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The Cuckoo
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Posted - 2009.09.15 11:36:00 -
[1]
I've never known such utter ignorance and arrogance from a games company, as I have from CCP in regards to the directional scanner.
The "claim" was that the two second delay was to fix lag issues with the scanner. While technically true, it was in fact to stop macro scanning. So how does CCP respond? Do they seek to ban those people using macros? Do they work hard to find a solution that will prevent the exploit without compromising gameplay? Do they find a way to detect macro programs or other known exploit programs from being used with Eve? The answer to all those questions is a rather lame no! Instead they just go for the laziest fix they can think of, and whack in an unannounced, untested, and terribly implemented "fix" (sic). A two second delay between scans, and a highly irritating pop-up.
Understandably, the many people who use the Directional scanner are furious at this. It completely removes the ability to quickly scan down any targets in a system with the D-Scanner, and makes the whole experience incredibly frustrating. Literally thousands of players have joined in the protest on the threads linked below, in a desperate attempt to even have their frustration acknowledged on this 54 page threadnaught.
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1154904&page=1
Even CCP's response to the threads has been distinctly lame. This is really all you have to say in response?
 Originally by: Zastrow J
yo the CSM asked ccp about this for you guys and they replied that the directional scanner puts a huge load on the server and spamclicking it was creating lag. You'll have to start using long range probes instead of an inty
I can't believe this disrespectful and arrogant response. It's clear CCP really couldn't give a ****. I for one will continue to complain about this ludicrous "fix", and I'd really love to know why CCP has chosen to simply give their loyal player base the finger. Why they can't even find the time of day to properly address what is to my knowledge one of (if not) the biggest responses the EVE community has ever put together. How can you be so completely ignorant and arrogant CCP?
I'd really like to know.
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Midge Mo'yb
Antares Shipyards
Vanguard.
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Posted - 2009.09.15 11:39:00 -
[2]
CMN
whilst it does annoy me, i have adapted and now have no issue finding stoof.
its actually good in some respects no more spamming the scanner ratting in your raven, and before you know it theres an inty on grid - ninja!
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Aurora Nyx
Caldari
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2009.09.15 11:41:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Aurora Nyx on 15/09/2009 11:41:16
The delay means that the hunters among us will now catch at least some of these macro miners before their scan spots us. Thats good. The delay also means that the server undergoes less stress. Thats good. The delay means that yet again we have to adapt or die. Thats good.
Nope, can't see anything bad about the change.
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The Cuckoo
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Posted - 2009.09.15 11:43:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Midge Mo'yb
CMN
whilst it does annoy me, i have adapted and now have no issue finding stoof.
its actually good in some respects no more spamming the scanner ratting in your raven, and before you know it theres an inty on grid - ninja!
That's exactly what people like yourself fail to understand. No one spams the scanner, I have NEVER spammed it, what would be the point? It's simply a matter of changing the degree it scans at quickly to pin-point your target. This cannot be done quickly or to any degree of satisfaction now.
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Horza Gelian
Galactic Shipyards Inc
Huzzah Federation
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Posted - 2009.09.15 11:45:00 -
[5]
If you can't find them because of a 2s delay, you were never going to find them. Though I guess your too indignant to understand that right?
Oh and /tinfoil
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MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.09.15 11:47:00 -
[6]
FFS, adapt or die already.
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Midge Mo'yb
Antares Shipyards
Vanguard.
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Posted - 2009.09.15 11:50:00 -
[7]
Originally by: The Cuckoo
Originally by: Midge Mo'yb
CMN
whilst it does annoy me, i have adapted and now have no issue finding stoof.
its actually good in some respects no more spamming the scanner ratting in your raven, and before you know it theres an inty on grid - ninja!
That's exactly what people like yourself fail to understand. No one spams the scanner, I have NEVER spammed it, what would be the point? It's simply a matter of changing the degree it scans at quickly to pin-point your target. This cannot be done quickly or to any degree of satisfaction now.
then you suck at scanning, it takes 4 seconds to pinpoint something...
90-60-30/15 go fish.
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Terazuk
Amarr
Rogen's Heroes
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Posted - 2009.09.15 11:56:00 -
[8]
I'm calling shenanigans on this one. Perhaps someone can score this troll for me, I'm a little unclear on the criteria.
Fortes Fortuna Adiuvat
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The Cuckoo
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Posted - 2009.09.15 11:59:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Horza Gelian
If you can't find them because of a 2s delay, you were never going to find them. Though I guess your too indignant to understand that right?
Oh and /tinfoil
Are you an idiot? Read the post, that's not the complaint. The complaint is that this "fix" is annoying and frustrating, and a cheap and lazy fix. Only noobs and bears fail to appreciate this.
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DerArt1st
DEFCON.
The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.09.15 12:03:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Midge Mo'yb
Originally by: The Cuckoo
Originally by: Midge Mo'yb
CMN
whilst it does annoy me, i have adapted and now have no issue finding stoof.
its actually good in some respects no more spamming the scanner ratting in your raven, and before you know it theres an inty on grid - ninja!
That's exactly what people like yourself fail to understand. No one spams the scanner, I have NEVER spammed it, what would be the point? It's simply a matter of changing the degree it scans at quickly to pin-point your target. This cannot be done quickly or to any degree of satisfaction now.
then you suck at scanning, it takes 4 seconds to pinpoint something...
90-60-30/15 go fish.
No u suck at it. Its more like 90¦ scan + waiting 2 sec. for the scantimer, 60¦ scan + waiting 2 sec. for the scantimer, 30¦ scan + waiting 2 sec. for the scantimer, 15¦ scan + waiting 2 sec. for the scantimer... and if the objects are close: 5¦ and if its on the other object > again wait 2 sec. for the scantimer. And that just sucks.
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The Cuckoo
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Posted - 2009.09.15 12:05:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Aurora Nyx
Edited by: Aurora Nyx on 15/09/2009 11:41:16
The delay means that the hunters among us will now catch at least some of these macro miners before their scan spots us.
Originally by: Midge Mo'yb
it takes 4 seconds to pinpoint something...
Obvious lies are obvious.
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Kombat PL
Beach Boys
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.09.15 12:11:00 -
[12]
There is over 1200 supports in the assembly hall thread about removing this delay atm.
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1154904
I really can't understand why CCP won't listen to player base in such important matter.
This is not, as some would have though (including CCP Devs it seems), minor tweak.
It has a HUGE impact on game mechanics, and pvp experience opportunities.
Furthermore I personally can't see the increase in server performance after this horrible change has been implemented, neither are many of my friends. But even if there was very good need to limit directional scanner, there were TONS of ways to implement this change better, for instance, disable scan button for a short time or limit scans per minute or other time frame.
CCP: Please listen to players and revert or re-implement this change, so it doesn't limit functionality of Your product!
And to all those 'adapt or die' whiners: there is nothing to adapt this time.
You can't scan ratters / gather fast intel any other way. So You can't really adapt to something by not doing it can You?
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Butzewutze
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Posted - 2009.09.15 12:24:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Kombat PL
I really can't understand why CCP won't listen to player base
Oh i can help you out with that. Because they dont care about your oppinion as long as you are paying them.
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Suas
Perkone
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Posted - 2009.09.15 12:25:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Aurora Nyx
Edited by: Aurora Nyx on 15/09/2009 11:41:16
The delay means that the hunters among us will now catch at least some of these macro miners before their scan spots us. Thats good. The delay also means that the server undergoes less stress. Thats good. The delay means that yet again we have to adapt or die. Thats good.
Nope, can't see anything bad about the change.
You are incompetent. Please don't ever talk again.
_________________________
HELLO! My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. PREPARE TO DIE! |
Kravick Drasani
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Posted - 2009.09.15 12:30:00 -
[15]
I had no problems using the scanner before. I have no problems using the scanner now. Stop ****ing crying you big babies. Adapt or die.
-
Originally by: Rilwar
If you want to nag on warp speed, how about the question of "Why does my Crow manage to go 9.5AU/s for 2 seconds during a 9AU jump?"
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Myleena
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Posted - 2009.09.15 12:45:00 -
[16]
If CCP don't care about it why make a thread about it? To inform them that they don't care? If they don't care I think they probably already know they don't. If they do they care I think they probably don't care about this thread.
Either way I fail to see the point of this.
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Grez
Neo Spartans
Laconian Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.09.15 12:56:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Kombat PL
There is over 1200 supports in the assembly hall thread about removing this delay atm.
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1154904
I really can't understand why CCP won't listen to player base in such important matter.
This is not, as some would have though (including CCP Devs it seems), minor tweak.
It has a HUGE impact on game mechanics, and pvp experience opportunities.
Furthermore I personally can't see the increase in server performance after this horrible change has been implemented, neither are many of my friends. But even if there was very good need to limit directional scanner, there were TONS of ways to implement this change better, for instance, disable scan button for a short time or limit scans per minute or other time frame.
CCP: Please listen to players and revert or re-implement this change, so it doesn't limit functionality of Your product!
And to all those 'adapt or die' whiners: there is nothing to adapt this time.
You can't scan ratters / gather fast intel any other way. So You can't really adapt to something by not doing it can You?
They won't listen because technically, it's doing good. Less CPU usage means they can put those cycles to good use in other areas. It's a bit of a ****ty change, but it does A LOT of good.
---
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Cadde
Gallente
FireworX
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Posted - 2009.09.15 12:59:00 -
[18]
If CCP made this change to stop macro scanners from using macros they failed from the start.
It doesn't make one bit of difference if there's a 0 second delay or a 1 minute delay because a macro can be set to hit scan after 0.0001, 1.0001, 2.0001 ... 23 days, 14 hours, 3 minutes and 30.0001 seconds, all the time!
While those who doesn't use macros will have problems with this change, macro runners will just keep scanning at a set delay and find you before you find them.
THAT, is also why the OP is wrong about this change being because of macros. It would take the collective dumbness of many people to miss this point.
It's obvious that the only way to stop macros is through monitoring activities!
At first you monitor some elements, if a possible macro runner raises the alarm then he is monitored even more closely. When there is proof without a doubt he is running a macro then he is banned.
But no, changing the scan time to 2 secs will not stop a macro runner. It was clearly done for performance reasons to stop a fleet of 100+ pilots to hit their scan button 10 times per second during standoffs. Be it to purposely lag the server or just get that 0.1 second "edge" on the other team.
My opinions belong to me, you can't have them!
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Heroldyn
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Posted - 2009.09.15 13:07:00 -
[19]
the constant adding of new artificial delays to the game is a very bad approach.
if spamming the scanner button creates lag, ccp should:
1) upgrade the server-farm with new hardware
2) redesign the scanner code, so that it runs more efficient and doesnt create that much of a lag.
scanning was fine all theese years and now suddenly it creates so much lag that they need to add a delay to it ? really... ? how is that ? why wasnt it creating much lag say a year ago ? or was it, but there were less players and thus more ressources to cope with it ?
theese are the questions that the csm should have asked the devs btw.
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Vysnaite
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Posted - 2009.09.15 13:25:00 -
[20]
Adapt or die.
Yes, the tears are very tasty and I grow stronger every minute.
lol @ people who cant pvp without spamming scanner.
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Heroldyn
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Posted - 2009.09.15 13:52:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Vysnaite
Adapt or die.
Yes, the tears are very tasty and I grow stronger every minute.
lol @ people who cant pvp without spamming scanner.
lol @ people that do not grasp the greater shema of things.
this is not about if people need to scan every 2 seconds or not, but rather about how ccp 'fixes' problems by throwing delay timers over them. its like you notice you got skin cancer and then decide to cover it up with patches.
the 'fix' for the communicated issue (lag), is to overhaul the inefficient code that causes the lag and to make sure that hardware-wise there is enough head room for stuff not to cause imediate lag.
you might find it funny this time, but wait for the next thing they add a delay to. maybe that time you'll be affected too.
and btw, dont tell me you have never cursed over the ship-changing delay.
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Vysnaite
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Posted - 2009.09.15 14:21:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Heroldyn
Originally by: Vysnaite
Adapt or die.
Yes, the tears are very tasty and I grow stronger every minute.
lol @ people who cant pvp without spamming scanner.
lol @ people that do not grasp the greater shema of things.
this is not about if people need to scan every 2 seconds or not, but rather about how ccp 'fixes' problems by throwing delay timers over them. its like you notice you got skin cancer and then decide to cover it up with patches.
the 'fix' for the communicated issue (lag), is to overhaul the inefficient code that causes the lag and to make sure that hardware-wise there is enough head room for stuff not to cause imediate lag.
you might find it funny this time, but wait for the next thing they add a delay to. maybe that time you'll be affected too.
and btw, dont tell me you have never cursed over the ship-changing delay.
Yes I did curse about the delay of session change. But now I accept it, as "normal". As the vast majority of people in the world, everyone tend to chose the easiest and cheapest ways for problem solving. Business does the same - its much cheaper to add 2 sec delay, then spend thousands on hardware improvement or even rewriting the code (this is time consuming as well), knowing that it will only reduce the lag created by players, that whine about it later anyway. From financial perspective its much cheaper sollution (and vast majority of people who whine about how CCP solved this problem, do same "type" of decisions on every day basis).
Honestly I really do not care that much, and I always avoided posting about this topic, since I believe that it will not be removed (perhaps reduced and tweaked) and after a month or two people will start to accept it - there have been numerous "changes" or "nerfs" - missiles, flacon, speed change and people whined about, and others didnt because they were not affected - thye made fun of the whiners. Now it has affected new players and they do the same whining, that they used mock others for. Ironic?
So overall this is a trend of "game mechanic changes" throughout history of EVE, and I find it sad that most people don't notice it and still act as if it's something "new" and they are hurt badly, world is unfair, their sollution/logic is better etc.
Yes, they could have improved hardware, but they chose the easier solution - I'm not defending CCP, just making an observation. This is cheapest sollution, and do you think they care much if players whine 5% more?
Now excuse me, I have to return to trading, so I can make isk, so I can lose more stuff in crazy adventures in the world of eve.
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MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.09.15 14:26:00 -
[23]
why hasnt the waaahmbulance arrived here yet?
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Sun Clausewitz
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Posted - 2009.09.15 14:28:00 -
[24]
Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2
FFS, adapt or die already.
THIS!!!!
Pick Three:
Caldari/PVP/Solo/Success |
Durzel
The Xenodus Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.09.15 14:28:00 -
[25]
Most of the people who complain about this (and other stuff) don't do themselves any favours by being so melodramatic about it.
People were saying it would be the "death of PvP", how it was "yet another concession towards consensual PvP", etc blah blah yet the killboards around the net still show thousands of ships being blown up, the World keeps spinning, etc.
You talk about arrogance whilst unironically acting like your opinion is immutably "right".
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Blane Xero
Amarr
The Firestorm Cartel
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Posted - 2009.09.15 14:33:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Grez
Originally by: Kombat PL
There is over 1200 supports in the assembly hall thread about removing this delay atm.
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1154904
I really can't understand why CCP won't listen to player base in such important matter.
This is not, as some would have though (including CCP Devs it seems), minor tweak.
It has a HUGE impact on game mechanics, and pvp experience opportunities.
Furthermore I personally can't see the increase in server performance after this horrible change has been implemented, neither are many of my friends. But even if there was very good need to limit directional scanner, there were TONS of ways to implement this change better, for instance, disable scan button for a short time or limit scans per minute or other time frame.
CCP: Please listen to players and revert or re-implement this change, so it doesn't limit functionality of Your product!
And to all those 'adapt or die' whiners: there is nothing to adapt this time.
You can't scan ratters / gather fast intel any other way. So You can't really adapt to something by not doing it can You?
They won't listen because technically, it's doing good. Less CPU usage means they can put those cycles to good use in other areas. It's a bit of a ****ty change, but it does A LOT of good.
Server has died twice since apoc 1.5.1 and it was still laggy as ever where it counted after Apoc 1.5
Where did those "Precious CPU cycles go"? I haven't seen jack all improvement over lag since "Spamscanning" disappeared. Its only harder to find people and harder to catch those 5 second probes on your scans.
_____________________________________
Haruhiist since December 2008
Originally by: CCP Fallout
:facepalm:
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Scurvy Pestilential
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Posted - 2009.09.15 14:37:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Scurvy Pestilential on 15/09/2009 14:37:44
Originally by: Durzel
Most of the people who complain about this (and other stuff) don't do themselves any favours by being so melodramatic about it.
People were saying it would be the "death of PvP", how it was "yet another concession towards consensual PvP", etc blah blah yet the killboards around the net still show thousands of ships being blown up, the World keeps spinning, etc.
You talk about arrogance whilst unironically acting like your opinion is immutably "right".
So you think it's fine for CCP to just simply ignore its player base even when it speaks out massively against a change? I'm sorry you bend over so easily, but not everyone is sucker like you.
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Krystal Vernet
Minmatar
Gradient
Electus Matari
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Posted - 2009.09.15 15:05:00 -
[28]
It was in the patch notes before the patch hit. No, it wasn't announced with fanfare and trumpets, but if you read the patch notes, it wouldn't have surprised you when you logged in after patch day.
You're making this issue appear entirely larger than it really is. PvP is still quite alive and well, solo, small gang, or larger. The scanner was and is just an aid in finding a fight, and while the timer is annoying (the pop-up even more so), it's not the death knell for pvp that you people seem to think it is.
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Jarna
Amarr
Exhumer Industries
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Posted - 2009.09.15 15:13:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Vysnaite
Yes I did curse about the delay of session change. But now I accept it, as "normal". As the vast majority of people in the world, everyone tend to chose the easiest and cheapest ways for problem solving. Business does the same - its much cheaper to add 2 sec delay, then spend thousands on hardware improvement or even rewriting the code (this is time consuming as well), knowing that it will only reduce the lag created by players, that whine about it later anyway. From financial perspective its much cheaper sollution (and vast majority of people who whine about how CCP solved this problem, do same "type" of decisions on every day basis).
Honestly I really do not care that much, and I always avoided posting about this topic, since I believe that it will not be removed (perhaps reduced and tweaked) and after a month or two people will start to accept it - there have been numerous "changes" or "nerfs" - missiles, flacon, speed change and people whined about, and others didnt because they were not affected - thye made fun of the whiners. Now it has affected new players and they do the same whining, that they used mock others for. Ironic?
So overall this is a trend of "game mechanic changes" throughout history of EVE, and I find it sad that most people don't notice it and still act as if it's something "new" and they are hurt badly, world is unfair, their sollution/logic is better etc.
Yes, they could have improved hardware, but they chose the easier solution - I'm not defending CCP, just making an observation. This is cheapest sollution, and do you think they care much if players whine 5% more?
Now excuse me, I have to return to trading, so I can make isk, so I can lose more stuff in crazy adventures in the world of eve.
You don't get better by patching problems. CCP will never get better at coding by simply creating a timer for everything that causes a problem. CCP has a great game here, but they are horrible coders. I'm not saying I'm better, but I am a programmer, in a different field so I don't know game coding, but I can also see from how other companies react to similar problems, that CCP handles them unconventionally. They suck at coding and instead of fixing the problems they create, they just try to cover them up. Eventually, they will have a bloated code base that in and of itself causes lag. Timers don't fix everything. It just keeps inefficient code from being run from every half second to every 2 seconds. As soon as the population gets so big that the timer doesn't work again, they will have to increase the timer again. By fixing the core of the problem, they could eliminate the issue once and for all.
Simply put, CCP is one of the laziest companies I've seen. Don't get me wrong EVE is a good game and I love it, but that doesn't mean CCP is the God of gaming. They are shortchanging themselves and stunting the awesomeness that EVE could be by just being a company that tries to "patch" things instead of actually "fix" things.
I've been saying this for years: If CCP would stop worrying so hard about new content and simply take 6 months or so to actually fix all the coding problems they have, EVE would be awesome. They could alleviate much of the server load by getting more efficient code in there.
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Durzel
The Xenodus Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.09.15 15:18:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Scurvy Pestilential
Edited by: Scurvy Pestilential on 15/09/2009 14:37:44
Originally by: Durzel
Most of the people who complain about this (and other stuff) don't do themselves any favours by being so melodramatic about it.
People were saying it would be the "death of PvP", how it was "yet another concession towards consensual PvP", etc blah blah yet the killboards around the net still show thousands of ships being blown up, the World keeps spinning, etc.
You talk about arrogance whilst unironically acting like your opinion is immutably "right".
So you think it's fine for CCP to just simply ignore its player base even when it speaks out massively against a change? I'm sorry you bend over so easily, but not everyone is sucker like you.
I think it's fine for them to ignore whichever vocal minority of their playerbase deems it appropriate to act like drama queens when their personal playstyle gets nerfed even slightly.
The way some people talk about the 2 second delay is like it makes it totally impossible for them to do anything PvP related. Whilst I agree that the popup message is annoying talking about it like the sky is falling doesn't do anyone any favours, nor does using crappy reverse psychology like "why CCP won't change X", etc.
It's not the end of the World.
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