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VanNostrum Perkone	Posted - 2009.05.22 23:24:00 - [91] Originally by: Shadowsword High demand? What a joke... Go check the volume of T3 cruisers sold. Something isn't in "high demand" when there's less than 50 transactions a day. The reason prices are high is that the production cost is insane, period. Ask any competent builder for comfirmation. Daily transaction now doesn't mean anything on demand. You obviously don't know what demand means. There is a reason why somethings are far more expensive in the world than others, not because they are much more expensive to make but because everybody would want owning one. Originally by: Shadowsword Sp loss. That will make some think twice about it. Sorry, but for this you deserve to be laughed at. Who would think twice about it? Why would anyone avoid flying a T3 for the fear of losing a rank of level 1 skill which you can train in couple days? Plus you don't have to lose any SP when you lose the ship. If T3 were 10 mil wouldn't we see every single player flying one without giving a jack sht about losing skills. Hell, everyone would be flying one even if they lost ALL T3 skills. For this you deserve to be laughed at again. Originally by:* Shadowsword SP accessibility or not, T3 cruisers will always cost significantly more than a Recon or HAS. The one thing that make command ships relatively rare on the field are NOT their high SP requirements, but their production cost. You think anyone can afford a potential 300M isk loss each time they want to pvp? You're saying if the .5 mil population of eve had skills to fly command ships, their prices wouldn't go up? Do you know anything about economy at all? Many people fly ships in pvp with potentially billions isk worth of loss.
Infinity Ziona Minmatar I AM BETTER THAN YOU	Posted - 2009.05.23 04:01:00 - [92] Originally by: MukkBarovian Edited by: MukkBarovian on 22/05/2009 20:31:11 Confirming that there are two viable ishtar setups: #1 Shield Tanked Nano Ishtar #2 Dominix In enemy territory that Proteus setup will get run down and blobbed. In a 1v1 with an ishtar you will be kited. He might grind you down himself, or more likely about 5 mins later the blob will land on you. Either way his vastly superior speed will mean that he really has to ** up to die. In a fleet battle a non-**ed fc will have someone point you, and then will ignore you as he tries to win the battle. If he does he will kill you a part of the victory celebration. The ultimate form of teabaging the enemy fc who will get to add a multibillion dollar ship to the pyre of his failure. Thats not saying a proteus at a more reasonable price is bad. But the ishtar definitely still has a place. Edit- I forgot the last use. Sitting around docked in your home system with a bunch of buddies and scouts waiting for a **** to stumble in so you can gank him with your pimp ship. I used to have a Machariel for that. But it almost died in a fleet battle and I sold it afterwards. Read first then post. 1. The fit was not a pvp pwn all fit. It was demonstrating how much armor you can get on a proteus and still do hac like damage. 2. An ishtar is SLOWER then a proteus 3. In enemy territory an ishtar (or any ship) will get run down and blobbed 4. In a fleet battle all t3 will be primaried. Why would you take one to a fleet battle unless it was cov ops config? Look above at my last post. The ishtar is far outclassed by the proteus ishtar variant (lots more cap, lots more grid, lots more cpu, more speed, far more ehp, double the targetting range, permarunning mwd without booster and a few additonal things) Ishtar has 25% more drone damage (95dps with ogres), and 150 more drone bay and a mid slot advantage Proving once again, that, I AM BETTER THAN YOU.
Infinity Ziona Minmatar I AM BETTER THAN YOU	Posted - 2009.05.23 04:08:00 - [93] Originally by: london Proteus is down to 1.8b on market. I saw a hull for sale in Hek for 690m. It is going down in price. I have had a proteus hull for sale at 700 mill in Rens for 2 weeks. I grabbed one with subsystems from jita, took it to heimatar and made half a bill selling the subsystems at much higher prices. They went fast but hull is still there. :) Proving once again, that, I AM BETTER THAN YOU.
MukkBarovian	Posted - 2009.05.23 05:27:00 - [94] I went ahead and eft'd the Proteus. You can get 5 midslots on it. Use those for shield tanking and put some nanos in the lows and I'll let you claim youre faster than the standard istar.
Shadowsword Epsilon Lyr Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2009.05.23 06:18:00 - [95] Originally by: VanNostrum Daily transaction now doesn't mean anything on demand. You obviously don't know what demand means. There is a reason why somethings are far more expensive in the world than others, not because they are much more expensive to make but because everybody would want owning one. Everybody want damage control II on their ships. How much do they cost? They don't cost much because they don't cost much to make, and can be made in volume. That's what you fail to understand. Quote: Originally by: Shadowsword SP accessibility or not, T3 cruisers will always cost significantly more than a Recon or HAS. The one thing that make command ships relatively rare on the field are NOT their high SP requirements, but their production cost. You think anyone can afford a potential 300M isk loss each time they want to pvp? You're saying if the .5 mil population of eve had skills to fly command ships, their prices wouldn't go up? Do you know anything about economy at all? Many people fly ships in pvp with potentially billions isk worth of loss. Faction battleships. They're not hard to get into, 80+% of pvpes can, yet how many of them are used in pvp? ------------------------------------------
Vily Special Projects Corporation Exalted.	Posted - 2009.05.23 08:16:00 - [96] The main problems are thus... i Live out of low-sec and generally explore in a 3 jump radius around my HQ meaning i have a general area of about 13 systems, to FULLY explore each and every system within this area will take me in the run of about 2-3 Hours. On average, exploring this amount of systems will net me between 1-5 wormholes. of these, (in low-sec remember) i get a couple class 3's ( unsecured etc. sites i think) and an odd dangerous or class 1/2. now my point here is this. for me to FIND and then access the resources available takes me on average 3-5 hours TOTAL. I can't just jump into a ship and go, i have to commit to exploring for a night, pre-plan, form a gang and then do so. Even then sometimes the wormhole is decaying or as its stability disrupted to the point where i must cancel my planning or risk being stuck. now lets say i find 5 wormholes, with that many odds are 1 or 2 will be posholes, with 1 or no sites left. of the other three im likely to get TWO MAYBE three RADAR sites total. with anywhere from 5-25 combat sites and a mix of gas and gravs. I dont even count magnometrics being that its pointless to run them currently. Now there isn't just one bottleneck to T3 production there is actually FOUR. not 1, not 2, FOUR. the first is the availability of wormholes. Increase wormhole age, (from 24H avg. to 48 or 72) so that people can find them and don't have to use them immediatly. also increase wormhole spawn rates teh second bottleneck is radar sites. a t3 cruiser at BUILD COST(without bpc cost) atm is about 800m or less. the VAST majority of expense comes from the invention process which is greatly hampered by a lack of datacores and radar sites. to solve this INCREASE RADAR site spawn rate by a factor of AT LEAST THREE OR add a single radar can at the end of each combat site the third bottleneck is Magnometric sites. Because of an uncertain invention formula and the general and widely accepted and proved belief that wrecked relic peices are not worth using because of the bottleneck in datacores mentioned in two. meaning that only class 5/6 mag sites are worth doing and thus GREATLY limiting supply. So, Either add a chance to get intact relics in low-level sites. OR quadrouple mag site commonness and still increas the commonness of malfunctioning and intact relic's. either way without a radar fix this is hard to see a solution too. the Fourth bottleneck is the only other part of wormhole production.... GAS. while 320/540 is becoming more readily available im still thinking it may be problematic, however i think limiting this to class5/6's might be ok. to preserve the power of said sites. solve that and you may see prices come close to 300m, MAYBE -
Rajere No Trademark	Posted - 2009.05.23 13:41:00 - [97] Edited by: Rajere on 23/05/2009 13:45:43 Originally by: Infinity Ziona Bunch of useless Idiocy comparing useless attributes Here are the only factors that matter on the two ships, thus the only ones you should compare: Mid Slots, Ishtar Wins Drone Bandwidth, Ishtar Wins Drone Bay, Ishtar Wins Drone Control Range, Ishtar Wins Speed, Ishtar Wins ***Unless you shield tank, The Ishtar is faster than Proteus, nobody gives 2 shts about unmodified, unbonused base speed*** All you're other comparisons are irrelevant. EHP is irrelevant (Not to mention your EHP on the proteus turns you into a brick), if you're taking significant enough damage where EHP comes into play, it means you are tackled (heavily tackled) and you are dead, grats you'll pop 10 seconds after the Ishtar would have, except the Ishtar didn't get caught in the first place. Ignoring the vast discrepancy in ISK cost, The Ishtar'd Proteus is 100% fail compared to the run of the mill T2 Ishtar. Add in cost and you should just kill yourself (in game) for even considering fitting it like that. Time to change your sig to something a little more accurate, newb. You can only get 4 mids on an Ishtar'd Proteus. 5 mids would result in you losing 100mb drone bay and 25mb drone bandwidth, making it even more fail. The opinions expressed in my posts do represent my corp -------------------------- NOTR
Infinity Ziona Minmatar I AM BETTER THAN YOU	Posted - 2009.05.23 17:51:00 - [98] Originally by: Rajere pointless insults designed to obscure baseless statements of fact Proteus outclasses the Ishtar in almost all areas. Midslots - Ishtar with mwd is not cap stable without injector, without sensor booster ishtar with level 5 skills = 67km targeting range. Thats your drone control range = 67km. With cap booster and sensor booster you are temporarily cap stable (almost as good as proteus without injector) and targeting range but you lose your mid slot advantage. Drone Bandwidth - Ishtar gets around 100 dps extra from drones. Drone Bay - Ishtar gets 100 m3 extra. Proteus can hold 2 full flights of 4 heavies + 1 spare heavy. You can have your 100 dps and 100 extra pointless m3 and I'll keep the speed, the ehp, the grid, cpu, cap and all the rest of the useless things your ishtar doesnt need ;) Now if you wanna come back and make some more pointless unsubstantiated unexplained statements of fact please be my guest. Proving once again, that, I AM BETTER THAN YOU.
Future Mutant	Posted - 2009.05.23 18:05:00 - [99] confirming that i personally have stopped the OP from going to wh's to gather materials to make his own strat cruiser.
Rajere No Trademark	Posted - 2009.05.23 22:03:00 - [100] Originally by: "newb" You can have all of the things that make the "Ishtar" concept functional (DPS, Speed, Drone Range, available drones options), and I'll keep the useless things an ishtar doesnt need so I can fofofo in EFT and lose 2bil if I ever decide to undock to pvp in my fail ishtar proteus Fixed for ya. The opinions expressed in my posts do represent my corp -------------------------- NOTR
VanNostrum Perkone	Posted - 2009.05.24 01:46:00 - [101] Originally by: Shadowsword Everybody want damage control II on their ships. How much do they cost? Errr, no, not everybody want damage control II on their ships. First of all not all setups require a damage control II, second of all it's a module not a ship, third it's bp is more acquirable than a T2 or T3 ship. Thats where you fial to understand. Originally by: Shadowsword Faction battleships. They're not hard to get into, 80+% of pvpes can, yet how many of them are used in pvp? Errr, no, not 80% of ppl can fly faction battleships, heck not 80% of player base can even fly battleships. This char of mine is 2.5 years old and can't fly battleships. BSs and their weapon systems require a lot more training than T3 , not to mention you can't really run away in a BS, not to mention someone needs to do lotsa missions for a faction bs unlike slapping a bp in a slot and having it built automaticly
Infinity Ziona Minmatar I AM BETTER THAN YOU	Posted - 2009.05.24 02:00:00 - [102] Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 24/05/2009 02:01:00 Originally by: Rajere Originally by: "newb" You can have all of the things that make the "Ishtar" concept functional (DPS, Speed, Drone Range, available drones options), and I'll keep the useless things an ishtar doesnt need so I can fofofo in EFT and lose 2bil if I ever decide to undock to pvp in my fail ishtar proteus Fixed for ya. The Proteus is not an Ishtar. It can be a better one if it likes though. End Of Story. Editing my posts and calling me a newb, especially when I started in 2003, is more pointless obfuscation eh. Read My Sig, Look at my Corp name, understand your place in EvE. Proving once again, that, I AM BETTER THAN YOU.
Keigari	Posted - 2009.05.24 04:33:00 - [103] ok lets just think prices will come down for a t3 cruiser to 300-400 mil (with subsystems) lets believe that utopia thinking. How would that come? a) Reduce materials, there is exactly 1 HUGE BOTTLENECK in materials and that is that Neuro thing which costs 9 mil and is rising week by week. This is making up at least 50% of all the prices. b) Increase drop rates I am into t3 production for a short while, but i have observed that there are exactly 2 bottlenecks 1st is the neuro something salvage that is 9 mil and rising you need a lot of them, they are hugely expensive and they seem rare... hence i calculated prices 2 weeks ago and i was like 250 mil on material costs for a t3 hull, now it is 400 mil... talkinga bout pricing there it rises alot. then there is datacores, they make up a huge amount of the prices of t3 items. for the hull the hull sections are expensive for the subsystems the freaking invention costs are lurdicrous. For example: Offensive Subsystem. I can assemble that one for approx 90 mil (Material costs) and then there comes the datacores.... 1 datacore is 20 mil i need 3 of them. I have roughly a 50% success chance on inventing Then i need decryptor 5 mil approx and some small other stuff thats together 2 mil and a malfunctioning weapon relic that is another 20 mil so i have like 100 mil in invention cost at a 50% chance for a 3 run copy. That is 67 mil approx cost for the reversing part. So it costs me around 150-160 mil to produce 1 weapon subsystem, far away from the fantasy of having a 300-400 mil total cruiser) However, you will most likley NOT get the subsystem you desire when reversing, so you have a 1/4 chance on a successfull run to get the one you need. Legion 500 mil (yeah i got one for that price on contracts) in jita its more like 600 mil Weapopn Subsystem: 130 mil Defensive Subsystem: 100 mil Electronics Subsystem 110 mil Proplusion Subsystem: 90 mil Engineering Subsystem: 120 mil so the cheapes i can manufacture a cruiser is: 1 bil roughly however this does NOT take into account that i have to actually produce 3 of those in order to get that price, because i only get 3 run copies and i never get all the right desirable ones on the first attempt. Easy way to drop prices: Reduce the datacore needs for the subsystem reverse engineering to 1-2 datacores / attempt. (less ouch on total failures.. i had 6 failures in a row, good bye 500 mil...) So why do you get t3 then from market for 2 bil? because of those lurdicrous failures in reverse engineering and also getting "trash" t3 bpc's
Franga NQX Innovations	Posted - 2009.05.24 09:20:00 - [104] Originally by: Akita T I'll just call it "CCP sucks at their own game's economics in spite of having hired an economist" and leave it at that. We've been having this discussion since when exactly, at least one week before T3 went live on TQ ? Yeah. I find myself agreeing with this arogant, opinionated jerk. Also, much luv for Akita T. _____________________________ Please resize sig to a file size no greater than 24000 bytes - Mitnal
Nova Satar Annihilate.	Posted - 2009.05.24 09:47:00 - [105] everybody who understands this game and has been playing more than 2-3 years should have known it would be like this. Which is why when they announced it, everybody with a brainw as jsut like "meh"
FireWarrior	Posted - 2009.05.24 09:49:00 - [106] Hell no! We are living in a class4 WH and farming sleepers for subsystem parts. We selling the salvage or making some basic part. We can make about 2.5B per DAY if we getting good neighboring WH spawns, not including mining which is making another 1B profit. Our wares selling out very fast in Jita. (About half hour and everything is gone). So the prices are good or a little bit cheap now. We would like to get the higher as was it earlier. So if you dont have enough money, get your ass out of agent station and do some WH, it is risky but if you know what and how to do you will survive.
Tippia Raddick Explorations Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2009.05.24 10:12:00 - [107] Originally by: FireWarrior We are living in a class4 WH How many are "we"? ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
FireWarrior	Posted - 2009.05.24 11:09:00 - [108] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: FireWarrior We are living in a class4 WH How many are "we"? About 10 people. If we have good cl3 or cl2 neighbours then we strip those WH-s from sleepers in solo or duo. The rest of guys are mining roids or gas clouds. All the guys are needed for cl4 spawns. But it is rare because the spawn rate in the settled WH-s is very low. So we doing raids in the neighbours. The CL4 have neighbours CL4 or CL3 sometimes CL2 or CL1 or higher ones like CL5 or 6.
Tippia Raddick Explorations Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2009.05.24 11:12:00 - [109] Originally by: FireWarrior Originally by: Tippia Originally by: FireWarrior We are living in a class4 WH How many are "we"? About 10 people. So you make 250mil a day each. How long does this take? ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
FireWarrior	Posted - 2009.05.24 12:33:00 - [110] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: FireWarrior Originally by: Tippia Originally by: FireWarrior We are living in a class4 WH How many are "we"? About 10 people. So you make 250mil a day each. How long does this take? For me as a drake pilot soloing an average cl2 system (belts, anomalies) is take a 2 hour fight. An average cl3 cl4 belt clearing job (20 belts) is the same time. Others can strip mine all the day if the want.
FireWarrior	Posted - 2009.05.24 12:43:00 - [111] An yesterday we have a cl2 neighbour with a highsec gate 6 jumps from Jita. In that system we cleared about 17 anomalies, 2 magneto and 2 radar sites. I soloed the whole system my mate scanned the system out. For scanning you can calc about 2 hours for the clearing about 2 hours and the salvaging takes another hour. So for 5 hours job if you do it alone you can make over a 1B worth of salvage. And that system was accessible for everyone
Jotobar	Posted - 2009.05.24 13:50:00 - [112] The prices are high because people are not spending as much time in wormholes as expected, no fix that doesen't address the former "problem" in conjunction will ever get implemented. Adding bounties for half of the of the current jita price of the average sleeper drop would be my proposition. This way you get more people in wormholes, wormhole explorers would still have to deal with tough logistic or just ignore a big part of their earnings, prices would drop once operations where set up and hopefully converge close to an point where the salvage and bounties where equally important.
Tippia Raddick Explorations Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2009.05.24 13:58:00 - [113] Edited by: Tippia on 24/05/2009 13:58:29 Originally by: FireWarrior An average cl3 cl4 belt clearing job (20 belts) is the same time. So 20 manhours for 1bil, excluding logistics, assuming no ship loss, free ammo, and no or other unforseen expenses. How AFK:able are these jobs? ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
FireWarrior	Posted - 2009.05.24 17:07:00 - [114] Edited by: FireWarrior on 24/05/2009 17:08:17 Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 24/05/2009 13:58:29 Originally by: FireWarrior An average cl3 cl4 belt clearing job (20 belts) is the same time. So 20 manhours for 1bil, excluding logistics, assuming no ship loss, free ammo, and no or other unforseen expenses. How AFK:able are these jobs? Wrong those figures are net profits. The POS fuel is hauled in the WH once for month, the amnos are produced locally, if we lost a ship we build an another one. The 1B figure is net it means all those expenses are included allready. I can semi afk solo cl1 cl2 anomalies, sites, and belts with a passive tank fitted drake. Cl3 and CL4 belts are soloable but you need pay attention. CL3 anomalies and sites need 2-3 man group with logistic and ecm support CL4 anomalies and 6 man group with 2 logistic and 2 ecm. Just finished a cl1 wh clearing 11 anomalies 2 magneto sites it cost an hour to do this. I was pretty afk meanwhile just paying attention to reload the launchers and designating the next victim.
Iridescent Moon Caldari Iridescent Dawn	Posted - 2009.05.24 21:24:00 - [115] Edited by: Iridescent Moon on 24/05/2009 21:25:00 Originally by: Vily The main problems are thus... i Live out of low-sec and generally explore in a 3 jump radius around my HQ meaning i have a general area of about 13 systems, to FULLY explore each and every system within this area will take me in the run of about 2-3 Hours. On average, exploring this amount of systems will net me between 1-5 wormholes. of these, (in low-sec remember) i get a couple class 3's ( unsecured etc. sites i think) and an odd dangerous or class 1/2. now my point here is this. for me to FIND and then access the resources available takes me on average 3-5 hours TOTAL. I can't just jump into a ship and go, i have to commit to exploring for a night, pre-plan, form a gang and then do so. Even then sometimes the wormhole is decaying or as its stability disrupted to the point where i must cancel my planning or risk being stuck. the first is the availability of wormholes. Increase wormhole age, (from 24H avg. to 48 or 72) so that people can find them and don't have to use them immediatly. also increase wormhole spawn rates This. If your not living in a WH at a POS it is not worth the time to try and do W-space. 1 in 3 WH per k-space system is not correct. I have found it to be at the minimum 1 in 7, and that is being optimistic. Too much time is spent searching and not enough time is spent doing. Edit: FUBARed scanning issues and the current jump bug does not help ether.

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