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Caius Sivaris Dark Nexxus	Posted - 2009.06.26 12:43:00 - [121] Originally by: OKAAAAAAAAAAAAAR Did you miss the logistics one one side and not the other? Fact is, a gank Deimos is the perfect ship to fly when you got logistics making its brittleness a non issue. And yet it still isn't worth bringing over a gank thorax. (If you REALLY want to bring blaster ships at all that is). Friendly hint : 75% resists get repped up a lot more efficiently than 50% resists... Also falloff bonus on Deimos greatly increase its damage envelope compared to a Thorax...
OKAAAAAAAAAAAAAR	Posted - 2009.06.26 12:50:00 - [122] Friendly Hint: The pluses still aren't worth the price for your terrible HAC.
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2009.06.26 12:59:00 - [123] Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 26/06/2009 12:59:47 Originally by: Caius Sivaris http://www.battledb.com/2009/06/17/catchhed-gp-aaa-c-suicide-squad-vs-cry-havoc-june-17-0730/ Did you miss the logistics one one side and not the other? Fact is, a gank Deimos is the perfect ship to fly when you got logistics making its brittleness a non issue. No, I didn't miss them. Just like I didn't miss the *four ECM ships* on the other side. I don't care how much ECCM you fit, put two ECM ships on each logistics and they're out of the fight. Like it or not, the only reason the Deimos did anything but die expensively in that fight is because the other side was either a bunch of clueless morons who don't know how to use their ships properly, or crippled by lag and unable to fight back. -----------
Poisson Distribution	Posted - 2009.06.26 13:11:00 - [124] Originally by: Davinel Lulinvega OK pulses might be a little overpowered. Might be. A little. In most cases small pulse/scorch (short range lasers) can do the job of small railguns (long range hybrids) with more damage and twice the tracking. T2 ammo needs to be looked at to give other races utility similar to Scorch. I don't want to see Scorch nerfed cause it's too fun
Caius Sivaris Dark Nexxus	Posted - 2009.06.26 13:13:00 - [125] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Originally by: Caius Sivaris http://www.battledb.com/2009/06/17/catchhed-gp-aaa-c-suicide-squad-vs-cry-havoc-june-17-0730/ Did you miss the logistics one one side and not the other? Fact is, a gank Deimos is the perfect ship to fly when you got logistics making its brittleness a non issue. No, I didn't miss them. Just like I didn't miss the *four ECM ships* on the other side. I don't care how much ECCM you fit, put two ECM ships on each logistics and they're out of the fight.
Duke Starbuckington	Posted - 2009.06.26 13:19:00 - [126] Originally by: Caius Sivaris Originally by: Merin Ryskin Originally by: Caius Sivaris http://www.battledb.com/2009/06/17/catchhed-gp-aaa-c-suicide-squad-vs-cry-havoc-june-17-0730/ Did you miss the logistics one one side and not the other? Fact is, a gank Deimos is the perfect ship to fly when you got logistics making its brittleness a non issue. No, I didn't miss them. Just like I didn't miss the *four ECM ships* on the other side. I don't care how much ECCM you fit, put two ECM ships on each logistics and they're out of the fight. I can't quite tell what you're trying to say by repeatedly linking this... do you HONESTLY think the fight was turned around because that single deimos was in there?
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2009.06.26 13:28:00 - [127] Originally by: Caius Sivaris Originally by: Merin Ryskin Originally by: Caius Sivaris http://www.battledb.com/2009/06/17/catchhed-gp-aaa-c-suicide-squad-vs-cry-havoc-june-17-0730/ Did you miss the logistics one one side and not the other? Fact is, a gank Deimos is the perfect ship to fly when you got logistics making its brittleness a non issue. No, I didn't miss them. Just like I didn't miss the *four ECM ships* on the other side. I don't care how much ECCM you fit, put two ECM ships on each logistics and they're out of the fight. 2 overloaded ECCM on a Guardian : 89 sensor strength Two ECCM on a Guardian is bloody stupid, and the Deimos is still a rubbish ship when logistics are available, because of unremarkable DPS and terrible range.
Caius Sivaris Dark Nexxus	Posted - 2009.06.26 13:29:00 - [128] Originally by: Duke Starbuckington I can't quite tell what you're trying to say by repeatedly linking this... do you HONESTLY think the fight was turned around because that single deimos was in there? Misclick edited afterward. And yes kinda. The losing side likely were "Deimos is fragile and high dps so primary". A typical Gank Deimos (3 slots resists) sustained by two circle jerking Guardians (8 large RR on it) will tank close to 3000 dps (way more in kin/therm), that's why a Thorax isn't just as good for 1/10th of the price. It's pretty hard to apply that much dps on such a small ship, so they all died.
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2009.06.26 13:34:00 - [129] Originally by: Caius Sivaris 2 overloaded ECCM on a Guardian : 89 sensor strength (10% more than a Chimera), and you can overload them stupidly long. Sure you don't get to fit the "mandatory" MWD, but typical circle jerking Guardians don't (e.g. the setup YDIW used to break camps). Putting such ships out of the fight is not that simple (and unlike a carrier, even if you manage to break lock they relock pretty fast at end of jam cycle). Hint: each of those Falcons has two Amarr racials fitted. Focus ECM on one Guardian until it's jammed, blow away the second Guardian which no longer has any incoming remote reps, against several thousand incoming dps (PS: with no MWD, even the battleships are going to hit you for 100% damage). Hell, even if all the ECM fails, that Guardian is going down. Once it dies, primary the second one and jam the rest of the fleet. Second Guardian dies fast, and then it's just a question of how many ships you can kill before they manage to get out of the bubble and warp out. Not that any of this really matters, since a Zealot would've worked just as well as the Deimos.
Caius Sivaris Dark Nexxus	Posted - 2009.06.26 13:43:00 - [130] Originally by: Gypsio III Originally by: Caius Sivaris 2 overloaded ECCM on a Guardian : 89 sensor strength Two ECCM on a Guardian is bloody stupid, and the Deimos is still a rubbish ship when logistics are available, because of unremarkable DPS and terrible range. The video, their typical Guardian setup. Results speak by themselves I think.
Duke Starbuckington	Posted - 2009.06.26 13:49:00 - [131] Originally by: Caius Sivaris Originally by: Gypsio III Originally by: Caius Sivaris 2 overloaded ECCM on a Guardian : 89 sensor strength Two ECCM on a Guardian is bloody stupid, and the Deimos is still a rubbish ship when logistics are available, because of unremarkable DPS and terrible range. The video, their typical Guardian setup. Results speak by themselves I think. I'm still missing your overall point. The deimos is only good when its being remote repped by two logistics ships? What an amazing HAC.
Davinel Lulinvega	Posted - 2009.06.26 13:55:00 - [132] Originally by: Poisson Distribution Originally by: Davinel Lulinvega OK pulses might be a little overpowered. Might be. A little. In most cases small pulse/scorch (short range lasers) can do the job of small railguns (long range hybrids) with more damage and twice the tracking. T2 ammo needs to be looked at to give other races utility similar to Scorch. I don't want to see Scorch nerfed cause it's too fun I agree. Mostly I just want to see ccp stop balancing by nerfing. It's ok to buff things sometimes too, guys. And if you've ever looked at a damage graph you can tell exactly where it's needed. When two weapon systems do less damage than lasers for nearly their entire range, you have a problem. Originally by: Caius Sivaris Originally by: Duke Starbuckington I can't quite tell what you're trying to say by repeatedly linking this... do you HONESTLY think the fight was turned around because that single deimos was in there? Misclick edited afterward. And yes kinda. The losing side likely were "Deimos is fragile and high dps so primary". A typical Gank Deimos (3 slots resists) sustained by two circle jerking Guardians (8 large RR on it) will tank close to 3000 dps (way more in kin/therm), that's why a Thorax isn't just as good for 1/10th of the price. It's pretty hard to apply that much dps on such a small ship, so they all died. So basically you're saying they died due to fc failure. The only thing this proves is that if you don't primary a logistics ship you're a moron. THIS IS NOT NEW INFORMATION. Originally by: CCP Tuxford Now the op looks like a weirdo that can't read kekekeke! inb4 stealth edit
Caius Sivaris Dark Nexxus	Posted - 2009.06.26 14:32:00 - [133] Originally by: Davinel Lulinvega So basically you're saying they died due to fc failure. The only thing this proves is that if you don't primary a logistics ship you're a moron. THIS IS NOT NEW INFORMATION. Give the guy a break he had 4 ECM ships to deal with them, that ought to be enough Merin said so. The problem with dealing with enemy logistics when you don't have any yourself is that you lose lots of your own dps ships at the beginning, trying to reduce the enemy gang dps while you still have yours make sense especially if you think your ECM boats will mitigate the logistics effect. Surely AAA could have handled the situation better but they are hardly incompetent morons. As if a Zealot would have done as well as the Deimos dunno, same or better remote repairability, more range, less dps.
AnKahn Caldari The Giant Squid Corp.	Posted - 2009.06.26 15:04:00 - [134] Edited by: AnKahn on 26/06/2009 15:06:01 The pilot is way more important than the ship. The FC is way more important than numbers until the word "blob" should rightly be used. Sometimes it is just as important to know how to disengage as it is to know when to engage. Sort of "have a plan". Guess Merin would say "hint to the clueless". Many here are training for cap ships, but there are some sub cap ships you want to play with/try out? Take a training detour and skill up that Vaga or whatever you want. See how the other side lives and then you can argue with more personal information. And Merin, stop being such an asshat. edit : spelling of someone's name
Davinel Lulinvega	Posted - 2009.06.26 15:19:00 - [135] Originally by: AnKahn Edited by: AnKahn on 26/06/2009 15:06:01 The pilot is way more important than the ship. The FC is way more important than numbers until the word "blob" should rightly be used. Sometimes it is just as important to know how to disengage as it is to know when to engage. Sort of "have a plan". Guess Merin would say "hint to the clueless". Many here are training for cap ships, but there are some sub cap ships you want to play with/try out? Take a training detour and skill up that Vaga or whatever you want. See how the other side lives and then you can argue with more personal information. And Merin, stop being such an asshat. edit : spelling of someone's name ** capitals. Seriously. I have never understood why anyone would actually want to fly one. Originally by:** CCP Tuxford Now the op looks like a weirdo that can't read kekekeke! inb4 stealth edit
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2009.06.26 15:38:00 - [136] Quote: I agree. Mostly I just want to see ccp stop balancing by nerfing. It's ok to buff things sometimes too, guys. And if you've ever looked at a damage graph you can tell exactly where it's needed. When two weapon systems do less damage than lasers for nearly their entire range, you have a problem. Why would you boost everything except one thing, if you could also just nerf that one thing. It doesn't make any sense. If one thing is not strong enough, you boost it, if one thing is too strong, you nerf it.
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Hoodlums Associates	Posted - 2009.06.26 15:42:00 - [137] Originally by: Furb Killer Quote: I agree. Mostly I just want to see ccp stop balancing by nerfing. It's ok to buff things sometimes too, guys. And if you've ever looked at a damage graph you can tell exactly where it's needed. When two weapon systems do less damage than lasers for nearly their entire range, you have a problem. Why would you boost everything except one thing, if you could also just nerf that one thing. It doesn't make any sense. If one thing is not strong enough, you boost it, if one thing is too strong, you nerf it. But I dont want to be nerfed again
Traidor Disloyal Private Nuisance	Posted - 2009.06.26 15:47:00 - [138] Edited by: Traidor Disloyal on 26/06/2009 15:51:47 Originally by: Deaudlus You would honestly rather fly an arazu or astarte instead of a curse or abso? Even though you were not talking to me specifically I can fly all four of those. I rue the day the Remote Sensor Damps were "adjusted". One of my favorite ships growing up in Eve was the Celestis. My Astarte is in my hanger and it does put out some nice DPS although I prefer my Sleipnir or my Absolution over it right now. I like the Curse but haven't had much experience with it other then on the test server and what I saw I liked. Originally by: Davinel Lulinvega **** capitals. Seriously. I have never understood why anyone would actually want to fly one. I agree with this. Never understood the fixation of "I have to train for Cap ship or I am worthless".
Davinel Lulinvega	Posted - 2009.06.26 15:48:00 - [139] Originally by: Furb Killer Quote: I agree. Mostly I just want to see ccp stop balancing by nerfing. It's ok to buff things sometimes too, guys. And if you've ever looked at a damage graph you can tell exactly where it's needed. When two weapon systems do less damage than lasers for nearly their entire range, you have a problem. Why would you boost everything except one thing, if you could also just nerf that one thing. It doesn't make any sense. If one thing is not strong enough, you boost it, if one thing is too strong, you nerf it. Because those things do not exist in a vacuum and you must also take them into account relative to the entire rest of them game. Example: 1400mm artillery and cruise missiles are obviously broken, nerfing tachyons to be as crappy as them would be stupid.
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2009.06.26 15:48:00 - [140] Originally by: Furb Killer Quote: I agree. Mostly I just want to see ccp stop balancing by nerfing. It's ok to buff things sometimes too, guys. And if you've ever looked at a damage graph you can tell exactly where it's needed. When two weapon systems do less damage than lasers for nearly their entire range, you have a problem. Why would you boost everything except one thing, if you could also just nerf that one thing. It doesn't make any sense. If one thing is not strong enough, you boost it, if one thing is too strong, you nerf it. Two reasons: 1) The whole "Amarr = FOTM" thing is incredibly exaggerated. Minmatar and Caldari have almost as many (and possibly equally many) top-tier ships that are awesome and worth flying. Gallente suffer a bit more here, but even they have some very powerful ships (Dominix, for example). If you nerf Amarr, you'll also have to nerf all these other top-tier ships, or you just shift the FOTM title from Amarr to someone else. The better way of doing things is to boost the problem ships up to the level of the good ones. 2) Besides just considering the balance between weapons, we also have to consider the balance between offense overall and defense. Boosting everything to the level of Amarr/pulses ensures that we can all kill stuff effectively, boosting solo PvP. Nerfing pulses just makes everyone suck equally at killing quickly, motivating people to compensate for poor offense with sheer numbers of people in gang.
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2009.06.26 16:22:00 - [141] That is certainly true, but then the problem is that ships arent gankie enough, and need more dps, so all weapons need dps boost. And so indeed you are right that sometimes it can be better to boost 3 instead of nerfing 1, simply because if you nerf 1 you then got to boost 4. However being against nerfing because it is a nerf and not a boost is just stupid. For example lets assume we got a geddon which has twice the armor HP it has now. Would you now boost every other ship also with far higher HPs + boost all weapon systems to compensate and keep the gank/tank ratio equal? Of course not you nerf the crap out of that geddon.
Misanth Reaper Industries	Posted - 2009.06.26 16:44:00 - [142] Edited by: Misanth on 26/06/2009 16:44:32 My dualwielding fighter will beat your wizard anyday because you wear a dress ahololololoollloll!11!!!1! facepalm - I'd tell you why but then I'll have to kill you. And to kill you I'd have to log in. And to log in I'd have to stop browsing these forums. Both you and me knows that'll never happen.
Poisson Distribution	Posted - 2009.06.26 17:36:00 - [143] Originally by: Furb Killer Why would you boost everything except one thing, if you could also just nerf that one thing. Because there's enough useless crap in the game already without adding to the pile.
Poisson Distribution	Posted - 2009.06.26 17:42:00 - [144] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Two reasons: 1) The whole "Amarr = FOTM" thing is incredibly exaggerated. Minmatar and Caldari have almost as many (and possibly equally many) top-tier ships that are awesome and worth flying. Gallente suffer a bit more here, but even they have some very powerful ships (Dominix, for example). If you nerf Amarr, you'll also have to nerf all these other top-tier ships, or you just shift the FOTM title from Amarr to someone else. The better way of doing things is to boost the problem ships up to the level of the good ones. 2) Besides just considering the balance between weapons, we also have to consider the balance between offense overall and defense. Boosting everything to the level of Amarr/pulses ensures that we can all kill stuff effectively, boosting solo PvP. Nerfing pulses just makes everyone suck equally at killing quickly, motivating people to compensate for poor offense with sheer numbers of people in gang. Excellent post. I think that we're closer to overall balance than we were before the days of Blasters + Drones > all, and lolAmarr. Reducing base EM resist has been a huge buff for laser boats (and make Curator IIs a nasty nasty surprise, wups did I say that out loud?) However overstated, though, Amarr are clearly premier league when it comes to tank + gank. I'd really like to see damage-over-time (and 'endurance over time') reintroduced as a factor, however. Ideally Gallente ships can be adjusted so that they can take the pounding they get trying to maneuver into blaster range, while Amarr might need a little of that cap instability back that used to plague them.
Davinel Lulinvega	Posted - 2009.06.26 18:56:00 - [145] Originally by: Furb Killer That is certainly true, but then the problem is that ships arent gankie enough, and need more dps, so all weapons need dps boost. And so indeed you are right that sometimes it can be better to boost 3 instead of nerfing 1, simply because if you nerf 1 you then got to boost 4. However being against nerfing because it is a nerf and not a boost is just stupid. For example lets assume we got a geddon which has twice the armor HP it has now. Would you now boost every other ship also with far higher HPs + boost all weapon systems to compensate and keep the gank/tank ratio equal? Of course not you nerf the crap out of that geddon. Agreed. I am not opposed to nerfing things that actually need to be nerfed. But ccp has had a tendency to overnerf things to the lowest common denominator, and I would hate to see that happen to pulses and scorch.
John Blackthorn Foundation Sons of Tangra	Posted - 2009.06.26 20:06:00 - [146] I've been playing this game just about since it came out and over the years I have flown each race of ships starting with Caldari, Ammar, then Mimitar. I resisted for a long time before training Gallente. What I found is that each race has there caviots or you could say issues. Caldari which typically use missles (time to target issues), and mid slots were typicaly not available for scramblers due to needing the mid slot for tank. Also MWD normally didn't fit too sell into caldari ships. Ammar use quite a bit of capacitor and can are limited mostly to EM/Therm damage. Mimitar I had stayed with and used the most they are fast and can normally fit a mwd easly, don't have cap issues due to guns not using cap. However, there auto cannons have pretty short range and there artillery big power grid and slow rof. So In finally trained Gallente and thought well it's got to be the best ships. Megathon is nice, so is Domi. Ishtar can hold it's own as well But it came down to fitting on the Gallente ships. Seems most all of there ships need a cap booster and there hard to fit without using some faction or non-t2 mod's. In summary I'm impressed in the way that each race is balanced and has there strenths and weaknesss and no race truly has an edge on the others. -John Blackthorn Foundation, CEO Member of SOT
VanNostrum The Littlest Hobos Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.06.26 20:34:00 - [147] Edited by: VanNostrum on 26/06/2009 20:35:01 I don't agree with amarr ships being unbalanced etc it's mainly Scorch ammo that makes pulses that valuable. But this can be easily balanced by increasing tracking penalty from 25% to 50% yeah some amarr beam ships would still be good, but that doesn't mean every good ship/module needs nerfing edit: i believe Gallente ships are fantastic, though blasters need a tiny boost to optimal range imo.
Therran Promitz Caldari	Posted - 2009.06.27 00:05:00 - [148] All of the races's ships are terrible. Pirate ships are the way to go pew pews random Domi with a Nightmare
Grarr Dexx Amarr Corp 1 Allstars	Posted - 2009.06.27 01:57:00 - [149] Originally by: Deaudlus Originally by: Grarr Dexx As an Amarr, I sometimes wished I was a Gallente pilot. I seriously can't see the whines here? Taranis, Ishkur, Vexor, Thorax, Ishtar, Arazu, Astarte, Dominix, Megathron, Hyperion (insane 1v1 boat), Thanatos, Nyx. I seriously wished I could fly these mother****ers. You would honestly rather fly an arazu or astarte instead of a curse or abso? I would take the Astarte over the Absolution any day.
Knight Storm Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2009.06.27 09:46:00 - [150] Edited by: Knight Storm on 27/06/2009 09:46:23 Originally by: Psilocybe Semilanceata Edited by: Psilocybe Semilanceata on 24/06/2009 21:14:21 I've been flying gallente ships since late 06, and it seems to me that in alot of cases, other races of ships are better. With the exception of the domi and the ishtar, gallante pvp ships are always one-upped by same-category-different-race ships. I'm anticipating the learn to fly flames, unfortunately I don't care : ) Gallente ships are my favorite for PVP. In fact even after blaster nerf from may claim they are still over powered. Example. Today heres me killing a Cane and Command ship 2v1 in a Myrm and killing both http://www.bradster.net/movies/2v1.wmv Edit: wrong char oh well.

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