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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.06.18 19:11:00 -
[181]
 Originally by: Descrambled
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Even more interesting you are sending a packet with the position of all ship in system to the program every X seconds, letting the EVE program on your PC doing all the calculations.
What huge security hole would this be the onboard scanner isn't that huge of a range.
Anyway, to keep things simple we can just go with delayed local. The idea of 0.0 is to protect your space anyway.
I'd be content with delayed local mode. Works fine for wormholes. Let's move it over to 0.0 to fix PvP.
PvP is supposed to be non-consentual- not "consentual" pvp like we most often have now
My dear, from your description of the mechanic you are proposing the end user get the information on all ship in system and then the EVE program display to him only the locations of those he can see.
So someone hacking that informations would get the coordinates of all the ships in system.
If the system was doing the calculation server side like I think it should do if something similar was implemented the problem is lag.
You can chose your poison but not avoid it.
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Hrodgar Ortal
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Posted - 2009.06.18 19:25:00 -
[182]
I'll support this the day my hulk can defend itself against the 5-10 gang that wishes no more than to kill it (since killing mining ships is very brave??).
Local is the only defense a miner has. Removing it means removing mining as a profession in anything but high sec.
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Christopher Multsanti
Euphoria Released
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Posted - 2009.06.18 19:28:00 -
[183]
Originally by: wtbrandomnamegenerator
Wow, what awesome blatant lies you tell my friend!
This is the crux of the problem, people like you stretching the truth to such an extent that you muddle the entire discussion.
Lets take this example you've set out here shall we?
A pilgrim cannot do 350dps unless you pack 3 heavy pulse lasers in addition to your drones, which won't allow you to fit a 1600 plate. Drones ALONE at ALL 5 SKILLS is actually UNDER 200 dps. That is a FACT, not your wild number flinging.
Next, to your high slot configuration that your bantering on about. A pilgrim has FOUR highslots. With Recon 5, you've got some fitting space, but the Expanded Probe Launcher, and Cover Cyno take up a total of 270 of your total 437 CPU, AND only leaves you one high slot for your main offensive weapon, which is a neut, but the CPU loss alone is enough to cripple the rest of the ships fit.
You see, I too, am a pilgrim fan, have been flying it solo for quite some time, and have spent VAST sums of money fitting one out. The lies you told in this one section alone mean that every thing else you said was simply rubbish in my mind, and that you, and your posts are no longer worth reading, as you are pursuing a personal agenda, and will lie to see it through to its end.
You sir, are my hero.
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Khorin D'tael
Caldari
D'tael Contracts
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Posted - 2009.06.18 19:29:00 -
[184]
Originally by: Hrodgar Ortal
I'll support this the day my hulk can defend itself against the 5-10 gang that wishes no more than to kill it (since killing mining ships is very brave??).
Local is the only defense a miner has. Removing it means removing mining as a profession in anything but high sec.
It's an MMO! Can't you have scouts monitering the gates or do you want to be a miner like some ppl want to be a 1 man pwning machine in a MS or Titan and are disapointed when they discover they can't?
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Sky Marshal
IMpAct Corp
Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2009.06.18 19:36:00 -
[185]
Sure, people love scout same if they don't want, to permit to others to do what they want to do.
When local removers will become more realistic...
_______
Local is fine, period. |
Hrodgar Ortal
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Posted - 2009.06.18 19:56:00 -
[186]
Edited by: Hrodgar Ortal on 18/06/2009 19:56:35
Originally by: Khorin D'tael
Originally by: Hrodgar Ortal
I'll support this the day my hulk can defend itself against the 5-10 gang that wishes no more than to kill it (since killing mining ships is very brave??).
Local is the only defense a miner has. Removing it means removing mining as a profession in anything but high sec.
It's an MMO! Can't you have scouts monitering the gates or do you want to be a miner like some ppl want to be a 1 man pwning machine in a MS or Titan and are disapointed when they discover they can't?
Ok, I assume you just volunteered to do that???
Oh right... No you didn't.
It is a game, people want to have fun, babysitting someone isn't very fun for anyone.
It is a game, not work, the day it is more work than fun you won't see me at least in it.
The second local disappears mining will go poof, you will cheer with the fact that 0.0 will be empty but well thats you I guess.
What you want isn't that a miner should have friends along, what you want is riskfree kills.
Thats the only thing anyone that demands local to be removed want, so far each and every argument boils down to "the people we want to kill warp off".
When the balance of power is even between the attacker and defender things might be different but as it stands the attacker has all the advantages when he catches the defender.
Balance? Nope not in the slightest.
Balance on the other hand is needed to make a GAME! work. Local balances it a bit so that at least the people who are ratting or mining can have a fighting chance to get to keep their ships.
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Christopher Multsanti
Euphoria Released
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Posted - 2009.06.18 20:06:00 -
[187]
Originally by: Hrodgar Ortal
When the balance of power is even between the attacker and defender things might be different but as it stands the attacker has all the advantages when he catches the defender.
Balance? Nope not in the slightest.
Balance on the other hand is needed to make a GAME! work. Local balances it a bit so that at least the people who are ratting or mining can have a fighting chance to get to keep their ships.
I'll try to be as constructive as I can with you here.
If you get caught by a ship, no matter what ship you are in, if there are more of them, you will die. PVP ship, NPC ship or Barge, it does not matter.
The point is, they way the game is now, anyone awake at the keyboard, without a mental defficencey, will never ever get caught, end of. |
Obsidian Hawk
RONA Corporation
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Posted - 2009.06.18 20:25:00 -
[188]
wheee posting on an epic page 7 on something that wont happen in game.
/add fuel to the fire. |
Turin
Caldari
Body Count Inc.
Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2009.06.18 20:29:00 -
[189]
Originally by: Razin
Originally by: Turin
That depends on the ship. Intercepters and Dicters come out of warp very fast, and can align to a target almost instantly. Furthermore, a Hulk for example, takes at least a good 15 seconds just to get up to speed and warp, and thats already after its aligned. A hulk would NEVER get away.
I still stand by mty statement. If I am ratting or mining ( especially mining ), and I see a ship on my scan only 20AU away, at that point, I am dead. They just havent popped my ship yet.
Unless you're aligned, that is. Right? Don't tell me you don't know how to stay aligned and do your job.
It is obvious you didnt actually read my post based on what you wrote. Please re-read my post.
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Christopher Multsanti
Euphoria Released
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Posted - 2009.06.18 20:29:00 -
[190]
I tell a lie!!!
I was once caught in a belt while ratting a couple of years ago. Domi v Domi, and I died. And the only reason I was caught was because I was alt tabbed out of the game posting on these forums.
But some people I know have said that I am 2 cans short of a six pack, so maybe my point still stands. |
VoiceInTheDesert
Zebra Corp
Circle-Of-Two
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Posted - 2009.06.18 20:36:00 -
[191]
Originally by: Hrodgar Ortal
Ok, I assume you just volunteered to do that???
Oh right... No you didn't.
It is a game, people want to have fun, babysitting someone isn't very fun for anyone.
It is a game, not work, the day it is more work than fun you won't see me at least in it.
The second local disappears mining will go poof, you will cheer with the fact that 0.0 will be empty but well thats you I guess.
What you want isn't that a miner should have friends along, what you want is riskfree kills.
Thats the only thing anyone that demands local to be removed want, so far each and every argument boils down to "the people we want to kill warp off".
When the balance of power is even between the attacker and defender things might be different but as it stands the attacker has all the advantages when he catches the defender.
Balance? Nope not in the slightest.
Balance on the other hand is needed to make a GAME! work. Local balances it a bit so that at least the people who are ratting or mining can have a fighting chance to get to keep their ships.
I sympathize with you...I really do. But an MMO isn't meant to be played alone and it's unrealistic to assume you should be safe in nosec when you're alone, regardless of what ship you're in. My combat ship isn't any safer solo than your hulk because 00 is full of people who play together. If you want the big rewards, you gotta work with people.
And each argument does most certainly not boil down to "the ships we want are warping away." The main issue, for me at least, is with alt scouts sitting in noob ships, docked in station or cloaked in cov ops just sitting in system with no risk keeping perfect count of all your ships in local. If a cov ops pilot sneaks up on a fleet and keeps on the grid with them and actually scouts, that should be the way he gets his numbers and intel. Hell, even with the onboard scanner. But as it stands, alt scouts can just sit in space or in station and effortlessly report back numbers of hostiles.
Another annoying effect of local is the ability of wts to instantly see you and dock when you enter system. I have traveled across the galaxy and used 3-4 locator agents on a target only to have him see me in local and dock up when I got close (most of the time because he moved systems unexpectantly right before I got to where my locator said he was.
The fact that it protects macro ratters/miners or even legit ratters/miners is really a side issue. It's annoying, but it's not what most people are frustrated with.
No one wants legit people who are actually at their keyboard playing the game to get hosed. We all want a solution that's easy on the server, rewards/protects those who are paying attention and gives the shaft to the lazy ones I have described in this post. I think you could agree with that (after all, the more lazy miners we kill, the better profits on the ores you mine, right?) |
Sky Marshal
IMpAct Corp
Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2009.06.18 20:56:00 -
[192]
Edited by: Sky Marshal on 18/06/2009 21:01:07
Another one who love waste time to do nothing and think that work is playing... |
Grath Telkin
Amarr
The Illuminati.
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.06.18 21:10:00 -
[193]
Edited by: Grath Telkin on 18/06/2009 21:11:03
Originally by: Sky Marshal
Edited by: Sky Marshal on 18/06/2009 21:01:07
Another one who love waste time to do nothing and think that work is playing...
Is it wrong that I'm desperately awaiting the reset because of people like you?
Edit: To clarify, if you want risk free money making, you belong in EMPIRE (and honestly, from your posting, and obvious lack of back bone, you probably belong there anyway), if you are out in 0.0, you probably deserve to get blown up.
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Mikayla Grey
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.06.18 21:14:00 -
[194]
Originally by: Khorin D'tael
Originally by: Hrodgar Ortal
I'll support this the day my hulk can defend itself against the 5-10 gang that wishes no more than to kill it (since killing mining ships is very brave??).
Local is the only defense a miner has. Removing it means removing mining as a profession in anything but high sec.
It's an MMO! Can't you have scouts monitering the gates or do you want to be a miner like some ppl want to be a 1 man pwning machine in a MS or Titan and are disapointed when they discover they can't?
Why use 3 accounts to scout and one to mine when you can use all 4 to mine or do missions in empire? Do you really think that any player would actively "play" as a scout effectively sitting on a gate in a cov ops watching for enemies all day long (can eve be more boring?). Or maybe you think MMO means must have 4 accounts?
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Mikayla Grey
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.06.18 21:21:00 -
[195]
Edited by: Mikayla Grey on 18/06/2009 21:21:53
Originally by: Grath Telkin
Edited by: Grath Telkin on 18/06/2009 21:11:03
Originally by: Sky Marshal
Edited by: Sky Marshal on 18/06/2009 21:01:07
Another one who love waste time to do nothing and think that work is playing...
Is it wrong that I'm desperately awaiting the reset because of people like you?
Edit: To clarify, if you want risk free money making, you belong in EMPIRE (and honestly, from your posting, and obvious lack of back bone, you probably belong there anyway), if you are out in 0.0, you probably deserve to get blown up.
Chestbeating aside ratting in 0.0 without local is not smart, doesnt take balls, doesnt take skills(or maybe you think tolerating the incredible boredom of scouting is a skill). Its just stupid if your point is to make isk for your pvp ships. |
Spurty
Caldari
Ore Mongers
BricK sQuAD.
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Posted - 2009.06.18 21:25:00 -
[196]
Edited by: Spurty on 18/06/2009 21:26:05
reality check, look at all alliance killboards.
The day there are zero kills on them for a regular eve day, thats the day local going becomes plausible.
Its very far away checking the numbers just now.
Why do we even need to break the game and remove local exactly?
Its certainly not stopping people from getting kills looking again, at the kill boards.
edit: tied up in too many nots |
Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
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Posted - 2009.06.18 21:47:00 -
[197]
Edited by: Santiago Fahahrri on 18/06/2009 21:50:01
My corpmates and I would completely continue to rat in 0.0 with Local changed to Recent Speakers mode.
Those who have indicated that scouting involves sitting at a gate doing nothing for hours have a very limited understanding of what it takes to be a good scout.
As a member of (and primary scout for) a small, independant, 0.0 based corp I completely support changing local to Recent Speakers mode.
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Descrambled
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2009.06.18 21:51:00 -
[198]
What do killboards have to do with this? Many times Alliances fight each like arranged pvp. One spy on other side tells your side their fleet is in transit. So your side tries to come up with the numbers to meet up
Another consentual pvp is when two gangs are on the move. Intel reports where they going. Your fleet commander looks at composition of his gang and figures out if they can fight. The other gang will know of you most likely after you've popped their scout or spotted by the scout
Consentual pvp kills dominate Alliance killboards to an extent
And sure, there will be some random kills tossed in for good measure
meh, starting a thread asking bout Black ops but they so hideously expensive I dont know if I can even try to get the jump on a gang this way. But I guess I'm down to try it.... If that works then it would resolve my wish for surprising cowards |
Otellus
Imperial Shipment
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Posted - 2009.06.18 21:58:00 -
[199]
The only effect removing local will have is nerf 0.0 even further. All there will be is some POSses mining highend moonstuff and PvP gangs running around bored out of their skulls because there are no targets. Life in 0.0 is already pretty pointless at the moment, removing local will only skew the risk-reward ratio even further towards risks.
If CCP is gonna do this, they need to triple or quadruple the bounties on 0.0 rats at the very least. |
Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
|
Posted - 2009.06.18 22:10:00 -
[200]
Originally by: Otellus
The only effect removing local will have is nerf 0.0 even further. All there will be is some POSses mining highend moonstuff and PvP gangs running around bored out of their skulls because there are no targets. Life in 0.0 is already pretty pointless at the moment, removing local will only skew the risk-reward ratio even further towards risks.
If CCP is gonna do this, they need to triple or quadruple the bounties on 0.0 rats at the very least.
The only thing Recent Speakers mode local would nerf is lazy, dumb, or careless pilots. |
Spurty
Caldari
Ore Mongers
BricK sQuAD.
|
Posted - 2009.06.18 22:28:00 -
[201]
last couple of posters are actually on to something here.
Why not make it so that you can fit a module to your ship (which can not be fitted at the same time as a cloak to avoid abuse) that lets you see where active players are using the map?
Rather than blinding people, surely giving them more intel so they can get fights would be more the answer.
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Armoured C
Gallente
Federation of Freedom Fighters
Aggression.
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Posted - 2009.06.18 22:30:00 -
[202]
no |
Spurty
Caldari
Ore Mongers
BricK sQuAD.
|
Posted - 2009.06.18 22:38:00 -
[203]
Originally by: Armoured C
no
no to finding fights? Ok .. so CCP, local issue, non-issue.
next thread
Originally by: Cat o'Ninetails
hi cat here
i was thinking earlier about corpses...
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Joiske
|
Posted - 2009.06.18 22:38:00 -
[204]
bah this same ole cheastnut
make claoks an active module but also delay the log out timer
ok ... here it goes .. ratter warps to ss ... cloak uses some form of fuel to run or has a timer thus cloaker is safe for a period of i dunno 1 min lets say, they decloak and will need to move or riisk being scanned out.... now heres the kicker .. if they attempt to log at the stage of being cloaked make it so that you can not loggoff once you have cloaked ... bit like agression timer you hit cloak you are flagged .. thus any logoff will render your ship vulrable...
This should only apply to non covert ships ... all covert ships should retain their cloaking ability .. you cant macro in a covert ...
removing local is not an option ... 0.0 will become worse than low sec if you do that ..
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Armoured C
Gallente
Federation of Freedom Fighters
Aggression.
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Posted - 2009.06.18 22:43:00 -
[205]
Originally by: Spurty
Originally by: Armoured C
no
no to finding fights? Ok .. so CCP, local issue, non-issue.
next thread
locakl has nothing to do with finding fights
local has something to do with being ganked
infact local help with finding fight TBH
one guy ratting in a system see 50 man hostile BS gang comming through , it is then reported on the intel channels any competent 0.0 sov alliance would then have a counter fleet set up and on a gate ready for the enevitable slaughtering.
so yes no to removing local ,
although with out local my new tactic of cloaking HIC on gate and cloaking titan 200km off the gate wont really work 
JOIN FOFF NOW CHAT CHANNEL FOR MORE INFO
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Spurty
Caldari
Ore Mongers
BricK sQuAD.
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Posted - 2009.06.18 22:47:00 -
[206]
o'rly .. local has nothing to do with finding a fight?
Probably getting this intel from people that only fight when people fly into their gate camps.
Originally by: Cat o'Ninetails
hi cat here
i was thinking earlier about corpses...
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needrandomnamegenerator
|
Posted - 2009.06.18 23:01:00 -
[207]
Originally by: Armoured C
locakl has nothing to do with finding fights
local has something to do with being ganked
infact local help with finding fight TBH
one guy ratting in a system see 50 man hostile BS gang comming through , it is then reported on the intel channels any competent 0.0 sov alliance would then have a counter fleet set up and on a gate ready for the enevitable slaughtering.
so yes no to removing local ,
although with out local my new tactic of cloaking HIC on gate and cloaking titan 200km off the gate wont really work
Yea, your ******ed, THIS is why 0.0 is as empty as it is:
50 man gang spotted, 200 man defense gang formed to stop it, 50 man gang gets blue balled, goes home.
Blob warfare at its very soul.
If removing local stops that, hell yea, get it gone as soon as possible.
With the change proposed so far (recent speaker) 4 or 5 guys (OMG SMALL GANG WARFARE) can slip in to a space and actually have a chance at DOING something to an opposing force before the defense blob forms, whereas, if your space is porous enough to allow a 50 man BS fleet to slip in without SOMEBODY catching it on scan somewhere, you probably don't deserve to have said space.
This would alter a lot of tactics currently used in EVE, and I think it would be in a good way. Small gangs with something to do, blobs needing to think instead of just warp and mash fkeys while reading alphabet from their overview.
You can point to flaws all day, and other people can point out reasons this should have been done all day, in the end, its our difference in opinion of what the games "dangerous" areas should be like.
And yea, double, or even triple the current rat bounties are more than acceptable as a trade off for the slightly increased risk. I know its amazing, but you could use the extra money to PAY the lower sp alts in alliances to scout for you, or do the more mundane jobs like patrol your space with the extra money.
The options are pretty hefty at the point that you open up the game. |
Armoured C
Gallente
Federation of Freedom Fighters
Aggression.
|
Posted - 2009.06.18 23:12:00 -
[208]
removing local will make you have no fights
you get you ganks which is clearly what you want it for,
once that 50 man gang hit station systems it will be camping fest and then they will go home
you send a 50 man gang TO GET FIGHTS
if the enemy beat yuou with a 100 man fleet
well bring a 100 man fleet.
talking about blobbing and crap as if to say it bad, it is human nature why we blob, human will continuie blobbing at thie game because it causes greater chance of survival , blobbing is only going to go up
but at least with local you can see a blob comming and prepare a counter blob they brought a fleet they want a fight , i think it is only fair that they get given it and go home with there tails between there legs.
JOIN FOFF NOW CHAT CHANNEL FOR MORE INFO
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Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron
Legion of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2009.06.18 23:16:00 -
[209]
Originally by: Turin
Originally by: Razin
Originally by: Turin
That depends on the ship. Intercepters and Dicters come out of warp very fast, and can align to a target almost instantly. Furthermore, a Hulk for example, takes at least a good 15 seconds just to get up to speed and warp, and thats already after its aligned. A hulk would NEVER get away.
I still stand by mty statement. If I am ratting or mining ( especially mining ), and I see a ship on my scan only 20AU away, at that point, I am dead. They just havent popped my ship yet.
Unless you're aligned, that is. Right? Don't tell me you don't know how to stay aligned and do your job.
It is obvious you didnt actually read my post based on what you wrote. Please re-read my post.
Aligned means having your ship pointing at the warpout point at three-quarter speed. Which is what you do when you're in a dangerous environment where you may need to warp out on a moment's notice.
Just pointing your ship somewhere at 0 speed saves a little time, but it isn't being aligned. Especially for destinations off the solar ecliptic.
...
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Hiroshima Jita
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Posted - 2009.06.18 23:21:00 -
[210]
Am in favor of removing local so its in delayed mode like in wormholes.
But I require:
#1 Not to have to mash the scanner button for all eternity henceforth. Self explanatory. It means an automated scanner or something else that will take over some of the functionality.
#2 Windows in station, or even for the station to give me a list of shiptypes of whatevers on grid with it. Undocking into a station camp with no warning is bull****. Normally you can redock. Sometimes not. It would be stupid to sit in station after the change thinking, "I'm in a assualt frigate. Once I get into open space I should be fine. But I'm not in friendly space and my friends aren't around to look outside for me. I don't know how many people are in local. There could be 100 people outside the station waiting to instapop me for all I know."
Optional
#3 Some way to uncloak people at range. It would have to stretch several AU to be able to effect safespots. I do not want to play cloaking online, but I will fit cloaking devices to my ships and fly the rapier if/when local changes and cloaking becomes FOTM. If nothing else the role of uncloaking people could take the form of a new t2 ship, which I'm sure would make alot of people happy.
Changing local would have the positive benefit of making macros keel over dead. It would make it possible to sneak around underneath an innatentive group's nose. On the negative side it would also promote massive cloaking gangs. Right now if someone has 5 friends in system and nothing on scan, you can make a judgement call whether or not to engage them. With the change any fight could instantly become a gank with no way of ever knowing the possibility was there. You could get the same effect, although slightly slower by putting the fleet in a deep safespot at least 15 AU from the bait.
Also roaming gangs would puke chunks. You hit many many systems that are empty when roaming and with the change you would have to painstakingly search each one.
And the number of large ships like battleships used in combat would plummet. Currently a good set of scouts can make moving around not to bad. After the change any moment your bs could have stumbled into a deathtrap your scout went happily by.
Cloaking online I already mentioned.
On that note. If there was a new ewar ship class that was dedicated to more scanning it would be a good thing. Modules that could extend onboard scanner range, cut through cloaks and give other info about ships not ongrid would be extremely valuable in the new environment. And a shiptype that gave bonuses to those modules would be useful. Covops coulde begin to fill the role, but a slightly larger ship with a couple more abilities...
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