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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
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Posted - 2009.10.08 08:10:00 -
[1]
I've been around in Eve for a while.... and there's some injustices I'd love to see fixed. This is something of a one-off to blow some steam off after work, but I thought I'd share.
- Low tier frigates: Make them all equivalent to highest tier frigs. Increase frig locking range.... seriously wtf? - EAFs: They got hit too hard by the nano nerf... never see them anymore. :| - Hawk: CRIPES WTF USELESS SHIP ALREADY JEEZE FIX IT! - Vengeance/Malediction: Shouldn't we have fixed roflkets by now? - Enyo: Needs something to distinguish it from the Ishkur. Like more damage. - Craptor/Ares/Eris: Sigh. Terrible T2 ships is just such a waste. - Coercer: JEEZE PEOPLE ONE MID SLOT IS NOT ENOUGH! - Light Dictors: I hated you for the dictor speed nerf. Now the 'real' nano nerf hit and I hate you even more. - Tier 1 BCs: Make them Tier 2. The skill difference between BC1 and BC2 is laughable. - Prophecy: Khandize it please. Resists + HAM ROF bonus, 50m^3 drone bay/bandwidth, Mmmmmm.... - Omen: It'd almost work as a mini-geddon if it had the fittings to work with. - Augoror: This, I think, is the most useless cruiser in game. That says something with the lolicose out there. - Arbitrator: 3 turret slots please. - Retribution: Hello 2 mid slots plx? - Celestis/Arazu/Lachesis: The strength change that came from scripts (and I am specifically referring to the strength of the individual sides) was a way overkill nerf. Can we get the damp bonus boosed to 7.5-12.5%? IIRC it took 12.5% to get it back up to where it was. Scripts was a good idea, but changing the underlying formula wasn't. - Painter bonused ships: Sigh. You call this **** ewar? - Rapier/Huginn: Web strength bonus please. Maybe at the cost of the painter bonus. See above: You call this **** ewar? - Muninn: Two utility highs at 100km... useless. I can has 2 mids or mid/low or 2 low? - Black Ops: More gank would be nice. Or removing the scan res penalty on cloaks. Or a covops cloak. - I am underwhelmed by the Oneiros. The Basilisk/Guardian/Scimi each have distinctive roles (Basi for POS repping, Guardian for heavy armor gangs, Scimi for nano gangs) .... but fast moving gangs don't really need armor often. - Procurer: Why? - Jump Freighers: ZOMG EXPENSAVE JEEEEEZZZEEEEEE..... (ok, I'm just jealous, I admit it)
If I forgot your (least) favorite: sorry. Feel free to add it! If you disagree: sure... that's your prerogative.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
baltec1
Antares Shipyards Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2009.10.08 08:17:00 -
[2]
Missiles launcher slot for the badger mark II please. I have my reasons
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Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.10.08 08:47:00 -
[3]
I disagree on giving the Rapier/Huging web strenght bonus. Would be to powerful with the range bonus.
Either strenght or range, not both.
So another bonus would be more appropriate imo.
Nighthawk: Needs more gird, slot redistribution and bonus overhaul to be a good ship for PVP. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html |
Redora
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.10.08 10:15:00 -
[4]
Diemost: Make it wurk again. :(
Quote:
Anyone have any spoons I can borrow? If I have to spoon-feed any more players, I'll have to eat my Wheaties with a fork.
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fivetide humidyear
Gallente Fool Mental Junket
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Posted - 2009.10.08 10:15:00 -
[5]
myrmidon - 100m3 bandwidth blockade runners - 2 high slots on all instead of the clearly overpowered prowler. harbinger - symmetrical 7th gun slot astarte - extra utility high nighthawk - extra grid eos - back to some semblance of it's former glory.
finally found a use for the auguror tho liang, feeding cap to amarr BS on a low skill alt when taking down high sec POS's and you are too lazy to change to cap stable setups or bring an alt with cap charges.
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TimMc
Gallente Brutal Deliverance
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Posted - 2009.10.08 10:18:00 -
[6]
I don't understand why people think its a good idea for rapier/huggin to have strength AND range bonus. Maybe give the huggin a strength bonus and rapier a range one, but not both on a single ship.
Myrmidon needs 100mbit.
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Xetal Maelstrom
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Posted - 2009.10.08 10:25:00 -
[7]
There are a lot of cases where a race has two ships that fill a very similar role in a particular class-size.
Obviously one ends up being better than the other, which makes the worse one pretty well useless. I'd like to see these changed to have completely different strengths/weaknesses.
Hyperion/Megathron is a good example of this, or Harbinger/Prophecy. Just too similar.
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David Devant
Gallente CTRL-Q
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Posted - 2009.10.08 10:32:00 -
[8]
On the huginn and rapier they should increase the number of mids and adjust CPU and cap. Thus letting you fit more webs or a tp or 2. Problem with TPs is why would you fit one over a web? Same with hyena.
And Eris. Totally agree. Omg why?
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Cerebus Brutus
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Posted - 2009.10.08 10:54:00 -
[9]
Retribution realy needs another mid slot to be a awsome ship.
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Ioptic
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Posted - 2009.10.08 11:07:00 -
[10]
As far as the hawk goes... When the ab change hits it will be the only af that can achieve reasonable damage at top speed while orbiting. Though admittedly the others will mainly use the ab bonus to get into range
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BiggestT
Caldari Amarrian Retribution
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Posted - 2009.10.08 11:21:00 -
[11]
Edited by: BiggestT on 08/10/2009 11:23:16 Pretty much what liang said except tofr the minmi web strength bonus.
Additionally, the nighthawk needs more bang for its overpriced buck (more grid, more slots w/e).
The eagle sucks. Yes I said it. A ferox can do anything it can do for cheaper. Dont give me that "but 100km with antimatter!" crap, it still has lousy dps and tracking with terrible cap when using antimatter. Use spike and ur dps is so bad that you can only shoot at ceptors at 200km and hope they are stupid enough to hang around for a few volleys. Not to mention cap use with spike blows chunks.
Also, the moa is useless, railboat t1 cruiser? lame??!!
edit And no, dont give me that "use blasters" crap for these railboats, a brutix or gallente cruiser is much better for that.
Reckon some of the non-caldari t1 ewar cruisers cld use a buff too... EVE Trivia EVE History
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XXSketchxx
Gallente Remote Soviet Industries
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Posted - 2009.10.08 12:05:00 -
[12]
Hawk: for the love of god please fix rockets. Its such a sexy ship and I love missiles
Prophecy: khanidize? Yes please. It wouldn't be horribly overpowered with resists + HAM RoF bonus and even just a 25m3 bay.
Rapier/huggin: I don't fly them but web strength bonus should be there, especially with one of the faction BSs now getting it (I forget which one).
Augoror: I don't even know what the bonuses on that ship are
Retribution: I don't understand why this ship has 1 mid
And the most important, the Nighthawk: From what I have read it was introduced before HAMs? Thus the grid required to fit HAMS + tank + mwd wasn't taken into account; yes I know some crazy people pvp in it and its regarded as a superb PVE boat (that's what I use it for). But the fact of the matter is that if you want to pvp, use a drake for marginal difference in performance for a fraction of the cost. T2 should obviously be a more costly loss but it should also have a tad bit more enhanced performance... _____________________________________________
-Sketch, Certified Pharmacist
Need a Boost?
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Gallente Citizen1
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Posted - 2009.10.08 12:51:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
- Prophecy: Khandize it please. Resists + HAM ROF bonus, 50m^3 drone bay/bandwidth, Mmmmmm....
Oh yea. good way to nerf lasers is to transform them into ham or drone ships. Atleast spare the Zealot and Harbinger.
Most other suggestions sounded good.
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NoNah
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Posted - 2009.10.08 13:23:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Gallente Citizen1
Originally by: Liang Nuren
- Prophecy: Khandize it please. Resists + HAM ROF bonus, 50m^3 drone bay/bandwidth, Mmmmmm....
Oh yea. good way to nerf lasers is to transform them into ham or drone ships. Atleast spare the Zealot and Harbinger.
Most other suggestions sounded good.
He's taking a useless ship and turning it into an awesome one.
There's a few ships you've missed though, for example iteron Mk 4, which is way out of line with the 3 and 5. Heretic, for same reasons as malediction and vengeance. Lachesis..? Kronos, needs a decent dronebay, the only one unable to viably fit close range guns needs some kind of edge. Vargur, needs a small buff in damage, it simply doesn't compare to the paladin and golem. The whats-its-name minmatar hauler. Parrots, commence!
Postcount: 987452
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Borasatar
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Posted - 2009.10.08 13:26:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Ioptic As far as the hawk goes... When the ab change hits it will be the only af that can achieve reasonable damage at top speed while orbiting. Though admittedly the others will mainly use the ab bonus to get into range
I heard a rumor that they were ditching the AB bonus for AFs...
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Renarla
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Posted - 2009.10.08 13:34:00 -
[16]
Agreed on pretty much all points, just add Deimos, Myrmidon, and Hyperion to that list. And give the Ishtar more PG/CPU, seriously... nearly twice the slots of a Vexor with ~5% more PG and CPU? How does anyone fit this thing? However, on another note, I now have one of those annoying sigs. |
Warrio
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.10.08 13:59:00 -
[17]
Augoror is far from the least useful cruiser. It provides an excellent cap battery able to be flown by newer players, particularly in POS shooting situations. - |
fuxinos
Caldari Guys 0f Sarcasm
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Posted - 2009.10.08 14:21:00 -
[18]
I gotta agree with Liang once here.
And I got to add some more:
- Shield Transporters: Lower their CPU reqs. - Give the Ferox a 7th Turret - Give the Eagle, Nighthawk and Cerberus sligtly more PG - Helios -1 Mid +1 High - Rockets.....~~~ - Blaster: maybe +50% Falloff and 5% more Tracking.
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Typhado3
Minmatar Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium Aeternus.
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Posted - 2009.10.08 14:29:00 -
[19]
could ccp give minmatar the fastest ship again.... having the amarr cepter be faster when you try to overheat your mwds is just sad.
also maelstrom.
I thought minmatar where speed/flexibility yet maelstrom has neither of those. ------------------------------
Just a crazy inventor ccp fix mining agent missions % pls
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Beltantis Torrence
NoD Imperium
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Posted - 2009.10.08 15:30:00 -
[20]
Arazu and Lachesis also need significantly better agility. They handle worse than the Gallente HACs do.
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Davinel Lulinvega
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Posted - 2009.10.08 15:32:00 -
[21]
Originally by: TimMc I don't understand why people think its a good idea for rapier/huggin to have strength AND range bonus. Maybe give the huggin a strength bonus and rapier a range one, but not both on a single ship.
Myrmidon needs 100mbit.
Or do it like the amarr recons. Force recon only gets one bonus, combat recon gets both.
Originally by: CCP Tuxford Now the op looks like a weirdo that can't read kekekeke!
inb4 stealth edit |
Renarla
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Posted - 2009.10.08 15:34:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Beltantis Torrence Arazu and Lachesis also need significantly better agility. They handle worse than the Gallente HACs do.
Better cap also, they cap out faster than a Vaga with a 100mn MWD. (And aren't as awesome) However, on another note, I now have one of those annoying sigs. |
ropnes
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Posted - 2009.10.08 15:40:00 -
[23]
Give the Gallente ewar cruisers a bonus to remote ECCM Would make them useful in gangs as a counter to falcons
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Eli Porter
Amarr Altruism.
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Posted - 2009.10.08 16:08:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
- Low tier frigates: Make them all equivalent to highest tier frigs. Increase frig locking range.... seriously wtf? - EAFs: They got hit too hard by the nano nerf... never see them anymore. :| -Agreed. EAF's need some sort of a buff to make them more survivable. I was thinking more in line of a scaling Sig Radius decrease per level. - Hawk: CRIPES WTF USELESS SHIP ALREADY JEEZE FIX IT! -It's not as terrible as you make it out to be, but some bonuses just don't belong there(missile speed, wut?) - Vengeance/Malediction: Shouldn't we have fixed roflkets by now? -I believe CCP said that's in the works? - Enyo: Needs something to distinguish it from the Ishkur. Like more damage. -As long as you boost the other assault frigs that need fixing. - Craptor/Ares/Eris: Sigh. Terrible T2 ships is just such a waste. -At least the Eris is cheap. But being the slowest dictor should at least give it the most damage output, which its terrible weaponry systems and bonuses don't deliver. - Coercer: JEEZE PEOPLE ONE MID SLOT IS NOT ENOUGH! -Agreed. - Light Dictors: I hated you for the dictor speed nerf. Now the 'real' nano nerf hit and I hate you even more. -I'd have to be playing before the speed nerf to comment on that. - Tier 1 BCs: Make them Tier 2. The skill difference between BC1 and BC2 is laughable. -Skill difference on most tiers is laughable. The important difference is the cost for the Tier 1 ships, and that shouldn't change. - Prophecy: Khandize it please. Resists + HAM ROF bonus, 50m^3 drone bay/bandwidth, Mmmmmm.... -Khanid should stay a T2 thing IMO. There are other ways to fix the Prophecy. - Omen: It'd almost work as a mini-geddon if it had the fittings to work with. -The Omen does its job as a tougher Stabber IMO, and the Amarr T1 Cruiser line is supposed to be weak. - Augoror: This, I think, is the most useless cruiser in game. That says something with the lolicose out there. -It's nice for pos bashing assistance. - Arbitrator: 3 turret slots please. -Arbi is good enough. - Retribution: Hello 2 mid slots plx? -YES
I'll view the rest later
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Lance Fighter
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.10.08 16:30:00 -
[25]
pretty please fix my heretic? >.>
Blane Xero > Lance is at -0.9 sec status with a 1 million bounty. LAnce is also amarrian. Thats 3 evil points |
Pax Empyrean
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Posted - 2009.10.08 16:41:00 -
[26]
Quote: - Low tier frigates: Make them all equivalent to highest tier frigs. Increase frig locking range.... seriously wtf?
This. How often to people fly the crap frigates? A ship that's good for the first 20 minutes of a character's career is a waste. Give them all ten slots total (like the top tier frigates all currently have) and we'll have all kinds of useful little ships. With the incoming boost to AFs, the currently worthless frigates are going to be even worse.
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Ulstan
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Posted - 2009.10.08 17:08:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Ulstan on 08/10/2009 17:11:39 1) Remove the tier concept from frigates. Give them all the slots, hp, fittings, of the top tier frigates. 2) Remove the tier concept from cruisers. Make them all be 'top tier' cruisers. 3) Make tier 1 BC as good as tier 2 BC (which are very well balanced) 4) The Nighthawk has a laughably low grid. Seriously, it's the only command ship that loses grid compared to its T1 counterpart (the drake). This thing needs way more grid. In fact, many ships just don't have enough fitting. Omen and Moa short on Grid, many missile frigates short on CPU (hookbill, worm) 5) The hawk: worst AF in the game. Does less damage than its T1 counterpart, the kestrel. Has an active tank bonus but not enough med slots or PG to mount a good active tank. Such a terrible ship 6) All ships using rockets suck, because rockets suck 7) All destroyers except the thrasher suck 8) All interdictors except the sabre suck. 9) Coercer and retribution have 1 mid slot. This is not enough for light ships. 10) The Craptor. Worst interceptor in the game. Would probably remain so even if the powergrid CCP took away when it got it's 3rd turret were re-introduced, but it would at least be a start. 11) Prophecy. Tank is not a role in PvP. Make it a Khanid ship please :) 12) Make all minmatar BS able to active shield tank. If they have to armor tank, they are not going to be more nimble and agile than other races BS. Caldari BS need to be able to active shield tank as well. Shield transporters need to not cost ridiculous amounts of CPU. Then we might actually see RR BS shield gangs instead of just armor gangs. 13) Any frigate with a missile velocity boost: this boost is useless. Rockets suck, don't use them. Base light missiles already have too great a range and too low a damage, able to shoot well past over heated scram range and even past the frigates own lock range.
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Rordan D'Kherr
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.10.08 17:15:00 -
[28]
Let's see:
One player got 20 wishes. Let's say 250.000 subscribers. Average number of wiches: maybe 10. Makes 2.500.000 changes.
Oh yeah, sounds like a plan.
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Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2009.10.08 17:35:00 -
[29]
6 turret or missile slots on the Scorpion.
Important Internet Spaceship League Wants You |
General Coochie
The Bastards The Bastards.
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Posted - 2009.10.08 17:37:00 -
[30]
Edited by: General Coochie on 08/10/2009 17:38:25 I agree with Liang on everything that I have enough experience to comment on which is like half. And the rest sounds reasonable.
I do not agree with the minmatar recon changes though. Needs buff? Maybe. Range and strength bonus, no thanks.
I agree on making all cruisers same tier as someone said. Would make the game MUCH more fun. Though you gotta be careful with the arbi and vexor cause they are quite powerful only being tier 2 at this time. Caracal, omen, celestis, auguror, bellicose, stabber and even moa, could use various amounts of love.
Especially the omen, someone said it works as a better stabber but that ain't true cause it can barely fire its weapons without capping out and its a pain to fit it. The fact that a thorax fitted like an omen outperforms it in every aspect says something. (except maybe a slight advantage to omen speed)
The important thing here I think is buff all the useless ships that no one is flying. How CCP can decide. Just make ppl fly all the ships in the game. It would be much more fun seeing more variety in ships and tactics used.
Got Cooch?, solo PvP movie
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Soralio
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.10.08 17:42:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Soralio on 08/10/2009 17:41:46
Originally by: Ulstan
<Snip>
I agree with everything you just said.
EDIT: Yay for page 2 sniping! HYRDA WILL PROVAIL |
slightly sillydude
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Posted - 2009.10.08 18:15:00 -
[32]
I do not understand the reluctance to give the web strength bonus to minmatar recons. Without it the Rapier/Huginn is the only recon ship that can't reasonably affect more than one target at a time. Everyone knows about the falcon/Rooks ability to shut down more than one ship. The curse can one shot the cap of any cruiser, and two shot battlecruisers, then move on to another target. The Arazu is not great but can still do its thing to more than one ship. The Rapier on the other hand, can't even reasonably use both its e-wars, and it needs at least two webs on one target to be of much use. Furthermore, garbage webs are the reason you need a blob people to get any kind of effective gate camp going. A buff to minmatar webs would be a nice buff to small gang combat.
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Allen Ramses
Caldari Red Federation
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Posted - 2009.10.08 18:17:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Ulstan Shield transporters need to not cost ridiculous amounts of CPU. Then we might actually see RR BS shield gangs instead of just armor gangs.
Yes, because we all know what we need for PvP is more RR. Shield transporters use 18% more grid and 34% more CPU than boosters. I am perfectly happy with that.
What I'd like to see is remote reps to follow suit by requiring 33% more grid than the local rep, instead of the 71% less it is now. ____________________ CCP: Catering to the cowards of a cold, harsh universe since November, 2006. |
Gtlzotllh
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Posted - 2009.10.08 18:35:00 -
[34]
Quote:
- EAFs: They got hit too hard by the nano nerf... never see them anymore. :| - Vengeance/Malediction/Heretic: Shouldn't we have fixed roflkets by now? - Light Dictors: I hated you for the dictor speed nerf. Now the 'real' nano nerf hit and I hate you even more. - Prophecy: Khandize it please. Resists + HAM ROF bonus, 50m^3 drone bay/bandwidth, Mmmmmm.... - Enyo: Needs something to distinguish it from the Ishkur. Like more damage. - Retribution: Hello 2 mid slots plx? - Coercer: JEEZE PEOPLE ONE MID SLOT IS NOT ENOUGH! - Omen: It'd almost work as a mini-geddon if it had the fittings to work with. - Celestis/Arazu/Lachesis: The strength change that came from scripts (and I am specifically referring to the strength of the individual sides) was a way overkill nerf. Can we get the damp bonus boosed to 7.5-12.5%? IIRC it took 12.5% to get it back up to where it was. Scripts was a good idea, but changing the underlying formula wasn't. - Black Ops: More gank would be nice. Or removing the scan res penalty on cloaks. Or a covops cloak. - I am underwhelmed by the Oneiros. The Basilisk/Guardian/Scimi each have distinctive roles (Basi for POS repping, Guardian for heavy armor gangs, Scimi for nano gangs) .... but fast moving gangs don't really need armor often.
Agree with all of these.
Quote: - Rapier/Huginn: Web strength bonus please. Maybe at the cost of the painter bonus. See above: You call this **** ewar?
Seems overpowered. Maybe on huginn only, swap TP for web strength, but reduce the web range so it is 20km @ lvl5. Also, give huginn a bit more PG
Quote: - Muninn: Two utility highs at 100km... useless. I can has 2 mids or mid/low or 2 low?
More mids/lows seems overpowered honestly, but I agree that the utility highs are basically useless. Also. Muninn needs more scanres!
Quote: - Shield Transporters: Lower their CPU reqs.
This, but only VERY slightly. Most people are looking for an "i-win" button with shield transporters and are hiding all the current benefits of them. (ex: stronger tank, reps at the beginning of the cycle, etc)
Quote: could ccp give minmatar the fastest ship again.... having the amarr cepter be faster when you try to overheat your mwds is just sad.
If you are talking about a vagabond then yeah, no. Heavy Cruisers should not outrun interceptors.
Quote: maelstrom
YES. Once projectiles are rebalanced, fix this thing. You nerfed moros because ridiculous amounts of people were station humping with it. Give our maelstroms a real bonus, one that doesn't encourage lame station humping.
Quote: 11) Prophecy. Tank is not a role in PvP. Make it a Khanid ship please :)
Quoting this again just because prophecy needs a real role. 5% resists per level. 5% rof to hams per level. DO ITTTTT.
Adding a few: fix the inties so they can target out to their intended ranges. Malediction at max skills can disrupt to 30km, but only locks to 27.5! Claw has similar problems, as does the crusader iirc. Please fix?
Pilgrim: Typically very underwhelming compared to the curse imo. Consider swapping the strength bonus to a range bonus?
Myrm: 100m3 bandwidth plz.
Eos: give it a bit more of something. EHP or damage, preferably.
Blasters: fix them. People are asking for range bonuses and basically want a substandard laser clone. boooo @ that. Blasters have always been "sold" as being a "short range ball of fire; if you touch it, you will get burnt" Give them awesome tracking and a bit of a rof boost to make up for the web failure. Don't listen to the WoW players. We don't want some joke laser clone.
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Zarnak Wulf
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Posted - 2009.10.08 18:42:00 -
[35]
/signed.
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Etho Demerzel
Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone
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Posted - 2009.10.08 19:02:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 08/10/2009 19:05:29
Quote: - Rapier/Huginn: Web strength bonus please. Maybe at the cost of the painter bonus. See above: You call this **** ewar?
Seems overpowered. Maybe on huginn only, swap TP for web strength, but reduce the web range so it is 20km @ lvl5. Also, give huginn a bit more PG
How is it overpowered to bring minmatar recons to EXACTLY where they were before, when they were NEVER considered overpowered? That is pure bull****.
Quote:
Quote: - Muninn: Two utility highs at 100km... useless. I can has 2 mids or mid/low or 2 low?
More mids/lows seems overpowered honestly, but I agree that the utility highs are basically useless. Also. Muninn needs more scanres!
You use this "overpowered" word without further elaboration quite too often, really...
Quote:
Quote: - Shield Transporters: Lower their CPU reqs.
This, but only VERY slightly. Most people are looking for an "i-win" button with shield transporters and are hiding all the current benefits of them. (ex: stronger tank, reps at the beginning of the cycle, etc)
Tipical Amarr guy... You have no clue about shields. Shield transporters are no better or worse than remote armor repairers, for all practical purposes. And shield tanking is no better or worse than armor tanking, regarding tanking capacity.
Quote:
If you are talking about a vagabond then yeah, no. Heavy Cruisers should not outrun interceptors.
He is talkign about ALL ships in their classes. Like interceptors, for example. Do you know the fastest interceptor is amarr? All minmatar ships should be at least slightly faster than their counterparts of other races. That is not always the case.
Now from all dicussed here, the most important things to be fixed in my opinion, even if others are not, are the ships with only 1 mid (Retribution ftl), and the blaster ships with only 2 mids (Enyo). The gallente and minnie recons are second in the list. All else isn't nearly as bad, although I have to agree that the game would be better with ALL the changes suggested by the OP, plus shield transporters having their cpu requirements decreased a LOT. =====
"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
slightly sillydude
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Posted - 2009.10.08 19:06:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Allen Ramses
Originally by: Ulstan Shield transporters need to not cost ridiculous amounts of CPU. Then we might actually see RR BS shield gangs instead of just armor gangs.
Yes, because we all know what we need for PvP is more RR. Shield transporters use 18% more grid and 34% more CPU than boosters. I am perfectly happy with that.
What I'd like to see is remote reps to follow suit by requiring 33% more grid than the local rep, instead of the 71% less it is now.
CONSISTENCY!!
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xxxak
Caldari No Limit Productions Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2009.10.08 19:08:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Allen Ramses
Originally by: Ulstan Shield transporters need to not cost ridiculous amounts of CPU. Then we might actually see RR BS shield gangs instead of just armor gangs.
Yes, because we all know what we need for PvP is more RR. Shield transporters use 18% more grid and 34% more CPU than boosters. I am perfectly happy with that.
What I'd like to see is remote reps to follow suit by requiring 33% more grid than the local rep, instead of the 71% less it is now.
Perfectly said. ++++++
Short range webs are pretty worthless on a paper thin recons like the Rapier/Huginn, and without a strength bonus, those ships suck.
FURTHERMORE, the new agility changes (as of about 9 months ago?) mean that the avergae cruiser can warp off before a rapier/huginn can lock on, meaning that at least one slot has to have a sensor booster. That means 1 web or NO tank.
A rapier/huginn with a max skill and alert pilot should have a DECENT CHANCE of grabbing a cruiser and stopping it from burning back to a gate. Otherwise, its bull****.
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Gtlzotllh
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Posted - 2009.10.08 19:28:00 -
[39]
Quote: 12) Make all minmatar BS able to active shield tank. If they have to armor tank, they are not going to be more nimble and agile than other races BS. Caldari BS need to be able to active shield tank as well. Shield transporters need to not cost ridiculous amounts of CPU. Then we might actually see RR BS shield gangs instead of just armor gangs.
I would probably need an entire topic to discuss this abortion of an idea, but I will attempt to summarize: No.
EVE has a long history of unneeded and heavy-handed nerfs because people try to push a ship or a module into a role where it doesn't belong. Just because scissors cannot cut rock does not mean that paper is underpowered or that scissors need a buff.
Shield transporters have many benefits over armor reps. Most notably that they repair at the beginning (this alone is HUGE) of the cycle. Nerfing/boosting so that shield bs can easily use transporters would only serve to nerf flavor and fails to address the underlying differences (not imbalance. DIFFERENCE) between shield and armor.
Quote: Yes, because we all know what we need for PvP is more RR.
Nerf teamwork! What kind of moron devs would encourage teamwork in an mmo?! Clearly mindless blobbing with no structure and no teamwork is better for the growth of the game.
Quote:
How is it overpowered to bring minmatar recons to EXACTLY where they were before, when they were NEVER considered overpowered? That is pure bull****.
Bringing them "exactly to where they were before" and leaving everything else alone would mean that they are relatively MUCH more powerful than before. Stop trying to get an i-win button.
Quote: He is talkign about ALL ships in their classes. Like interceptors, for example. Do you know the fastest interceptor is amarr? All minmatar ships should be at least slightly faster than their counterparts of other races. That is not always the case.
wot. Claw - 4x OD2, mwd, 2x aux rig: 5612m/s Sader - 4x OD2, mwd, 2x aux rig: 5601m/s
pr0tip: these are not the WoW forums. You can't lie in your "buff shamans" thread and get away with it.
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Denny Haze
Amarr Ministry of War
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Posted - 2009.10.08 19:31:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Davinel Lulinvega
Originally by: TimMc I don't understand why people think its a good idea for rapier/huggin to have strength AND range bonus. Maybe give the huggin a strength bonus and rapier a range one, but not both on a single ship.
Myrmidon needs 100mbit.
Or do it like the amarr recons. Force recon only gets one bonus, combat recon gets both.
OHGOD, this! So this! The Pilgrim is complete crap in itself, and compared to other force recons, which are mostly like their combat counterparts, the Pilgrim is utter ****e
60D GTC |
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Lance Fighter
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.10.08 19:42:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Denny Haze
Originally by: Davinel Lulinvega
Originally by: TimMc I don't understand why people think its a good idea for rapier/huggin to have strength AND range bonus. Maybe give the huggin a strength bonus and rapier a range one, but not both on a single ship.
Myrmidon needs 100mbit.
Or do it like the amarr recons. Force recon only gets one bonus, combat recon gets both.
OHGOD, this! So this! The Pilgrim is complete crap in itself, and compared to other force recons, which are mostly like their combat counterparts, the Pilgrim is utter ****e
what? I ****ing LOVE my pilgrim. I will not give it up for any other recon. Its a beast when it is close enough to work, and i WILL NOT agree with losing its strength bonus for range. its stupid.
Blane Xero > Lance is at -0.9 sec status with a 1 million bounty. LAnce is also amarrian. Thats 3 evil points |
Etho Demerzel
Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone
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Posted - 2009.10.08 19:51:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 08/10/2009 19:55:15
Originally by: Gtlzotllh
Shield transporters have many benefits over armor reps. Most notably that they repair at the beginning (this alone is HUGE) of the cycle. Nerfing/boosting so that shield bs can easily use transporters would only serve to nerf flavor and fails to address the underlying differences (not imbalance. DIFFERENCE) between shield and armor.
Given today's high EHP in the class of ships that use them, repairing at the begining or at the end is completely irrelevant. It is not as if battleships will be alphaed before the first repair cycle of remote reps can happen...
I am sick of people using the word "flavor" to support imbalances. Lets do the following:
- make large remote repairers repair at the beginning of the cycle and shield transporters at the end - lower CPU requirements of Shield Transports to 73% LESS than Shield Boosters - increase PG requirements of Remote Reps to 33% MORE than Armor Repairers
THEN lets see you speak of "flavor" .
Quote:
Nerf teamwork! What kind of moron devs would encourage teamwork in an mmo?! Clearly mindless blobbing with no structure and no teamwork is better for the growth of the game.
Trying to defend remote armor reps while keeping shield transporters ridiculous high cpu only shows how biased you are. It is sickening, really.
Quote:
Bringing them "exactly to where they were before" and leaving everything else alone would mean that they are relatively MUCH more powerful than before. Stop trying to get an i-win button.
And what exactly is "everything else"? In which way it makes any difference? Nothing that changed made minnie recons better. Right, the end speeds of cruisers is lower now, but with 90% webs, which they ALREADY had before, this difference is hardly relevant.
Quote:
wot. Claw - 4x OD2, mwd, 2x aux rig: 5612m/s Sader - 4x OD2, mwd, 2x aux rig: 5601m/s
Wow. 11 m/s of total END speed difference? Now check masses to see which one will be able to MAINTAIN the higher speed at any orbit... And, if you don't know what I am speaking about just do your homework.
Quote:
pr0tip: these are not the WoW forums. You can't lie in your "buff shamans" thread and get away with it.
protip: you can't talk nonsense here without being busted... =====
"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
Cpt Branko
The Scope
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Posted - 2009.10.08 20:09:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 08/10/2009 20:09:48 Abolish tier system for sub-BS ships and boost them all. Look, suddenly there is a bazillion of non-useless ships to fly.
Fix roflkets.
Give all AFs a minimum of 3 mids except Retribution which can live with two. Said it all in the AF thread. That and the Roflket fix go a long way to adressing problems with the things.
10% bonus on damp ships seems like a good idea.
I don't like the Rapier/Huginn web strength. I'd rather see 75% webs everywhere or some other web change. Tackle shouldn't require specialist ships to work, if it does require specialist ships to work at range. TP is indeed useless and could use a good looking at.
Shield transfers do need a CPU reduction from the currently insane fitting reqs.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Gtlzotllh
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Posted - 2009.10.08 20:11:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
Given today's high EHP in the class of ships that use them, repairing at the begining or at the end is completely irrelevant. It is not as if battleships will be alphaed before the first repair cycle of remote reps can happen...
And why exactly should shield battleships be forced into the role of large gang RR?
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
I am sick of people using the word "flavor" to support imbalances.
Translation: I see a FOTM and stamp my feet when all ships do not fit in! Nerf all ships so that we only fly the rookie ships and the only difference is cosmetic.
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
- make large remote repairers repair at the beginning of the cycle and shield transporters at the end - lower CPU requirements of Shield Transports to 73% LESS than Shield Boosters - increase PG requirements of Remote Reps to 33% MORE than Armor Repairers
THEN lets see you speak of "flavor" .
Why? Because you said so? You have given no reason whatsoever for this.
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
Trying to defend remote armor reps while keeping shield transporters ridiculous high cpu only shows how biased you are. It is sickening, really.
Heh. I have already stated in this thread that shield transporters need a cpu reduction. More lies from Etho! Awesome~!
Originally by: Etho Demerzel And what exactly is "everything else"? In which way it makes any difference? Nothing that changed made minnie recons better. Right, the end speeds of cruisers is lower now, but with 90% webs, which they ALREADY had before, this difference is hardly relevant.
My megathron had 90% webs too, does it get it's 90% webs back? If no, why?
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
Originally by: Gtlzotllh
wot. Claw - 4x OD2, mwd, 2x aux rig: 5612m/s Sader - 4x OD2, mwd, 2x aux rig: 5601m/s
*Strawman argument*
You mentioned speed and added no qualifying factors. I love how you try to divert attention from the subject though <3
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
protip: you can't talk nonsense here without being busted...
Nonsense: if you can't lie, divert, or cry your way into what you want, say the other guy is nonsense!
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Ad Valorem
Minmatar Industrial Mite
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Posted - 2009.10.08 20:26:00 -
[45]
If you mention Augorororors don't forget the Exquerororors and Scytheseses. Pretty nice list tho.
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Etho Demerzel
Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone
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Posted - 2009.10.08 20:26:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 08/10/2009 20:31:00
Originally by: Gtlzotllh And why exactly should shield battleships be forced into the role of large gang RR?
That is the wrong question. The right one is: "Why should they be EXCLUDED from the large gang RR role?"
They wouldn't be "forced" into anything. They would be ALLOWED into that role. Armor battleships can go RR or not as they please. I see no reason whatsover to take this possibility of shield battleships by crippling their ability to use shield transporters.
Quote:
Translation: I see a FOTM and stamp my feet when all ships do not fit in! Nerf all ships so that we only fly the rookie ships and the only difference is cosmetic.
Translation: Don't nerf my I-win button. Me amarr, me use laz0rs and Remote reps and should be above all other mortals!
Quote:
Why? Because you said so? You have given no reason whatsoever for this.
I didn't. YOU DID. You said it is a huge advantage, that is so ubber, etc. You seem to think that this advantage is sufficient to balance the RIDICULOUS difference in fitting requirements, between two modules that should serve the same role.
So lets give YOU, armor users, this advantage AND these crippling fitting requirements, and leave us shield users, with the "flavor" of not having this "extremelly large" advantage, but being able to actually USE our remote rep module. Thank you.
Quote:
Heh. I have already stated in this thread that shield transporters need a cpu reduction. More lies from Etho! Awesome~!
In your words "very slight cpu reduction". Very slight is nothign considering they use 71% MORE CPU than Shield Boosters. Sorry, but "very slight cpu reduction" doesn't even begin to cut it. They should be EVERY BIT as easy to fit as Remote Armor Reps.
Quote:
My megathron had 90% webs too, does it get it's 90% webs back? If no, why?
That is one of the changes being asked by anyone with half a brain to blaster boats, in ANY blaster thread. Because you know, the web nerf screwed blasters majorly.
Quote:
*Strawman argument* You mentioned speed and added no qualifying factors. I love how you try to divert attention from the subject though <3
Speed has no meaning if it is not REAL speed, not theoretical speed in straight line situations, otherwise we would be talking about vagas with 100MN mwds here... You as a good EFT warrior can't see it though, as it should be expected.
Minmatar ships must be faster AND more agile, or they are worth nothing.
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
Nonsense: if you can't lie, divert, or cry your way into what you want, say the other guy is nonsense!
It is incredibly simpler than that: "If what the other guy is talkign about is nonsense then call it nonsense." =====
"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
Gtlzotllh
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Posted - 2009.10.08 21:17:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
Originally by: Gtlzotllh And why exactly should shield battleships be forced into the role of large gang RR?
That is the wrong question.
Because you say it is? No. It is exactly the right question and you are trying to divert attention away from it to further your quest for causing imbalance.
You see armor ships using remote reps in large gangs. Instead of taking rokhs where they excel and using them as a sniper platform, or ravens in small gang pvp, you want to copy large gang rr and reduce the flavor of eve. Booo I say. Booo.
This is simply another instance of people calling for heavy-handed nerfs to put a ship into a role in which it does not belong. If your advice was taken it would still not avail you because of the very nature of EVE pvp. You would only be left with your ineptitude and lack of creativity.
Originally by: Etho Demerzel The right one is: "Why should they be EXCLUDED from the large gang RR role?"
They wouldn't be "forced" into anything. They would be ALLOWED into that role. Armor battleships can go RR or not as they please. I see no reason whatsover to take this possibility of shield battleships by crippling their ability to use shield transporters.
My scissors can't cut rock! Buff scissors! I should be able to cut rock and obliterate paper simultaneously!
Excluded? What ships are unable to fit shield transporters? Raven Tempest and Scorpion are all able to fit a single transporter. Rokh and maelstrom could also, were they so inclined. Comparatively, the megathron and armageddon have to sacrifice fitting (downgrading to frigate-sized plating) just to fit a single remote rep.
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
Quote:
Translation: I see a FOTM and stamp my feet when all ships do not fit in! Nerf all ships so that we only fly the rookie ships and the only difference is cosmetic.
Translation: Don't nerf my I-win button. Me amarr, me use laz0rs and Remote reps and should be above all other mortals!
I have already stated in this thread that I fly gallente ships. The constant lies are working great for you, keep going.
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
Quote:
Why? Because you said so? You have given no reason whatsoever for this.
I didn't. YOU DID. You said it is a huge advantage, that is so ubber, etc. You seem to think that this advantage is sufficient to balance the RIDICULOUS difference in fitting requirements, between two modules that should serve the same role.
So lets give YOU, armor users, this advantage AND these crippling fitting requirements, and leave us shield users, with the "flavor" of not having this "extremelly large" advantage, but being able to actually USE our remote rep module. Thank you.
Oops, your ignorance is showing. The geddon and mega already have to sacrifice fittings in order to squeeze a remote rep into that last highslot. Geddons have to downgrade to frigate-sized resist modules (ANP) because the cpu use of large remote armor reps are so high. The only ship that really doesn't have to sacrifice to fit RR is the tempest.
Again. You are simply asking for an "i win" button and don't care about game balance.
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
Quote:
My megathron had 90% webs too, does it get it's 90% webs back? If no, why?
That is one of the changes being asked by anyone with half a brain to blaster boats, in ANY blaster thread. Because you know, the web nerf screwed blasters majorly.
Ahhh. So we should arbitrarily throw out 90% webs "just because" Excellent logic. Troll confirmed.
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Aoa Lux
Caldari North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.10.08 21:24:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
Quote:
My megathron had 90% webs too, does it get it's 90% webs back? If no, why?
That is one of the changes being asked by anyone with half a brain to blaster boats, in ANY blaster thread. Because you know, the web nerf screwed blasters majorly.
Hey if we are randomly giving out 90% webs and disregarding game balance, can I have my NOSdomi back?
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slightly sillydude
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Posted - 2009.10.08 21:39:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Gtlzotllh
My megathron had 90% webs too, does it get it's 90% webs back? If no, why?
The reason the minnie recons deserve a web strength bonus is because the combo of scrambler+web is at least marginally effective at keeping a ship still. You can't put a scrambler on a Rapier without utterly defeating the purpose of the ship.
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Zarnak Wulf
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Posted - 2009.10.08 21:45:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Cpt Branko Edited by: Cpt Branko on 08/10/2009 20:09:48 Abolish tier system for sub-BS ships and boost them all. Look, suddenly there is a bazillion of non-useless ships to fly.
Fix roflkets.
Give all AFs a minimum of 3 mids except Retribution which can live with two. Said it all in the AF thread. That and the Roflket fix go a long way to adressing problems with the things.
10% bonus on damp ships seems like a good idea. I don't like the Rapier/Huginn web strength. I'd rather see 75% webs everywhere or some other web change. Tackle shouldn't require specialist ships to work, if it does require specialist ships to work at range. TP is indeed useless and could use a good looking at.
Shield transfers do need a CPU reduction from the currently insane fitting reqs.
I agree with you on most aspects of the AFs. I like the web strength as it is at 60%. It made alot of small ships suddenly viable again. The conversation should be about boosting blasters at this point in time.
I do think the Rapier/Huginn should get a web strength bonus. (and hyena. haha) This would bring back some of their fear factor. And the Curse gets not only a range but also strength bonus to nuets and nos so it's not exactly new territory.
Don't touch my target painters. They're a mainstay on my Thrasher.
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Etho Demerzel
Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone
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Posted - 2009.10.08 21:48:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Gtlzotllh
Because you say it is? No. It is exactly the right question and you are trying to divert attention away from it to further your quest for causing imbalance.
Since then making shield tankers able to remote repair as armor tankers already do would cause "imbalances"? I get it, maybe your definition of "imbalance" is anything that makes your advantage smaller...
Quote:
You see armor ships using remote reps in large gangs. Instead of taking rokhs where they excel and using them as a sniper platform, or ravens in small gang pvp, you want to copy large gang rr and reduce the flavor of eve.
Misuse of the word "flavor" again. So lets see what you are talking here:
- Armor ships are NOT used in sniper role - Armor ships are NOT used in small gang pvp - Armor ships can only be used in RR gangs, so they should be the only ones able to do it, right?
Your arguments are pathetic.
Quote:
This is simply another instance of people calling for heavy-handed nerfs to put a ship into a role in which it does not belong. If your advice was taken it would still not avail you because of the very nature of EVE pvp. You would only be left with your ineptitude and lack of creativity.
So Armor tanked ships belong to the exclusive role of RR and shield tanked don't right? Nice, leave shield transfers as they are, lets instead nerf range, damage and ehp in all armor tanked ships then! That is flavor!
Originally by: Etho Demerzel My scissors can't cut rock! Buff scissors! I should be able to cut rock and obliterate paper simultaneously!
There is no such a thing of paper, rock scissors here. Only in your head. There are two kind of tanking systems, two kind of remote rep systems. The tank systems are almost identical in every practical aspect, EXCEPT for the remote reps. That should be fixed. Period.
Quote:
Excluded? What ships are unable to fit shield transporters? Raven Tempest and Scorpion are all able to fit a single transporter. Rokh and maelstrom could also, were they so inclined. Comparatively, the megathron and armageddon have to sacrifice fitting (downgrading to frigate-sized plating) just to fit a single remote rep.
Now you finally got insane. Really.
1) THERE IS NO SUCH A THING AS FRIGATE-SIZED PLATING. PLATINGS HAVE NO SIZES. 2) The sacrifices you have to make to fit LArge Remote Reps are laughable when compared to the sacrifices you have to make to fit Shield transporters. It is an order of magnitudee asier to fit remote reps. Try harder, please.
Quote:
I have already stated in this thread that I fly gallente ships. The constant lies are working great for you, keep going.
Sure you do. Sure
Quote:
Oops, your ignorance is showing. The geddon and mega already have to sacrifice fittings in order to squeeze a remote rep into that last highslot. Geddons have to downgrade to frigate-sized resist modules (ANP) because the cpu use of large remote armor reps are so high. The only ship that really doesn't have to sacrifice to fit RR is the tempest.
Large Shield transporter II
cpu: 154 (17.6% of total RAVEN cpu) PG: 192 (1.6% of raven PG)
Large Remote Armor Repair System II
cpu: 48 (7.2% of geddon cpu) PG: 660(3.2% of geddon PG)
See something wrong here? Can you REALLY argue that it is harder to fit the LRARS that the Transporter.
Quote:
Again. You are simply asking for an "i win" button and don't care about game balance.
No, YOU are asking to preserve YOURS I-WIN button. Reason BEGS for either to cut the cpu requirements of transporters to HALF of what it is today or to increase cpu requirements of large reps to TWICE of what they are today. You choose...
Quote:
Ahhh. So we should arbitrarily throw out 90% webs "just because" Excellent logic. Troll confirmed.
Just because there are situations where they are needed. Nothing arbitrary with it, btw.. =====
"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
Typhado3
Minmatar Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium Aeternus.
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Posted - 2009.10.08 21:53:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Typhado3 on 08/10/2009 21:53:54
Originally by: Gtlzotllh
Quote: He is talkign about ALL ships in their classes. Like interceptors, for example. Do you know the fastest interceptor is amarr? All minmatar ships should be at least slightly faster than their counterparts of other races. That is not always the case.
wot. Claw - 4x OD2, mwd, 2x aux rig: 5612m/s Sader - 4x OD2, mwd, 2x aux rig: 5601m/s
pr0tip: these are not the WoW forums. You can't lie in your "buff shamans" thread and get away with it.
I said overheating, didn't I?
well same setup again with overheated mwd
claw - 8004 sader - 8004
that's not quite done but you should be able to see our clear speed advantage over amarr right there. Throw in a claymore with the command link, and before you say they aren't common I fly them and so do a hell of a lot of other people.
claw - 9860 sader - 9869
And lastly if you try and put these in a real world situation your gonna need to factor in agility to see who has the advantage. claw (2.9 agility) sader (2.7 agility) kinda obvious to see who's gonna have the advantage in this situation... Honestly though that setup isn't really practical but trying out more practical setups doesn't give the minmatar a speed advantage our disadvantage stays the same.
Minmatar are the speed focused race and our fastest practical ship has a speed advantage of between 11m/s and -9m/s? just shows how insanely crap minmatar are at specialising, usually we get something like dps/tank or nano to compensate. ------------------------------
Just a crazy inventor ccp fix mining agent missions % pls
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Cpt Branko
The Scope
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Posted - 2009.10.08 21:56:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Zarnak Wulf
...
Yeah, I guess you have a point with the Curse & all. The idea of a Huggin/Rapier having the old webs with a strength bonus annoys me, though, since I dislike effective tackle being a specialist affair on basis of principle.
I guess it could live with 75% webs or something. 90%s were stupid tbh.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Etho Demerzel
Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone
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Posted - 2009.10.08 22:01:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Originally by: Zarnak Wulf
...
Yeah, I guess you have a point with the Curse & all. The idea of a Huggin/Rapier having the old webs with a strength bonus annoys me, though, since I dislike effective tackle being a specialist affair on basis of principle.
I guess it could live with 75% webs or something. 90%s were stupid tbh.
The problem is that effective (now not so effective) tackling is what those ships do, it is what their EWAR is about. If they can't do that well, they are basically useless. =====
"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
Lilith Velkor
Minmatar Beyond Divinity Inc Beyond Virginity
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Posted - 2009.10.08 22:18:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 08/10/2009 22:21:55
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
The problem is that effective (now not so effective) tackling is what those ships do, it is what their EWAR is about. If they can't do that well, they are basically useless.
People constantly moan about how one rapier isnt the last word in stopping people from burning back to the gate anymore, and quite honestly I think (as a rapier pilot) thats a very good thing.
The ship was stupidly overpowered when webs were 90%, the only reason people didnt complain all day was it was the bane of nanoships.
Basically today, if you want to keep MWD ships from burning back to a gate, you need a lachesis which gets a scrambler on.
If you want to keep AB ships from burning back, you need the rapier.
If you want to cover both, you need both recons.
In a combat situation off gate, the minmatar recons are about range control / tackle as well as softening targets for torpedoes and large guns, they do both jobs very well, no change is needed. Lets not be hypocrites, a target tackled by a rapier doesnt go anywhere, no matter how it is fit.
60% webs themselves are fine as well, they are perfectly balanced against the speed boost from afterburners, and taking the signature bloom into account against microwarpdrives as well.
If you want total range control ability and the enemy dead in the water (or space) you have to trade in long-range tackle and fit a warp scrambler as well.
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Etho Demerzel
Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone
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Posted - 2009.10.08 22:25:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Lilith Velkor
People constantly moan about how one rapier isnt the last word in stopping people from burning back to the gate anymore, and quite honestly I think (as a rapier pilot) thats a very good thing.
The ship was stupidly overpowered when webs were 90%, the only reason people didnt complain all day was it was the bane of nanoships.
Basically today, if you want to keep MWD ships from burning back to a gate, you need a lachesis which gets a scrambler on.
If you want to keep AB ships from burning back, you need the rapier.
If you want to cover both, you need both recons.
In a combat situation off gate, the minmatar recons are about range control as well as softening targets for torpedoes and large guns, they do both jobs very well, no change is needed.
60% webs themselves are fine as well, they are perfectly balanced against the speed boost from afterburners, and taking the signature bloom into account against microwarpdrives as well.
If you want total range control ability and the enemy dead in the water (or space) you have to trade in long-range tackle and fit a warp scrambler as well.
You are entitled to have you opinion about this, but I strongly disagree. Just to highlight some points:
1) Scrambler and minnie recons in the same phrase is fail. 2) taking two recons to stop a target is ridiculous. Really, a curse or a pilgrim can zero the cap of the target in seconds, a rook or falcon can permajam one target quite easily. Recons are supposed to completely dominate any single target with their racial EWAR. That is how it WAS for minie and gallente recons too. Now both are subpar, because their main EWAR was nerfed into oblivion. =====
"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
Labombecochone
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Posted - 2009.10.08 22:26:00 -
[57]
Give the Caracal an extra low slot!
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Cpt Branko
The Scope
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Posted - 2009.10.08 22:39:00 -
[58]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 08/10/2009 22:40:43 Actually, when I think about it, I think Lilith has it right all around.
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
2) taking two recons to stop a target is ridiculous. Really, a curse or a pilgrim can zero the cap of the target in seconds, a rook or falcon can permajam one target quite easily.
No, what he's saying is this: to really *stop* a MWD-ing target, you need one recon, to stop a AB-ing target, you need another recon (although Rapier/Huggin does still slow you down very significantly, just isn't the "you're going 2m/s now" button it was).
Arazu/Rapier have always worked very well in concert like this (in fact, they were a unimaginably sick combo back in the days). Stopping people is harder now, but they're slower all around now - it's reasonable when you think about it.
Comparing with a Curse is tricky - sure, the Curse is incredibly good solo / very small gang, but long-range tackle is good always, and gives you all sorts of tactical advantages. A Curse can totally disable a single ship which needs capacitor or range, sure - but it can't do very much besides that.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Mopsy Six
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Posted - 2009.10.08 22:53:00 -
[59]
Give Tristan 3 turret slots, nobody in their right mind is going to train for missiles, let alone rockets as Gallente, it's wasted SP in the long run.
Give Incursus some more slots, Breacher, Kestrel and Inqusitor all have 9, why does Incursus have just 8.
Gallente frigates really need some love already! And give me back my SP i had to put into the Punisher.
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Etho Demerzel
Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone
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Posted - 2009.10.08 23:05:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 08/10/2009 23:06:13
Originally by: Cpt Branko
No, what he's saying is this: to really *stop* a MWD-ing target, you need one recon, to stop a AB-ing target, you need another recon (although Rapier/Huggin does still slow you down very significantly, just isn't the "you're going 2m/s now" button it was).
A MWDing target isn't stopped by just shutting its MWD off. A frig for example is still at 400-500 m/s. So an Arazu alone does not really "stop" anything.
A rapier alone can do a little better against an AB target, supposing it has multiple webs fitted. An AB interceptor will still have around 500 m/s overloaded after double webbed, for example. I reckon that it is an extreme case, but other frigs will all be in the 300-400 m/s range. That is hardly stopping a target.
So to stop a MWD target you need both ships. To stop an AB target, well, there is not much you can do...
Imo you don't need a 2 m/s end speed, but at least to bring it bellow 100 would be desireable, in the AB case.
=====
"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
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Allen Ramses
Caldari Red Federation
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Posted - 2009.10.08 23:24:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Gtlzotllh and Etho Demerzel RR and shield transport balance
I think you missed the point. The Shield transporter is where it should be. It is a repair augmenting mod, and a decent one at that. The point is that RR is NOT where it should be. The primary repair system should not require 281% more grid than the augmenting mod while having close to the same performance.
So increase the PG requirements for RR by 350% so that we can stop playing RR BS online?
FAKE EDIT: Am I the only one experiencing forum login issues? I was hoping this was fixed. ____________________ CCP: Catering to the cowards of a cold, harsh universe since November, 2006. |
Gtlzotllh
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Posted - 2009.10.08 23:35:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Allen Ramses I think you missed the point. The Shield transporter is where it should be. It is a repair augmenting mod, and a decent one at that. The point is that RR is NOT where it should be. The primary repair system should not require 281% more grid than the augmenting mod while having close to the same performance.
So increase the PG requirements for RR by 350% so that we can stop playing RR BS online?
Yes! Nerf teamwork! I would much rather encourage blobs and lack of thought!
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
No, YOU are asking to preserve YOURS I-WIN button. Reason BEGS for either to cut the cpu requirements of transporters to HALF of what it is today or to increase cpu requirements of large reps to TWICE of what they are today. You choose...
If shield transporter fittings are made to have the same fitting as RR, the repair needs to occur at the end of the cycle.
Quote: Now you finally got insane. Really.
1) THERE IS NO SUCH A THING AS FRIGATE-SIZED PLATING. PLATINGS HAVE NO SIZES.
CAPSLOCK MAKES MY ARGUMENT STRONGER
Quote: - Armor ships are NOT used in sniper role
Uhh... no? Don't tell me that you are one of those people who tank a sniper ship...
Quote: - Armor ships are NOT used in small gang pvp
They are, but they are forced to sacrifice tank in order to fit damage modules. My shield ships in small gang have a nice bite.
Quote: - Armor ships can only be used in RR gangs, so they should be the only ones able to do it, right?
Who said that? \o/ for more lies. Raven tempest and scorp can already fit shield transfers. There is nothing stopping them from doing such.
Quote:
So Armor tanked ships belong to the exclusive role of RR and shield tanked don't right? Nice, leave shield transfers as they are, lets instead nerf range, damage and ehp in all armor tanked ships then! That is flavor!
Ahhh. So now we are getting somewhere. "nerf all armor tanks" Tell the policeman, where on the doll did the bad megathron touch you?
Quote: Just because there are situations where they are needed. Nothing arbitrary with it, btw.
"Needed" - because I said it is!
Originally by: Typhado3 just shows how insanely crap minmatar are at specialising
Confirming that minmatar are the "focused" race and were never considered to be versatile. I will take my 8x torpedo typhoon and 4x arty naglfar now, thanks.
Quote: An AB interceptor will still have around 500 m/s overloaded after double webbed, for example. I reckon that it is an extreme case, but other frigs will all be in the 300-400 m/s range. That is hardly stopping a target.
And would have a paper tank to go with that 500m/s. Meaning it would get onevollied by a cruiser.
Seriously. You are not going to get your personal iwin button so stop filling this thread with trash.
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Tray LiSans
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Posted - 2009.10.08 23:39:00 -
[63]
I'd have to agree with the comment about the Eagle. It really needs a boost to PG, and to a lesser extent cap. The thing can barely fit a full rack of guns, and if you want anything other than maybe a DCU with those guns you have to fit a RC as well.
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Ghoest
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Posted - 2009.10.08 23:41:00 -
[64]
Its kind of hard to take a complaint post seriously that doesnt mention the Eagle.
Wherever you went - Here you are.
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Guillame Herschel
Gallente NME1
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Posted - 2009.10.08 23:51:00 -
[65]
Edited by: Guillame Herschel on 08/10/2009 23:52:00
Originally by: xxxak FURTHERMORE, the new agility changes (as of about 9 months ago?) mean that the avergae cruiser can warp off before a rapier/huginn can lock on, meaning that at least one slot has to have a sensor booster. That means 1 web or NO tank.
[Huginn, YesWeCan] 3x Arby Assault Launchers 3x D180 T2 autocannons
Y-T8 MWD 3x Stasis Webifier II 2x Sensor Booster II, scan res
1600mm RRT EANM II DCU II
Medium ACR Medium Trimark or a resist (suggest Kinetic)
3x Hammerhead II 2x Hobgoblin II -- He said "The President is near."
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Kail Storm
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.10.09 00:17:00 -
[66]
Edited by: Kail Storm on 09/10/2009 00:18:51 Etho you responded to all of his statements with correct responses but he doesnt want to see that shields should have a place in RR as well.
Since RR is the equiv of the strongest weapon in eve at the moment how does a large caldar or Min fleet keep up with a Amarr or Gal...Awnser is they dont. Im all for flavor and love Amarr but you are crazy if you think a 71% is marginal and worth the Begining of cycle lol...Crazy
Zolith since amarr has snipers that are as good or better than the Rokh and have ships virtually in each class as good or better your argument doesnt hold water RR pushes even a small gang over the edge, of what say a small gang of ravens can do. Why should a Cald pilot or Mael have to convert there ships to RR instead of getting some shield fights?
So I guess your IDea of "FLavor" Is 100 ships Fighting all in RR BS`s Lol If you run, You`ll only die tired :) |
Jaedar Metron
Celestial Warp Ghost Guardians Eych Four Eks Zero Ahr
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Posted - 2009.10.09 00:19:00 -
[67]
I agree to a lot of your points Liang, always have. That being said...
Quote: Prophecy: Khandize it please. Resists + HAM ROF bonus, 50m^3 drone bay/bandwidth, Mmmmmm....
Why should Amarr get RoF + double drone bay while Caldari only get Kinetic dmg for the Drake? There are already people moaning about the Drake being too good, what would happen if this monster ever shows up? (THis is of course assuming it would have 7 launchers like the Drake... )
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Gtlzotllh
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Posted - 2009.10.09 00:31:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Kail Storm
Etho you responded to all of his statements with correct responses but he doesnt want to see that shields should have a place in RR as well.
You should probably check my corp's killboards before spouting off. For 6+ months running, my corp was the only corp in the gal-caldari FW to use shield logistics in gangs. We did it often and we did it well.
Originally by: Kail Storm
Why should a Cald pilot or Mael have to convert there ships to RR instead of getting some shield fights?
dohoho. So you would fit your 8x-gun-active-tanking maelstrom with shield transfers? Going to drop a few guns to do that? And funny that you FAIL to mention both the tempest -and- the typhoon, which are more than able to fly in RR gangs (tempest being able to fly in shield gangs OR armor gangs)
I have already stated that if the fitting requirements are to be brought closer, transporters need to rep at the end of the cycle. Since this is obviously unimportant like you all claim, it is surely an acceptable compromise
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Davinel Lulinvega
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Posted - 2009.10.09 00:32:00 -
[69]
I object to your claim that the tempest is ever worth flying in any situation.
Originally by: CCP Tuxford Now the op looks like a weirdo that can't read kekekeke!
inb4 stealth edit |
Grarr Bexx
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Posted - 2009.10.09 00:37:00 -
[70]
Hm. The Rapier and Huginn predicament is actually a good way to make the Huginn worth flying again. Make it like the Curse and the Pilgrim: One gets an additional web strength bonus, one keeps the original range bonus and the ability to covert cloak
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Davinel Lulinvega
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Posted - 2009.10.09 00:44:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Grarr Bexx Hm. The Rapier and Huginn predicament is actually a good way to make the Huginn worth flying again. Make it like the Curse and the Pilgrim: One gets an additional web strength bonus, one keeps the original range bonus and the ability to covert cloak
Yeah, that's what I suggested.
Originally by: CCP Tuxford Now the op looks like a weirdo that can't read kekekeke!
inb4 stealth edit |
Allen Ramses
Caldari Red Federation
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Posted - 2009.10.09 01:08:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Gtlzotllh Yes! Nerf teamwork! I would much rather encourage blobs and lack of thought!
RR BS gangs are the primary reason to encourage blobs and lack of thought!
You wanna help your buddy out? Fine, but you had better be prepared to dedicate some resources to do so. RR currently does not do this. Using dedicated RR boats to help keep the party alive is teamwork. Everyone fitting RR because it does the same job, but doesn't sacrifice anything but a utility high is beyond imbalanced, and invalidates the purpose of dedicated ships.
Effectiveness needs to be reduced, or fitting needs to be increased, and that's all there is to it! ____________________ CCP: Catering to the cowards of a cold, harsh universe since November, 2006. |
Davinel Lulinvega
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Posted - 2009.10.09 01:12:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Allen Ramses
Originally by: Gtlzotllh Yes! Nerf teamwork! I would much rather encourage blobs and lack of thought!
RR BS gangs are the primary reason to encourage blobs and lack of thought!
You wanna help your buddy out? Fine, but you had better be prepared to dedicate some resources to do so. RR currently does not do this. Using dedicated RR boats to help keep the party alive is teamwork. Everyone fitting RR because it does the same job, but doesn't sacrifice anything but a utility high is beyond imbalanced, and invalidates the purpose of dedicated ships.
Effectiveness needs to be reduced, or fitting needs to be increased, and that's all there is to it!
The sacrifice is having to all sit within spitting distance of each other. Also dedicated rr is still far more effective than rrbs, which is why every decent rr fleet brings guardians along. That hardly invalidates logistics.
Originally by: CCP Tuxford Now the op looks like a weirdo that can't read kekekeke!
inb4 stealth edit |
Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS
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Posted - 2009.10.09 01:20:00 -
[74]
Originally by: baltec1 Missiles launcher slot for the badger mark II please. I have my reasons
Get a Crane. Seriously. -- Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Tier 5 Battleships
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
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Posted - 2009.10.09 01:22:00 -
[75]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 09/10/2009 01:23:51
Originally by: Allen Ramses RR BS gangs are the primary reason to encourage blobs and lack of thought!
You wanna help your buddy out? Fine, but you had better be prepared to dedicate some resources to do so. RR currently does not do this. Using dedicated RR boats to help keep the party alive is teamwork. Everyone fitting RR because it does the same job, but doesn't sacrifice anything but a utility high is beyond imbalanced, and invalidates the purpose of dedicated ships.
Effectiveness needs to be reduced, or fitting needs to be increased, and that's all there is to it!
There's just enough of a kernel of truth in what you say to make me wince. I know it's true, but I don't really want to admit it. Eve is a sandbox, and I'd like to think that it should be possible to fit RR BS's. The question is if they give up enough EHP/DPS to do it.
Maybe the right answer is: - Fix shield or armor RR requirements (normalize around some point so that the fittings are similar even if heavy on different subsystems) - Nerf RR range and boost logistic ships range - Make a rig for increasing RR range, another for RR amount, another to increase cap efficiency, another to increase incoming RR, etc.
I dunno, I know that I would find the Scimitar useful (small gang support), and I find the Basilisk useful (POS repping)... but when things start happening with mass battleships (Armor RR)...... cruisers just are kinda fail against The Big Blob.
I ramble again. Take this post with a grain of salt.
Originally by: David Lulinvega
The sacrifice is having to all sit within spitting distance of each other. Also dedicated rr is still far more effective than rrbs, which is why every decent rr fleet brings guardians along. That hardly invalidates logistics.
I underlined the important part. Notice that it's the only one really welcome? Not that they're likely to turn down an Ony, but I've usually been told to get in a Domi instead.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
Davinel Lulinvega
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Posted - 2009.10.09 01:32:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 09/10/2009 01:23:51
Originally by: Allen Ramses RR BS gangs are the primary reason to encourage blobs and lack of thought!
You wanna help your buddy out? Fine, but you had better be prepared to dedicate some resources to do so. RR currently does not do this. Using dedicated RR boats to help keep the party alive is teamwork. Everyone fitting RR because it does the same job, but doesn't sacrifice anything but a utility high is beyond imbalanced, and invalidates the purpose of dedicated ships.
Effectiveness needs to be reduced, or fitting needs to be increased, and that's all there is to it!
There's just enough of a kernel of truth in what you say to make me wince. I know it's true, but I don't really want to admit it. Eve is a sandbox, and I'd like to think that it should be possible to fit RR BS's. The question is if they give up enough EHP/DPS to do it.
Maybe the right answer is: - Fix shield or armor RR requirements (normalize around some point so that the fittings are similar even if heavy on different subsystems) - Nerf RR range and boost logistic ships range - Make a rig for increasing RR range, another for RR amount, another to increase cap efficiency, another to increase incoming RR, etc.
I dunno, I know that I would find the Scimitar useful (small gang support), and I find the Basilisk useful (POS repping)... but when things start happening with mass battleships (Armor RR)...... cruisers just are kinda fail against The Big Blob.
I ramble again. Take this post with a grain of salt.
Originally by: David Lulinvega
The sacrifice is having to all sit within spitting distance of each other. Also dedicated rr is still far more effective than rrbs, which is why every decent rr fleet brings guardians along. That hardly invalidates logistics.
I underlined the important part. Notice that it's the only one really welcome? Not that they're likely to turn down an Ony, but I've usually been told to get in a Domi instead.
-Liang
That's more just because oneiros' are bad. Scimitars are actually useful compared to basilisks due to speed, sig, and res. The oneiros is just a guardian but worse.
Originally by: CCP Tuxford Now the op looks like a weirdo that can't read kekekeke!
inb4 stealth edit |
Allen Ramses
Caldari Red Federation
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Posted - 2009.10.09 01:36:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Davinel Lulinvega The sacrifice is having to all sit within spitting distance of each other.
That is not a sufficient enough reason to reduce the fitting requirement by such a degree, and you know it!
Quote: Also dedicated rr is still far more effective than rrbs, which is why every decent rr fleet brings guardians along. That hardly invalidates logistics.
3 LRAR will repair about as much damage as a Guardian, and the guardian can't fit anti-BS guns.
Oh, and MARs don't require more than three times the fitting of a MRAR, so why should the LAR? ____________________ CCP: Catering to the cowards of a cold, harsh universe since November, 2006. |
Gtlzotllh
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Posted - 2009.10.09 01:40:00 -
[78]
Quote: - Nerf RR range and boost logistic ships range
RR is 8km and logistics cruisrs are 72km. How much nerfing and boosting do we need to do?
Quote: cruisers just are kinda fail against The Big Blob.
To answer this I point at the pure blind region over the last few weeks. I see guardians listed in 100+ engagements (and not dead ones) on all the killboards...
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Allen Ramses
Caldari Red Federation
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Posted - 2009.10.09 01:52:00 -
[79]
You want a real nerf? Remove RR from non-logistics ships. I would LOVE to see that, but I know it wont happen.
All I really care about is the absurdly low powergrid requirements of LRAR. That's all. ____________________ CCP: Catering to the cowards of a cold, harsh universe since November, 2006. |
AstroPhobic
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2009.10.09 01:55:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Ghoest Its kind of hard to take a complaint post seriously that doesnt mention the Eagle.
Eagle does 100km sniping better than the muninn
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Gtlzotllh
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Posted - 2009.10.09 01:55:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Allen Ramses You want a real nerf? Remove RR from non-logistics ships. I would LOVE to see that, but I know it wont happen.
All I really care about is the absurdly low powergrid requirements of LRAR. That's all.
Your tears, they are delicious.
Dear blizzar-....oops. Dear CCP, some jerks used teamwork in this mmo to defeat my uber solo ship, pls nerf them!
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Allen Ramses
Caldari Red Federation
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Posted - 2009.10.09 02:13:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Gtlzotllh Your tears, they are delicious.
Dear blizzar-....oops. Dear CCP: some jerks, lacking aspergers and a proper neckbeard, formed friends and used teamwork in this mmo to defeat my uber solo ship! pls nerf them!
You know what? I could respond to your asinine post with an equally asinine post, but I'm a far superior person than you will ever be, because I don't use personal attacks, nub. Insert moar hate text here.
But seriously, you REALLY think it is justified for a LRAR to take only 1/3 fitting as a LAR? Please tell me how this absurdly low fitting is justified. Back it up with logical reasons. ____________________ CCP: Catering to the cowards of a cold, harsh universe since November, 2006. |
Gtlzotllh
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Posted - 2009.10.09 02:17:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Allen Ramses
But seriously, you REALLY think it is justified for a LRAR to take only 1/3 fitting as a LAR? Please tell me how this absurdly low fitting is justified. Back it up with logical reasons.
You are the one making the claim that there is an imbalance. The burden of proof rests with you.
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
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Posted - 2009.10.09 02:45:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Gtlzotllh You are the one making the claim that there is an imbalance. The burden of proof rests with you.
Aside from the ebb and flow of your "feelings," why should teamwork be discouraged in EVE? Why should sandbox gameplay be removed and restricted?
You could use this same argument (that you just made) to attempt to justify 8 heatsink geddons or 12km/s nano phoons. Sandbox gameplay isn't a carte blanche. Sandbox gameplay isn't a license to have uber pwn mobiles. There must be limits and restrictions in any sandbox. And truthfully, sandbox gameplay doesn't imply that anything is possible.
Also, there's a pretty huge body of evidence that armor RR is overpowered next to shield RR or local repping or buffer tanking or sig tanking or speed tanking or ... Hell, the only kinds of tanking are cloak tanking and station tanking.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
Allen Ramses
Caldari Red Federation
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Posted - 2009.10.09 02:49:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Gtlzotllh You are the one making the claim that there is an imbalance. The burden of proof rests with you.
Aside from the ebb and flow of your "feelings," why should teamwork be discouraged in EVE? Why should sandbox gameplay be removed and restricted?
I asked you a simple question. You could, you know, answer it.
And I NEVER said teamwork should be discouraged. Tricking your opponent into thinking you are going to do something, but catch him off his guard by having one of your teammates fulfill a role is teamwork. RR BS is not teamwork, it is nothing but collective toughness with no actual coordination, work, or skill other than keep at range. Team without work is not teamwork, it is collective operation. ____________________ CCP: Catering to the cowards of a cold, harsh universe since November, 2006. |
BiggestT
Caldari Amarrian Retribution
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Posted - 2009.10.09 03:00:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Gtlzotllh Edited by: Gtlzotllh on 09/10/2009 02:30:47
Originally by: Allen Ramses
But seriously, you REALLY think it is justified for a LRAR to take only 1/3 fitting as a LAR? Please tell me how this absurdly low fitting is justified. Back it up with logical reasons.
You are the one making the claim that there is an imbalance. The burden of proof rests with you.
Aside from the ebb and flow of your "feelings," why should teamwork be discouraged in EVE? Why should sandbox gameplay be removed and restricted?
Oh wow, enough of your terrible posting already!
Stop hiding behind your crappy, repetitive arguments to try and retain ur advantage, how bout u try and fly a shield bs with rr or use shield rr in a gang, noob. (Saying it shldn't be used in a gang wld make it a useless module, u think thats balance??!)
How wld u like it if ccp suddenly switched the stats for shield and rr around? Stop posting your "dont nerf my shaman" crap. EVE Trivia EVE History
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Gtlzotllh
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Posted - 2009.10.09 03:12:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Allen Ramses
And I NEVER said teamwork should be discouraged. Tricking your opponent into thinking you are going to do something, but catch him off his guard by having one of your teammates fulfill a role is teamwork. RR BS is not teamwork, it is nothing but collective toughness with no actual coordination, work, or skill other than keep at range. Team without work is not teamwork, it is collective operation.
team⋅work ûnoun 1. cooperative or coordinated effort on the part of a group of persons acting together as a team or in the interests of a common cause.
Yea guys, rr bs totally doesn't fall into that definition
Originally by: Allen Ramses I asked you a simple question. You could, you know, answer it.
You made the claim that remote repair is imbalanced with the supporting argument being that you "would love to see them nerfed" I will answer your question when you support your claims with a real argument, not "feelings."
Originally by: BiggestT
Oh wow, enough of your terrible posting already!
Stop hiding behind your crappy, repetitive arguments to try and retain ur advantage, how bout u try and fly a shield bs with rr or use shield rr in a gang, noob.
You should probably check my corp's killboard, bro. Or even check youtube... We used shield logi constantly and did it with style (usually with ZERO losses and outnumbered!) Just because you can't do it, doesn't mean it is broken.
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Davinel Lulinvega
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Posted - 2009.10.09 03:22:00 -
[88]
Originally by: BiggestT "dont nerf my shaman"
I lold. Poor shamans. They got ****ed so hard in burning crusade.
Originally by: CCP Tuxford Now the op looks like a weirdo that can't read kekekeke!
inb4 stealth edit |
Amalinze Tehkat
Out of Order Cult of War
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Posted - 2009.10.09 03:34:00 -
[89]
Your argument that "my corp of 1337 d00ds shield reps, you are all morons" proves the counterpoint perfectly. Morons can RR, it takes 1337 d00ds to shield transfer. Any strategy that hinges upon having as many similarly-fit ships as possible is not sandbox gameplay, it's cookie cutter gameplay, and it's a disgrace to all the things that make eve great that success in any engagement type, especially large fleet battles, might hinge not upon excellent strategy, but upon excellent execution of the one and only viable strategy.
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Gtlzotllh
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Posted - 2009.10.09 04:07:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Amalinze Tehkat Your argument that "my corp of 1337 d00ds shield reps, you are all morons" proves the counterpoint perfectly. Morons can RR, it takes 1337 d00ds to shield transfer.
Wow. If you seriously need to play up a militia corp, no no no, a caldari militia corp as "1337 pvpers" to further your bloodthirst for nerfs... I pity you. If caldari militia can do it, anyone can. People who say otherwise are just crying for their own personal iwin button.
Originally by: Amalinze Tehkat Any strategy that hinges upon having as many similarly-fit ships as possible is not sandbox gameplay, it's cookie cutter gameplay, and it's a disgrace to all the things that make eve great that success in any engagement type, especially large fleet battles, might hinge not upon excellent strategy, but upon excellent execution of the one and only viable strategy.
Only one viable strategy? wtf? It's called min-maxing. Sniper fleets (which are a great counter to RR bs fleets, btw. I heard ROKHS fly in these gangs c/d?) do this also, I guess we should nerf snipers?
When you have a large amount of players grouped together, they typically need to focus into a specific role in order to maximize potential effectiveness. There will be support ships providing tackle, warpins, scouting, etc. but most of the time, the majority of any successful large fleet will be roughly similar.
Definitions of sandbox game on the Web: * A game with nonlinear gameplay that presents players with challenges that can be completed in a number of different sequences.
Sniper fleets, roaming bomber gangs, hac gangs, rr bs gangs, inty gangs... these all sound like different ways to pvp to me. And considering that bombers and snipers quite often decimate rr bs gangs, it doesn't sound like rr bs are "the only option." Sandbox.
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Cadius Vect
CARDASSIANS
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Posted - 2009.10.09 04:20:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Gtlzotllh Edited by: Gtlzotllh on 09/10/2009 02:01:27
Originally by: Allen Ramses You want a real nerf? Remove RR from non-logistics ships. I would LOVE to see that, but I know it wont happen.
All I really care about is the absurdly low powergrid requirements of LRAR. That's all.
Your tears, they are delicious.
Dear blizzar-....oops. Dear CCP: some jerks, lacking aspergers and a proper neckbeard, formed friends and used teamwork in this mmo to defeat my uber solo ship! pls nerf them!
As someone with both aspergers and a proper neckbeard I resent this statement. -----------------------------------------------------------
Killboard: http://www.battleclinic.com/eve_online/pk/view/player-Cadius+Vect-kills.html |
BiggestT
Caldari Amarrian Retribution
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Posted - 2009.10.09 04:39:00 -
[92]
Edited by: BiggestT on 09/10/2009 04:40:14
Originally by: Gtlzotllh
You should probably check my corp's killboard, bro. Or even check youtube... We used shield logi constantly and did it with style (usually with ZERO losses and outnumbered!) Just because you can't do it, doesn't mean it is broken.
You're reminiscent of those guys running around in 17km/s vagas yelling at ppl for wanting balance, saying that, "Its anti-blob, dont nerf it waaa"
And nice way to go twist my words. I bet YOU have never flown a shield rr bs before and that YOU have only seen it used on a basilisk by your teammate(pretty much the only ship to use sub-bs shield rr to decent effect).
And last I checked, I've flown basi's before and enjoy it, but it has nothing to do with LST's in the broader context.
The tears from ur eyes will be sweet when ccp inevitably balance RR. EVE Trivia EVE History
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Alt Tabbed
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Posted - 2009.10.09 04:42:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Cadius Vect
As someone with both aspergers and a proper neckbeard I resent this statement.
I would fit a proper neck beard(PNB) but it requires too much chin to be of much use. Some may say that a PNB is equal to the effectiveness to a good case of aspergers because you can see it coming, but with the chin needs it just doesn't make since to use them.
So we're faced with a a bunch of mindless aspergers gangs roaming the halls. Oh well.
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Gtlzotllh
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Posted - 2009.10.09 04:50:00 -
[94]
Originally by: BiggestT
And nice way to go twist my words. I bet YOU have never flown a shield rr bs before and that YOU have only seen it used on a basilisk by your teammate(pretty much the only ship to use sub-bs shield rr to decent effect).
And last I checked, I've flown basi's before and enjoy it, but it has nothing to do with LST's in the broader context.
The tears from ur eyes will be sweet when ccp inevitably balance RR.
Uhh. I fly scimitar, ty. And I have used RST on tempests in shield RT gangs in the past. Try again
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Cadius Vect
CARDASSIANS
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Posted - 2009.10.09 04:58:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Alt Tabbed
Originally by: Cadius Vect
As someone with both aspergers and a proper neckbeard I resent this statement.
I would fit a proper neck beard(PNB) but it requires too much chin to be of much use. Some may say that a PNB is equal to the effectiveness to a good case of aspergers because you can see it coming, but with the chin needs it just doesn't make since to use them.
So we're faced with a a bunch of mindless aspergers gangs roaming the halls. Oh well.
What? lol... -----------------------------------------------------------
Killboard: http://www.battleclinic.com/eve_online/pk/view/player-Cadius+Vect-kills.html |
BiggestT
Caldari Amarrian Retribution
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Posted - 2009.10.09 05:07:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Gtlzotllh
Originally by: BiggestT
And nice way to go twist my words. I bet YOU have never flown a shield rr bs before and that YOU have only seen it used on a basilisk by your teammate(pretty much the only ship to use sub-bs shield rr to decent effect).
And last I checked, I've flown basi's before and enjoy it, but it has nothing to do with LST's in the broader context.
The tears from ur eyes will be sweet when ccp inevitably balance RR.
Uhh. I fly scimitar, ty. And I have used RST on tempests in shield RT gangs in the past. Try again
Before you post any further, I need to know ur main's name for km checks as you seem too scared to post with ur main on an internet forum (I wonder why?)
Either that or ur just a month old noob spurting crap on these forums, wldn't be that surprising tbh EVE Trivia EVE History
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Gtlzotllh
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Posted - 2009.10.09 05:51:00 -
[97]
Originally by: BiggestT Before you post any further, I need to know ur main's name for km checks as you seem too scared to post with ur main on an internet forum (I wonder why?)
Either that or ur just a month old noob spurting crap on these forums, wldn't be that surprising tbh
Confirming that the ceo is "just some month old noob" There are tons of people in FW who will testify that our reps have saved them on countless occasions.
Because you made it a point to introduce yourself by raging out and foaming insults, I'm going to make it a point NOT to reveal who my main is.
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BiggestT
Caldari Amarrian Retribution
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Posted - 2009.10.09 06:00:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Gtlzotllh
Originally by: BiggestT Before you post any further, I need to know ur main's name for km checks as you seem too scared to post with ur main on an internet forum (I wonder why?)
Either that or ur just a month old noob spurting crap on these forums, wldn't be that surprising tbh
Confirming that the ceo is "just some month old noob" There are tons of people in FW who will testify that our reps have saved them on countless occasions.
Because you made it a point to introduce yourself by raging out and foaming insults, I'm going to make it a point NOT to reveal who my main is.
Learn 2 read. I already said basi's can work ok, its shield rr on other ships that sucks (yet armour rr is great on logi's and bs..)
And the noob comment is explaining that the one you post with as a one month old noob, so u can only proove that much experience. And u started posting with this noob alt/w.e before i got here
And u obviously have no faith in your argument else you'd post on your main, so we cld check ur credibility of YOUR killboard stats, not the corps.
So it sounds like u never flew a shield rr bs unless you show proof EVE Trivia EVE History
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Gtlzotllh
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Posted - 2009.10.09 06:05:00 -
[99]
Originally by: BiggestT
Learn 2 read. I already said basi's can work ok, its shield rr on other ships that sucks (yet armour rr is great on logi's and bs..)
Originally by: BiggestT how bout u try and fly a shield bs with rr or use shield rr in a gang, noob.
Originally by: BiggestT And the noob comment is explaining that the one you post with as a one month old noob, so u can only proove that much experience. And u started posting with this noob alt/w.e before i got here
And u obviously have no faith in your argument else you'd post on your main, so we cld check ur credibility of YOUR killboard stats, not the corps.
So it sounds like u never flew a shield rr bs unless you show proof
Or maybe I just like this sweet hood. :)
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Psyflame
North Eastern Swat
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Posted - 2009.10.09 06:12:00 -
[100]
Originally by: BiggestT
And u obviously have no faith in your argument else you'd post on your main, so we cld check ur credibility of YOUR killboard stats, not the corps.
So it sounds like u never flew a shield rr bs unless you show proof
As a former corpmate I will say that gtlz's dual-boxing scimmies have saved my shield canes and hamdrakes several times before. I have also seen him in a shield repping tempest. (btw, nice 19 kills you have there on the amarr killboard.)
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BiggestT
Caldari Amarrian Retribution
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Posted - 2009.10.09 06:22:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Psyflame
Originally by: BiggestT
And u obviously have no faith in your argument else you'd post on your main, so we cld check ur credibility of YOUR killboard stats, not the corps.
So it sounds like u never flew a shield rr bs unless you show proof
As a former corpmate I will say that gtlz's dual-boxing scimmies have saved my shield canes and hamdrakes several times before. I have also seen him in a shield repping tempest. (btw, nice 19 kills you have there on the amarr killboard.)
Ahh yeah, last I checked I'm a casual gamer, you know, like I don't need to pvp every waking hour of my life on an MMO?
And if you support that gtlz's used shield rr then good for you, but I can bet which one he'd prefer an armour rr bs or a shield rr bs? xD, still proving that his argument fails EVE Trivia EVE History
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Durethia
Department of Defence Prismatic Refraction
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Posted - 2009.10.09 07:13:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
- Enyo: Needs something to distinguish it from the Ishkur. Like more damage.
The Ishkur is nice, but the Enyo does way more damage than the Ishkur. At least it can. Typical Ishkur fit is with ion blasters (no bonuses) and 5 light T2 drones. Typical Enyo is with 125mm T2 rail guns, however I wouldn't get any frigate too close to a blaster Enyo with an additional rocket/launcher.
A Neutron blaster Enyo can really throw a party.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2009.10.09 08:09:00 -
[103]
There seems to be more than a few people crying in this thread at the prospect of the PG requirements of LRARs being increased to about 4400 PG, to balance them with LSTs. I don't see why they're so upset by the thought of a better balanced Eve, one where shield RR BS gangs are as viable as armour RR BS. Maybe they're just whiners?
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Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.10.09 08:11:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Gypsio III There seems to be more than a few people crying in this thread at the prospect of the PG requirements of LRARs being increased to about 4400 PG, to balance them with LSTs. I don't see why they're so upset by the thought of a better balanced Eve, one where shield RR BS gangs are as viable as armour RR BS. Maybe they're just whiners?
Indeed. They can't stand the fact that their easy to pull off armor RR will now need some thought rather then just slapping it on because its easy. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2009.10.09 08:14:00 -
[105]
You're probably right, Sidus. I know that it'll hurt me, because I use Typhoon and armour-Raven, but I'm happy to take a personal nerf if it means that Eve is a better balanced, more diverse game, with more choices and compromises made at fitting rather than just slinging on the same old fit.
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irion felpamy
Minmatar HellJumpers Corp Tread Alliance
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Posted - 2009.10.09 08:28:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Guillame Herschel Edited by: Guillame Herschel on 08/10/2009 23:52:00
Originally by: xxxak FURTHERMORE, the new agility changes (as of about 9 months ago?) mean that the avergae cruiser can warp off before a rapier/huginn can lock on, meaning that at least one slot has to have a sensor booster. That means 1 web or NO tank.
[Huginn, YesWeCan] 3x Arby Assault Launchers 3x D180 T2 autocannons
Y-T8 MWD 3x Stasis Webifier II 2x Sensor Booster II, scan res
1600mm RRT EANM II DCU II
Medium ACR Medium Trimark or a resist (suggest Kinetic)
3x Hammerhead II 2x Hobgoblin II
congratulations with no point you just webbed him into warp.
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Jacob Flanders
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Posted - 2009.10.09 08:56:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Gtlzotllh
Comparatively, the megathron and armageddon have to sacrifice fitting (downgrading to frigate-sized plating) just to fit a single remote rep.
Standard megathron RR fit for my alliance includes 2x1600mm, 2xEANM2, 2x magstabs, 7x350mm and an LRAR. Same for geddon, except that it has room for 3 heatsinks.
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irion felpamy
Minmatar HellJumpers Corp Tread Alliance
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Posted - 2009.10.09 08:59:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Jacob Flanders
Originally by: Gtlzotllh
Comparatively, the megathron and armageddon have to sacrifice fitting (downgrading to frigate-sized plating) just to fit a single remote rep.
Standard megathron RR fit for my alliance includes 2x1600mm, 2xEANM2, 2x magstabs, 7x350mm and an LRAR. Same for geddon, except that it has room for 3 heatsinks.
Fitting 350mm rails to a geddon is pretty daft you know.
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Jacob Flanders
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Posted - 2009.10.09 09:03:00 -
[109]
Originally by: irion felpamy
Fitting 350mm rails to a geddon is pretty daft you know.
Didn't you know? It's the secret sauce of doom.
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Jacob Holland
Gallente Weyland-Vulcan Industries
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Posted - 2009.10.09 12:39:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Liang Nuren - Low tier frigates: Make them all equivalent to highest tier frigs. Increase frig locking range.... seriously wtf?
Particularly the Merlin. It's stupid that the range bonused frigate is significantly outranged by the Kestrel, mostly because the Kestrel can lock from 40km while the poor old Merlin can only manage 30km.
Quote: - Prophecy: Khandize it please. Resists + HAM ROF bonus, 50m^3 drone bay/bandwidth, Mmmmmm....
Boost the Proph by all means... but don't do that to it! Firstly Khanid is T2 only, secondly look at the Damnation and then downgrade its resists and bonuses to T1... Leave the Proph as a gunboat but adjust it so that it's the tanky competition to the Harb.
Quote: - Augoror: This, I think, is the most useless cruiser in game. That says something with the lolicose out there.
Niche value but not useless. If you're Ospreying a POS for example an Auguror can keep several Ospreys running an additional transfer - it's not much but in that case it's more valuable than another Osprey.
Quote: - Retribution: Hello 2 mid slots plx?
Leave the Retri alone! 1 Mid means that you can't solo in it... It doesn't make it useless, it doesn't break it. The Retri is a fantastic little ship and I can't see any homogenisation which would not be detrimental to it.
- Myrmidon: Change its Drone bonus to follow the rules for the Combat Drone Operation skill (applying to scout drones only), increase it to 20%/level (giving it the equivalent of 20 unbonused medium drones to the Vexor's 15 and the Dominix's 15 unbonused heavies) and let it sit in a middle ground again. Its Bandwidth could even be increased again because the unbonused heavies wouldn't put it up at Domi levels of drone damage anyway.
- Eos: Got so heavily overnerfed it just isn't funny. Why bother flying one most of the time when you could use a Damnation or a Claymore. Give it back its midslot advantage, give it a tank which is actually worth something and consider the following...
- Sentry Drones: Reduce Bandwidth required to 20MBit. Certain ships could then use Sentries effectively without making them excessively available. For example, the Eos running 5 Sentries is not without value in fleet combat - but it's significantly less useful as a solopwnmobile than the old heavy drone version was. It also allows more options with drone bay adjustment than the usual which (particularly given the nature of sentry drones) allows for another level of evaluation and choice in fitting.
- Medium Drones: Should track a bit better than heavies... who had that idea? --
Originally by: cordy
Respect to IAC .Your one of the few people who truly deserve to own and live in the space you are in.
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Endless Subversion
The Accursed
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Posted - 2009.10.09 13:29:00 -
[111]
I'm very much against an increase in web strength on any ship, especially a range bonused one.
90% webs were really broken let's not go bringing them back. I wouldn't be against seeing an extra mid slot on the Huginn at the cost of a high.
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Roemy Schneider
Vanishing Point.
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Posted - 2009.10.09 14:06:00 -
[112]
Originally by: Endless Subversion I'm very much against an increase in web strength on any ship, especially a range bonused one.
90% webs were really broken let's not go bringing them back. I wouldn't be against seeing an extra mid slot on the Huginn at the cost of a high.
well... you know i do object to these things aswell, especially on that 10%/lvl approach. but could a 5%/lvl be sold to you? and maybe only on the huginn? (see curse//pilgrim) - putting the gist back into logistics |
ropnes
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Posted - 2009.10.09 14:30:00 -
[113]
Originally by: Gypsio III There seems to be more than a few people crying in this thread at the prospect of the PG requirements of LRARs being increased to about 4400 PG, to balance them with LSTs. I don't see why they're so upset by the thought of a better balanced Eve, one where shield RR BS gangs are as viable as armour RR BS. Maybe they're just whiners?
Yes lets make everything the same Make the rep amount on local tanks the same too, make shield boosters boost at the end of their cycle, make the damage formula the same for all weapons
I mean, it should all be equal, right?
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Tagami Wasp
Caldari Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2009.10.09 14:43:00 -
[114]
Edited by: Tagami Wasp on 09/10/2009 14:45:26
Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 08/10/2009 16:29:37 I've been around in Eve for a while.... and there's some injustices I'd love to see fixed. This is something of a one-off to blow some steam off after work, but I thought I'd share.
- Low tier frigates: Make them all equivalent to highest tier frigs. Increase frig locking range.... seriously wtf? ... - Hawk: CRIPES WTF USELESS SHIP ALREADY JEEZE FIX IT! - Vengeance/Malediction: Shouldn't we have fixed roflkets by now? ... - Craptor/Ares/Eris: Sigh. Terrible T2 ships is just such a waste. ... - Light Dictors: I hated you for the dictor speed nerf. Now the 'real' nano nerf hit and I hate you even more. - Tier 1 BCs: Make them Tier 2. The skill difference between BC1 and BC2 is laughable. ... -Liang
Agreeing with Liang for ships that I would like to be fixed. Also. All PG stats on missile ships is crap, sometime CCP should look into that and either lower requirement or up the PG. Not being able to fit HAMs to ships that supposedly have bonuses for that weapon system is pathetic. I am looking at you Caracal and Nighthawk.
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Ed: If you're wondering why I left the Tempest off: I'm withholding judgment on the Tempest until I've seen the final iteration of the Projectile changes. It would be a mistake to balance the Tempest before projectiles are fixed.
Will pass judgment on Raven and Typhoon once missiles are fixed also.
FIX ROCKETS. please. with sugar on top. I'll buy you hookers and blow if you do. I really will.
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slightly sillydude
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Posted - 2009.10.09 14:46:00 -
[115]
Originally by: Endless Subversion I'm very much against an increase in web strength on any ship, especially a range bonused one.
90% webs were really broken let's not go bringing them back. I wouldn't be against seeing an extra mid slot on the Huginn at the cost of a high.
A web and a scram now is roughly the same speed reduction one of the old webs (against mwd ships at least, but seriously, who uses an afterburner). A web strength boosted Huginn would just be able to do it from range, which is exactly the point of the ship. If you don't like that then come up with some entirely different compelling form of ewar for minnie.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2009.10.09 14:58:00 -
[116]
Originally by: ropnes
Originally by: Gypsio III There seems to be more than a few people crying in this thread at the prospect of the PG requirements of LRARs being increased to about 4400 PG, to balance them with LSTs. I don't see why they're so upset by the thought of a better balanced Eve, one where shield RR BS gangs are as viable as armour RR BS. Maybe they're just whiners?
Yes lets make everything the same.
Oh yeah, you're right, it's good to have diversity of fitting requirements of modules. It's good to have one form of BS RR so prohibitive in fittings that it's basically never used, meaning that all RR BS are the same armour-tanked ships... er... hang on... no, that's not diversity, that's monotony and you're an idiot.
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Nalena Arlath
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Posted - 2009.10.09 15:04:00 -
[117]
Originally by: Gtlzotllh All the other gunships (omen, ferox, etc) recently got an extra turret slot, why were these fierce frigates forgotten?
I'm inclined to slap you with a soggy pair of socks!
Omen got an extra turret slot, yes...
... did it get more powergrid to actually be able to fit that 5th turret?
And no, I don't count fitting downsized, small turrets, as being able to fit 5 turrets.
Anyways, all the T1 cruisers are just 2-3 day waste of time and isk until you can fly a BC. They could really just remove all the T1 cruisers from the game, and I don't think anyone would even notice.
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BiggestT
Caldari Amarrian Retribution
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Posted - 2009.10.09 15:37:00 -
[118]
Originally by: Gypsio III no, that's not diversity, that's monotony and you're an idiot.
But homogonisation!!!!1111 EVE Trivia EVE History
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2009.10.09 15:49:00 -
[119]
Edited by: Gypsio III on 09/10/2009 15:50:12
Damn... homogeny... that's the word I was looking for.
Actually, it isn't. It's homogeneity.
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Cpt Branko
The Scope
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Posted - 2009.10.09 15:55:00 -
[120]
Originally by: Gypsio III Edited by: Gypsio III on 09/10/2009 15:50:33
Originally by: ropnes
Originally by: Gypsio III There seems to be more than a few people crying in this thread at the prospect of the PG requirements of LRARs being increased to about 4400 PG, to balance them with LSTs. I don't see why they're so upset by the thought of a better balanced Eve, one where shield RR BS gangs are as viable as armour RR BS. Maybe they're just whiners?
Yes lets make everything the same.
Oh yeah, you're right, it's good to have diversity of fitting requirements of modules. It's good to have one form of BS RR so prohibitive in fittings that it's basically never used, meaning that all RR BS are the same armour-tanked ships... er... hang on... no, that's not diversity, that's homogeneity and you're an idiot.
Rebalancing shield transporters to be reasonable to fit: yes please. Making both unreasonably stupid to fit: no please.
Everyone in gank+buffer BS of random type is about zero improvement over everyone in RR BS except you just melt faster. Local tank will NEVER be used in the gang sizes you use RRs at now, because trimarks+plates+damage mods > whatever crap repping you can muster.
Armour RR is fine as is, shield isn't.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
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Thenoran
Caldari Pelican.
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Posted - 2009.10.09 16:36:00 -
[121]
Edited by: Thenoran on 09/10/2009 16:37:22 My list
The Omen needs a CPU and PG boost, you can't even properly fit it with T2 gear and heat sinks without running out of CPU or having to use only ANPs.
Legion needs its non-drone-specific subsystems to give it a small drone bay as well as maybe another turret as the damage on it is just way too low for the price tag. Both the Loki and the Proteus get these, and the Tengu has missiles, why does the Legion need to be left without any practical anti-frigate/interceptor weapons?
Loki's engineering subsystems need to provide more PG, you can't fit Artillery on it with the current ones (the specific power core one excepted).
Hawk needs the shield boost bonus transferred to shield HP bonus and the rocket bonus switched to a Standard Missile bonus. Raptor needs more powergrid and maybe swap the turret slots for missile slots or give it proper bonuses for the turret slots.
Maller could do with a tiny drone bay (15m3 or so?).
Deimos needs a 4th mid, more powergrid and maybe even a 6th turret slot so that it's worth getting over a Brutix.
Malediction should get the Rocket bonus swapped for Standard Missiles (or get a serious range bonus to rockets).
Muninn needs two low slots swapped for two mid slots as the resistances it has are for omni-shield tanking.
Cyclone needs a small CPU bonus so that it can properly fit large shield boosters and really use that booster bonus.
Rokh needs improved capacitor, it can barely fire 8 large rails without serious cap issues.
Maybe give Retribution/Coercer a 2nd mid.
Maybe remove the RoF penalty on Destroyers, as their HP is laughable so they should do loads of damage to compensate (or boost their HP and keep the penalty).
Boost roflkets to the point where we can all call them Rockets again whilst being a useful and practical weapon system. Damage, range and explosion velocity all need a major boost. Only the tiniest drone should get any damage reduction if hit by a Rocket.
Procurer should have 2000m3 cargo space (Retriever 3000m3 atleast) and a 60% bonus to the yield of Veldspar and Scordite. That way it becomes a viable mining platform for new miners whilst somewhat coming in touch with what the Skiff does.
That's it for now I think...
Don't agree on the Khanidification of the Prophecy, we already have the Damnation. Instead, swap the laser capacitor bonus for a laser damage bonus and make it a mini-Abbadon. ------------------------ Low-sec is like sailing along the coast of Somalia...
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Endless Subversion
The Accursed
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Posted - 2009.10.09 16:41:00 -
[122]
Originally by: Roemy Schneider
well... you know i do object to these things aswell, especially on that 10%/lvl approach. but could a 5%/lvl be sold to you? and maybe only on the huginn? (see curse//pilgrim)
I'm against any web strength increase. It's bad enough 2 maraduers and 3 faction ships (one a frigate!) have them but at least they're all expensive enough that people are going to be hesitant to use them, AND they aren't range bonused so they're going to have to be close to the action (and thus danger) to use them.
The web nerf opened up whole classes of ships for day to day pvp. Specifically because being webbed was no longer instant death. Undoing this (by adding a readily available ship t2 ship with t2 fittings that has stronger webs) brings back the same old problems.
Huginns and rapiers are relatively survivable ships, they typically engage near the edge of disruptor range, can web way outside counter-webbing or scram range (and way outside disruptor range if point isn't an issue) and are fast with a good resist layout.
Run-of-the-mill t2 webs on t2 recon hulls that offer massive ranges AND stronger webs are (imo) too powerful. Even if they're 'only' webbing for 75% instead of 90%. As it stands, the ability to negatively impact a target's speed from well outside the range they can return the favor is very strong.
I question why we need more powerful webs.
Currently 2x webs brings a mwding target down to just over base speed (5*1.25*.4*.4 = 1 [i realize ignoring stacking]) and that's pretty strong as is. Player piloting ought to be worth something, tactically, in a fight. The more movement impairing effects there are at long ranges the less options pilots have.
The rapier and the huginn already have the longest snare effect out there. Nothing beats the range at which they can slow targets down. This needs to be balanced by how MUCH they can slow them down. Otherwise they go back to being the absolute last word on tackle in basically ALL situations, where as now they have a slightly more limited role.
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Allen Ramses
Caldari Red Federation
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Posted - 2009.10.09 16:49:00 -
[123]
Originally by: Cpt Branko Rebalancing shield transporters to be reasonable to fit: yes please. Making both unreasonably stupid to fit: no please.
Everyone in gank+buffer BS of random type is about zero improvement over everyone in RR BS except you just melt faster. Local tank will NEVER be used in the gang sizes you use RRs at now, because trimarks+plates+damage mods > whatever crap repping you can muster.
Armour RR is fine as is, shield isn't.
Making them "unreasonably stupid to fit" depends on your definition of unreasonably stupid. If the primary reason why RR needs to be 1/3 the fitting of a near equally performing local rep is that ships will "melt faster" otherwise, that is unreasonably stupid. The ability to fit a nice tank n gank setup, and then adding an RR in the utility high without needing to worry about fitting, is unreasonably stupid. People need to think about their fitting in relation to the well being of their gang. Shield Transporters require their users to do this, Remote Repairers don't.
Shield RR is fine as is, Armor RR is not. ____________________ CCP: Catering to the cowards of a cold, harsh universe since November, 2006. |
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
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Posted - 2009.10.09 16:52:00 -
[124]
Originally by: Thenoran The Omen needs a CPU and PG boost, you can't even properly fit it with T2 gear and heat sinks without running out of CPU or having to use only ANPs.
Yeah, the Omen is pretty f-ing bad. Best fit I can come up with is something like: 5 FMP II (Scorch) 10mn MWD I, LSE II, J5 Disruptor 2 HS II, F85 DC, 2 Nano II 2 Energy Locus, Anti-EM
It may not be exact, but it's pretty close. There's a way to squeeze on a 800 plate but it requires a 5% CPU or 5% PG implant IIRC. The fittings here are very very underwhelming.
Quote: Hawk needs the shield boost bonus transferred to shield HP bonus and the rocket bonus switched to a Standard Missile bonus.
The Hawk has a std missile bonus... ? Are you talking about the range bonus? Yeah, trade it for a damage bonus or something.
Quote: Raptor needs more powergrid and maybe swap the turret slots for missile slots or give it proper bonuses for the turret slots.
Just needs more fittings.
Quote: Deimos needs a 4th mid, more powergrid and maybe even a 6th turret slot so that it's worth getting over a Brutix.
Either of those would work, but where are you going to come up with the slot for it?
Quote: Malediction should get the Rocket bonus swapped for Standard Missiles (or get a serious range bonus to rockets).
JUST FIX ROCKETS. Otherwise, take your ROF bonus and switch it to an EM damage bonus like Caldari does for Kinetic.
Quote: Muninn needs two low slots swapped for two mid slots as the resistances it has are for omni-shield tanking.
WWHHHAAAAATTT?!!?!? No, -2 highs, +2 mids, or -2 highs, +1 mid, +1 low, or -2 highs, +2 lows.... doesn't really matter either way but removing 2 lows is like *ANOTHER* kick in the nuts. I didn't want any tracking enhancers or a damage control anyway.
Quote: Cyclone needs a small CPU bonus so that it can properly fit large shield boosters and really use that booster bonus.
Sure, I'll take that.... but I'd really like to see the tier system go away entirely.
Quote: Maybe give Retribution/Coercer a 2nd mid.
1 mid slot ships are fail. :|
Quote: Maybe remove the RoF penalty on Destroyers, as their HP is laughable so they should do loads of damage to compensate (or boost their HP and keep the penalty).
Remove the ROF penalty and shrink their sig radius. They're unnecessarily huge.
Quote:
Procurer should have 2000m3 cargo space (Retriever 3000m3 atleast) and a 60% bonus to the yield of Veldspar and Scordite. That way it becomes a viable mining platform for new miners whilst somewhat coming in touch with what the Skiff does.
No comment, the only thing I've ever mind was mercoxite I think... and I was in an Osprey or something.
Quote: Don't agree on the Khanidification of the Prophecy, we already have the Damnation. Instead, swap the laser capacitor bonus for a laser damage bonus and make it a mini-Abbadon.
I could go for that too, but I'd like to see a T1 HAM platform for newer Amarr players. I doubt it would be terribly overpowered. :)
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
Endless Subversion
The Accursed
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Posted - 2009.10.09 17:01:00 -
[125]
Edited by: Endless Subversion on 09/10/2009 17:02:10 As for the OP:
All t1 cruisers that aren't the rupture, thorax, vexor, caracal, stabber, blackbird. The omen, in particular, is complete and utter garbage.
Any ship with 1x mid. What a joke that is, especially on very small hulls.
Prophecy. By far the worst of all the BCs. Basically all the rest can be decent, while this ships is crap. HAM/armor boat idea has me pretty excited. Possible minor ferox buff too.
Sac. - What is the point of this ship? Tank/Gank combo on this ship is nearly impossible. Using HAMs on it is suicide and it's outclassed by drakes, cerbs and zealots in basically any conceivable role.
Curse - Low, drone based dps (destructible, travel time) on a hull built to operate at mid ranges, with amarr shield resists (so bad), 6 mids and 4 lows, the base speed of a BC and only cap warfare to dictate range. Ship gets WORSE with more ships in gang, is super vulnerable to tackle frigs (hello 1x small nos) and lacks a reason to be in gang. Oh, and the cap boosters are standard on a huge number of ships which is a big kick in the nuts to the curse. It's the ultimate solo ship on paper, but can't actually hold targets down (no realistic web/scram options) is too slow (good luck maintaining range on more than one BC) and takes all of eternity to actually kill something.
Deimos - A faster, more agile brutix that operates at point blank range and a huge markup of cost and a fraction of the survivability. That's an awful idea.
Eagle/Muninn - Sniper role is too narrow and ship bonuses/layouts make these **** poor for other roles. Needs an effective mid range role like the zealot.
Also, 100% with Gypsio III on this. Shield transfers are unusable as they stand on basically anything besides logi ships yet armor transfers are cake. This is dumb.
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Renarla
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Posted - 2009.10.09 17:06:00 -
[126]
Originally by: Endless Subversion
Deimos - A faster, more agile brutix that operates at point blank range and a huge markup of cost and a fraction of the survivability. That's an awful idea.
Faster, more agile? Hardly. I don't understand how the Deimos has survived in the database as long as it has in it's current state. It is by a wide, wide, wide margin the absolute worst HAC. A Brutix does absolutely everything a Deimos does better, and at a fraction of the cost. A Deimos can not snipe, it can not gank, it can not tank. The Deimos needs to be more like proposed Vigilant in Dominion- 4 mids, PG to actually fit blasters and a 1600mm plate and MWD, and it should get a speed boost to be the 3rd fastest HAC. (Muninn and Vaga obviously being the first two) However, on another note, I now have one of those annoying sigs. |
Redora
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.10.09 17:14:00 -
[127]
Quote:
Quote: Deimos needs a 4th mid, more powergrid and maybe even a 6th turret slot so that it's worth getting over a Brutix.
Either of those would work, but where are you going to come up with the slot for it?
If just the 4th mid, drop the 'utility' high slot to mid. Give it the same PG as is being given to the Vigilant in Dominion as well, so one can actually FIT things to it.
Originally by: Renarla
Faster, more agile? Hardly. I don't understand how the Deimos has survived in the database as long as it has in it's current state. It is by a wide, wide, wide margin the absolute worst HAC. A Brutix does absolutely everything a Deimos does better, and at a fraction of the cost. A Deimos can not snipe, it can not gank, it can not tank. The Deimos needs to be more like proposed Vigilant in Dominion- 4 mids, PG to actually fit blasters and a 1600mm plate and MWD, and it should get a speed boost to be the 3rd fastest HAC. (Muninn and Vaga obviously being the first two)
Exactly. I've had a Vigilant for a while, and I'm looking forward to the 8.75 effective turrets it'll have come Dominion. Oh, and finally being able to fit it will be nice too.
Quote:
Anyone have any spoons I can borrow? If I have to spoon-feed any more players, I'll have to eat my Wheaties with a fork.
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Thenoran
Caldari Pelican.
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Posted - 2009.10.09 20:01:00 -
[128]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Quote: Muninn needs two low slots swapped for two mid slots as the resistances it has are for omni-shield tanking.
WWHHHAAAAATTT?!!?!? No, -2 highs, +2 mids, or -2 highs, +1 mid, +1 low, or -2 highs, +2 lows.... doesn't really matter either way but removing 2 lows is like *ANOTHER* kick in the nuts. I didn't want any tracking enhancers or a damage control anyway
Removing two highslots would probably ruin the DPS somewhat, personally I do like a HAC having the ability to use so many weapons. Lots of guns does have a certain appeal and it would be unique among the HACs. With just 5 turrets the only thing you really get is either an Arty Sniper (which the Eagle would own) or a slower Vaga with a little more shield. Does need something, but let it keep the ability to use a large amount of weapons, seems appropiate somehow... ------------------------ Low-sec is like sailing along the coast of Somalia...
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
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Posted - 2009.10.09 20:03:00 -
[129]
Originally by: Thenoran Removing two highslots would probably ruin the DPS somewhat, personally I do like a HAC having the ability to use so many weapons.
Ruin the DPS in what way - it's not like the two utility highs have any purpose at 100km. And if you're not at 100km, you should either be in a Hurricane (artillery) or Vaga (autocannons). Removing two lows would be an unbelievable nerf to the Muninn.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
Davinel Lulinvega
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Posted - 2009.10.09 20:06:00 -
[130]
Originally by: Thenoran
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Quote: Muninn needs two low slots swapped for two mid slots as the resistances it has are for omni-shield tanking.
WWHHHAAAAATTT?!!?!? No, -2 highs, +2 mids, or -2 highs, +1 mid, +1 low, or -2 highs, +2 lows.... doesn't really matter either way but removing 2 lows is like *ANOTHER* kick in the nuts. I didn't want any tracking enhancers or a damage control anyway
Removing two highslots would probably ruin the DPS somewhat, personally I do like a HAC having the ability to use so many weapons. Lots of guns does have a certain appeal and it would be unique among the HACs. With just 5 turrets the only thing you really get is either an Arty Sniper (which the Eagle would own) or a slower Vaga with a little more shield. Does need something, but let it keep the ability to use a large amount of weapons, seems appropiate somehow...
Please explain what game you are playing in which removing utility highs affects dps. Also the eagle is bad, try comparing to a zealot.
Originally by: CCP Tuxford Now the op looks like a weirdo that can't read kekekeke!
inb4 stealth edit |
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Lili Lu
Purveyors of Uber Research Valuables and Ships
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Posted - 2009.10.09 20:28:00 -
[131]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
- Low tier frigates: Make them all equivalent to highest tier frigs. Increase frig locking range.... seriously wtf? Two mid two low frigates - EAFs: They got hit too hard by the nano nerf... never see them anymore. :| They have always seemed to me to be just light missile or drone chum - Hawk: CRIPES WTF USELESS SHIP ALREADY JEEZE FIX IT! Yes, BECAUSE OF ROCKET - Vengeance/Malediction: Shouldn't we have fixed roflkets by now? It's all BECAUSE OF ROCKET, well because of explo velocity maybe - Enyo: Needs something to distinguish it from the Ishkur. Like more damage. maybe more fitting room would accomplish the same thing - Craptor/Ares/Eris: Sigh. Terrible T2 ships is just such a waste. Split weapons might be part of this - Coercer: JEEZE PEOPLE ONE MID SLOT IS NOT ENOUGH! Yes, and Retribution. And buff lasers! - Light Dictors: I hated you for the dictor speed nerf. Now the 'real' nano nerf hit and I hate you even more. maybe an extra slot on eash to add some tank to? - Tier 1 BCs: Make them Tier 2. The skill difference between BC1 and BC2 is laughable. maybe an extra slot? - Prophecy: Khandize it please. Resists + HAM ROF bonus, 50m^3 drone bay/bandwidth, Mmmmmm.... Well, maybe more launcher hardpoints without losing gun hardpoints - Omen: It'd almost work as a mini-geddon if it had the fittings to work with. I think CCP wants certain ships meant to teach the necessity of training fitting skills . . and still having to use the lowest tier guns or undersized guns - Augoror: This, I think, is the most useless cruiser in game. That says something with the lolicose out there. Yes, and most noobs are not in 0.0 and not flying a support ship for pos shootings, although i suppose they could be in the future of Dominion. - Arbitrator: 3 turret slots please. Actually, I like the ship the way it is. It is the one Amarr cruiser that really works. The mining drones out perform the 2 turrets. However to stick it to the Caldari dominance in noob mining and missioning, sure. - Retribution: Hello 2 mid slots plx? What, you just choose scram. You just have to be placed right for the decloak after they jump through to you. - Celestis/Arazu/Lachesis: The strength change that came from scripts (and I am specifically referring to the strength of the individual sides) was a way overkill nerf. Can we get the damp bonus boosed to 7.5-12.5%? IIRC it took 12.5% to get it back up to where it was. Scripts was a good idea, but changing the underlying formula wasn't. I don't know, the what about 30%? There is precedent. - Painter bonused ships: Sigh. You call this **** ewar? Yeah, again, 30% bonus precedent. Either for those or for the webs. - Rapier/Huginn: Web strength bonus please. Maybe at the cost of the painter bonus. See above: You call this **** ewar? Actually, I like painters, but not pidly 5% bonuses. Reminds me I have to make a thread about my idea for an overall fix to Recons. - Muninn: Two utility highs at 100km... useless. I can has 2 mids or mid/low or 2 low? I like the utility highs, maybe only one would be necessary though. - Black Ops: More gank would be nice. Or removing the scan res penalty on cloaks. Or a covops cloak. I don't know enough here - I am underwhelmed by the Oneiros. The Basilisk/Guardian/Scimi each have distinctive roles (Basi for POS repping, Guardian for heavy armor gangs, Scimi for nano gangs) .... but fast moving gangs don't really need armor often. If plates didn't destroy ship handling so much they might be useful - Procurer: Why? Indeed - Jump Freighers: ZOMG EXPENSAVE JEEEEEZZZEEEEEE..... (ok, I'm just jealous, I admit it) No, you are right, stupidly expensive
-Liang
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Kamen
SRBI Circle-Of-Two
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Posted - 2009.10.09 20:30:00 -
[132]
I keep saying this over and over for the past three years. Caldari keep suffering from "utility slot syndrome". All caldari ships with stupid "utility slots" would've been much better for PvP if they had either: 1) More power grid to actually use that slot for something USEFUL 2) Have that slot moved to medium or low.
Eagle is a sniper HAC, so wtf i the extra utilty/missle slot for? Snowball launcher? Cerberus has too low PG to begin with and you can't do anything with the extra utility slot! Raven in torp layout can't use the two extra high slots for absolutely anything useful other than a hook of salvager (PvM anyone?) ------------------------------------------------ (Recruiting ad) SRBI regrutuju! Dodjite na nas javni SRBI kanal. Kontakt Soder/Me West |
Arrador
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Posted - 2009.10.09 20:35:00 -
[133]
Originally by: Kamen I keep saying this over and over for the past three years. Caldari keep suffering from "utility slot syndrome". All caldari ships with stupid "utility slots" would've been much better for PvP if they had either: 1) More power grid to actually use that slot for something USEFUL 2) Have that slot moved to medium or low.
Eagle is a sniper HAC, so wtf i the extra utilty/missle slot for? Snowball launcher? Cerberus has too low PG to begin with and you can't do anything with the extra utility slot! Raven in torp layout can't use the two extra high slots for absolutely anything useful other than a hook of salvager (PvM anyone?)
the man speaks truth
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Kamen
SRBI Circle-Of-Two
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Posted - 2009.10.09 20:37:00 -
[134]
Originally by: Thenoran
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Quote: Muninn needs two low slots swapped for two mid slots as the resistances it has are for omni-shield tanking.
WWHHHAAAAATTT?!!?!? No, -2 highs, +2 mids, or -2 highs, +1 mid, +1 low, or -2 highs, +2 lows.... doesn't really matter either way but removing 2 lows is like *ANOTHER* kick in the nuts. I didn't want any tracking enhancers or a damage control anyway
Removing two highslots would probably ruin the DPS somewhat, personally I do like a HAC having the ability to use so many weapons. Lots of guns does have a certain appeal and it would be unique among the HACs. With just 5 turrets the only thing you really get is either an Arty Sniper (which the Eagle would own) or a slower Vaga with a little more shield. Does need something, but let it keep the ability to use a large amount of weapons, seems appropiate somehow...
By moving that high slot to a medium for a painter, or low for a tracking enhancer you will get more DPS and more tank because you didn't have to fit the PG hungry launcher to begin with. On an eagle you don't have enough PG EVER -- THINK or FLY those ships before you post. ------------------------------------------------ (Recruiting ad) SRBI regrutuju! Dodjite na nas javni SRBI kanal. Kontakt Soder/Me West |
Guillame Herschel
Gallente NME1
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Posted - 2009.10.09 23:49:00 -
[135]
Originally by: irion felpamy
Originally by: Guillame Herschel
[Huginn, YesWeCan] 3x Arby Assault Launchers 3x D180 T2 autocannons
Y-T8 MWD 3x Stasis Webifier II 2x Sensor Booster II, scan res
1600mm RRT EANM II DCU II
Medium ACR Medium Trimark or a resist (suggest Kinetic)
3x Hammerhead II 2x Hobgoblin II
congratulations with no point you just webbed him into warp.
Because all PvP in EVE is solo. Are you this stupid in game, or only on the forums?
-- He said "The President is near."
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slightly sillydude
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Posted - 2009.10.09 23:50:00 -
[136]
Originally by: Endless Subversion Edited by: Endless Subversion on 09/10/2009 17:02:10
Curse - Low, drone based dps (destructible, travel time) on a hull built to operate at mid ranges, with amarr shield resists (so bad), 6 mids and 4 lows, the base speed of a BC and only cap warfare to dictate range. Ship gets WORSE with more ships in gang, is super vulnerable to tackle frigs (hello 1x small nos) and lacks a reason to be in gang. Oh, and the cap boosters are standard on a huge number of ships which is a big kick in the nuts to the curse. It's the ultimate solo ship on paper, but can't actually hold targets down (no realistic web/scram options) is too slow (good luck maintaining range on more than one BC) and takes all of eternity to actually kill something.
I'm glad you said that. I keep getting killed in this damn thing despite the fact that everyone says its such an amazing solo ship. Sad DPS means I'll be lucky to kill a frigate before his ***** little friends show up. Unbelievably bad shield resists on a shield tanker, especially when everyone and their dog flies Amarr ships. The neuts are fairly mediocre at stopping anyone. They still get an mwd pulse off which is probably more than enough to get into tackle range. Complete reliance on 800s, and the ships that cap warfare really shuts down carry cap boosters for the most part anyhow. The tracking disruptors are good but thats because the module itself is really good, not the ship. Everyone claims that the neuts are useful for breaking tackle but in practice I am yet to see it. Scramblers take next to no cap to run and unless the neuts are timed perfectly, its not going to break tackle in any reasonable time frame.
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Davinel Lulinvega
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Posted - 2009.10.10 00:00:00 -
[137]
Originally by: Guillame Herschel
Originally by: irion felpamy
Originally by: Guillame Herschel
[Huginn, YesWeCan] 3x Arby Assault Launchers 3x D180 T2 autocannons
Y-T8 MWD 3x Stasis Webifier II 2x Sensor Booster II, scan res
1600mm RRT EANM II DCU II
Medium ACR Medium Trimark or a resist (suggest Kinetic)
3x Hammerhead II 2x Hobgoblin II
congratulations with no point you just webbed him into warp.
Because all PvP in EVE is solo. Are you this stupid in game, or only on the forums?
Yes because a tackler that has to wait for someone else to tackle is a great idea.
Originally by: CCP Tuxford Now the op looks like a weirdo that can't read kekekeke!
inb4 stealth edit |
Tagami Wasp
Caldari Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2009.10.10 00:15:00 -
[138]
Utility slot = cloak. Those that don't know how to use one, just stop asking to lose the utility slot and try some 0.0 first.
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Davinel Lulinvega
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Posted - 2009.10.10 00:29:00 -
[139]
Originally by: Tagami Wasp Utility slot = cloak. Those that don't know how to use one, just stop asking to lose the utility slot and try some 0.0 first.
You're talking about something other than the muninn right?
Originally by: CCP Tuxford Now the op looks like a weirdo that can't read kekekeke!
inb4 stealth edit |
demonfurbie
Minmatar Covert-Nexus
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Posted - 2009.10.10 00:46:00 -
[140]
if your gonna ham the prop may as well ham the maller as well to make it consistant with the t2 hulls of that same ship
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Tagami Wasp
Caldari Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2009.10.10 00:57:00 -
[141]
Originally by: Davinel Lulinvega
Originally by: Tagami Wasp Utility slot = cloak. Those that don't know how to use one, just stop asking to lose the utility slot and try some 0.0 first.
You're talking about something other than the muninn right?
I am talking about Munnin, but I am also talking about all those ignorant people that do not realize that a utility slot is a UTILITY slot. Being able to fit a high slot module, without sacrificing one of the ships bonused guns/launchers is a huge advantage. How come there are people so short sighted that cannot see that.
Frankly, if they gave me the freedom to take one class of ships and change just one thing on them, I'd give all recons a utility slot. No extra turret/ no extra launcher, just a utility slot. So, when I see people crying "Take away the utility slot, it's useless", it makes me wonder if I should start therapy to cope with the bizarreness and unreasonableness of this community.
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Xing Fey
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Posted - 2009.10.10 01:06:00 -
[142]
Rather than boosting webs, i'd have painters boosted to 30% for t1 and 40% for t2, as well as boost to 60km base range. This would cause a painter on a huggin/rapier to have a greater effect on hitting a target than a web (68% vs 60%). Could be boosted even a tid more if needed, webs do have the advantage of distance control. A 10%/ level ship bonus would give these a 75% effect, not stacked with any webs already on the target.
And on non-painting-bonused ships, a 40% painter (50% with skills) would now outclass a 30% tracking computer by a more comfortable margin...
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AstroPhobic
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2009.10.10 01:13:00 -
[143]
Originally by: Tagami Wasp
Originally by: Davinel Lulinvega
Originally by: Tagami Wasp Utility slot = cloak. Those that don't know how to use one, just stop asking to lose the utility slot and try some 0.0 first.
You're talking about something other than the muninn right?
I am talking about Munnin, but I am also talking about all those ignorant people that do not realize that a utility slot is a UTILITY slot. Being able to fit a high slot module, without sacrificing one of the ships bonused guns/launchers is a huge advantage. How come there are people so short sighted that cannot see that.
Frankly, if they gave me the freedom to take one class of ships and change just one thing on them, I'd give all recons a utility slot. No extra turret/ no extra launcher, just a utility slot. So, when I see people crying "Take away the utility slot, it's useless", it makes me wonder if I should start therapy to cope with the bizarreness and unreasonableness of this community.
Sniper HACs are supposed to do good DPS at 100km, not be good cloakers at 100km.
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Tagami Wasp
Caldari Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2009.10.10 01:20:00 -
[144]
Dude, being able to cloak has nothing to do with sniping, but is all about surviving overwhelming numbers. How many times have you been on a small gang roam and needed to disengage and lay low cause they dropped a 50 RRBS gang w/ support and tacklers/probers on you?
Whatever makes the blob cry, it makes me happy.
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Davinel Lulinvega
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Posted - 2009.10.10 01:29:00 -
[145]
Originally by: Tagami Wasp Dude, being able to cloak has nothing to do with sniping, but is all about surviving overwhelming numbers. How many times have you been on a small gang roam and needed to disengage and lay low cause they dropped a 50 RRBS gang w/ support and tacklers/probers on you?
Whatever makes the blob cry, it makes me happy.
So what you're actually talking about is bringing a sniper hac to a random pickup fleet, because the situation you described is literally what sniper hac fleets were created to counter and poses essentially no threat.
Originally by: CCP Tuxford Now the op looks like a weirdo that can't read kekekeke!
inb4 stealth edit |
Tagami Wasp
Caldari Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2009.10.10 03:03:00 -
[146]
Originally by: Davinel Lulinvega
Originally by: Tagami Wasp Dude, being able to cloak has nothing to do with sniping, but is all about surviving overwhelming numbers. How many times have you been on a small gang roam and needed to disengage and lay low cause they dropped a 50 RRBS gang w/ support and tacklers/probers on you?
Whatever makes the blob cry, it makes me happy.
So what you're actually talking about is bringing a sniper hac to a random pickup fleet, because the situation you described is literally what sniper hac fleets were created to counter and poses essentially no threat.
Nope. What I described is taking a roaming gang (yes sniper HACs like the Munnin/ Zealot and Cerberus can do roaming gangs) and going deep into enemy territory. What is going to hold a RRBS on the gate so you can pop him with the snipers if he's got 5 other BSs repping him? If at some time you face overwhelming odds and you are in a pipe what do you do? Log off and go for dinner? What if you got aggro timer? Do you know how easy it is to be probed and poped in such a situation? Pleas tell me you got some experience in this and not just rehashing stuff you read on the forum.
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
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Posted - 2009.10.10 04:24:00 -
[147]
Originally by: Tagami Wasp What if you got aggro timer? Do you know how easy it is to be probed and poped in such a situation?
Safe spots. Cycle between them at various ranges. Periodically make new ones and delete old ones. Never been caught. And a cloak on a Muninn is pure fail.
Quote: Pleas tell me you got some experience in this and not just rehashing stuff you read on the forum.
I've spent several months at a time undocked in a cloaking nano ishtar. Yes, I know what I'm talking about here.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
Darnok Iksnibiks
Gallente INDUSTRIA BATTLETECH
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Posted - 2009.10.10 10:37:00 -
[148]
I would like to ad Hyperion to The wish list. It’s probably the less useful tier 3 bs but also outclassed by both lower tier gallente bs. It suffers mostly from its bonus for active tank when buffer is king. Lack of both durability on the field, and fitting space if tanked properly are the biggest issues (excluding blaster issues, but that is not the place to discuss it). Imho it’s just wrong when shield tanked hype seems to outshine other fits as dps blaster boat :/
For me, gallente racial tank bonus should be changed from 7.5% per level to 10% per level, and hype would really need 5% more pg boost to be able to fit proper tank as well as big enough blasters to compensate lack of damage moods (everybody know that active demands way more fitting slots than passive)
Darnok Iksnibiks
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Cruxis Core
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Posted - 2009.10.10 11:22:00 -
[149]
Edited by: Cruxis Core on 10/10/2009 11:25:42 I'd want some examples of what makes a Raptor a Craptor.
All I see in this thread was calling it's crap, with no reasons why.
I have quite limited experience of the game, and the Raptor is also the only inty i have flown. Personally I like the balance it has. The turrets I've found totally useless for now at least cos of my low gunnery points, but I love the 13,5 AU/s warp speed and a 30km point.
Looking at the Crow bonuses, I think I'm gonna stay with Raptors, they are cheaper too :P
Raptor seems to have abit messed up max targeting range compared to the Crow, something could be maybe done to this.
Personally I don't feel like I'm responsible for doing the damage as well, I'm just a tackle And I do not solo, I fly in small/medium gangs
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Doctor Cal'torien
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Posted - 2009.10.10 15:25:00 -
[150]
please make Titans more Epic and less DDD in the new update (i won't even work towards it if all i get is a glorified Disco) i'm talking MULTIPLE CAPITAL-CLASS WEPONS SYSTEMS
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Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
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Posted - 2009.10.10 15:28:00 -
[151]
Kestrel.
Reduce its damage bonus somewhat. Currently it is +10%/lvl for kinetic missiles/rockets, and +5%/level for other missiles/rockets.
Reduce that bonus to 7.5%/lvl for kinetic, and either keep the 5%/lvl bonus or reduce it to 3.75%.
Then in exchange, make the Kestrel slightly more durable (increase shield HP), and slightly easier to fit (increase CPU and powergrid - not slots; it has an adequate number of slots already).
Among other things, this also opens up for AFs being able to compete better with Kestrels, or even the hypothetical T1 missile destroyer.
Currently, the Kestrel flown with Caldari Frigate skill 5 has effectively six standard missile launchers, so any missile AF has to outperform that, and likewise the hypothetical T1 missile destroyer, in order to not be ridiculed.
That's rather hard. If the kinetic damage bonus is lowered, a maxed skill Kestrel "counts" only as 5.5 effective Standard Lauchers. A T1 missile destroyer with 7 missile hardpoints outperforms that, and T2 AFs can easily outperform that too, if they get both a damage bonus and a RoF bonus.
And in exchange for that, the Kestrel can get some help in areas where it is quite annoyingly painful to fly: Fitting and tank.
Also the Merlin.
I'd love to see it as a dedicated missile ship, or a dedicated gunboat. The current schizo-hardpoint setup bothers me a lot.
Being a Caldari ship, the Merlin should be made into a missile ship too, same way the Kestrel is, except where the Kestrel emphasizes DPS (something I want reduced only slightly), the Merlin emphasizes durabulity, and also easy fitting (it has much more CPU and powergrid than the Kestrel). I want that retained.
Caldari can (and should!) have two tier 3 missile ships, with different characteristics.
Give the Merlin 1 extra laucher hardpoint. That's all I'm asking for. It doesn't even need a damage or RoF bonus. Just let me fit a 3rd launcher.
-- Salpad C.E.O., Carebears with Attitude |
Tyler Lowe
DROW Org Brotherhood of the Spider
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Posted - 2009.10.10 16:01:00 -
[152]
Originally by: Liang Nuren - Painter bonused ships: Sigh. You call this **** ewar? - Rapier/Huginn: Web strength bonus please. Maybe at the cost of the painter bonus. See above: You call this **** ewar?
-Liang
Ed: If you're wondering why I left the Tempest off: I'm withholding judgment on the Tempest until I've seen the final iteration of the Projectile changes. It would be a mistake to balance the Tempest before projectiles are fixed.
I asked about this back when the changes to webs were announced on the CCP feadback thread. I don't think the TP bonus is so strong that it needs to be dropped if there is a boost to the webbing. I think the ship can keep both.
The Vigil on the other hand, I would like to see go towards webbing range/effectiveness.
What I asked for, and would like to see, is the addition of "and 10%/level to the effectiveness of Stasis Webifiers" added to the description of the web range bonus on the Huginn/Rapier/Vigil(post change). We have this bonus on Marauders but not on ships dedicated to webbing as their e-war? WTF.
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Aoa Lux
Caldari North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.10.10 16:33:00 -
[153]
Originally by: Salpad
Being a Caldari ship, the Merlin should be made into a missile ship too, same way the Kestrel is, except where the Kestrel emphasizes DPS (something I want reduced only slightly), the Merlin emphasizes durabulity, and also easy fitting (it has much more CPU and powergrid than the Kestrel). I want that retained.
Caldari can (and should!) have two tier 3 missile ships, with different characteristics.
Being a Caldari ship, the Rokh should be made into a missile ship too, same way the Raven is, except where the Raven emphasizes DPS (something I want reduced only slightly), the Rokh emphasizes durabulity, and also easy fitting (it has much more CPU and powergrid than the Raven). I want that retained.
Caldari can (and should!) have two tier 3 missile ships, with different characteristics.
Yeah. No. Caldari use hybrids just as much as missiles. Give merlin the turret slots it deserves.
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Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
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Posted - 2009.10.10 16:36:00 -
[154]
Originally by: Aoa Lux Yeah. No. Caldari use hybrids just as much as missiles. Give merlin the turret slots it deserves.
Either way, the current situation is stupid. Merlin should get either one extra launcher hardpoint, or one extra turret hardpoint.
Even if schizo hardpoint ships should exist, they should never be top-tier ships, meaning tier 3 ships.
-- Salpad C.E.O., Carebears with Attitude |
Tagami Wasp
Caldari Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2009.10.10 17:58:00 -
[155]
Originally by: Salpad
Originally by: Aoa Lux Yeah. No. Caldari use hybrids just as much as missiles. Give merlin the turret slots it deserves.
Either way, the current situation is stupid. Merlin should get either one extra launcher hardpoint, or one extra turret hardpoint.
Even if schizo hardpoint ships should exist, they should never be top-tier ships, meaning tier 3 ships.
I'd love a Merlin that can fit 3 Light Neutrons. Why not? Really make it into a Little Moa. But that requires that it should get roughly 10 more CPU and PG.
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Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
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Posted - 2009.10.10 18:04:00 -
[156]
Originally by: Tagami Wasp
I'd love a Merlin that can fit 3 Light Neutrons. Why not? Really make it into a Little Moa. But that requires that it should get roughly 10 more CPU and PG.
I've never had any problems fitting the Merlin, whereas the Kestrel is extremely tight in terms of either CPU or powergrid (I forget which one).
The real problem are the schizo hardpoints. 2 turrets for guns, 2 launchers for missiles or rockets. What to optimize for?
It doesn't work. You have to skill up for both kinds of weapon systems, you end up not fitting a damage increase module in a LOW slot, and you have to carry 2 types of ammo.
-- Salpad C.E.O., Carebears with Attitude |
Tagami Wasp
Caldari Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2009.10.10 18:07:00 -
[157]
Originally by: Salpad What to optimize for?
It doesn't work. You have to skill up for both kinds of weapon systems, you end up not fitting a damage increase module in a LOW slot, and you have to carry 2 types of ammo.
What is the ship bonused for again? Right click> Show Info
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Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
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Posted - 2009.10.10 18:31:00 -
[158]
Originally by: Tagami Wasp What is the ship bonused for again? Right click> Show Info
That doesn't justify it having a schizo hardpoint setup. Give it a 3rd turret hardpoint, then, recognizing that it is bonussed as a gunship.
-- Salpad C.E.O., Carebears with Attitude |
AstroPhobic
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2009.10.10 18:36:00 -
[159]
Originally by: Salpad
Originally by: Tagami Wasp
I'd love a Merlin that can fit 3 Light Neutrons. Why not? Really make it into a Little Moa. But that requires that it should get roughly 10 more CPU and PG.
I've never had any problems fitting the Merlin, whereas the Kestrel is extremely tight in terms of either CPU or powergrid (I forget which one).
The real problem are the schizo hardpoints. 2 turrets for guns, 2 launchers for missiles or rockets. What to optimize for?
It doesn't work. You have to skill up for both kinds of weapon systems, you end up not fitting a damage increase module in a LOW slot, and you have to carry 2 types of ammo.
Sounds a lot like a number of minmatar ships. Split weapon ships are boned to begin with.
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Aleus Stygian
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Posted - 2009.10.10 19:10:00 -
[160]
Low tier and high tier frigs and BCs need precisely this sort of evening out, I agree. At least with the BS you can, with the right fitting, get ships that can compete on quite equal terms.
Rockets need fixing. Hell, missiles in general need fixing. Re-calculate the explosion velocity formula and realize that people will be speedtanking well and easily enough that only 20-30% of the damage under optimal conditions getting through will not be sufficient.
There are too many more or less useless T2 ships and suggestions regarding this to mention. I believe they all have threads either way. But on the point of split weapon setups... Please change it so that Minmatar T2 ships have some particular trademark choice of weapons. Turn Core Complexion, Thukker or Boundless Creation ships into either dedicated projectile or dedicated missile ships. And look over the Typhoon as well.
And, like has already been said, please fix projectiles in a decent fashion. ACs in particular deserve a significant boost; even doubling their base optimal, raising the base damage multiplier to 4.0 on a 425 II and scaling after that, and boosting T2 ammunition, they'd still be rather balanced compared to other turrets. Well, except blasters, of course. But those are already ****e unless put on an optimal-bonused Caldari ship. _________________________________________________________
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
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Posted - 2009.10.10 19:13:00 -
[161]
They *are* boosting projectiles.... not a lot, but it is a boost.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
Renarla
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Posted - 2009.10.10 20:22:00 -
[162]
Originally by: Tagami Wasp
Originally by: Salpad
Originally by: Aoa Lux Yeah. No. Caldari use hybrids just as much as missiles. Give merlin the turret slots it deserves.
Either way, the current situation is stupid. Merlin should get either one extra launcher hardpoint, or one extra turret hardpoint.
Even if schizo hardpoint ships should exist, they should never be top-tier ships, meaning tier 3 ships.
I'd love a Merlin that can fit 3 Light Neutrons. Why not? Really make it into a Little Moa. But that requires that it should get roughly 10 more CPU and PG.
You can't complain about the Merlin when the Tristan exists. Such a sad little ship, just begging to be loved. However, on another note, I now have one of those annoying sigs. |
Deathhawk
Hammersmith Hardmen Exquisite Malevolence
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Posted - 2009.10.10 20:28:00 -
[163]
If you were to add another med slot to the retri it would be superwtfbbqpwnsauce overpowered :) but I would like it if it did have another :D
Chuck Norris wears Deathhawk pyjamas
One image per sig please. Zymurgist Forum **** at its best. DH |
Pater Peccavi
Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2009.10.10 20:35:00 -
[164]
Originally by: AstroPhobic
Sounds a lot like a number of minmatar ships. Split weapon ships are boned to begin with.
No, split weapon systems are versatile! _________
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Tagami Wasp
Caldari Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2009.10.10 20:58:00 -
[165]
Originally by: Renarla
You can't complain about the Merlin when the Tristan exists. Such a sad little ship, just begging to be loved.
When I train Gallente frig 5, I'll give it a go. For the time being, I prefer to hone my support skills before I cross-train.
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Cpt Branko
The Scope
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Posted - 2009.10.10 21:48:00 -
[166]
Originally by: Allen Ramses
Making them "unreasonably stupid to fit" depends on your definition of unreasonably stupid.
A remote repair system which is restricted to being fit on Caldari BS only is destined to fail and is as such unreasonably stupid, since you cannot realistically make gangs which exclude everyone else flying a battleship.
It's not that complicated. Even with lower CPU requirements for shield RRs (which are, also, about 33% harder to fit CPU and 17% harder to fit PG wise then LSBs which they are based on, not some silly 200% or so), you'll rarely see a shield RR BS gang due to slot issues excluding things like Amarr BS realistically participating in them and so on (but you could use remote shield Tempests and Dominixes reasonably well for instance).
TL:DR; it's not that "shield transporters require users to think about their fitting in relation to the well being of their gang". Shield transporters require users to fly caldari BS only due to both slot layouts and CPU requirements, and therefore they are fail.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Arrador
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Posted - 2009.10.10 22:02:00 -
[167]
yea, the Caldari Frigates are a little boned...
Merlin - Split weapons, yet clearly bonused to Hybrids. Give us a third turret slot while keeping the current highslot count the same. (4 high slots, 3 turret slots, 2 missile slots). Also give it a pinch more CPU/PG to fit the 3rd turret
Same for kestrel. Fitting missiles and any sort of tank on that ship is akin to pulling teeth.
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Tagami Wasp
Caldari Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2009.10.10 22:20:00 -
[168]
I wonder if someone cares to do a quick poll and count how many Caldari ships are mentioned in relation to the number total, as well as for the rest of the races. Bet you I now which race has the most complaints...
Pareto analysis would be just the tool to see where most failures appear and try to apply fixes there, but it costs 5000 Euro to retain me to just to look at a case and CCP hasn't payed me for this yet.
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M Blanc
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Posted - 2009.10.10 23:07:00 -
[169]
Omen Near-unfittable as it stands. Needs a significant boost to CPU and grid so it can do an 800mm plate/focused medium pulse setup at bare minimum.
Merlin and Tristan Same problem with both - split weapons. Move the Merlin to a 3 turret/1 launcher setup. Could do the same for the Tristan but that might make it too much like the Incursus - maybe drop one launcher slot and give it 15-20m^3 of dronebay and bandwidth instead?
Cormorant, Catalyst, Coercer More fitting, naow! Need a solid buff to bring them on to a par with the Thrasher. Give the Coercer a midslot.
Eagle Can only do a viable sniper fit with both an ACR and an RCU, and so effectively has one less slot than the Muninn/Zealot. Increase base grid to ~1100 so you only need one fitting mod to bring it into line with the other sniper HACs.
Raptor Ugh, this is terrible. Unfittable, awful ship concept, slow... blech.
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Zarnak Wulf
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Posted - 2009.10.11 02:39:00 -
[170]
Edited by: Zarnak Wulf on 11/10/2009 02:45:56
Originally by: M Blanc
Cormorant, Catalyst, Coercer More fitting, naow! Need a solid buff to bring them on to a par with the Thrasher. Give the Coercer a midslot.
Their fitting is horrible. With the thrasher I can fit 7 280mm II and a T1 MWD with only one MAPC. The other three can't do this and struggle horribly.
They're designed poorly as well. Three destroyers are supposed to be sniping platforms. The ROF penalty makes alpha critical. Minmatar is king of this - especially where unfortified interceptors are concerned. My setup throws out a 1369 alpha at 11km. Optimal plus falloff is 22km. 40% of the original alpha would be around 547. And it can wing interceptors out to 30km albeit barely. It's DPS is a weak 169.
The closest to this is the coercer. Using faction X-ray you can get an alpha of 524 out to 19km. Falloff of 5km. DPS of 145. You have to use two MAPC to fit the Medium Beam Laser II. The ROF penalty kills it. It's subpar to the thrasher unless you fit for long range and go for a very weak alpha.
The cormorant and catalyst are even worse. The cormorant has a DPS of around 100 and an alpha of 300. It can hit out to 50km but I'd never use one. The whole strategy of the destroyer is to shock and awe frigates. You're not as fast as they are. You're not going to win an speed battle. This is why the catalyst fails. You have a DPS version of a destroyer that has an ROF penalty. Stupid. I don't put points on my thrasher b/c most battles are over in two salvoes. I can't imagine an interceptor sitting around while it gets plinked to death.
These three destroyers need to be rethought. The Thrasher gets a tracking and a damage bonus. It also gets a 50% optimal bonus in return for a 25% ROF penalty. This is perfect for the Thrasher. Let's think out of the box on the other three. Better fitting requirements. Nix the double optimal range. Different penalties?
Edit: The "Sniper" AF are built on the destroyer platforms. Armored versions that do a bit less damage. Retribution and coercer have a similar issue when you think of it. Addressing one can be used in the other area as well. O - and that RFEMP ammo I like to use in the Thrasher is getting a 10% buff as well.
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
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Posted - 2009.10.11 02:46:00 -
[171]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 11/10/2009 02:47:26
Originally by: Zarnak Wulf It also gets a 50% optimal bonus in return for a 25% ROF penalty. This is perfect for the Thrasher. Let's think out of the box on the other three. Better fitting requirements. Nix the double optimal range. Different penalties?
I underlined the part that is simply false. Yes, the Thrasher works - I love them. But no, a 50% optimal bonus isn't the best bonus for it to have.
-Liang
Ed: BTW, I do support boosting the destroyer class as a whole - even the Thrasher (although less than the other races). -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
Davinel Lulinvega
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Posted - 2009.10.11 06:07:00 -
[172]
Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 11/10/2009 02:47:26
Originally by: Zarnak Wulf It also gets a 50% optimal bonus in return for a 25% ROF penalty. This is perfect for the Thrasher. Let's think out of the box on the other three. Better fitting requirements. Nix the double optimal range. Different penalties?
I underlined the part that is simply false. Yes, the Thrasher works - I love them. But no, a 50% optimal bonus isn't the best bonus for it to have.
-Liang
Ed: BTW, I do support boosting the destroyer class as a whole - even the Thrasher (although less than the other races).
50% alpha.
Originally by: CCP Tuxford Now the op looks like a weirdo that can't read kekekeke!
inb4 stealth edit |
Exitar Stormscion
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Posted - 2009.10.11 06:38:00 -
[173]
I would vote for:
Omen - more pg and cpu. Maller - maybe make it missile boat. Prophecy - make it like maller missile boat ?
Mortal in body Eternal in will. |
Allen Ramses
Caldari Typo Corp
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Posted - 2009.10.11 07:17:00 -
[174]
Originally by: Cpt Branko It's not that complicated. Even with lower CPU requirements for shield RRs (which are, also, about 33% harder to fit CPU and 17% harder to fit PG wise then LSBs which they are based on, not some silly 200% or so), you'll rarely see a shield RR BS gang due to slot issues excluding things like Amarr BS realistically participating in them and so on (but you could use remote shield Tempests and Dominixes reasonably well for instance).
200%? Where did that come from, and what does it have to do with anything?
Anyway, you rarely see shield RR BS gangs due to the fact that an RST doesn't require a mere 30% of the fitting compared to the module it is based on. This makes it quite rare outside dedicated ships, which is EXACTLY how it should be. If the LRAR needed 33% more PG than the LAR, you wouldn't see every battleship fitting a pair.
Perhaps the LAR requires WAY too much grid (understatement), but that is not a valid excuse for why the LRAR requires WAY too little grid (again, understatement). Face it, the grid requirements for LRAR are just plain STUPID! ____________________ CCP: Catering to the cowards of a cold, harsh universe since November, 2006. |
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