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tezteztez
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Posted - 2009.10.19 16:56:00 -
[1]
Instead of making advanced skills require L5, just make them require L4. it opens up alot of the game to everyone (thru ships, mods and professions) and makes sure what you put in the game is atleast enjoyed or experienced. the others can still train to l5 if they want the extra advantage that it brings but making it as a barrier to content is counterproductive to most mmos.
this change doesnt hurt the veterans at all, theyll still have the advantage in being in the game longer (knowledge).
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Syberbolt8
Gallente
Knights of Kador
Freedom of Elbas
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Posted - 2009.10.19 17:42:00 -
[2]
 Originally by: tezteztez
Instead of making advanced skills require L5, just make them require L4. it opens up alot of the game to everyone (thru ships, mods and professions) and makes sure what you put in the game is atleast enjoyed or experienced. the others can still train to l5 if they want the extra advantage that it brings but making it as a barrier to content is counterproductive to most mmos.
this change doesnt hurt the veterans at all, theyll still have the advantage in being in the game longer (knowledge).
The whole point of requireing lvl 5 skills is to prevent you form training into everything to quickly, while your idea would be nice for about 6 months, after i could fly everything in the game, and use every module I think i would get board. Thanks but I like it the way it is.
/me hands tezteztez a flame suite equiped with extra thermal hardeners.
Support the DEAD HORSE POS's |
De Guantanamo
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Posted - 2009.10.19 18:02:00 -
[3]
SPECIALIZATION
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Yolo
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.10.25 09:19:00 -
[4]
I dont get the "Requirements" skills.
You have navigation lvl 1, congratulations you can now navigate ALL SHIPS... no?
OK, you should not get any bonuses with all ships, because you dont have the related skills.
But you should be able to fly it.
You might be able to equipt t2 weapons, but you dont have the related skills for all the nice bonuses, making them almost like your t1 weapons.
Today you cant even fit an item on your ship if you dont have the skills.
cmon, we are in POD's its the station people that equipt our ships.
Why cant they put it on (even if I couldnt use it)
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Valandril
Caldari
Ex-Mortis
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Posted - 2009.10.25 09:35:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Yolo
I dont get the "Requirements" skills.
You have navigation lvl 1, congratulations you can now navigate ALL SHIPS... no?
OK, you should not get any bonuses with all ships, because you dont have the related skills.
But you should be able to fly it.
You might be able to equipt t2 weapons, but you dont have the related skills for all the nice bonuses, making them almost like your t1 weapons.
Today you cant even fit an item on your ship if you dont have the skills.
cmon, we are in POD's its the station people that equipt our ships.
Why cant they put it on (even if I couldnt use it)
And if i will give you part of car enging and tell you to mount it in proper place, can you do it without "car engine knownledge lvl4" ? No you can't
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159Pinky
Trans-Solar Works
Rooks and Kings
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Posted - 2009.10.25 12:52:00 -
[6]
No, there are certain skills that require some time to learn? Why to avoid having everyone have them and to avoid having newbs using skills they don't understand.
Just for the lolz: training racial carrier skill will no longer require the bs to be trained to V, jump drive operation V ... you get the drift: every newb will be in carriers in no time ( GTC ftw ) and we'll get all those guys complaining that they get killed in their wtfpwnmobile and that the game is not fair ...
So I still think some skills should be harder to reach just to protect the players from doing something stupid. And offcourse, the training is allready very balanced 
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Slobodanka
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Posted - 2009.10.25 15:11:00 -
[7]
Originally by: 159Pinky
Just for the lolz: training racial carrier skill will no longer require the bs to be trained to V, jump drive operation V ...
Please tell me this is a joke... I can understand the humor behind poping some n00b in a carrier ratting in low sec with engineering 4 and BS 3 and drone operation 2 (those fighters can hit quite well even if it's only two of them), but if this will go live on TQ then eve is in very steep downward spiral to becoming wow-online with few more spreadsheets.
Honestly, why would an empire dwelling char need a combat cap ship? And if said char is planning to move into 0.0 where he/she could actually fly said ship, surely spending month or two training for the _biggest_and_meanest_ships_in_the_game_ is not much of a sacrifice? Or is this just an attempt to enable us to make cheap cap alts to fly around with no implants and have cheap clones?
Hell just reduce titan skills to spaceship command 3 and maybe jump drive calibration 1 (if you lower it's prereq to jump drive op 3) and we'll all be flying giant amarr ****s around.
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Jugon
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Posted - 2009.10.25 15:21:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Yolo
I dont get the "Requirements" skills.
You have navigation lvl 1, congratulations you can now navigate ALL SHIPS... no?
OK, you should not get any bonuses with all ships, because you dont have the related skills.
But you should be able to fly it.
You might be able to equipt t2 weapons, but you dont have the related skills for all the nice bonuses, making them almost like your t1 weapons.
Today you cant even fit an item on your ship if you dont have the skills.
cmon, we are in POD's its the station people that equipt our ships.
Why cant they put it on (even if I couldnt use it)
Just had a bad flashback of Everquest .... While I have to admit there are some skills out there that I wish didn't require Lvl 5 skills. Most of those skills are being Revamped to require Lvl 4 by CCP as time goes on (Dominion has quite a few these).
There is a point in Req Level 5 Skills, and they need to stay. They make you determine whether or not you want your Character to have a Focus Point on that Particular Skill. Ship Classes and Weapon Specializations instantly jump into mind as things that need to keep lvl 5 Pre Requisites (I'm sure there are others).
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Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
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Posted - 2009.10.25 15:43:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Jugon
Originally by: Yolo
I dont get the "Requirements" skills.
You have navigation lvl 1, congratulations you can now navigate ALL SHIPS... no?
OK, you should not get any bonuses with all ships, because you dont have the related skills.
But you should be able to fly it.
You might be able to equipt t2 weapons, but you dont have the related skills for all the nice bonuses, making them almost like your t1 weapons.
Today you cant even fit an item on your ship if you dont have the skills.
cmon, we are in POD's its the station people that equipt our ships.
Why cant they put it on (even if I couldnt use it)
Just had a bad flashback of Everquest .... While I have to admit there are some skills out there that I wish didn't require Lvl 5 skills. Most of those skills are being Revamped to require Lvl 4 by CCP as time goes on (Dominion has quite a few these).
There is a point in Req Level 5 Skills, and they need to stay. They make you determine whether or not you want your Character to have a Focus Point on that Particular Skill. Ship Classes and Weapon Specializations instantly jump into mind as things that need to keep lvl 5 Pre Requisites (I'm sure there are others).
My feelings are sort of like this too. Players should be able to do the basics of most things very fast. For example being useful in PvP, able to do missions, start trading immediately, being able to produce something immediately, being able to explore things and fit basic ship equipment. This will require, that the basics of these professions need to have low skill requirements.
This doesn't mean, that further specialisation levels in the same career should be as easy to obtain. If you start messing with those skill requirements, you start to create new problems with lowering the value of specialisation. The faster it is to train for the higher tiers of specialisation, the less valuable that specialisation becomes.
CCP is right on the money with the skill system. The first steps are fast and easy, but specialisation takes time and makes a difference. It also makes sure your choices have consequenses and encourages playing in groups, where others can complement your choices and make up for any weaknesses.
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tezteztez
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Posted - 2009.10.25 15:50:00 -
[10]
l5 = carrot on a stick for Eve
and btw im mostly complaining about certain skills and not every L5. i wouldnt want everyone to be on a carrier / dread / titan nor want everyone discarding t1 for t2 but take for example advance weapon upgrades.
also the fact that you are required to train from small to large doesnt make sense. frigate / cruiser / battleship tier needs to be decoupled from each other or atleast require l4 not l5.
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2009.10.25 15:59:00 -
[11]
Originally by: tezteztez
l5 = carrot on a stick for Eve
and btw im mostly complaining about certain skills and not every L5. i wouldnt want everyone to be on a carrier / dread / titan nor want everyone discarding t1 for t2 but take for example advance weapon upgrades.
also the fact that you are required to train from small to large doesnt make sense. frigate / cruiser / battleship tier needs to be decoupled from each other or atleast require l4 not l5.
frigate -> cruiser -> battleship already just require lvl4 of the previous skill.
small -> medium -> large turrets even only require lvl3.
do you play the game?
additionally i want to state:
skill requirements at lvl5 are good. if you want to specialize (e.g. cruiser -> HAC) you should be investing time also for your personal training. (how do i fly my cruiser so i dont die every time). Most people totally forget the player skills required for this game.
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Misanthra
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Posted - 2009.10.25 16:02:00 -
[12]
Eve ain't wow, warhammer, etc where you cases of caffienated drinks and a long weekend or 2 of mobbing it gets you level 40. For good reason. Needs real playing skills in addition to the game level skills to be effective. Play like crap in a T2 ships cause we'll say for arguments sake CCP lowers training requirements...its a wreck waiting to be salvaged. Just because eve says you can fly a ship....does not mean you can fly it well. That takes time. Why the waiting is good imo.
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tezteztez
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Posted - 2009.10.25 16:10:00 -
[13]
Originally by: darius mclever
Originally by: tezteztez
l5 = carrot on a stick for Eve
and btw im mostly complaining about certain skills and not every L5. i wouldnt want everyone to be on a carrier / dread / titan nor want everyone discarding t1 for t2 but take for example advance weapon upgrades.
also the fact that you are required to train from small to large doesnt make sense. frigate / cruiser / battleship tier needs to be decoupled from each other or atleast require l4 not l5.
frigate -> cruiser -> battleship already just require lvl4 of the previous skill.
small -> medium -> large turrets even only require lvl3.
do you play the game?
additionally i want to state:
skill requirements at lvl5 are good. if you want to specialize (e.g. cruiser -> HAC) you should be investing time also for your personal training. (how do i fly my cruiser so i dont die every time). Most people totally forget the player skills required for this game.
dont be an idiot, ofcourse i wasnt referring to t1 when i made my comment on decoupling the 3 tiers. look at other skills that require you training from the bottom / last tier. now do you play the game?
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Jenna Sol
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Posted - 2009.10.25 16:22:00 -
[14]
I think they should change this for certain skills, ships and modules.
Let's say I want to try the Covert Ops ships. Just for the Cheetah (which is nothing exceptional really), I need Electronic Upgrades V and Minmatar Frigates V. Now I want to try using cloaking. I will need Electronics V (I know you would get that skill to V eventually anyway for the CPU bonuses). With decent attributes it would take about one month (more or less, excluding other skills you need)) just to fly this the way it was meant to be and it's the low-end covert ops ship.
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tezteztez
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Posted - 2009.10.25 16:23:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Misanthra
Eve ain't wow, warhammer, etc where you cases of caffienated drinks and a long weekend or 2 of mobbing it gets you level 40. For good reason. Needs real playing skills in addition to the game level skills to be effective. Play like crap in a T2 ships cause we'll say for arguments sake CCP lowers training requirements...its a wreck waiting to be salvaged. Just because eve says you can fly a ship....does not mean you can fly it well. That takes time. Why the waiting is good imo.
i never did compare directly those games to eve, doing so is = flamebait. but if you must then heres an example. back in everquest, most of the content is only accessible to most people after 3 years have passed. back then, when the mindset wasnt tainted by wow it was acceptable. now it isnt.
i do agree tho on your opinion about t2 ships or high end ships but it benefits both player. from lessons learned from the loser to salvage earned by the winner. most players dont quit because theyre losing, theyre more likely to quit when theyre ability to play access content is hindered. also i wished ccp would change their strategy on holding subscribers, instead of the subscriber stayin in the game to gain points while subscribed, subscriber should be staying in the game because they love the game and looking forward to expansions and stuff.
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2009.10.25 16:25:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Jenna Sol
I think they should change this for certain skills, ships and modules.
Let's say I want to try the Covert Ops ships. Just for the Cheetah (which is nothing exceptional really), I need Electronic Upgrades V and Minmatar Frigates V. Now I want to try using cloaking. I will need Electronics V (I know you would get that skill to V eventually anyway for the CPU bonuses). With decent attributes it would take about one month (more or less, excluding other skills you need)) just to fly this the way it was meant to be and it's the low-end covert ops ship.
you got a probe for your waiting time. which has similar bonuses and only lacks the flying cloaked part. so in the time you train towards the cheetah you can do your job well already and just gain more once you get e.g. covop cloaks.
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Dacryphile
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Posted - 2009.10.25 16:31:00 -
[17]
When I started I got most things up to III or IV. Then when I wanted to move into T2 ships I started to have to train skills to V. Yeah it takes time and I wished I only had to train to IV, but that lvl V time is a wall that creates the essence of specializations. If you take that wall down, everyone will be able to do everything too easily and you will destroy the essence of specialization.
The way it is now is just fine imo. With lvl I or II you can fit most T1 modules, but if you want to fit the good stuff you have to invest more time into it.
Same with ships. You can get some experience with T1 ships, but if you find something you like and want that T2 bones you have to put in the training time to get it.
Lastly, there is a great feeling that comes with getting a skill fully trained. You know you have the maximum benefit and never need to touch that skill again.
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Reggie Stoneloader
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2009.10.25 20:33:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Reggie Stoneloader on 25/10/2009 20:36:06
I'd agree on some points, like T2 weapon and drone skills becoming available at level 4 in the pre-reqs, but not T2 ships.
For me, level 5 requirements are all about specialization and identity. The ships you can fly are a big factor in determining your character's role in an organization.
It's a big deal to be able to fly a Hulk or pilot an Absolution, because it allows you to get a big boost in performance over the T1 counterpart that's immediately recognizable to other players. I think it should stay hard to get to. Same goes for capital ships, perhaps even moreso, since cap piloting is a big milestone that's already becoming far too common.
But an extra few weeks to use T2 medium turrets? Nah. The fitting penalties and cost make them sub-optimal in some cases, and it's a good idea to make these things available to pilots earlier on, when the drawbacks are relevant. By the time you train for T2 heavy missiles, you've already got such great fitting skills that you don't have to think twice about strapping them on your Drake. I'd like to see them available, but less useful at earlier SP marks.
After all, what's the reason for requiring level 5 skills (several in some cases) to use the T2 guns, when level IV is enough to get T2 afterburners or MWD or armor hardeners etc.? If it's that the module is too overpowered and needs that time sink to be fair, then maybe the module needs looked at, instead of slapping higher reqs on and making it available only to the pilots who are far enough ahead in skills that the force multiplier they're unlocking isn't crucial to them. Making T2 mods more readily available would do more to level the playing field than a skill revamp, and would preserve the distinction and flavor of EvE.
Edt: As an afterthought, I've always been a big fan of the idea of "skeleton crew", either as a skill or just a readily available option, where you can plug your pod into a ship you aren't qualified to operate and run its warp core and maneuvering systems, without any modules or cargo on board. It'd be great for T2 and capital manufacturers to be able to move their goods around and for corps to reorganize without waiting for the one guy with the skills to fly the Providence to get online and move it to the new HQ.
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