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I want Communists, damnit!

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Zverofaust Gallente Rifters	Posted - 2009.10.13 04:00:00 - [1] I'm here to evoke my displeasure at CCP's entirely one-sided view of the political spectrum via the exclusion of one of the most important political ideologies of our times: Communism. In Eve we've got a bunch of different political ideologies running rampant. The Gallente with their silly free market liberal democracy; Caldari with their goose-stepping fascism; Amarr with their fundamentalist religious principles; and the Minmatar. Who are all "Tribal". Yeah, since when is "Tribism" anywhere near comparable to the other three in what is obviously a post-cultural reference to modern global politics? Maybe, MAYBE you could stretch the limits of believability and see the Tribes as an abstract rendition of post-colonialist Africa and South America. But that still begs the question, where the hell are all the G.D. flag-waving froth-mouthed pinko commies with their worker's councils, proletarian dictatorship and expressions of class warfare? Obviously it doesn't have to do with "political correctness" since you don't seem to have a problem protratying Mussolini-esque corporatism or obvious allusions to modern-day "terrorist" states. So yeah, damnit, I want some frikken space commies.
SetrakDark	Posted - 2009.10.13 04:10:00 - [2] they'd lose
Governor LePetomane Rock Ridge Brokerage Solutions	Posted - 2009.10.13 04:25:00 - [3] I don't want to have to apply for a visa six months in advance to dock at a station? Also, would a communist empire even accept ISK? Hmmmm... the Jove. There you go, the Jove are communists.
Zartanic Red Federation	Posted - 2009.10.13 04:31:00 - [4] Edited by: Zartanic on 13/10/2009 04:33:45 I think the workers council is still deciding on their ship colours which has resulted in some unfortunate assassinations. Then they have to resolve the next item on the agenda, the working time directive issue, which directly conflicts with time spent in space. Then of course the tax rate...95% or 100%? Serious issues these. So they have much more important things to do than be in EVE right now.
Governor LePetomane Rock Ridge Brokerage Solutions	Posted - 2009.10.13 04:37:00 - [5] Seriously though, screw communists. I want me an EoM blastergeddon, black with blue lights. Just let me know which dev's swiss bank account I can start forwarding payments to.
Thuranni Queens of the Stone Age Rote Kapelle	Posted - 2009.10.13 04:41:00 - [6] Originally by: Zverofaust But that still begs the question, where the hell are all the G.D. flag-waving froth-mouthed pinko commies with their worker's councils, proletarian dictatorship and expressions of class warfare? This is pretty well represented in the post-Tibus Heth Caldari State. Read the Empyrean Age novel.
Vincenzo Delloro Amarr Lux et Veritas	Posted - 2009.10.13 05:14:00 - [7] Originally by: Thuranni This is pretty well represented in the post-Tibus Heth Caldari State. Read the Empyrean Age novel. To an extent, though the Caldari State is still intentionally corporatist/oligarchic in flavour in a way that a textbook communist state isn't. Heth's rise to power was framed as a revolt of the workers, but it was pretty clear at the end of the book that nothing much had really changed, even in the overt structure of the society (and the Broker was still doing his thing in the background.) I think to find anything approaching real world communism (rather than the flippant insult used in many political discussions) you'd have to look at groups like the Sansha. Or the drones, if you want to argue they have any sort of political/economic theory in what they do at all. ================================================= Tell me again about how [insert random noun here] has ruined EVE!
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.10.13 05:15:00 - [8] Rogue drones already exist.
Julius Rigel	Posted - 2009.10.13 05:19:00 - [9] Originally by: Zverofaust So yeah, damnit, I want some frikken space commies. Hmmm... 4/10
Khemul Zula Amarr Keisen Trade League	Posted - 2009.10.13 05:35:00 - [10] Edited by: Khemul Zula on 13/10/2009 05:41:31 Originally by: Thuranni Originally by: Zverofaust But that still begs the question, where the hell are all the G.D. flag-waving froth-mouthed pinko commies with their worker's councils, proletarian dictatorship and expressions of class warfare? This is pretty well represented in the post-Tibus Heth Caldari State. Read the Empyrean Age novel. This. Worker revolt. Lots of flag waving, especially while lynching some random Gallente. Seizing of wealth from the upper class to redistribute for "the good of the state". Do not go by the civilization descriptions. Also, "free market liberal democracy" doesn't really fit the Gallente State as shown in the book. It could be argued that the Federation is more of a Socialist state on the edge of becoming a dictatorship.
Zverofaust Gallente Rifters	Posted - 2009.10.13 05:44:00 - [11] What the **** "book" are you people blabbering about?
Khemul Zula Amarr Keisen Trade League	Posted - 2009.10.13 06:01:00 - [12] Originally by: Zverofaust What the **** "book" are you people blabbering about? EVE: The Empyrean Age
Krennel Darius Caldari New Age Solutions	Posted - 2009.10.13 07:17:00 - [13] Originally by: Zverofaust I'm here to evoke my displeasure at CCP's entirely one-sided view of the political spectrum via the exclusion of one of the most important political ideologies of our times: Communism. In Eve we've got a bunch of different political ideologies running rampant. The Gallente with their silly free market liberal democracy; Caldari with their goose-stepping fascism; Amarr with their fundamentalist religious principles; and the Minmatar. Who are all "Tribal". Yeah, since when is "Tribism" anywhere near comparable to the other three in what is obviously a post-cultural reference to modern global politics? Maybe, MAYBE you could stretch the limits of believability and see the Tribes as an abstract rendition of post-colonialist Africa and South America. But that still begs the question, where the hell are all the G.D. flag-waving froth-mouthed pinko commies with their worker's councils, proletarian dictatorship and expressions of class warfare? Obviously it doesn't have to do with "political correctness" since you don't seem to have a problem protratying Mussolini-esque corporatism or obvious allusions to modern-day "terrorist" states. So yeah, damnit, I want some frikken space commies. See Morsus Mihi _________________________________________________ If at first you don't succeed, you're not Chuck Norris
Karlemgne Tides Of War	Posted - 2009.10.13 07:31:00 - [14] Originally by: Zverofaust I'm here to evoke my displeasure at CCP's entirely one-sided view of the political spectrum via the exclusion of one of the most important political ideologies of our times: Communism. In Eve we've got a bunch of different political ideologies running rampant. The Gallente with their silly free market liberal democracy; Caldari with their goose-stepping fascism; Amarr with their fundamentalist religious principles; and the Minmatar. Who are all "Tribal". Yeah, since when is "Tribism" anywhere near comparable to the other three in what is obviously a post-cultural reference to modern global politics? Maybe, MAYBE you could stretch the limits of believability and see the Tribes as an abstract rendition of post-colonialist Africa and South America. But that still begs the question, where the hell are all the G.D. flag-waving froth-mouthed pinko commies with their worker's councils, proletarian dictatorship and expressions of class warfare? Obviously it doesn't have to do with "political correctness" since you don't seem to have a problem protratying Mussolini-esque corporatism or obvious allusions to modern-day "terrorist" states. So yeah, damnit, I want some frikken space commies. I agree with you. Incidentally you are using "begging the question" incorrectly (like 80% of the English speaking population in the world). Please go here, read this, and then correct your ways: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question My sig don't fracking work.
Eliza Farcaster Minmatar Republic University	Posted - 2009.10.13 07:51:00 - [15] It's pretty simple isnt it? Start yourself a new corp - "The people's republic of democratic free speech" Put a 100% tax rate on it. Get some 0.0 space. Provide free ships and fittings to your corp members. Problem solved. Actually, this would be an excellent experiment in communism.
LooknSee	Posted - 2009.10.13 07:51:00 - [16] Originally by: Karlemgne I agree with you. Incidentally you are using "begging the question" incorrectly (like 80% of the English speaking population in the world). Please go here, read this, and then correct your ways: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question I find it quite unlikely that anyone would mistake his use of the phrase. If the purpose of language is to communicate information, and no one misunderstood him, then certainly his use of language served its function, no?
Kesper North Caldari Epiphyte Mining and Exploration Majesta Empire	Posted - 2009.10.13 08:00:00 - [17] Because communism is boring. PROTIP: This is why communism fails in real life, too. -- Killed me? Read about it in my blog! Northern Lights: Solo PVP in EVE Online
Marko Riva Adamant Inc.	Posted - 2009.10.13 08:01:00 - [18] There's a lot of "communist" corps out there and as long as all members (especially leadership) have the sincere intention to make it work then they can do quite nicely. Some of those corps have actually been quite successful.
Herzog Wolfhammer Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2009.10.13 08:09:00 - [19] Communists? We have a lot of people in this game who think they are entitled to other peoples labors, as if they owned it. Is that not enough communism? Sadly those players are bringing their ideals into the game from the real world, but in the real world they vote for real communists (they just never use that title). History note: communism killed more people than the other isms combined in the 20th century. At the least, if we had a communist empire, we could bring out the "in New Eden Russia, Game play YOU" jokes. Let's see, the game does have bible thumpers (Amarr), and Fascists (Caldari), it has it's own warmongering AIPAC style group that can't let go of the past (Minmatar) and a bunch of hypocrites talking liberty out one end but practicing war and oppression out the other like the USA (The Gallente). The Jovians are techno geeks on the verge of insanity and yet we get more sec status for killing NPC pirates who might be the sanest groups except for the bloods. The Intaki are a bunch of mullet-wearing rednecks who likely have Velators up on blocks in just about every front yard. Who am I missing? Yeah, I guess there is room for communism.
Karlemgne Tides Of War	Posted - 2009.10.13 08:55:00 - [20] Originally by: Herzog Wolfhammer Communists? We have a lot of people in this game who think they are entitled to other peoples labors, as if they owned it. Is that not enough communism? Sadly those players are bringing their ideals into the game from the real world, but in the real world they vote for real communists (they just never use that title). History note: communism killed more people than the other isms combined in the 20th century. At the least, if we had a communist empire, we could bring out the "in New Eden Russia, Game play YOU" jokes. Let's see, the game does have bible thumpers (Amarr), and Fascists (Caldari), it has it's own warmongering AIPAC style group that can't let go of the past (Minmatar) and a bunch of hypocrites talking liberty out one end but practicing war and oppression out the other like the USA (The Gallente). The Jovians are techno geeks on the verge of insanity and yet we get more sec status for killing NPC pirates who might be the sanest groups except for the bloods. The Intaki are a bunch of mullet-wearing rednecks who likely have Velators up on blocks in just about every front yard. Who am I missing? Yeah, I guess there is room for communism. Historical note. This only is true if you discount "capitalism" as one of the isms. Karlemgne My sig don't fracking work.
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2009.10.13 08:57:00 - [21] Originally by: Herzog Wolfhammer Communists? We have a lot of people in this game who think they are entitled to other peoples labors, as if they owned it. We generally refer to those as politicians or thieves/robbers. Has nothing to do with political ideology unless you consider self-enrichment such an ideology. Originally by: Herzog Wolfhammer History note: communism killed more people than the other isms combined in the 20th century. Since the world has yet to actually have a communist system, that statement is wrong. CCCP was communist on paper and in propaganda only. It was a weird mash-up of Authoritarianism, Socialism, Oligarchy and Tyranny with sharing of material wealth a one-way street. Communism is an ideology and as such can never be implemented. It is entirely dependent on the people's wish to be part of it but as long as humanity is primarily concerned with matters of self-interest it is not feasible. The ideology of Democracy has caused far more death than all other ideologies combined. The insistence of its practitioners that it is the "end game" of political systems encourages them to use force to "help" others to the same realisation. This behaviour dates all the way back to the Greek with their description of everyone else as barbarians. It is quite well documented since democracies like to gloat a lot
Deva Blackfire Viziam	Posted - 2009.10.13 08:58:00 - [22] Originally by: Kesper North Because communism is boring. PROTIP: This is why communism fails in real life, too. Communism is utopia. And we never had "proper" communism in real life, it was real socialism instead.
Karlemgne Tides Of War	Posted - 2009.10.13 09:03:00 - [23] Originally by: LooknSee Originally by: Karlemgne I agree with you. Incidentally you are using "begging the question" incorrectly (like 80% of the English speaking population in the world). Please go here, read this, and then correct your ways: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question I find it quite unlikely that anyone would mistake his use of the phrase. If the purpose of language is to communicate information, and no one misunderstood him, then certainly his use of language served its function, no? Perhaps you are correct, and usage should dictate rules such that if a word used a particular way is understood by a broad section of the linguistic community, then that particular way should be the rule. I do not, however, subscribe to this theory. Call me a purist, but when college undergraduates turn in papers to me with incorrectly used words and phrases, even if I "understand" what meaning they intended, I grade them down. You would understand me, for instance, if I conjugated the verb "to be" incorrectly. For example (yes I have actually seen this) "I be having the opinion that..." or as a friend of mine once saw "your shoes are old and you looks unplofetional [sic]." Yet I would still say that you are incorrect. Similarly I've also heard stuff like "deaf as a bat" and seen "begging the question" used incorrectly dozens of times. Doesn't mean they are proper uses of the English language, nor does at mean that I shouldn't then point out the mistake. -Karlemgne My sig don't fracking work.
Karlemgne Tides Of War	Posted - 2009.10.13 09:12:00 - [24] Edited by: Karlemgne on 13/10/2009 09:14:09 Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Originally by: Herzog Wolfhammer Communists? We have a lot of people in this game who think they are entitled to other peoples labors, as if they owned it. We generally refer to those as politicians or thieves/robbers. Has nothing to do with political ideology unless you consider self-enrichment such an ideology. Originally by: Herzog Wolfhammer History note: communism killed more people than the other isms combined in the 20th century. Since the world has yet to actually have a communist system, that statement is wrong. CCCP was communist on paper and in propaganda only. It was a weird mash-up of Authoritarianism, Socialism, Oligarchy and Tyranny with sharing of material wealth a one-way street. Communism is an ideology and as such can never be implemented. It is entirely dependent on the people's wish to be part of it but as long as humanity is primarily concerned with matters of self-interest it is not feasible. The ideology of Democracy has caused far more death than all other ideologies combined. The insistence of its practitioners that it is the "end game" of political systems encourages them to use force to "help" others to the same realisation. This behaviour dates all the way back to the Greek with their description of everyone else as barbarians. It is quite well documented since democracies like to gloat a lot The Soviet Union was a "state capitalist" authoritarian system. At best what is termed "a deformed workers state." This really has nothing to do with Marx or Marxism. As you state so correctly, Marxism was used to claim the "authority" of the single party state. Just like the "nation" has been used to justify all kinds of horrors (and still is). Its also interesting to me--a practicing Marxist (yes it is a religion)--what gets ignored in the blanket statements like "Communism has killed more people than anyone else." This of course ignores German Fascism, which claimed to be anti-Marxist and a new type of capitalism. It also ignores the millions of people killed by American backed right wing governments during the Cold War in the Americas, Europe and Asia. It also ignores the people who have been killed in wars overtly carried out in the "name" of capitalism during the Cold War. It also ignores those who died in wars fought for capitalist interests. It ignores the people who were killed either fighting for labor rights, or actually working in factories and mines. Most of all it ignores the countless millions of people who have died from starvation, lack of medicine, shelter and sanitation because they could not "afford" these things. Even though we do not have a crisis of limited resources in the world (enough food is produced to feed everyone on the earth 10 pounds of it it a day). After all, its THEIR fault they didn't work hard enough and that the West consumes nearly 90% of the worlds resources. -Karlemgne My sig don't fracking work.
Sir Question Gallente	Posted - 2009.10.13 09:13:00 - [25] Originally by: Eliza Farcaster It's pretty simple isnt it? Start yourself a new corp - "The people's republic of democratic free speech" Put a 100% tax rate on it. Get some 0.0 space. Provide free ships and fittings to your corp members. Problem solved. Actually, this would be an excellent experiment in communism. My corp did this out in Wormhole space, no need to set the tax rate to 100% because we all gave everything to the corp, the corp sold it and re-distrisbuted as was required, worked quite well until we amalgamated another corp then we went back to taxes and everything you get is your own - doesn't work as well as the coommunist system did as there is less bonded and 'doing it for the team'. ---------------------------------------- Peaceful Restoration of Political Actuality Guild (also Non Disclosure Accredited)
Chaeryl	Posted - 2009.10.13 09:54:00 - [26] Edited by: Chaeryl on 13/10/2009 09:54:29 I support this idea.
Melthariumin Gallente Tactical Reconnaissance	Posted - 2009.10.13 10:07:00 - [27] Originally by: Karlemgne Edited by: Karlemgne on 13/10/2009 09:14:09 Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Originally by: Herzog Wolfhammer Communists? We have a lot of people in this game who think they are entitled to other peoples labors, as if they owned it. We generally refer to those as politicians or thieves/robbers. Has nothing to do with political ideology unless you consider self-enrichment such an ideology. Originally by: Herzog Wolfhammer History note: communism killed more people than the other isms combined in the 20th century. Since the world has yet to actually have a communist system, that statement is wrong. CCCP was communist on paper and in propaganda only. It was a weird mash-up of Authoritarianism, Socialism, Oligarchy and Tyranny with sharing of material wealth a one-way street. Communism is an ideology and as such can never be implemented. It is entirely dependent on the people's wish to be part of it but as long as humanity is primarily concerned with matters of self-interest it is not feasible. The ideology of Democracy has caused far more death than all other ideologies combined. The insistence of its practitioners that it is the "end game" of political systems encourages them to use force to "help" others to the same realisation. This behaviour dates all the way back to the Greek with their description of everyone else as barbarians. It is quite well documented since democracies like to gloat a lot The Soviet Union was a "state capitalist" authoritarian system. At best what is termed "a deformed workers state." This really has nothing to do with Marx or Marxism. As you state so correctly, Marxism was used to claim the "authority" of the single party state. Just like the "nation" has been used to justify all kinds of horrors (and still is). Its also interesting to me--a practicing Marxist (yes it is a religion)--what gets ignored in the blanket statements like "Communism has killed more people than anyone else." This of course ignores German Fascism, which claimed to be anti-Marxist and a new type of capitalism. It also ignores the millions of people killed by American backed right wing governments during the Cold War in the Americas, Europe and Asia. It also ignores the people who have been killed in wars overtly carried out in the "name" of capitalism during the Cold War. It also ignores those who died in wars fought for capitalist interests. It ignores the people who were killed either fighting for labor rights, or actually working in factories and mines. Most of all it ignores the countless millions of people who have died from starvation, lack of medicine, shelter and sanitation because they could not "afford" these things. Even though we do not have a crisis of limited resources in the world (enough food is produced to feed everyone on the earth 10 pounds of it it a day). After all, its THEIR fault they didn't work hard enough and that the West consumes nearly 90% of the worlds resources. -Karlemgne I think this is wasted here. These are the eve-o-forums after all, not some serious discussion board. Just wait for the goons to impact.
Tiffis	Posted - 2009.10.13 10:47:00 - [28] IBTL.
Aylara	Posted - 2009.10.13 11:07:00 - [29] I sign for this.
TimMc Gallente Brutal Deliverance	Posted - 2009.10.13 11:12:00 - [30] Sansha. And there are a few player corps which are commie.
Adunh Slavy	Posted - 2009.10.13 11:53:00 - [31] Originally by: Zverofaust So yeah, damnit, I want some frikken space commies. Send me all of your bourgeoisie ISK. I will make sure it is dispersed amongst the needy proletariat masses. The Real Space Initiative - V6 (Forum Link)
Iracham Gallente	Posted - 2009.10.13 12:07:00 - [32] Originally by: TimMc Sansha Sansha is more of an elitist oligarchy built on the backs of cybernetic space slaves. (not to be confused with the Amarr, who are an elitist religiously zealous quasimonarchy built on the backs of well muscled minmatar space slaves.)
Nova Fox Gallente Novafox Shipyards	Posted - 2009.10.13 13:31:00 - [33] Edited by: Nova Fox on 13/10/2009 13:35:01 Drones Hives are that way -> Communism is a govermental system created for nonhumans. Only beings of highly logical nature such as those belonging to the machine nation can truely embrace all aspects of this form of communion. Any falsely attempts made by those imperfect humans will result in disastorious leveling of unfairness and refute and in the end alot of unhappieness. Pre-order your Sisters of ≡v≡ Exploration ship today, Updated 11OCT09
Slade Trillgon Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.10.13 14:15:00 - [34] Edited by: Slade Trillgon on 13/10/2009 14:16:18 Originally by: Melthariumin Originally by: Karlemgne Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Originally by: Herzog Wolfhammer Communists? We have a lot of people in this game who think they are entitled to other peoples labors, as if they owned it. We generally refer to those as politicians or thieves/robbers. Has nothing to do with political ideology unless you consider self-enrichment such an ideology. Originally by: Herzog Wolfhammer History note: communism killed more people than the other isms combined in the 20th century. Since the world has yet to actually have a communist system, that statement is wrong. CCCP was communist on paper and in propaganda only. It was a weird mash-up of Authoritarianism, Socialism, Oligarchy and Tyranny with sharing of material wealth a one-way street. Communism is an ideology and as such can never be implemented. It is entirely dependent on the people's wish to be part of it but as long as humanity is primarily concerned with matters of self-interest it is not feasible. The ideology of Democracy has caused far more death than all other ideologies combined. The insistence of its practitioners that it is the "end game" of political systems encourages them to use force to "help" others to the same realisation. This behaviour dates all the way back to the Greek with their description of everyone else as barbarians. It is quite well documented since democracies like to gloat a lot The Soviet Union was a "state capitalist" authoritarian system. At best what is termed "a deformed workers state." This really has nothing to do with Marx or Marxism. As you state so correctly, Marxism was used to claim the "authority" of the single party state. Just like the "nation" has been used to justify all kinds of horrors (and still is). Its also interesting to me--a practicing Marxist (yes it is a religion)--what gets ignored in the blanket statements like "Communism has killed more people than anyone else." This of course ignores German Fascism, which claimed to be anti-Marxist and a new type of capitalism. It also ignores the millions of people killed by American backed right wing governments during the Cold War in the Americas, Europe and Asia. It also ignores the people who have been killed in wars overtly carried out in the "name" of capitalism during the Cold War. It also ignores those who died in wars fought for capitalist interests. It ignores the people who were killed either fighting for labor rights, or actually working in factories and mines. Most of all it ignores the countless millions of people who have died from starvation, lack of medicine, shelter and sanitation because they could not "afford" these things. Even though we do not have a crisis of limited resources in the world (enough food is produced to feed everyone on the earth 10 pounds of it it a day). After all, its THEIR fault they didn't work hard enough and that the West consumes nearly 90% of the worlds resources. -Karlemgne I think this is wasted here. These are the eve-o-forums after all, not some serious discussion board. Just wait for the goons to impact. Truths ~~spoken~~ made public are never wasted Slade Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker Please go sit in the corner, and dont forget to don the shame-on-you-hat! =v=
Razin The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx	Posted - 2009.10.13 14:20:00 - [35] Originally by: Herzog Wolfhammer History note: communism killed more people than the other isms combined in the 20th century. Nice limiting it to the 20th century; however I suspect that even as such you pulled this factoid out of your ass. ...
Doddy The Executives IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.10.13 14:26:00 - [36] The caldari are pretty commie tbh, the "state" is divided into mega-corps but other than that they are alot more communist than facist. Communism was just a very small part of the political spectrum you talk about (stalinist russia wasn't really communist, nor was Maoist china, modern china, modern North Korea etc) and i think considering how few factions ccp has to play with, and seeing as how outmoded a concept communism is now (there are hardly any powerful, active communist groups left in the world never mind ones in actual government) never mind in the future its not surprising. The 2 sides of the political spectrum in eve are the ones that really matter in RL too, not left and right but statist and individualist and just like in RL the factions are totally confused about the whole thing. The caldari want to be individualist, indeed the entire reason they exist was perceived threat to individual freedom. However they have instead created through the mega-corps probably the most statist of the 4 empires. Its much like modern right wing americans deriding the "big state" while supporting the huge military behemoth and enormous justice system modern america has. The Gallente want to be statist and believe in the greater good of a democratic state (which led to the caldari war). However their liberal principals, free market economy and free media continually pull their state apart. The individualism of the gallente continually wars against their statist instincts. This is like modern western Europe where you have the seeming contradition of "big states" and individaulism. The Amarr want to be individualist, indeed their aristocracy based culture means they very much should be. There is a big problem however and thats religeon. The Amarr religeon and its ties to the empress essentially makes the empire act statist. State religeon is the most powerful statist influence there is (even when its not really a religeon like communism, ****sm or the leader cult of North Korea). The minmatar want to be statist. The tribal culture, the war against the amarr, the common cause against slavery all make this happen. However minmatar are actually very individualist. They all have different clans and tribes and all have their own interpretations of what being minmatar is. This leads to the weak state and indeed saw the failure of the democratic republic under Midular. Of the minor factions the only one that could be called communist is sanshas nation, but thats not really any more communist than any other sort of statist taken to an extreme. If you really want to shoot space commies those are your guys. Your idea that ccp based its politics on modern global politics is way off anyway, where is the huge aristocracy ruled by a god-empress in RL. last one that could even pretend to be that got topped in 1917 (maybe ccp will make the amarr into space-commies at some point).
MasterEnt	Posted - 2009.10.13 14:29:00 - [37] You want communists - Come to the U.S. We have PLENTY of them here now.
TimMc Gallente Brutal Deliverance	Posted - 2009.10.13 14:31:00 - [38] Originally by: Iracham Originally by: TimMc Sansha Sansha is more of an elitist oligarchy built on the backs of cybernetic space slaves. (not to be confused with the Amarr, who are an elitist religiously zealous quasimonarchy built on the backs of well muscled minmatar space slaves.) And you think a free man can live in a truely communist state?
Esu Nahalas The Night Corporation	Posted - 2009.10.13 14:36:00 - [39] Interesting. EVE could have a communist "race," and anyone joining that "group" should act like real communists. In other words, the industrialists of said "race" should hand over their operations/assets/profits/whatever to the NPC corp, and have that NPC corp distribute those assets/isk any way it sees fit. You might want to try it as a player-run corp first, and let the rest of us know how that works out for you.
Esu Nahalas The Night Corporation	Posted - 2009.10.13 14:41:00 - [40] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Originally by: Kesper North Because communism is boring. PROTIP: This is why communism fails in real life, too. Communism is utopia. And we never had "proper" communism in real life, it was real socialism instead. We didn't send enough people to the Gulag, apparently.
Atropos Kahn Caldari Solarflare Heavy Industries Kahora Catori	Posted - 2009.10.13 14:46:00 - [41] Just say that "Jovians" are commies and be done with it... Now get back to pew pew...
Comrade Commizzar	Posted - 2009.10.13 15:09:00 - [42] We ARE here comrade! Where have YOU been? Forward the Revolution!
Hijax Class47	Posted - 2009.10.13 17:11:00 - [43] If he's getting commies, I want to be able to shoot white,pointy *** rats.
Kristofer Kekius	Posted - 2009.10.13 18:06:00 - [44] OP: And I want Space Germans, what's your point? and if communism couldn't survive 100 years on earth why would it be around twenty thousand years in the future? Whateva.
Dr Karsun Gallente HUSARIA Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2009.10.13 18:11:00 - [45] Well, there aren't really any 'real' communist countries because of one single reason. The communist govs would never reach such advanced technology. Communism has one major flaw - people stop liking it after there is no one to kill. If you'd want REAL communists - they'd be a bunch of degenerates, without any education, simple people and I can't really imagine those having a great big empire structure that is capable of staying alive. The revolts would kill the country extremely fast, because the revolution must go on, it musn't stop. Establishing a country at all, any hierarchy, etc is against the basis of communism. On the other hand, we have communist govs in reality, but they are so, so far away from what Marks wanted... Besides... Aren't the caldari sort of communists? You sure they are pure facists? Making custom signatures and banners - check my in-game bio for details!
Chris Liath Gallente Nex Exercitus Cult of War	Posted - 2009.10.13 18:20:00 - [46] It's dystopian. Go figure. "Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.
Slade Trillgon Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.10.13 18:26:00 - [47] Originally by: Dr Karsun On the other hand, we have communist govs in reality, but they are so, so far away from what Marks wanted. Therefore, they are not really Communist, right? Slade Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker Please go sit in the corner, and dont forget to don the shame-on-you-hat! =v=
Captain Megadeath	Posted - 2009.10.13 19:23:00 - [48] Poasting in yet another "Stoopid right wing yanks without a clue"Ö thread Originally by: Cat o'Ninetails my name actually is short for catherine
Kunming T.H.U.G L.I.F.E The Volition Cult	Posted - 2009.10.13 19:30:00 - [49] A lot of ppl mix up "communism" with "collectivism". EVE can never have a communistic model since u cant track members efficiently, but collectivist models are very effective and many corps use it without even knowing... BTW Russian type communism is hardly a good example of a succesful application of the theory, China is a better model tbh. In the end be it tribalism, monarchy or a democracy, it is the good intentions of the leading body that will bring an organisation forward. Political models dont determine good or evil, they are just a certain system that is efficient under certain contidions and environments.
Zverofaust Gallente Rifters	Posted - 2009.10.13 19:38:00 - [50] Originally by: Karlemgne Edited by: Karlemgne on 13/10/2009 09:14:09 Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Originally by: Herzog Wolfhammer Communists? We have a lot of people in this game who think they are entitled to other peoples labors, as if they owned it. We generally refer to those as politicians or thieves/robbers. Has nothing to do with political ideology unless you consider self-enrichment such an ideology. Originally by: Herzog Wolfhammer History note: communism killed more people than the other isms combined in the 20th century. Since the world has yet to actually have a communist system, that statement is wrong. CCCP was communist on paper and in propaganda only. It was a weird mash-up of Authoritarianism, Socialism, Oligarchy and Tyranny with sharing of material wealth a one-way street. Communism is an ideology and as such can never be implemented. It is entirely dependent on the people's wish to be part of it but as long as humanity is primarily concerned with matters of self-interest it is not feasible. The ideology of Democracy has caused far more death than all other ideologies combined. The insistence of its practitioners that it is the "end game" of political systems encourages them to use force to "help" others to the same realisation. This behaviour dates all the way back to the Greek with their description of everyone else as barbarians. It is quite well documented since democracies like to gloat a lot The Soviet Union was a "state capitalist" authoritarian system. At best what is termed "a deformed workers state." This really has nothing to do with Marx or Marxism. As you state so correctly, Marxism was used to claim the "authority" of the single party state. Just like the "nation" has been used to justify all kinds of horrors (and still is). Its also interesting to me--a practicing Marxist (yes it is a religion)--what gets ignored in the blanket statements like "Communism has killed more people than anyone else." This of course ignores German Fascism, which claimed to be anti-Marxist and a new type of capitalism. It also ignores the millions of people killed by American backed right wing governments during the Cold War in the Americas, Europe and Asia. It also ignores the people who have been killed in wars overtly carried out in the "name" of capitalism during the Cold War. It also ignores those who died in wars fought for capitalist interests. It ignores the people who were killed either fighting for labor rights, or actually working in factories and mines. Most of all it ignores the countless millions of people who have died from starvation, lack of medicine, shelter and sanitation because they could not "afford" these things. Even though we do not have a crisis of limited resources in the world (enough food is produced to feed everyone on the earth 10 pounds of it it a day). After all, its THEIR fault they didn't work hard enough and that the West consumes nearly 90% of the worlds resources. -Karlemgne okay take it easy there Mr Chavez, you wouldn't want someone caving in the back of your skull with an ice axe would you? This is a discussion about why there aren't hempbag-toting, neckbearded space communists, not a discussion about the moral and economic relevancy of stateless communism. besides, its already been established that anyone who is against communism will inevitably end up pressed up against a wall in a dark alley with a gun pointed at the back of their heads, persecuted as enemies of the people by the righteous authority of the liberated proletariat. also, give them a cool abstract symbol made from space tools. like a mining laser crossing a nexus chip.
Stupid McStupidson Gallente Hoek Lyne and Sinker	Posted - 2009.10.13 20:31:00 - [51] In soviet minmataar, carebears gank you!
The AEther Caldari Red Federation	Posted - 2009.10.13 20:51:00 - [52] CCP almost spells ... so what's your problem again?
Komi Toran	Posted - 2009.10.13 21:42:00 - [53] Originally by: Karlemgne Edited by: Karlemgne on 13/10/2009 09:14:09 Since the world has yet to actually have a communist system, that statement is wrong. CCCP was communist on paper and in propaganda only. It was a weird mash-up of Authoritarianism, Socialism, Oligarchy and Tyranny with sharing of material wealth a one-way street. Yes, yes. And no true Scotsman would do such a thing! Originally by: Karlemgne Edited by: Karlemgne on 13/10/2009 09:14:09Communism is an ideology and as such can never be implemented. It is entirely dependent on the people's wish to be part of it but as long as humanity is primarily concerned with matters of self-interest it is not feasible. Yes, all those people in the Soviet Union, in Cambodia, in China, they all wished to be a part of it. That wall was there to keep people from stampeding in, you see. Originally by: Karlemgne Edited by: Karlemgne on 13/10/2009 09:14:09The ideology of Democracy has caused far more death than all other ideologies combined. The insistence of its practitioners that it is the "end game" of political systems encourages them to use force to "help" others to the same realisation. Really? Really? Where the hell do you get this? Certainly not through any actual form of analysis or evidence. It's kinda hard for Democracy to be more violent when Democracies are as likely, statistically, to go to war with non-democracies as non-democracies are likely to go to war with each other, while at the same time it is almost unheard of (of non-existent, depending on your definition) for democracies to go to war with each other. But hey, it's fun pulling assertions out of your ass. Originally by: Karlemgne Edited by: Karlemgne on 13/10/2009 09:14:09This behaviour dates all the way back to the Greek with their description of everyone else as barbarians. It is quite well documented since democracies like to gloat a lot Why yes, the Greeks were absolutely unique in declaring everyone else as barbarians (except they had a strange affinity for those democracy-loving Egyptians). Certainly the Chinese emperor viewed everyone as equals, and the Caliphs knew his was but one civilization among many. You know, it may be beneficial to you to learn something of what has happened on this planet since before you were born. Originally by: Karlemgne Edited by: Karlemgne on 13/10/2009 09:14:09 The Soviet Union was a "state capitalist" authoritarian system. At best what is termed "a deformed workers state." This really has nothing to do with Marx or Marxism. As you state so correctly, Marxism was used to claim the "authority" of the single party state. Just like the "nation" has been used to justify all kinds of horrors (and still is). And no true Scotsman would be caught dead doing such a thing! Originally by: Karlemgne Edited by: Karlemgne on 13/10/2009 09:14:09 This of course ignores German Fascism, which claimed to be anti-Marxist and a new type of capitalism. Look, familiarize yourself with Mussolini and ****'s thoughts before you spew this kind of ignorance. Originally by:** Karlemgne Edited by: Karlemgne on 13/10/2009 09:14:09 Most of all it ignores the countless millions of people who have died from starvation, lack of medicine, shelter and sanitation because they could not "afford" these things. This is the most asinine of them all. The "Green Revolution" emerged from a capitalistic system, feeding more people than most "experts" thought was physically possible. The medicine that you say capitalism has denied people was invented within a capitalistic system. But fine, let's go with Capitalism failed to save millions of people. In which case, we can say the same for Communism, Socialism, Impressionism, Dadaism, Budhism, Athleticism, Pessimism, Pragmatism... etc. etc. Of course you're a Marxist, you're an idiot.
Muad' Dib Gallente Beyond Divinity Inc Beyond Virginity	Posted - 2009.10.13 21:52:00 - [54] Originally by: Zverofaust I'm here to evoke my displeasure at CCP's entirely one-sided view of the political spectrum via the exclusion of one of the most important political ideologies of our times: Communism. In Eve we've got a bunch of different political ideologies running rampant. The Gallente with their silly free market liberal democracy; Caldari with their goose-stepping fascism; Amarr with their fundamentalist religious principles; and the Minmatar. Who are all "Tribal". Yeah, since when is "Tribism" anywhere near comparable to the other three in what is obviously a post-cultural reference to modern global politics? Maybe, MAYBE you could stretch the limits of believability and see the Tribes as an abstract rendition of post-colonialist Africa and South America. But that still begs the question, where the hell are all the G.D. flag-waving froth-mouthed pinko commies with their worker's councils, proletarian dictatorship and expressions of class warfare? Obviously it doesn't have to do with "political correctness" since you don't seem to have a problem protratying Mussolini-esque corporatism or obvious allusions to modern-day "terrorist" states. So yeah, damnit, I want some frikken space commies. Communism doesn't work on humans, works well on ants though. --- I smack just for myself. Allow faction cap boosters to be traded via normal market !
Harisdrop Gallente Copia-WarRages Armaments Legion of xXDEATHXx	Posted - 2009.10.13 22:38:00 - [55] I dont see why this is a bad thing?
Muad' Dib Gallente Beyond Divinity Inc Beyond Virginity	Posted - 2009.10.13 23:04:00 - [56] Originally by: Harisdrop I dont see why this is a bad thing? October 2009 is the 92nd celebration off ... --- I smack just for myself. Allow faction cap boosters to be traded via normal market !
Wideen Total Mayhem. Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2009.10.13 23:07:00 - [57] theoretical political systems of organization fail because people have to be a part of the process of actually realizing them. The practical application shows again and again that the human factor is too great to achieve desired result
Chaeryl	Posted - 2009.10.14 00:40:00 - [58] Originally by: MasterEnt You want communists - Come to the U.S. We have PLENTY of them here now. +1 Internets!
Khemul Zula Amarr Keisen Trade League	Posted - 2009.10.14 01:53:00 - [59] Originally by: Muad' Dib Communism doesn't work on humans, works well on ants though. That's just because we havn't gotten around to bringing democracy to the ants. Eventually we will get around to invading their colonies and teaching them how to form committees to vote on the placement of pieces of sand.
Amitious Turkey Gallente TarNec New Eden Retail Federation	Posted - 2009.10.14 03:07:00 - [60] Originally by: Kahega Amielden Rogue drones already exist. ...Rouge drones? BECAUSE OF FALCONDUST! Originally by: CCP Navigator We love you all as well <3 GO NAVIGATOR <3
Awesome Possum Imperium Signal Corps	Posted - 2009.10.14 03:10:00 - [61] communist nations in eve were so technologically inferior to the big four that they were conquered ages ago. communism is fail, stop bringing it up. ♥ Wreck Disposal Services
Professor Tarantula Hedion University	Posted - 2009.10.14 03:20:00 - [62] Originally by: Awesome Possum communism is fail, stop bringing it up. Yeah, it's not like China pretty much owns the US now or anything. My deepest sympathies. Prof. Tarantula, Esq.
Herzog Wolfhammer Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2009.10.14 05:38:00 - [63] There any room in this game for Jeffersonian Radicals?
Melthariumin Gallente Tactical Reconnaissance	Posted - 2009.10.14 08:09:00 - [64] Wait until CCP introduces the Terrans! Tech 4 could be something like this: "150mm Light 'Kalashnikov' Autocannon" be ready comrades!
Michwich	Posted - 2009.10.14 12:31:00 - [65] Originally by: Zverofaust I'm here to evoke my displeasure at CCP's entirely one-sided view of the political spectrum via the exclusion of one of the most important political ideologies of our times: Communism. In Eve we've got a bunch of different political ideologies running rampant. The Gallente with their silly free market liberal democracy; Caldari with their goose-stepping fascism; Amarr with their fundamentalist religious principles; and the Minmatar. Who are all "Tribal". Yeah, since when is "Tribism" anywhere near comparable to the other three in what is obviously a post-cultural reference to modern global politics? Maybe, MAYBE you could stretch the limits of believability and see the Tribes as an abstract rendition of post-colonialist Africa and South America. But that still begs the question, where the hell are all the G.D. flag-waving froth-mouthed pinko commies with their worker's councils, proletarian dictatorship and expressions of class warfare? Obviously it doesn't have to do with "political correctness" since you don't seem to have a problem protratying Mussolini-esque corporatism or obvious allusions to modern-day "terrorist" states. So yeah, damnit, I want some frikken space commies. Communism, facism, tribalism, whats really the difference, its all the same in practice - smart people stealing from the stupid people. Just call yourself a commie and there you go.
Ozone71 Caldari Kamikaze Fleet Command	Posted - 2009.10.14 16:18:00 - [66] Originally by: Zverofaust Yeah, since when is "Tribism" anywhere near comparable to the other three in what is obviously a post-cultural reference to modern global politics? So yeah, damnit, I want some frikken space commies. This game needs less Tribism, less Tribalism ... and more Tribadism. "Ozone is blue and smells faintly of geraniums." (Qi, BBC TV)
Ehranavaar	Posted - 2009.10.14 16:31:00 - [67] Originally by: Professor Tarantula Originally by: Awesome Possum communism is fail, stop bringing it up. Yeah, it's not like China pretty much owns the US now or anything. the chinese call themselves communists which is a far stretch from actually being communists. there are some real deal communists in the world but they don't seem able to sustain their ideals once the group gets to a few hundred or perhaps a couple thousand tops.
Professor Tarantula Hedion University	Posted - 2009.10.14 17:11:00 - [68] Originally by: Ehranavaar Originally by: Professor Tarantula Originally by: Awesome Possum communism is fail, stop bringing it up. Yeah, it's not like China pretty much owns the US now or anything. the chinese call themselves communists which is a far stretch from actually being communists. there are some real deal communists in the world but they don't seem able to sustain their ideals once the group gets to a few hundred or perhaps a couple thousand tops. Basically after the group or country starts making money. The person or persons in charge always get corrupted, and put themselves over the rest of the people, which isn't communism at all. They should invent a computer program to rule over a communist country and see how that goes. Even if it goes terribly wrong it would be interesting. My deepest sympathies. Prof. Tarantula, Esq.
Joe Starbreaker Octavian Vanguard	Posted - 2009.10.14 17:31:00 - [69] Edited by: Joe Starbreaker on 14/10/2009 17:32:39 Originally by: Zverofaust In Eve we've got a bunch of different political ideologies running rampant. The Gallente with their silly free market liberal democracy; Caldari with their goose-stepping fascism; Amarr with their fundamentalist religious principles; and the Minmatar. Who are all "Tribal". It just goes to show, different people see the "fiction" differently. I see the Gallente as a European social-democratic utopian disaster like the modern-day UK. I see the Caldari as a capitalist meritocracy much maligned by the Gallentean pants-wetters. I see the Minmatar as a libertarian republic in the style of the early (pre-FDR) USA. Only the Amarr seem unrealistic to me, kind of like a movie villain's evil empire. Edit: My alt corp is the Fighting Republicans. Please report any actual communist sightings!
Karlemgne Tides Of War	Posted - 2009.10.14 19:04:00 - [70] Originally by: Ehranavaar Originally by: Professor Tarantula Originally by: Awesome Possum communism is fail, stop bringing it up. Yeah, it's not like China pretty much owns the US now or anything. the chinese call themselves communists which is a far stretch from actually being communists. there are some real deal communists in the world but they don't seem able to sustain their ideals once the group gets to a few hundred or perhaps a couple thousand tops. Any authoritarian state, no less one that has private property inscribed in their constitution, does not really qualify as "Communist." My sig don't fracking work.
Karlemgne Tides Of War	Posted - 2009.10.14 19:12:00 - [71] Originally by: Zverofaust okay take it easy there Mr Chavez, you wouldn't want someone caving in the back of your skull with an ice axe would you? This is a discussion about why there aren't hempbag-toting, neckbearded space communists, not a discussion about the moral and economic relevancy of stateless communism. besides, its already been established that anyone who is against communism will inevitably end up pressed up against a wall in a dark alley with a gun pointed at the back of their heads, persecuted as enemies of the people by the righteous authority of the liberated proletariat. also, give them a cool abstract symbol made from space tools. like a mining laser crossing a nexus chip. Hey, I was not the first to bring this up. Its humorous that its okay for someone to talk **** about Marxist philosophy by gesturing emphatically at the Soviet Union and lecturing us all on how bad Marxism is because the Soviet Union used (that's the key word) Marxism to justify single party rule, but the moment someone steps in and defends Marxism as a philosophy, he's WAY off topic. As for the rest of your neat little story, we all know that you are better "dead" than "red" and that if you are a communist caught in an American client country, you are most likely going to be disappeared, your body dumped into a pit, after your head was beaten in by a rifle butt for being an enemy of "freedom." Either that or your village has been firebombed and your family killed. We could play this game forever. My sig don't fracking work.
Karlemgne Tides Of War	Posted - 2009.10.14 19:39:00 - [72] Originally by: Muad' Dib Originally by: Harisdrop I dont see why this is a bad thing? October 2009 is the 92nd celebration off ... Let me guess? The October revolution? :D Yes I realize that my commentary is wasted. I just can't, and this a personal fault of mine, let people get away with that kind of defamation of Marxism as a sociological and economic theory. To the fighting republicans guy: I'm a Marxist (and worse for you an American one!) Come get me. I live in Dastryns. -Karlemgne My sig don't fracking work.
Hoo Is	Posted - 2009.10.14 20:49:00 - [73] mmmm Communism, great in theory, craptastic in execution. Kinda like some big nation's current leader's idea of hope and change... it looked great on a teleprompter, but has sucked more than a 2-bit **** star in it's execution. ---- a reply which adds nothing to a thread or results in a thread being bumped with no new discussion worthy content is considered spam and as such warrants a forum ban
Joe Starbreaker Octavian Vanguard	Posted - 2009.10.14 21:27:00 - [74] Edited by: Joe Starbreaker on 14/10/2009 21:27:10 Originally by: Karlemgne Yes I realize that my commentary is wasted. I just can't, and this a personal fault of mine, let people get away with that kind of defamation of Marxism as a sociological and economic theory. To the fighting republicans guy: I'm a Marxist (and worse for you an American one!) Come get me. I live in Dastryns. Oh boo hoo! They're badmouthing Marxism. Those mean, mean people who stand in the way of you murdering your neighbors and taking what they have. How cruelly they cling to their life, liberty, and property despite your desire to enslave and exploit them. How much longer must we wait until the day when people will understand the truth -- that the combination of power, corruption, and inhumanity will lead mankind into a brave new utopian future?
Guillame Herschel Gallente NME1	Posted - 2009.10.14 22:30:00 - [75] Originally by: Herzog Wolfhammer History note: communism killed more people than the other isms combined in the 20th century. Physics note: isms can't kill since they are not physical agents able to wield weapons. That'd be people you're thinking of. People killed more people than any other killer combined in the 20th century. Communism and anti-communism were just two of the many, many reasons people used to justify their killing. *-- He said "The President is near."*
Esu Nahalas The Night Corporation	Posted - 2009.10.14 22:31:00 - [76] Originally by: Karlemgne Originally by: Zverofaust okay take it easy there Mr Chavez, you wouldn't want someone caving in the back of your skull with an ice axe would you? This is a discussion about why there aren't hempbag-toting, neckbearded space communists, not a discussion about the moral and economic relevancy of stateless communism. besides, its already been established that anyone who is against communism will inevitably end up pressed up against a wall in a dark alley with a gun pointed at the back of their heads, persecuted as enemies of the people by the righteous authority of the liberated proletariat. also, give them a cool abstract symbol made from space tools. like a mining laser crossing a nexus chip. Hey, I was not the first to bring this up. Its humorous that its okay for someone to talk **** about Marxist philosophy . . . . Well, apart from the fact that Marx's Labor Theory of Value ranks up there with George W. Bush Caused Hurricane Katrina as a discredited theory, the idea that a bunch of folks playing an internet game that they (presumably) pay for with their own money, on equipment that they (presumably) paid for out of their own funds, can ascribe to some BS collectivist theory of anything is the real joke.
Guillame Herschel Gallente NME1	Posted - 2009.10.14 22:40:00 - [77] Edited by: Guillame Herschel on 14/10/2009 22:44:49 Originally by: Esu Nahalas Interesting. EVE could have a communist "race," and anyone joining that "group" should act like real communists. In other words, the industrialists of said "race" should hand over their operations/assets/profits/whatever to the NPC corp, and have that NPC corp distribute those assets/isk any way it sees fit. You've described comic-book communists, the ones Superman was fighting in the 50's. Edit to add: on second thought, you've described capitalist manufacturing more than anything else. The worker makes something of value, and the boss takes it away to do with as he sees fit. The worker has no say over the disposition of the fruits of his labors. *-- He said "The President is near."*
Aylara	Posted - 2009.10.14 22:41:00 - [78] I wonder what's worst: resisting brinwash in a communist country, or getting brainwashed in a capitalist one!
Robert0288 Caldari g guild Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2009.10.14 22:45:00 - [79] Originally by: Guillame Herschel Originally by: Herzog Wolfhammer History note: communism killed more people than the other isms combined in the 20th century. Physics note: isms can't kill since they are not physical agents able to wield weapons. That'd be people you're thinking of. People killed more people than any other killer combined in the 20th century. Communism and anti-communism were just two of the many, many reasons people used to justify their killing. Thats nice but people don't kill people for shi)ts and giggles. Those deaths weren't an enevitability and then chalked up to the -isms. The causi belli in this case was the fact you had two opposing views both of whom where expansionist and mutually exclusive. Also anyone who thinks china is actually 'communist' should probably get their head examined.
Guillame Herschel Gallente NME1	Posted - 2009.10.14 22:48:00 - [80] Originally by: Robert0288 Originally by: Guillame Herschel Physics note: isms can't kill since they are not physical agents able to wield weapons. That'd be people you're thinking of. People killed more people than any other killer combined in the 20th century. Communism and anti-communism were just two of the many, many reasons people used to justify their killing. Thats nice but people don't kill people for shi)ts and giggles. Those deaths weren't an enevitability and then chalked up to the -isms. The causi belli in this case was the fact you had two opposing views both of whom where expansionist and mutually exclusive. Then the real cause of all those deaths were mutually exclusive expansionist aspirations. In other words, land and resources, the same things people fought over for millenia. So in that sense, all those deaths of the 20th century were inevitable and the -isms they are blamed on were merely the convenient justifications of the day for the elite to rally the general population to war. *-- He said "The President is near."*
Robert0288 Caldari g guild Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2009.10.14 22:59:00 - [81] Originally by: Guillame Herschel Originally by: Robert0288 Originally by: Guillame Herschel Physics note: isms can't kill since they are not physical agents able to wield weapons. That'd be people you're thinking of. People killed more people than any other killer combined in the 20th century. Communism and anti-communism were just two of the many, many reasons people used to justify their killing. Thats nice but people don't kill people for shi)ts and giggles. Those deaths weren't an enevitability and then chalked up to the -isms. The causi belli in this case was the fact you had two opposing views both of whom where expansionist and mutually exclusive. Then the real cause of all those deaths were mutually exclusive expansionist aspirations. In other words, land and resources, the same things people fought over for millenia. So in that sense, all those deaths of the 20th century were inevitable and the -isms they are blamed on were merely the convenient justifications of the day for the elite to rally the general population to war. Except in this case the war wasn't faught over land and resources but instead market acess, means of production, resulting in a clash of ideology, a clash of -isms
Joe Starbreaker Octavian Vanguard	Posted - 2009.10.14 23:00:00 - [82] Edited by: Joe Starbreaker on 14/10/2009 22:59:58 Originally by: Guillame Herschel on second thought, you've described capitalist manufacturing more than anything else. The worker makes something of value, and the boss takes it away to do with as he sees fit. The worker has no say over the disposition of the fruits of his labors. What you've described is slavery. It can only be considered "capitalism" if you subscribe to the notion that people can be property. (Since you seem to be apologizing for Marxism, the answer is yes.) The freedoms of life, speech, religious expression, property ownership, and enterprise, guaranteed by rule of law, are a combination that together unleash the fullest potential of man. Your rhetorical tactic is to pick one freedom - property ownership - and give an example of its perversion under a tyrannical slave state, as a way of criticizing freedom in general. No one but the willfully gullible would be convinced by this.
JordanParey Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.10.14 23:02:00 - [83] Originally by: Ozone71 Originally by: Zverofaust Yeah, since when is "Tribism" anywhere near comparable to the other three in what is obviously a post-cultural reference to modern global politics? So yeah, damnit, I want some frikken space commies. This game needs less Tribism, less Tribalism ... and more Tribadism. Agreed. We need a renegade faction of space lesbians
Camios Minmatar Insurgent New Eden Tribe Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2009.10.14 23:03:00 - [84] I would say Eve is fundamentally communist. Everybody can live withou fearing starvation, being fired, you have always a free ship and the means to start if you had some accidents. You will always be fed and get a place to sleep and you'll have a job. That's communism. So if everybody did not shoot at each other, Eve would be a fully comunist society in the usual term. But since not even death can stop us, you have always a possibility to become what you want. Eve is a game. But even in a RPG perpective, for the capsuleers the war is a game because you cannot die and yes, you can lose stuff, but that stuff is not needed to live. So I would say Eve is a war game played by characters living in a rich communist society.
Joe Starbreaker Octavian Vanguard	Posted - 2009.10.14 23:06:00 - [85] Originally by: Guillame Herschel Then the real cause of all those deaths were mutually exclusive expansionist aspirations. In other words, land and resources, the same things people fought over for millenia. The deaths I assume you're referring to were mainly perpetrated by governments against their own people. Are you suggesting that ****** and his various Quislings were competing with "expansionist" policies by the Jews in the Europhean ghettoes? That Mao was competing with "expansionist" college professors and dissidents over land and property, and that's why he killed them? The dozens of millions murdered by leftist dictators in the effort to sustain their tyrranies far outnumber the battlefield casualties in the clashes between those nations and the free world. Or perhaps you think that the free world was one of the parties with "expansionist aspirations". If so, can you explain how in a century of victory against tyranny, the USA didn't pick up any new territory? Why didn't we enslave the Russians and take their lands when we defeated them?
Camios Minmatar Insurgent New Eden Tribe Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2009.10.14 23:23:00 - [86] Originally by: Joe Starbreaker Edited by: Joe Starbreaker on 14/10/2009 22:59:58 The freedoms of life, speech, religious expression, property ownership, and enterprise, guaranteed by rule of law, are a combination that together unleash the fullest potential of man. This is still subject to historical conditions. In the Roman Empire, slavery was the necessary form of production for the society and nobody ever tought about cancelling that institution. Even the slaves that followed Spartacus just wanted to free themselves, while someone else would become a slave in their place. Now property ownership is still tought about as you do. In some conditions, property (that is the prohibition to other to use some stuff that in that way become yours) can create a competition that is positive for the development of the civilization. Then you will defend it. But competition between people or institutions can be also negative and bring destruction and war. And don't tell me that poperty is a trait of human nature, because all people can share everything with everyone if they trust other people. If you don't want to share something with a person you trust, it is just because you need that thing, or because you just behave like a child. That's a problem of trust, people are scared of losing things.
Camios Minmatar Insurgent New Eden Tribe Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2009.10.14 23:37:00 - [87] Originally by: Joe Starbreaker The deaths I assume you're referring to were mainly perpetrated by governments against their own people. Are you suggesting that ****** and his various Quislings were competing with "expansionist" policies by the Jews in the Europhean ghettoes? That Mao was competing with "expansionist" college professors and dissidents over land and property, and that's why he killed them? The dozens of millions murdered by leftist dictators in the effort to sustain their tyrranies far outnumber the battlefield casualties in the clashes between those nations and the free world. Or perhaps you think that the free world was one of the parties with "expansionist aspirations". If so, can you explain how in a century of victory against tyranny, the USA didn't pick up any new territory? Why didn't we enslave the Russians and take their lands when we defeated them? 1. Dictators in 20th centiry were "communist" dictators, or "national socialist" dictators because in that century the only way to get the political power was to get the masses attention, to inspire them with an idea of justice or national revenge. 2. USA did not defeat Russia at all. A large portion of the communist establishment went for capitalism because they could have more power that way. 3. The best way to exploit people is not making them suffer with slavery. If you want to exploit someone, the best thing to do is to give him some money through banks or so, then to give him a goal so that he will keep on working for you at any cost in order to achieve his vanity.
James Holcomb Caldari Davy Jones Locker Enforcers of Serenity	Posted - 2009.10.15 01:33:00 - [88] The problem with an active communist political philosophy in the world of Eve actually stems from Clones. Other forms of government hold up to Clones as their design doesn't include the one unique feature required by communism. That is... The murder of 10% of your communist population every couple of years to maintain the governmental order. Clones make it rather hard to kill the required 10% since you'll just wake up a few seconds later in a new body. That really is the reason why it hasn't been included. Since communism is the only political philosophy known to man that requires this removal to remain successful.
Khemul Zula Amarr Keisen Trade League	Posted - 2009.10.15 01:44:00 - [89] Originally by: Joe Starbreaker If so, can you explain how in a century of victory against tyranny, the USA didn't pick up any new territory? Why didn't we enslave the Russians and take their lands when we defeated them? Two reasons. 1. The USA has a policy of not going to war for expansionist reason. As a result it tends to go to war for idiologically reasons. Basically it is okay to invade a country and install a democratic government, but not okay to integrate that land into the USA. If you include the new governments that have been installed (or attempted to install in many cases) around the world, then you will see quite a bit of territory picked up (especially if you include the failed attempts). 2. How are we defining "victory" and "defeated"?
Exitar Stormscion	Posted - 2009.10.15 03:28:00 - [90] Originally by: Hoo Is mmmm Communism, great in theory, craptastic in execution. Kinda like some big nation's current leader's idea of hope and change... it looked great on a teleprompter, but has sucked more than a 2-bit **** star in it's execution. BTW If communism is fail that does not make capitalism any good it is just lesser evil considering that on this capitalistic planet way more then 70% of people dont have anything to eat and work almost like slave labor for the rest who live there american dream. It was problem at the start of 20th century and after failed experiment with SSSR now we have reseted and went 100 years back to the old ways that forced experiment in the first place. Mortal in body Eternal in will.
ceaon Gallente	Posted - 2009.10.15 07:59:00 - [91] Rouge drones are communist
Melthariumin Gallente Tactical Reconnaissance	Posted - 2009.10.15 08:37:00 - [92] Originally by: Exitar Stormscion Originally by: Hoo Is mmmm Communism, great in theory, craptastic in execution. Kinda like some big nation's current leader's idea of hope and change... it looked great on a teleprompter, but has sucked more than a 2-bit **** star in it's execution. BTW If communism is fail that does not make capitalism any good it is just lesser evil considering that on this capitalistic planet way more then 70% of people dont have anything to eat and work almost like slave labor for the rest who live there american dream. It was problem at the start of 20th century and after failed experiment with SSSR now we have reseted and went 100 years back to the old ways that forced experiment in the first place. Its evolution baby! Constant improvement on economical and/or political theories will lead (hopefully) to something more perfect. Minor setbacks are just a part of the process. State capitalism(a.k.a. corporatism) will be going the same way as state socialism did it's just a matter of time.
Pac SubCom Stealthfield Ihatalo Cartel Navy	Posted - 2009.10.15 08:57:00 - [93] I wonder where the democratic corps or alliances are. --------------- ∞ TQFE
Kestrix	Posted - 2009.10.15 09:08:00 - [94] Communism is a family of economic and political ideas and social movements related to the establishment of an egalitarian, classless and stateless society based on common ownership and control of the means of production and property in general. How do you plan on implimenting that? Are you going to strip all posestions from your members and distribute them out between everyone in the corp, or if you are going to model your corp on real life Communism, then all the good stuff will end up in the CEO's hanger and to a lesser degree the directors and all the 'common' members will be left with the crap stuff. Communism looks ok on paper but in pratice once mixed with human nature it fails horribly.
Doddy The Executives IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.10.15 10:29:00 - [95] Originally by: Professor Tarantula Originally by: Awesome Possum communism is fail, stop bringing it up. Yeah, it's not like China pretty much owns the US now or anything. Indeed, which pretty much proves they are not remotely communist tbh. China hasn't been communist for a good 10 years at least probably more. Its a fairly advanced oligarchy now.
Steirmann	Posted - 2009.10.15 11:31:00 - [96] Originally by: Marko Riva There's a lot of "communist" corps out there and as long as all members (especially leadership) have the sincere intention to make it work then they can do quite nicely. Some of those corps have actually been quite successful. One problem with communism (and socialism, or any system that gives things away) is people who and try and live off the hard work of the others and don't contribute their fair share. EVE corps can kick out people who don't pull their weight, nations are stuck with the lazy parasites. The Sansha nation sort of solved that problem.
Joe Zalt The Fighting Republicans	Posted - 2009.10.15 14:03:00 - [97] Originally by: Pac SubCom I wonder where the democratic corps or alliances are. I'm looking for them, so I can war deck them! (Hopefully they'll make it mutual so we can save a bit of cash...)

CCP Zymurgist Gallente	Posted - 2009.10.15 15:34:00 - [98] Locked. Discussion has turned off-topic and political. Zymurgist Community Representative CCP Hf, EVE Online Contact us


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