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Verone
Gallente
Veto Corp
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Posted - 2009.12.25 16:58:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Verone on 25/12/2009 16:58:12
Account Hacking, RMT & Character Sales
Funnily enough, all these things are connected, and they're an issue.
In Eve Online your character name is your identity. Reputations are made and broken by the actions and omissions of a character. Eve's very basis and its most fundamental game play elements are surrounded by the idea of social networking.
CCP have even backed this sentiment up by the public release of their ôNew Edenö social networking concept at Fanfest 2009.
Whether or not you're a roleplayer, your character develops a reputation and persona due to how you play and the choices you make. In recent years this entire concept has been blurred from black and white, into grey because of character sales and trade that were made legal for in game currency by CCP.
Sadly other lines have also been blurred, and Eve has begun to take on the qualities of many mainstream MMOs. The sale of characters has been a thorn in the side of Eve Online for a long time, in its previous and current forms. Out of game wealth is now a factor more than ever for those who play, with members of the community with the financial basis out of game able to farm characters, before selling them on for multi-billion ISK profits.
It's become more and more of an issue in recent years, and even more recently its also become a tool for those who seek to harm the Eve community and its player base. It's become a tool for quick sources of ISK for those who supply ISK for RMT.
These people don't care about you, this game, its community or its success. They care about profit. When their accounts are banned because they're caught stealing a character to sell on for ISK to fuel their RMT, they simply create more and move on to the next victim.
They care about one thing, real world profit from selling ISK. They don't give a **** about who they're selling to or who they're ripping off.
Account hacking is on the rise, with thousands of us receiving bogus emails and links on a day to day basis for one reason; to capture our account details and steal characters to raise ISK for RMT profit.
Two members of my corporation have now suffered from this, along with countless cases I've heard of where good members of the community have had their characters or corporations cleaned out by these people looking to profit from RMT.
If people still feel the need to get ahead using their out of game wealth, they can always resort to selling PLEX available by redeeming GTC codes, but it's high time that character trading was stopped COMPLETELY by CCP.
The issue is spiralling out of control and causing more and more problems for the GM Team with countless petitions that could be stopped with a simple change in policy, allowing the GMs to focus on assisting the player base with real game issues.
I can guarantee that the vast majority of the community will more than likely be against me here, with only a few seeing the sense in what I'm saying.
In short, as a member of the player base I'm asking the CSM to raise the sale of characters as an issue with CCP at the next meeting in Iceland.
RMT is choking Eve Online, and character sales are a fast and risk free way for those who farm ISK to sell to produce more profit.
I'm sure that there'll be arguments about CCP not being responsible for account detail security, and users being responsible for the security of their own accounts but people need to realise that not everyone who plays Eve is completely technology minded and up to speed with 100% of current events.
There are more than enough tools available to build yourself an awesome character rather than resorting to buying one.
I expect to be flamed, but what else is new on the CSM's forum?
While I know that the majority will be against what I'm saying because so many people buy and sell characters, please, for the sake of Eve Online and its community, see sense, and support this thread.
>>> THE LIFE OF AN OUTLAW <<< |
Great Artista
Veto.
Veto Corp
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Posted - 2009.12.25 17:08:00 -
[2]
 Originally by: Verone
it's high time that character trading was stopped COMPLETELY by CCP.
Dug it out for tl;dr crowd.
This feature doesn't belong in eve.
Supported.
____
Rockets need a boost. CCP status:
[_] Told.
[x] Not told.
◕◡◕
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Spasmod
Veto.
Veto Corp
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Posted - 2009.12.25 17:21:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Great Artista
Originally by: Verone
it's high time that character trading was stopped COMPLETELY by CCP.
Dug it out for tl;dr crowd.
This feature doesn't belong in eve.
Supported.
I couldn't agree more. I fully support this thread 100%
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Michael Blackthorne
Veto Corp
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Posted - 2009.12.25 17:25:00 -
[4]
Aye, I was goin to buy myself a 2nd char but after all these...
Support this 100%
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Stardust Mina
Veto.
Veto Corp
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Posted - 2009.12.25 17:28:00 -
[5]
I agree to this!
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Korthan
Veto.
Veto Corp
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Posted - 2009.12.25 17:29:00 -
[6]
Even though I've been massively lucky in the past I still think that doing something about this would be the right way to go for CCP and would better protect the player base as a whole.
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Helen Highwater
Gallente
Ultrapolite Socialites
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.12.25 17:40:00 -
[7]
Let me start off by saying that I fully agree that security needs to be improved, I believe it's too easy for someone who has gained access to an account to strip it not only of ingame assets (which is bad enough) but also of the most valuable thing it has which is training time invested in characters.
Having said that, removing the legitimate trade in characters will simply drive it underground where CCP will have no control over it at all. I believe that to be a bad thing. Just like GTCs, having a sanctioned and (theoretically) secure channel to trade characters lessens the influence of shady RMT companies and provides another option for making money ingame for many players.
Regarding account security, there is only so much that CCP can do to protect you from yourself. Yes, I understand that many players are not security conscious and that people do dumb things like put their passwords into random webforms sent by email. Short of producing account dongles like Blizzard has for WoW though, I'm struggling to see how CCP can do more than the end user can to make the account secure. This isn't just CCP's problem to solve, so much revolves around online interactions these days that 'internet literacy' (including security basics) should be just as much a requirement for modern life as the ability to read and write. In other words, people need to be educated and to educate themselves and that isn't entirely CCP's responsibility.
Tl;dr: Yes to improved account security - confirmation mails when personal details change on the account page or when character transfers are requested etc. No to removing the character trade entirely. Users are responsible for their own security and they need to educate themselves rather than relying on others to fix the mess afterwards.
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Let's not and say we did. |
Artemis Dragmire
Veto.
Veto Corp
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Posted - 2009.12.25 17:53:00 -
[8]
Going to support this. Not because I was told to, but because I have always believed there is too much metagaming in EVE - Online.
I've grown accustomed to it over the years, have come to accept the need for alts, especially in my line of work, but I have trained my own alts, with my own money, and my own time.
I've always thought character selling/trading was right on the borderline of what should be allowed for metagaming. People should, at the very least, pay for and train their own alts, not purchase them from other people in some barely secure web forum.
Furthermore, with the recent increase in account hacking and the subsequent selling of the characters hacked, I think it's high time CCP looks into this issue, and shuts down this method for the ISK farmers to make income.
Also, without the character bazaar, CCP's job of administering the e-justice becomes a lot easier. Not just for ISK sellers, but for people trying to dodge a banhammer for other reasons as well.
For all the reasons mentioned above, and also for all the reasons Verone mentioned, I support this motion 100%.
Oh, and I'd just like to make something clear to those that don't get it:
You can have your account hacked and your character sold without ever having clicked a keylogger link on the EVE-O forums. There are many ways of getting keyloggers installed on your system, and not even running the most paranoid of firewalls/anti-virus/malware software will save you. It is far too easy to compromise a system and get this information.
I've taken college courses on the subject, and know HOW this is done, it's actually quite a simple task to compromise your average system. So don't go thinking "I'm immune because I'm not ******ed". It's just stupid talk.
Take matters into your own hands, players of EVE, support this motion, get CCP to realize that this is a huge issue that needs to be dealt with. And the first step is what is suggested above.
For everyone else:
Change your passwords, TODAY. How long has it been since you last changed em? Can you type your password from memory? It's probably been too long then.
Run a system scan or three, just to be sure.
Good luck, and Merry Christmas to CCP & The Players.
A giant lump of flaming dog poo for the dirty ISK farmers.
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Vincent Pryce
Veto Corp
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Posted - 2009.12.25 17:54:00 -
[9]
werd
--
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Selkie Lochlan
United Systems Navy
Zenith Affinity
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Posted - 2009.12.25 17:55:00 -
[10]
In support of this thread
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Irusu Kitaka
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Posted - 2009.12.25 17:57:00 -
[11]
I couldn't agree more. I fully support this thread 100%
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Kaileen Starsong
Veto.
Veto Corp
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Posted - 2009.12.25 18:06:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Helen Highwater
Having said that, removing the legitimate trade in characters will simply drive it underground where CCP will have no control over it at all. I believe that to be a bad thing. Just like GTCs, having a sanctioned and (theoretically) secure channel to trade characters lessens the influence of shady RMT companies and provides another option for making money ingame for many players.
Would reduce the scope of such trades greatly, anyway.
I do believe that forbidding character trade would be for good after all, although it's sort of a mixed case, really. Don't belive CSM would be able to do anything about this, even if all delegates wanted to. It's not even ingame issue or anything, it's the rules which are set by CCP...
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Kala Veijo
Veto Corp
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Posted - 2009.12.25 18:34:00 -
[13]
Hear hear
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Recusor
Veto.
Veto Corp
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Posted - 2009.12.25 18:36:00 -
[14]
Completely supported
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Jenna Sol
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Posted - 2009.12.25 18:54:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Jenna Sol on 25/12/2009 18:54:13
I support this idea.
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Killde
Veto.
Veto Corp
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Posted - 2009.12.25 18:59:00 -
[16]
I agree, it's getting a bit silly.
Will this drive the market underground? Most assuredly, however there will be much less people willing to get involved with this and it will increase the time significantly in regards to actually getting the character sold. This gives the real account owner much more time to notice that his account has been hacked and for CCP to do something about it.
Basically they hack an account, sell the characters, and then sell the isk for real cash before CCP comes along and resets the account and the isk. In the end the people who really lose here are the people that bought the ill gotten isk, as it'll get reset to the original owner once CCP takes action. The problem is the real culprit still gets away with the real cash. As long as we can stop them before the cash transaction takes place, they won't have an incentive to do this sort of crap.
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Rainsdon
Veto Corp
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Posted - 2009.12.25 19:17:00 -
[17]
Characters are made through dedication, time and of one's skill - not isk.
Supported.
_________________________________________________________
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ArmyOfMe
The Athiest Syndicate
Advocated Destruction
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Posted - 2009.12.25 19:42:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Killde
As long as we can stop them before the cash transaction takes place, they won't have an incentive to do this sort of crap.
If ppl started using their bains rather then being mindlless morons that click on every link they find it wouldnt be a issue at all.
i see no reason to support this, why punish everyone for the stupidity of the few.
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Kyoko Sakoda
Veto.
Veto Corp
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Posted - 2009.12.25 20:14:00 -
[19]
Going to have to say I agree.
___
Latest video:
War Has Come (720p) |
Veshta Yoshida
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.12.25 20:49:00 -
[20]
I can certainly see where you are coming from, being a high-profile player Verone, but is abolishing character trading as a whole really necessary to achieve what you are trying to do?
- Enhance account security with randomized keys, similar to what banks are doing.
- Add a highly visible entry in employment history with the day of trade.
- E-Mail verification several days prior to trade. Add same type of verification if registered email is changed through website.
- etc.
Removing character trades completely when there are plenty of ways to avoid/minimize ID theft still out there makes little sense to me.
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Verone
Veto Corp
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Posted - 2009.12.25 21:36:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Veshta Yoshida
I can certainly see where you are coming from, being a high-profile player Verone, but is abolishing character trading as a whole really necessary to achieve what you are trying to do?
I don't consider myself a high profile player at all.
I like to think I've done my part in assisting making Eve a little more enjoyable for the player base with all the EveTV and tournament stuff, and the guides and articles in E-ON, but in the end it's the people leading major power holding alliances that are the ones who're "high profile".
Originally by: Veshta Yoshida
Removing character trades completely when there are plenty of ways to avoid/minimize ID theft still out there makes little sense to me.
Remove the incentive, and you remove the problem.
Granted the situation will never be COMPLETELY resolved, but those who choose to trade characters do so at their own risk if CCP make the stand to remove character trading. You'll find that 99.9% of people won't bother due to the risk of losing years of work on character development.
Coupled with this, it removes the incentive for people to have their accounts ripped off to sell their characters, because there's no buyers sat there with tens of billions in easy money that RMT companies can sell on quickly for real life profit before CCP cotton on to to what's happened.
>>> THE LIFE OF AN OUTLAW <<< |
MellaRinn
Veto.
Veto Corp
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Posted - 2009.12.25 21:36:00 -
[22]
voicing my support. Haviong had my account hacked before, I'd have hated if Mella was sold.
✖Veto Corp. Director✖
Click the sig 4 my vids |
Pliskkenn
Veto Corp
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Posted - 2009.12.25 22:19:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Rainsdon
Characters are made through dedication, time and of one's skill - not isk.
Supported.
This is my belief too.
---
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Aphrodite Skripalle
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Posted - 2009.12.25 23:01:00 -
[24]
I dont agree with selling and buying chars but
i totally agree that the login procedure and the security of an account should be more safe.
Its way to easy to hack somones login and its impossible to make a windows system safe to prevent this. So ccp here has something to do to make the account safer.
They are ways to do that.
You can use sort of an asymmetric keypair, like pgp is doing that, which can make this login procedure "pretty good private" and even if a keylogger is logging the password the account cannot be completly hacked.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.12.26 00:00:00 -
[25]
Verone, I sympathise with your sentiments, but I fear the law of unintended consequences will come in to play here.
At the moment, with santioned, legitimate character sales, there is at least some recourse. Banning legal character sales will just drive more people in to the arms of the RMTers.
The answer is improved options account security, a "cooldown" period on character sales, and maybe even an option to 'lock' a character to an account for a specified period.
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Hroya
TerraNovae
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Posted - 2009.12.26 00:22:00 -
[26]
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Andreus LeHane
Mixed Metaphor
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Posted - 2009.12.26 00:59:00 -
[27]
Supporting this topic for my brosef, Verone 
-----
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voogru
Gallente
Massive Damage
MACHI MISCHIEF
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Posted - 2009.12.26 04:15:00 -
[28]
In my opinion, what they really need to do is secure the login system:
The primary email on the account should not be changed without GM intervention.
- The method of changing the primary email on the account needs to be made as secure as possible to prevent unauthorized changes.
Multiple (>=3) failed login attempts need to be forwarded to the primary account email with:
- 1. IP address of the person trying to login
- 2. Region (Country, State, City)
- 3. Partial password (half of it or so)
The last successful login should be displayed when logging in, including the IP address and region.
Players should be able to opt-in to a region lock to only allow an account to login from a particular region. Player can configure countries, states, cities that logins are allowed from.
Logins that violate these conditions would alert the account owner and deny the logon.
Any changes to the account (including character transfers) will require an email to be dispatched to the primary email to confirm the changes.
Disabling account transfers won't stop RMT or account hacking. Both of these were problems before CCP decided to put in the transfer system.
Account hacking can be fought by implementing new security measures.
RMT can be fought by pro-actively going after ISK sellers in the game and ruthlessly banning farming accounts before they have the ability to generate large amounts of ISK.
Hacking being on the rise is a sign to me that they are having a hard time generating billions of ISK from farming because CCP is going after them, so they are resorting to hacking to make up for the losses. Now that they are fighting RMT more it's probably time to fight the account hacking by implementing some security measures for the 21st century.
I don't support disabling character transfers because in my opinion, it won't fix anything by itself. If they just disable character transfers, they can still take the account and clean out the assets and ISK, leaving the player penniless. They still win.
Where as if they secure the logon systems more, it'll protect the accounts from their stuff being taken and prevent unauthorized character transfers.
But I see where you're coming from and I'm fairly sure your overall goal is, less hacked accounts.
Hate Farmers? Click Here |
Kuga Kita
Veto Corp
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Posted - 2009.12.26 04:34:00 -
[29]
I'll be the Veto. outcast and go against what seems to be the grain here. hah
I've made for too much isk over the last 5 years from selling off old toons I get tired of/have no use for to endorse this.
However. If this thread were simply about beefing up security in some way. Longer passwords, req of more complex passwords, log in forms that Firefox/IE can't retain credentials for, I would fully endorse it.
<3 to the fascist dictator and those in the family that have recently had accounts hacked. I just don't see quite eye to eye with many regarding this.
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Jhonen Senraedi
Minmatar
Dopehead Industries
Republic Alliance
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Posted - 2009.12.26 10:47:00 -
[30]
Agree with this...
so...
Signed
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Gontarski
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2009.12.26 12:19:00 -
[31]
Supported, good arguments were put forward.
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LeToniarge
Veto.
Veto Corp
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Posted - 2009.12.26 19:55:00 -
[32]
Pretty obvious that account hacking is on the rise. Verone's idea at least represents a soft counter to the BS that's been taking place regarding this issue, which is definitely better than nothing. Hopefully some sort of solution will come out of this if nothing else, and hopefully the devs realize what's going on and do something to correct it.
I have made use of the character sale program before and in theory it's nice, but I'm not thrilled at the thought of my personal information being hacked over an online video game just so someone can make a few bucks.
I would prefer having account security over the ability to make some extra isk on the side or buy an alt any-day.
Thread has my support.
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Halaxi
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.12.27 00:31:00 -
[33]
I have mixed support for this.
On the one hand, character trading alows people new to eve to get a catch up on the learning cliff, and yes, I am sure there are a few bitter vets out there who believe that new players should go thru the same often toturous few months before they get to any stage of confidence, but I personally believe that the ability to buy an already experienced character is something that will attract and retain new players. So no, this feature should not go.
On the flip side, there does need to be stricter measures in place to counter the proliferation of hacked character sales.
Hal.
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cigi
Veto.
Veto Corp
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Posted - 2009.12.27 16:35:00 -
[34]
Totally agree
cigi
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Mutnin
Amarr
Veto Corp
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Posted - 2009.12.27 18:22:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Mutnin on 27/12/2009 18:26:50
I agree and disagree with the suggestions here. First off I 100% agree that character sales need to be more secure. I've done two now myself and it's odd for me to say this, but I really did think it was almost too fast and too easy. This makes it very easy for these hackers to steal toons from their rightful owners.
I also agree that your reputation and persona, is wrapped up in your character. Even though I've bought a toon before, it does bug me a bit that it can be so easy to wash your hands of one character and put your self in another with no real draw backs.
A) I'll state out a few issues I see with the current proposal and arguments for the removal of Character Sales.
1) Hacking of accounts, was going on long before this current rise in attacks. I myself had an account hacked but luckily the only thing they did was change the training que and I received the account back after about a week or so. I was lucky and had no real assets on that account.
Stopping Character Sales, will not stop the hacking as there isn't much CCP can do to stop someone Else's computer from being violated. Adding to this the hacker has access to the persons computer which will allow him to check e-mail accounts and so on in many cases.
2) If you look at any other MMO, they all have these same problems as far as I know. If people can't sell their toon in a legitimate way, they will sell them via a black market which will likely be controlled by the very hackers we are dealing with today.
Lets not forget, RMT and toon sales is a very big business, when you figure these groups are doing this very thing to many other games and not just EVE. These guys are making Millions of dollars a year doing this stuff which means they wont stop just because CCP bans Character Sales, it will just move even further underground and pull the player base to them.
Right now even though it's not as secure as it "should" be, at the very least CCP has control of the market on the sales. I'd much rather them have control and work on making things more secure than just ban it and turn the entire market over to the hackers and RMT'ers.
B) Now I'll toss in a few solutions that I think might help this proposal. I do think something needs to be done for the various reasons many have posted already.
1) I think we shouldn't actually be able to simply sell the "reputation and persona" as Verone has mentioned. I see this as the major draw back in Character Sales. Not to mention 90% of the character's for sale have crappy names.
The solution to this, would be that only the "skill set" should be sold. This would mean you could still effectively sell the time you have invested but not your actual toon. It would also be safer because if theft did occur, the toon would be in place and only require the skill sheet to be replaced.
Doing a "skill sheet" transfer, would mean each toon created would remain in the original owners hands, until he decided to terminate that toon. This would mean that you would keep your own history and others simply couldn't just buy another players game history.
This would mean that the market could still stay alive and players that haven't been in game since beta could still get access to decent skill sets if they could afford them.
There are of course advantages and disadvantages to what I've suggested, but even from a RP view, it should be more reasonable to do than actually buying the entire toon.
I will add to this that as a early 09 player and noob to the game, the training time is very discouraging at times. I can't do anything to make my toon train faster other than skills and implants. Even that is really not enough when you look at how long a basic skill plan can be.
Meanwhile I do make enough ISK, that I can afford to buy a older toon. There are of course many like me which means the market will always be there. Because of this I really think CCP is doing the right thing by controlling it.
We just need it to be safer..
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Spasmod
Veto.
Veto Corp
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Posted - 2009.12.27 19:04:00 -
[36]
One thing did cross my mind, it's certainly not a solution to the problem but could certainly ease the burden on CCP and the targeted original account holder.
I'm wondering how practical it would be for CCP to offer those of us who have no intention of selling our characters the option of 'Opting in' to a minimum period of 'Non Transfer' maybe 3 or 6 months at a time.
While admittedly the hacked characters assets would still be at risk, there would be some form of comfort in the fact that the 'Non transferable' character can not be sold.
I'm just thinking out loud really 
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Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2009.12.28 01:10:00 -
[37]
The problem is account hacking and specifically your members falling for real obvious real life scams via email or whatever. Your solution is to get rid of character transfers. That doesn't solve the problem. If someone "hacks" you account and uses the character for RMT and gets banned your character is just as gone and you'll never get it back.
What would solve the problem is a secure method of trading characters. Other MMOs have it.
You are way off because this happened to people you know. People want to do character transfers and will do so no matter what. You want all the rules changed now that if affected you, get real.
Originally by: Jim Raynor
EVE needs danger, EVE needs risks, EVE needs combat, even piracy, without these things, the game stagnates to a trivial game centering around bloating your wallet with no purpose. |
Reimei Kaminamida
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Posted - 2009.12.28 03:09:00 -
[38]
In short, I agree. More security for us is better.
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Jared Ulfsuun
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Posted - 2009.12.28 14:06:00 -
[39]
Not supported. Removing the legit channel will only take character sales underground.
Other ways to improve the situation:
* Lock all characters from resale by default. Default lock 24h, can be increased upto a month by the account owner. (Long-term account intrusion needed for character resale.)
* Prominently display last login time & ip on login, and make personal login history easy to view. (Making it easier for players to detect intrusions.)
* Email notifications for character unlocks, etc. Also make it possible to subscribe to a daily/weekly account activity summary. (Making it possible to notice intrusion when you are not actively playing for an extended perior.)
Possibly also:
* Display character sale in employment history -- call it Personality Restructuring? Alternatively, make it visible in API checks. (Allows better corp security, reduces metagaming issues.)
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mazzilliu
Caldari
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.12.28 16:06:00 -
[40]
banning character sales is a really weird solution to account hacking because it doesnt address the actual problem and it causes a ton of other problems. i dont know why you would think this is any sort of good change.
1. it takes away a revenue stream from CCP and puts it back in the hands of the black market(this alone will make it not happen)
2. doesnt address the other consequences of account hacking(empty corp, personal hangars, deleted characters, banned accounts)
3. makes things overall less safe for players now that a service for which there is a demand is now in the hands of the black market. character and account scams will be back.
i dont see any good thing coming from banning character sales or transfers. Some sort of protection to prevent hacked character sales would be best- outright bans, no.
SELLING MY POWERS. 1 PLEX FOR 1 ISSUE |
Corian Teranos
Caldari
Critical Mass Inc.
Symbiogenesis
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Posted - 2009.12.28 16:53:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Corian Teranos on 28/12/2009 16:56:11
not supported only idiots have their accounts hacked.
i have recieved these emails too and frankly i have never actually fallen for it. tell me how anyone who is not a complete idiot can fail to notice that when the url is spelled incorrectly or ends in some strange domain like .it or .tk it is clearly not the official website. also for my password i use latin characters these are easily entered on any standard keyboard by holding alt and typing the 4 digit ascii code before releasing the alt key not only do most people use alphaneumeric passwords but they make them way too simple. simply adding non english characters will make your account unhackable as most brute force engines and keyloggers only support alphaneumeric and special characters not latin and forign symbols. also using a simple free antivirus such as avira will detect and neutralize about 90% of active keyloggers out there
:Its all fun and games untill your logistics guy tries passive tanking his raven: |
RuleoftheBone
The Littlest Hobos
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2009.12.29 12:50:00 -
[42]
Supported.
Play what ya brung.
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Aveng3X
Octavian Vanguard
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2009.12.29 20:41:00 -
[43]
At the very least, CCP needs to highlight and publicise the risks and consequences, in game and out of game, of character trading. The notice on the cigarette packet, if you will.
/signed
__________________________
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Kiri Serrensun
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Posted - 2009.12.30 01:00:00 -
[44]
Originally by: mazzilliu
i dont see any good thing coming from banning character sales or transfers. Some sort of protection to prevent hacked character sales would be best- outright bans, no.
Perhaps among other things, the ability to "lock" a character, and a two-week delay to unlock them for sale or deletion. After all, people seldom sell a character on the spur of the moment.
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TeaDaze
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Posted - 2009.12.30 18:22:00 -
[45]
Edited by: TeaDaze on 30/12/2009 18:26:40
I agree that something needs to be done, but stopping character transfers I don't feel is the correct solution.
The issue is how to ensure that the owner of the Account is agreeing to transfer the character. At the moment this is done simply by username, password and also the credit card used to provide the transfer.
The first part is easily circumvented by various techniques (keylogers, phishing, hacking forums where people have the same username and password as their game account) etc.
The Second part is circumvented by using a stolen credit card.
So the current attack will be something like the following (assuming CCP check the address on the account with that of the credit card).
- Obtain login details via email scam etc
- Change the Account's user details to match the stolen credit card details and the email address
- Strip any assets worth selling by repeatedly undocking and ejecting so an alt can board (watch for people doing this and report them asap).
- Post a character sale thread
- Sell the character paying with the stolen credit card
- Launder the isk
I suggest that the character transfer system be modified asap to do something like the following.
- Lock all transfers by default
- To unlock a Character you must confirm via an email link
- Changing email address locks the transfers for 3 months (for example), emails the old address to say that it was changed and flags the Account to the GMs. The old address will also remain on the account and be notified of changes until the 3 months are up or an email address change confirmation is clicked.
- Changing account owner, address or billing details should send a notification to the email address(es) assigned to the account and also flag the account in some way
This is just a quick look and I might have missed something out. Hopefully this would allow transfers to be initiated by legitimate parties but make it very hard to do so maliciously. There might be things to tweak a bit such as sending confirmations more than once in case the email doesn't get though but that is still better than the current system.
I am aware however that more official emails from CCP with links to click might have the undesirable effect of allowing scammers to send something similar. Perhaps no link but instructions to type eveonline.com into their browser and cut and paste a key into a special page there.
CCP also need to retain logs related to people ejecting from ships and track who is taking them to facilitate recovery of assets from hacked accounts.
One final thing.
CCP should run a query over the user database looking for any accounts where the account name is the same as a character on that account. Those (active) people should be contacted and given the option to have their account login renamed to something else.
The first step in avoiding these kinds of scams is to have a different account name from your character. If you see an email addressed to CharName not AccountName then you might be more suspicious (though I believe CCP send out emails with the CharName instead for special reactivation offers - bad CCP  )
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Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
Gentlemen's Club
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Posted - 2009.12.30 22:33:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Helen Highwater
... removing the legitimate trade in characters will simply drive it underground where CCP will have no control over it at all. I believe that to be a bad thing.
This.
Originally by: Helen Highwater
Users are responsible for their own security and they need to educate themselves rather than relying on others to fix the mess afterwards.
And this.
Welcome to the internets. Use wisely.
Fix Local |
Voddick
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Posted - 2009.12.30 23:50:00 -
[47]
I only support stronger account security and character trading security.
All the great points have already been spelled out in detail.
A really big fan of an entry of ôCharacter Saleö being made in the employment history. Not just importing the skill set. People need to know if a character was bought. With the skill set idea, overtime it would just look like you created him.
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Yourdoom
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Posted - 2009.12.31 12:24:00 -
[48]
you know you are responsable for your own computer security.
If a hacker/cracker got in wtf do you want from ccp ?
You are NOT paying ccp to do security in your computer. Most security systems ccp would employ would be simple defeated by an atacker that gained remote access to your computer. Plain and simple. Token based auth would be a way but clumbersome and not cost effective. Maybe an option for it for people that desire it would be welcome.
As far as char trades, in every major MMO there is the black market account trading. And along with it comes alot of legal issues and so on and so forth. Problems for users and for developers. CCP made a bold and smart move by allowing char trades and givem the years needed to develop a char i say it's one of their best moves.
removing char trades will do nothing to help security. it will be only replaced by account trading and stealing for RMT traders , and will just only fend off players that wants to enjoy the game a bit more w/o playing it for 4 years.
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Aineko Macx
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Posted - 2009.12.31 18:38:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Aineko Macx on 31/12/2009 18:41:24
Agreeing with Helen, Malcanis, Mazz(!), Tea and others that are against the shutting down of char sales, but pro increased account security. Sorry Verone, your proposal does not fix the problem in any way.
EDIT: Shameless plug to an account security proposal.
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Qing Jao
Salvation Army.
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Posted - 2010.01.01 20:40:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Qing Jao on 01/01/2010 20:45:44
/Supported,
The people who've disagreed with this thread are (fill in rude comment here) dumb!. If anyone knew just how easy it is to have your account stolen you'd cry and beg CCP to give you your character(s) back.
Enlisted within the Air Force as a "Computer Systems Operations Apprentice" You'd be surprised what goes on in the cyber world.
I'm sorry to say but when someone creates a phishing liked website and or uses DNS Spoofing you can't catch it at the very least. Those who are disagreeing just think it's funny because it happened to someone else and not themselves.
When it happens to you I'll be sure to laugh and point you to this thread.
Quote:
Verone - Removing character transfers would only cause more havoc within the trade/character transfers. If you remove a secure way to move characters more characters would start getting stolen cause there's always dishonest people who wont hold up on there end.
My Solution
CCP rewrites there EULA/TOS and CLEARLY STATES anyone who petitions there character was hacked/stolen and shows viable proof receives there character back and the person who used the credit card is banned and is NOT given a refund.
I'd suggest maybe making a secret code or something that the account owner has to remember/written down so if his account is ever stolen he can give that to CCP. Another way is when an account is activated, your given a code just like before but this time its more like Steam.
I had my Steam account stolen one year and petitioned it to Valve. They request my CD-Key thats posted on the card that comes in the box, and they wanted a picture of it as well.
Edit: Valve/Steam also wanted me to write my petitions ID # on the CD-Key Card. forgot about that part.
Unless the person that stole your account comes into your house theres NO reason why CCP can't identify you and give you your character back and give the person who stole it an ass kicking.
Thanks for your time,
Qing Jao
Salvation Army.
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Salvation Army. - Doing The Most Good |
Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2010.01.01 21:05:00 -
[51]
OP has a problem constructing a logical argument.
Stopping character trading is not going to stop RMT or account hacking. The two issues are not connected. Certainly, if your account gets hacked they can take your character - but if you take away character trading they can just biomass the character too can't they?
To address the single issue of account hacking, CCP simply needs to implement multifactor authentication - ie: an authenticator like Blizzard uses for World of Warcraft. I use the software authenticator on my iPhone, there's one extra step when logging in (account name, password, authenticator code), and I have the security that someone has to know my account name & password, and have my iPhone in their hot little hands, in order to break into my account.
Character trading and RMT are entirely separate issues to account hacking. Deal with them separately.
I support this discussion, but the OPs argument went off the rails a little. Please construct a logical argument and at least provide some reasoning behind your statement that removing character trading will in any way address the issues of RMT & account hacking.
[Aussie players: join channel ANZAC] |
Aineko Macx
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Posted - 2010.01.01 21:19:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Qing Jao
Those who are disagreeing just think it's funny because it happened to someone else and not themselves.
You clearly haven't read what the majority of non-supporters has written.
Originally by: Mara Rinn
OP has a problem constructing a logical argument.
Stopping character trading is not going to stop RMT or account hacking. The two issues are not connected.
Yep. Verone, you're making the pirates look bad!
Quote:
Certainly, if your account gets hacked they can take your character - but if you take away character trading they can just biomass the character too can't they?
Don't forget the assets they can turn into isk for RMT.
Quote:
To address the single issue of account hacking, CCP simply needs to implement multifactor authentication
Full ack. Altho this is a completely different proposal than OP...
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Verone
Gallente
Veto Corp
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Posted - 2010.01.02 19:31:00 -
[53]
Another well known Eve player is struck down by this rediculous system : http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1243725
It's time to act, people are getting shafted left right and centre for no justifiable reason.
>>> THE LIFE OF AN OUTLAW <<< |
Oscardoodle
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Posted - 2010.01.02 21:05:00 -
[54]
You know, I've bought and sold some characters, ade some good isk, but i've also been burned by this issue so even though it means a loss of a bloody-ton of isk for me, I support it.
Being banned once for buying a character is really enough.
I apologize for having one of those sigs...Sorry. |
Magnus Nordir
Nordir Industries
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Posted - 2010.01.02 21:36:00 -
[55]
Yes.
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Only those who surrender are lost |
Drykor
Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2010.01.02 22:09:00 -
[56]
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Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
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Posted - 2010.01.02 22:34:00 -
[57]
Edited by: Herschel Yamamoto on 02/01/2010 22:36:27
I think this proposal is a great example of the old metaphor about cutting off your nose to spite your face. Trying to harm RMTers by banning legitimate sales of characters is like trying to harm rum-runners by banning legitimate sales of alcohol. How well do prohibitions of things people want ever work out?
One of the things CCP has done with this game that is genuinely intelligent is to cut the legs out from under the eBay crowd by letting you trade cash for items and characters in a way that does not let anyone try to earn a profit off of their game. People are going to buy these things, whether you allow it or not. Banning it won't stop it from happening, it'll just force more people into using sketchier means of it that leave them open to scams, and help RMTers.
Yes, sometimes people steal an account and sell the characters. Obviously, this is a problem that ought to be dealt with. But trying to ban character sales because they are occasionally used wrongly is a ****** Ate Sugar argument. It's absurd on its face. This won't do what you're trying to do, it'll just inconvenience a lot of people who have done nothing wrong, and help the people you're trying to hurt. This is a bad idea.
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Marko Riva
Adamant Inc.
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Posted - 2010.01.03 00:48:00 -
[58]
The whole character trading is BS, I understand that it's a good thing for CCP as it creates income for older players and gives newer players a leg up but for the game and the whole idea of a long term MMO where your actions makes you character it's just bad. I have several high level sp chars who's account I simply closed but wouldn't THINK of selling, even though I'll never use them again.
It's not neccesarily linked to RMT but the whole "semi-direct isk for money", CCP deliberately removing the ingame-outgame boundaries and character trades is just BULLCRAP. CCP should stop giving in to more and more of this ****, what's next "buy 2 plex and you can redeem a special ship that gives you +5 to strength"?
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I think, therefore I'm single.
New projectile damage PDF
Alliance creation service |
Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
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Posted - 2010.01.03 04:09:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Marko Riva
The whole character trading is BS, I understand that it's a good thing for CCP as it creates income for older players and gives newer players a leg up but for the game and the whole idea of a long term MMO where your actions makes you character it's just bad. I have several high level sp chars who's account I simply closed but wouldn't THINK of selling, even though I'll never use them again.
It's not neccesarily linked to RMT but the whole "semi-direct isk for money", CCP deliberately removing the ingame-outgame boundaries and character trades is just BULLCRAP. CCP should stop giving in to more and more of this ****, what's next "buy 2 plex and you can redeem a special ship that gives you +5 to strength"?
You know what the single most common complaint about Eve I hear from non-players is? "You mean I can never catch up to an old player? That sucks!". Character trade is the solution to this. If you prefer your characters not be sold, you don't have to sell them - I had a corpmate who biomassed his two best characters instead of selling them when he quit playing(he wanted to stop himself from coming back), because he didn't think 20 bil in the hands of his friends was worth parting with the characters he had created. That was his choice, and I respected it. But if he hadn't cared, what would have been wrong with him passing them along to someone who could have used them?
Also, it's hardly just profit for old players. If there's someone in my corp who wants to buy isk over the long term, the way I tell them to do it is to make 51-day trial accounts, build a Hulk pilot, sell it on day 50, then start again with another account. Generally it's an old player buying it, and giving a new player money.
In any case, PLEX/character sales are a perfectly reasonable form of trade, and CCP has managed to get all the benefits of them without most of the drawbacks of uncontrolled RMT. It's a brilliant system, and I am completely against it being neutered just because it offends your sensibilities.
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Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
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Posted - 2010.01.03 12:15:00 -
[60]
Not supported.
I think there are workable compromises which would allow legitimate character sales to take place while still excluding account hackers. They have only a relatively short space of time to arrange a character sale before a petition goes through and a stolen account is frozen.
For example, how about adding an account-wide 'no character transfers for the next X months' option, with no means of cancelling once set? This is only 1 idea - there must be other possibilities.
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34.4:1 mineral compression |
Dealer bob
Gallente
Garoun Investment Bank
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Posted - 2010.01.03 12:47:00 -
[61]
Quote:
Originally by: RainsdonCharacters are made through dedication, time and of one's skill - not isk.
Supported.
agreed. just abandon the character sales. screw you people that sell and buy chars to amass your isk in game. some of us EARN it by playing the game.
RMT via char transfers will do serious harm. much more so than character transfers been dragged ( underground ) as someone said. simple thing is this.
so many people are only trading chars etc simply because ccp is making it so damn easy & legal to do.
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Sokratesz
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Posted - 2010.01.03 13:12:00 -
[62]
Outright stopping character sales would be a doubtful move and I'm unsure of the exact implications.
But nonetheless, something needs to be done.
When will TQ hit the 100K PCU mark? Place a bet! |
Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
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Posted - 2010.01.03 14:50:00 -
[63]
Supported
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Verone
Gallente
Veto Corp
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Posted - 2010.01.03 19:09:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Sokratesz
Outright stopping character sales would be a doubtful move and I'm unsure of the exact implications.
But nonetheless, something needs to be done.
Thank you for the support.
Far too many people are being struck down with scams, hacking, banning with no justification and character rip-off schemes.
>>> THE LIFE OF AN OUTLAW <<< |
Bel'shamharoth
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Posted - 2010.01.03 19:17:00 -
[65]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm not a fig plucker or a fig plucker's son, but I'll pluck figs till the fig plucking's done. |
Sokratesz
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Posted - 2010.01.03 21:45:00 -
[66]
You can find some discussion about this in the minutes of today's CSM meeting as soon as they're posted. We didn't have the material or time to formulate an all-in solution but we will be taking this to CCP.
When will TQ hit the 100K PCU mark? Place a bet! |
Jennifer Celeste
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Posted - 2010.01.04 00:38:00 -
[67]
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Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
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Posted - 2010.01.04 04:18:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Verone
Originally by: Sokratesz
Outright stopping character sales would be a doubtful move and I'm unsure of the exact implications.
But nonetheless, something needs to be done.
Thank you for the support.
Far too many people are being struck down with scams, hacking, banning with no justification and character rip-off schemes.
Then why not come up with a plan to stop the scammers and hackers, instead of ruining it for the legitimate 99%?
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Sokratesz
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Posted - 2010.01.04 09:12:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Then why not come up with a plan to stop the scammers and hackers, instead of ruining it for the legitimate 99%?
Don't forget that we find ourselves in a very privileged position, being able to trade characters and real money for in-game valuta. I am sure that I;m not the first to say that without these two mechanisms, eve would be a different and possibly better game.
When will TQ hit the 100K PCU mark? Place a bet! |
Aineko Macx
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Posted - 2010.01.04 11:52:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Sokratesz
Outright stopping character sales would be a doubtful move and I'm unsure of the exact implications.
You know... if you disagree with the proposed change, you shouldn't support it, even more so if you propose a different one 
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Verone
Gallente
Veto Corp
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Posted - 2010.01.04 17:46:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Sokratesz
Don't forget that we find ourselves in a very privileged position, being able to trade characters and real money for in-game valuta. I am sure that I;m not the first to say that without these two mechanisms, eve would be a different and possibly better game.
It's nice to see there's someone on the CSM who's likeminded.
>>> THE LIFE OF AN OUTLAW <<< |
Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
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Posted - 2010.01.04 18:32:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Sokratesz
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Then why not come up with a plan to stop the scammers and hackers, instead of ruining it for the legitimate 99%?
Don't forget that we find ourselves in a very privileged position, being able to trade characters and real money for in-game valuta. I am sure that I;m not the first to say that without these two mechanisms, eve would be a different and possibly better game.
No, I'm sure you're not the first to say it. Doesn't change the fact that I completely disagree, or the fact that CCP disagrees as well.
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Sokratesz
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Posted - 2010.01.04 19:37:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Originally by: Sokratesz
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Then why not come up with a plan to stop the scammers and hackers, instead of ruining it for the legitimate 99%?
Don't forget that we find ourselves in a very privileged position, being able to trade characters and real money for in-game valuta. I am sure that I;m not the first to say that without these two mechanisms, eve would be a different and possibly better game.
No, I'm sure you're not the first to say it. Doesn't change the fact that I completely disagree, or the fact that CCP disagrees as well.
You only disagree with the last two words of my statement then.
I always have and always be against the sillyness that is GTC->ISK, and in that same way, ISK->CHARS is exactly the same, namely buying your way into a game so that skill doesn't matter any more.
I'm proud to say I'm a self made man, I own a titan, a mothership and four characters (three trained up from scratch) and I did all that without spending a single euro on anything other than subscription and a fanfest trip, and there are many people who are many times richer than I am because they are smarter or can spend more time. So the mechanisms aren't needed by any means, people do fine without them.
When will TQ hit the 100K PCU mark? Place a bet! |
Sokratesz
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Posted - 2010.01.04 19:40:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Aineko Macx
Originally by: Sokratesz
Outright stopping character sales would be a doubtful move and I'm unsure of the exact implications.
You know... if you disagree with the proposed change, you shouldn't support it, even more so if you propose a different one
Amendments can be made before it's brought up. It's not like CCP or the CSM make any decisions based off the exact wording of a request in a forum thread.
When will TQ hit the 100K PCU mark? Place a bet! |
Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
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Posted - 2010.01.04 22:55:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Sokratesz
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Originally by: Sokratesz
Don't forget that we find ourselves in a very privileged position, being able to trade characters and real money for in-game valuta. I am sure that I;m not the first to say that without these two mechanisms, eve would be a different and possibly better game.
No, I'm sure you're not the first to say it. Doesn't change the fact that I completely disagree, or the fact that CCP disagrees as well.
You only disagree with the last two words of my statement then.
I always have and always be against the sillyness that is GTC->ISK, and in that same way, ISK->CHARS is exactly the same, namely buying your way into a game so that skill doesn't matter any more.
I'm proud to say I'm a self made man, I own a titan, a mothership and four characters (three trained up from scratch) and I did all that without spending a single euro on anything other than subscription and a fanfest trip, and there are many people who are many times richer than I am because they are smarter or can spend more time. So the mechanisms aren't needed by any means, people do fine without them.
Well yeah, I only disagree with the last two words, but that's the core of your statement. USD(or EUR, if that's your thing) -> ISK trade is brilliant - if it wasn't for the inevitability of abuse(macroing, exploits, etc.), I'd favour allowing unfettered two-way trade. I'd love to see a proper forex market in fictional currencies, it'd make my inner economist very happy.
And yes, people can do without them. I've never bought isk(though I do sell it, I fund two accounts through PLEX), nor have I ever traded characters. Most of the ultra-rich players I know are in the same boat with the exception of maybe the odd sale of an extraneous industry alt. But for people with more money than time, it's great. They can get what they need to play and outsource the grinding to some cultural studies major with more time than money. It's win-win, and instead of providing an incentive to macro, it cuts the knees out from under people who want to make a RL living by being an Eve miner.
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nirana
Destructive Influence
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Posted - 2010.01.10 23:02:00 -
[76]
please !
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