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Allen Ramses Caldari Red Federation	Posted - 2009.10.08 23:24:00 - [61] Originally by: Gtlzotllh and Etho Demerzel RR and shield transport balance I think you missed the point. The Shield transporter is where it should be. It is a repair augmenting mod, and a decent one at that. The point is that RR is NOT where it should be. The primary repair system should not require 281% more grid than the augmenting mod while having close to the same performance. So increase the PG requirements for RR by 350% so that we can stop playing RR BS online? FAKE EDIT: Am I the only one experiencing forum login issues? I was hoping this was fixed. ____________________ CCP: Catering to the cowards of a cold, harsh universe since November, 2006.
Gtlzotllh	Posted - 2009.10.08 23:35:00 - [62] Originally by: Allen Ramses I think you missed the point. The Shield transporter is where it should be. It is a repair augmenting mod, and a decent one at that. The point is that RR is NOT where it should be. The primary repair system should not require 281% more grid than the augmenting mod while having close to the same performance. So increase the PG requirements for RR by 350% so that we can stop playing RR BS online? Yes! Nerf teamwork! I would much rather encourage blobs and lack of thought! Originally by: Etho Demerzel No, YOU are asking to preserve YOURS I-WIN button. Reason BEGS for either to cut the cpu requirements of transporters to HALF of what it is today or to increase cpu requirements of large reps to TWICE of what they are today. You choose... If shield transporter fittings are made to have the same fitting as RR, the repair needs to occur at the end of the cycle. Quote: Now you finally got insane. Really. 1) THERE IS NO SUCH A THING AS FRIGATE-SIZED PLATING. PLATINGS HAVE NO SIZES. CAPSLOCK MAKES MY ARGUMENT STRONGER Quote: - Armor ships are NOT used in sniper role Uhh... no? Don't tell me that you are one of those people who tank a sniper ship... Quote: - Armor ships are NOT used in small gang pvp They are, but they are forced to sacrifice tank in order to fit damage modules. My shield ships in small gang have a nice bite. Quote: - Armor ships can only be used in RR gangs, so they should be the only ones able to do it, right? Who said that? \o/ for more lies. Raven tempest and scorp can already fit shield transfers. There is nothing stopping them from doing such. Quote: So Armor tanked ships belong to the exclusive role of RR and shield tanked don't right? Nice, leave shield transfers as they are, lets instead nerf range, damage and ehp in all armor tanked ships then! That is flavor! Ahhh. So now we are getting somewhere. "nerf all armor tanks" Tell the policeman, where on the doll did the bad megathron touch you? Quote: Just because there are situations where they are needed. Nothing arbitrary with it, btw. "Needed" - because I said it is! Originally by: Typhado3 just shows how insanely crap minmatar are at specialising Confirming that minmatar are the "focused" race and were never considered to be versatile. I will take my 8x torpedo typhoon and 4x arty naglfar now, thanks. Quote: An AB interceptor will still have around 500 m/s overloaded after double webbed, for example. I reckon that it is an extreme case, but other frigs will all be in the 300-400 m/s range. That is hardly stopping a target. And would have a paper tank to go with that 500m/s. Meaning it would get onevollied by a cruiser. Seriously. You are not going to get your personal iwin button so stop filling this thread with trash.
Tray LiSans	Posted - 2009.10.08 23:39:00 - [63] I'd have to agree with the comment about the Eagle. It really needs a boost to PG, and to a lesser extent cap. The thing can barely fit a full rack of guns, and if you want anything other than maybe a DCU with those guns you have to fit a RC as well.
Ghoest	Posted - 2009.10.08 23:41:00 - [64] Its kind of hard to take a complaint post seriously that doesnt mention the Eagle. Wherever you went - Here you are.
Guillame Herschel Gallente NME1	Posted - 2009.10.08 23:51:00 - [65] Edited by: Guillame Herschel on 08/10/2009 23:52:00 Originally by: xxxak FURTHERMORE, the new agility changes (as of about 9 months ago?) mean that the avergae cruiser can warp off before a rapier/huginn can lock on, meaning that at least one slot has to have a sensor booster. That means 1 web or NO tank. [Huginn, YesWeCan] 3x Arby Assault Launchers 3x D180 T2 autocannons Y-T8 MWD 3x Stasis Webifier II 2x Sensor Booster II, scan res 1600mm RRT EANM II DCU II Medium ACR Medium Trimark or a resist (suggest Kinetic) 3x Hammerhead II 2x Hobgoblin II *-- He said "The President is near."*
Kail Storm Caldari	Posted - 2009.10.09 00:17:00 - [66] Edited by: Kail Storm on 09/10/2009 00:18:51 Etho you responded to all of his statements with correct responses but he doesnt want to see that shields should have a place in RR as well. Since RR is the equiv of the strongest weapon in eve at the moment how does a large caldar or Min fleet keep up with a Amarr or Gal...Awnser is they dont. Im all for flavor and love Amarr but you are crazy if you think a 71% is marginal and worth the Begining of cycle lol...Crazy Zolith since amarr has snipers that are as good or better than the Rokh and have ships virtually in each class as good or better your argument doesnt hold water RR pushes even a small gang over the edge, of what say a small gang of ravens can do. Why should a Cald pilot or Mael have to convert there ships to RR instead of getting some shield fights? So I guess your IDea of "FLavor" Is 100 ships Fighting all in RR BS`s Lol If you run, You`ll only die tired :)
Jaedar Metron Celestial Warp Ghost Guardians Eych Four Eks Zero Ahr	Posted - 2009.10.09 00:19:00 - [67] I agree to a lot of your points Liang, always have. That being said... Quote: Prophecy: Khandize it please. Resists + HAM ROF bonus, 50m^3 drone bay/bandwidth, Mmmmmm.... Why should Amarr get RoF + double drone bay while Caldari only get Kinetic dmg for the Drake? There are already people moaning about the Drake being too good, what would happen if this monster ever shows up? (THis is of course assuming it would have 7 launchers like the Drake... )
Gtlzotllh	Posted - 2009.10.09 00:31:00 - [68] Originally by: Kail Storm Etho you responded to all of his statements with correct responses but he doesnt want to see that shields should have a place in RR as well. You should probably check my corp's killboards before spouting off. For 6+ months running, my corp was the only corp in the gal-caldari FW to use shield logistics in gangs. We did it often and we did it well. Originally by: Kail Storm Why should a Cald pilot or Mael have to convert there ships to RR instead of getting some shield fights? dohoho. So you would fit your 8x-gun-active-tanking maelstrom with shield transfers? Going to drop a few guns to do that? And funny that you FAIL to mention both the tempest -and- the typhoon, which are more than able to fly in RR gangs (tempest being able to fly in shield gangs OR armor gangs) I have already stated that if the fitting requirements are to be brought closer, transporters need to rep at the end of the cycle. Since this is obviously unimportant like you all claim, it is surely an acceptable compromise
Davinel Lulinvega	Posted - 2009.10.09 00:32:00 - [69] I object to your claim that the tempest is ever worth flying in any situation. Originally by: CCP Tuxford Now the op looks like a weirdo that can't read kekekeke! inb4 stealth edit
Grarr Bexx	Posted - 2009.10.09 00:37:00 - [70] Hm. The Rapier and Huginn predicament is actually a good way to make the Huginn worth flying again. Make it like the Curse and the Pilgrim: One gets an additional web strength bonus, one keeps the original range bonus and the ability to covert cloak
Davinel Lulinvega	Posted - 2009.10.09 00:44:00 - [71] Originally by: Grarr Bexx Hm. The Rapier and Huginn predicament is actually a good way to make the Huginn worth flying again. Make it like the Curse and the Pilgrim: One gets an additional web strength bonus, one keeps the original range bonus and the ability to covert cloak Yeah, that's what I suggested. Originally by: CCP Tuxford Now the op looks like a weirdo that can't read kekekeke! inb4 stealth edit
Allen Ramses Caldari Red Federation	Posted - 2009.10.09 01:08:00 - [72] Originally by: Gtlzotllh Yes! Nerf teamwork! I would much rather encourage blobs and lack of thought! RR BS gangs are the primary reason to encourage blobs and lack of thought! You wanna help your buddy out? Fine, but you had better be prepared to dedicate some resources to do so. RR currently does not do this. Using dedicated RR boats to help keep the party alive is teamwork. Everyone fitting RR because it does the same job, but doesn't sacrifice anything but a utility high is beyond imbalanced, and invalidates the purpose of dedicated ships. Effectiveness needs to be reduced, or fitting needs to be increased, and that's all there is to it! ____________________ CCP: Catering to the cowards of a cold, harsh universe since November, 2006.
Davinel Lulinvega	Posted - 2009.10.09 01:12:00 - [73] Originally by: Allen Ramses Originally by: Gtlzotllh Yes! Nerf teamwork! I would much rather encourage blobs and lack of thought! RR BS gangs are the primary reason to encourage blobs and lack of thought! You wanna help your buddy out? Fine, but you had better be prepared to dedicate some resources to do so. RR currently does not do this. Using dedicated RR boats to help keep the party alive is teamwork. Everyone fitting RR because it does the same job, but doesn't sacrifice anything but a utility high is beyond imbalanced, and invalidates the purpose of dedicated ships. Effectiveness needs to be reduced, or fitting needs to be increased, and that's all there is to it! The sacrifice is having to all sit within spitting distance of each other. Also dedicated rr is still far more effective than rrbs, which is why every decent rr fleet brings guardians along. That hardly invalidates logistics. Originally by: CCP Tuxford Now the op looks like a weirdo that can't read kekekeke! inb4 stealth edit
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2009.10.09 01:20:00 - [74] Originally by: baltec1 Missiles launcher slot for the badger mark II please. I have my reasons Get a Crane. Seriously. -- Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Tier 5 Battleships
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2009.10.09 01:22:00 - [75] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 09/10/2009 01:23:51 Originally by: Allen Ramses RR BS gangs are the primary reason to encourage blobs and lack of thought! You wanna help your buddy out? Fine, but you had better be prepared to dedicate some resources to do so. RR currently does not do this. Using dedicated RR boats to help keep the party alive is teamwork. Everyone fitting RR because it does the same job, but doesn't sacrifice anything but a utility high is beyond imbalanced, and invalidates the purpose of dedicated ships. Effectiveness needs to be reduced, or fitting needs to be increased, and that's all there is to it! There's just enough of a kernel of truth in what you say to make me wince. I know it's true, but I don't really want to admit it. Eve is a sandbox, and I'd like to think that it should be possible to fit RR BS's. The question is if they give up enough EHP/DPS to do it. Maybe the right answer is: - Fix shield or armor RR requirements (normalize around some point so that the fittings are similar even if heavy on different subsystems) - Nerf RR range and boost logistic ships range - Make a rig for increasing RR range, another for RR amount, another to increase cap efficiency, another to increase incoming RR, etc. I dunno, I know that I would find the Scimitar useful (small gang support), and I find the Basilisk useful (POS repping)... but when things start happening with mass battleships (Armor RR)...... cruisers just are kinda fail against The Big Blob. I ramble again. Take this post with a grain of salt. Originally by: David Lulinvega The sacrifice is having to all sit within spitting distance of each other. Also dedicated rr is still far more effective than rrbs, which is why every decent rr fleet brings guardians along. That hardly invalidates logistics. I underlined the important part. Notice that it's the only one really welcome? Not that they're likely to turn down an Ony, but I've usually been told to get in a Domi instead. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
Davinel Lulinvega	Posted - 2009.10.09 01:32:00 - [76] Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 09/10/2009 01:23:51 Originally by: Allen Ramses RR BS gangs are the primary reason to encourage blobs and lack of thought! You wanna help your buddy out? Fine, but you had better be prepared to dedicate some resources to do so. RR currently does not do this. Using dedicated RR boats to help keep the party alive is teamwork. Everyone fitting RR because it does the same job, but doesn't sacrifice anything but a utility high is beyond imbalanced, and invalidates the purpose of dedicated ships. Effectiveness needs to be reduced, or fitting needs to be increased, and that's all there is to it! There's just enough of a kernel of truth in what you say to make me wince. I know it's true, but I don't really want to admit it. Eve is a sandbox, and I'd like to think that it should be possible to fit RR BS's. The question is if they give up enough EHP/DPS to do it. Maybe the right answer is: - Fix shield or armor RR requirements (normalize around some point so that the fittings are similar even if heavy on different subsystems) - Nerf RR range and boost logistic ships range - Make a rig for increasing RR range, another for RR amount, another to increase cap efficiency, another to increase incoming RR, etc. I dunno, I know that I would find the Scimitar useful (small gang support), and I find the Basilisk useful (POS repping)... but when things start happening with mass battleships (Armor RR)...... cruisers just are kinda fail against The Big Blob. I ramble again. Take this post with a grain of salt. Originally by: David Lulinvega The sacrifice is having to all sit within spitting distance of each other. Also dedicated rr is still far more effective than rrbs, which is why every decent rr fleet brings guardians along. That hardly invalidates logistics. I underlined the important part. Notice that it's the only one really welcome? Not that they're likely to turn down an Ony, but I've usually been told to get in a Domi instead. -Liang That's more just because oneiros' are bad. Scimitars are actually useful compared to basilisks due to speed, sig, and res. The oneiros is just a guardian but worse. Originally by: CCP Tuxford Now the op looks like a weirdo that can't read kekekeke! inb4 stealth edit
Allen Ramses Caldari Red Federation	Posted - 2009.10.09 01:36:00 - [77] Originally by: Davinel Lulinvega The sacrifice is having to all sit within spitting distance of each other. That is not a sufficient enough reason to reduce the fitting requirement by such a degree, and you know it! Quote: Also dedicated rr is still far more effective than rrbs, which is why every decent rr fleet brings guardians along. That hardly invalidates logistics. 3 LRAR will repair about as much damage as a Guardian, and the guardian can't fit anti-BS guns. Oh, and MARs don't require more than three times the fitting of a MRAR, so why should the LAR? ____________________ CCP: Catering to the cowards of a cold, harsh universe since November, 2006.
Gtlzotllh	Posted - 2009.10.09 01:40:00 - [78] Quote: - Nerf RR range and boost logistic ships range RR is 8km and logistics cruisrs are 72km. How much nerfing and boosting do we need to do? Quote: cruisers just are kinda fail against The Big Blob. To answer this I point at the pure blind region over the last few weeks. I see guardians listed in 100+ engagements (and not dead ones) on all the killboards...
Allen Ramses Caldari Red Federation	Posted - 2009.10.09 01:52:00 - [79] You want a real nerf? Remove RR from non-logistics ships. I would LOVE to see that, but I know it wont happen. All I really care about is the absurdly low powergrid requirements of LRAR. That's all. ____________________ CCP: Catering to the cowards of a cold, harsh universe since November, 2006.
AstroPhobic Brutor tribe	Posted - 2009.10.09 01:55:00 - [80] Originally by: Ghoest Its kind of hard to take a complaint post seriously that doesnt mention the Eagle. Eagle does 100km sniping better than the muninn
Gtlzotllh	Posted - 2009.10.09 01:55:00 - [81] Originally by: Allen Ramses You want a real nerf? Remove RR from non-logistics ships. I would LOVE to see that, but I know it wont happen. All I really care about is the absurdly low powergrid requirements of LRAR. That's all. Your tears, they are delicious. Dear blizzar-....oops. Dear CCP, some jerks used teamwork in this mmo to defeat my uber solo ship, pls nerf them!
Allen Ramses Caldari Red Federation	Posted - 2009.10.09 02:13:00 - [82] Originally by: Gtlzotllh Your tears, they are delicious. Dear blizzar-....oops. Dear CCP: some jerks, lacking aspergers and a proper neckbeard, formed friends and used teamwork in this mmo to defeat my uber solo ship! pls nerf them! You know what? I could respond to your asinine post with an equally asinine post, but I'm a far superior person than you will ever be, because I don't use personal attacks, nub. Insert moar hate text here. But seriously, you REALLY think it is justified for a LRAR to take only 1/3 fitting as a LAR? Please tell me how this absurdly low fitting is justified. Back it up with logical reasons. ____________________ CCP: Catering to the cowards of a cold, harsh universe since November, 2006.
Gtlzotllh	Posted - 2009.10.09 02:17:00 - [83] Originally by: Allen Ramses But seriously, you REALLY think it is justified for a LRAR to take only 1/3 fitting as a LAR? Please tell me how this absurdly low fitting is justified. Back it up with logical reasons. You are the one making the claim that there is an imbalance. The burden of proof rests with you.
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2009.10.09 02:45:00 - [84] Originally by: Gtlzotllh You are the one making the claim that there is an imbalance. The burden of proof rests with you. Aside from the ebb and flow of your "feelings," why should teamwork be discouraged in EVE? Why should sandbox gameplay be removed and restricted? You could use this same argument (that you just made) to attempt to justify 8 heatsink geddons or 12km/s nano phoons. Sandbox gameplay isn't a carte blanche. Sandbox gameplay isn't a license to have uber pwn mobiles. There must be limits and restrictions in any sandbox. And truthfully, sandbox gameplay doesn't imply that anything is possible. Also, there's a pretty huge body of evidence that armor RR is overpowered next to shield RR or local repping or buffer tanking or sig tanking or speed tanking or ... Hell, the only kinds of tanking are cloak tanking and station tanking. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
Allen Ramses Caldari Red Federation	Posted - 2009.10.09 02:49:00 - [85] Originally by: Gtlzotllh You are the one making the claim that there is an imbalance. The burden of proof rests with you. Aside from the ebb and flow of your "feelings," why should teamwork be discouraged in EVE? Why should sandbox gameplay be removed and restricted? I asked you a simple question. You could, you know, answer it. And I NEVER said teamwork should be discouraged. Tricking your opponent into thinking you are going to do something, but catch him off his guard by having one of your teammates fulfill a role is teamwork. RR BS is not teamwork, it is nothing but collective toughness with no actual coordination, work, or skill other than keep at range. Team without work is not teamwork, it is collective operation. ____________________ CCP: Catering to the cowards of a cold, harsh universe since November, 2006.
BiggestT Caldari Amarrian Retribution	Posted - 2009.10.09 03:00:00 - [86] Originally by: Gtlzotllh Edited by: Gtlzotllh on 09/10/2009 02:30:47 Originally by: Allen Ramses But seriously, you REALLY think it is justified for a LRAR to take only 1/3 fitting as a LAR? Please tell me how this absurdly low fitting is justified. Back it up with logical reasons. You are the one making the claim that there is an imbalance. The burden of proof rests with you. Aside from the ebb and flow of your "feelings," why should teamwork be discouraged in EVE? Why should sandbox gameplay be removed and restricted? Oh wow, enough of your terrible posting already! Stop hiding behind your crappy, repetitive arguments to try and retain ur advantage, how bout u try and fly a shield bs with rr or use shield rr in a gang, noob. (Saying it shldn't be used in a gang wld make it a useless module, u think thats balance??!) How wld u like it if ccp suddenly switched the stats for shield and rr around? Stop posting your "dont nerf my shaman" crap. EVE Trivia EVE History
Gtlzotllh	Posted - 2009.10.09 03:12:00 - [87] Originally by: Allen Ramses And I NEVER said teamwork should be discouraged. Tricking your opponent into thinking you are going to do something, but catch him off his guard by having one of your teammates fulfill a role is teamwork. RR BS is not teamwork, it is nothing but collective toughness with no actual coordination, work, or skill other than keep at range. Team without work is not teamwork, it is collective operation. team⋅work ûnoun 1. cooperative or coordinated effort on the part of a group of persons acting together as a team or in the interests of a common cause. Yea guys, rr bs totally doesn't fall into that definition Originally by: Allen Ramses I asked you a simple question. You could, you know, answer it. You made the claim that remote repair is imbalanced with the supporting argument being that you "would love to see them nerfed" I will answer your question when you support your claims with a real argument, not "feelings." Originally by: BiggestT Oh wow, enough of your terrible posting already! Stop hiding behind your crappy, repetitive arguments to try and retain ur advantage, how bout u try and fly a shield bs with rr or use shield rr in a gang, noob. You should probably check my corp's killboard, bro. Or even check youtube... We used shield logi constantly and did it with style (usually with ZERO losses and outnumbered!) Just because you can't do it, doesn't mean it is broken.
Davinel Lulinvega	Posted - 2009.10.09 03:22:00 - [88] Originally by: BiggestT "dont nerf my shaman" I lold. Poor shamans. They got **ed so hard in burning crusade. Originally by:** CCP Tuxford Now the op looks like a weirdo that can't read kekekeke! inb4 stealth edit
Amalinze Tehkat Out of Order Cult of War	Posted - 2009.10.09 03:34:00 - [89] Your argument that "my corp of 1337 d00ds shield reps, you are all morons" proves the counterpoint perfectly. Morons can RR, it takes 1337 d00ds to shield transfer. Any strategy that hinges upon having as many similarly-fit ships as possible is not sandbox gameplay, it's cookie cutter gameplay, and it's a disgrace to all the things that make eve great that success in any engagement type, especially large fleet battles, might hinge not upon excellent strategy, but upon excellent execution of the one and only viable strategy.
Gtlzotllh	Posted - 2009.10.09 04:07:00 - [90] Originally by: Amalinze Tehkat Your argument that "my corp of 1337 d00ds shield reps, you are all morons" proves the counterpoint perfectly. Morons can RR, it takes 1337 d00ds to shield transfer. Wow. If you seriously need to play up a militia corp, no no no, a caldari militia corp as "1337 pvpers" to further your bloodthirst for nerfs... I pity you. If caldari militia can do it, anyone can. People who say otherwise are just crying for their own personal iwin button. Originally by: Amalinze Tehkat Any strategy that hinges upon having as many similarly-fit ships as possible is not sandbox gameplay, it's cookie cutter gameplay, and it's a disgrace to all the things that make eve great that success in any engagement type, especially large fleet battles, might hinge not upon excellent strategy, but upon excellent execution of the one and only viable strategy. Only one viable strategy? wtf? It's called min-maxing. Sniper fleets (which are a great counter to RR bs fleets, btw. I heard ROKHS fly in these gangs c/d?) do this also, I guess we should nerf snipers? When you have a large amount of players grouped together, they typically need to focus into a specific role in order to maximize potential effectiveness. There will be support ships providing tackle, warpins, scouting, etc. but most of the time, the majority of any successful large fleet will be roughly similar. Definitions of sandbox game on the Web: * A game with nonlinear gameplay that presents players with challenges that can be completed in a number of different sequences. Sniper fleets, roaming bomber gangs, hac gangs, rr bs gangs, inty gangs... these all sound like different ways to pvp to me. And considering that bombers and snipers quite often decimate rr bs gangs, it doesn't sound like rr bs are "the only option." Sandbox.

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