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Flying ZombieJesus
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Posted - 2009.09.15 17:24:00 -
[31]
Give mining barges one extra high slot, and a 99.99% reduction in cpu and PG to doomsday devices.
Seriously, its the only fair way to deal with it. I'm tired of wandering into lowsec to get some tasty rocks and getting shot at by people that don't have the balls to fly a mining barge.
DD's for miners!
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Bar'Ton
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Posted - 2009.09.15 18:32:00 -
[32]
I'm a miner; always have been. I was a miner in Earth & Beyond before I ever heard of Eve. I've been a miner in Eve from day one when they discontinued E & B. So don't be thinkning someone is not a miner because they haven't experienced mining in 0.0 with a fleet of miners. That is simply arrogant presumption.
I must admit I agree that there needs to be a solution to the pirate vs. miner problem but I also have to admit, I don't know what it would be. I don't think anyone in this thread has got the real solution entirely but, I do believe a real solution is forthcoming if we all stick with this thread and ccp listens to us. One person made a lot of sense when he said that the physics of the mining laser should be realistic. If they will cut through an asteroid, what prevents them from cutting through the tank of a ship. As for the type of damage, that should be realistically examined and implemented.
Why is this a game where pirates rule? Why do the social mis-fits get priority treatment and almost exclusive access to the best resources in the game? What's wrong with this picture, ccp?
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Yamichi Wiggin
Caldari
Eye of Osiris
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Posted - 2009.09.15 18:53:00 -
[33]
 Originally by: Bar'Ton
One person made a lot of sense when he said that the physics of the mining laser should be realistic. If they will cut through an asteroid, what prevents them from cutting through the tank of a ship. As for the type of damage, that should be realistically examined and implemented.
Why is this a game where pirates rule? Why do the social mis-fits get priority treatment and almost exclusive access to the best resources in the game? What's wrong with this picture, ccp?
A) for the same reason nuclear missiles, phased plasma projectiles, and relativistic slugs don't go straight to hull... the ships have armor and shields. Now being able to use strip miners on a ship, I'm actually down with... they do their damage at the end of a cycle and if you can get a pirate to sit within your range and NOT kill you for three minutes, maybe he deserves to die... dunno.
B) read a dev blog and quit whining. Pirates don't rule the game nor do they have exclusive access to anything. Pirates rule low sec. Null sec is ruled by alliances who protect their industries. High sec is not terribly friendly to pirates. So... have you actually played Eve?
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Pain is weakness leaving the body.
There is no love in fear |
Kalia Masaer
Rosa Castellum
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Posted - 2009.09.16 05:13:00 -
[34]
In many ways I feel the T1 industrial ships need a tank buff as currently they are paper thin.
So currently with a hulk and covetor with all free slots but one low dedicated to tank.
Opposed to T2 fitted gank rupture with 4 gyros.
None of the ships fiting rigs and all runing T2 drones.
Covetor lasts 21 seconds agains the rupture.
Hulk lasts 44 seconds against he rupture.
Rupture lasts 76.4 seconds against either the rupture or covetor.
The math is fairly obvious the rupture against 3 covetors will for certain destroy the one it points and has a good chance of even of catching a second one if it isn't already aligned. If all three covetors stayed to fight the rupture could kill them all if with only a handful of hitpoints left.
2 hulks against the rupture fair slightly better as if they stay and fight the rupture will kill one hulk but if he wants to go for the second it is almost fifty-fifty who wil survive.
I am not a proponent of making mining ships warships but some form of a more durable mining ship is needed. Something that can be escorted into low sec with at least the tank of a hulk if not more and the mining capabilities similar to a retriever as well as not being quite as prohibitivly expensive as a hulk somthing in the range of 15-30 million.
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Dominar Solon
Gallente
Aliastra
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Posted - 2009.09.16 06:14:00 -
[35]
Your goal is lofty but truly there are plenty of miners that operate in low sec or null with no assist. A Miner is a miner, the ships just dont have the ability to do dmg. I agree the strip miner should be able to f up ships and pull the ore off them but I also think you need be realistic. Font fly what you cant loose and don't go where you cant handle the indigenous pilots.
Sorry I think in general what you want is a poor idea. Good try though.
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Miraqu
Caldari
Marquie-X Corp
Atropos.
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Posted - 2009.09.16 08:21:00 -
[36]
Teeth means watching local and bubbling the gate.
Taking support with you is ineffective at best.
If a Hulk pilot doesn't get out of the belt in time, all support won't help him because regardless of any kind of tank, he will be popped in seconds.
So support currently means reading intel, watching local and possibly bubbling the gate. The only thing that works well at the moment is stuffing the hulks with resistances and having around 5 shield logistics on standby.
Even if you could use the mining beams for defense, you'd be dead long before it would matter at all.
On the other hand I agree that something should be done to buff the miners defenses.
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Bal'Ayle
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Posted - 2009.09.16 13:08:00 -
[37]
this has come up time and time again. as far as im aware this falls into the E-War idea of heat weapons. but strip mining lasers targeting hulls - sure, keep the cycle rate, and then factor in speeds and velocity. when you miss, are they really going to take three mins to kill you? a lucky kill is all this will achieve and its kind of over powered. you will have fleets of tankers shielding mining barges to shoot down POS's
just 3 hulks would be doing direct and considerable damage to the structure of the POS, each capable of equipping 3 of these modified lasers each they will be doing 9 hits. now assuming its to destroy frigates in one or two at most hits because of the cycle time that's roughly 100-200 damage per hit, give or take
so 900-1800 every 3 mins. strait to structure, now that doesn't sound a lot and in truth its not, but a full blown fleet of ten of these at base minimum of 100, will be doing 3000 per tick, strait to structure. a fleet of well tanked procurers can do 1000 strait to hull, a fleet of those alone properly fitted could take out most battleships in seconds.
the problem here is mining barges are just that. structures that move, built for mining, your thinking of them as standard use mining ships they are not, they are niche ships specialised in mining
interceptors are built to be fast and weak, probes; small and stealthy with mid speed. titans and haulers are slow and hard to crack. mining barges and exhumer's, are meant to be deployed safely to extract the most from the least and make quick work of high security space.
it is intended that you would hire protection. or to bring your own when you mine in low sec. if you are clever you can get in and out with a small bit of profit - the large sums you hear about are in policed systems not attainable for the average joe
your measuring your expected haul against unobtainable values and complaining when you cant reach them, barges and exhumer's are for safe space, so make safe.
they cant be jack of all trades masters of mining, why would anyone do anything else?
why not have it so they have permanently fitted guns, that have no optimal but a max range - effective anywhere in-between with more damage the closer they are etc, run off of capacitor energy instead of ammo. and do mediocre damage. enough to kill a frigate when using say ecm drones to slow it down. not enough to be taken seriously as a pvp ship. merely a complementary weapon so they aren't sitting ducks
Or similarly a permanent attachment weapon, that emits a large ECM burst, knocking out all sensors within 35km for roughly 10 seconds using up 55% of capacitor energy so they cant spam it as well as reducing their cargo to say 10% original capacity and expelling the excess in a very very flimsy cargo container that lasts say 10 mins but giving them enough time to escape.
something like this would be better then hull cracking lasers that will miss small objects and turn mining barges into artillery barges wouldn't you say?
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Sjors Boomschors
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Posted - 2009.09.16 13:25:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Sjors Boomschors on 16/09/2009 13:28:10
I like the idea of turning the modulated strip miner in to a weapon by placing a weapon laser crystal in the strip miner fitting.
But it would only be powerful enough to take out a small frigate if necessary.
Question:
Why do you get concorped for shooting a player with a mining laser?
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NurseBob
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Posted - 2009.09.16 13:29:00 -
[39]
This would be mint!
i could go roaming in my hulk, 600dps tank and 5 hammer 2s and and and 3 mega hull strippers 
and i could even go do some mining, or would a skiff do more damage... hmm....
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D'rifter
Caldari
Northern Star Inter-Galactic Industries
PROject Alliance
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Posted - 2009.09.16 13:51:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Bal'Ayle
Or similarly a permanent attachment weapon, that emits a large ECM burst, knocking out all sensors within 35km for roughly 10 seconds using up 55% of capacitor energy so they cant spam it as well as reducing their cargo to say 10% original capacity and expelling the excess in a very very flimsy cargo container that lasts say 10 mins but giving them enough time to escape.
something like this would be better then hull cracking lasers that will miss small objects and turn mining barges into artillery barges wouldn't you say?
I believe a solution like this would be the most realistic and simple - but instead of a permanently affixed weapon, a generous bonus to ewar or specifically ECM Burst.
I'm not sure how interdictors work, but I believe this will still leave the fleet vulnerable to warp bubbles to satiate the bloodthirsty, yes?
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Ovous
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Posted - 2009.09.16 14:45:00 -
[41]
(Bal'Ayle's Alt)
i wanted to have it fixed so there is no hassle of refitting for the burst stuff and so there is no need of skills except what is already required to fly one. basically so there is a big red button that pretty much nullifies the mining trip anyway but gives you the option of flying away with 10% of your haul and at least you get to keep your ship.
with the 55% use of capacitor, it basically means that people attacking you have to use newts or stealth to get in close enough to you that they can quickly lower your cap so you cant activate it. i imagine that using 3 strip miners in unison would lower your cap considerably anyway. so really you just have to be careful you have the cap requirements otherwise they will simply have to newt you to keep you below 55% so you cant fly away.
this means that pirates can still viably get you, but its a nice fall back button in a tight squeeze, And if there good they will eventually get you as you cant warp, warp, warp or you wont be able to activate it from loss of cap. kind of like throwing sand in the eyes of your attacker. 10 seconds is the head start you get. hide swiftly.
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Hatch
Minmatar
4 Marketeers
Rura-Penthe
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Posted - 2009.09.16 15:00:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Hatch on 16/09/2009 15:01:53
the invisible wall for mining in low sec mainly applies to macro miners. if you are afraid of low sec, you probably can't tank the cruiser rats anyway because it would impact your ability to mine with out a tank...
I've had absolutely no problems what so ever mining in .1 through .4. infact, i prefer .1 as i get the better ore with more veld in the belts. so please, stay in high sec and away from my hemorphite and hegbergite.
you obviously have not seen the roaming hulk gank squads. i suggest you go to youtube and search for it. it is quite funny to watch people using their brain and thinking outside of the box; or maybe the vagabond that was killed by a fleet of t1 industrial ships.
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D'rifter
Caldari
Northern Star Inter-Galactic Industries
PROject Alliance
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Posted - 2009.09.16 15:04:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Ovous
(Bal'Ayle's Alt)
i wanted to have it fixed so there is no hassle of refitting for the burst stuff and so there is no need of skills except what is already required to fly one. basically so there is a big red button that pretty much nullifies the mining trip anyway but gives you the option of flying away with 10% of your haul and at least you get to keep your ship.
with the 55% use of capacitor, it basically means that people attacking you have to use newts or stealth to get in close enough to you that they can quickly lower your cap so you cant activate it. i imagine that using 3 strip miners in unison would lower your cap considerably anyway. so really you just have to be careful you have the cap requirements otherwise they will simply have to newt you to keep you below 55% so you cant fly away.
this means that pirates can still viably get you, but its a nice fall back button in a tight squeeze, And if there good they will eventually get you as you cant warp, warp, warp or you wont be able to activate it from loss of cap. kind of like throwing sand in the eyes of your attacker. 10 seconds is the head start you get. hide swiftly.[/quote}
I don't foresee CCP using the permanently affixed weapon for a class of ships, because AFAIK, they never have.
In case you're not familiar with it, a set of 3 strip miners uses roughly 1/3 of a Hulk's capacitor charge, which recharges back 100% before the next cycle begins. My mining alt can completely drain a hulk's cap by manually aborting cycles and then recharge before the end of the next full cycle. (if only more ships were like that) Even if the ECM burst uses 55%, as you suggested, there's still plenty left for a few shield booster cycles and a GTFO.
I'd gladly sacrifice a mid slot for a bonused ECM Burst
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Bar'Ton
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Posted - 2009.10.08 21:56:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Bar''Ton on 08/10/2009 22:05:35
A) I've been playing Eve since 2004 (if you consider that as having played Eve). Just for the record, none of the pirates I know will sit there receiving damage for the full cycle of a mining laser or any other period of time. Pirates don't do that - they blow you away NOW! If miners are to have "teeth" - they need to byte NOW, not when a ridiculous cycle finishes.
B) In my previous post I said pirates have "almost" exclusive access - not exclusive access and they most certainly do rule 0.4 and below where all the good mins are. Try mining there alone and see how fast you get your ship blown to hell for no reason at all. They simply like to see things blow up!
C) I said nothing about anything going straight to hull - I said the damage should be appropriate. It should be made consistent with the rest of the game which going straight to hull is not.
Originally by: Yamichi Wiggin
Originally by: Bar'Ton
One person made a lot of sense when he said that the physics of the mining laser should be realistic. If they will cut through an asteroid, what prevents them from cutting through the tank of a ship. As for the type of damage, that should be realistically examined and implemented.
Why is this a game where pirates rule? Why do the social mis-fits get priority treatment and almost exclusive access to the best resources in the game? What's wrong with this picture, ccp?
A) for the same reason nuclear missiles, phased plasma projectiles, and relativistic slugs don't go straight to hull... the ships have armor and shields. Now being able to use strip miners on a ship, I'm actually down with... they do their damage at the end of a cycle and if you can get a pirate to sit within your range and NOT kill you for three minutes, maybe he deserves to die... dunno.
B) read a dev blog and quit whining. Pirates don't rule the game nor do they have exclusive access to anything. Pirates rule low sec. Null sec is ruled by alliances who protect their industries. High sec is not terribly friendly to pirates. So... have you actually played Eve?
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Markus Reese
Caldari
Lorentzian Expeditionaries
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Posted - 2009.10.08 23:14:00 -
[45]
I like the idea of some sort of reversal beam, using your ore to deal damage, kinda cool and novel
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CientificaLoca
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Posted - 2009.10.09 12:53:00 -
[46]
My corp expert when mining are killed alot pirate , never try atack a 2 hulk when had warp scramble and 5 t2 drones 1 hulk and other 5 emm drones.
Target = Unable to warp to target and slowed....... + 5 drones killing it.
And the bs that try out to kill it . My corp take a little extra of 2 bs that come from 5 system (no are saying that come un few sec. and blow up.
When go to dangerous zone sacrifice a EMMC drones to disrump the radar and targeting of my attacker and run fast.
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Robert Caldera
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Posted - 2009.10.09 13:20:00 -
[47]
a miner is always a victim for pirates and roaming gangs, how many teeths they have, they will never(and should not) have any chance against combat ships.
Either your buddies cover your mining op, you manage to GTFO or you're dead.
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Moleclown
Retribution. Inc.
REIGN Alliance
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Posted - 2009.10.09 13:22:00 -
[48]
This is idea isn't going to work, pirates have ships that are specialized in hunting down and killing ships like miners. A miner which specializes in mining shouldn't be able to fight off any threat that comes it's way, you either do they whole thing where you fit your hulk out specifically to fight off pirates, or you give it a gun or some drones to fight off maybe a noob in a frig who wants an easy kill. Anything else then that is silly, why not give stealth bombers strip miners while we're at it. If you don't like pirates go back to hi-sec.
Or become a pirate your self and kill all the other pirates enough until they quit the game so you can mine in peace :P
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Lucastria
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Posted - 2009.10.18 22:00:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Lucastria on 18/10/2009 22:02:42
Someone stated about making it realistic.
Well if we do that, what kind of company would make a mining ship that didnt have some kind of defensive mechanism, whatever it maybe. In the real world they would go bust. Even tankers in the pirate infested waters on this planet have defensive systems.
As for the youtube clips i never pay much attention to them as they can be easily set up to make it look however they want. Seen too many that were rigged one way or the other by a group of mates or someones alts. That said have seen hulks take down things that they really had no right to, only to find out the thing they killed had a poor fit or just badly flown.
Agree a exhumer should not be technically be able to kill a out an out combat ship but this game is all about thinking outside the box.
As many have said why is it a mining laser can eat a huge rock but not do damage to a ship. The idea of fitting a weapon crystal is a good idea but maybe only specific ones like medium/small.
No easy solution thats for sure.
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Auric Megastryke
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Posted - 2009.10.21 01:13:00 -
[50]
How about this easy solution? CCP - fix the default shield and armor of the hulk and mackinaw so that they start out with a reasonable tank! The ORE syndicate ought to be ashamed of their mining barge designs. "Better able to handle the dangers of deep space" - what a joke.
Hulk: cost of a Battleship, mass = 3 x Battlecruiser, shield and armor of a punk T1 cruiser. No wonder it gets popped instantly in 0.0, and is easy meat for the hisec gank squad. This Tech 2 version of the Covetor actually comes with 237 points LESS armor than the T1 version, which makes me think that the ORE syndicates design team must be taking payoffs from pirate factions.
The best fix for this is also the simplest - the Hulk and Mackinaw should have their shield and armor points doubled (which brings it up just shy of the defaults for the battlecruisers). Instead of mounting offensive turrets, they should have to rely on their drones for defense. Accordingly, to buff their defensive capability, they need a larger drone bay (125M3) and bandwidth sufficient for them to deploy large drones (5 sentries is 125M3). This gives them enough tank and DPS to at least mount a credible defense without making them much of an offensive threat.
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Lo KeTral
Amarr
Ravenous Pathogen
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Posted - 2009.10.22 16:26:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Lo KeTral on 22/10/2009 16:27:21
I`d rather see my strippers mine an nme`s cap away continuously as opposed to destroy their ship. That way they don`t lose anything, but they get dead in the water REAL quick. And as we all know, no cap = no weapons, no shields, nothing except warp out.
Why do people play Amarr? Because unlike the other races, Amarr characters are much more difficult to play. |
mchief117
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Posted - 2009.10.22 16:39:00 -
[52]
i would like to point out that the main point of this thread was to give miners some teeth. i mean it has already been said that we use lasers that are hot enough to melt solid rock into vapor and that requires temperatures far in excess of the temperatures required for melting metallics. And while yes a dedicated pirate fleet should be able to take out any hulk/any other mining barge class. a single pirate should not be able to bring a full operation to a halt simple cause he has guns. if you take any mining equipment that they have these days or in yonder past They make excellent weapons . the mining pick for example while simple can Pearce armor if it hits right. and these days we have machines that if properly used could rip a tank in half.
as as i belive was poster some where else just because your ships is not made of rack does not mean i cant burn parts of it off.
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Jugon
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Posted - 2009.10.23 00:13:00 -
[53]
Miners don't need Teeth ... They need better defenses so they aren't paper thin targets that people laugh at... I've seen the Youtubes on Hulks doing PVP ... and I agree with others that the chance of them being Real combat situations is unlikely and that they were rigged fights...
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2009.10.23 02:42:00 -
[54]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 23/10/2009 02:43:48
You know what! GREAT IDEA! Now, it just has to trade damage for ore at a 1-to-1 basis. So I'm seeing about maaaaybe 2000 "structure alpha" every 3 minutes. Basically, useless.
-Liang
Ed: I also want to point out that bypassing all defenses by going straight to structure is ridiculously overpowered.
--
Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
www.kwikdeath.org |
AsheraII
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Posted - 2009.10.24 06:26:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 23/10/2009 02:43:48
You know what! GREAT IDEA! Now, it just has to trade damage for ore at a 1-to-1 basis. So I'm seeing about maaaaybe 2000 "structure alpha" every 3 minutes. Basically, useless.
-Liang
Ed: I also want to point out that bypassing all defenses by going straight to structure is ridiculously overpowered.
Bypassing defenses to directly damage hulls is indeed way overpowered. As odd as it might sound right now, it'd result in fleets of miningbarges to take down POSses and the like. Which I doubt would be an intended mechanic.
I'd see more in a laser which acts similar to standard lasers, but with some serious drawbacks, like
-default crystals (so only 1 type of damage)
-slow tracking
-mediocre damage (needs overloading to put it on-par with non-overloading standard lasers)
-No skill/ship bonusses applying to them for damage output.
The reasons for this being fairly simple: mining ships and equipment should not replace fighting ships or equipment, *ever*. The fighting capabilities of a miningship should be far below the capabilities of a combat vessel of similar class. Otherwise, there'd be no reason not to give standard weaponry the ability to mine to a comparable degree as well, just for ballancing purposes, and I don't think that would be something to look forward to. (mining with railguns? wtf?)
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Zahorite
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Posted - 2009.10.24 06:45:00 -
[56]
Edited by: Zahorite on 24/10/2009 06:49:25
Perhaps if we just allowed mining laser's to actually do damage. They are setup to take apart astroids, but that process should still do damage to a ship, even the shield could be damaged.
Just make it Thermal energy, mining laser's definitly aren't EM, Explosive, or Kinetic. It shouldn't be a large amount of damage, but it should be enough that say a Hulk stands a good chance one on one against a frigate and probably be in a fair fight against a lone destroyer. This would mean that groups of miner's would have a greater defense, say three or four hulks could even take on a BC or BS.
In addition I'd suggest having a charge crystal that could be added to the mining laser's that would increase the amount of thermal damage they could do and possibly even change it to EM damage to take out shields. This would take additional training for miner's maybe a lvl 5 mining upgrades, and would need to be bought and carried around, however it would be useful for them. Roughly this would put say a Hulk on a fair fighting level with a cruiser.
Of course since Hulk's are worth roughly 100m (last I checked) they would never be near as cost effective or as good at fighting as buying a Battlecruiser or Battleship at roughly the same price. Even a battle Hulk with the ability to use mining lasers for damage wouldn't stand a chance one on one against a battleship.
The other option would of course just be a specially designed mining ship for low sec or null sec mining. It would have higher defense and a bit of power behind it but also be less effective at mining, even if it was just outfitted for mining.
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Lo KeTral
Amarr
Ravenous Pathogen
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Posted - 2009.11.07 17:03:00 -
[57]
I`ll say it AGAIN, just have it able to mine an enemies cap.
Why do people play Amarr? Because unlike the other races, Amarr characters are much more difficult to play. |
James Tritanius
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Posted - 2009.11.07 18:04:00 -
[58]
So you want a solopwnmobile that can mine at full yield while being able to destroy specific pvp-fit frigates and cruisers? That doesn't seem overpowered at all. 
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Jugon
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Posted - 2009.11.07 18:27:00 -
[59]
The Problem isn't a miners ability to do dmg , it is survive damage. A hulk fitted for tanking can reach 97 - 100 (maybe 107) DPS tank ability, using T2 Mods and rigged, with the only possibility of higher than that in being spending a ton of ISK on Named Modules.
97 - 100 DPS , can easily be obtained by any mediocre rigged Combat ship, and with a properly rigged Combat ship hitting 500 - 650+ DPS, a Mining ship is pretty much SOL.
In order to make "giving miners" teeth work, the DPS would have be to be insanely nuts in order to make a PVP player think before attempting to kill a Mining Ship... and a mining Cycle with Strip miners is a full 3 minutes. No PVP player is gonna stick around for 3 minutes waiting for a cycle to finish.... If anything they would warp out before the cycle finished , and then warp back in(if the miner was stupid enough to stay there when they warped out). And the Gank squads would go from Solo to Duo's and the pilots just cycle in and out until the Miner is dead.
T1 Mining Barges: Need to be given slightly better resistances, and another Mid slot (Not much of a boost, but a boost, they are T1 after all)
T2 Mining Barges : need to be given MUCH better resistances than what they have, and the cap / cpu / and power grid to be able to fit Medium Reps (Skiff and Mack), and Large reps (Hulk), or whatever is required to increase their EHP so that they aren't as soft. They don't need to be made invincible, but they do need to be made so that properly fitted they are able to withstand a fight long enough for Reinforcements to arrive from at least 2 jumps away.
And if you truly think that Miners do need more teeth (instead of or a long side better tankability) , T2 mining drone bays , need to be increased from 50m3 to 125m3 , and drone bandwith from 50m3 to 125m3. This would allow the Miner the option of fielding Heavy Drones, which would not only add "More Teeth" to the miner, but would mean that a properly fitted mining ship would be able to kill Low Sec and 0 Sec NPC Rats.
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Harkwyth Mist
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2009.11.07 18:36:00 -
[60]
Miners already have teeth ..
they are called Combat Drones
you may even be suprised to hear that you can fit Shield Modules to your shiny new Exhumer !!!!!
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