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Undertow Latheus
Minmatar
Neo Spartans
Laconian Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.09.03 04:11:00 -
[1]
Yes i know this might seem like a bit of a spam thread in light of the Tempest thread now approaching 1,000 replies, but the phoon has its own host of problems and deserves its own thread.
The Typhoon's biggest problem is that it effectively has only one skill bonus. Currently it has two skill bonuses collectively giving it a 25% dps bonus, while mega, baddon, geddon, raven, etc. get the same dps bonus with one skill bonus, and get another helpful skill bonus on top of it. As it stands right now, it would be similar to the Abaddon having one skill bonus giving 25% more dps to four of its turrets, and its second skill bonus giving 25% more dps to the second four turrets.
So obviously the point of the current two bonuses becoming one would be to give it another skill bonus and thus make the ship more effective... But what bonuses?
It can't have large projectile tracking, falloff, or optimal bonus because that would only be helping half of its weapons. Similarly, it can't have a miscellaneous missile bonus such as flight time, velocity, and explosion radius because that would only be boosting half of its weapons.. A few years ago, a speed bonus would have been great, but now it would be a slap in the face.
In my mind, the best candidates are either:
1. Armor Resist (Although it would be unconventional since no other minmatar ships have armor bonuses)
2. Second DPS bonus, making it the true minmatar dps ship of choice.
3rd, And probably my favorite: Drone DPS / HP bonus. It is already the closest thing minmatar has to a drone boat, having 125 Drone Bandwith and 175m3 Drone Bay Capacity. This would highlight this aspect of the phoon and make it considerably better. Personally I would be fine with leaving its drone bay at 175m3 or only raising it slightly, so that the dominix remains the most drone proficient battleship.
This would also play into the ship's role more than a second dps bonus since phoons often forsake half or all of their weapons for neuts / nos and RR, although sometimes they are fit with both torpedoes and autocannons for max dps.
Even after this change it would still face problems like the split weapon upgrades that comes with split weapon systems and that weapon mods are only half as effective as on other battleships, and the immense skill requirements to fly it well, but that can be taken with a grain of salt since its not something that could really be changed, and when determining the effectiveness of ships you dont assume that the pilot sucks at flying it.
Please post any ideas or opinions about the typhoon that you have that you think would be good ways to fix it, as to make a brainstorm of sorts of different ideas to fix the phoon, or just comment on the skill bonus change I proposed. After this thread accumulates a good amount of ideas, an Assembly Hall thread will probably be made with the best ideas in it.
However, this thread is intended to only be about the typhoon in particular, and not about tempests or (large) projectiles, although both of them need help as well, there is already a thread for the pest, which also has lots of proposals about projectiles too.
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AstroPhobic
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2009.09.03 04:15:00 -
[2]
You're going to get a lot of flak, as the dominix and vexor both have split bonuses as well (iirc).
Previous suggestions typically include:
5 turret/5 launcher HP
6 turret HP
Some drone nonsense
Ones currently up under my suggestion thread in assembly hall:
Switch armor/shield HP values
Increased fittings (1000pg/40 CPU)
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Undertow Latheus
Minmatar
Neo Spartans
Laconian Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.09.03 05:12:00 -
[3]
Vexor and Domi dont have the same fubar skill bonuses that the phoon has, the domi just has a bonus that often isnt used because it most often uses drones and cap warfare and RR, but you can fit a blaster domi or vexor that takes advantage of both skill bonuses. The phoon really only has one skill bonus. As far as arguably wasted skill bonuses, tons of ships suffer from them such as the jaguar that has the optimal bonus for arty but the slot layout and fitting for AC's, but it's better than not having the optimal bonus at all for those rare times that you fit arty on a jag. The phoon and the other ships with split weapons take it to a whole new level
As far as the fitting problem goes, I actually considered putting that problem in this thread, but all tier 1 battleships have the same problem. Domi can only fit electron blaster cannons, and geddons have absolutely crap CPU. But yeah, it's pretty impossible to fit a dual rep fit on a phoon, and it does show that the phoon might need a powergrid buff if the pest has 5k more pg than it and not much more powergrid need than the phoon.
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Artemis Rose
Sileo In Pacis
The Space P0lice
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Posted - 2009.09.03 05:33:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Undertow Latheus
....and the immense skill requirements to fly it well, but that can be taken with a grain of salt since its not something that could really be changed, and when determining the effectiveness of ships you dont assume that the pilot sucks at flying it.
Really now. Missiles have an advantage at being very good with smaller skill investments. A good 2-3 million skills points would yield you just about all the Torp skills you need.
As for the rest (T2 guns, T2 Heavy Drones, supports and armor tanking) you'd need them for a Mega and a Geddon to name a few.
Leave the skill bonus what is is, that is what makes the ship. Its in the game for its versatility. If you don't want that, you fly something else.
If it got changed, only two I'd really support
1. Raise the base EM resist back to 70% 
2. Switch the armor and the shield HP around.
***
Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space
Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine, Self Banstick +2
WTB: +666 E-peen killboard stats |
Terianna Eri
Amarr
Scrutari
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Posted - 2009.09.03 05:42:00 -
[5]
worth pointing out that a 25% reduction in rate of fire to a weapon system(which, as far as i know, is what the phoon's bonuses are) results in a 33% bonus to DPS
__________________________________
Originally by: CCP Whisper
Boo hoo. Cry some more.
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Ecky X
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Posted - 2009.09.03 05:50:00 -
[6]
Not trying to shoot ya down, but I'm fairly happy with the Phoon's performance. Granted, I have 55mil SP and nearly every skill related to the Phoon maxed...
The only beef I have is that autocannons are almost not worth fitting on it, ever. Unbonused torps do something like 66% more dps than unbonused autocannons.
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Artemis Rose
Sileo In Pacis
The Space P0lice
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Posted - 2009.09.03 05:51:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Undertow Latheus
Vexor and Domi dont have the same fubar skill bonuses that the phoon has, the domi just has a bonus that often isnt used because it most often uses drones and cap warfare and RR, but you can fit a blaster domi or vexor that takes advantage of both skill bonuses.
An electron Domi is really only useful at station undock points, as being trimarked and plated makes it a real slug.A DPS phoon would actually have the speed and the agility to get into range.
A Typhoon could do more DPS w/ 4 highslots (either set as well) and Ogre IIs than a Domi does with just drones. You'd then get 4 slots for RR/cap warfare/whatever. You'd trade the midslot and a few spare highs for more damage. Since people are creaming their pants over the 3 midslot geddon, 4 should be workable no?
Quote:
But yeah, it's pretty impossible to fit a dual rep fit on a phoon, and it does show that the phoon might need a powergrid buff if the pest has 5k more pg than it and not much more powergrid need than the phoon.
Fitting a dual rep setup on any of the Tier 1 BSes is a terrible idea. It may be slightly workable on the Domi, but neither the Geddon nor the Phoon should have ever have a dual rep setup.
***
Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space
Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine, Self Banstick +2
WTB: +666 E-peen killboard stats |
Spaztick
Terminal Impact
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Posted - 2009.09.03 05:57:00 -
[8]
I would say give the phoon a 7.5% projectile damage bonus, but then again this may be an issue with projectiles and not the ship itself.
On another topic, I finally removed that annoying sentence in my signature.
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Tyler Lowe
DROW Org
Brotherhood of the Spider
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Posted - 2009.09.03 06:02:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Tyler Lowe on 03/09/2009 06:04:43
I can see you've put some time into this post, but for a moment, let's just take a look at what the Typhoon is capable of right now, without using AC's. I will assume rank 4 torp specialization, and otherwise maximized missile skills, as well as racial drone spec 4, but interfacing 5.
DPS with 2 BCU's and Faction Torps: 509
DPS from 5 large drones: 253
Without AC's that's 762 DPS.
Unbonused AC's, assuming maxed gunnery skills and large AC spec level 4, will add a further 136 DPS with Barrage loaded. So right now, without adding a drone bonus, the ship, in skilled, though not perfect hands, and assuming no implant help can output 898 DPS without the AC bonus. What sort of Drone bonus would this be exactly? 5% per level? I can't see allowing more than that TBH. With faction EMP instead of Barrage (although who are we kidding, no one is going to use unbonused AC's over neuts- most people would rather fit the neuts now even with the bonus) that unbonused AC figure is 157 DPS, which puts the ship output at 982 DPS given your suggested change.
I think the Typhoon is fine the way it is. AC's are terible and need help.... badly. Torp fitting requirements strike me as wrong too, but I will stop beating that horse for now.
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Roemy Schneider
Vanishing Point.
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Posted - 2009.09.03 06:29:00 -
[10]
fixing split weapons would take care of
- nagl
- phoon
- huginn
- lachesis
- eris
- faction scythe (drifter...?)
- lots of faction frigates
probably some more i can't come up with in 10 secs...
nagl isnt truely split anymore: one damage focus with extra missles, like a stabber or cyclone -.-
and the phoon is actually the only one with a focused slot layout and a mentionable amount of drones - and is still inferior at all-lvl-V
in the phoon's case one can still be a... valueable fleet member by ignoring its racial weapons (projectiles... go figure...) and just go for missiles. although the 125m¦ drones are nothing special with megas and geddons around, you can be the one with four high-slot tools. but then you look at the dominix and realize quickly that gallente bs II laughs at the phoon.
and if there's anyone here that thinks one of the listed shis is fine, raise your hand. until then i'd say get rid of split weapons - it hasn't worked for 5+ years. some of us have all the (important) skills at V for the phoon and yet its only good time was during the first nano era.
or throw in extra slots like you did on the nagl -.-
and full drone compliments for their sizes: 15m¦ for frigs, 50m¦ for cruisers (and we already have 125 on the phoon)
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putting the gist back into logistics |
Kurfin
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Posted - 2009.09.03 07:31:00 -
[11]
I think all split weapon ships should be given an extra bonus, they would still have the issue of any damage upgrades only working on half their weapons but it would even it up a little.
The trouble with Typhoon is what other bonus would you give it? It works as either a shield or armour tanker, not particularly cap dependant. Maybe a tracking bonus?
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Lindsay Logan
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Posted - 2009.09.03 07:43:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Undertow Latheus
Yes i know this might seem like a bit of a spam thread in light of the Tempest thread now approaching 1,000 replies, but the phoon has its own host of problems and deserves its own thread.
The Typhoon's biggest problem is that it effectively has only one skill bonus. Currently it has two skill bonuses collectively giving it a 25% dps bonus, while mega, baddon, geddon, raven, etc. get the same dps bonus with one skill bonus, and get another helpful skill bonus on top of it. As it stands right now, it would be similar to the Abaddon having one skill bonus giving 25% more dps to four of its turrets, and its second skill bonus giving 25% more dps to the second four turrets.
So obviously the point of the current two bonuses becoming one would be to give it another skill bonus and thus make the ship more effective... But what bonuses?
It can't have large projectile tracking, falloff, or optimal bonus because that would only be helping half of its weapons. Similarly, it can't have a miscellaneous missile bonus such as flight time, velocity, and explosion radius because that would only be boosting half of its weapons.. A few years ago, a speed bonus would have been great, but now it would be a slap in the face.
In my mind, the best candidates are either:
1. Armor Resist (Although it would be unconventional since no other minmatar ships have armor bonuses)
2. Second DPS bonus, making it the true minmatar dps ship of choice.
3rd, And probably my favorite: Drone DPS / HP bonus. It is already the closest thing minmatar has to a drone boat, having 125 Drone Bandwith and 175m3 Drone Bay Capacity. This would highlight this aspect of the phoon and make it considerably better. Personally I would be fine with leaving its drone bay at 175m3 or only raising it slightly, so that the dominix remains the most drone proficient battleship.
This would also play into the ship's role more than a second dps bonus since phoons often forsake half or all of their weapons for neuts / nos and RR, although sometimes they are fit with both torpedoes and autocannons for max dps.
Even after this change it would still face problems like the split weapon upgrades that comes with split weapon systems and that weapon mods are only half as effective as on other battleships, and the immense skill requirements to fly it well, but that can be taken with a grain of salt since its not something that could really be changed, and when determining the effectiveness of ships you dont assume that the pilot sucks at flying it.
Please post any ideas or opinions about the typhoon that you have that you think would be good ways to fix it, as to make a brainstorm of sorts of different ideas to fix the phoon, or just comment on the skill bonus change I proposed. After this thread accumulates a good amount of ideas, an Assembly Hall thread will probably be made with the best ideas in it.
However, this thread is intended to only be about the typhoon in particular, and not about tempests or (large) projectiles, although both of them need help as well, there is already a thread for the pest, which also has lots of proposals about projectiles too.
And yet, its already one of teh best BS's. It even got a huge drone bay, and it can kick asss with loads of neuts and ****. And not to mention RR.
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To mare
Amarr
Advanced Technology
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Posted - 2009.09.03 11:33:00 -
[13]
the only problem of the typhoon is that now is too slow and heavy.
(and the crazy skill time for no real advantage)
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fkingfurious
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Posted - 2009.09.03 11:52:00 -
[14]
The Typhoon is NOT a good BS.
I have never understood why so many people insist on calling it one of the best BS in game when it is quite clearly one of the worst.
Against the other tier 1 BS it is pounded by the Geddon in terms of gang utility. Nothing compares to the huge advantage Scorch gives you when running in a gang. Torps with no range bonus make the ship basically unworkable in RR gangs where the group has to stick inside the 8KM RR bubble and still be able to effectivley engage an enemy fleet. And lets not even get started on the idea of using AC's or fail Cruise instead.
And then ofc the Domi rocks up and batters the Typhoon as well. The extra mid and the bonused rones mean that the Domi is, as everyone is well aware, just about the most versatile ship in Eve. It's RR potential is awesome and sentries give enough DPS at range for the ship to be effective. Solo (on the rare occasion it happens) the neut Domi is still just about unbeatable.
Against any other BS the tier system makes meaningful comparisons difficult, tho to be fair it is a ****e sight better than the Tempest, even with only 1 bonus.
It's a BAD BAD BAD ship and needs fixing.
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Exitar Stormscion
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Posted - 2009.09.03 12:00:00 -
[15]
Phoon is very good t1 BS.
Mortal in body
Eternal in will. |
Cpt Branko
Beyond Divinity Inc
Beyond Virginity
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Posted - 2009.09.03 12:22:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 03/09/2009 12:25:30
Typhoon which ditched the projectile bonus for a drone bonus and had it's shield and armour HP switched around (minor point, but still annoying) would be nothing short of awesome. Possibly too good to be a Minmatar BS however.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Shadowsword
Epsilon Lyr
Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2009.09.03 12:43:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Undertow Latheus
Yes i know this might seem like a bit of a spam thread in light of the Tempest thread now approaching 1,000 replies, but the phoon has its own host of problems and deserves its own thread.
The Typhoon's biggest problem is that it effectively has only one skill bonus. Currently it has two skill bonuses collectively giving it a 25% dps bonus, while mega, baddon, geddon, raven, etc. get the same dps bonus with one skill bonus, and get another helpful skill bonus on top of it. As it stands right now, it would be similar to the Abaddon having one skill bonus giving 25% more dps to four of its turrets, and its second skill bonus giving 25% more dps to the second four turrets.
In the tier1 BS, the typhoon is the only one to have 8 weapons on top of the ability to use 5 heavy drones. That's why the ship is fine with having only one damage bonus in effect.
And don't try to compare with tier2-3 battleships, the price tag isn't the same.
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Draeklore
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Posted - 2009.09.03 12:57:00 -
[18]
I think the Phoon is fine except that you need a billion SP to fly it 
Best change I believe for it would be to change it to a 6 turret and 6 launcher layout. All T1 BS suffer from fitting issues so that's not really a Phoon issue. The split bonuses is also a problem shared by other ships (like the Domi) but guess what these ships' biggest advantage is. They are versatile.
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fuxinos
Caldari
Guys 0f Sarcasm
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Posted - 2009.09.03 14:28:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Draeklore
I think the Phoon is fine except that you need a billion SP to fly it
Best change I believe for it would be to change it to a 6 turret and 6 launcher layout. All T1 BS suffer from fitting issues so that's not really a Phoon issue. The split bonuses is also a problem shared by other ships (like the Domi) but guess what these ships' biggest advantage is. They are versatile.
And the Raven?
A Phoon with 6 Launchers + 125m3 drones + armor tanking would make the Raven obsolete.... some clearly have no clue about balance.
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Draeklore
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Posted - 2009.09.03 14:47:00 -
[20]
Originally by: fuxinos
Originally by: Draeklore
I think the Phoon is fine except that you need a billion SP to fly it
Best change I believe for it would be to change it to a 6 turret and 6 launcher layout. All T1 BS suffer from fitting issues so that's not really a Phoon issue. The split bonuses is also a problem shared by other ships (like the Domi) but guess what these ships' biggest advantage is. They are versatile.
And the Raven?
A Phoon with 6 Launchers + 125m3 drones + armor tanking would make the Raven obsolete.... some clearly have no clue about balance.
Raven still has two bonuses to missiles, more shields than phoon has armor, and can fit damage mods because it shield tanks.
But I will still concede that 5/5 would be more balanced due to the phoon being able to use heavy drones.
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SickSeven
The Undead Righteous Knights
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Posted - 2009.09.03 14:49:00 -
[21]
Personally I think the Typhoon is fine. I think if you really start to change bonuses and slot layouts it's going to become a major balance issue.
The best suggestion I think is to just allow the ship to fit 6x turrets or 6x missles, keep the bonuses and switch the shield/armor HP. Don't mess with fitting or bonuses or drone bay size.
I think if you try to change the Phoon it will lose it's character. Yes it's a pain in the butt for new players, but can be very rewarding for older ones. And if the Tempest and Large Projectiles get fixed, I think that it may be hard to get any more Minmatar love from the Dev's anytime soon after that.
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Seriously Bored
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.09.03 15:16:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Seriously Bored on 03/09/2009 15:17:10
Sorry, but I'd have to agree that there's more important things to fix for Minmatar BSs at this point. Besides the shield/armor swap thing. That's gotta get done.
Right now, the Phoon is basically very cost effective muscle for players who have been around a while. Not what CCP intended, I'm sure...but sadly it's about the best Minmatar BS for anything but station hugging and "sniping."
And if we get our way on Projectiles, we're going to see a lot of whine threads about how the Phoon is overpowered. (Those threads will of course feature 6 damage mod fail fits.)
Did I mention that it's cheap?
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fuxinos
Caldari
Guys 0f Sarcasm
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Posted - 2009.09.03 15:17:00 -
[23]
Edited by: fuxinos on 03/09/2009 15:16:54
Originally by: Draeklore
Originally by: fuxinos
Originally by: Draeklore
I think the Phoon is fine except that you need a billion SP to fly it
Best change I believe for it would be to change it to a 6 turret and 6 launcher layout. All T1 BS suffer from fitting issues so that's not really a Phoon issue. The split bonuses is also a problem shared by other ships (like the Domi) but guess what these ships' biggest advantage is. They are versatile.
And the Raven?
A Phoon with 6 Launchers + 125m3 drones + armor tanking would make the Raven obsolete.... some clearly have no clue about balance.
Raven still has two bonuses to missiles, more shields than phoon has armor, and can fit damage mods because it shield tanks.
But I will still concede that 5/5 would be more balanced due to the phoon being able to use heavy drones.
No, Raven cant use its utility highs, due to low PG and if the 1 launcher is a tread of for a 125/175m3 dronebay, wheres the tread of for that?
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Undertow Latheus
Minmatar
Neo Spartans
Laconian Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.09.03 17:00:00 -
[24]
For anyone comparing the split weapon systems of phoons to domi and vexor, it really isnt the same as having split high slot weapons. If you're flying a DPS phoon with 4 AC's, 4 torps, and 5 ogre's, both of your skill bonuses will be going towards your highslot weapons only receiving 25% more dps, and your ogres will be left unbonused. If you are flying a domi with 6 electron blaster cannons and 5 ogres, then both your weapons will receive a 25% dps bonus, and your drones will receive 50% dps bonus. The Phoon effectively has only one skill bonus. And besides, one of my propositions was to give it a drone bonus.
For anyone saying that its the best minmatar battleship at the moment and a good bs for RRBS fleets, the keyword is minmatar. That's still saying that the phoon is the best out of what's widely considered the worst 3 battleships. But what makes the phoon good for RRBS fleets? Being a swiss army knife and having either 4 or 8 high slots devoted to RR or neuts/nos? Granted, that is a good setup for a RRBS fleet to have as support, but the phoon isnt better at it than any other 8/4/7 slot layout BS. A baddon or a mega could fit the same RR and cap warfare fit as a fleet typhoon and do it better than it due to its better tank and more grid to fit more heavy cap warfare. So what does the typhoon do better than any standard armor battleship?
Overall, yes i know the phoon hull is a decent ship mostly just due to its slot layout compared to the other matari battleships so it can fit the best tank and therefore be the best fleet support ship, but that still doesnt change the fact that it only has one skill bonus. Even if you think its a good ship, do you disagree that its current two skill bonuses could and should be rolled into one?
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Ghostfire
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Posted - 2009.09.03 17:06:00 -
[25]
You're an idiot.
Typhoon has no issues and out performs most things...however like most tier I bs it needs a lot of skill points to make it Great. The fact that it has a split bonus just makes it even more unique.
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Renarla
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Posted - 2009.09.03 17:39:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Roemy Schneider
fixing split weapons would take care of
- nagl
- phoon
- huginn
- lachesis
- eris
- faction scythe (drifter...?)
- lots of faction frigates
probably some more i can't come up with in 10 secs...
Tristan. Lil' guy always gets left out. 
However, on another note, I now have one of those annoying sigs. |
James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.09.03 18:21:00 -
[27]
Number of bonuses is irrelevant. Especially when they're 'just' damage bonuses - What matters is the total amount of damage your ship does.
The Typhoon is the highest damage output subcapital in the game. What more do you want?
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AstroPhobic
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2009.09.03 18:24:00 -
[28]
Whoever said the raven can't use it's utility highs is wrong, you can easily fit 2 medium neuts for anti-tackler goodness. Or 1+ smartie.
I think the phoon is almost fine where it is, but the hp swap has always needed to happen and upping the fittings slightly would make it more accesible and more diverse without really giving a big performance boost.
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AstroPhobic
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2009.09.03 18:37:00 -
[29]
Originally by: James Lyrus
Number of bonuses is irrelevant. Especially when they're 'just' damage bonuses - What matters is the total amount of damage your ship does.
The Typhoon is the highest damage output subcapital in the game. What more do you want?
Only in comedy fits. Your megas, navy megas, ravens, cnrs, and geddons do more real or applied dps.
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Lee Dalton
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2009.09.03 18:48:00 -
[30]
WTB: 5% Damage bonus to Drones per level.
***
You're only as good as your last fight. |
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