blah blah blah

If you want to pull of a grand heist, you shouldn't tell anyone you just pulled off a grand heist.

I they didn't tell anyone, then it would be a heist. By telling everyone about it, was just emergent gameplay.

Not really... Was the boomerang exploit emergent gameplay? How about that exploit where you webbed freighters as they were trying to insta-warp from stations? Both were clever manipulations of the game, but were still exploits.

People warned CCP about the possibility of this before the patch went live. CCP didn't listen. Why is CCP punishing people for pointing out that they didn't listen?

Not really... Was the boomerang exploit emergent gameplay? How about that exploit where you webbed freighters as they were trying to insta-warp from stations? Both were clever manipulations of the game, but were still exploits.

You do know Sandboxes have walls right? This is a Sandbox not a desert.

People warned CCP about the possibility of this before the patch went live. CCP didn't listen. Why is CCP punishing people for pointing out that they didn't listen?

Sandboxes have always had boundaries, otherwise they would just be beaches or deserts or something.

Excessive tears by Goon alts?


Exploit: to utilize, especially for profit; turn to practical account: to exploit a business opportunity.

If this is too hard to understand, perhaps I can find a kiddie's dictionary to link for you?

Sandboxes have always had boundaries, otherwise they would just be beaches or deserts or something.

The mechanic still exists, then mechanic itself was totally intended. It was the market manipulation of various items that let the guys do what they did.

When you get a result from your actions and say "Wow I bet CCP didn't indend THAT", you are probably right. People realize when they are exploiting, and cry foul when called on it.

CCP Xhagen says. "Technically speaking, they were not doing anything that was forbidden

June 22, 2012 Never forget.

The death of the sandbox came as innocuously as it began. A group of enterprising individuals who examine patch notes and run spreadsheets and formulas found a way to get ahead of a poorly implemented feature on an upcoming patch. The Viking Gods of CCP hf saw fit to sacrifice innovation upon the altar of expediency.

Walls slammed into place and bars were erected. "You may go this far and no further," was the message. This bold and beautiful universe we live in became much smaller.

June 22, 2012 Never forget.

The mechanic still exists, then mechanic itself was totally intended. It was the market manipulation of various items that let the guys do what they did.

if market manipulation is an exploit, then well, holy crapballs batman....

Here's the thing though, with the Sandbox. The whole idea behind EVE is Risk vs. Reward. There was no risk (as they were blowing up their own alts) and there was unlimited rewards. What about that isn't broken? Not only that, but seriously Goons...you posted about your heist on GD, and then get pissed when CCP wises up? You don't rob a bank, then head to the police and tell them EXACTLY how you bypassed the security...and then expect to get away with it, do you?

Why wouldn't they?
Capsuleers have noone to fear, except partialy Concorde, but Concorde does not police market pvp, only agression against others in high sec space.

Factions do their battles in low sec, a free for all zone.
IF there was foul play, let concorde judge this, and adjust security standings therafter to prevent them from entering high sec space.


i urge you all to read the novell by CCP called Empyrian Age.
This sort of gameplay is what CCP themselves front as the posibilities of EVE.


And no risk vs reward??
When one invest all the isk one have, is that not a risk?

never forget

because this is TOTALLY like that last event that everyone loves to say they won't forget. Good job invalidating a terrible event by equating it to a debacle in a VIDEO GAME.

because this is TOTALLY like that last event that everyone loves to say they won't forget. Good job invalidating a terrible event by equating it to a debacle in a VIDEO GAME.

Sandboxes have always had boundaries, otherwise they would just be beaches or deserts or something.

Internet spaceships is serious business.

In before The L0ck.

EVE Is real MAAAAAN! I was there MAAAAN! Well, according that video CCP made anyway.

Not really... Was the boomerang exploit emergent gameplay? How about that exploit where you webbed freighters as they were trying to insta-warp from stations? Both were clever manipulations of the game, but were still exploits.

Did people who used it have their assets seized without warning?

The best way I've seen this summarized was on another website. The person said (paraphrasing):

People warned CCP about the possibility of this before the patch went live. CCP didn't listen. Why is CCP punishing people for pointing out that they didn't listen?

There is a possibility that i might go on a killing spree, i've warned you now. Once i get a few kills and the police catches me i expect the judge to let me go free because....well, i warned ahead.

I agree - and Eve has tons of walls - the thing however is that if CCP mess a mechanic up (i.e. they set the walls wrong), people can and will exploit it. CCP then may realize it isn't working as they meant it to work and may label it an exploit.

Everyone using the mechanic after that should have the assets and isk they made that way removed - fine. Up to the point they labeled it an exploit, it's a game mechanic.

Anyone remember the ferrogel incident? CCP have been made aware of the exploit several times and never fixed it - then, they suddenly realize it and punish people for their own mistake and failure to read bug reports... Now that obviously was a bug, but the mechanic was there, was reported and was neither fixed or labeled an expoit for ages, then all of a sudden CCP swings the banhammer for their own shortcomings.

What about the margin trading scam? That's more exploitative of weird game mechanics than what goons did here - will CCP suddenly decide it's an exploit after years of leaving it untouched and seize isk retroactively?

Some words have more than one definition depending on the context.

When something sounds too good to be true, it usually is. Is this not a saying that is part of the Eve mantras?

Not quite. If there were a new murder law coming down the pipes, and the details were released ahead of time, and you warned the legislature of a gaping hole in the law, then when it came into effect, you waltzed through that gaping hole on a killing spree, the fact that you warned them ahead of time would be beside the point, since in RL, there's a constitutional ban on Ex Post Facto laws. But warning them ahead of time would shift a lot of moral blame onto the legislature.

Murder is illegal now. What the Jewbal did wasn't illegal when they did it.

CCP Xhagen says. "Technically speaking, they were not doing anything that was forbidden

June 22, 2012 Never forget.

The death of the sandbox came as innocuously as it began. A group of enterprising individuals who examine patch notes and run spreadsheets and formulas found a way to get ahead of a poorly implemented feature on an upcoming patch. The Viking Gods of CCP hf saw fit to sacrifice innovation upon the altar of expediency.

Walls slammed into place and bars were erected. "You may go this far and no further," was the message. This bold and beautiful universe we live in became much smaller.

June 22, 2012 Never forget.

If it wasn't illegal in the first place then why did they even warn ccp ?

People do that because they are afraid of the consequences that their future actions may bring....

You can polish what they did however you like, in the end the fact is that they took advantage of a loophole that wasn't intended to be used like that in the first place.


Example: If some patch gave an extra 0 by mistake to a certain module and only a couple people knew about it and they proceed to abuse that advantage knowing FULL WELL that the "extra 0" is in no way intended by the developers then its an exploit.



Kinda like "Hmmm, that can't be right, but i'll go ahead and do it anyways just to see how rich i can get before they fix it"

What the Jewbal did wasn't illegal when they did it.

People warned CCP about the possibility of this before the patch went live. CCP didn't listen. Why is CCP punishing people for pointing out that they didn't listen?

Because they noticed that a whole lot of stupid was coming down the pipes? Similar to the way Akita T pointed out the stupid that is Tech before the Moon Goo re-balancing.

People told the developers that tying LP gains into market value would lead to this situation. If there were an extra zero on something, you told CCP that that extra zero could cause problems, and they ignored it, then you have to assume that extra zero is intentional.

You are saying ccp needs to "goonproof" their patches while making everybody else wait ?

no, CCP should release content when it's finished, been tested, and is actually ready for deployment to live servers.

Are you saying that exploiting a vulnerability should be legal up and until CCP says no?

You are saying ccp needs to "goonproof" their patches while making everybody else wait ? You are also saying that silence means "yes, go ahead" ? Eve isn't only played by the "goon mentality", CCP aren't releasing new content/changes just for the "goon mentality".

[quote=Kiteo Hatto] Or maybe listening to people when they point out massive, gaping holes in their product. After all, we're not here to watch Gonzo, we're here for spaceships.

Thing is, its not massive, gaping holes in the product if it requires hardcore spreadsheet action and only a couple of people actually go that far.

In your case CCP should have listened to the ui change too, even if only the minority can't stand it.

I think the Insurance nerf, the PI nerf and all the other nerfs on destroying your own stuff for profit were a pretty good warning.

And the POS bans and destruction were a good warning on not exploiting the game.

Don't you?

Whine, whine, whine some more. Your tears are delicious.

Are you saying that exploiting a vulnerability should be legal up and until CCP says no?

no, CCP should release content when it's finished, been tested, and is actually ready for deployment to live servers.

Thing is, its not massive, gaping holes in the product if it requires hardcore spreadsheet action and only a couple of people actually go that far.

In your case CCP should have listened to the ui change too, even if only the minority can't stand it.

Yeah
wait look youre talking about O.o

I think the loss of isk and assets was good warning

Yes that is what theyve been saying lol

uh... what?

Hell, I dont even remember anymore

Insanity can be annoying but sanity...
Isn't sanity just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean, all you get is that one trick--rational thinking--but when you're good and crazy, well, the sky's the limit!

The bug was reported on SiSi, it was a known bug. They abused it, they should pay. It wasn't like they didn't know that this was a design flaw.

It was reported on SiSi. CCP let it enter the game unchanged. Therefore it should be safe to assume the CCP knew about it and decided they were Ok with it .

Otherwise, If they didn't know about it, it's their fault for not listening to SiSi feedback. If they weren't OK with it, it's their fault for letting it hit TQ.

Since CCP is the only one who can call something a design flaw, a mechanic which they know (or should know) about which reaches TQ must not be a design flaw.

Have you ever played Eve Online?

C'mon jimmy, time for your meds.

My point is that CCP's incompetence is not something that players should be punished for (I mean, on top of having to deal with broken gameplay for years).

They did their diligence by telling CCP about it before it hit TQ. CCP's failure to act means that they should reap the rewards of preparation.

Had nobody warned CCP about this, I'd be singing a different tune.

If their incompetence creates an exploit that you then abuse the **** out of its on you not them

It was reported on SiSi. CCP let it enter the game unchanged. Therefore it should be safe to assume the CCP knew about it and decided they were Ok with it .

Otherwise, If they didn't know about it, it's their fault for not listening to SiSi feedback. If they weren't OK with it, it's their fault for letting it hit TQ.

Since CCP is the only one who can call something a design flaw, a mechanic which they know (or should know) about which reaches TQ must not be a design flaw.

You flew right over the part where CCP was warned about the problem before it hit TQ. That's kind of the whole ballgame. The players did their diligence by telling CCP about a thing. CCP ignored the players. The effects of the thing are on CCP's head.

Thats ok given you flew right over the part where I said:

If their incompetence creates an exploit that you then abuse the **** out of its on you not them

Here's the deal. It's never their (CCP) fault that someone else exploits their design flaws as no game can be perfect. Sure it was a bad move for not fixing it but it still doesn't excuse the blatant exploiting of the system. You see unless you want to convince me the Goons have an IQ lower than 50 they shouldn't be excused for what they did. Anyone smarter than an inbred monkey would have known this would not be allowed, never does a game reward you for blowing up your own **** and most certainly not EVE.

So GOONS were knowingly abusing a design flaw for their profit and no such thing can nor should be accepted.

You flew right over the part where CCP was warned about the problem before it hit TQ. That's kind of the whole ballgame. The players did their diligence by telling CCP about a thing. CCP ignored the players. The effects of the thing are on CCP's head.

People pointed out that the LP gain from cargo would be abused through market manipulation long before it was spreadsheetable (or released).

just because an exploit got reported in good time to prevent it making it onto TQ, doesn't mean its ok to then use the unfixed exploit and expect to keep everything gained from it. "Wah, we told them it was broke, we used it knowing it was broke and now they take our moneys, why???? waaah" is all it sounds like from my balcony in common sense land. Its not on CCP's head at all, its on the head of every person who knowingly abused an exploit, they were the ones planning, preparing and carrying out the act after all.

In my honest opinion, using an exploit that you have previous knowledge from the test server of in conjunction with knowing that it is indeed an 'exploit' by very definition should result in a permanent ban of the account/s and account holders using said exploit and total reversal of all ill-gotten gains received via use of the exploit.

After all, there no telling how many totally unconnected people were affected by the use of this exploit, they may be out of pocket, they may have had enough of hearing about goons constantly and quit, or they may be put off by the fact that there is that much high level organisation going into gaming a system to an advantage. It would seriously put me off wanting to play if I was new to the game and heard people were in serious planning sessions, speadsheets an all, on how to gain vitual currency from a loophole/exploit in a game I was enjoying. Theres really no telling how far the ripples from something like this travel.

just because an exploit got reported in good time to prevent it making it onto TQ, doesn't mean its ok to then use the unfixed exploit and expect to keep everything gained from it. "Wah, we told them it was broke, we used it knowing it was broke and now they take our moneys, why???? waaah" is all it sounds like from my balcony in common sense land. Its not on CCP's head at all, its on the head of every person who knowingly abused an exploit, they were the ones planning, preparing and carrying out the act after all.

In my honest opinion, using an exploit that you have previous knowledge from the test server of in conjunction with knowing that it is indeed an 'exploit' by very definition should result in a permanent ban of the account/s and account holders using said exploit and total reversal of all ill-gotten gains received via use of the exploit.

After all, there no telling how many totally unconnected people were affected by the use of this exploit, they may be out of pocket, they may have had enough of hearing about goons constantly and quit, or they may be put off by the fact that there is that much high level organisation going into gaming a system to an advantage. It would seriously put me off wanting to play if I was new to the game and heard people were in serious planning sessions, speadsheets an all, on how to gain vitual currency from a loophole/exploit in a game I was enjoying. Theres really no telling how far the ripples from something like this travel.

When its so profitable that it makes you question the reality(might not be the word im looking for) of it then its most likely not intended.

Just as there was an "exploit" a while back that i discovered by getting killed to rats doing a level 3. Back when retribution hulls were 13m each, i bought a few and died to rats on purpose to further "test" it.

It was a lot more chance based profit but it was still profit by non intended game mechanics. You died in your retribution(uninsured) then salvaged it(sometimes you got intact armor plates which sold for 34m).

Me being a person with common sense i didn't abuse the exploit even though i knew it would get rich, feel free to do it if you wish.

We can't know it's broken unless CCP says it is. Plenty of mechanics had unintended side effects. Jetcan mining wasn't an intended side effect of jettisoning cargo, but there you have it. Tech's current issues were pretty clearly unintended, but it's not an exploit. Incursions weren't an exploit even though CCP didn't expect influence to immediately peg to 0 once people swooped in.

Just because it's unexpected doesn't mean it's an exploit (Jetcan mining) and just because it's profitable doesn't mean it's an exploit (Tech, NPC PI goo, etc). So how can you tell?

Uh, Tech? And intact armor plates aren't an exploit any more than insurance fraud is when it's possible due to changing markets.

So you are saying its ok to blow up cheap ships and salvage them afterwards for a chance to get something thats worth double the isk ?

When its so profitable that it makes you question the reality(might not be the word im looking for) of it then its most likely not intended.

Just as there was an "exploit" a while back that i discovered by getting killed to rats doing a level 3. Back when retribution hulls were 13m each, i bought a few and died to rats on purpose to further "test" it.

It was a lot more chance based profit but it was still profit by non intended game mechanics. You died in your retribution(uninsured) then salvaged it(sometimes you got intact armor plates which sold for 34m).

Me being a person with common sense i didn't abuse the exploit even though i knew it would get rich, feel free to do it if you wish.

This is the problem, how much common sense would it have taken to realize that it was indeed an exploit, if speadsheets were being drawn up listing quantities and types of items to use in order to artificially inflate rewards then they were obviously premeditating the act, they knew it was an exploit and they used it regardless.

As said by others, it was a known issue during fanfest and something that CCP said would not happen, so when it did happen how would it be labled as 'ok' by anyone with this knowledge, people dont need to be told a pan of boiling water is hot, they should be able to make a reasonable assumption for themselves.

Don't get me wrong though, I admire the level of planning, mathmatical wizardry and the sheer cunning of what they did, but they did do it without thinking of the after effects and fall-out, not just for themselves but for everyone else too.

So you are saying its ok to blow up cheap ships and salvage them afterwards for a chance to get something thats worth double the isk of their whole hull ?

Are you serious ?
Its a flawed game mechanic if you MAKE isk by LOSING isk....

That's equivalent of buying npc trade goods in 1 station for 10isk each and selling them in the same station for 100isk each

Are you serious ?
Its a flawed game mechanic if you MAKE isk by LOSING isk....

That's equivalent of buying npc trade goods in 1 station for 10isk each and selling them in the same station for 100isk each

At worst you will lose a few mil, at best you will double your isk.
The % of success is in your favor

Devs didn't intend us to buy stacks of AFs and play lottery in space with them by ourselves, did they ?

We can't know it's broken unless

Uh, Tech?

Nope. But unintentional mechanic != Exploit. It's called Emergent gameplay

See:
Jetcans
AFK Cloaking
Tech
And so many more.

we abuse the hell out of it ouerselves. Hoe dare CCP punish us for this service.


Is that the spin youre going for?

The Devs didn't INTEND for Mittens to setup a moon goo cartel and have the north sit on an isk gathering machine (I don't say printing as they don't create isk, just gain it for the resource).
The Devs thought it would foster conflict as the alliances in the south (e.g. AAA, Atlas etc...) would fight to gain those moons. Instead what has happened is that the alliances in the north have held them for such a length of time that they have built sizable war chests to use in defending these moons and as a result can

1) establish a price fixing cartel
2) throw cheap ships to their pilots for event like burn jita
3) sponser the killing of hulks etc... so as it turn Hulkageddon into an ongoing event.

Intended outcome? No, but it is still a sandbox one until CCP alter the way moons work (remove them and replace with ring mining or similar) or have the resources deplete and respawn or change t2 production again to make the moons more balanced across the map.

Nope. But unintentional mechanic != Exploit. It's called Emergent gameplay

And no risk vs reward??
When one invest all the isk one have, is that not a risk?

I give up, its hopeless to argue against you. Its silly that a lot of people on here think that unless its specifically specified to the letter by CCP(think of the recent rookie systems thread) then you can do everything and anything you like without a second thought of whether it was intended in the first place or not.

As soon as something profits you its suddenly "emergent gameplay", as soon as ccp corrects something that concerns them its "don't touch my sandbox".

Im going to sleep now. o/

Uh, Tech?

This bold and beautiful universe we live in became much smaller.

damn funny when Goons even admit this is basically an exploit

I give up, its hopeless to argue against you. Its silly that a lot of people on here think that unless its specifically specified to the letter by CCP(think of the recent rookie systems thread) then you can do everything and anything you like without a second thought of whether it was intended in the first place or not.

As soon as something profits you its suddenly "emergent gameplay", as soon as ccp corrects something that concerns them its "don't touch my sandbox".

Im going to sleep now. o/

Market Manipulation isn't an Exploit
Profit isn't an Exploit
Blowing up your alts isn't an Exploit
Spreadsheets in Spreadsheets Online certainly aren't an exploit

Where's the exploit?

Your evidence of ""premeditation" only show that they planned to make money (most industrialists use spreadsheets to ensure a profit).

A small group of market and game mechanics wizards sat in a channel, put their heads together and designed a theoretical exploit to game the system. It succeeded beyond their wildest dreams.

The GÇ£costGÇ¥ in this equation was CCPGÇÖs own metric, which you can see by opening your cargo window or your station hangars and looking in the bottom right of the window. Therein lies the heart of the break -- CCPGÇÖs item value calculation was very vulnerable to manipulation. If you picked the right item, loaded hundreds of thousands of them into a Badger, then blew it up in the context of Faction Warfare, you could generate as much LP as you want for practically no cost. As long as you did the math right, the result was foolproof.

Directly from the goons own mouth from the long explanation posted earlier in the week. He uses the word 'exploit' which to me states that they knew what they were doing was wrong.

When CCP originally released their devblog on Inferno and revealed the formula they intended to use, we sat in shock. I immediately stated a phrase I would repeat many times: GÇ£/10000 will not save themGÇ¥. CCP made the assumption that rewarding a player 1/10th of the value of the playerGÇÖs kill at 1K ISK/LP, for a total of 10K ISK destroyed CCP Value/1 ISK reward, would prevent manipulation of the system. While this was an understandable mistake, it turned out to be several orders of magnitude off.

We laid in wait.

The original babby step was to use hydromagnetic datacores. Hydrocores had a CCP Value of 317,000 ISK (pay attention to this number, because itGÇÖs important). When we bought Minmatar into Tier 4, we were rewarded with a 50% reduction in both LP and ISK cost of our purchases from their loyalty store, so one datacore from the LP store at Tier 4 cost 25 LP and 25,000 isk. When the hauler with the datacore inside was duly murdered by our Minmatar loyalist, it rewarded the murderer with 63.5 LP. Blowing up datacores in this manner grossed enough LP to cash out into implants (at 2000 ISK/LP) to cover the isk portion of the cost of the datacore, while still netting excess LP in the process. Essentially, we were able to convert ISK to LP at the rate of 1390 ISK per LP, then immediately sell the produced LP for 1.5 times what we paid

In this thread, Goon-alts cry harder than Highsec miners during Hulkageddon, honestly HTFU.

P.S. Please continue to gank highsec miners indefinitely (maybe burn Jita and Dodixie too for that matter) as i need you guys to continue driving prices up so i can smoke money like a Goon smokes Tech

Goon smokes Tech

Your evidence of ""premeditation" only show that they planned to make money (most industrialists use spreadsheets to ensure a profit).

ban spreadsheets

Bah, sandbox doesn't mean "abusing unintended game flaws to majorly profit". I don't know about you but when i think sandbox i think free roam, no objectives, no storyline quests that lead to endgame and no cutscenes. (minecraft, garry's mod)

Unless you mean that eve's sandbox is: rustle other's jimmies, troll online, find loopholes to get rich.

Just a quick reply because its late where I am and Im getting sleepy hehe.



Directly from the goons own mouth from the long explanation posted earlier in the week. He uses the word 'exploit' which to me states that they knew what they were doing was wrong.



Manipulating CCP's calculations in a way to profit sounds less like market manipulation and more like cheating to me personally. Also, a 'coming forward' of explaining producing faction lp in limitless quantities for practically no cost in a 'foulproof' manner. Its not so much the producing that is wrong, but the quantities, nothing in EVE is limitless, its all limited either by player action or by design. So, when player action circumvents this, or design breaks, then somethings wrong.

I'll just reiterate on an earlier point that since CCP had already said 'it should not happen' means they obviously were aware that without tweaking the game before releasing Inferno that it could be 'gamed' . Which leads me to believe that CCP were in the belief that no one would try to break/game/exploit the system after fanfest given their stance on it was 'should not happen' (ie, they were in the belief that they had made it impossible to do or unlikely to happen and it wouldnt be classed as an exploit since it isnt possible etc).

Kinda hard to put it into words really without it sounding like a jabbering mess, but I think you get were Im coming from.

again.. the bolded part shows the foreknowledge of the misdeed



Think I see why their datacores got ganked now

Sheds new light on the "datacores that had nothing to do with what they did" line...

CCP Xhagen says. "Technically speaking, they were not doing anything that was forbidden

June 22, 2012 Never forget.

The death of the sandbox came as innocuously as it began. A group of enterprising individuals who examine patch notes and run spreadsheets and formulas found a way to get ahead of a poorly implemented feature on an upcoming patch. The Viking Gods of CCP hf saw fit to sacrifice innovation upon the altar of expediency.

Walls slammed into place and bars were erected. "You may go this far and no further," was the message. This bold and beautiful universe we live in became much smaller.

June 22, 2012 Never forget.

Hey goon, try refuting this part, I see you skipped it the first time

Children know the difference between right and wrong.

This was not market manipulation as that does not require interaction to another part of the game. Note I said require, the ice interdiction could have been done by artificially raising the prices without the PvP. I would not have been as successful but it could have been done.

This could NOT have been done without the flawed CCP calculations.
It was a reported bug. They knew this and exploited it anyway.

The precedent for this behavior is clear. They should receive the same punishment as the blatant POS bug. Anymore would be unfair, any less would be favoritism.

Tech could not be the income source it is today without CCP's massive cock up. NPC PI orders couldn't have been the income bonanza that it was if CCP hadn't left them up after the patch went live.

The precedent is clear. They should lose whatever they made after it was ruled an exploit, but keep everything from before.

Are you saying that exploiting a vulnerability should be legal up and until CCP says no?

Tech was only caused by a human treaty. Yes it needs changing because it did the opposite of what was intended.

Yes the precedent is clear. If you massively abuse a broken mechanic you Loose big time, like the POS bug.

CCP should be congratulated for being on the ball so fast about an obvious abuse of a report bug. As to CCP not releasing it because it was broken, maybe they shouldn't have but I like most of the player base like to see more updates, maybe they just assumed that no one would be stupid enough to abuse a known bug and expect to get away with it.

Say what you will this was abuse of a broken mechanic in the extreme.

No amount of Spin will change that or the punishment they should receive.

Uh yeah: I think it's fair to say if there is no law against doing _____ that people should not be punished for it if the law is then created after the fact.

EDIT: Being on the ball about this would have been fixing it when it was reported on SISI or at Fanfest.

Not knowing the companies internal workings, I can not say how feasible this is.

However any person would expect to be severely punished for exploiting a known bug.
So it would not be unreasonable to release it and fix it later knowing that only complete morons would exploit it.

And here we are now

Where's the bug? 90d Moving averages are working as intended. FW payouts based on those were working as intended. What was bugged?

So now you are claiming its working as intended and doesn't need to be patched or changed. Even though it has just been shown to be flawed as hell.

Give it up they acted like fools and now will pay the price.

You flew right over the part where CCP was warned about the problem before it hit TQ. That's kind of the whole ballgame. The players did their diligence by telling CCP about a thing. CCP ignored the players. The effects of the thing are on CCP's head.

Unintended Gameplay != Bug
Needing a Patch != Bug (unless you're saying that Tech either doesn't need patching or is a bug)

Not a Bug/Exploit != Not needing a patch

Every single flawed law has been widely discussed and its weak points discovered and often passed over to the media.

Do you then proceed abusing it very hard and then pay thousands for a full page national newspapers advertisment to show off your glorious name and how smart you were at it?

What happens next? Do you get a badge of smartness or a quick visit by the cops?

Every single flawed law has been widely discussed and its weak points discovered and often passed over to the media.

Do you then proceed abusing it very hard and then pay thousands for a full page national newspapers advertisment to show off your glorious name and how smart you were at it?

What happens next? Do you get a badge of smartness or a quick visit by the cops?

Every single flawed law has been widely discussed and its weak points discovered and often passed over to the media.

Do you then proceed abusing it very hard and then pay thousands for a full page national newspapers advertisment to show off your glorious name and how smart you were at it?

What happens next? Do you get a badge of smartness or a quick visit by the cops?

Well the response of CCP will at least answer for one and all, if this is EvE online or Goonswarm online. There is a clear precedent for this kind of behavior and should be followed.

It was clearly a bug to anyone with the ability to think.
It was a reported bug and those morons who used it and bragged about it should get the same as those involved in the POS bug.

The FW LP heist used an unexpected interaction between several mechanics (all of which were working properly) to make a boatload of LP. The mechanic that created that LP was working fine and as intended, the mechanic setting the market price was working fine and as intended. Now, if CCP doesn't like the result of this, the reasonable response for them is to fix the problem the same way they've fixed other similar interactions (NPC PI, and Insurance Fraud), by banning it going forward until a fix for it is put in.

Sounds exactly like the NPC PI goods thing. You could buy POSes from NPCs, reprocess them, and sell the components for a fairly large profit.

Nobody got stuff taken away unless they did it after CCP announced that they should stop.


EDIT: People have always made huge profits from patches. The FW thing is no different.

CCP intended to drastically reduce datacore prices. People profit from falling markets all the time.

Uh yeah: I think it's fair to say if there is no law against doing _____ that people should not be punished for it if the law is then created after the fact. I certainly don't see any of the old T2 lottery BPO's being stripped from the people who received them when someone had a GM handing them out like candy to their alliance. I also don't recall hearing about how all the isk from the old ferrogel duping exploits were yanked out of the system.

We won't even get into the differences between "Exploiting" a system and "Gaming" a system.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ex_post_facto_law

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_One_of_the_United_States_Constitution#Section_10:_Limits_on_the_States

If it's not illegal when you do it, you're not subject to criminal sanction, no matter how much you boast about it.

The whole "get LP for blowing up things" reward is ... going to be tricky, isn't it. With a whole bunch of things that might be manipulable. And not just for LP - for a standard scam as well...

Are we gonna talk about people walking around with massive cannons and only get cops warping on them after they've gibbed the freighter?

This is not the USA. The rest of the world thinks different. Deal with it.

Article 11, paragraph 2 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights provides that no person be held guilty of any criminal law that did not exist at the time of offence nor suffer any penalty heavier than what existed at the time of offence. It does however permit application of either domestic or international law.

Article 11
(1) Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defence. (2) No one shall be held guilty of any penal offence on account of any act or omission which did not constitute a penal offence, under national or international law, at the time when it was committed. Nor shall a heavier penalty be imposed than the one that was applicable at the time the penal offence was committed.

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR) is a declaration adopted by the United Nations General Assembly (10 December 1948 at Palais de Chaillot, Paris). The Declaration arose directly from the experience of the Second World War and represents the first global expression of rights to which all human beings are inherently entitled.

Like RL, police goes to the scene crime only after the crime happened (duh! ).

What does Concord do? Punish the criminals. After the fact.

What should CCP do? Punish the abusers. After the fact.

Just because in the past CCP were oblivious to the consequences of their own bad coding does not mean they have to keep staying oblivious.

NPC PI, Pax Amarria, POS duping and so on, all deserved from complete roll back of the ill gotten riches / assets to immediate perma ban. Every decent MMO company does that.

Yeah I see smart money going short on datacores. Oh wait you can't in this game.

After, CCP woke up, started a working anti-bot campaign, started paying more attention to the economy (see how they nerfed incursions, drone poo, then Pax Amarria) and be less oblivious to patching major flaws (patching, not preventing, they are still not doing enough to prevent them).


So, welcome to the new course, where felons get caught and punished. Expecially those who create smug attention catching huge threads in the most visible forum and twitter around.

I think the rest of the world is on board with us on this one.

An exploit, in video games, is the use of a bug or design flaw including glitches, rates, hit boxes, or speed, etc. by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers.[1]

Yeah I see smart money going short on datacores. Oh wait you can't in this game.

I see that you like to quote wikipedia. And you are arguing that exploiting vulnerabilities should be lega. You might not have the rest of the world with you on that one.



This game is about outsmarting other players, not outsmarting NPCs.

This is not the USA. The rest of the world thinks different. Deal with it.

I am arguing that, having done their diligence by reporting the problem before it hit TQ, anyone can make a profit off of something if CCP decides that that thing will go to TQ. CCP is then free to change that thing, but should leave the profit alone. In the past, when things like this have come up, that's exactly what they've done. They've fixed the problem and moved on.

That was a specific response to this:



Which in turn, was a response to an analogy of exploiting a loophole in RL law.


I am arguing that, having done their diligence by reporting the problem before it hit TQ, anyone can make a profit off of something if CCP decides that that thing will go to TQ. CCP is then free to change that thing, but should leave the profit alone. In the past, when things like this have come up, that's exactly what they've done. They've fixed the problem and moved on.

(See, it's also a game about outsmarting the Devs because that can be fun too, and the Devs don't tend to do anything about broken mechanics until someone takes them and runs with it.)

CCP has every right to punish exploiters. They have just not done it much in the past.

I do like to agree with you on this one because of sandbox. And normally I would but the scale of this exploit is close to game breaking. And I don't want to break the game. What if the next time CCP mess up 1000 players are sitting on 100B LP each. Should we then just accept that large parts of the game is completely broken for years and maybe let EVE die?

The main problem with exploits is that many are very difficult to predict and detect and time consuming to fix (e.g. bots). Some might even be impossible to fix without breaking to much of the game play (loggoffski) . A lot of the time CCP have to look through the fingers but the damage is usually minimal so it doesn't matter much.

But when exploiting on this scale CCP cannot just watch and see the game potentially being destroyed. I am not sure if the scale of this is truly game breaking but it looks like it could be. Aryth and co. should be very aware of this. They certainly knew they were exploiting a design defect.

But just to clarify, I don't think they should be banned (with what I know). Rather they deserve some kind of reward but keeping their assets gained might not be the right move here.

But it was illegal the rules were created years ago.

They exploited the game and they need to pay. The loot needs to be gone or CCP just sets the example, that if we find an exploit we just say its not a bug, because CCP did not specifically say so and then try our hardest to break the game.

That would be a great precedent NOT. They exploited a reported bug and need to be punished using the POS precedent.

...

I think the rest of the world is on board with us on this one.


EDIT: More specifically, the following countries ban Ex Post Facto laws.
Brazil

...

and the United Kingdom

Taxation law has on multiple occasions been changed to retrospectively disallow tax avoidance schemes.[9] The most significant example known concerns Double-taxation Treaty Arrangements where the 2008 Finance Act with BN66 retrospectively amended 1987 legislation creating large tax liabilities for 3000 people where no liability existed before.

If you read any of the articles your quoting, you'd see many of those countries *have*.

Ironically

They reported something (might be a bug, might not be) while it was on SiSi, well before it went to TQ. CCP let that thing go live on TQ. The only possible assumption to be made by the players is that it is not a bug.

The POS guys reported the bug in a way that was intended to hide what they're doing from the Devs. They lied to the Devs. They were clearly making something from nothing.

The LP heist did not try to deceive the Devs, did not lie to the Devs, and were not making something from nothing.

If you're saying that using something that's broken for profit is an exploit, why hasn't everyone with a Tech moon been banned? CCP has said on several occasions that Tech is broken.

Your argument is kind of silly. They reported a bug but it might not have been. Well then ban them for reporting non bugs into the petition system and wasting CCP time. It was reported and they knew it was a bug.

Their characters should face the firing squad there actions were so stupid.

Are you serious?

So you expect them to read CCP's mind? Hey, I found this thing that I can make a profit off of. If I don't report it and it turns out to be a bug, I'll get banned, but if I do report it and it turns out not to be, I'll get banned.

Bug Hunters don't know the developer's intent, so they report things that are "odd." The devs then sort out what's a bug and what's intended. All this is supposed to happen before release.

You really, really hate the Goons, don't you. Geeze.

I love how the idea "I think this is a bug, so I wont touch it" simply does not occur to you.

So don't touch and report it, it turns out to be a bug a don't get banned.
So don't touch and don't report it, it turns out to be a bug a don't get banned.

This was clearly a bug anyone with any sense could see.

So if everyone does what you suggest, Bugs never get found.

In this case, Item valuation was working as intended, LP payouts were working as intended. Everything was working as intended except that CCP had not anticipated (though they should have, because it's been around for a while) market manipulation.

Un-Anticipated Gameplay ~= Emergent Gameplay
Un-Anticipated Gameplay != Bug

Do you mean to suggest that if a bunch of mindless jerks hadn't deliberately tried to exploit a system weakness this would never have been found?

So now more work is having to be done on a part of the game only affected by these jerks. Taking away resources from other parts of the game that could have done with the time, this change has already taken and will continue to take.

There are so many things that need fixing in this game, that scum who waste resources like this should just be banned. If they didn't have to keep running after morons we could all have a better game.

Show me on the doll where the bad Goonie touched you.

Did Drone farmers get their mins/isk rolled back?
Did Pax Amarria people get their mins/isk rolled back?
Did Incursioners get their Isk rolled back?

The precedent is set. CCP should fix the issue and move on. They shouldn't touch the items won from it.

Once again this is not the USA. Not all the countries work on precedents and be content with copy pasting sentences.

I think the rest of the world is on board with us on this one.


EDIT: More specifically, the following countries ban Ex Post Facto laws.
Brazil
Canada
Finland
France
Germany
India
Indonesia
Iran Iran is on board here
Ireland
Italy
Japan
Lithuania
New Zealand
Norway
Pakistan
The Philippines
Russia (noted for its strong commitment to Human rights)
Spain
South Africa
Sweden
Turkey Turkey
and the United Kingdom

First of all I invite you to leave your basement and go how the countries don't do what they write or join.
Second, exploiting (or abusing to use CCP Sreegs words) is one of the most severe acts that players can do in a MMO.

Even with the above "design by commitee" lol laws in charge, you would not prevent jail to offenders who:

- Announced the whole world their intention.
- Proceed to an already law covered crime (covered as in, it's generally ban hammer for those) even if with some distinction in some marginal paragraph.

You are not talking about people inventing a loop hole to circumvent some obscure patent related paragraph but of well know, ancient "crimes" in the MMO industry (namely: abusing of game mechanics).

So you're saying that because some countries don't follow principles that are widely accepted as basic Human Rights, they're not Human Rights? I'm confused.

Seriously, you claimed that the prohibition of Ex Post Facto laws wasn't widespread. That's clearly false. Where are you going with this?


Like Tech? It's an unintended Game mechanic. It's being abused. Where's the banhammer/wallet drain?
What about the dozens of other patch day billionaires? They abused unintended Game mechanics. Where's their banhammer/wallet drain?
What about people abusing Local, using it as an intel tool? That's an unintended Game mechanic. It's being abused. Where's the banhammer/wallet drain?

Clearly, abusing unintended Game mechanics is not a ban/wallet drain worthy offense. Whether it be by precedent or consistent application of some hidden law (there, I covered Common and Civil law for you), there is no good justification for the to be banned or have their wallets drained.

You said it, Abusing game mechanics. Well covered in the rules under banable offenses. Also a big yes on draining the wallets as they attempted to profit from said breaches.
The very fact that now the rest of EvE's resources are being wasted because of these idiots, yes they deserve a banhammer.

Seriously, you claimed that the prohibition of Ex Post Facto laws wasn't widespread. That's clearly false. Where are you going with this?

So you're saying that Tech needs to be rolled back a few years, NPC PI abusers need to be rolled back, and everyone needs to be rolled back 9 years for abusing Local?

The two major flavors of Legal systems in the West are Civil Law and Common Law**.
In Civil Law, there would be a specific sentence set out for the crime and the crime would be well defined.*
In Common Law, precedent applies.

*Before you say it's an exploit, you have to note that several other very similar things were fixed without punishing the people who used them before they were banned. The precedent isn't in the punishment, it's in the classification. You can assume that it's a hidden, internal Code, if you dislike precedent.