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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
ham'n'pickle
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Posted - 2009.10.30 20:09:00 -
[271]
Originally by: CCP Wrangler I am sorry if my original post was unclear on this subject, the account was hacked by an ISK seller but I did not intend to insinuate that it was hacked because the account owner was purchasing ISK. There are many ways to get hacked, of course you may be using a weak password or you may use the login credentials for EVE on a third party website and so on. You can also be the victim of a keylogger.
Ah, sorry, we all should have used our crystal balls to figure out that someone who did NOT buy ISK got hacked by ISK sellers then, despite of the absolute lack of evidence.
"Hey guys we have someone who's transaction log don't show anything suspicious here, it's gotta be an ISK seller who hacked him!"
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Speaker4 theDead
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Posted - 2009.10.30 20:14:00 -
[272]
You have to wonder how CCP knew it was an ISK seller so quickly. Did they already know this person, but still allowed him to log into this game? That has to be the fastest reaction in the history of EVE. One wonders why no one else can get that kind of service.....
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ham'n'pickle
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Posted - 2009.10.30 20:24:00 -
[273]
Edited by: ham''n''pickle on 30/10/2009 20:24:41 Two stories of admin intervention of the gameplay will look supercool on wikipedia and make me totally proud to be part of it.
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Darkdood
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Posted - 2009.10.30 21:40:00 -
[274]
Originally by: Speaker4 theDead You have to wonder how CCP knew it was an ISK seller so quickly. Did they already know this person, but still allowed him to log into this game? That has to be the fastest reaction in the history of EVE. One wonders why no one else can get that kind of service.....
As far as the speed of service its simple. Breaking that region doesn't effect JUST CVA. Unlike any other area of 0.0 hundreds of people go there to rat mine etc. So with more people being effected of course its going to be faster. I'd be ashamed of CCP if it wasn't the case. Who wants to listen to 2,000 dumb-asses whine on the mesg boards about ccp not fixing it. CCP did the right thing.
As far as how they knew? Its easy. The guy the owned that account logged in from a very small number of IP sets for a very long time. Say 2 different sets that both trace to the same country in EU. Then suddenly someone logs in from a China IP twice in a 3 hour period and all his crap/ISK is gone and the alliance is disbanded etc etc.
So either its an elaborate hoax to stir up trouble by bouncing off a Chinese proxy server or its a hack. Hoax's have to be pre planed. These is no motive. CVA or that individual doesn't gain anyhting by creating the hoax. The only other conclusion is its a hack. If you think CCP doesn't log stuff like IP's your smoking crack. That is inet security 101.
The idea that you can screw up and then feign a hack is foolish. CCP would have to be so incompetent not to see it in there logs that they would be incapable of making the game in the first place.
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Ukucia
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.10.30 21:47:00 -
[275]
Originally by: Speaker4 theDead You have to wonder how CCP knew it was an ISK seller so quickly.
Well, I don't know the details of this particular attack, but it could be very easy to find out.
Option 1) Normal user logs in from IP in country A during time period B. He logs off at the end of time period B. 4 hours later, ISK seller logs in from country C. It takes 6 hours to travel between A and C. Not the same person.
Option 2) The ISK and assets would have been transferred to another character for 'disposal'. Said character could have already been in CCP's sights, but they were working on connecting that account to others so that their ban would be more effective.
Option 2a) Similar to 2, but CCP wasn't watching them. But now that they take a close look at the character, they figure out he's an ISK seller from his location, CC#, or in-game patterns.
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ham'n'pickle
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Posted - 2009.10.30 21:48:00 -
[276]
Edited by: ham''n''pickle on 30/10/2009 21:47:51 Perhaps we should make one topic for people who know what an IP shows and what it doesn't show, and one for people who don't have a clue.
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Ukucia
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.10.30 21:59:00 -
[277]
Edited by: Ukucia on 30/10/2009 22:04:48 Edited by: Ukucia on 30/10/2009 22:03:05
Originally by: Burnharder Can someone point me towards a "clicking forum link" post, dev blog, whatever, so I can see how clicking on an external link can compromise my PC and lead to my password being taken? I'm not being funny or anything. I run 7, not as Administrator and always keep patched and up to date. I just don't understand how this can happen!
When you install an application you trust, say Adobe Acrobat you obtained from Adobe, they will often ask for administrative permissions. Some of them will install a small "helper" application that lives in your system tray. The point of that little program is to make their big program appear to load faster, and sometimes to download updates.
That little program runs as administrator.
Sometimes, people find security flaws in programs, say Adobe Acrobat. By hand-creating a special file, you can exploit this flaw so that Acrobat runs your code instead of opening the corrupt document. Once Acrobat runs your code, it can do anything on your system that Acrobat has permission to do. And as I mentioned above, it is running as administrator.
This is one example, and there have been several corrupt PDF exploits on Adobe. More dangerous have been some exploits against Flash, where a specially-crafted flash movie would download and install malware without any prompting. Which means you go to a web page that has flash-based ads on rotation, and you find yourself with a keylogger. WoW has been hit by 2 or 3 of these, where the 'hackers' simply bought ad space on trusted WoW-related web sites. To put it in an EvE context, it would be as if they bought ad space on eve-central and put up their special movie. So now you're infected without clicking a strange link, or doing anything that appears to be risky.
The only way to be absolutely safe is to unplug your computer from the wall. Since it's not very useful at that point, the best you can do is make it harder to break into. Use a big-name anti-virus and keep it up-to-date. Don't blindly click 'accept'. Don't use Internet Explorer.
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Ukucia
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.10.30 22:07:00 -
[278]
Originally by: ham'n'pickle Edited by: ham''n''pickle on 30/10/2009 21:47:51 Perhaps we should make one topic for people who know what an IP shows and what it doesn't show, and one for people who don't have a clue.
Perhaps we should have a topic for all the folks who hate CVA and insist there must be a cover up because CCP hasn't publicly released every single detail of their investigation?
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ham'n'pickle
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Posted - 2009.10.30 22:12:00 -
[279]
Originally by: Ukucia
Originally by: ham'n'pickle Edited by: ham''n''pickle on 30/10/2009 21:47:51 Perhaps we should make one topic for people who know what an IP shows and what it doesn't show, and one for people who don't have a clue.
Perhaps we should have a topic for all the folks who hate CVA and insist there must be a cover up because CCP hasn't publicly released every single detail of their investigation?
What? Want me to have a go at your "That little program runs as administrator."-posting as well? We can make this personal if you want.
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Shirley Serious
Amarr The Khanid Sisters of Athra
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Posted - 2009.10.30 22:30:00 -
[280]
Originally by: ham'n'pickle
Two stories of admin intervention of the gameplay will look supercool on wikipedia and make me totally proud to be part of it.
When did out-of-game happenings become gameplay?
Yes. Yes, I am. |
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Ukucia
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.10.30 23:00:00 -
[281]
Edited by: Ukucia on 30/10/2009 23:00:48
Originally by: ham'n'pickle
Originally by: Ukucia
Originally by: ham'n'pickle Edited by: ham''n''pickle on 30/10/2009 21:47:51 Perhaps we should make one topic for people who know what an IP shows and what it doesn't show, and one for people who don't have a clue.
Perhaps we should have a topic for all the folks who hate CVA and insist there must be a cover up because CCP hasn't publicly released every single detail of their investigation?
What? Want me to have a go at your "That little program runs as administrator."-posting as well? We can make this personal if you want.
That depends. Just what thing do you think IP doesn't show that someone has referred to in this thread?
'Cause if you're just a whiny amateur, you're not interesting at all.
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AmarrettoDiAmarr
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Posted - 2009.10.31 00:38:00 -
[282]
Originally by: Blane Xero You cannot disband a ****ing country.
Been to Yugoslavia or the USSR recently?
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KaarBaak
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2009.10.31 00:52:00 -
[283]
Originally by: Darkdood
As far as the speed of service its simple. Breaking that region doesn't effect JUST CVA. Unlike any other area of 0.0 hundreds of people go there to rat mine etc. So with more people being effected of course its going to be faster. I'd be ashamed of CCP if it wasn't the case. Who wants to listen to 2,000 dumb-asses whine on the mesg boards about ccp not fixing it. CCP did the right thing.
CVA = Too big to fail?
KB KB
Beware the beast Man, for he is the Devil's pawn. Alone among God's primates, he kills for sport or lust or greed. Yea, he will murder his brother to possess his brother's land. |
Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2009.10.31 01:01:00 -
[284]
Originally by: KaarBaak
Originally by: Darkdood As far as the speed of service its simple. Breaking that region doesn't effect JUST CVA. Unlike any other area of 0.0 hundreds of people go there to rat mine etc. So with more people being effected of course its going to be faster. I'd be ashamed of CCP if it wasn't the case. Who wants to listen to 2,000 dumb-asses whine on the mesg boards about ccp not fixing it. CCP did the right thing.
CVA = Too big to fail?
I would hope that in the same situation even the goons would get sov restored quickly. A single person can wait out the petition queue but when it effects many thousands of players in one fell swoop then ccp would be negligent to just let it wait until the gm's got around to it with the normal first come first served process.
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Jojo Jackson
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Posted - 2009.10.31 01:10:00 -
[285]
Originally by: KaarBaak
Originally by: Darkdood
As far as the speed of service its simple. Breaking that region doesn't effect JUST CVA. Unlike any other area of 0.0 hundreds of people go there to rat mine etc. So with more people being effected of course its going to be faster. I'd be ashamed of CCP if it wasn't the case. Who wants to listen to 2,000 dumb-asses whine on the mesg boards about ccp not fixing it. CCP did the right thing.
CVA = Too big to fail?
KB
Hmm, no. If it is a slow proces (ak real ingame war where CVA is attacked by one or more hostil allys) people might have the time to "prepare". Providence has a very fast intel through several channels and any hostil fleet will be reported fast enough to do somethink (beeing just to log out). Most inhabitants would be fine with such a hostil-takeover. They would not love it for sure, but they could undersand what happens.
If there would be some internal problems I'm sure it wouldn't be "internal" for very long too. So the guests would notice it and might react too. One of the side effects of this friendly behavior is, that it's much harder to keep secrets realy secret ;).
Problem at providence is just, if somethink big happens without warning time ... as this simply never happens in providence. Even if you assamble a big hostil (somethink realy dangures I meen) fleet 30 jumps away providence knows it within minutes.
So a disband without warning == not posible and leading to big complaing attacks ;).
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Mr Epeen
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Posted - 2009.10.31 01:41:00 -
[286]
Originally by: Ranger 1
This is a "first time" situation, in that it seems to be the first time an isk seller/hacker has gone beyond taking assets in this manner. We'll have to see if more of this type of activity takes place. Hopefully its not the start of a trend.
I beg to differ here.
If you have been checking the character forum lately, you would have noticed plenty (before they are quickly deleted) of posts where people, sometime 3 or 4 are all paying for the same stolen (hacked) chars.
So the character gets hacked, all it's assets converted to ISK and then sold to as many people as will pay before someone posts a thread on it. The hackers are not worried about getting caught at all it seems.
The same applies with this situation. Someone hacked the acct, apparently (so far as I have read) then liquidated the assets. And for fun, I guess, realizing that the char couldn't very well be sold, had a little fun with it by shutting down CVA.
There is a big problem here folks and it's not tinfoil hat stuff.
It's just good old fashioned 'asshat with too much time on his hands' haxors.
CCP has to cover this up, or at least do their best to minimize it, as it will have a profound effect on consumer trust once they realize how prevalent it is. And how easily there accts are being hacked, with no solution to be seen at this time.
I feel for company that has to deal with this invasion, but I feel more for the people who have been paying for an acct for years suddenly losing everything. Sure they get some ISK back, but how about the Guardian Vexor or T2 BPOs they were so proud of owning. Gone. It would make me want to quit. That's for sure.
Get this fixed CCP, Pronto.
And show us that you are working on it. Give us back our confidence in you.
Mr Epeen
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Zemlin
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Posted - 2009.10.31 02:36:00 -
[287]
Isk sellers? can anybody say scapegoat? I mean they are bad and all but why would they care enough to disband an alliance, I smell a red alliance all over this one.
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Gunsnroses
Hmmzor.
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Posted - 2009.10.31 02:46:00 -
[288]
I lawled till i cried
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Dr Karsun
Gallente HUSARIA Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2009.10.31 08:23:00 -
[289]
I guess, even if somebody lost t2 bpos, CCP would be able to give them back to someone, that shouldn't be a problem, right, it's not hard to track down asset flow in a game...
And well, I can just be happy that I haven't got power nor a lot of isk, so I'm not a good account to hack :)
Making custom signatures and banners - check my in-game bio for details!
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Kumq uat
Gallente Guiding Hand Social Club Dystopia Alliance
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Posted - 2009.10.31 09:11:00 -
[290]
Regardless if it were isk sellers or not hacking someones account, stealing said assets, and closing down the alliance is still against game rules. The Haargoth prescident does not apply as Haargoth was in full control of his account and was the one who disbanded the alliance formerly known as BoB. I would say I am far from a CVA apologist considering we are KOS to them and all and ripped off their region pets for quite a bit of stuff including a Nyx, but CCP made the right call here.
www.eve-pirate.com original author
Please resize your sig to a maximum of 400 x 120 and a file size no greater than 24000 bytes - Mitnal |
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Blane Xero
Amarr The Firestorm Cartel
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Posted - 2009.10.31 11:01:00 -
[291]
Originally by: Zemlin Isk sellers? can anybody say scapegoat? I mean they are bad and all but why would they care enough to disband an alliance, I smell a red alliance all over this one.
What the hell has Red Alliance got to do with anything? _____________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008
Originally by: CCP Fallout :facepalm:
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Talon Aidian
Interstella Fleet
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Posted - 2009.10.31 14:03:00 -
[292]
Edited by: Talon Aidian on 31/10/2009 14:03:31
Originally by: Zemlin Isk sellers? can anybody say scapegoat? I mean they are bad and all but why would they care enough to disband an alliance, I smell a red alliance all over this one.
ISK Sellers are, by definition, criminals and evil people, so I don't see the term scapegoat even applicable, -especially- if they actually did what they are accused of doing.
And, yes, believe it or not, a criminal will (gasp) actually do additional things to hurt their target out of spite, -ESPECIALLY- hackers. This is all they can do with their lives, so you better bet that the more harm they can cause, the better they like it.
I find it hard to believe you have been on the web for any length of time and not come to understand hackers.
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Domoso
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Posted - 2009.10.31 17:27:00 -
[293]
Edited by: Domoso on 31/10/2009 17:31:55
Originally by: Talon Aidian Edited by: Talon Aidian on 31/10/2009 14:03:31
Originally by: Zemlin Isk sellers? can anybody say scapegoat? I mean they are bad and all but why would they care enough to disband an alliance, I smell a red alliance all over this one.
ISK Sellers are, by definition, criminals and evil people, so I don't see the term scapegoat even applicable, -especially- if they actually did what they are accused of doing.
And, yes, believe it or not, a criminal will (gasp) actually do additional things to hurt their target out of spite, -ESPECIALLY- hackers. This is all they can do with their lives, so you better bet that the more harm they can cause, the better they like it.
I find it hard to believe you have been on the web for any length of time and not come to understand hackers.
Criminal? Under what law(s)? Evil.....well sure if someone doing something you don't agree with makes them "evil". Apparently they're providing a service that people are willing to pay for. That's not to say that all isk sellers are "good" or "evil". Some are, of course, more legitimate than others. CCP would be wise to legitimize and control isk selling rather than fighting the inevitable. In this way, they could profit from it, increase their work staff, improve the game more often and with greater care toward details adding an amount of finesse that is sorely lacking.
At present CCP only provides a means to turn money into isk, not the other way around. It's turning isk into money that the isk sellers are after. By providing a two way solution CCP would be privy to many more transactions giving them a greater ability to detect proactively illegitimate behaviors. As is now, they are purely reactionary with the exception of Unholy Rage. Garnering a fee per transaction would of course benefit CCP and ultimately the players.
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Dr Karsun
Gallente HUSARIA Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2009.10.31 19:26:00 -
[294]
Originally by: Domoso
Criminal? Under what law(s)?
Well, actually the crime ISK sellers commit is pretty severe. And it's international criminal law that they are breaking, to be more understandable what they are doing is the same as if they broke into your mail box (yes, that is illegal too).
Every country has it's own laws, not sure how it works in iceland but in Poland we have our bill from 5.VII.2002 - article 5 clearly states
" Jeżeli umowa pomiędzy usługodawcą i usługobiorcą nie stanowi inaczej, indywidualne upoważnienie dostępu do danej usługi chronionej uzyskuje osoba, kt=ra zapłaciła ustalone przez usługodawcę wynagrodzenie za usługę lub zobowiązała się do zapłaty takiego wynagrodzenia w określonym terminie."
this means that you cannot share or use an eve-online account unless the EULA states differently. It also states that using an account by someone else is breaking the law. And this is only one bill.
In the general Criminal Code (Kodeks Karny) there are internet crimes mentioned, you have a dozen more bills about internet criminal offenses. Iceland surely has the same.
And yeah, the international internet law, etc.
And believe me, hacking an account is a serious crime, you can easily get 3 years in prison in Poland for that, I guess the country holding the eve servers probably has similar bills.
Thank you for your attention.
Making custom signatures and banners - check my in-game bio for details!
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Aquillar
Minmatar Intergalactic Combined Technologies The Chamber of Commerce
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Posted - 2009.10.31 19:58:00 -
[295]
I bet we won't see something like this happen again for a long time. CCP is probably locking down their security policy regarding password resets/email address changes. If this is social engineering, they're the only ones that will know it and they'll never tell. Seems to be what happened to my account. If I'm going to keep playing this game they better be changing their ways.
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KaarBaak
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2009.11.01 01:47:00 -
[296]
Selling isk is not a crime in ANY country (unless you count that silly thing the Chinese tried a couple months back) my Polish friend.
Sure, hacking accounts can be a crime, but the posting above stated that 'isk sellers are by definition criminals."
Buying and selling isk is not a crime.
KB
Beware the beast Man, for he is the Devil's pawn. Alone among God's primates, he kills for sport or lust or greed. Yea, he will murder his brother to possess his brother's land. |
Jojo Jackson
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Posted - 2009.11.01 04:30:00 -
[297]
Edited by: Jojo Jackson on 01/11/2009 04:32:52
Originally by: KaarBaak Selling isk is not a crime in ANY country
That's not true and not false :)
No country will explicid have any law about EvE and ISK, that's true. BUT there are many countrys, which have laws about breaking EULAs (as long as they stay within local laws) and about ownership. Since the pseudo-game "Second World" many countrys reconsider there laws about virtual stuff as suddenly virtual money becomes real money and visaversa.
Originally by: KaarBaak Buying and selling isk is not a crime.
This is for sure false. Just take selling drugs or smugled stuff. Sometimes just selling is a crime, sometimes just buying, sometimes even both. Depending on the land.
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MaxxOmega
Caldari Wrong Indeed
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Posted - 2009.11.01 05:50:00 -
[298]
Quote: Beware the beast Man, for he is the Devil's pawn. Alone among God's primates, he kills for sport or lust or greed. Yea, he will murder his brother to possess his brother's land.
Yea, he will murder his brother to possess his brother's Navy Raven, or ISK...
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Shevar
Minmatar Target Practice incorporated
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Posted - 2009.11.01 22:52:00 -
[299]
Originally by: CCP Wrangler After receiving a petition from CVA regarding their alliance being disbanded we launched an investigation as per our policy. Our experience in similar situations has often been that accounts were not hacked but, rather, the alliances were disbanded due to failed payment or enemy infiltration. In this case, however, we discovered that the account of the alliance executor was hacked by ISK sellers.
CCP needs you to help us fight RMT by not buying ISK! It may seem like a minor thing to do, all things considered, but keep in mind that these people steal credit cards and hack accounts to get ISK to sell. By choosing to purchase their ISK you are creating a demand for their services and the illegal activities that support them.
Well as previous cases have shown it's utterly stupid to allow a single character to disband a whole alliance. The ability to require more then 1 person consenting to certain actions would be rather helpful. --- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs |
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