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Xen Gin Silurian Operations	Posted - 2009.10.28 20:07:00 - [181] Edited by: Xen Gin on 28/10/2009 20:16:01 Edited by: Xen Gin on 28/10/2009 20:06:56 Originally by: Jacob Mei It is logical to assume that these ships transmit the information back to destiny and destiny (ie destiny functions as a huge server). Information needed for the slingshot maneuver would likely have been sent to destiny by these ships (which would explain how destiny was able to pull off the ôreverse slingshotö it did) and thus Eli may have simply requested the proper information. Granted this is making several assumptions but I would argue these are logical ones. Why the shuttle didnÆt have the information: Lets pretend we are ancients for a minute. You have sent unmanned ships out to explore the universe, take down info, and seed stargates. You build destiny to then go follow those ships, receive that information and generally watch out for itself while uninhabited (this means keeping track of any information that may be needed for the ships survival as well as the survival of the crew later on). It does not make sense to put on the shuttle a computer advanced enough to store that information when the destiny can transmit the exact numbers to it. You may argue that a sling shot is relatively easy to do but keep in mind that the shuttle arrived at the exact spot it needed to be (generally lined up with destiny) instead of being plus or minus 30 degrees. Why didnÆt the shuttle automatically make the maneuver? Plot hole, the shuttle wasnÆt receiving the uplink automatically, it was never meant to be automatic, take your pick it made for in the writers mind good tv drama. If we want to talk about plot holes here are a few (at least until their answered): Stargates draw their power from the dialing gate then what is the point of the ship having to be within range of a gate to begin with? If the ships sheilds can survive litterally entering a sun then why is there even hull damage to begin with? Surely if the ships shields are that powerful then anything man made wouldnt be able to breach them. Knowledge of every system the seeder planets and Destiny ever visited isn't needed, its a complex mathematical formula based on current sensory readings of a planet. You don't need some giant galactic computer to store that crap on a shuttle. And lets not forget, he would have to have worked out that path, the computer written in ancient, using the ancient base 6 maths that they used, no doubt they weren't able to change the language to 'English'. Would you trust his 10 second math, calculated in a different base system, in another language that he only had a basic understanding of? I sure as hell wouldn't. So to say he pulled that out within 10 seconds, is just pure fantasy. Had he however just said to the computer to calculate the flight path for the shuttle that is reasonable. But he would have done none of the math, and Eli calling him self math boy is pretty false. However you are right that those plot holes are there too. The shielding is probably THE largest one so far. ## You got that? Right I'll be back in approximately 300 seconds to retort! ##
Jacob Mei Gallente	Posted - 2009.10.28 20:28:00 - [182] Originally by: Xen Gin Edited by: Xen Gin on 28/10/2009 20:16:01 Edited by: Xen Gin on 28/10/2009 20:06:56 Originally by: Jacob Mei It is logical to assume that these ships transmit the information back to destiny and destiny (ie destiny functions as a huge server). Information needed for the slingshot maneuver would likely have been sent to destiny by these ships (which would explain how destiny was able to pull off the ôreverse slingshotö it did) and thus Eli may have simply requested the proper information. Granted this is making several assumptions but I would argue these are logical ones. Why the shuttle didnÆt have the information: Lets pretend we are ancients for a minute. You have sent unmanned ships out to explore the universe, take down info, and seed stargates. You build destiny to then go follow those ships, receive that information and generally watch out for itself while uninhabited (this means keeping track of any information that may be needed for the ships survival as well as the survival of the crew later on). It does not make sense to put on the shuttle a computer advanced enough to store that information when the destiny can transmit the exact numbers to it. You may argue that a sling shot is relatively easy to do but keep in mind that the shuttle arrived at the exact spot it needed to be (generally lined up with destiny) instead of being plus or minus 30 degrees. Why didnÆt the shuttle automatically make the maneuver? Plot hole, the shuttle wasnÆt receiving the uplink automatically, it was never meant to be automatic, take your pick it made for in the writers mind good tv drama. If we want to talk about plot holes here are a few (at least until their answered): Stargates draw their power from the dialing gate then what is the point of the ship having to be within range of a gate to begin with? If the ships sheilds can survive litterally entering a sun then why is there even hull damage to begin with? Surely if the ships shields are that powerful then anything man made wouldnt be able to breach them. Knowledge of every system the seeder planets and Destiny ever visited isn't needed, its a complex mathematical formula based on current sensory readings of a planet. You don't need some giant galactic computer to store that crap on a shuttle. And lets not forget, he would have to have worked out that path, the computer written in ancient, using the ancient base 6 maths that they used, no doubt they weren't able to change the language to 'English'. Would you trust his 10 second math, calculated in a different base system, in another language that he only had a basic understanding of? I sure as hell wouldn't. So to say he pulled that out within 10 seconds, is just pure fantasy. Had he however just said to the computer to calculate the flight path for the shuttle that is reasonable. But he would have done none of the math, and Eli calling him self math boy is pretty false. However you are right that those plot holes are there too. The shielding is probably THE largest one so far. I think we need to agree to disagree on this as there are just too many possibilities. Though in regards to his self appointed nick name, if I recall he claimed that after having completed the proof. Eli's importance seems more to be the fact that he can adapt to the situation quickly, he's inquizative, case in point while the scientists were mooping about the MIT drop out was working on the air problem in the second or third episode. On an unrelated note, Kneel before Zod!
Xen Gin Silurian Operations	Posted - 2009.10.28 21:39:00 - [183] Originally by: Jacob Mei I think we need to agree to disagree on this as there are just too many possibilities. Though in regards to his self appointed nick name, if I recall he claimed that after having completed the proof. Eli's importance seems more to be the fact that he can adapt to the situation quickly, he's inquizative, case in point while the scientists were mooping about the MIT drop out was working on the air problem in the second or third episode. Yeah, I do agree with you. There are many possibilities. ## You got that? Right I'll be back in approximately 300 seconds to retort! ##
Joseph 9 Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2009.10.28 23:01:00 - [184] Did anyone else think after the latest episode that given the ship had just recharged by diving into a star it probably had sufficient energy to dial Earth...? Also with regards to the shields tanking the upper layers of a star but the ship being damaged I presume the damage came from the battle that was mention in the pilot (wrong episode maybe?). Having said which, anything that can punch through a star proof shield would surely ablate solid matter instantly? And the whole "Did Rush know it would survive the star dive" thing was just utter stupidity, very annoying. I had a mild hankering to see Rush go all Begby on the colonels ass for saying that.
Jacob Mei Gallente	Posted - 2009.10.28 23:27:00 - [185] Originally by: Joseph 9 Did anyone else think after the latest episode that given the ship had just recharged by diving into a star it probably had sufficient energy to dial Earth...? Im sure thats going to be explored in the next episode (and found ineffective, otherwise the show would be awfully short now wouldnt it). Given though it took the strength of an unussual planet to dial the destiny I doubt the ship would have soaked up that much power from the sun so quickly. It would be interesting though to find out how the ancients had planned on solving that problem, likely bring several ZPM's with them. Also with regards to the shields tanking the upper layers of a star but the ship being damaged I presume the damage came from the battle that was mention in the pilot (wrong episode maybe?). Having said which, anything that can punch through a star proof shield would surely ablate solid matter instantly? The only thing I could think of is that the shields were somehow down at the time but given that they were working after all this time (and that even with hardly any energy left they survived a star) I doubt that could be possible and would be god like. And the whole "Did Rush know it would survive the star dive" thing was just utter stupidity, very annoying. I had a mild hankering to see Rush go all Begby on the colonels ass for saying that. Yeah I agree but I think Rush's non response was very fitting. If someone basicly just accused me of knowing I may have sent 17 people to their deaths unnessessarly I would have just walked off without saying a word to the idiot. On an unrelated note, Kneel before Zod!
Danton Marcellus Nebula Rasa Holdings	Posted - 2009.10.29 09:16:00 - [186] So I re-watched SG:A and most of it still worked, much better than any Star Trek anyways. Now I'm looking to give SG:1 another chance but last time around I found it to be an intolerable suckfest. I think it's partially me not being able to stand most the cast. Is there bits and pieces I might as well skip? What are the strengths of this series? Should/would/could have, HAVE you chav! Also Known As
Xen Gin Silurian Operations	Posted - 2009.10.29 15:16:00 - [187] Edited by: Xen Gin on 29/10/2009 15:16:42 Originally by: Danton Marcellus So I re-watched SG:A and most of it still worked, much better than any Star Trek anyways. Now I'm looking to give SG:1 another chance but last time around I found it to be an intolerable suckfest. I think it's partially me not being able to stand most the cast. Is there bits and pieces I might as well skip? What are the strengths of this series? I too am watching Atlantis through again, but my dvds seem to be error filled with skips and freezes even though they are pristine. They played through fine the first time when I bought them, but now on different DVD players they are preventing me from watching them again. ## You got that? Right I'll be back in approximately 300 seconds to retort! ##
Jacob Mei Gallente	Posted - 2009.10.29 22:49:00 - [188] Originally by: Danton Marcellus So I re-watched SG:A and most of it still worked, much better than any Star Trek anyways. Now I'm looking to give SG:1 another chance but last time around I found it to be an intolerable suckfest. I think it's partially me not being able to stand most the cast. Is there bits and pieces I might as well skip? What are the strengths of this series? To be honest you can stop watching when the Ori arc begins (I think that begins either in season 8 or 9), its just not worth it in my opinion. Dont bother with the SG-1 movies either, their dissapointments. Though on the other hand at one point SG1 and Atlantis were doing a sort of cross over thing where instead of two seperate episodes, it was like a 2 hour tv movie with the two casts involved (so those episodes, if you are watching atlantis, might be worth your attention). On an unrelated note, Kneel before Zod!
FlameGlow Legio Octae Rebellion Alliance	Posted - 2009.10.30 16:18:00 - [189] I hope they would kill off most of the current cast soon, or at least Rush and Chloe _____________ I don't care what is nerfed, as long as it's not my "undock" button.
Jacob Mei Gallente	Posted - 2009.10.30 16:19:00 - [190] Originally by: FlameGlow I hope they would kill off most of the current cast soon, or at least Rush and Chloe Rush, no. Hes the Rodney/Sam of the group. Chloe, strong possibility she'll be killed off at some point. She seems to really be nothing more than a love interest at this point and we all know what happens to characters who are just that. On an unrelated note, Kneel before Zod!

karma militia	Posted - 2009.10.30 16:45:00 - [191] BAH! Everyone know's stargate stopped being cool after it lost Richard Dean Anderson. and no, it will never be good again. NOW STOP YOU WHINING! Originally by: Corwain The human race is going extinct soon and you all ****ing deserve it.
Danton Marcellus Nebula Rasa Holdings	Posted - 2009.10.30 16:47:00 - [192] Originally by: Jacob Mei Originally by: FlameGlow I hope they would kill off most of the current cast soon, or at least Rush and Chloe Rush, no. Hes the Rodney/Sam of the group. Chloe, strong possibility she'll be killed off at some point. She seems to really be nothing more than a love interest at this point and we all know what happens to characters who are just that. No no no. She'll reveal secret ninja skills and dress up in tight latex as a part of the ships strike force. Mark my words! Should/would/could have, HAVE you chav! Also Known As
Jacob Mei Gallente	Posted - 2009.10.30 16:54:00 - [193] Originally by: Danton Marcellus Originally by: Jacob Mei Originally by: FlameGlow I hope they would kill off most of the current cast soon, or at least Rush and Chloe Rush, no. Hes the Rodney/Sam of the group. Chloe, strong possibility she'll be killed off at some point. She seems to really be nothing more than a love interest at this point and we all know what happens to characters who are just that. No no no. She'll reveal secret ninja skills and dress up in tight latex as a part of the ships strike force. Mark my words! Maybe in Math boys dreams, and then later that episode she'll be killed off. On an unrelated note, Kneel before Zod!
Sader Rykane Amarr Midnight Sentinels Midnight Space Syndicate	Posted - 2009.10.31 01:14:00 - [194] Wonder where I can buy a Kenoboard. Sig Gallery is currently down: Contact me ingame for prices.
Reiisha Evolution IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.10.31 01:21:00 - [195] Possible explanation for the shield 'plot hole': The shields were simply made to withstand the temperatures and friction at the star's surface, not combat-related shennanigans. The outside of star is pretty much just very hot gas, much more predictable and controllable than a focused nuke or other such directed weapon. If you insist that a star is more powerful than that, maybe they simply encountered a ridiculously powerful alien race. Since Destiny can go FTL without going into hyperspace it stands to reason that it's immune while in FTL mode, and escaped that way. "If you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all"
Jacob Mei Gallente	Posted - 2009.10.31 01:32:00 - [196] Originally by: Reiisha Possible explanation for the shield 'plot hole': The shields were simply made to withstand the temperatures and friction at the star's surface, not combat-related shennanigans. The outside of star is pretty much just very hot gas, much more predictable and controllable than a focused nuke or other such directed weapon. If you insist that a star is more powerful than that, maybe they simply encountered a ridiculously powerful alien race. Since Destiny can go FTL without going into hyperspace it stands to reason that it's immune while in FTL mode, and escaped that way. That does make sence to a certain degree though I can't imagine the ancients building a follow up ship without giving it shields and weapons to defend itself (and later the crew). On an unrelated note, Kneel before Zod!
goodby4u Valor Inc. Cosmic Anomalies	Posted - 2009.10.31 01:38:00 - [197] Originally by: Jacob Mei Originally by: Reiisha Possible explanation for the shield 'plot hole': The shields were simply made to withstand the temperatures and friction at the star's surface, not combat-related shennanigans. The outside of star is pretty much just very hot gas, much more predictable and controllable than a focused nuke or other such directed weapon. If you insist that a star is more powerful than that, maybe they simply encountered a ridiculously powerful alien race. Since Destiny can go FTL without going into hyperspace it stands to reason that it's immune while in FTL mode, and escaped that way. That does make sence to a certain degree though I can't imagine the ancients building a follow up ship without giving it shields and weapons to defend itself (and later the crew). Ancients are pacifists, it is possible they only gave the ship incredible defensive capability and expect to simply outrun their enemies. Irregardless, the ship will have epic shield capabilities because it is designed not only to go through suns but also protect a large number of ancients against possibly harmful races, it would be rather short sighted to simply ignore any decent shields.
Khemul Zula Amarr Keisen Trade League	Posted - 2009.10.31 03:26:00 - [198] Edited by: Khemul Zula on 31/10/2009 03:33:18 Originally by: goodby4u Ancients are pacifists... The current Ancients believe in non-intervention to the point of allowing the galaxy to be destroyed, but they were not pacifists. There is a lot of conflict in the Ancient back story. Hell they armed a city(granted it was a spaceship city), which could count on a fleet to defend it. Hell they armed an outpost. They armed their shuttles! One of their allies was rather pacifistic in the current timeline, but they were more the "we are so far beyond your level of advancement that in no way will you ever be a threat and so we refuse to waste the energy appearing to defend ourselves" type. As for the shield stuff. Ship shields tend to treat all damage the same. Personal shields can be pierced by slow moving projectiles, but ship shields are usually treated as having a set amount of "power" that once it runs out shields fail and things go boom quickly. Granted this "power" is defined by the plot and can either fail after one shot from a random alien energy weapon or two shots from an Ori energy beam. And in true sci-fi tradition, the shields do nothing to prevent computer consoles from randomly exploding (you'd think people in the future would figure out a fix for this type of thing). Veal, murder. Baby Carrots, healthy snack. Food hypocrisy at work.
Xen Gin Silurian Operations	Posted - 2009.10.31 04:03:00 - [199] Edited by: Xen Gin on 31/10/2009 04:02:55 Originally by: Khemul Zula And in true sci-fi tradition, the shields do nothing to prevent computer consoles from randomly exploding (you'd think people in the future would figure out a fix for this type of thing). You'd think somebody would stop tying in every console to the shields and hull. Maybe if they only had some sort of localised power surge protector for a certain area to stop the random overload of consoles, like my house has. ## You got that? Right I'll be back in approximately 300 seconds to retort! ##
goodby4u Valor Inc. Cosmic Anomalies	Posted - 2009.10.31 04:15:00 - [200] Edited by: goodby4u on 31/10/2009 04:16:44 Originally by: Khemul Zula Edited by: Khemul Zula on 31/10/2009 03:33:18 Originally by: goodby4u Ancients are pacifists... The current Ancients believe in non-intervention to the point of allowing the galaxy to be destroyed, but they were not pacifists. There is a lot of conflict in the Ancient back story. Hell they armed a city(granted it was a spaceship city), which could count on a fleet to defend it. Hell they armed an outpost. They armed their shuttles! One of their allies was rather pacifistic in the current timeline, but they were more the "we are so far beyond your level of advancement that in no way will you ever be a threat and so we refuse to waste the energy appearing to defend ourselves" type. They were pacifists, because they ran from every conflict and fought every war the same way. The ori for example, instead of battling them(suicidal as it might be)they ran. The wraith, they fought a defensive war and when they began to lose they ran back to the milky way. Finally they ascended because of their ability to be pacifists sometime when they were in the milky way galaxy, and now they almost never use their powers in battle. The only reason they developed weapons were in defense, atleast that is what the storyline tells us. EDIT:You are referring to the knox(however you spell their name) and they are capable of avoiding battle because their tech allows them and they are not explorers, whereas the ancients may have the tech to do this but they are explorers and thus are more vulnerable to attack.

Jacob Mei Gallente	Posted - 2009.10.31 04:23:00 - [201] Originally by: Khemul Zula Edited by: Khemul Zula on 31/10/2009 03:33:18 Originally by: goodby4u Ancients are pacifists... The current Ancients believe in non-intervention to the point of allowing the galaxy to be destroyed, but they were not pacifists. There is a lot of conflict in the Ancient back story. Hell they armed a city(granted it was a spaceship city), which could count on a fleet to defend it. Hell they armed an outpost. They armed their shuttles! Thats not really right either. Publicly they are big on non-intervention but as has been pointed out by several acended ancients and even Anubis, they really only follow that policy when it fits their agenda. There are several examples where the ancients as a collective intervined (Sams acended boyfriend told her that the ancients wiped out an entire planets population because he gave that planet the ability to defend itself). On an unrelated note, Kneel before Zod!
Khemul Zula Amarr Keisen Trade League	Posted - 2009.10.31 04:40:00 - [202] The Ancients do appear to be horrible fighters. They rely too much on their technology (which is never as superior as they think). But that doesn't really make them pacifists. It makes them not aggressive. They are perfectly willing to fight, they'd just rather not. Originally by: Jacob Mei Originally by: Khemul Zula Edited by: Khemul Zula on 31/10/2009 03:33:18 Originally by: goodby4u Ancients are pacifists... The current Ancients believe in non-intervention to the point of allowing the galaxy to be destroyed, but they were not pacifists. There is a lot of conflict in the Ancient back story. Hell they armed a city(granted it was a spaceship city), which could count on a fleet to defend it. Hell they armed an outpost. They armed their shuttles! Thats not really right either. Publicly they are big on non-intervention but as has been pointed out by several acended ancients and even Anubis, they really only follow that policy when it fits their agenda. There are several examples where the ancients as a collective intervined (Sams acended boyfriend told her that the ancients wiped out an entire planets population because he gave that planet the ability to defend itself). Technically they wiped out the population to correct his intervention on that world. Anubis was a punishment for an Ancient interfering (helping people ascend). The Ancients will stop any (major) intervention with non-ascended beings, even if it means allowing (or causing) whole civilizations to be destroyed. Veal, murder. Baby Carrots, healthy snack. Food hypocrisy at work.
goodby4u Valor Inc. Cosmic Anomalies	Posted - 2009.10.31 04:47:00 - [203] Depends on your definition of pacifism in this case... A typical definition is an opposition to war, and the back story does show that they are opposed to war however they aren't willing to die off as a race as a result of a belief, so they defend themselves... Note the fine line of defend themselves, they don't go on offense(as far as the battle with the wraith go). Also as far as we know their bigger ships and cities would not be cloaked, that was a result of our resourcefulness.... So they were indeed forced to develop weapons and shields to survive. Their true nature can be seen through what they had to do to ascend, become so passive to the point of not defending themselves by monsters(in that one sga episode where the people were in the time dilation field.
Jacob Mei Gallente	Posted - 2009.10.31 04:50:00 - [204] Originally by: goodby4u Edited by: goodby4u on 31/10/2009 04:16:44 Originally by: Khemul Zula Edited by: Khemul Zula on 31/10/2009 03:33:18 Originally by: goodby4u Ancients are pacifists... The current Ancients believe in non-intervention to the point of allowing the galaxy to be destroyed, but they were not pacifists. There is a lot of conflict in the Ancient back story. Hell they armed a city(granted it was a spaceship city), which could count on a fleet to defend it. Hell they armed an outpost. They armed their shuttles! One of their allies was rather pacifistic in the current timeline, but they were more the "we are so far beyond your level of advancement that in no way will you ever be a threat and so we refuse to waste the energy appearing to defend ourselves" type. They were pacifists, because they ran from every conflict and fought every war the same way. The ori for example, instead of battling them(suicidal as it might be)they ran. The wraith, they fought a defensive war and when they began to lose they ran back to the milky way. Finally they ascended because of their ability to be pacifists sometime when they were in the milky way galaxy, and now they almost never use their powers in battle. The only reason they developed weapons were in defense, atleast that is what the storyline tells us. EDIT:You are referring to the knox(however you spell their name) and they are capable of avoiding battle because their tech allows them and they are not explorers, whereas the ancients may have the tech to do this but they are explorers and thus are more vulnerable to attack. Uh, no. Thats strategic retreating (they reconized a hopeless battle when they saw it). Ori: Its explained in Arc of truth. The good ancients were a minority (much like the Tok'ra) or had been reduced to a small number by the Ori (the two were the same civilization but the Ori wanted to be worshiped as gods). They retreated to a mountain on a planet and instead of convincing the humans that they Ori were no gods they decided it would be better to let people believe whatever the hell they want even if it means they can be destroyed by them (really, really stupid move on their part). Wraith: The wraith reproduced like rabbits. It was a classic case of the best technology simply being overwelmed by superior numbers (they were blobbed). Acention: Acention doesnt require being a pacifist, just knowing alot or having a helping hand from an already acended being, otherwise the Ori would never have been able to pull it off. On an unrelated note, Kneel before Zod!
goodby4u Valor Inc. Cosmic Anomalies	Posted - 2009.10.31 04:57:00 - [205] Originally by: Jacob Mei Originally by: goodby4u Edited by: goodby4u on 31/10/2009 04:16:44 Originally by: Khemul Zula Edited by: Khemul Zula on 31/10/2009 03:33:18 Originally by: goodby4u Ancients are pacifists... The current Ancients believe in non-intervention to the point of allowing the galaxy to be destroyed, but they were not pacifists. There is a lot of conflict in the Ancient back story. Hell they armed a city(granted it was a spaceship city), which could count on a fleet to defend it. Hell they armed an outpost. They armed their shuttles! One of their allies was rather pacifistic in the current timeline, but they were more the "we are so far beyond your level of advancement that in no way will you ever be a threat and so we refuse to waste the energy appearing to defend ourselves" type. They were pacifists, because they ran from every conflict and fought every war the same way. The ori for example, instead of battling them(suicidal as it might be)they ran. The wraith, they fought a defensive war and when they began to lose they ran back to the milky way. Finally they ascended because of their ability to be pacifists sometime when they were in the milky way galaxy, and now they almost never use their powers in battle. The only reason they developed weapons were in defense, atleast that is what the storyline tells us. EDIT:You are referring to the knox(however you spell their name) and they are capable of avoiding battle because their tech allows them and they are not explorers, whereas the ancients may have the tech to do this but they are explorers and thus are more vulnerable to attack. Uh, no. Thats strategic retreating (they reconized a hopeless battle when they saw it). Ori: Its explained in Arc of truth. The good ancients were a minority (much like the Tok'ra) or had been reduced to a small number by the Ori (the two were the same civilization but the Ori wanted to be worshiped as gods). They retreated to a mountain on a planet and instead of convincing the humans that they Ori were no gods they decided it would be better to let people believe whatever the hell they want even if it means they can be destroyed by them (really, really stupid move on their part). Wraith: The wraith reproduced like rabbits. It was a classic case of the best technology simply being overwelmed by superior numbers (they were blobbed). Acention: Acention doesnt require being a pacifist, just knowing alot or having a helping hand from an already acended being, otherwise the Ori would never have been able to pull it off. They had the necessary weapons to defeat the ori(the arc of truth itself) they were simply unwilling to use it(for obvious reasons)... Each battle they were on the losing end of they ran. They overwhelmed the wraith for about 20-30 years, an offensive would had wiped them out without much trouble, however they were unwilling to attack them. Watch the ascension episode with the time dilation field in sga, they were complete pacifists.
Jacob Mei Gallente	Posted - 2009.10.31 04:59:00 - [206] Originally by: Khemul Zula The Ancients do appear to be horrible fighters. They rely too much on their technology (which is never as superior as they think). But that doesn't really make them pacifists. It makes them not aggressive. They are perfectly willing to fight, they'd just rather not. Originally by: Jacob Mei Originally by: Khemul Zula Edited by: Khemul Zula on 31/10/2009 03:33:18 Originally by: goodby4u Ancients are pacifists... The current Ancients believe in non-intervention to the point of allowing the galaxy to be destroyed, but they were not pacifists. There is a lot of conflict in the Ancient back story. Hell they armed a city(granted it was a spaceship city), which could count on a fleet to defend it. Hell they armed an outpost. They armed their shuttles! Thats not really right either. Publicly they are big on non-intervention but as has been pointed out by several acended ancients and even Anubis, they really only follow that policy when it fits their agenda. There are several examples where the ancients as a collective intervined (Sams acended boyfriend told her that the ancients wiped out an entire planets population because he gave that planet the ability to defend itself). Technically they wiped out the population to correct his intervention on that world. Anubis was a punishment for an Ancient interfering (helping people ascend). The Ancients will stop any (major) intervention with non-ascended beings, even if it means allowing (or causing) whole civilizations to be destroyed. Anubis has already ascended with Oma's help but after doing something particularly nasty (its never indicated what) they sent him back half way and told him he could use anything ancient so long as he could have discovered it as a ghould in the first place, that was Omas punishment. I should also point out that Oma acended the entire village on abydos (sp) or the entire planet population (its never really indicated if there are other populations on that planet but it seems its not uncommon for there to be at best only a few million on a planet living close to the stargate) when Anubis blew the planet away and the ancients did nothing to stop it. On an unrelated note, Kneel before Zod!
Jacob Mei Gallente	Posted - 2009.10.31 05:06:00 - [207] Originally by: goodby4u They had the necessary weapons to defeat the ori(the arc of truth itself) they were simply unwilling to use it(for obvious reasons)... Each battle they were on the losing end of they ran. They overwhelmed the wraith for about 20-30 years, an offensive would had wiped them out without much trouble, however they were unwilling to attack them. Watch the ascension episode with the time dilation field in sga, they were complete pacifists. No its explained in the very first episode of Atlantis by the city computer that the ancients were technologically superior but the wraith grew in numbers too fast for them to be defeated and quite litterally the atlantis empire that was in pegasus shrank from galaxy wide to only the city. At that point they decided it just wasnt worth it anymore, sunk the city and retreated back to earth through the stargate. They never overwelmed the wraith, quite the opposite (rewatch the first half hour of the first episode). The time dilation episode- it wasnt about them being pacifists but facing their fears. If anything those sudo ascended beings were cowards and it took Shepard standing up to the perverbial boogeyman to help them ascend. On an unrelated note, Kneel before Zod!
goodby4u Valor Inc. Cosmic Anomalies	Posted - 2009.10.31 05:13:00 - [208] Originally by: Jacob Mei Originally by: goodby4u They had the necessary weapons to defeat the ori(the arc of truth itself) they were simply unwilling to use it(for obvious reasons)... Each battle they were on the losing end of they ran. They overwhelmed the wraith for about 20-30 years, an offensive would had wiped them out without much trouble, however they were unwilling to attack them. Watch the ascension episode with the time dilation field in sga, they were complete pacifists. No its explained in the very first episode of Atlantis by the city computer that the ancients were technologically superior but the wraith grew in numbers too fast for them to be defeated and quite litterally the atlantis empire that was in pegasus shrank from galaxy wide to only the city. At that point they decided it just wasnt worth it anymore, sunk the city and retreated back to earth through the stargate. They never overwelmed the wraith, quite the opposite (rewatch the first half hour of the first episode). They owned or protected about every planet in the galaxy and the wraith started on one, logically the ancients overwhelmed them at some point. Also that same episode said they won every battle but were losing the war, this means that if they won every battle and were gaining ground then eventually the wraith would run out of cloning facilities and basic planets so they would be overwhelmed again. It is obvious they didn't do this as it would have been a short war. As far as them being cowards, that was a result of them not wishing to be violent and therefore forfeit their life's work. The final test for them was in a sense learning the difference between a good reason and a bad reason to fight.
Khemul Zula Amarr Keisen Trade League	Posted - 2009.10.31 05:18:00 - [209] Edited by: Khemul Zula on 31/10/2009 05:18:47 Most of the examples don't really show them so much as pacifists, so much as just not willing to go all out to stop their enemy. They will fight, both defensively and offensively, up until a certain point. Then they retreat. This point seems to be about where we'd expect planets to start getting glassed (or even planets/stars being destroyed outright. It could be that they have a little trauma in the galaxy-wide destruction department (the original fight with the Ori). Or it could be that they just lean a bit towards pacifism. There is plenty of evidence that they are willing to fight, but they arn't willing to use weapons of mass destruction (this is a major reason they lost to the Wraith, they had a weapons to wipe out the Wraith but it would have meant letting a whole lot of stargate explode). Veal, murder. Baby Carrots, healthy snack. Food hypocrisy at work.
goodby4u Valor Inc. Cosmic Anomalies	Posted - 2009.10.31 05:28:00 - [210] Originally by: Khemul Zula Edited by: Khemul Zula on 31/10/2009 05:18:47 Most of the examples don't really show them so much as pacifists, so much as just not willing to go all out to stop their enemy. They will fight, both defensively and offensively, up until a certain point. Then they retreat. This point seems to be about where we'd expect planets to start getting glassed (or even planets/stars being destroyed outright. It could be that they have a little trauma in the galaxy-wide destruction department (the original fight with the Ori). Or it could be that they just lean a bit towards pacifism. There is plenty of evidence that they are willing to fight, but they arn't willing to use weapons of mass destruction (this is a major reason they lost to the Wraith, they had a weapons to wipe out the Wraith but it would have meant letting a whole lot of stargate explode). You might have a point. However I think the ancients wished to be pacifists, but everybody **ed on their parade and as a result they became bad warriors. I think one thing that we can all agree on is as stargate progressed ancients looked like bigger and bigger **s to everybody that they befriended.



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