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Hamano Walker	Posted - 2009.12.25 22:21:00 - [61] It sounds to me like EBANK needs a new public relations guy. This may not be so much that Ray is a problem as that EBANK's policies have soured everyone's mood. The problem I see with them getting solvent again is that they seem to rely on dividends. If customers quit paying dividends then the money never reappears. EBANK appears to have been more of a mutual fund that gave out loans than a bank. Honestly, I have several ideas of how EBANK could be made to work. I don't have the desire to stay with it forever, but I would be more than happy to help return it to solvency (and yes, Ray, my application is in). I'm willing to stick my neck out for EBANK in exchange for fair compensation. How many depositors would be willing to work with me to establish terms that, while not optimal, are better than what you have now for the reconstruction? Please note that I have already volunteered to take a position in which: 1. I have no direct access to company assets, so that there is no need to worry about me running off with what they have left. 2. I have volunteered to work strictly on a commission basis. I'm going to show the bank some trust and see if they live up to their end. I'm sticking my neck out here with a chance of not getting anything in return so I'm just as invested in EBANK operating openly and fairly as all of its depositors.
Spectre Wraith Darwin Inc.	Posted - 2009.12.26 00:11:00 - [62] Originally by: Athre Originally by: Spectre Wraith The simplest solution would be 50% of normal interest. You don't want to pay interest at all to expedite recovery, customers expect full interest (as per your original agreement with them), I think all parties would agree on a middle ground. Where do you believe this interest payment should be coming from? The vocal minority apparently believes not investment dividends LOL. As Raw mentioned, it'd be part of a phased plan. Until you enter phase 2-3-whatever, interest can't be withdrawn from an account. There should be a stated goal (complete solvency?) when interest could be made available to customers and they also begin to earn their full 100% again. You asked for a reasonable solution, it's really not necessary to insert sarcasm into every post/reply.
YesI'mAnAlt Amarr Royal Amarr Institute	Posted - 2009.12.26 00:14:00 - [63] Originally by: Hamano Walker It sounds to me like EBANK needs a new public relations guy. This may not be so much that Ray is a problem as that EBANK's policies have soured everyone's mood. I think you are right in that the primary cause of the poor mood is not that EBANK trolls/insults its own customers or ignores legitimate questions. But I'm not sure you've nailed the root cause. In my opinion, the root cause is different opinions on the question "Whose money is it?". EBANK depositors (at least many of them) would answer that the money belongs to them. EBANK may have lost a lot of money, but the remaining assets belong to the depositors, and they have a right to say what happens to it. They believe that EBANK is obligated to formally consult (dare I suggest a vote) on what happens next to the company. In contrast, Ray believes that the money belongs to the EBANK corporation. While he wants to provide good customer service, the customers have no right to intervene in the corporate operations -- any more than my purchase of a Logitech mouse gives me the right to criticise their pension policy. The constant forum harping is an unwelcome distraction from his CEO duties. I think a great deal of the rancor comes as a direct result of this dichotomy. For example, when Ray announced that EBANK only had around 30% coverage of its liabilities, and would freeze withdrawls for an extended time, one of the depositors, assuming that Ray was obligated to negotiate, asked why Ray had made that decision instead of deciding to liquidate. Ray in turn, feeling that customers had no right to make corporate decisions, responded in about the same vein Steve Jobs did when Dell Computer famously suggested that Apple dissolve the corporation. According to the EvE mechanics, Ray is right. There is absolutely no mechanism to force EBANK to liquidate, and absolutely no structure for depositors to seize their money. However, I think the remaining EBANK members have not realised just how badly their actions have hurt their reputations. To many people, being told they can not withdraw the 30% left is a separate default from the first 70% loss, and one the current BOD is directly responsible for.
Leneerra Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.12.26 00:18:00 - [64] I will give you my opinion since you are now asking us how you should pay intrests, and you seem to accept that ebank is bankrupt in its current state. Currently you seem to be able to cover roughly 35% of deposits If you could pay 1.5% on all deposits if they were valued at 35% of their current listed amount and still make a profit as a bank then it might still be viable and you could do the following: Transfer all is into the sweep acount. Revalue them at 35% of their listed amount. Allow people to put the money into the savings account (at 1.5% intrest) Allow new deposits Allow withdrawals as long as the bank has the liquidity it needs (that 700B limit you mentioned before) Rewrite your TOS and stick with it (even if it is inconvenient). However, if you cannot affordt to pay 1.5% over the currently covered deposits, then the bank is truly lost
Kapila Parthalan	Posted - 2009.12.26 03:47:00 - [65] According to the public financials, EBANK is currently making a return of 16,883,523,734, which is 3.27% of the 515,782,060,735 invested, 0.88% of the 1,909,277,318,495 liabilities, and 2.67% of the 633,030,118,506 assets. I'm not sure how much EBANK needs to pay if interest payments resume, as it depends on the amount of isk in checking vs savings vs sweep accounts. I believe that information used to be available in the public financials, under required return, but it is now reported as 0 since interest is frozen. The statistics page is inaccurate, since it reports the total account balance as 406,847,071,029.03. It also reports that there is 53,397,650,235.51 in savings accounts, 275,420,694,735.07 in checking accounts, and 77,911,078,977.45 in sweep accounts. This seems like it only includes API-verified accounts; am I right? Can you give us the actual amounts in the different types of accounts? In any case, EBANK's interest obligations are probably less than the 2.67% return EBANK is making on its total assets, so if EBANK revalued accounts to 33.16%, the current assets/liabilities ratio, they should be able to cover interest payments. However, it would not be possible for EBANK to pay interest on the full account value in its current state, as the return of 0.88% would be insufficient to cover interest, let alone recover lost isk. So, while EBANK should not freeze interest, they cannot afford to pay interest now without revaluing accounts or greatly increasing returns. I don't expect they will be able to achieve returns of even 1.5% on liabilities. That would require a 4.52% return on assets, but a great deal of EBANK assets are in Titan BPOs (51.2%), which are returning 3.09%. That means the remaining 48.8% of assets must return 6.02%, which seems far too high, especially since EBANK is only making 2.23% on them currently. After the initial account freeze, we were told that EBANK would increase returns, but that still hasn't materialized after several months. Can you update us on the progress in this area, if any, and the plans for the future? I am forced to conclude that fulfilling their interest obligations is simply not going to work. The situation is bad enough even without interest. At their current return of 2.67%, with compounding, it would take 42 months to recover to 100% of liabilities! Liquidation withdrawals and transfers will probably help a bit, but we can't tell yet. On the other hand, returns might drop as assets increase.
SetrakDark Caldari DarkCorp Technology and Finance	Posted - 2009.12.26 03:53:00 - [66] I don't think anyone is suggesting actual monthly interest payments, just that interest continues to accrue to reflect the continued, forced use of depositors' funds.
Kapila Parthalan	Posted - 2009.12.26 04:03:00 - [67] Originally by: SetrakDark I don't think anyone is suggesting actual monthly interest payments, just that interest continues to accrue to reflect the continued, forced use of depositors' funds. I know, but my argument shows that if they did that, their assets/liabilities ratio would go down instead of up.
SetrakDark Caldari DarkCorp Technology and Finance	Posted - 2009.12.26 04:10:00 - [68] Edited by: SetrakDark on 26/12/2009 04:10:00 Oh, I see. Sorry, too much holiday fun. I think the whole continued interest argument only holds weight as a reason to just fold the whole thing. It's not that it should be paid so much as the fact that EBank can't pay it.
Kapila Parthalan	Posted - 2009.12.26 04:32:00 - [69] Originally by: SetrakDark Edited by: SetrakDark on 26/12/2009 04:10:00 Oh, I see. Sorry, too much holiday fun. I think the whole continued interest argument only holds weight as a reason to just fold the whole thing. It's not that it should be paid so much as the fact that EBank can't pay it. Yes, I think I agree. There are a lot of reasons to liquidate, revalue accounts, or otherwise end EBANK's insolvency (relatively) quickly. The interest obligation is yet another one.
Kwint Sommer Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2009.12.26 05:08:00 - [70] Reviewing the terms of my IPO I have concluded that I have no right or authority to suspend interest payments, particularly not on a preferential basis as would be required here. To that end I am closing the bond and paying back all investors. Investors can expect to have the funds directly deposited over the course of the weekend. Please return your shares to me or the holding corp at your convenience. EBANK is in default. They have failed to pay interest and are denying access to the principle in direct conflict with the terms of the original agreement. Hence, the value of their shares will be paid to me and held in trust until an amicable solution can be reached or until such time as their debt equals the value of the shares, then it will be considered paid. The payment of interest by Kwint Industries is no longer relevant, in accordance with my right to initiate a buyback, it is being shutdown. The only issue remaining is EBANK's defaulted debt and contested funds which I am personally holding as collateral until the debt is settled. They themselves established precedent for holding assets of those they believe to have acted against them, see EBANK vs RMT'ers. Everything I am doing is within the bounds of the rules they themselves are operating on and I am no more a scammer for doing this than EBANK is for failing to pay the RMT'ers. In the interest of full disclosure, several EBANK employees hold shares totaling several billion. All of this will be repaid in full at the time of closure. I have no interest in getting petty or making this personal which I very much could. I hope EBANK will reciprocate.
Angus McSpork Caldari	Posted - 2009.12.26 05:19:00 - [71] Personally I think you should require ebank employees hand over their API key in a NON-NEGOTIABLE manner and then slag them for not coming up with a suitable work around when they refuse.. You know, just in case those ebank employees are involved in RMT, of course
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.12.26 05:37:00 - [72] Originally by: Angus McSpork Personally I think you should require ebank employees hand over their API key in a NON-NEGOTIABLE manner and then slag them for not coming up with a suitable work around when they refuse.. You know, just in case those ebank employees are involved in RMT, of course It's only fair.
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.12.26 07:27:00 - [73] Edited by: Ji Sama on 26/12/2009 07:28:03 Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: Ji Sama Since no matter how many you pay back, you will always be behind in owed interest. Only way for ebank to be a success is to pay back everything incl interest. In that case, EBANK can't be anything but a failure, right? Not even a partial success, given the issues it has? If ebank returns the clients isk minus interest, i might be persuaded to call it a partial success, or partial failure. (patato potato) I still trust the bod, i just dont agree with it :D Originally by: Amarr Citizen 155 Edited by: Amarr Citizen 155 on 25/12/2009 21:01:49 Just out of curiosity, what do you guys thank we should be paying in interest while accounts are frozen? What percentage? Please feel free to also back up your % with some sort of reasoning. Edit: spelling The agreed upon interest. It is not like agreements just disappear, because you have trouble with your finances :D
Ballet	Posted - 2009.12.26 09:11:00 - [74] Well fair enough decision, so ISK received, I have now returned the shares to Kwint himself.
Gabriel Virtus hirr	Posted - 2009.12.26 09:15:00 - [75] Edited by: Gabriel Virtus on 26/12/2009 09:15:37 Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: Gabriel Virtus Why don't you just write off all of your debts? Then you will be recovered now! -GV Because that's a bad idea. But writing off most of your debts is just fine? You should require anyone that holds your debt to jump through various hoops and threaten them with theft if they do not... oh, wait... -GV edit: spelling
Kwint Sommer Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2009.12.26 10:49:00 - [76] All investors have been repaid, the bond is closed. EBANK's money is being held pending resolution of their defaulted debts.
Ray McCormack Nordar Innovations.	Posted - 2009.12.26 10:55:00 - [77] Originally by: Kwint Sommer EBANK's money is being held pending resolution of their defaulted debts. I have requested that Athre return the shares to you. Your known account balances will be zeroed. What to do about the remaining 3b (or so) that is still outstanding to us is now your decision. My favourite suggestions include: * Pay it back to us in maple syrup. * Buy 3b worth of EBANK ISK at the current market rate of 1.2b and use that to pay us back. * Don't pay us back and assume the moral high ground. Titan BPC For Sale \| Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Gabriel Virtus hirr	Posted - 2009.12.26 11:03:00 - [78] Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: Kwint Sommer EBANK's money is being held pending resolution of their defaulted debts. I have requested that Athre return the shares to you. Your known account balances will be zeroed. What to do about the remaining 3b (or so) that is still outstanding to us is now your decision. My favourite suggestions include: * Pay it back to us in maple syrup. * Buy 3b worth of EBANK ISK at the current market rate of 1.2b and use that to pay us back. * Don't pay us back and assume the moral high ground. I want to not like Ray soooo much, but I cannot help it. He is hilarious. And I love waffles. -GV
Redbad Minmatar Mountain Militia	Posted - 2009.12.26 11:08:00 - [79] Bonds closing over business disputes fueled by emotions and unreliable ran businesses. That's a New Eden's first.
Kwint Sommer Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2009.12.26 11:39:00 - [80] EBANK has unavoidable obligations to its depositors. No matter how much they may want or even need to, they cannot shirk there responsibilities. If they cannot pay the promised interest then they need to stop borrowing money at those rates. If this is likewise impossible (because they are operating on a huge deficit and cannot repay depositors) then they have to accept that the bank is bankrupt and needs to be closed. Given the circumstances an IOU is generally acceptable but simply defaulting on the debt is not. Now, I am of the opinion that the bank may yet be saved. They are several hundred billion in the hole but they are not quite so far gone that with some solid market work they cannot recover. With but a tiny sliver of the amount of money they have I made enough to buy a titan or two with the Dominion changes. Likewise, Cosmoray took what must have been less than 10% of their capital and turned it into a 100B profit in a third the time that we've been waiting for Ray's report and the way he tells it, he spread a lot around and didn't push it to its limits. Likewise, many others made small fortunes doing what I did and EBANK could have been among them and what's more? They could have done it with a few percent of their total ISK. In my mind there's no excuse for EBANK failing to earn at least 60B monthly. With interest on the order of 1% to no more than 3% and probably less than half that, this should not be anywhere near the insurmountable burden they are making it out to be. Now, whether the bank will make decent returns -apparently for the first time in its history- is a question I don't feel fit to answer. Certainly they have the capacity but will they, especially given their incredibly lack-luster track record? I don't know and I don't feel it's my place to say but I do know that if they decide to move forward and rebuild they cannot do so by ditching their commitments. If they are to be a genuine business they have to honor their debts. They need to restart interest and include it for the missing months. Maybe they'll never pay it. Maybe they'll only ever pay out negotiated settlements that reflect principal and old interest but they have to keep it on the books and if they're going to claim they have recovered they have to have either paid this or come to some sort of agreement with every last one of their account holders. Once your at the point where you have a time table for recovery and are starting to liquidate accounts you can negotiate the fraction of it you're going to pay but in the beginning you have to keep it on the books. Anything less is just dishonest and a massive breach of contract. It's their money, you at least have to acknowledge the continued interest you owe them on it. So, for today, simply include the interest. Once you have a better idea of the situation we can start to address what fraction will be paid but for now, just acknowledge your obligations to your depositors and include it in the account totals. Do that and your money will be released.
Kapila Parthalan	Posted - 2009.12.26 13:48:00 - [81] I doubt that including interest will be advantageous for either EBANK or its depositors. As liabilities increase, the assets/liabilities ratio decreases, so that if EBANK liquidates the depositors are paid the same amount whether interest is included or not. The same is true for liquidation withdrawals. On the other hand, if EBANK attempts to recover fully, the inclusion of interest would make recovery impossible (see my above posts) or at least greatly slowed.
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2009.12.26 14:09:00 - [82] Originally by: Kapila Parthalan I doubt that including interest will be advantageous for either EBANK or its depositors. As liabilities increase, the assets/liabilities ratio decreases, so that if EBANK liquidates the depositors are paid the same amount whether interest is included or not. The same is true for liquidation withdrawals. On the other hand, if EBANK attempts to recover fully, the inclusion of interest would make recovery impossible (see my above posts) or at least greatly slowed. I can't believe nobody pointed that out before now.
Kwint Sommer Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2009.12.26 14:43:00 - [83] You're partially right, if EBANK liquidates the interest is pointless. However, if they "recover" they very much owe that interest to their investors. You can argue that by making the recovery take longer the interest does a disservice to the customers but I'm not arguing it be forced upon them. I'm arguing it simply be acknowledged by EBANK and included in account balances. If a customer would prefer to cash out once the principle is available they'll still get the same amount of money at the same time they would have if EBANK continues to pretend they no longer have to pay interest. The issue here is not what's best for the customers. The issue is EBANK trying to unilaterally default on their debt and then declare they've settled their accounts. It's not just bad business practice, it's a scam and I won't stand for it. I realize there needs to be some flexibility. I called for as much but for any negotiations to occur the starting point has to be EBANK acknowledging what they owe.
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2009.12.26 14:47:00 - [84] Originally by: Kwint Sommer You're partially right, if EBANK liquidates the interest is pointless. However, if they "recover" they very much owe that interest to their investors. You can argue that by making the recovery take longer the interest does a disservice to the customers but I'm not arguing it be forced upon them. I'm arguing it simply be acknowledged by EBANK and included in account balances. If a customer would prefer to cash out once the principle is available they'll still get the same amount of money at the same time they would have if EBANK continues to pretend they no longer have to pay interest. The issue here is not what's best for the customers. The issue is EBANK trying to unilaterally default on their debt and then declare they've settled their accounts. It's not just bad business practice, it's a scam and I won't stand for it. I realize there needs to be some flexibility. I called for as much but for any negotiations to occur the starting point has to be EBANK acknowledging what they owe. The options are very very simple: Do you want the principle in 2010 with no interest, or do you want your principle with interest in 2012?
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2009.12.26 14:55:00 - [85] Why is everyone pampering Kwint? Black Sun Empire
Scam Alert	Posted - 2009.12.26 14:59:00 - [86] Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: Kwint Sommer EBANK's money is being held pending resolution of their defaulted debts. I have requested that Athre return the shares to you. Your known account balances will be zeroed. What to do about the remaining 3b (or so) that is still outstanding to us is now your decision. My favourite suggestions include: * Pay it back to us in maple syrup. * Buy 3b worth of EBANK ISK at the current market rate of 1.2b and use that to pay us back. * Don't pay us back and assume the moral high ground. Disgusting... Try to keep private customer comms private. You are a complete #$%^&. Customers talking about businesses is one thing.... businesses talking about customers is quite another. Taikun P.S. Scam Alert Alt talking because Ray is now a known scammer.
Kwint Sommer Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2009.12.26 15:01:00 - [87] Originally by: LaVista Vista The options are very very simple: Do you want the principle in 2010 with no interest, or do you want your principle with interest in 2012? That is a completely false dichotomy. COMPLETELY FALSE. Here's the real options: EBANK declares "what obligations?" and pays back principle in 2010 EBANK acknowledges it's full liabilities and does not return to solvency until 2012 EBANK still makes the same and can pay principle in 2010. For those who wish to take it they can cash out just the same then. As EBANK slowly recovers customers can cash out at any point getting a portion of first principle and then principle plus portions of accumulated interest. Come 2012 those who choose to wait get full repayment and having legitimately cleared the last of the debt EBANK can claim to have truly recovered.
Taikun Gallente 20th Legion Sodalitas XX	Posted - 2009.12.26 15:04:00 - [88] Originally by: YouGotRipped Why is everyone pampering Kwint? Originally by: Scam Alert P.S. Scam Alert Alt talking because Ray is now a known scammer. They feel sorry for him. Enough said? Taikun A criminal is a person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation.
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2009.12.26 15:05:00 - [89] Originally by: Kwint Sommer Originally by: LaVista Vista The options are very very simple: Do you want the principle in 2010 with no interest, or do you want your principle with interest in 2012? That is a completely false dichotomy. COMPLETELY FALSE. Here's the real options: EBANK declares "what obligations?" and pays back principle in 2010 EBANK acknowledges it's full liabilities and does not return to solvency until 2012 EBANK still makes the same and can pay principle in 2010. For those who wish to take it they can cash out just the same then. As EBANK slowly recovers customers can cash out at any point getting a portion of first principle and then principle plus portions of accumulated interest. Come 2012 those who choose to wait get full repayment and having legitimately cleared the last of the debt EBANK can claim to have truly recovered. Do you not read the forums much? People have been screaming that they want their deposits back ASAP, the argument being that they can make a larger % ROI per month themselves as compared to EBANK.
Kapila Parthalan	Posted - 2009.12.26 15:12:00 - [90] Originally by: Kwint Sommer You're partially right, if EBANK liquidates the interest is pointless. However, if they "recover" they very much owe that interest to their investors. You can argue that by making the recovery take longer the interest does a disservice to the customers but I'm not arguing it be forced upon them. I'm arguing it simply be acknowledged by EBANK and included in account balances. If a customer would prefer to cash out once the principle is available they'll still get the same amount of money at the same time they would have if EBANK continues to pretend they no longer have to pay interest. The issue here is not what's best for the customers. The issue is EBANK trying to unilaterally default on their debt and then declare they've settled their accounts. It's not just bad business practice, it's a scam and I won't stand for it. I realize there needs to be some flexibility. I called for as much but for any negotiations to occur the starting point has to be EBANK acknowledging what they owe. A phased recovery, as previously suggested, in which EBANK allows customers to withdraw their principal without interest once they recover sufficiently and then to withdraw principal plus interest once fully recovered, seems like a reasonable solution to this issue. However, the liquidation withdrawal option, assuming it works as intended, allows depositors to make withdrawals at the payout percentage they choose. If EBANK acknowledges interest obligations, then depositors would have the right to withdraw once the payout reaches their original principal value, or they could make normal withdrawals once it reaches 100%. This option is even better than a two-phase approach in that depositors can withdraw at any payout percentage they choose. However, the liquidation withdrawal option has drawbacks, including the 5% fee and the fact that it is only available at select times. These help the bank, though, by preventing a run on the bank and improving solvency. In a two-phase approach, the bank's liquidity could be wiped out once they recover the original principal and allow withdrawals at that value. Originally by: LaVista Vista The options are very very simple: Do you want the principle in 2010 with no interest, or do you want your principle with interest in 2012? That decision should be left to the customer, not EBANK. Could you explain where those dates are from, or are they completely made up? At the current rate, given certain assumptions due to lack of information, EBANK recovers the principle in 42 months (2013) and never recovers the principle with interest.

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