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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Breaker77
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.11.25 06:01:00 -
[361]
Since no one answered my previous question, I'll ask it again
If someone has an outstanding loan of several billion ISK and they transfer the depositor character to a new account the API is useless. How do plan on accounting for that??
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Mme Pinkerton
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.11.25 08:12:00 -
[362]
Edited by: Mme Pinkerton on 25/11/2009 08:14:14
Originally by: Drab Cane They are giving their personal time to get EBank back on its feet
There is your misunderstanding - in my perception the vast majority of people posting in this thread (who are not EBANK employees) don't want EBANK put back on its feet, but rather liquidated and shut down.
If you take away all the fancy arguments, there's the key conflict between customers and management:
management has committed itself to restoring EBANK no matter what, while customers would rather see some cash in their wallet than have the EBANK fail train going into the next round of catastrophes.
EBANK is in a state of insolvency and it has evidently lost the trust required for a successful banking operation (atm it seems that just about every 3rd party application enjoys more trust than EBANK).
Any reasonable person would shut down this time- and ISK-sink asap; only the EBANK BoD does obviously not belong to the set of reasonable persons.
I get the impression that EBANK's business model is driven by the BoD's desire for retribution against those people writing posts like this one (you know those who have never achieved anything on their own - or were just not stupid enough to sink vast amounts of time into a failing institution - and now assume the right to utter reasonable criticism concerning EBANK).
And while the pursue of retribution might involve the plan to restore access for some customers later on (so they can claim to have successfully rescued the bank), it is hard to see how this leads to a path of actions that are generally in the customers' best interest.
But then, as I have quoted Marx in a previous post, "club-law is also law" - at this point the discussion revolves mainly about semantics: is EBANK staff considered to be thieves, scammers, extortioners or heroes... The balance of power is clear enough.
PS: leaving the interests of customers' completely aside, I still think it would be better for MD as a whole to see EBANK go down. IMO EBANK staff taking the money and running away would have a much healthier effects on the "secondary" market than EBANK reopening its doors to draw the next round of customers into its Ponzi-scheme. Increased regulation seldom works against perverse incentives (but just leads to circumvention of said regulation) - and I don't see how the incentives for EBANK staff (or the staff of any other bank in EVE) to become thieves have changed in any way. IPOs, bonds, banks and the like only make sense for as long as you can make more money (for you!) using lent capital than using only your own assets. The only way for Ray to make more money/time running EBANK than minding his own business is using EBANK to scam customers out of their ISK - and it's the same with any other decent-sized banking institution imaginable in EVE.
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Angus McSpork
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Posted - 2009.11.25 08:47:00 -
[363]
Edited by: Angus McSpork on 25/11/2009 08:52:48 Edited by: Angus McSpork on 25/11/2009 08:52:22
Originally by: Ray McCormack
Originally by: Kapila Parthalan Why does EBANK need information on personal standings?
Think of it as us creating a "known accomplices" list.
Isn't this just way, WAY outside of the charter, scope and intent of a bank?
After all, the only thing more powerful than ISK in this game is information. Information you're trying to scam, I mean extort, I mean ask, I mean demand for from 9000 account holders. (its been a long couple of threads but I'm sure I read an ebank rep claim they had 9000 accounts)
And for what proclaimed purpose? To make sure that 4 ex-BoD members aren't trying to bilk more ISK out than they already have and to supposedly try to get ISK back from the *36* people you listed as defaulted on loans--40 people in total if I counted right. Now assume that each of them had 2 accounts FULL of alts that you could somehow track down with the limited API--that would be 6 characters per scammer/deadbeat so now we're talking 240 characters. Let's further assume that for some reason EVERY alt/main of said scammers/deadbeats had an account with ebank. That would make 240/9000 bank accounts max. That would mean 2.6% of account holders under very unlikely circumstances are who you're supposedly after.
All that has to be given up to protect from such baddies is the the trading schemes, business venture information, wallet balance, skill sets, asset lists, locations and standings lists of the other 97.4% of ebank customers.
Seriously, nobody has been able to trust your bank with, you know, ISK (you know, the ONE thing that IS in the charter, scope and intent of a bank). So why in the world should anyone trust you with information that can be stolen even easier* than ISK yet much more damaging if/when it is stolen?
*At least ISK being stolen should leave some trail at any half-assed financial institution ingame. API keys can simply be copied with no trace at all.
Edit: Actually, looking at the original list of loan defaulters there are a few duplicates so it is actually less than 2.6% of account holders being offered as the 'reason' for this latest scam.
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LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
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Posted - 2009.11.25 09:00:00 -
[364]
Originally by: Mme Pinkerton
If you take away all the fancy arguments, there's the key conflict between customers and management:
management has committed itself to restoring EBANK no matter what, while customers would rather see some cash in their wallet than have the EBANK fail train going into the next round of catastrophes.
Here's the thing:
If customers at large go ahead and take up the offer to liquidate their accounts at 20%, then EBANK will end up effectively liquidated.
If everybody goes ahead with liquidating the accounts, the ISK withdrawn vs. the NAV of EBANK ought to end up even by a 10% margin or so.
That could force EBANK to liquidate. But EBANK wants to honor the deposits of the people who wants 100% back. Everybody else is welcome to take up the offer of liquidation.
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Bitter Veteran
Blue Republic
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Posted - 2009.11.25 09:34:00 -
[365]
If E-Bank was my dog i would hold it in a bucket of water until it stopped struggling and finally died.
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LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
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Posted - 2009.11.25 09:44:00 -
[366]
Originally by: Bitter Veteran If E-Bank was my dog i would hold it in a bucket of water until it stopped struggling and finally died.
Dear Bitter Veteran,
Thank you for your insightful and positive comment. We appreciate your feedback and will make sure to take it into consideration.
Please do not hesitate to post again.
Best Regards LaVista Vista
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Dasola
Minmatar Equitatus Of Apocalypse Maru Ka'ge
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Posted - 2009.11.25 09:47:00 -
[367]
Edited by: Dasola on 25/11/2009 09:51:42 So far i havent seen any answers to related the api key and its use on ebank, other then mysterious "we want it for something".... As pointed out it really dosent solve ebanks problems since char transfers are allowed.
What i would like to get answers is these: 1. What information on api will be accessed and why 2. What information is stored from that api access 3. Ho has access to that stored information and api keys 4. How is access to those information monitored in order to reveal any misconduct in behalf on bank staff 5. How is api and stored information secured agains outside parties gaining access to it within ebanks systems 6. how can we the customers trust that you dont sell that information to outside
I can understand theyre trying to save ebank. but i think method they have choosen leave much to desire. witholding peoples money, not paying interest, no clear timeline to allow withdrawals, extortion, stealing, etc...
In real world if bank changes its tos and i dont aprove, atleast i get my money back when they cansell my account. Ebank demands api to verify active or the steal it. --- We mine, we grind, we build, we destroy Always recruiting new industrial minded players, ingame contact: Dasola |
Leneerra
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2009.11.25 10:20:00 -
[368]
and how about:
7) what guarantees do we have you will ignore your answers next week and start taking other information.
and to all chiding me for having ultirior motives to hide my alts. At least 2 people within ebank are aware of one of my alts even if they may not have stored the information. I am however very unwilling to trust them with the information that can be gained on him, even with the limited api key. the other one is just to forum post keeping them unrelated to me or my alt.
should it become possible to get char transfers for plex then I might be swapping my main to a new account to get my isk back, but that would possebly require 5 plex (1 to start an account, 2 to swap over and 2 to swap back) the revenue on it would have to be more than the cost.
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Black Omne
Caldari House Of BlackStar Semper-Mortis
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Posted - 2009.11.25 11:33:00 -
[369]
Just a simple question, when withdrawals become available for say, 30% of value, etc, if a bunch of people take advantage of that does that bring the bank closer to being able to pay out 100% for those people that stick with it for the long term? I apologize for my lack of financial knowledge, I can balance my check book and that's about it.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Dark-Rising IT Alliance
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Posted - 2009.11.25 11:38:00 -
[370]
Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 25/11/2009 11:40:20
Quote:
What's a bigger risk for you, providing a small group of people with details about your characters or transferring billions of ISK to an organization that will hold it and pay you more later?
I'd value the knowledge about a jump freigther alt, his location in 0.0, the location of a corp POS a bit more than 2-3B personal wallet savings...
The fact there's people with 0.0 alliances involved with EBANK personnel is not to understimate.
Quote:
I get the impression that EBANK's business model is driven by the BoD's desire for retribution against those people writing posts like this one (you know those who have never achieved anything
That is why in another thread I said imho ATM there's one person with the characteristics to be a new auditor, and now you now who am I thinking about.
- Auditing and consulting
Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Dzil
Caldari Waffle Investment Fund
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Posted - 2009.11.25 13:54:00 -
[371]
Originally by: Ray McCormack
Originally by: Kapila Parthalan I would very much appreciate if you told us what makes you so convinced that this is the best decision. Your arguments so far are unsatisfactory.
The reasons already stated are what have convinced me. If those don't satisfy you then we'll need to agree to disagree, I can't exactly invent reasons to satisfy you and it's not my responsibility to satisfactorily justify each and every bank decision to every single customer.
Perhaps these reasons could be better framed around the priorities of the bank. It's a hard pill to swallow that after freezing accounts for this long and keeping a hard stance on returning accounts to full liquidity, that ebank is now of the position that it is acceptable to default some of its debts as collateral damage in a witch hunt.
Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m |
SetrakDark
Caldari DarkCorp Technology and Finance
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Posted - 2009.11.25 13:58:00 -
[372]
Originally by: LaVista Vista
Originally by: Bitter Veteran If E-Bank was my dog i would hold it in a bucket of water until it stopped struggling and finally died.
Dear Bitter Veteran,
Thank you for your insightful and positive comment. We appreciate your feedback and will make sure to take it into consideration.
Please do not hesitate to post again.
Best Regards LaVista Vista
HAHA! Awesome! That's how it's done. I lold.
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TornSoul
BIG Libertas Fidelitas
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Posted - 2009.11.25 14:02:00 -
[373]
It's looking more and more like a case of burning down the house in order to kill the c.ockroaches.
Killing the c.ockroaches I can agree with - But there are alternatives to burning down the house.
Current management refuses to acknowledge this unfortunatly.
I'm thus forced to change my, up until now supportive, opinion on current management.
Originally by: TornSoul - Retroactively demanding API keys, simply isn't acceptable.
*c.ockroaches is a banned word... sigh... /me shakes head BIG Lottery |
Dasola
Minmatar Equitatus Of Apocalypse Maru Ka'ge
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Posted - 2009.11.25 14:13:00 -
[374]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 25/11/2009 11:40:20
Quote:
What's a bigger risk for you, providing a small group of people with details about your characters or transferring billions of ISK to an organization that will hold it and pay you more later?
I'd value the knowledge about a jump freigther alt, his location in 0.0, the location of a corp POS a bit more than 2-3B personal wallet savings...
The fact there's people with 0.0 alliances involved with EBANK personnel is not to understimate.
Indeed, temptetion to miscondict will rice it head when someone sees opportunity to gain extra armstrenght to their allaince in war. What better way to use ebanks intelligence database then strike your enemy down in any ways bossible. Take down pos there, jump freightere here, etc....
And to my understanding ebank has not asked can they keep that money for time being to release it later in full. They just made decision without consulting anyone, leading to everyones counts being freezed over for undetermined lenght of time. To me that sounds like fraud at least.
And top of that they plan to steal your money unless you obey their terms. How about real world terms: if bank cant cover deposits it goes bankcropt and closes aftersold all assets and payd back to investors what it could. Right now theyre playing other peoples money and without permission to do so. Just becose you have seat in banks BoD, dosent give you right to steal and blackmail your investors.
One thing that troubles me is that ebank plans to keep all isk with relates to non active accounts. Its not their money to keep. If im away for year or two and ebank still operates i have full right to expect my money to be there still. Not be scammed by ho ever has had decicion rights in banks BoD at time.
And if they find banned accounts related to for example rmt? What happens to that isk if gm has not reversed? Its criminal profits witch should be turned over to ccp. Thats how real banks operate.
--- We mine, we grind, we build, we destroy Always recruiting new industrial minded players, ingame contact: Dasola |
Allvan Harl
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Posted - 2009.11.25 14:25:00 -
[375]
Folks, you're whining more than carebears do when they run into pirates and lose their ship and pod. Harden the f*** up people. This is life so deal with it. Stop crying about your API key. Do what you have to do in order to get your money back.
Ray and gang, thanks for working at getting eBank up and running again. If an API key is all you need, congrats, you got it. Use it well to reduce your risk of being scammed.
You should look into a reward program for people who decide to sit this out and leave their money in the bank when the bank needed them the most.
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Liberty Eternal
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Posted - 2009.11.25 14:50:00 -
[376]
It is clear that Ebank are following a strategy that may be called "political realism" rather than "market capitalism". In the context of EVE this may well be the best way. However, it is a sad failure of the free market methods most of us would want to see implemented.
Having said that, it is not a total failure. Putting capitalist concepts to one side, the methods and ethics that Ebank are currently following are more-or-less exactly right for the situation. Ebank is engaging in actions that through history could largely be classified as "State building".
Don't run too fast to call this a scam. Ray is creating a solid central bank - or at least he will emerge with one if he continues his current policy. Granted, he is doing it with money expropriated without voluntary consent, and with a mandate that is obscure at best - but such is the nature of realpolitik.
Such State-building actions are often necessary before capitalism can establish itself. The cause is worthy, and the Ebank board may well prove to be more intelligent, ruthless and capable than we think. Time will tell.
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cosmoray
Bella Vista Holdings Corp
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Posted - 2009.11.25 14:54:00 -
[377]
Now that EBANK had decided to require API keys to maintain your bank account, I have a question:
HOW DOES EBANK INTEND TO COMMUNICATE THIS TO PEOPLE WHO DO NOT READ MD FORUM?
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Breaker77
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.11.25 14:57:00 -
[378]
Edited by: Breaker77 on 25/11/2009 14:57:49
Originally by: cosmoray HOW DOES EBANK INTEND TO COMMUNICATE THIS TO PEOPLE WHO DO NOT READ MD FORUM?
I believe LVV said they would be sending out e-mails to thouse who had registered them on the EBank forums, however many people that reaches it's hard to say.
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Dzil
Caldari Waffle Investment Fund
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Posted - 2009.11.25 15:08:00 -
[379]
Edited by: Dzil on 25/11/2009 15:08:51
Originally by: cosmoray Now that EBANK had decided to require API keys to maintain your bank account, I have a question:
HOW DOES EBANK INTEND TO COMMUNICATE THIS TO PEOPLE WHO DO NOT READ MD FORUM?
I'm confident the remaining denizens of the internet can find a picture of the middle finger extended without reading MD.
Edit - damn you Cosmo and your spacing schemes...
Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m |
Tesal
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Posted - 2009.11.25 15:09:00 -
[380]
Originally by: Liberty Eternal It is clear that Ebank are following a strategy that may be called "political realism" rather than "market capitalism". In the context of EVE this may well be the best way. However, it is a sad failure of the free market methods most of us would want to see implemented.
Having said that, it is not a total failure. Putting capitalist concepts to one side, the methods and ethics that Ebank are currently following are more-or-less exactly right for the situation. Ebank is engaging in actions that through history could largely be classified as "State building".
Don't run too fast to call this a scam. Ray is creating a solid central bank - or at least he will emerge with one if he continues his current policy. Granted, he is doing it with money expropriated without voluntary consent, and with a mandate that is obscure at best - but such is the nature of realpolitik.
Such State-building actions are often necessary before capitalism can establish itself. The cause is worthy, and the Ebank board may well prove to be more intelligent, ruthless and capable than we think. Time will tell.
Realpolitik?
Your treatise on capitalism and banks is crap. Ron Paul 2012 am I right? Or maybe you were dropped on your head as a child? Maybe both?
EBank is not now, has never been, nor will it ever be, a Central Bank. The Central Bank is CCP Bank. They control the isk supply. It will also never be a State.
never stop posting...with alts. Please do not use inappropriate language in your sig. Zymurgist |
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Leneerra
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2009.11.25 15:18:00 -
[381]
Originally by: Allvan Harl Folks, you're whining more than carebears do when they run into pirates and lose their ship and pod. Harden the f*** up people. This is life so deal with it. Stop crying about your API key. Do what you have to do in order to get your money back.
Ray and gang, thanks for working at getting eBank up and running again. If an API key is all you need, congrats, you got it. Use it well to reduce your risk of being scammed.
You should look into a reward program for people who decide to sit this out and leave their money in the bank when the bank needed them the most.
If you want to compare it to ingame actions then it is more akin to becoming a part of a lv4 corp and then getting podded in your faction (not officer) fitted mission ship by the director of the corp. Then again, something could be said for it being akin to low sec piracy as well. I mean you know there are risks when you give someone else your isk (enter at your own peril), and I guess ebank could be compared to a bunch of..
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Liberty Eternal
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Posted - 2009.11.25 15:19:00 -
[382]
Edited by: Liberty Eternal on 25/11/2009 15:21:51
Originally by: Tesal
Realpolitik?
Your treatise on capitalism and banks is crap. Ron Paul 2012 am I right? Or maybe you were dropped on your head as a child? Maybe both?
EBank is not now, has never been, nor will it ever be, a Central Bank. The Central Bank is CCP Bank. They control the isk supply. It will also never be a State.
No it's pure Karl Marx actually - if you study the history of economic development you will see that waves of expropriation and violence were often necessary prerequisties for the establishment of working economic systems. Those who acquire a monopoly on such force can legitimately be considered to be the pillars of an emergent State. Not too difficult to grasp as concepts.
There is a certain logic in Ebanks actions. From what I can gather of the mind-set of Ray and the Ebank board then if they are not scammers, they will be following a script that is not radically different to the summary I outlined above.
Edit: also your USA-centrism is quite funny - I have no idea who Ron Paul is, and also not every central bank is like the Fed - ie currency and inflation oriented. There is a much wider historical definition for a central bank than this.
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Dzil
Caldari Waffle Investment Fund
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Posted - 2009.11.25 15:32:00 -
[383]
Ron Paul was a candidate for the USA presidential election in 2008. Without derailing ebanks thread (in due time folks, in due time) - a lot of his supporters became overnight political critics because they read something on the internet.
Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m |
Dzil
Caldari Waffle Investment Fund
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Posted - 2009.11.25 15:39:00 -
[384]
Quote: Account Sales * Account Sales will occur through the Account2Player Transfer interface (see the Move Money menu on the EBANK website). This is to avoid additional coding changes. All sales will need to be verified and registered with the Bank, no sales may occur without this verification. A verification fee of 5% will be levied against the sale, and is payable by the seller. Should the buyer wish to refund the fee, that is their decision and the bank cannot be held liable for them breaking this agreement. * This does mean that legitimate A2P transfers will have the same fee levied, unfortunately this fee is non-refundable and our suggestion to you is to wait until the sales fee is no longer applicable and is returned to the standard 0.5%. No discussion will be entered into, do not use this service if you don't want to pay the 5% fee.
Is there a minimum balance?
Will this 5% fee also apply if you are moving balances between your own known characters on the same account, which ebank is requiring you to register?
Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m |
Varo Jan
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.11.25 15:55:00 -
[385]
@ Ray
How much collateral is EBank holding against the possibility of loan defaults? Is that collateral held passively, or are you making use of any such assets to derive income that benefits the bank? Is collateral shown on the balance sheet? If so, where?
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Dasola
Minmatar Equitatus Of Apocalypse Maru Ka'ge
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Posted - 2009.11.25 15:56:00 -
[386]
Originally by: Liberty Eternal Ray is creating a solid central bank - or at least he will emerge with one if he continues his current policy. Granted, he is doing it with money expropriated without voluntary consent, and with a mandate that is obscure at best - but such is the nature of realpolitik.
How could it ever become central bank when no one in their right mind will trust their money on it? After all they have proven that they are willing to hold your money indefinetly and even steal it if you dont meet their requirements. Thats not what banks do.
If real politik would have anything to do with it, ccp (as in closest thing we have for real government) would have moved in allready and closed down entire ebank.
They claim theyre running bank, maybe they should start acting like running a bank instead of biggest scam in eve history.
If theyre really running bank then they would have some idea how long hopefully it takes until they can re-open normal bank functions so people can have their stolen money back. Its not loaned to them since they hijacked it without asking and theyre not promised any compensation on keepeing the money either.
And still no published BoD apikeys so we could confirm that they have no scam alts, goons, ebank loan defaults, etc... --- We mine, we grind, we build, we destroy Always recruiting new industrial minded players, ingame contact: Dasola |
Kalrand
Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.25 15:58:00 -
[387]
Originally by: Dasola And still no published BoD apikeys so we could confirm that they have no scam alts, goons, ebank loan defaults, etc...
Whats wrong with goons?
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KaarBaak
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2009.11.25 16:05:00 -
[388]
How about complete liquidation, purchase 1000+ GTCs and donate them to Child's Play?
KB
Beware the beast Man, for he is the Devil's pawn. Alone among God's primates, he kills for sport or lust or greed. Yea, he will murder his brother to possess his brother's land. |
Dzil
Caldari Waffle Investment Fund
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Posted - 2009.11.25 16:07:00 -
[389]
Originally by: Kalrand
Originally by: Dasola And still no published BoD apikeys so we could confirm that they have no scam alts, goons, ebank loan defaults, etc...
Whats wrong with goons?
I'm not sure why it matters at this point. Suppose you see a goon, old enemy, or someone you have a hidden vendetta against. What are you going to do? Request your money back?
Ebank's position is clear: /finger. Don't forget it.
Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m |
Liberty Eternal
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Posted - 2009.11.25 16:11:00 -
[390]
Edited by: Liberty Eternal on 25/11/2009 16:12:44
Originally by: Dasola See above post
Read through the postings of the Ebank directors, particularly Ray's. They are not following a free-market script, that is clear. It is possible they are scamming of course, but even that has little relevance to their inevitable outcome, which is that of significant geopolitical entity.
From reading the Ebank director's posts, it seems clear to me that their vision is similar to the vision of those who build States and that is why I suggest that they are engaging in an exercise that is similar to State-building. Now, the precise nature of the State or States in Eve is difficult to determine, but I am willing to bet that Ebank will be a part of one soon enough.
Edit: edited down for size
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