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Korg Leaf
Time Bandits.
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Posted - 2010.10.27 14:11:00 -
[571]
Originally by: hjgjgfgfgsj
Originally by: Korg Leaf Edited by: Korg Leaf on 27/10/2010 13:41:44
Originally by: hjgjgfgfgsj Lots of Quoting
Interesting idea, problem is past 15k your guns are going to be doing little damage as most of your damage at that point comes from your drones, which as they are the gallente ones are fairly slow
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hjgjgfgfgsj
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Posted - 2010.10.27 14:53:00 -
[572]
Like I said, Gallente are fine because of drones. No need to fix blasters, unless you want to specifially to fly the Enyo, which is a good little ship regardless.
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Ogogov
Gallente Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2010.10.27 15:48:00 -
[573]
Originally by: hjgjgfgfgsj Like I said, Gallente are fine because of drones. No need to fix blasters, unless you want to specifially to fly the Enyo, which is a good little ship regardless.
No, they aren't because drones aren't as flexible for damage selection as missiles, as useful for large fleet battles and long-range engagements as lasers, projectiles or LOLhybrids, and heavy DPS variants are only useful in the same engagement envelope as autocannons or LOLblasters, and even then are likely to be quickly destroyed in order to negate incoming DPS.
In other words, like the other two Gallente weapons systems, they are mediocre at best.
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Zarnak Wulf
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Posted - 2010.10.27 16:05:00 -
[574]
Outside of the Box Fixes:
- Increase the damage bonus that a magnetic field stabilizer bestows. There's no reason heat sinks, gyros, and MFS all have to be equal. This plays to tank or gank too.
- Reduce the fitting requirements for blasters. A sawed-off shotgun is alot easier to carry then the ghostbuster's plasma pack.
- Remove the penalties for rigs dealing with active armor tanking.
- Increase the chance of critical hits when using blasters. Noone jumped at this idea though so...
After those I would look at tracking before adjusting ranges and such.
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Rickhart
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.10.27 16:25:00 -
[575]
just compared mega pulse to heavy neutraon and the neutron takes up 400 less pg and only uses up like 7 more cpu than mega pulses so yeah i guess a sawed off shotgun is easier to carry
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hjgjgfgfgsj
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Posted - 2010.10.27 16:29:00 -
[576]
Originally by: Ogogov
Originally by: hjgjgfgfgsj Like I said, Gallente are fine because of drones. No need to fix blasters, unless you want to specifially to fly the Enyo, which is a good little ship regardless.
No, they aren't because drones aren't as flexible for damage selection as missiles, as useful for large fleet battles and long-range engagements as lasers, projectiles or LOLhybrids, and heavy DPS variants are only useful in the same engagement envelope as autocannons or LOLblasters, and even then are likely to be quickly destroyed in order to negate incoming DPS.
In other words, like the other two Gallente weapons systems, they are mediocre at best.
Alright, it seems you people want to kee arguing even though you are so wrong it's stupid.
To those of you wanting a blaster fix, I pose this question:
Would you rather fly a cerberus over a deimos/ishtar?
Answer that question.
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Korg Leaf
Time Bandits.
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Posted - 2010.10.27 17:01:00 -
[577]
Originally by: hjgjgfgfgsj
Originally by: Ogogov
Originally by: hjgjgfgfgsj Like I said, Gallente are fine because of drones. No need to fix blasters, unless you want to specifially to fly the Enyo, which is a good little ship regardless.
No, they aren't because drones aren't as flexible for damage selection as missiles, as useful for large fleet battles and long-range engagements as lasers, projectiles or LOLhybrids, and heavy DPS variants are only useful in the same engagement envelope as autocannons or LOLblasters, and even then are likely to be quickly destroyed in order to negate incoming DPS.
In other words, like the other two Gallente weapons systems, they are mediocre at best.
Alright, it seems you people want to kee arguing even though you are so wrong it's stupid.
To those of you wanting a blaster fix, I pose this question:
Would you rather fly a cerberus over a deimos/ishtar?
Answer that question.
I would definitely fly a cerberus over a deimos, and the ishtar is slightly irrelevant to this question as we are talking about hybrids and although ishtars can and do use hybrids they arent used as a primary weapon system.
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hjgjgfgfgsj
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Posted - 2010.10.27 17:08:00 -
[578]
Originally by: Korg Leaf
Originally by: hjgjgfgfgsj
Originally by: Ogogov
Originally by: hjgjgfgfgsj Like I said, Gallente are fine because of drones. No need to fix blasters, unless you want to specifially to fly the Enyo, which is a good little ship regardless.
No, they aren't because drones aren't as flexible for damage selection as missiles, as useful for large fleet battles and long-range engagements as lasers, projectiles or LOLhybrids, and heavy DPS variants are only useful in the same engagement envelope as autocannons or LOLblasters, and even then are likely to be quickly destroyed in order to negate incoming DPS.
In other words, like the other two Gallente weapons systems, they are mediocre at best.
Alright, it seems you people want to kee arguing even though you are so wrong it's stupid.
To those of you wanting a blaster fix, I pose this question:
Would you rather fly a cerberus over a deimos/ishtar?
Answer that question.
I would definitely fly a cerberus over a deimos, and the ishtar is slightly irrelevant to this question as we are talking about hybrids and although ishtars can and do use hybrids they arent used as a primary weapon system.
That's goofy, man.
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Zarnak Wulf
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Posted - 2010.10.27 17:31:00 -
[579]
Originally by: Rickhart just compared mega pulse to heavy neutraon and the neutron takes up 400 less pg and only uses up like 7 more cpu than mega pulses so yeah i guess a sawed off shotgun is easier to carry
Is it? The races in terms of powergrid for each ship class are ranked: Amarr - Minmatar ------------> Gallente - Caldari
That 400 pg is not as significant as it sounds. And of course there's the whole 300% more range for 9% less DPS thing going for pulse lasers.
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Ogogov
Gallente Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2010.10.27 19:53:00 -
[580]
Originally by: hjgjgfgfgsj
Originally by: Ogogov
Originally by: hjgjgfgfgsj Like I said, Gallente are fine because of drones. No need to fix blasters, unless you want to specifially to fly the Enyo, which is a good little ship regardless.
No, they aren't because drones aren't as flexible for damage selection as missiles, as useful for large fleet battles and long-range engagements as lasers, projectiles or LOLhybrids, and heavy DPS variants are only useful in the same engagement envelope as autocannons or LOLblasters, and even then are likely to be quickly destroyed in order to negate incoming DPS.
In other words, like the other two Gallente weapons systems, they are mediocre at best.
Alright, it seems you people want to kee arguing even though you are so wrong it's stupid.
To those of you wanting a blaster fix, I pose this question:
Would you rather fly a cerberus over a deimos/ishtar?
Answer that question.
YOUR STRAWMAN IS BAD AND U SHOULD FEEL BAD.
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Ryan Starwing
Gallente Martyr's Vengence Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2010.10.27 21:03:00 -
[581]
For pvp if I had the skills I would rather fly the cerb over diemost and ishtar.
The Diemost is called that for a reason. They die the most and are not that useful when alive.
Sentry drones are not useable for sniper hac fleets reason you are active aligned out and thus you lose your drones when you warp or die because you chose not to active aligne out. Also Heavies are to slow for close range hac fleets and lose them each time you warp out. So after about 5 minutes of fighting you will be out of yor main damage dealing drones and the op just started; in null sec you cant dock at hostile stations to replenish your drones you have to take it first.
PVE Ishtar all the way for guristas (Though you arnt using hybrids just a civy auto cannon or something like that for aggro)
PS:Gallente Gun Boat problems is two fold poor ship (powergrid for example) and a poor weapon system.
PSS:I dont think I ever seen a hostile eagle(another hybrid boat).
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Doctor Aibolit
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Posted - 2010.10.27 22:38:00 -
[582]
Originally by: hjgjgfgfgsj Yes I said a Deimos can do whatever a vaga can do, but I didn't mean speedwise, obviously. I just meant what I proved, that it can deal lots of damge at 25k with Blasters. Look, I'm right.
Vagabond do the same damage at 25 km with faction ammo. But if Vagabond load long range ammo too (as Deimos in your fit) it will do more than x1.5 damage. Comparing pure turret damage in DPS graph it is about 200dps (Deimos) VS 330dps (Vagabond)
Originally by: hjgjgfgfgsj EDIT # 2 - Look, I'm not saying that Gallente are a perfect pvp race, I'm just saying that IF you REALLY NEED to boost something, it definatly is not blasters.
90% web was nerfed, nano was nerfed (it was important condition for successful blaster usage - FAST APPROACHING and HOLDING target). After many changes blasters were not revised. It is time to adjust blasters to new EVE combat environment. Last projectile boost was awesome. It is time to revise hybrid weapon.
P.S. Take a look on small gangs s in low-sec. Compare percentage of Minmatar/Amarr/Drakes/Gallente.
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The Djego
Minmatar Hellequin Inc.
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Posted - 2010.10.29 13:29:00 -
[583]
Edited by: The Djego on 29/10/2010 13:33:02
Originally by: Rickhart
Originally by: The Djego
Originally by: Rickhart are you saying the mwd's consume more cap when their used with a gallente hull?
No, but there is a serious difference in the need of mwding around with a optimal of 4.5/11km compared to 15/45km in most combat situations...
have you ever actually lost a fight against an amarr because the fight started out at 45k?
Since I know how close the fights against good fitted and flown geddon are if you start at 20km or less, chances are pretty good I never engaged one at 45km.
Mega(NB, 3MFS): 22 Cap/s Gedon(MP, 3HS): 32.3 Cap/s(+10.3) Abaddon(MP, 2HS): 52 Cap/s(+30)
A single MWD Cycle takes 540 Cap and you need 3-4 to cover the common 24-20km distance to a target in a Mega.
Time to break even: 2m 40s to the gedon 54s to the abaddon
This is only 3 bursts and assuming you only got 1 target. In most fights you will have more than just 1 target and you will need the mwd a lot more than just for 3 cycles to get and stay in range so the cap use is a lot higher most of the the time(before you even consider active tanking).
---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank!
Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
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Reddx Panther
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Posted - 2010.10.30 18:48:00 -
[584]
Edited by: Reddx Panther on 30/10/2010 18:54:36 Agree with OP, blasters need some love.
As they are meant to be the middle ground between AC and Lazorz, i wonder why they suffer from both the AC reloading time (10s) AND the laser lack of choice when it comes to damage types.
Blasters/Rails as a middle thing between AC and lasers would make more sense if you had like 5s reload and two different damage type combinations (even if it were more thermal vs kinetic.).
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Jahpahjay
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Posted - 2010.11.01 16:49:00 -
[585]
Not that this thread necessarily needs it, but I feel a bump is in order
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Aron Grys
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Posted - 2010.11.02 03:42:00 -
[586]
So as bad as it sounds, I think hybrids in general need a gimmick. Sure you could play with the base stats of range or tracking or damage, but then you run the risk of just making more of the same when you run into the other turrets. Instead, give them something that is still of direct benefit, but without homogenizing the turrets still further.
Just as an off the wall example: take all the dedicated blaster ships like the Brutix, Deimos, etc. Take away one turret slot, and upgrade the damage bonus from the hull to compensate. Same damage, but now you use a little less cap, have a little easier fitting, and your ship is a little less expensive. You also have a spare utility high, always handy.
But wait! This doesn't address the main problem with blasters, which is putting damage on target!
True, so maybe that extra utility high can be migrated to a low or a mid. Now that blaster ship has the spare fitting and slot for a speed mod or a web. If you really want to go overboard, reduce the cap usage of blasters a little more to offset the requirement of high usage on the MWD and scram+web.
Now you've maintained a unique close range niche for blasters but still boosted them.
Obviously this isn't a panacea, but I think this type of solution is far more promising than simply adding 10% more tracking or damage.
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Doctor Aibolit
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Posted - 2010.11.02 14:17:00 -
[587]
Originally by: Aron Grys ... Obviously this isn't a panacea, but I think this type of solution is far more promising than simply adding 10% more tracking or damage.
"10% more tracking AND damage" - is the simple possible solution. All other solutions look pretty complicated without braking existing game. As for Gallente ships it looks strange: 1) Armed with extremely short range weapon you should approach to enemy as soon as possible but ship bonuses and slot layouts tell you to use armor tank that means mass increasing, speed penalties because of armor rigs. 2) First, there are less low slots comparing Amarr ships and there are active tank bonuses on some ships so it supposed to fit ACTIVE ARMOR TANK (if not let’s switch to 5% resists?) – it significantly consumes CAP. Second, MWD is highly recommended module for extremely short range weapon – it significantly consumes CAP. Is it logical to fit CAP consuming weapon on such ships? 3) Lasers (Pulse) shoot farther than Projectiles (AC). Lasers have slower tracking. Projectiles have faster tracking. Ok it is logical. (Mega Pulse on Abaddon = 0.04219, 800mm on Maelstrom = 0.054). BUT now… Projectiles (AC) shoot father than Blasters. Why Blaster tracking = Projectile (AC) tracking? (800mm on Maelstrom = 0.054, Neutron Cannon on Hyperion = 0.05412). It is logical shorter range - more tracking is needed.
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Tray LiSans
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Posted - 2010.11.02 20:23:00 -
[588]
Originally by: Doctor Aibolit
"10% more tracking AND damage" - is the simple possible solution. All other solutions look pretty complicated without braking existing game. As for Gallente ships it looks strange: 1) Armed with extremely short range weapon you should approach to enemy as soon as possible but ship bonuses and slot layouts tell you to use armor tank that means mass increasing, speed penalties because of armor rigs. 2) First, there are less low slots comparing Amarr ships and there are active tank bonuses on some ships so it supposed to fit ACTIVE ARMOR TANK (if not letĘs switch to 5% resists?) ū it significantly consumes CAP. Second, MWD is highly recommended module for extremely short range weapon ū it significantly consumes CAP. Is it logical to fit CAP consuming weapon on such ships? 3) Lasers (Pulse) shoot farther than Projectiles (AC). Lasers have slower tracking. Projectiles have faster tracking. Ok it is logical. (Mega Pulse on Abaddon = 0.04219, 800mm on Maelstrom = 0.054). BUT nową Projectiles (AC) shoot father than Blasters. Why Blaster tracking = Projectile (AC) tracking? (800mm on Maelstrom = 0.054, Neutron Cannon on Hyperion = 0.05412). It is logical shorter range - more tracking is needed.
I actually agree on most of this. Blaster range causes a number of other problems that are only compounded by being on armor tanked hulls. If you go active armor tank, you have no cap stability at all. Between the required MWD, tackle, and guns, trying to run any sort of realistic active tank is out of the question in many cases. However, running a buffer tank slows you down significantly, making it even harder to put damage on target.
My point is that simply adding some random boost to tracking and damage isn't going to help blasters' primary downfall. Yes blasters could benefit from tracking and damage, but that's just a band-aid fix to help the symptoms of poor damage application, rather than addressing the root cause that is cap-hungry, slow, armor tanked blaster boats. This stew of various problems has all now congealed into a general hybrid failure, and '10% of x variable.' Is not really the cure. The weapon systems and ships need a large overhaul.
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Mortimer Civeri
Gallente Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2010.11.03 00:02:00 -
[589]
Originally by: Tray LiSans I actually agree on most of this. Blaster range causes a number of other problems that are only compounded by being on armor tanked hulls. If you go active armor tank, you have no cap stability at all. Between the required MWD, tackle, and guns, trying to run any sort of realistic active tank is out of the question in many cases. However, running a buffer tank slows you down significantly, making it even harder to put damage on target.
My point is that simply adding some random boost to tracking and damage isn't going to help blasters' primary downfall. Yes blasters could benefit from tracking and damage, but that's just a band-aid fix to help the symptoms of poor damage application, rather than addressing the root cause that is cap-hungry, slow, armor tanked blaster boats. This stew of various problems has all now congealed into a general hybrid failure, and '10% of x variable.' Is not really the cure. The weapon systems and ships need a large overhaul.
^^This.
The Nano nerf, the removal of 90% webs, and don't forget about the speed nerf. Any one of these nerfs would have made blasters difficult (but not imposible) to use effectivly, all together they make blaster boats impractical, except for camping undocks. Blasters and blaster boats need a total overhaul.
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Tashia Stargate
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Posted - 2010.11.03 06:11:00 -
[590]
I think it would be interesting to see hull tanking be made viable on Gallente ships. Make it roughly equal to armor tanking, but without the speed drawbacks.
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Arnold Predator
Special Situations
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Posted - 2010.11.08 13:55:00 -
[591]
Edited by: Arnold Predator on 08/11/2010 13:55:25
Originally by: Doctor Aibolit
Originally by: Aron Grys ... Obviously this isn't a panacea, but I think this type of solution is far more promising than simply adding 10% more tracking or damage.
"10% more tracking AND damage" - is the simple possible solution. All other solutions look pretty complicated without braking existing game. As for Gallente ships it looks strange: 1) Armed with extremely short range weapon you should approach to enemy as soon as possible but ship bonuses and slot layouts tell you to use armor tank that means mass increasing, speed penalties because of armor rigs. 2) First, there are less low slots comparing Amarr ships and there are active tank bonuses on some ships so it supposed to fit ACTIVE ARMOR TANK (if not letĘs switch to 5% resists?) ū it significantly consumes CAP. Second, MWD is highly recommended module for extremely short range weapon ū it significantly consumes CAP. Is it logical to fit CAP consuming weapon on such ships? 3) Lasers (Pulse) shoot farther than Projectiles (AC). Lasers have slower tracking. Projectiles have faster tracking. Ok it is logical. (Mega Pulse on Abaddon = 0.04219, 800mm on Maelstrom = 0.054). BUT nową Projectiles (AC) shoot father than Blasters. Why Blaster tracking = Projectile (AC) tracking? (800mm on Maelstrom = 0.054, Neutron Cannon on Hyperion = 0.05412). It is logical shorter range - more tracking is needed.
I also agree with this. Give tracking a little bit of a boost so its between ACs and PLs. Make the ships a little bit faster and call it good. Also some more cap would be nice on the ships designed to active tank. Either that or change the bonus to +5% ris per skill.
Could some one write up a proposal and start a new thread or get a csm to look at this. I get off of work in 13 mins and don't have the time right now.
I hope we can find a way to get this problem fixed soon.
Does the CSM have any ideas on this topic? I have read your logs and I know you have talked to ccp about it in the past but we need to keep on them about it. Hybrids sucking is affecting 1/2 of the races in the game.
If you want to salve problems with eve please make this a must for ccp to fix in the summer expantion.
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Ogogov
Gallente Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2010.11.08 17:46:00 -
[592]
Originally by: Arnold Predator Edited by: Arnold Predator on 08/11/2010 13:55:25 Does the CSM have any ideas on this topic? I have read your logs and I know you have talked to ccp about it in the past but we need to keep on them about it. Hybrids sucking is affecting 1/2 of the races in the game.
If you want to salve problems with eve please make this a must for ccp to fix in the summer expantion.
The CSM has shown absolutely no interest in fixing hybrids or the Gallente faction, and I've never read any indication that any of them have even paid attention to these threads.
If you notice, it wasn't even listed on the crowdsource CSM issues to vote on!
In other words, CSM fail Gal/Hybrid users and need to pay attention.
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Spugg Galdon
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Posted - 2010.11.08 19:04:00 -
[593]
CSM have got this issue on their (very long) list of fixes. However prioritisation is low and they suggested an increase in range
Nevermind eh? Maybe someone somewhere in CCP is working on it and has a very good intuitive fix in the secret back store
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Doctor Aibolit
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Posted - 2010.11.09 04:12:00 -
[594]
Edited by: Doctor Aibolit on 09/11/2010 04:12:09 Hybrid guns balance (CSM) Fix blasters (CSM) Hybrid guns balance CSM meeting
Do not waste your time - learn Lasers or Projectiles. It is faster than to wait attention for Hybrids.
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Verdon Teraskun
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Posted - 2010.11.09 05:22:00 -
[595]
Originally by: Doctor Aibolit
[ 17:50:14 ] TeaDaze > Failed 1 for, 8 against You see - learn other weapon
Good thing I have the FOTM pulse lasers now...
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Doctor Aibolit
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Posted - 2010.11.11 04:27:00 -
[596]
Some statistic facts from Top20 http://eve-kill.net/?a=top20 : Top 20 killer ships: there are only 2 Gallente ships (Mega - 3rd place, Myrm - 20th place) Top 20 weapons: there is no blaster and surprise - there is 425 Railgun :) ( fleet VS fleet )
P.S. You see - just learn something else. Something else is better than Hybrids
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JitaPriceChecker2
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Posted - 2010.11.11 12:12:00 -
[597]
Originally by: Doctor Aibolit Some statistic facts from Top20 http://eve-kill.net/?a=top20 : Top 20 killer ships: there are only 2 Gallente ships (Mega - 3rd place, Myrm - 20th place) Top 20 weapons: there is no blaster and surprise - there is 425 Railgun :) ( fleet VS fleet )
P.S. You see - just learn something else. Something else is better than Hybrids
i think megathron is that high becuase of tracking bonus , which somehow fix blaters by its own.
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Lusulpher
Sinister Elite Supremacy.
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Posted - 2010.11.12 11:32:00 -
[598]
Edited by: Lusulpher on 12/11/2010 11:34:19
Originally by: Good Advice I'd say that blasters need to be changed entirely and give something new to the gun field. Currently, Lasers have their niche, Projectiles are getting reworked to allow for some nice damage switching, but blasters work just like lasers, just worse.
Changes to Blasters: Rewrite description to say they are a high damage weapon that has difficulty hitting at anything but close range.
Increase damage by 50% Increase tracking by 300% Reduce optimal to 1 Tweak falloff to slightly less Change +optimal modifiers on ammo to +falloff
Now, blasters do incredible damage at close range, but have difficulty hitting anything and damage decreases with every km of range. It turns blaster ships into close range death dealers that suck for anything past 5km or so. I'm ok with that.
^ This.
Also damps don't have a residual effect like ECM jam/neutralizing entire cap does. An Arazu can't cycle through an entire fleet with much more achieved than losing cloak ability and aggressing all the deployed drones. Our dronebays are not the best at refilling our lost flights from roaming/long-range combat...And then our guns don't track, or beat high dps comparisons for long/short range weapons?!
Boost Gallente.
Gallente victor.
Creative Customer Person 7 |
Failgun Owner
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Posted - 2010.11.13 03:29:00 -
[599]
Ok. We have a chance to start discussion at Public CSM roundtable, november 21st 19:00
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Zelot Blueice
XTC Cartel
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Posted - 2010.11.13 06:23:00 -
[600]
For sure, although Xahara, you have to consider that Gallente ships are truly made for getting close via MWD's. Look at that Adrestia and its bonuses. ____________________________________________ POS Management Proposal |
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