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giving the miners some teeth

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mchief117	Posted - 2009.09.14 16:32:00 - [1] ok we all know that there is a invisible wall between .5 and .4 space to miners that 95% of them simple wonÆt pass ( and if youÆre one of those troll that say well get some better support try flying you BS in low sec with no weapons and see how safe you feel) The story Ore executives where having a meeting when they were going over the number of there barges and how many are being destroyed due to pirates. When the call went out to weponizes there platforms. This lasted all of 15 days worth of trials as no matter how they attached them or what systems they added the ships specially designed mining electronics simply could not support full turret class weaponry. After a barge partially exploded killing the test pilot Ore execs called the project off. It was at this time that a scientist was on one of the observation decks watching as the cleanup crews started breaking up the remains of a few ships that could not be brought back into service. He noticed that the crews where using portable cutting lasers to slice cleanly through the hull of the ships. Acquiring one of these devices and dismantling it he found that other than the vacuum device used to siphon off the ore from the rock the laser system was similar to the one used in mining lasers. After a few tries he managed to recreate a crystal in a fashion useable by the strip miner module that could project its beam up to a range of 30K. It also keeps a unique characteristic in that it damaged the hull of a ship directly bypassing the shields and armour completely. This one a few test runs / encounters with pirate has caused many of them to pull out as there monitors showed there ships where being cut into bits. Ore execs where quick in patenting this new crystals use specifically for their mining barges and the strip miners that are used on them In a nut shell -> players who use strip miners can now fire a beam up to a range of 30K that damages the hull of the ship directly with decent damage output Pros vs. cons Pros -Mining barges have a effective weapon against pirates and so donÆt feel like walking targets -Miners will be able to venture father into low sec as they can know defend themselves -Damages hull directly equalling out the hp most ships have as hulls generally donÆt have more than 20000 hull and most barges have between 8000-16000 dependant on skills Cons -Max range of 30K so long range ships can still bite first -Group pirate fleets can still overwhelm a barge and destroy it -Due to the speed of a barge this crystal will generally always be used defensively as barges neither have the maundering speed or tanking ability for true fighting
BeanBagKing Ch3mic4l Warfare Gypsy Nation	Posted - 2009.09.14 19:00:00 - [2] Originally by: mchief117 It also keeps a unique characteristic in that it damaged the hull of a ship directly bypassing the shields and armour completely. No. I'm all for giving miners some teeth, it would make things more interesting :) but being able to bypass shields and armor? hell no, almost nobody hull tanks, if they do then they are bait. Your looking at HP, your forgetting you would be COMPLETELY BYPASSING all active reps, passive tanks, and resists to whatever damage this thing deals. Sure why not for giving miners some kind of weapon to use Absolutely NO for giving them something like this. A miner is supposed to mine, light defenses are ok and resonable, but miners should not be able to take on pirates any more than pirates are able to take on asteroids.
Mike Voidstar	Posted - 2009.09.14 19:03:00 - [3] Edited by: Mike Voidstar on 14/09/2009 19:05:08 I want you to think about this just a little. Picture a cruiser meant to be a gunboat, with a MWD and 6 of these deathrays mounted. They go strait for the hull, so no need to worry about armor or sheilds... Yes, what you propose might not be too bad on a reletivily stationary mining ship, but nothing stops a warship from mounting miners except the laughter and pointing of their peers. Trust me, Miners would not be happy about the results. Want to mine with teeth? Go buy a Dominix, a half dozen cargo expanders, and some combat drones. What you lose in mining efficiency, you gain in muscle.
Wrangler Al Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.09.14 19:10:00 - [4] ^ you know its a good idea when the pirates get scared^ I like the idea, however you dont want to make these weapons too powerfull Since these lazors are designed to eat through rocks they would have no problem with armour/hulls of a ship, however you could make it so that they do 80% to Armour and 20% blead through to hull; so you will have to engage them and remove their shields first with drones. (no pirate uses caldari ships)
Yamichi Wiggin Caldari Eye of Osiris	Posted - 2009.09.14 19:13:00 - [5] Well... The previous poster is way off- show me a cruiser that fits a strip miner. The second poster is dead on. You shouldn't be able to bypass 99.99% of tanks in the game just because you're a miner. What's to stop somebody from getting a gang of hulks together to **** cap ships? I'd do it. I'd do it in a heartbeat. They're cheaper than a HAC and with this tool would be able to fight better. Hulks have super fast locking speeds within their pitiful ranges. Get a scout ship to warp you in at short range, lock 30 of these strip miners on a capital ship and it's dead before it can lock anybody. BUT Miners need some teeth. It's more of a basic game balance problem where the jump from 0.5 to 0.4 is a HUGE leap in safety and while most ships have an answer (T2 haulers, jump freighters, orca/Rorq...) the barges/mining fleet has no tradeoff. If freighter can ditch a chunk of its hold in favor of jump ability and a hauler can ditch some of its hold for speed or warp stabilization and tank, then why not a 2-strip barge with a bigger cargo hold and decent defenses. I know the hulks aren't paper (I have PvP'd in mine successfully) but they are still fairly helpless in low sec. Maybe this is as intended and just there to force people to fly as a fleet in low sec but it seems to be a silly mechanic for it. I would propose a hulk hull with 2 strip miners, a bigger tank, a bigger drone bay (they're gallente after all) and perhaps a damage bonus to drones. To balance it, give it a penalty to mining drone efficiency or something to ensure that it doesn't make up its lost strip miner with mining drones. Perhaps it should have a larger ore hold and be more of the marauder version of the hulk- more tank, more damage, worse mining yield, less need of companions? Just my version of what you're suggesting. ------ Pain is weakness leaving the body. There is no love in fear
Carazon	Posted - 2009.09.14 19:13:00 - [6] Originally by: Mike Voidstar Edited by: Mike Voidstar on 14/09/2009 19:05:08 I want you to think about this just a little. Picture a cruiser meant to be a gunboat, with a MWD and 6 of these deathrays mounted. They go strait for the hull, so no need to worry about armor or sheilds... I wasn't aware you could fit strip miners on a cruiser.
mchief117	Posted - 2009.09.14 19:25:00 - [7] update 1 while barges are technically cruiser class they are the only ships besides a titan who can use strip miners and if your using a titan to mine you don't need this idea 2 this crystal is meant as a scare off weapon , not an offensive one if you can get 20 hulks into a fleet of enemy ships and then burn them down they are afk or real stupid for letting you get that close. as they would know you can bypass the primary defenses 3 the reason it bites through armor and shield is that any pirate be it BS or BC/Cruiser with have a huge tank and if there is no realy threat of losing a ship there just going to go "HAW another mining barge down"
Wrangler Al Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.09.14 19:35:00 - [8] Originally by: Mike Voidstar Edited by: Mike Voidstar on 14/09/2009 19:05:08 I want you to think about this just a little. Picture a cruiser meant to be a gunboat, with a MWD and 6 of these deathrays mounted. They go strait for the hull, so no need to worry about armor or sheilds... Yes, what you propose might not be too bad on a reletivily stationary mining ship, but nothing stops a warship from mounting miners except the laughter and pointing of their peers. Trust me, Miners would not be happy about the results. Want to mine with teeth? Go buy a Dominix, a half dozen cargo expanders, and some combat drones. What you lose in mining efficiency, you gain in muscle. You dont Mine do you?!? ONLY Mining barges can fit strip miners that would use these crystals
Mike Voidstar	Posted - 2009.09.14 19:46:00 - [9] You are right, I don't mine, unless a mission calls for it, and then it's a civilan miner and 5 mining drones. I apologize, I lacked that information and should not have spoken. I am in fact in favor of mining lasers doing damage, I didn't realize that you could not fit stripminers on other ships. However, bypassing sheilds and Armor is a bit overpowered.
jemos Gallente	Posted - 2009.09.14 19:52:00 - [10] Originally by: mchief117 ok we all know that there is a invisible wall between .5 and .4 space I'm sorry, but I stopped reading there. And, also. I laughed. Originally by: FireT If you have capitals..... well for the love of Raptor Pope, use them before they rust away.
Joethelions Caldari Universal Order Utopian Order	Posted - 2009.09.14 20:11:00 - [11] /signed great idea
OSGOD	Posted - 2009.09.15 06:42:00 - [12] dribble m8 thats all it is,miners have teeth just look at the hulk on youtube i LMAO so hard seing that post i even had T.I.M.E the onlt teath miners need are drones i have droppes navy vexor in my hulk even had some lune build cheap mega just to sussy me,tanked him with 14% hull left bye the time concord came and got him with 1 shot ,i like eve the way it is , cept with curent server issues ,if wont to mine in low sec suffer to ur losses been thier done that replacing ships and mods is moe expensive than te palty ore u get before drawing attention of locals long live pirates far as i am concerned
Fullmetal Jackass	Posted - 2009.09.15 07:04:00 - [13] Originally by: Mike Voidstar Edited by: Mike Voidstar on 14/09/2009 19:05:08 I want you to think about this just a little. Picture a cruiser meant to be a gunboat, with a MWD and 6 of these deathrays mounted. They go strait for the hull, so no need to worry about armor or sheilds... Yes, what you propose might not be too bad on a reletivily stationary mining ship, but nothing stops a warship from mounting miners except the laughter and pointing of their peers. Trust me, Miners would not be happy about the results. Want to mine with teeth? Go buy a Dominix, a half dozen cargo expanders, and some combat drones. What you lose in mining efficiency, you gain in muscle. Try fitting strip miners to anything but a barge or exhumer some time. Bypassing the shield and armor is unrealistic. I've always though using the mining lasers as a last resort weapon was a good idea. I mean if they tear the hell out of solid rock, why wouldn't they be effective on a ship? Tracking wouldn't be that much of an issue either I'd think. I mean it's continuous beam, wave it around till you hit the target. Give them a balanced amount of all 4 types of damage, or an entirely different kind of damage. Use ore as ammo if you like (reverse the beam). The miners have a built in tractor beam, add a web effect too maybe. They could do all kinds of stuff with this.
Kara Sharalien	Posted - 2009.09.15 07:28:00 - [14] Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass Use ore as ammo if you like (reverse the beam). thats brilliant! reverse the beam, use any and all ore in hold to do massive kinetic damage at the cost of X many ore per second. you could scale it down for normal mining lasers as well! the Luminare titan: lets pop that *****! http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1175042&page=1
Hrodgar Ortal	Posted - 2009.09.15 07:41:00 - [15] What you need isn't weapons, rather that the ships get better tanks so you can survive for longer than a few sec regardless of faction tank. Basically you need to let hulks etc get a good buffer and at the same time have a decent recharge so you can tank rats and the occasional pirate for long enough so you can align and warp out if you have fitted stabs.
BeanBagKing Ch3mic4l Warfare Gypsy Nation	Posted - 2009.09.15 07:45:00 - [16] BTW, everyone who thinks carebears can't fight back, watch this... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndWUlntJ58U
Resender	Posted - 2009.09.15 08:24:00 - [17] I would say pure luck I on the other hand have never seen ore thiefs in anything smaller then a cruiser before, and even with the right equip and rigs this movie showed a very unlikely scenario if ore thiefs work in group and you do this to 1 of them no way that just gonna send in a single domi
D'rifter Caldari Northern Star Inter-Galactic Industries PROject Alliance	Posted - 2009.09.15 10:42:00 - [18] Originally by: Mike Voidstar However, bypassing sheilds and Armor is a bit overpowered. I agree with this point. Bypassing the tank is a bad idea. However, I would like to see the exhumers in my fleet capable of defending themselves. I haven't read the entire thread yet, so if someone else has proposed something similar, I apologize. Add the defensive mining/strip mining laser capability as a mining command link. It's a command link that would drain massive amounts of cap from the orca/rorqual to overcharge the exhumers (but not barges - miners have to earn the right to kick arse) to pummel shields and armor and hull of attacking pirates. The ability to fight back would expire once the cap of the command ship is drained or the link deactivated. This would limit them to a defensive retreat tactic instead of stand and fight to the death.
Raa Chura Northstar Syndicate Northstar Coalition	Posted - 2009.09.15 10:54:00 - [19] I thought giving miners teeth meant taking support in with you. Aside from missioning, very few things in this game are geared toward solo anything. You take friends with you to haul and guard against npc or you warp out the moment someone else comes in local. A mining barge is dedicated to mining, not self defense. They already went overboard by allowing transports to warp cloaked but that's for another thread. Raa Chura "You can't read loss, you can only feel it.."
D'rifter Caldari Northern Star Inter-Galactic Industries PROject Alliance	Posted - 2009.09.15 11:03:00 - [20] Edited by: D''rifter on 15/09/2009 11:05:00 Your opposing argument (in your first paragraph) has merit for large corps, but for small and medium corps, boredom and real life responsibility has a tendency to rob you of your defensive escorts.
Raa Chura Northstar Syndicate Northstar Coalition	Posted - 2009.09.15 11:08:00 - [21] Originally by: D'rifter Edited by: D''rifter on 15/09/2009 11:05:00 Your opposing argument (in your first paragraph) has merit for large corps, but for small and medium corps, boredom and real life responsibility has a tendency to rob you of your defensive escorts. Well... if you're mining in 0.0 alone, how are you moving the ore anyway? So what's the point of defending yourself if you're mining something you can't take back with you. Mining is done in groups or you do it in a system where you can dock instantly, at which point you can already defend yourself by docking or your friends guard. I'm all for the modules doing damage even though I'm not a miner. I just don't seem them being that much of a defense as the tracking would be 0.0 so you're not going to hit anything anyway. Raa Chura "You can't read loss, you can only feel it.."
D'rifter Caldari Northern Star Inter-Galactic Industries PROject Alliance	Posted - 2009.09.15 11:14:00 - [22] Sounds like we're pretty much in agreement, hence my argument that the ability to fight back should be granted through a mining command link, and as a fighting retreat, not solely granted through the mining laser modules.
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2009.09.15 11:29:00 - [23] Give them the Arbitrator/Vexor drone bonus, problem soved. Get some more ore in if using mining drones and provides more damage if using damage drones. Much better and more elegant solution.
David Grogan Gallente Final Conflict UK	Posted - 2009.09.15 12:15:00 - [24] Edited by: David Grogan on 15/09/2009 12:15:58 Originally by: OSGOD dribble m8 thats all it is,miners have teeth just look at the hulk on youtube i LMAO so hard seing that post i even had T.I.M.E the onlt teath miners need are drones i have droppes navy vexor in my hulk even had some lune build cheap mega just to sussy me,tanked him with 14% hull left bye the time concord came and got him with 1 shot ,i like eve the way it is , cept with curent server issues ,if wont to mine in low sec suffer to ur losses been thier done that replacing ships and mods is moe expensive than te palty & Originally by: BeanBagKing BTW, everyone who thinks carebears can't fight back, watch this... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndWUlntJ58U ccp have nerfed alot of stuff since that video was made SIG: if my message has spelling errors its cos i fail at typing properly :P
Abrazzar	Posted - 2009.09.15 12:19:00 - [25] Miners with teeth are still no match against combat ships unless you throw out the balancing. Best defense for a miner is to not be there when the pirates arrive. Any boost for miner survivability should be related to GTFO tactics and other disappearing acts. Miners with teeth = Pirates beating the teeth out of the miners -------- Ideas for: Mining
Kara Sharalien	Posted - 2009.09.15 13:43:00 - [26] Originally by: Raa Chura I thought giving miners teeth meant taking support in with you. people who have never been in a mining fleet as either defender or miner have no place in this thread. i know you have never been in a real defended mining fleet because if you had, you would know just how hard it is to persuade combat pilots to sit and do nothing for hours so their miner friends can mine away while still being just as vulnerable to getting ganked by two destroyers in under 20 seconds. you dont really understand how this works, do you? the Luminare titan: lets pop that *****! http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1175042&page=1
XXSketchxx Gallente Remote Soviet Industries	Posted - 2009.09.15 14:07:00 - [27] Originally by: Kara Sharalien people who have never been in a mining fleet as either defender or miner have no place in this thread. i know you have never been in a real defended mining fleet because if you had, you would know just how hard it is to persuade combat pilots to sit and do nothing for hours so their miner friends can mine away while still being just as vulnerable to getting ganked by two destroyers in under 20 seconds. So whats your point? Op wants to give miners the ability to fight back and not have defense...Wrong answer. Eve is about cooperation (yes you can do solo stuff, but not when wanting to go after the higher end content). Miners should be relatively vulnerable. There are ways to negate this (rorqual with shield transporters, hulks can fit a pretty mean tank, and can field 5 HH IIs each). Rorqual can also field a reasonable armament. A proper mining fleet shouldn't even need protection if you are watching local/checking scanner. And the rorqual and hulk capabilities provide you with some abilities to fight back should it come to that. But you want to be able to fit for max mining capability and be able to fight off any mean intrusions with a pwnsauce mining laser? Let's be serious here. That idea is just silly. _____________________________________________ -Sketch, Certified Pharmacist Need a Boost?
Cruthensis Gallente Farmer Killers United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2009.09.15 14:15:00 - [28] I started off thinking this idea was dumb, but with a few changes... Make it script based! The script ('mining beam transmogrification' - I don't know) allows the mining laser to hit hull directly, yes. But it also makes optimal quite short and the tracking really terrible. This would prevent mining ships from simply becoming ridiculous pwn-all machines, but with some teamwork/unusual fitting/planning they could be used as a kind of wildcard trap. _________________________ The "Lofty" trick is no more. Fleets are BACK! Coming soon to farmer infestation near you: Fleets of the Willing
BeanBagKing Ch3mic4l Warfare Gypsy Nation	Posted - 2009.09.15 16:05:00 - [29] Originally by: Resender I would say pure luck I on the other hand have never seen ore thiefs in anything smaller then a cruiser before, and even with the right equip and rigs this movie showed a very unlikely scenario if ore thiefs work in group and you do this to 1 of them no way that just gonna send in a single domi I'm not a miner so I have NFI what changes went into the game to affect the setup he had there. However, I would NOT call this pure luck, did you happen to watch the "roll call" at the end? 42 PVP can flipping fitted ships does not equal luck. Personally I don't think there were any nerfs put in place after that video that would change the results from then till now. You may want to change the fit a bit to fix certain things, but the end result is the same, Hulks still have a pretty good tank (from what I understand, and several others have stated so in this thread) and you would need quite a few drone skills. So if your a miner, and you want a weapon, I vote go work on some drone skills and there's your weapon.
Tau Dades Caldari Even End of the Universe	Posted - 2009.09.15 16:09:00 - [30] Originally by: mchief117 update 2 this crystal is meant as a scare off weapon , not an offensive one if you can get 20 hulks into a fleet of enemy ships and then burn them down they are afk or real stupid for letting you get that close. as they would know you can bypass the primary defenses lol first rule of internet spaceships: Pilots will only use ships/modules/contracts/anything in the way it was originally intended.

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