Electronics Subsystem 110 mil
Proplusion Subsystem: 90 mil
Engineering Subsystem: 120 mil
so the cheapes i can manufacture a cruiser is: 1 bil roughly
however this does NOT take into account that i have to actually produce 3 of those in order to get that price, because i only get 3 run copies
and i never get all the right desirable ones on the first attempt.
Easy way to drop prices:
Reduce the datacore needs for the subsystem reverse engineering to 1-2 datacores / attempt. (less ouch on total failures.. i had 6 failures in a row, good bye 500 mil...)
So why do you get t3 then from market for 2 bil?
because of those lurdicrous failures in reverse engineering and also getting "trash" t3 bpc's
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Franga
NQX Innovations
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Posted - 2009.05.24 09:20:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Akita T
I'll just call it "CCP sucks at their own game's economics in spite of having hired an economist" and leave it at that.
We've been having this discussion since when exactly, at least one week before T3 went live on TQ ?
Yeah.
I find myself agreeing with this arogant, opinionated jerk.
Also, much luv for Akita T.
_____________________________
Please resize sig to a file size no greater than 24000 bytes - Mitnal |
Nova Satar
Annihilate.
|
Posted - 2009.05.24 09:47:00 -
[105]
everybody who understands this game and has been playing more than 2-3 years should have known it would be like this.
Which is why when they announced it, everybody with a brainw as jsut like "meh"
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FireWarrior
|
Posted - 2009.05.24 09:49:00 -
[106]
Hell no!
We are living in a class4 WH and farming sleepers for subsystem parts. We selling the salvage or making some basic part.
We can make about 2.5B per DAY if we getting good neighboring WH spawns, not including mining which is making another 1B profit.
Our wares selling out very fast in Jita. (About half hour and everything is gone).
So the prices are good or a little bit cheap now. We would like to get the higher as was it earlier.
So if you dont have enough money, get your ass out of agent station and do some WH, it is risky but if you know what and how to do you will survive.
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations
Intrepid Crossing
|
Posted - 2009.05.24 10:12:00 -
[107]
Originally by: FireWarrior
We are living in a class4 WH
How many are "we"?
———
“If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡…
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.”
— Karath Piki |
FireWarrior
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Posted - 2009.05.24 11:09:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: FireWarrior
We are living in a class4 WH
How many are "we"?
About 10 people. If we have good cl3 or cl2 neighbours then we strip those WH-s from sleepers in solo or duo. The rest of guys are mining roids or gas clouds. All the guys are needed for cl4 spawns. But it is rare because the spawn rate in the settled WH-s is very low. So we doing raids in the neighbours.
The CL4 have neighbours CL4 or CL3 sometimes CL2 or CL1 or higher ones like CL5 or 6.
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations
Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2009.05.24 11:12:00 -
[109]
Originally by: FireWarrior
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: FireWarrior
We are living in a class4 WH
How many are "we"?
About 10 people.
So you make 250mil a day each. How long does this take?
———
“If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡…
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.”
— Karath Piki |
FireWarrior
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Posted - 2009.05.24 12:33:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: FireWarrior
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: FireWarrior
We are living in a class4 WH
How many are "we"?
About 10 people.
So you make 250mil a day each. How long does this take?
For me as a drake pilot soloing an average cl2 system (belts, anomalies) is take a 2 hour fight.
An average cl3 cl4 belt clearing job (20 belts) is the same time.
Others can strip mine all the day if the want.
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FireWarrior
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Posted - 2009.05.24 12:43:00 -
[111]
An yesterday we have a cl2 neighbour with a highsec gate 6 jumps from Jita. In that system we cleared about 17 anomalies, 2 magneto and 2 radar sites.
I soloed the whole system my mate scanned the system out.
For scanning you can calc about 2 hours for the clearing about 2 hours and the salvaging takes another hour.
So for 5 hours job if you do it alone you can make over a 1B worth of salvage.
And that system was accessible for everyone
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Jotobar
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Posted - 2009.05.24 13:50:00 -
[112]
The prices are high because people are not spending as much time in wormholes as expected, no fix that doesen't address the former "problem" in conjunction will ever get implemented.
Adding bounties for half of the of the current jita price of the average sleeper drop would be my proposition. This way you get more people in wormholes, wormhole explorers would still have to deal with tough logistic or just ignore a big part of their earnings, prices would drop once operations where set up and hopefully converge close to an point where the salvage and bounties where equally important.
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations
Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2009.05.24 13:58:00 -
[113]
Edited by: Tippia on 24/05/2009 13:58:29
Originally by: FireWarrior
An average cl3 cl4 belt clearing job (20 belts) is the same time.
So 20 manhours for 1bil, excluding logistics, assuming no ship loss, free ammo, and no or other unforseen expenses.
How AFK:able are these jobs?
———
“If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡…
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.”
— Karath Piki |
FireWarrior
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Posted - 2009.05.24 17:07:00 -
[114]
Edited by: FireWarrior on 24/05/2009 17:08:17
Originally by: Tippia
Edited by: Tippia on 24/05/2009 13:58:29
Originally by: FireWarrior
An average cl3 cl4 belt clearing job (20 belts) is the same time.
So 20 manhours for 1bil, excluding logistics, assuming no ship loss, free ammo, and no or other unforseen expenses.
How AFK:able are these jobs?
Wrong those figures are net profits. The POS fuel is hauled in the WH once for month, the amnos are produced locally, if we lost a ship we build an another one. The 1B figure is net it means all those expenses are included allready.
I can semi afk solo cl1 cl2 anomalies, sites, and belts with a passive tank fitted drake.
Cl3 and CL4 belts are soloable but you need pay attention.
CL3 anomalies and sites need 2-3 man group with logistic and ecm support
CL4 anomalies and 6 man group with 2 logistic and 2 ecm.
Just finished a cl1 wh clearing 11 anomalies 2 magneto sites it cost an hour to do this. I was pretty afk meanwhile just paying attention to reload the launchers and designating the next victim.
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Iridescent Moon
Caldari
Iridescent Dawn
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Posted - 2009.05.24 21:24:00 -
[115]
Edited by: Iridescent Moon on 24/05/2009 21:25:00
Originally by: Vily
The main problems are thus...
i Live out of low-sec and generally explore in a 3 jump radius around my HQ meaning i have a general area of about 13 systems, to FULLY explore each and every system within this area will take me in the run of about 2-3 Hours. On average, exploring this amount of systems will net me between 1-5 wormholes. of these, (in low-sec remember) i get a couple class 3's ( unsecured etc. sites i think) and an odd dangerous or class 1/2.
now my point here is this. for me to FIND and then access the resources available takes me on average 3-5 hours TOTAL. I can't just jump into a ship and go, i have to commit to exploring for a night, pre-plan, form a gang and then do so. Even then sometimes the wormhole is decaying or as its stability disrupted to the point where i must cancel my planning or risk being stuck.
the first is the availability of wormholes. Increase wormhole age, (from 24H avg. to 48 or 72) so that people can find them and don't have to use them immediatly. also increase wormhole spawn rates
This.
If your not living in a WH at a POS it is not worth the time to try and do W-space. 1 in 3 WH per k-space system is not correct. I have found it to be at the minimum 1 in 7, and that is being optimistic. Too much time is spent searching and not enough time is spent doing.
Edit: FUBARed scanning issues and the current jump bug does not help ether.
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