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Rip Minner	Posted - 2009.06.11 00:58:00 - [31] Edited by: Rip Minner on 11/06/2009 01:01:42 Originally by: Zo5o Quote: And a Nightmare is a tech 1 Pally were dps is conserned You're not giving Nightmare enough credit. That tracking bonus adds considerable true DPS. Whether the Paladin makes up for it in terms of isk/hr through its ability to loot/salvage while killing stuff is a question of how much you value your loot/salvage, which will be dependent upon the isk/lp ratio you're getting through resale. The more isk/lp you're making, the less valuable loot/salvage becomes, and the more valuable DPS becomes. But yeah, Nightmare > Paladin for true DPS, period. And yet I find myself saying that tracking bounses only help as you can fit tracking pc's to the pally so ya same dps true depends on how you set ether or up. Edit: as a side note otheer then tracter bounses the palys bounses to webs lets you web the frigs and making drones a thing of the past.
Zo5o Broski Enterprises Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.06.11 01:01:00 - [32] Edited by: Zo5o on 11/06/2009 01:01:00 You can fit tracking modules on a Nightmare too ;)
Rip Minner	Posted - 2009.06.11 01:09:00 - [33] Originally by: Zo5o Edited by: Zo5o on 11/06/2009 01:01:00 You can fit tracking modules on a Nightmare too ;) they pallys is every bit the dps machin as the Nightmare. But I do like shield tanking missions making the Nightmare my first pick of ships between the two also.
GGjita	Posted - 2009.06.11 01:18:00 - [34] Originally by: Zo5o Edited by: Zo5o on 11/06/2009 00:24:53 Quote: yeah, and i guess i forgot to mention they halved the number of ships you now have to kill. Oh wow, yeah I just checked that on eve survival. Nice. CCP boosted something? My head asplode. I haven't run a mission in a couple months... the important question regarding the mission's worth now is: now that the mission doesn't take as long to complete, is the LP value still maxed out for Buzz Kill? I still get max LP for this mission. I don't see the avg. time on this mission going down enough to lower the LP. There are still like 15 or so elite cruisers and a good number of elite frigs to kill so unless you really are rocking a nice gank ship it will take most of the casual missioners a goodly amount of time to finish this one. God forbid one of those folks that fly L4's in their drakes try to kill 15 elite cruisers that would just be painful to watch.
Traderboz	Posted - 2009.06.11 01:50:00 - [35] Originally by: Rip Minner Originally by: Zo5o Edited by: Zo5o on 11/06/2009 01:01:00 You can fit tracking modules on a Nightmare too ;) they pallys is every bit the dps machin as the Nightmare. But I do like shield tanking missions making the Nightmare my first pick of ships between the two also. Except it's not. Pally has to fit its tank and its gank mods in the same slots (low), whereas the Nightmare has 5 delicious lows with nothing but gank to put in them. Likewise, it's easier to pimp a shield tank and free up some mids (Hi Mr. Crystal set), so you always have the option of a TC or the like. Pally simply is not the same DPS as Nightmare. It's close, but in practice it's not the same. To make up for it, you get the wonderful tractor bonus. Both are awesome ships, but understand there are differences.
Yakia TovilToba Halliburton Inc.	Posted - 2009.06.11 02:17:00 - [36] Edited by: Yakia TovilToba on 11/06/2009 02:18:51 Originally by: Zo5o Edited by: Zo5o on 11/06/2009 00:56:52 Originally by: Yakia TovilToba Drivel from the biggest caldari fanboy on the forums who no long-time reader of said forums would ever take seriously. Range isn't an issue son. My sentry/rail domi will put out extremely similar true DPS to your CNR at its maximum range, and its DPS only goes up as the rats get closer. Cap and tank aren't an issue if you fly your ship properly and kill stuff fast enough. I'll run rings around your CNR in my sentrinix re: mission completion time. But then again anyone who has ever read your posts already knows that. You should probably stay out of it when the adults are talking. Lol you lose on factual arguments and start some insubstantial personal attacks for a diversion. Fact is that you lose a good portion of your guns true dps due to not always dealing the right damage-type and because BS-sized guns have tracking issues on smaller stuff if it gets close enough. This also counts for sentry drones. You do less damage without noticing it. I did lots of tests with a 350mm railgun Rokh a while ago and even with a tracking comp there were serious tracking issues once a cruisers got closer than 30km. Other ships have a bonus but will still be far from doing full damage if the rats are small/fast/close enough. There are different missions with lots of situations where you won't kill them all before they approached and where your dps will disappear down the toilet. And there are plenty of missions where range WILL be an issue for turrets but never for cruise missiles. The CNR shines because it can handle every situation quite well and not at a specific situation, like against BS-rats with the right resistance types. That's why it will lose in specific examples, but it wins if taken all missions and situations together. But your bias and little knowledge of eve hinders you from noticing that. However, I'm not going to fight you on this issue and deliver further facts that prove you wrong, since as a fan of cruise missiles it's against my interest to do so. Actually i appreciate that you make the cruise missile raven look bad. It's easier to ask for a missile improvement if there's a general consent that this weapon is underpowered even for missions, and therefore desperately needs a boost.
Liang Nuren The Hull Miners Union Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2009.06.11 02:21:00 - [37] Originally by: Yakia TovilToba But your bias and little knowledge of eve hinders you from noticing that. I wouldn't say that tbh. I may not agree with him (I think it'll be a damn close race between a properly fit Sentry Domi and a properly fit CNR... and my money is personally on the CNR), but I wouldn't say he has "little knowledge of eve". -Liang
Aniel Zaar Gallente Light of Orion	Posted - 2009.06.11 03:32:00 - [38] Edited by: Aniel Zaar on 11/06/2009 03:32:41 Originally by: Yakia TovilToba Edited by: Yakia TovilToba on 11/06/2009 02:18:51 Fact is that you lose a good portion of your guns true dps due to not always dealing the right damage-type and because BS-sized guns have tracking issues on smaller stuff if it gets close enough. This also counts for sentry drones. You do less damage without noticing it. I did lots of tests with a 350mm railgun Rokh a while ago and even with a tracking comp there were serious tracking issues once a cruisers got closer than 30km. Other ships have a bonus but will still be far from doing full damage if the rats are small/fast/close enough. The previous poster mentions that getting maximum efficiency with a sentry domi requires using your head. If you have something closer then ~20km, then you are doing something wrong. 30 km is dead center of Garde II optimal, I would like to see how long a cruiser lives in that range. 2-3 volleys from drones alone will pop it. -^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^ By the way, I am an Ishtar and T2 sentries fan. Fight to make the sentry damage rig work for all drones.
Zo5o Broski Enterprises Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.06.11 03:36:00 - [39] Quote: The previous poster mentions that getting maximum efficiency with a sentry domi requires using your head. If you have something closer then ~20km, then you are doing something wrong. 30 km is dead center of Garde II optimal, I would like to see how long a cruiser lives in that range. 2-3 volleys from drones alone will pop it. As I continually preach, in any ship where tracking is an issue, for missions, proper target prioritization makes all the difference in the world re: efficiency. Primary should be the ship closest to entering an orbit which makes it difficult to track. Put out enough DPS and prioritize your targets correctly and you should very rarely if ever let cruisers get under your tracking.
Tavers	Posted - 2009.06.11 03:48:00 - [40] Great responses here! Here is what I have seen : A lot of EFT DPS quotes, here is my experience with eft. Your DPS can be high, but if you can't track the mobs you want to kill, you to 0 dps. This is why I am on the forums asking for personal experiences instead of grinding out this information in EFT. CNR : Missiles eat no cap, allows for good tank/mods All damage types Missiles tend to be more expensive.. I am currently skilled for this ship, just need missiles. Everyone has one? Ugly as sin. Nightmare : Uses no ammo Eats a lot of cap? Somewhat Balanced by only needing to use half as many lasers. Extremely costly Higher "real" DPS? Tracking bonuses!!!11One~!!++++++ Highly effective with EM/heat damage, diminished against other types. I would need a lot of skills to properly fit this ship. Sexy looks. Dominix : Rail ship with no tracking bonuses(I've had an extremely negative experience with the Rokh, I realize these ships have their differences, but I have had an extremely negative experience with Large rails.) Cheap I feel as though I need to fit a MWD to be effective with a rail boat, and rails eat a lot of cap. My cap in my Rokh is already diminished by shield flux coils. Another 25% reduction may force me to use a cap booster just to fire the damn guns. This ship is a good option, I just really dislike the idea of rails. For me only, it looks like my best choice may just be the CNR, something I'm not extremely excited about. The raven is probably the ship I see most in eve, and seems to have a negative feel with it. With my Rokh, I had shock and awe, and a good fit, but performance is not where I would like to see it be for a ship that cost me probably 300m with fittings. The CNR/Nightmare will both be more expensive, but I'm pretty sure the Nightmare is about 3 times as expensive, something I'm not prepared to deal with right now sadly. Honestly I was hoping that everyone here would say DON"T USE THE RAVEN, but it seems like you can't deny its relative usefulness. Thank you all for your responses!
SuiJuris	Posted - 2009.06.11 03:51:00 - [41] Im not convinced a 800 DPS CNR competes with a 1100+ dps nightmare, I mean on the missions where things start close, with 1 tracking comp Large Pulses track better then Medium rails (and thats on a ship that doesn't have a tracking bonus)... and on the Mission where they start far away NOTHING reaches orbit if you do it right. cap booster in the mids cause lets face it you do not need anything approaching a permatank and then Range rigs in the lows cause you have loads of Extra grid so why not. Liang has played a lot longer then I have, so im sure she can show us the numbers why the CNR / Domi are better.
FT Diomedes Gallente Factio Paucorum	Posted - 2009.06.11 03:51:00 - [42] The Dominix is hands down the best T1 mission runner.
Tavers	Posted - 2009.06.11 03:57:00 - [43] Originally by: FT Diomedes The Dominix is hands down the best T1 mission runner. I'm not saying I don't believe you, but unsupported advice is.... unsupported.
FT Diomedes Gallente Factio Paucorum	Posted - 2009.06.11 04:00:00 - [44] Originally by: Tavers Originally by: FT Diomedes The Dominix is hands down the best T1 mission runner. I'm not saying I don't believe you, but unsupported advice is.... unsupported. T2 Sentry drones are amazing. Look at my standings. 90% of that was done in a T2 Sentry Domi. That's all the support this amazing ship needs.
Zo5o Broski Enterprises Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.06.11 04:08:00 - [45] Quote: A lot of EFT DPS quotes, here is my experience with eft. Your DPS can be high, but if you can't track the mobs you want to kill, you to 0 dps. For the bajillionth time, if you prioritize targets properly and throw out enough DPS, tracking is simply not an issue. You had negative experiences with the Rokh because the Rokh is a sub-par mission ship. Also, you clearly have little experience using railguns in missions, so you've never seen first-hand that, again, tracking isn't an issue with proper target prioritization. If you don't want to have to micromanage just get the CNR lol.
Liang Nuren The Hull Miners Union Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2009.06.11 04:11:00 - [46] Originally by: SuiJuris Im not convinced a 800 DPS CNR competes with a 1100+ dps nightmare It doesn't, and I wouldn't claim that it does. Well, it might do it vs Angels or something. My claim is regarding the sentry domi and CNR. I'd be somewhat surprised if the sentry domi outperforms the CNR. Quote: Liang has played a lot longer then I have, so im sure she can show us the numbers why the CNR / Domi are better. Hmmm... I don't have personal experience in the Nightmare, but the numbers look really really nice for it. -Liang
Tavers	Posted - 2009.06.11 04:13:00 - [47] I don't want to easy mode missions, I want exactly the opposite. Easy mode is just that, easy mode. I want to have fun, fly a cool and effective mission ship. There are missions where you have no option but to land right in the middle of the enemies, I can't warp to 100km. So there is no picking off frigs when they start 15-30 km. How would you adjust to this situation on your Dominix?
FT Diomedes Gallente Factio Paucorum	Posted - 2009.06.11 04:14:00 - [48] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: SuiJuris Im not convinced a 800 DPS CNR competes with a 1100+ dps nightmare It doesn't, and I wouldn't claim that it does. Well, it might do it vs Angels or something. My claim is regarding the sentry domi and CNR. I'd be somewhat surprised if the sentry domi outperforms the CNR. Quote: Liang has played a lot longer then I have, so im sure she can show us the numbers why the CNR / Domi are better. Hmmm... I don't have personal experience in the Nightmare, but the numbers look really really nice for it. -Liang I dual boxed a T2 sentry Domi and a CNR for most of the past year - the Domi wipes the floor with the CNR.
Liang Nuren The Hull Miners Union Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2009.06.11 04:16:00 - [49] Originally by: Tavers I don't want to easy mode missions, I want exactly the opposite. Easy mode is just that, easy mode. I want to have fun, fly a cool and effective mission ship. There are missions where you have no option but to land right in the middle of the enemies, I can't warp to 100km. So there is no picking off frigs when they start 15-30 km. How would you adjust to this situation on your Dominix? I have not found this to be an issue with a sentry domi. At worst, you pop lights and go to town with your rails. That said, it hasn't happened in a long time. -Liang
iudex Caldari State Protectorate	Posted - 2009.06.11 04:41:00 - [50] Originally by: Zo5o Range isn't an issue son. My sentry/rail domi will put out extremely similar true DPS to your CNR at its maximum range, and its DPS only goes up as the rats get closer. Do you mind to share your fitting, when you deal the same damage as the CNR at it's maximum range ? I seriously doubt that you can compete at 90km. While i write this text I'm doing the mission "Desperate Manoeuvres" (2+2mil rewards, 10400 lp), well actually my raven does it, while I'm reading the forums and reactivate the launchers every ~4 minutes. The first wave are 4 Blood Raider BS that spawn at 80km and are dead before they got to ~60km. The 2nd wave are 5 Serpentis BS that spawn at another spot 70km away, last wave are 4 Gurista BS that spawn 80km away (if i didn't move towards the other spawns, otherwise that would be even more km). Can you show me a ship and setup that could do the mission faster than a cruise missile raven-type ship, taking the ranges and different damage types into account ? I guess no. My skills Faction Standings: Serpentis +8.02 / Angel Cartel +8.57 / Gallente Federation -9.97
GGjita	Posted - 2009.06.11 04:56:00 - [51] Ok I'm home now and I said I would post my mission times so here they are. But first you need to know what my skills and fittings are and what implants i'm using. I have caldari BS to 5 and all the relevant cruise skills are sadly sitting at just 4. I have the 5% explosion velocity and explosion radius implants, and the 3% Rof and cruise damage implants. This is my setup: [Raven Navy Issue, New Setup 2] Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Power Diagnostic System II Pithum A-Type Medium Shield Booster Caldari Navy Shield Boost Amplifier Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron Cap Recharger II Caldari Navy Cruise Missile Launcher, Paradise Cruise Missile Caldari Navy Cruise Missile Launcher, Paradise Cruise Missile Caldari Navy Cruise Missile Launcher, Paradise Cruise Missile Caldari Navy Cruise Missile Launcher, Paradise Cruise Missile Caldari Navy Cruise Missile Launcher, Paradise Cruise Missile Caldari Navy Cruise Missile Launcher, Paradise Cruise Missile Caldari Navy Cruise Missile Launcher, Paradise Cruise Missile Drone Link Augmentor I Warhead Rigor Catalyst I Warhead Rigor Catalyst I Warhead Rigor Catalyst I Hammerhead II x5 All my Times are done with T1 missiles. I have run each of these missions a minimum of 3 times and averaged the times. Times are done from warp in to warp out, and i included travel time for picking up mission items. Some missions my not be listed because on those i just blitzed them so it won't be a fair comparison. TimeMissionNotes 14m 46sThe ScoreSerpentis 2m 49sSlave traders 1/2Sansha 5m 30s2/2Sansha 12m 24sPirate InvasionAngel 19m 56sMordus Headhunters 1m 41sWar Situation 1/2Amarr 6m 18s2/2Amarr 13m 14sSilence the Informant 22m 52sBlockadeAngel 8m 31sFordu's Folly 1/2 32m 53sThe AssaultSerpentis 4m 54sZazz 9m 20sIntercept the Sabatuers 25m 30sVengenceAngel 9m 26sRecon 1/3Angel 11m 52sDamsel in Distress 16m 37sMassive AttackSerpentis 11m 35sGone Berserk 5m 23sStop the Thief 7m 43sRogue Drone Harrassment 3m 23sAngel Cartel SpiesAngel 11m 37sUnautherized MilitaryAngel 13m 36sSmuggler Interception 42m 16sAngel ExtravaganzaAngel with the bonus room 14m 32s Buzz Kill
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2009.06.11 05:01:00 - [52] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: FT Diomedes I dual boxed a T2 sentry Domi and a CNR for most of the past year - the Domi wipes the floor with the CNR. What is your CNR fit? -Liang arbalest cruise xl shield booster, boost amp, 4 hardeners 5 cap flux coils 3 cccs is there any other cnr fit need to drop my alt into a cnr (now that I have one again) and test it a bit against the nightmare, would do it against the paladin, but I'm at war, really cba to get the 5% implants and train marauders 4 while it seems we will be doing wars for a while to come, and well the nightmare has better skills/implants, and the pilot isn't at war.
Zo5o Broski Enterprises Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.06.11 05:10:00 - [53] Originally by: Tavers I don't want to easy mode missions, I want exactly the opposite. Easy mode is just that, easy mode. I want to have fun, fly a cool and effective mission ship. There are missions where you have no option but to land right in the middle of the enemies, I can't warp to 100km. So there is no picking off frigs when they start 15-30 km. How would you adjust to this situation on your Dominix? As Liang said this is a very rare situation. It's not a problem though, as garde ii's can track cruisers and larger just fine at any orbit range. Quote: Do you mind to share your fitting, when you deal the same damage as the CNR at it's maximum range ? I seriously doubt that you can compete at 90km. While i write this text I'm doing the mission "Desperate Manoeuvres" (2+2mil rewards, 10400 lp), well actually my raven does it, while I'm reading the forums and reactivate the launchers every ~4 minutes. The first wave are 4 Blood Raider BS that spawn at 80km and are dead before they got to ~60km. The 2nd wave are 5 Serpentis BS that spawn at another spot 70km away, last wave are 4 Gurista BS that spawn 80km away (if i didn't move towards the other spawns, otherwise that would be even more km). Can you show me a ship and setup that could do the mission faster than a cruise missile raven-type ship, taking the ranges and different damage types into account ? I guess no. As I posted earlier in the thread: Quote: I'm doing about 700 DPS at my maximum range, so the CNR is doing 100 more DPS there, but that's half the gap compared to the 200 DPS difference up close, and there's WAY more rats across the board who appear within my gardes' optimal than there are at 70-80 km. Missions like you described are the exception, not the norm. Yes, your CNR is going to win on that one. The vast majority of rats in the vast majority of missions, however, can be engaged under 40km without delays if you aggro rats in the correct order. Quote: 12m 24s Pirate Invasion Angel 19m 56s Mordus Headhunters 32m 53s The Assault Serpentis 4m 54s Zazz 11m 52s Damsel in Distress 11m 35s Gone Berserk 5m 23s Stop the Thief 42m 16s Angel Extravaganza Angel with the bonus room Like I said I don't save my times in text by the second, and I only pay attention to my times in some of the missions, but I can definitely say from memory I've beaten all of these in the domi. I'll admit most of your times sound very similar to mine going by memory, although it's been a couple months since I've run missions.
Zo5o Broski Enterprises Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.06.11 05:13:00 - [54] Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: FT Diomedes I dual boxed a T2 sentry Domi and a CNR for most of the past year - the Domi wipes the floor with the CNR. What is your CNR fit? -Liang arbalest cruise xl shield booster, boost amp, 4 hardeners 5 cap flux coils 3 cccs is there any other cnr fit Hahaha. Oh wow. Please, don't ever bring a fit without damage mods into a conversation about mission efficiency again. Never again.
GGjita	Posted - 2009.06.11 05:23:00 - [55] Originally by: Zo5o I'll admit most of your times sound very similar to mine going by memory, although it's been a couple months since I've run missions. The thing that really stands out for me for the CNR, and this is why i first went for the ship, you only need maybe 5mil sp total in combat and support skills to see these numbers (well and a wad of isk for the fittings). I would imagine that the domi prolly needs a lot more sp since guns are a lot more skill intensive as are the T2 heavies. Yeah the domi may beat the CNR, but it can not be as easily discounted as most people tend to do. And to be honest i've yet to actually see a ganked out domi in action, everyone i know that flies them pretty much just afks through missions.
Tavers	Posted - 2009.06.11 06:13:00 - [56] Its not my intention to derail this thread, but how is 50m an hour even remotely possible? 100m/hr seems absurd.
GGjita	Posted - 2009.06.11 06:28:00 - [57] Originally by: Tavers Its not my intention to derail this thread, but how is 50m an hour even remotely possible? 100m/hr seems absurd. Your prolly not ever going to avg. 100m/hour, but in my current CNR in a 0.7 system I avg. 47mil/hour. This is with me getting 1900isk/LP. If you just blitz through missions it really isn't that hard. My golem pushes that number up to around 55-60mil/hour since it can cherry pick the wrecks and salvage as it missions without hurting mission times. In high sec I imagine that 60mil/hour is going to be about as high as you can get (this is including the bad streaks of missions that you are bound to get but most mission runners tend to ignore in their counts). In 0.0 doing L4's if you are in very secure space i would imagine up to 75-80mil/hour possible with increased LP gain you get from there, but it would be a lot more dangerous and i would have to assume your not gonna hit that number for the simple fact that you prolly won't fly the 4bil mission ship there. If you don't think 50mil/hour is possible take my mission times i posted, and then add up the bounties/mission rewards/and LP for each and you should see the number come out to around 50mil/hour.
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2009.06.11 09:03:00 - [58] Originally by: Tavers If you had to choose a T1 battleship class ship to run L4s what would it be? I have heard a lot of people say CNR, does anyone else have an opinion? T1 eh? - CNR or Nighgtmare - preferably both. Should you be willing to consider also T2 then you could go Golem instead of CNR (altho if thats more effective or not depends on your missionrunning tackiks you prefer). Would not worry about Paladin tho - it's a bit different than Nightmare and in my opinion Caldary BE 5 is more useful to have than Marauders level 5 (what you would need for it to be competitive with Nightmare). Paladin is slightly easier to move into if one is coming from Amarr side of things as it's armor tanking like rest of the amarr ones. As far as Dominix goes have no experience with the ship, altho I find it hard to believe it can beat either CNR or Nightmare in average missionrunning speed. I'm sure it can beat them in some missions - then again any battleship can beat others in some missions (ok perhaps not Scorpion). One does not need to note down mission times by hand to measure his missionrunning speed. There is this thing called EVE combat log. Just note down the name of mission you did and you can extract the combat times afterwards from combat logs.
Qui Shon	Posted - 2009.06.11 09:31:00 - [59] Originally by: GGjita If you don't think 50mil/hour is possible take my mission times i posted, and then add up the bounties/mission rewards/and LP for each and you should see the number come out to around 50mil/hour. So your mission times are from first doubleclicking the agent, to pressing complete mission, and no additional salvaging or sorting of loot after that? Even if that is so, you're going to lose time converting isk to lp. Calculating isk/h from mission completion times will always produce false results.
GGjita	Posted - 2009.06.11 09:36:00 - [60] Originally by: Qui Shon Originally by: GGjita If you don't think 50mil/hour is possible take my mission times i posted, and then add up the bounties/mission rewards/and LP for each and you should see the number come out to around 50mil/hour. So your mission times are from first doubleclicking the agent, to pressing complete mission, and no additional salvaging or sorting of loot after that? Even if that is so, you're going to lose time converting isk to lp. Calculating isk/h from mission completion times will always produce false results. You are right here, but if you add 3-4 minutes to each mission time that should be enough to cover travel times and such. I record my isk/hour when i do it in terms of when i start missions to when i stop them, so if i sit down and play for 4 hours then i count that as 4 horus as far as isk/hour goes.

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