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Catching up to Older Players

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ArmyOfMe The Athiest Syndicate Advocated Destruction	Posted - 2009.07.19 20:34:00 - [61] i agree, its bloody unfair that i wont ever catch up to those 100mill sp chars i think ill manage though
Zartanic	Posted - 2009.07.19 20:41:00 - [62] Edited by: Zartanic on 19/07/2009 20:43:46 Originally by: Lanissum WoW, I wasn't expecting this post to be so... 'popular'. After skimming through the inevitable flames, I did glean some decent counter arguments... namely: 1. Old players can also do anything that I've suggested, and they'll probably have more resources to do so. 2. Some of my ideas are a bit exploitable (especially the skill merging one) 3. You can get to 90% (I would say more like 80%, but w/e) effectiveness within a few weeks in any particular field (except for mandated level V's) So, I guess I'd like to know what you guys think of the current system (CCP sanctioned character sales). I'm sorry to tell you that if you keep insisting what has been proven to be incorrect you will fail badly in this game. You have no workable idea and the single most important skill you have is your brain, all else does not make you a better player. I know this is irrelevant in most MMORPG's but in EVE its the key to being the best. And the reason why so many reply to you is this total crap your spouting affects potential new players who believe it. This is not WOW or any other clone so get over yourself and stop thinking you will revolutionise something that's worked very well for many years. In other games you have to level to get to end game and a level 80 can thrash a level 75 with ease. There is only the end game. In EVE you do not have to 'level' to beat another player and there IS NO ENDGAME. You would be better off in a game where you can power level in a week or two and then spend the rest of your time being terrible at the game play as you never bothered to learn your class. For class read ship.
Khemul Zula Amarr Keisen Trade League	Posted - 2009.07.19 20:47:00 - [63] Originally by: Pepsicor Maybe there is a way to make everyone happy. Nope. Seriously, nope. Can't make everyone happy. Make the world a bright sunny paradise where all a person's wishes are granted instantly, and you'll still have people complaining that it is too damned bright out. Or that the wish wasn't granted fast enough. Or that wishes granted today just arn't what they used to be. Back in the day you had to travel miles in the snow (which is odd in a bright sunny paradise) to have a wish granted, and the person doing it was senile so half the time you'd get the complete opposite. But you were happy with it, because if you complained you would probably be turned into a duck. Can't make everyone happy. "In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded."
The PitBoss Caldari Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2009.07.19 20:48:00 - [64] I wanna catch up with people who signed up for BETA Thank-You, The Pitboss (Space between The & Pitboss) Signatures by: Kalen Vox
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Hoodlums Associates	Posted - 2009.07.19 20:59:00 - [65] A 100 mil sp char is no better at flying a retribution than me when I was at 16 mil sp and that is all that counts.
Tippia Raddick Explorations	Posted - 2009.07.19 20:59:00 - [66] Originally by: Lanissum After skimming through the inevitable flames, I did glean some decent counter arguments... namely: 1. Old players can also do anything that I've suggested, and they'll probably have more resources to do so. 2. Some of my ideas are a bit exploitable (especially the skill merging one) 3. You can get to 90% (I would say more like 80%, but w/e) effectiveness within a few weeks in any particular field (except for mandated level V's) 1. The problem you think you're seeing doesn't exist. What you're describing is simply a symptom of an assumption or uninformed belief that EVE works like the class/level-based systems so commonly used in other MMOs, where higher/larger/more = better. The solution to this problem is simple: stop believing that the game works that way. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Trathen Minmatar	Posted - 2009.07.19 21:00:00 - [67] Originally by: Lanissum Currently, there is only one way of 'catching up' with the older players SP wise. That way is by purchasing a character (for a large isk sum) from somebody else made. I don't really like this 'solution', namely because it requires that you literally become an older player. As I sit on 4 billion + isk, I don't really want to buy an Uber PvP char (which probably costs 10b +) because I've invested over a year into Lanissum. Wrong, I caught up to quite a few old players, right before scrambling and webbing. _
Zartanic	Posted - 2009.07.19 21:04:00 - [68] Edited by: Zartanic on 19/07/2009 21:04:46 It would be wrong for the game too, Its a bit like someone telling the Times newspaper they should put **** on page 3 as The Sun does and it has more readers. Eve is intentionally not competing with WOW the same as The Times is not competing with The Sun, it appeals to different players..intentionally. If it did try and compete it will crash and burn like all the other MMORPG's that tried. So anything that dumbs the game down must be handled with great care. I actually do think training could be reduced but everytime I see the reason for it is to make it easier I'm put off the whole idea.
nahtoh Caldari Vanguard Frontiers Sc0rched Earth	Posted - 2009.07.19 21:38:00 - [69] Originally by: Pepsicor Edited by: Pepsicor on 19/07/2009 16:29:08 As much as I would love to see some of the OP's ideas happen. Sadly they won't unless there is a big change at CCP. It's obvious that the game company running EVE wants to make more money. Look at all the ads they have. But still subscriptions have been pretty flat. So instead they nickle & dime the current players base. If CCP really wants to make money and improve the subscription base they will have to make it so in 6 months a player can compete at the highest level with the best ships. There are plenty of great gamers in the MMO community who would love to participate in EVE who aren't going to invest years of their life to compete at the highest level. Eve is a great game with the potential for some great PVP in regular game play and tournaments. But it shouldn't take years for a player to build skill points simply to fly a ship and compete with others. Right now it has nothing to do with player skill, it's all about skill points. (I know that will make the Eve Elite angry, but it's true.) And the change would be a mass lobotimy, but you seem to have got in there first. I know I have been killed by older players, same age players and younger players and...ah bugger it why try and argue this yet again with a ! it never works. I miss when i started looked all the things to train and thought "cool I got all this stuff to look forward to!!!!!". ========= "I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem fix its self
Rhohan Minmatar Pelennor Swarm	Posted - 2009.07.19 22:02:00 - [70] New players will be able to catch up to where older players were, by playing as long as they did. Over time, as more and more older players take breaks from the game, you will eventually catch up to most. This game is going to be around for years to come. You need to think on that scale, not just of the moment. Some older players will never quit, so they will be nearly un-catchable, but their MedClones will eventually cost far more than yours, and they will have little advantage, if any, over you. If you allow a way for new players to catch up to older players, you will have to do this at ever increasing rates in the future? Where does it end? Essentially, you are bringing power-leveling into a game that has no need or purpose for it. And you dramatically shorten the possbile lifespan of this game in the process. Its not about the SP you have, its the isk and friends you have. Of course you need the base entry sp amounts in the proper fields, but that just means you "should have" learned the basics of the game by then. Those who are fixated on the total sp amount are trying to apply rules of other games to this one and are ignorant of the reality of the game mechanics for this game. Sometimes I wish we could apply filters to these forums. To ignore all from accounts that are less than 1 year old. Might filter out a lot of the noise. But sometimes new players do really bring up a fresh angle on the game. But not in this case.
Artassaut Minmatar Oblivion Amalgamated	Posted - 2009.07.19 22:40:00 - [71] 10 Pod them. 20 Go to 10. Eventually they will forget to update their clone, and start losing SP. --- The Gate: Lol, try targeting me in a fleet fight. The Station: No U.
Lord Haur Amarr Cursed Souls	Posted - 2009.07.19 22:54:00 - [72] Edited by: Lord Haur on 19/07/2009 22:54:31 Originally by: Michwich In real life theres always a chance you can hit it big, catch up and even surpass the powers and families that be who have generations of wealth to their advantage. Now you take a look at CPP's rendition of a perfect game (life) and you can plainly see how it differs and why it would be a problem. If God designed our game this way, why isnt CCP doing it the same way? Is it even fair to hold CCP to such a high standard of design? I think so. In the meantime while CPP figures out how to make the perfect game, they can put in some stop gaps like mods that let you grind for skill training time, or better boosters that speed up that process, or just open up the market and let us buy them. The example given is shown ingame by finding an Estamel's Modified Invuln in a wreck abandoned on a gate. Highly unlikely, but possible. Are you suggesting we should be able to learn to drive, swim, fly a plane and learn particle physics instantly? Somehow, that doesn't happen in RL. v0v Edit: Fixed space.
Lanissum The Python Cartel.	Posted - 2009.07.19 23:23:00 - [73] Originally by: Trathen Originally by: Lanissum Currently, there is only one way of 'catching up' with the older players SP wise. That way is by purchasing a character (for a large isk sum) from somebody else made. I don't really like this 'solution', namely because it requires that you literally become an older player. As I sit on 4 billion + isk, I don't really want to buy an Uber PvP char (which probably costs 10b +) because I've invested over a year into Lanissum. Wrong, I caught up to quite a few old players, right before scrambling and webbing. ^Lol, this -sig- Check this out! Get Free Mods!
Soren PAK	Posted - 2009.07.20 00:22:00 - [74] Current skills: 185 (skill points: 108,796,511) You'll never beat me!! P.S. I haven't undocked in ages and everyone scares me
Akiba Penrose	Posted - 2009.07.20 00:25:00 - [75] [ 2009.07.19 00:22:01 ] Soren > I"M UNDOCKING!!
Radoslav Pirs Cult of Negerbun	Posted - 2009.07.20 00:38:00 - [76] Originally by: Akiba Penrose [ 2009.07.19 00:22:01 ] Soren > I"M UNDOCKING!! hehe nice one Akiba
Sidrat Flush Caldari Life is Experience New Eden Hardware Emporium	Posted - 2009.07.20 02:22:00 - [77] When you buy a character you don't have to put it on the same account as your current main, obtain a new account with a throwaway alt and get the character you want. Yes you'll be responsible for two accounts, but you'll have two characters then you'll see why the skill training isn't actually that imbalanced as it seems to be when people say they have 60M skill points. What is messed up is that one person could be controlling three characters at a time simply because they can, but that's a different arguement and really I've long since got over any hangups from my earlier percieved notion that there were actually only ten people playing eve due to the number of alt accounts there are. Anyway, thankfully not all are active, just like the skill points when you're flying one ship or another. EXP-L Eve Industrial Organiser
Taedrin Gallente Golden Mechanization Protectorate	Posted - 2009.07.20 02:55:00 - [78] Originally by: Lord Haur Edited by: Lord Haur on 19/07/2009 22:54:31 Originally by: Michwich In real life theres always a chance you can hit it big, catch up and even surpass the powers and families that be who have generations of wealth to their advantage. Now you take a look at CPP's rendition of a perfect game (life) and you can plainly see how it differs and why it would be a problem. If God designed our game this way, why isnt CCP doing it the same way? Is it even fair to hold CCP to such a high standard of design? I think so. In the meantime while CPP figures out how to make the perfect game, they can put in some stop gaps like mods that let you grind for skill training time, or better boosters that speed up that process, or just open up the market and let us buy them. The example given is shown ingame by finding an Estamel's Modified Invuln in a wreck abandoned on a gate. Highly unlikely, but possible. Are you suggesting we should be able to learn to drive, swim, fly a plane and learn particle physics instantly? Somehow, that doesn't happen in RL. v0v Edit: Fixed space. More like finding an Estamel's Modified Invul inside a shuttle that you smartbombed on a gate in low sec. Has happened on several occasions, IIRC.
Karo Manir	Posted - 2009.07.20 06:01:00 - [79] Originally by: Lanissum WoW, I wasn't expecting this post to be so... 'popular'. After skimming through the inevitable flames, I did glean some decent counter arguments... namely: 1. Old players can also do anything that I've suggested, and they'll probably have more resources to do so. 2. Some of my ideas are a bit exploitable (especially the skill merging one) 3. You can get to 90% (I would say more like 80%, but w/e) effectiveness within a few weeks in any particular field (except for mandated level V's) So, I guess I'd like to know what you guys think of the current system (CCP sanctioned character sales). Most players think about it the same way the devs think about it. It is going to happen inevitably, lets make it contribute to the game. If there wasn't a formal system for trading characters, they wold be sold on e-bay and by toon farmers just like every other MMO. As for the older characters always having more SP, in almost every social system experience or age has benefits. SP are Eve's rudimentary form of hazing (which is not necessarily bad). We had to get along with only a handful of ship options and learn to adapt before our options widened, you must do the same before you can really be our equal. In a school setting, it is thought you should be a fish before you are a sophomore, a sophomore before a junior, and a junior before a senior. Within fraternities, ROTCs, or other college groups, those distinctions come with benefits not necessarily tied to organizational rank (the hall president may be a sophomore but at a hall dinner he will bus a senior's tray). In Eve, the benefit of seniority is a diversity of capabilities represented by your skill point count. In order to properly appreciate being an 80 million sp player you must know what it is lie to be a 40 million sp character and to properly appreciate being a 40 million sp player you must know what it is like to be a 20 million sp character, etc. I realize my analogy is poorly worded but bive me a break, it is 1am and I am more that a little drunk. ----------------------- Note, this is an alt. It is used when I say stupid things. It is also used when I troll. It does not get used often.
m3rb3aSt Minmatar Advanced Component Research Enterprise GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.07.20 06:24:00 - [80] you know i had the same thought when i first started playing but i stuck with it and now I have almost 40m sp however it doesn't take long to catch up. just a few skills to V for a certain ship and you will be as good as an '03
SK Rooster Gallente No Trademark	Posted - 2009.07.20 06:52:00 - [81] Originally by: No Homo Cry more noob
Jacinta Worth Raddick Explorations	Posted - 2009.07.20 07:33:00 - [82] You know, considering how many people make the argument that skill points mean very little I'm surprised there aren't more in favour of some other method to gain them. My personal major argument against it would be that it takes some time to get used to the mechanics of the game. Having the ability to fly the biggest and most expensive ships in the game within the first week would lead to a lot of unhappy people when said ship got blown up. However since the ability to buy old characters is already in existence this happens fairly often anyway. I suspect much of the reason for the length of training time is that CCP like to dangle a carrot in front of us (that is the general population who don't buy old characters) to keep us playing for longer than we would have originally planned. I have no issues with this since I have felt effective enough in a fight since about six months into the game and thoroughly enjoyed my time previous to that in any case. Regardless, I feel like the system works as it is. I like to try and keep an open mind about changes to the skill-point mechanic and certainly don't think getting riled up because someone thinks changing it might be a good idea accomplishes anything but currently, it takes what, three months, to become really excellent at flying interceptors, at which point you can effectively participate in 'end-game' politics. And you can participate in anycase well before then. I don't see how this is worse than any other MMO out there in all honesty. How long does it take your average WoW player to be able to participate in the end game there? Two months? More? Dunno, never played it but my impression is it'll take around that long to hit max level playing an average amount a week. And even if it's less, I don't believe you could be useful in the same way a week or two week old character in EVE could be useful after the same period of time. If you're really that desperate to, I don't know, get into a capital ship or something one month into the game then buy a character that can do that. Your main doesn't necessarily need to get in to a capital ship at all and you can continue training that up while you're in the capital pounding POSes or in your Golem doing missions. And seriously, don't sweat the 'never catching up to the old guys' thing. After a year it doesn't matter much anyway and after six months you'll have enough options to feel like you're pretty handy in more than a few situations. Hmmm, that became a lot longer than I expected. TL:DR? I think things are fine the way they are but I don't think it'd do any harm to have a rethink about the old mechanics every once in a while.
Sheriff Jones Amarr Clinical Experiment	Posted - 2009.07.20 07:35:00 - [83] No need to catch up to older players, we'll wait for you at the end. My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.
Dapto Minmatar Dissolution Of Eternity	Posted - 2009.07.20 08:04:00 - [84] What people forget is NOOBS dont have a fricken clue and will waist many days-weeks training skills that arent necessary to the specialised ship they end up wanting. Now I'm at a stage too (very very angry) if new players got a supper start that reduced their training more than now. I do however agree in principle to the op but think there is no solution to this looking inside the box. Outside the box you could do this CCP. CCP could charge equal to one year subscription upfront as a one off per character which will give the player 25mil SP. This will give you no game time and could be introduced and be available to all players new and old. Still doesnt rebalance Skill Points but I'd say this would be taken up buy many players. If it was done like this older players wont be able to whinge because they'd have the option to take this up too. But watch the NOOBS whinge as they'd put most, if not all in useless skills. Dapto
Grimpak Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2009.07.20 09:40:00 - [85] ah yes the age old "you have a bigger e-peen than I. I want that too" debacle. hint: player skill > SP disregard that and you'll be blown'd up in your npc'ing CNR raven with heavy launchers and a tach with large shield booster in the mids, a med repper in the lows and 2 WCS the first time you hit low-sec, and then you will cry that, since the people that blew you up were playing longer than you, they had more SP than you, but you fail to say that they were just 3-month old players armed with drakes that decided on the get-go to pirate and learn the ropes of it. --- Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
Princess Misha Caldari	Posted - 2009.07.20 09:44:00 - [86] THE original post makes me think of HIGHLANDER: There can be ONLY one!!! By merging / absorbing other players power / skill points, you become better. hmmmm.. i wanna absorb Dr caymus...
Okonaa	Posted - 2009.07.20 10:49:00 - [87] Even though im a noob (3,5m) i like it. that way you dont see l33t kids like in other games, who think they are so uber with their 1337 skills. the more i think about it, the better i like the CCP way of gaining experience in this game.
Gareshor	Posted - 2009.07.20 10:55:00 - [88] I've been playing this game for less than a month, and your idea sucks. I'm sorry, but just having messed around and done a lot of math...I can see myself being proficient in what I WANT to be proficient in in 6 months. I like the idea of an MMO where an individual can keep progressing without hitting a hard cap. I also like the Eve does have certain "hard caps" in specific areas, but once you master those you can expand into another area. This isn't WoW. I played WoW. I raided.(It was my first MMO, so gimme a break), and after experiencing all there was...that game is flawed. It's basically made for mass appeal while lacking substance and nuance. It's boring. Eve can be difficult at times, and it may not be fair, but just looking at some of the things CCP has done to fix problems, and the way it's designed...it works. It works a hell of a lot better than WoW did, or any of the other MMOs I've tried. Give it a rest. The skill system works.
000Hunter000 Gallente Missiles 'R' Us	Posted - 2009.07.20 11:48:00 - [89] Tell it to the 2year old elite miner in his T2 kitted Hulk, who got owned by a 2 week old in a T1 frig. Older players just have more skills in MORE areas. specialize and u can match or even outperform them with ease. NOW STOP WHINING!!! ________________________________________________
Chantilly Layce	Posted - 2009.07.20 11:50:00 - [90] While I sympathize with many players who join the game and feel overwhelmed to some degree by the learning curve this game requires, and the time one must invest in that learning curve, the whole proposal of "catching up" is flawed right from the get-go. The game universe is not meant to have a population of homogenously skilled and experienced players. Indeed that diversity is key to so much of the day-to-day adventure in this game that any attempt, including some sort of "catching up" scheme for skills fueled by copious amounts of ISK, would ruin the game to such a catastrophic degree that players probably wouldn't want to play anymore. It simply would not be the same game. So, yes, I believe a [relatively] new player's only option to "catch up" should be to purchase an older toon and "jump in at the top" with that 2 or 3 year old character. Your Mileage May Vary.

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