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Logit Probit
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Posted - 2009.10.11 06:41:00 -
[1]
These screenshots demonstrate everything that is right and wrong with EvE Online.
Before I explain, allow me to make two introductions.
Logit Probit is a scumbag who ninja-salvages other players' missions near a highsec mission hub. He's a parasite and a griefer. On top of that, he doesn't honor ransoms. He runs an association of similar players, who choose not to incorporate mainly because it makes retaliation difficult.
I'm a 29-year-old Ph.D student at a midwestern American university. I'm married, have a doberman puppy, love to ride my motorcycle, and I help my landlady take out her garbage. I'm a researcher in the areas game theoretics and mass behavior, and I love playing EvE Online.
If you are a mission-runner, Logit deserves your scorn. However, give me a chance to convince you that Logit is your best friend at the same time he's the biggest pain in your backside.
As CCP is well aware, EvE is great because it's a sandbox. The lack of constraints on us in-game allow numerous ôsteady statesö of group behavior to arise. In fact, there are so many different behavioral equilibria that it is difficult for any one player to experience more than a few of them. Even within one ôprofessionö, you will see different tactics in different regions, even if the strategies are the same. Mining ops in one area will be organized differently than ops in another area; FCs in the north operate a little differently than Russian FCs.
Multiple norms of behavior allow the events to occur that make EvE amazing.
Armageddon single-handedly destroys a 40-man highsec mining fleet with a surprise suicide attack. Trusted broker's conscience gets the best of him; commandeers stolen unique ship and returns it to the player it was stolen from. Bank CEO absconds with hundreds of billions. Legendary alliance destroyed by espionage.
In other words, EvE is great because the unexpected occurs.
There have been other games like EvE, sandbox games that were great, but were ruined because well-intentioned changes rippled through them, destroying behavioral equilibria. A classic example was the addition of rare tools into Star Wars Galaxies that could prevent gear from decaying to the point where they were unusable. This change was meant to preserve the hard work of some of the game's most dedicated players, and to encourage rare item use in PvP. However, the change disrupted the player-made economy; demand for high-end crafted gear evaporated, incentives to hunt for looted crafting components disappeared, and SWG was soon hemorrhaging 10k subscriptions per month. SWG had unintentionally constrained the variety of fun behaviors and interactions.
While CCP has maintained minimal constraints on behavior, its track record is not perfect. For instance, the introduction of jump freighters has reduced the number of viable behaviors available to those who enjoy the challenge of long-range, heavy-volume commerce. Soon, a comprehensive set of structural constraints will be introduced into 0.0. While the changes may turn out for the best, it is a fact that increased constraints reduce the possible number of behavioral equilibria.
In other words, with more rules, the unexpected becomes less so.
On the 4th CSM, I'll dedicate full effort to exploring the unintended consequences of the big changes that are coming to EvE.
Logit Probit may be a horrible bastard, but I'll be on my best behavior, and I'll do everything I can to preserve that sweet spot in EvE where the learning curve is just a little too high and the barrier to making horrible mistakes is just a little too low.
Trust me, that spot is where we all want to be.
Now get out there and run some missions.
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Manu Hermanus
FaDoyToy
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Posted - 2009.10.11 06:44:00 -
[2]
You don't have my vote You're posting again!? Has it really been 5 mins?
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Artassaut
Minmatar Oblivion Amalgamated
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Posted - 2009.10.11 07:20:00 -
[3]
I'll vote for you if you go and gank another CSM candidate. --- The Gate: Lol, try targeting me in a fleet fight. The Station: No U. |
MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.10.11 08:28:00 -
[4]
Cross-posting FTL.
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Moranda Morland
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Posted - 2009.10.11 08:45:00 -
[5]
Things I learned form this thread:
1. That Logit Probit is afraid to face the people he ****es off so he hides in a NPC corp, very pirateish- YARRR and a few
2. Nerds in real life tend to be asshats on the interwebs
3. Even guys with small PP's can and do get married, I assume you are married to a female if not nothing wrong with it i live in SF it smells of Vaseline around here all the time.
4. That a moped and a motorcycle are the same thing when talking to people that don't know you in real life.
5. That he really considers (or most likely wishes others would) himself a, scumbag, and a horrible bastard.
6. You have no chance in hell to win-
so go pet your puppy hop on the moped with you gay lover and put this CSM silliness outta your pretty little bald head ; )
Kisses Moranda |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.10.11 09:22:00 -
[6]
This thread makes me wish I hadn't already promised my vote to Larkonis
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Pheusia
Gallente The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.10.11 09:23:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Malcanis This thread makes me wish I hadn't already promised my vote to Larkonis
But Mal, you have a lovely alt you keep specifically for all those things you want to do but cant do with you main! Signed, Pheusia |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.10.11 09:24:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Pheusia
Originally by: Malcanis This thread makes me wish I hadn't already promised my vote to Larkonis
But Mal, you have a lovely alt you keep specifically for all those things you want to do but cant do with you main!
That's very true... let's see how this turns out.
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Emily Evil
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Posted - 2009.10.11 09:32:00 -
[9]
So after your first thread in C&P failed you try again here?
fake edit:
Also, those 2 screenshots seem to be the only ones you got.
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Janice Jankowski
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Posted - 2009.10.11 10:40:00 -
[10]
Link to geddon thread?
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Cpt Branko
The Scope
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Posted - 2009.10.11 11:12:00 -
[11]
You get my vote ;)
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
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Posted - 2009.10.11 11:41:00 -
[12]
A CSM Manifesto that's well-written?
Almost deserves a vote.
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Yristor
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Posted - 2009.10.11 12:05:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Yristor on 11/10/2009 12:07:43 This is a far better post than your ill thought out attempt to get C&P on your side.
Allowing multiple behavior patterns to evolve and flourish is a worthy goal, and keeping Eve from becoming a WoW-style themepark MMO should always be encouraged (my interest in that game died when Blizzard banned players from jumping on rooftops to PVP in neutral towns, which had lead to encounters that were far more thrilling than any BG).
However, simply being "anti-rules" doesn't lead to the full spectrum of potentially interesting behavior emerging, because a certain amount of rules are necessary for complexity to flourish. Eve's economy is primitive - bartering and a simple marketplace system. Because institutions like the Eve Bank and any stock/bond offering have to store their ISK with the directors having access, the potential for fraud or theft limits the willingness of the public to do business with them. A character's reputation is the only safeguard, and that's been proven over and over again to not be an effective deterrent. A stronger financial sector could allow banks or investors to finance corp wars so that a smaller alliance would have a chance against a currently dominant one, offer different types of insurance, have more bond and stock offerings from industrial corps, etc. A futures market (puts and calls) would allow far more interesting options for manufacturing (and market manipulation). Contracts could be enforced by allowing the betrayed party to sell or offer the right to a certain number of characters or merc corps to have kill rights on the contract breaker up until the insured value of destroyed ships equals the amount lost. Mercs could bid on contracts to pod a certain number of players from a target corp, etc.
There has to be a way to allow the corp theft and betrayals that we all love, while still giving some greater security to these sort of interesting interactions. I'd recommend creating a second corp type ("financial") with a different rule set allowing for greater security but also limiting its options (so that it couldn't simultaneously be a merc corp for example).
Further complexity would come from things like putting rare types of asteroid needed for planet development ONLY in a few systems in lowsec (and moving all Ice and "Dense", "Condensed" etc. asteroids to the rest of lowsec)... risk vs. reward.
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MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.10.11 12:34:00 -
[14]
Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 11/10/2009 12:43:38
Actually, a radical anti-carebear elected to the CSM will do less damage than one that presents himself to be "more balanced". For this reason alone I encourage all the carebear haters and "OMG iM s0 uB3r h4RdcOrE" PVPers to vote for this guy. There's nothing like an idiot elected by idiots to represent them.
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Expert Troll
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Posted - 2009.10.11 12:39:00 -
[15]
Wait a second, you call people ultra carebears and gank people, pvp, pew pew, etc etc.
But you hide in NPC corp where you can't be war decced?
I was trying to find a word to describe it, so I looked in the dictionary, found your picture under hypocrite.
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Professor Tarantula
Hedion University
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Posted - 2009.10.11 12:44:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Logit Probit
Quote: Logit Probit is a scumbag who ninja-salvages other players' missions near a highsec mission hub. He's a parasite and a griefer. On top of that, he doesn't honor ransoms. He runs an association of similar players, who choose not to incorporate mainly because it makes retaliation difficult.
Quote: Logit Probit may be a horrible bastard, but I'll be on my best behavior.
Holy Dissociative identity disorder Batman.
My deepest sympathies. Prof. Tarantula, Esq. |
Julius Rigel
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Posted - 2009.10.11 12:49:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Expert Troll Wait a second, you call people ultra carebears and gank people, pvp, pew pew, etc etc.
But you hide in NPC corp where you can't be war decced?
I was trying to find a word to describe it, so I looked in the dictionary, found your picture under hypocrite.
That's odd, I could have sworn the caption read "Pragmatic" not "Hypocrite".
So Logit, since you so politely invade my Sunday brunch and forum browsing, I shall ask you a question regarding your plans for your term.
What do you plan on doing to get rid of this silly charade? What's that? None? Ok, well I'll see you later then. o/
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McFly
C0LDFIRE
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Posted - 2009.10.11 15:28:00 -
[18]
sorry probit, but ur just as ***** as those you prey on, if you want any support get out of the npc corp and quit preying on Dyslexic, PTS afflicted carebears.
Disclaimer: I dont like carebears, but hiding in an NPC Corp to avoid the wrath of said carebears takes the cake imho.
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Logit Probit
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Posted - 2009.10.11 16:55:00 -
[19]
I know my ninja-salvaging and carebear-killing isn't going to win me any support amongst the carebear community, and my lack of E-honor is going to turn off lowsec-pirates-with-a-hint-of-RP types.
I'm not a PvPer. I'm a salvager, and not a nice one. As far as exposing myself to retaliatory war decs, I've been there and done that, and it while it's all good and fun, it prevents us from doing what we like to do in-game.
The fact is that anyone who I or my mates have ever destroyed has deserved to lose their ship.
Rule #1 of EvE is: Don't aggress in a ship you aren't prepared to lose.
There are multiple, multiple ways to make ninja-salvagers go away; warping out, shooting wrecks, or leaving and getting in an actual PvP ship. Carebears that shoot salvagers expecting an easy kill or no retaliation are making a mistake, and I'm more than happy to take that to the bank. It's part of the game.
As far as the idea that some of these carebears have something wrong with them and should be left alone, you said it, I didn't. The internet is full of characters and it's not my job to pre-screen people for emotional problems before I return fire. If you don't think someone melting down in local over some pixels is funny, well, maybe EvE isn't the place for you.
Finally, I find the idea that people can't separate their in-game persona from their RL behavior disturbing. Personally, when I see a vehicle wreck in real life, I don't run up to it and break off a chunk, hoping the owner will then pick a fight with me over it so I can punch him in the face and take his wallet too, and I wouldn't do that even if the rules of society allowed for it.
I'd like to keep EvE fun for everyone, not just myself. Part of that is making sure the implemention of well-meant changes doesn't ripple throughout the game environment, causing unintentional problems. I've got lots of experience modeling just those types of problems, and I hope that the EvE community will give me a chance to contribute what I can. It would be the least I can do, and perhaps a fitting penance for my parasitical in-game activities.
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MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.10.11 17:00:00 -
[20]
Is there a reason why you keep spamming the forums with "Elect me plox!1!" threads?
Couldn't you just start one and stick to it?
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Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
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Posted - 2009.10.11 17:00:00 -
[21]
CSM...... lol
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Logit Probit
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Posted - 2009.10.11 17:03:00 -
[22]
Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 spamming the forums
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MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.10.11 17:06:00 -
[23]
What can I tell ya. Troll threads attract troll posts.
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Logit Probit
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Posted - 2009.10.11 17:10:00 -
[24]
Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 What can I tell ya. Troll threads attract troll posts.
nosce te ipsum
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MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.10.11 17:25:00 -
[25]
Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 11/10/2009 17:28:13
Wow, that IS impressive! You know Latin. But, what does that have to do with you cross-posting threads on the same topic? Is it necessary?
And a carebear hater who's a carebear himself uttering that phrase is... simply ironic.
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Lance Fighter
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.10.11 17:32:00 -
[26]
This question will determine who gets my vote; Are you for or against the stardrive on certain ships (t3 mainly) Blane Xero > Lance is at -0.9 sec status with a 1 million bounty. LAnce is also amarrian. Thats 3 evil points |
Kawea
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Posted - 2009.10.11 17:34:00 -
[27]
There is something else I'm finding interesting about this guy. He states there that he is:
Originally by: Logit Probit ...
I'm a researcher in the areas game theoretics and mass behavior, and I love playing EvE Online.
...
I remember reading about some other researcher, who actually went as far as creating a paper based on his jerky and griefing behavior in an online game (City of Heroes or whatever that game was).
It appears to me, that some of these social sciences 'researchers' take great interest in acting in the most disruptive way they can come up with, in the name of their 'research'.
I guess that is just as good an excuse to being a jerk as any other.
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Logit Probit
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Posted - 2009.10.11 17:38:00 -
[28]
Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Wow, that IS impressive! You know Latin. But, what does that have to do with you cross-posting threads on the same topic? Is it necessary?
And a carebear uttering that phrase is... simply ironic.
Pretty sure C&P and EvE-O General are separate audiences, at least for the most part.
Also, of course, I don't know Latin. I've just seen The Matrix. And I meant it as a complement, since you indeed seem aware of your nature.
I'll be chilling here all day, whilst I watch football. Nice to see Culpepper on the field again, I always enjoyed watching him when he was throwing to Carter and Moss, even though I've never really been a Vikings fan.
Anyway, Matrix Skye, let me ask. What is it about me specifically that attracts you to my threads? Is it my desire for attention? My love of tears? The fact that I hide in highsec, in a noob corp? Arrogance? Hubris? A crappy portrait/stupid name? Did I blow up your alt? Now is the time to reveal your beef! Drama ahead!
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MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.10.11 17:45:00 -
[29]
Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 11/10/2009 17:45:43
Originally by: Logit Probit Anyway, Matrix Skye, let me ask. What is it about me specifically that attracts you to my threads? Is it my desire for attention?
Yes. Quote: My love of tears?
Yes. Quote: The fact that I hide in highsec, in a noob corp?
Yes. I find this particularly hypocritical and thus, interesting. Quote: Arrogance?
Yes. Quote: Hubris?
Yes. Quote: A crappy portrait/stupid name?
No. Quote: Did I blow up your alt?
I don't think so. Quote: Now is the time to reveal your beef! Drama ahead!
No beef. I just like calling out bull**** when I see it. Consider it MY research :).
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Professor Tarantula
Hedion University
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Posted - 2009.10.11 17:49:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Logit Probit The fact is that anyone who I or my mates have ever destroyed has deserved to lose their ship.
Everyone from Charles Manson to Jack the Ripper convinced themselves their victims deserved it too. The ability for some people to rationalize like that allows them to do terrible things and not see themselves for what they are.
My deepest sympathies. Prof. Tarantula, Esq. |
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