Professional Market Hub Undock Camper: Elite


Hm, paying CONCORD money to end a war... and if you have more allies you can end it cheaper? So someone adds five random undock camping allies and in two weeks they can end the war for free? Nice...

I agree we are not that far.

However, I do not think that being able to (relatively affordably) summon allies is in any way protectionism. In fact, I showed how to do a decshield even with the "new" new method.

Its about trillions versus billions.

As to the other stuff on quality etc. We agree.

But I think you make a false assumption, specially for a sandbox, which is that the game mechanics should be in the service of the best players.

Then it isn't a sandbox. It is a very hard game that only an elite few can play. It will become very boring and very unpopulated very quickly.

Let the top, elite, mercs, stand out because of word of mouth, actual delivery of services (which is very easy to verify now) etc. The crappy mercs will be crappy, and the good one will be good.

Let me give you another example: Red Frog/Black Frog haulers and freighters.

They charge way over the usual contract rate in the public contract pool for couriers. Yet nearly any industrialist and trader that doesn't self haul, or who needs extra hauling, goes to them at their inflated prices. Why?

Because they deliver a high quality, no bullshit, 99% successful service, even in the depths of war null, and in pirate infected low sec.

Yet, they have zero advantage in terms of the mechanic. They still have to put cynos up. They still have to jump gates, aligning the slowbelisks etc.

So mercs is the same thing.

A mechanic that affects mercs should be available to both crappy wannabes, and the most respected mercs. Or it breaks the sandbox.

But I think you make a false assumption, specially for a sandbox, which is that the game mechanics should be in the service of the best players.

....

Let me give you another example: Red Frog/Black Frog haulers and freighters.

They charge way over the usual contract rate in the public contract pool for couriers. Yet nearly any industrialist and trader that doesn't self haul, or who needs extra hauling, goes to them at their inflated prices. Why?

Because they deliver a high quality, no bullshit, 99% successful service, even in the depths of war null, and in pirate infected low sec.

Yet, they have zero advantage in terms of the mechanic. They still have to put cynos up. They still have to jump gates, aligning the slowbelisks etc.

So mercs is the same thing.

A mechanic that affects mercs should be available to both crappy wannabes, and the most respected mercs. Or it breaks the sandbox.

I agree. I think you may have misunderstood me earlier when I said something along the lines of "mercs need to offer more than the average uncoordinated random stranger", by which I meant people who pile in as allies in a wardec in order to get targets. These people probably won't take on difficult or necessary jobs like taking out a POS in enemy territory or disrupting supply lines in null. You may not even be able to trust them to come to your help when jumped on. The advantage of having them (in the Jade vs Goons example) is that it makes it harder for the enemy to come into Empire space to harass defenders without losses - but they are not really competition for good mercenaries, who would be able to offer a lot more than that.

Eve War Concept:
Rule #1: Non consentual war requires a payment from the party who has the choice (Aggressor)
Rule #2: Non consentual war has no cost for the party who does not have a choice (Defender)
Rule #3: Consentual war has no cost for the aggressor or the defender.

If we add the new rule to it:

Rule #4: Third side are allowed to join a war without cost.

this effectivly disables rule #1 since the third side, having a choice and all, still does not have to pay for the war.
Instead of declaring war, you look what wars your opponent has and simply join it (and pay the Defender to make it mutual for a fraction of the cost of starting your own)

Yea, it is that easy. You are supposed to pay for wars you choose to fight and the ally system was circumventing that fact.
Third side joining should be still covered by Rule #1, you have to pay, perhaps with a 20% discount because otherwise you do not need the system at all.

Sure there is. 20sp put into mining skills that's what.

I love it how pewpewbrears think all their t2 stuff came from thin air...

They don't, they either made it using their alts or bought it from the market.

An ecosystem needs prey and predator. One without the other destroys the ecosystem.

There seems to be enough prey to sustain the predators thus far. If you're not willing to fight back, you can either pay someone else to do it or roll over and take it.

In truth, some people just need to admit that they're masochists and get on with it.

However what does that have to do with the topic?

I love it how pewpewbrears think all their t2 stuff came from thin air...

What does this


have to do with this topic?

We're long past discussing the OP.

Nothing's stopping you from bringing your "allies" into a mutual alliance. Or having your allies pony up the cash and wardec the aggressors themselves. Or any number of methods that involve actual allies, and not just highsec ganker corps who merely want cost-effective workarounds around having to pay a wardec fee themselves (which I imagine is what you actually want).

Someone should make a chart that on the Y axis has all your options for fighting back against nullsec wardecs, and on the X axis the options of "Works if you want to fight back against a nullsec alliance" and "Works if you want a free/low-cost war against a nullsec alliance"

Actually, no. It goes to the core of the drama.

Nullsec people who want highsec to be like nullsec, and vice-versa.

Why the game mechanic gets broken in a way it doesn't mitigate, but encourage, the drama is at the heart of the OP... which was mine...

Can you please phrase your answer in the form of a question? That makes absolutely no sense...

Speaking of the costs as "drama", I find it hilarious that the costs were much lower before this expansion and you couldn't bring in allies. Is it now a problem because you can't scrape the war-dec?

Space-holding alliances should be unprotected by concord, and thus "kill on sight" whenever they enter Empire space.

Cue the null-bear tears

So the problem is not the permadec, its the trillions to bring allies and the disconnect between the linear increase on costs for the attacker and the logarithmic increase in costs for the defender.

I love it how pewpewbrears think all their t2 stuff came from thin air...

So, what does that have to do with this


Besides, costs for the attackers is determined by the number of people in the target corp/alliance, while costs for the defenders is determined by the number of corps/alliances that are brought in as defenders. It's in your best interest to ally with a big corp or two since you get allies much cheaper than attackers get targets.

They all would simply never venture into Empire except in neutral-to-highsec-blue-to-themselves alts.

Problem solved.

Its what FW players already do to be able to go to Jita if they are not caldari.

Those are three axis. Four if you count free and low cost separate.

You're not good at graphing. You do not need a 4-dimensional structure to visualize this.

You're not good at graphing. You do not need a 4-dimensional structure to visualize this.