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Millions to attack, Trillions to defend?

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Doctor Benway Kado GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 150	Posted - 2012.06.17 17:18:00 - [61] - Quote Has anyone pointed out that if all 46 corps combined into one, you could have them all for free? They might not even have to combine into one corps, I'm fairly sure an alliance would work. Need to SiSi it...
Nicolo da'Vicenza Divine Power. Cascade Imminent 1233	Posted - 2012.06.17 17:20:00 - [62] - Quote Doctor Benway Kado wrote: Has anyone pointed out that if all 46 corps combined into one, you could have them all for free? They might not even have to combine into one corps, I'm fairly sure an alliance would work. Need to SiSi it... I pointed it out and everyone got extremely upset and mad Pointing out that Jade could also save money by trying to actually defend himself instead of getting highsec wardec corps looking to skirt around paying a wardec fee to fight his battles for him was met with incredulity.
Crunchie Attuxors Always Another Corporate Venture 11	Posted - 2012.06.17 17:25:00 - [63] - Quote Doctor Benway Kado wrote: Has anyone pointed out that if all 46 corps combined into one, you could have them all for free? They might not even have to combine into one corps, I'm fairly sure an alliance would work. Need to SiSi it... That misses the point I am making, which is precisely forcing people to consolidate politically is breaking the sandbox. Please read the thread. One of the spiritual predecessors to EVE, like it or not, is the old game Freelancer. Many of us play EVE for that reason. A sandbox with tools to play in the sand. Forcing political consolidation and FW upon players who do not want to engage in it - for whatever reason - is breaking the sandbox. The metagame is part of the game, forcing to play this metagame in a certain fashion (FW and alliance mongering) is not. If I want to make a living offering my assistance to corps at war, that is, be a merc, I don't want my business opportunities limited artificially, like this nerf does.
Crunchie Attuxors Always Another Corporate Venture 11	Posted - 2012.06.17 17:26:00 - [64] - Quote Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote: Doctor Benway Kado wrote: Has anyone pointed out that if all 46 corps combined into one, you could have them all for free? They might not even have to combine into one corps, I'm fairly sure an alliance would work. Need to SiSi it... I pointed it out and everyone got extremely upset and mad Pointing out that Jade could also save money by trying to actually defend himself instead of getting highsec wardec corps looking to skirt around paying a wardec fee to fight his battles for him was met with incredulity. Who got mad?
Alavaria Fera GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 1038	Posted - 2012.06.17 17:30:00 - [65] - Quote Doctor Benway Kado wrote: Has anyone pointed out that if all 46 corps combined into one, you could have them all for free? They might not even have to combine into one corps, I'm fairly sure an alliance would work. Need to SiSi it... I think one alliance work work, a bunch of allies on the list are alliances, not just corps. But imagine if someone got in and pushed their button... Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd
Doctor Benway Kado GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 150	Posted - 2012.06.17 17:34:00 - [66] - Quote You can still do all that tho? There's just wssociated with wardecs, hardly something new, and encourages defenders to be more selective in their contracts. Which I would think would be better for mercenaries - you're not trying to sell something that scrubs are giving away for free
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction 2332	Posted - 2012.06.17 17:42:00 - [67] - Quote Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote: Doctor Benway Kado wrote: Has anyone pointed out that if all 46 corps combined into one, you could have them all for free? They might not even have to combine into one corps, I'm fairly sure an alliance would work. Need to SiSi it... I pointed it out and everyone got extremely upset and mad Pointing out that Jade could also save money by trying to actually defend himself instead of getting highsec wardec corps looking to skirt around paying a wardec fee to fight his battles for him was met with incredulity. Well the whole point of the counter to the goon wardec was to allow people to easily get involved with the war without needing to break up their own corps and alliances and to simply fight the people they wanted to fight. The essence of wardec finesse in eve online is never to spend more (money/effort) on the fighting of the war than one's enemy spends (otherwise you've already kinda lost) Goonswarm spends 50m isk with zero leadership effort and the participation of whatever random stealthbomber pilots want to cruise around empire. And counter that costs more than that in terms of effort/mone would be losing by default. Hence converting a diverse group of hisec heroes who want to gank goons in hisec into some kind of single alliance entity or single corp entity would be spending massively disproportionate effort (and thus loosing regardless of the outcome in space). This is never been about me "saving money" - I don't intend to spent 1 isk on fighting this war to be quite honest. Until such point the wardec system is improved so that the attacker risks something significant in these wars there is literally no point investing one's own money in the thing (its the very definition of getting trolled.). As also pointed out - trying to do a defensive alliance and bring in all the separate wardec interested corps under one structure would run a massive risk of cheap goon infiltration and alliance disband giving you guys the option for a 1b isk kill of the alliance structure which would probably be your biggest "kill" of the campaign. Without CCP providing new tools to secure alliances (like for example being able to choose to create a truly dictatorial alliance with no executor voting) then this will never be a valid option for a disparate coalition of allies. End of the day its all about efficiency of effort. The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free!
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction 2332	Posted - 2012.06.17 17:44:00 - [68] - Quote Doctor Benway Kado wrote: You can still do all that tho? There's just wssociated with wardecs, hardly something new, and encourages defenders to be more selective in their contracts. Which I would think would be better for mercenaries - you're not trying to sell something that scrubs are giving away for free In 1.1 patch mercenaries will need to pay the defender to play a role in wars. The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free!
Nicolo da'Vicenza Divine Power. Cascade Imminent 1233	Posted - 2012.06.17 17:44:00 - [69] - Quote you should just join an npc corp jade, then you can have ultimate wartime isk efficiency
Crunchie Attuxors Always Another Corporate Venture 11	Posted - 2012.06.17 17:46:00 - [70] - Quote Doctor Benway Kado wrote: You can still do all that tho? There's just wssociated with wardecs, hardly something new, and encourages defenders to be more selective in their contracts. Which I would think would be better for mercenaries - you're not trying to sell something that scrubs are giving away for free That is a red herring. I am not arguing for free allies. That clearly needed tweaking. But when having 6 allies costs more than a plex every two weeks you are doing two things: 1) Forcing corp/alliance consolidation - breaks the sandbox 2) Remove the incentive to hire merc, which will make carebears run for neutral arts or figure out other decshield exploits - breaks the combat fun. Its a lose for mercs, its a lose for carebears, its a lose for the sandbox. Not even the FW nullsec people win because wardecs are pretty much irrelevant to them (did Burn Jita need a wardec?) So who wins here? No one.

Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction 2332	Posted - 2012.06.17 17:47:00 - [71] - Quote Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote: you should just join an npc corp jade, then you can have ultimate wartime isk efficiency If I did that I wouldn't be able to troll your leader into losing billions in an ineffectual flailing attempt to set the "death commandos" on me. The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free!
Alavaria Fera GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 1038	Posted - 2012.06.17 17:48:00 - [72] - Quote Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote: you should just join an npc corp jade, then you can have ultimate wartime isk efficiency Depends. If you mission or stuff the NPC corp eats taxes that disappear into the void. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction 2332	Posted - 2012.06.17 17:49:00 - [73] - Quote Crunchie Attuxors wrote: Doctor Benway Kado wrote: You can still do all that tho? There's just wssociated with wardecs, hardly something new, and encourages defenders to be more selective in their contracts. Which I would think would be better for mercenaries - you're not trying to sell something that scrubs are giving away for free That is a red herring. I am not arguing for free allies. That clearly needed tweaking. But when having 6 allies costs more than a plex every two weeks you are doing two things: 1) Forcing corp/alliance consolidation - breaks the sandbox 2) Remove the incentive to hire merc, which will make carebears run for neutral arts or figure out other decshield exploits - breaks the combat fun. Its a lose for mercs, its a lose for carebears, its a lose for the sandbox. Not even the FW nullsec people win because wardecs are pretty much irrelevant to them (did Burn Jita need a wardec?) So who wins here? No one. Funnily enough this system is a bit of a lose for FW people as well, since with Inferno 1.0 attempted selective wardeccing of particular militia corp/alliances to split up their collective efforts could be resolved via the ally system (ie the whole militia joins into the war and fights the aggressor together.) That is now completely off the table and once more its possible to disruptor militia operations by targetting specific corps and alliances amongst their number. The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free!
Commit Sudoku GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 60	Posted - 2012.06.17 17:56:00 - [74] - Quote Crunchie Attuxors wrote: I am not saying there should be fairness. Quite the contrary. I am saying there should be freedom. Freedom can be unfair. There is freedom. Plenty of it. We just own more freedom than you. guy on foreground: me posting guy in background: you
Crunchie Attuxors Always Another Corporate Venture 11	Posted - 2012.06.17 17:58:00 - [75] - Quote Jade Constantine wrote: Crunchie Attuxors wrote: Doctor Benway Kado wrote: You can still do all that tho? There's just wssociated with wardecs, hardly something new, and encourages defenders to be more selective in their contracts. Which I would think would be better for mercenaries - you're not trying to sell something that scrubs are giving away for free That is a red herring. I am not arguing for free allies. That clearly needed tweaking. But when having 6 allies costs more than a plex every two weeks you are doing two things: 1) Forcing corp/alliance consolidation - breaks the sandbox 2) Remove the incentive to hire merc, which will make carebears run for neutral arts or figure out other decshield exploits - breaks the combat fun. Its a lose for mercs, its a lose for carebears, its a lose for the sandbox. Not even the FW nullsec people win because wardecs are pretty much irrelevant to them (did Burn Jita need a wardec?) So who wins here? No one. Funnily enough this system is a bit of a lose for FW people as well, since with Inferno 1.0 attempted selective wardeccing of particular militia corp/alliances to split up their collective efforts could be resolved via the ally system (ie the whole militia joins into the war and fights the aggressor together.) That is now completely off the table and once more its possible to disruptor militia operations by targetting specific corps and alliances amongst their number. Which is in part why I think you are wrong Jade. This change benefits no one. Not even the people you say it benefits. Why blame malice when incompetence is more common?
Crunchie Attuxors Always Another Corporate Venture 11	Posted - 2012.06.17 18:00:00 - [76] - Quote Commit Sudoku wrote: Crunchie Attuxors wrote: I am not saying there should be fairness. Quite the contrary. I am saying there should be freedom. Freedom can be unfair. There is freedom. Plenty of it. We just own more freedom than you. I don't think that word means what you think it does. Also, you obviously didn't read the rest of the thing. I have no problem with the goons. Every drama needs a villain. This is a change that only really affects Empire. Why is the Goons so concerned?
Crunchie Attuxors Always Another Corporate Venture 11	Posted - 2012.06.17 18:41:00 - [77] - Quote Crunchie Attuxors wrote: This is a change that only really affects Empire. Why is the Goons so concerned? Wow, silence for the first time ever. Do I get a medal?
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction 2333	Posted - 2012.06.17 19:00:00 - [78] - Quote Crunchie Attuxors wrote: Jade Constantine wrote: Crunchie Attuxors wrote: Doctor Benway Kado wrote: You can still do all that tho? There's just wssociated with wardecs, hardly something new, and encourages defenders to be more selective in their contracts. Which I would think would be better for mercenaries - you're not trying to sell something that scrubs are giving away for free That is a red herring. I am not arguing for free allies. That clearly needed tweaking. But when having 6 allies costs more than a plex every two weeks you are doing two things: 1) Forcing corp/alliance consolidation - breaks the sandbox 2) Remove the incentive to hire merc, which will make carebears run for neutral arts or figure out other decshield exploits - breaks the combat fun. Its a lose for mercs, its a lose for carebears, its a lose for the sandbox. Not even the FW nullsec people win because wardecs are pretty much irrelevant to them (did Burn Jita need a wardec?) So who wins here? No one. Funnily enough this system is a bit of a lose for FW people as well, since with Inferno 1.0 attempted selective wardeccing of particular militia corp/alliances to split up their collective efforts could be resolved via the ally system (ie the whole militia joins into the war and fights the aggressor together.) That is now completely off the table and once more its possible to disruptor militia operations by targetting specific corps and alliances amongst their number. Which is in part why I think you are wrong Jade. This change benefits no one. Not even the people you say it benefits. Why blame malice when incompetence is more common? Well its a fair point. I just finished listening to the Crossing Zebra's podcast ep six Which includes an interview with the Noire CSM guy at about 44mins that is pretty informative and does tend to support your point of view. Worth a listen if you haven't already. The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free!
Cipher Jones The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars 529	Posted - 2012.06.17 19:02:00 - [79] - Quote Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote: also, a real sandbox would be all about removing CONCORD anything else is a compromise In a real sandbox there wouldn't be concord, but then players would have control over the jump gates. Since there are more carebears than PvP'ers, this would ensure that most of space would retain hisec staus, even if once in a while systems were lost to piracy. We now return you to your regularly scheduled **** poast.
Barbara Nichole Cryogenic Consultancy Black Sun Alliance 237	Posted - 2012.06.17 19:06:00 - [80] - Quote Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote: also, a real sandbox would be all about removing CONCORD anything else is a compromise I would only agree with you if it also meant removal of sov, alliances and there was a corp population cap. [IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/OldST.jpg[/IMG]

Barbara Nichole Cryogenic Consultancy Black Sun Alliance 237	Posted - 2012.06.17 19:08:00 - [81] - Quote Commit Sudoku wrote: Crunchie Attuxors wrote: I am not saying there should be fairness. Quite the contrary. I am saying there should be freedom. Freedom can be unfair. There is freedom. Plenty of it. We just own more freedom than you. I would argue that you are some of the least free people in the game. [IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/OldST.jpg[/IMG]
Crunchie Attuxors Always Another Corporate Venture 11	Posted - 2012.06.17 19:33:00 - [82] - Quote Cipher Jones wrote: Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote: also, a real sandbox would be all about removing CONCORD anything else is a compromise In a real sandbox there wouldn't be concord, but then players would have control over the jump gates. Since there are more carebears than PvP'ers, this would ensure that most of space would retain hisec staus, even if once in a while systems were lost to piracy. Everyone has a wish list. Even do I. That is not the point I raise. I am ready to accept the sandbox has boundaries - whatever they are. I am not ready to accept tools in that sandbox that are broken and useless and keep me from enjoying. Take the technium nerf controversy. However you look at it, is not about the boundaries of the sandbox, but about the tools in it being broken. So this whole trillion isk per ally thing, or billion dollar ally thing, breaks the new wardec system, makes it worse than the previous one, and makes it worse than the previous one to all the players involved. It benefits no one. That is what people don't get. If there is any unfairness here, its for all of Empire space war mechanics, defender, attacker, spectator etc. So the "Goons R Devils" spectacles are keeping otherwise reasonable people from seeing this. As I said, it is clear CCP punched this one in.
sabre906 Old Spice Syndicate Sailors of the Sacred Spice 231	Posted - 2012.06.17 19:35:00 - [83] - Quote Commit Sudoku wrote: Crunchie Attuxors wrote: I am not saying there should be fairness. Quite the contrary. I am saying there should be freedom. Freedom can be unfair. There is freedom. Plenty of it. We just own more freedom than you. The Mittiani owns you now, little goon. Standings Improvement Service https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=19454
Crunchie Attuxors Always Another Corporate Venture 11	Posted - 2012.06.17 19:58:00 - [84] - Quote sabre906 wrote: Commit Sudoku wrote: Crunchie Attuxors wrote: I am not saying there should be fairness. Quite the contrary. I am saying there should be freedom. Freedom can be unfair. There is freedom. Plenty of it. We just own more freedom than you. The Mittiani owns you now, little goon. Freedom to campgate for 12 hours in exchange for a free cruiser.
Gorn Arming Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation 3	Posted - 2012.06.17 20:20:00 - [85] - Quote Let's compromise--you can have as many defensive wardecs as you want as long as I don't have to read about each one in eve-mail.
Delen Ormand Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 8	Posted - 2012.06.17 20:45:00 - [86] - Quote Doctor Benway Kado wrote: You can still do all that tho? There's just wssociated with wardecs, hardly something new, and encourages defenders to be more selective in their contracts. Which I would think would be better for mercenaries - you're not trying to sell something that scrubs are giving away for free If all a mercenary corp can offer is the same thing a bunch of uncoordinated strangers can offer, I don't see why their trade should be protected. Surely if you're supplying a service, you need to offer something that requires more skill than average or do something that other people don't want to do? So I don't buy the argument that these changes actually help the mercenary market.
Doctor Benway Kado GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 150	Posted - 2012.06.17 21:03:00 - [87] - Quote Crunchie Attuxors wrote: Crunchie Attuxors wrote: This is a change that only really affects Empire. Why is the Goons so concerned? Wow, silence for the first time ever. Do I get a medal? Because your alt is posting hilarious conspiracy theories that are so bad, they got new rules added to the forum? I am implying that you are Jade Constantine, btw.
Doctor Benway Kado GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 150	Posted - 2012.06.17 21:11:00 - [88] - Quote Delen Ormand wrote: Doctor Benway Kado wrote: You can still do all that tho? There's just wssociated with wardecs, hardly something new, and encourages defenders to be more selective in their contracts. Which I would think would be better for mercenaries - you're not trying to sell something that scrubs are giving away for free If all a mercenary corp can offer is the same thing a bunch of uncoordinated strangers can offer, I don't see why their trade should be protected. Surely if you're supplying a service, you need to offer something that requires more skill than average or do something that other people don't want to do? So I don't buy the argument that these changes actually help the mercenary market. That's great that you don't accept facts, but it doesn't really change them. Seriously, try it with gravity, tell me how that works out. If people are going to hire themselves out as mercenaries, there has to be a reason for selection. Otherwise, we get the exact situation we have now - absolutely no reason to choose who to take on as allies. It wasn't a particularly bad situation - no better or worse than before, where careful use of the corp wallet let you have cheap wardecs. It would have made things more simple, logistically, for trade hub campers. But if the purpose of the ally system was to create a marketplace for hired soldiers, it failed miserably. Going back to the old system wouldn't fix this either, since the idea of hired mercenaries didn't work back then either. If CCP wanted to achieve the goals laid out, something would have to change. Whether you think that goal is worth achieving is up in the air - I doubt there will ever be a truly functional mercenary market without some sort of accountability backed by the mechanics, or at least a sort of actual 'market' in game, but that's my opinion. But at the very least, it's a step in the right direction. Welp, all out of serious posts for the day. Gonna have to fall back on my collection of tired memes and 2/10 trolling.
Crunchie Attuxors Always Another Corporate Venture 12	Posted - 2012.06.17 21:23:00 - [89] - Quote Doctor Benway Kado wrote: I am implying that you are Jade Constantine, btw. I mean, Jade's tinfoil has nothing on yours. Yours drives the prices of aluminum up every time you need a new one. 1/10
Victoria Sin Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 15	Posted - 2012.06.17 21:27:00 - [90] - Quote Crunchie Attuxors wrote: Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote: also, a real sandbox would be all about removing CONCORD anything else is a compromise I think there is merit to that If you were in game before CONCORD existed, well, I don't think you would see any merit in it whatsoever.



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