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Onyx - To MWD or not to MWD?

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GIGAR Caldari Domini Umbrus DEFI4NT	Posted - 2010.01.24 12:20:00 - [1] I've been looking at the Onyx, and I'm wondering - Is it worth the sacrifice in EHP for an added MWD? Since the MWD would only be useful for moving closer to the area which you want to bubble (aka gates), I'm wondering if it's really THAT useful. I'm looking at the Onyx because of it's tanking and bubbling possibilities, more specifically 0.0 sec PVP warfare. Here's my current fit; [Onyx, Onyx, tank] Damage Control II Power Diagnostic System II Power Diagnostic System II Power Diagnostic System II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Photon Scattering Field II Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Warp Disruption Field Generator I, Focused Warp Disruption Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I ------------------------------------ 506 passive Defence 179 DPS // 1478 alpha 248 m/s speed 153,347 EHP 145,275 EHP for shield Anyone got any ideas for both the MWD -thing and my setup in general? Thanks in advance! -------------------------- 2 Years later, mining continues to be the most overlooked game mechanic in Eve
Durzel The Xenodus Initiative.	Posted - 2010.01.24 12:55:00 - [2] I'm not sure I'd feel comfortable with no propulsion mod at all, and you're going to lose EHP either way then it might as well be a MWD for those situations where you don't end up in the perfect place when you come out of warp, or whatever. I've only had limited experience in a HIC though, so take the above with a pinch of salt.
TimMc Gallente Trans-Solar Works Rooks and Kings	Posted - 2010.01.24 13:25:00 - [3] I always bring a MWD to nullsec as a rule. In lowsec you may not need it, but nullsec I think it will always been useful.
GIGAR Caldari Domini Umbrus DEFI4NT	Posted - 2010.01.24 14:08:00 - [4] Originally by: TimMc I always bring a MWD to nullsec as a rule. In lowsec you may not need it, but nullsec I think it will always been useful. The thing is, adding a MWD reduces your EHP quite considerably - Replacing a LSE with a MWD gives 114,745 EHP, and if you replace an invuln instead, it gives 119,660 EHP. It's a pretty large decrease in EHP, and also in passive regen, especially considering that you get a -90% MWD speed bonus from using your bubble :/ -------------------------- 2 Years later, mining continues to be the most overlooked game mechanic in Eve
Tippia Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.01.24 14:16:00 - [5] The "M" in MWD stands for "mandatory". Sooner or later, you'll find yourself in a situation where you'll want to pop your bubble in a slightly out-of-the-way location, or close the distance so you can infinipoint something, or just get the hell out of dodge because you've landed in someone else's bubble. …and if you're in lowsec, it's doubly true because you can only use the scripted version and therefore will have to move around, and an AB just won't cut it because the other guy will probably have something faster fitted and will get away. A tank is nice and all, but if you don't fit your ship to fulfil its purpose – to catch other ships – the tank won't matter because the ship will be left back at the station. Granted, you'll probably need that tank when your FC figures out your slow brick is slowing everyone down and decides to primary you before the enemy gets the chance… ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Rajere No Trademark	Posted - 2010.01.24 14:25:00 - [6] The ship is useless if it's not where it needs to be the moment it needs to be there to engage it's bubble. I can count on 0 fingers the number of times where the difference in EHP mattered on a HIC, while roughly 100% of the time being able to bubble the hostile gang or not is what mattered. Every time a hostile gang is able to get away from a HIC that gets ahead of them it's due to them being AB fitted, which is only excusable cus the HIC was fit for low sec and happened to end up in 0.0. The opinions expressed in my posts do represent my corp -------------------------- NOTR
zappy101	Posted - 2010.01.24 14:35:00 - [7] I'd compromise and fit an Afterburner instead, I'll be flying a double-bubble Devoter (one generator will be scripted) and a MWD would simply ruin the cap, while an AB will give some speed and will allow the bubble to be run permanently.
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2010.01.24 14:45:00 - [8] YES, you NEED mwd in 0.0. You NEED mwd on hic in lowsec /focused script - keeping target in point range/.
Drazin DawnTreader Cutthroat Mercenary Corp	Posted - 2010.01.24 14:46:00 - [9] Originally by: Tippia The "M" in MWD stands for "mandatory". I've been quite successful in 0.0 PvP without a MWD on my hics. If I need a fast bubbler, I use a Dictor. An Onyx is good for its tank and keeping its bubble or infipoint going while getting hammered, but it is not going to win any speed records with a bubble up. If you want fast anf agile, use a Sabre. If you want a huge tank to survive bubbling a hostile fleet, use an Onyx. MWD's are not always Mandatory in 0.0
Verloc Nostromo Silver Snake Enterprise Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2010.01.24 14:50:00 - [10] Edited by: Verloc Nostromo on 24/01/2010 14:52:42 Then you are very lucky. Cause when the **** hits the fan you gotta burn out of a bubble. and without a MWD you wont be able to. Or Wwhat about the times you need to get out of your own fleets bubble NOW to quickly relocate, or to get to a gate after being caught in a drag bubble? You just slow boat over?
GIGAR Caldari Domini Umbrus DEFI4NT	Posted - 2010.01.24 14:57:00 - [11] Originally by: Verloc Nostromo Edited by: Verloc Nostromo on 24/01/2010 14:52:42 Then you are very lucky. Cause when the **** hits the fan you gotta burn out of a bubble. and without a MWD you wont be able to. Or Wwhat about the times you need to get out of your own fleets bubble NOW to quickly relocate, or to get to a gate after being caught in a drag bubble? You just slow boat over? .. The ship that MAKES a bubble need to fly out of it? How does that make sense? D: -------------------------- 2 Years later, mining continues to be the most overlooked game mechanic in Eve
zappy101	Posted - 2010.01.24 15:01:00 - [12] Originally by: GIGAR Originally by: Verloc Nostromo Edited by: Verloc Nostromo on 24/01/2010 14:52:42 Then you are very lucky. Cause when the hits the fan you gotta burn out of a bubble. and without a MWD you wont be able to. Or Wwhat about the times you need to get out of your own fleets bubble NOW to quickly relocate, or to get to a gate after being caught in a drag bubble? You just slow boat over? .. The ship that MAKES a bubble need to fly out of it? How does that make sense? D: He means drag/sling bubbles that are anchored or bubbles that are thrown up by friendly/hostile HICs and dictors, not your own bubble
Tippia Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.01.24 15:03:00 - [13] Originally by: GIGAR Originally by: Verloc Nostromo Then you are very lucky. Cause when the **** hits the fan you gotta burn out of a bubble. and without a MWD you wont be able to. Or Wwhat about the times you need to get out of your own fleets bubble NOW to quickly relocate, or to get to a gate after being caught in a drag bubble? You just slow boat over? .. The ship that MAKES a bubble need to fly out of it? How does that make sense? D: Because you and your ship are not the only things that will create bubbles, even on your side. If you are, then no tank in the world will save you: you're dead on undock. The only thing that can save you is the ability to get out of dodge. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Hiroshima Jita	Posted - 2010.01.24 17:17:00 - [14] You need an mwd for reasons mentioned above. Why do you think that 115k EHP isn't enough? And that 145 is? If you're in a fleet battle and the enemy fc primaries you before he has decisivly won the battle he is a ******. Here's a hint. FCs who don't have their head up their ass primary HICs last. The only time you want max ehp is when baiting. But to be honest your fc basically fails if he sends you far enough ahead to die before his blob releives you.
Sidus Isaacs Gallente	Posted - 2010.01.24 17:29:00 - [15] For any mobile force: No MWD = useless dead ship. :) It is that usefull :D -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
Psychotic Maniac Caldari Head Shrinkers	Posted - 2010.01.24 17:40:00 - [16] Originally by: Sidus Isaacs For any mobile force: No MWD = useless dead ship. :) It is that usefull :D Not the role of the HIC to run away. MWD only mean one thing. MUCH less tank. You forget what a scram does to your ship now?
TimMc Gallente Trans-Solar Works Rooks and Kings	Posted - 2010.01.24 17:46:00 - [17] Originally by: GIGAR Originally by: TimMc I always bring a MWD to nullsec as a rule. In lowsec you may not need it, but nullsec I think it will always been useful. The thing is, adding a MWD reduces your EHP quite considerably - Replacing a LSE with a MWD gives 114,745 EHP, and if you replace an invuln instead, it gives 119,660 EHP. It's a pretty large decrease in EHP, and also in passive regen, especially considering that you get a -90% MWD speed bonus from using your bubble :/ Unless you are tackling capitals in your home systems, I would stick with the MWD.
Meeko Atari	Posted - 2010.01.24 18:14:00 - [18] The only thing you will do with an Onyx without a MWD is make a 200mill isk half-ass Passive Drake that will not be able to : A: not get into position to use the Bubble B: not be able to get back to the gate before your webbed, scrammed, Neuted and popped C: all of the above But good luck !!
Tippia Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.01.24 18:15:00 - [19] Edited by: Tippia on 24/01/2010 18:15:56 Originally by: Psychotic Maniac Not the role of the HIC to run away. MWD only mean one thing. MUCH less tank. You forget what a scram does to your ship now? Exactly. The role of HICs is to make sure other things can't run away. Leave the MWD at home and they can. With ease. The point of fitting an MWD isn't just to let you run, it's to let you position yourself where you need to be. An AB won't let you do that in any reasonable timeframe, and the setup the OP suggests – without any speed mod – won't let you do it at all. The tank you gain will be completely lost, and then some, on the extra time it takes to get into position – chances are you won't even get there. Put another way, which would you rather see: that you arrive at your position having lost 10k of your 115k EHP buffer, or that you arrive having lost 50k of your 145k EHP buffer because getting there took 5+ as long? Oh, and in the latter case, by the time you arrive, that position has shifted, so now you need to lose another 50k EHP to get to where you need to be (and hope that where you need to be hasn't changed by then). ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Sidus Isaacs Gallente	Posted - 2010.01.24 18:26:00 - [20] Originally by: Psychotic Maniac Originally by: Sidus Isaacs For any mobile force: No MWD = useless dead ship. :) It is that usefull :D Not the role of the HIC to run away. MWD only mean one thing. MUCH less tank. You forget what a scram does to your ship now? Mobile does not equal run away. Unless you plan to camp the same gate all day long, MWD is needed. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
Hiroshima Jita	Posted - 2010.01.24 18:33:00 - [21] So what I'm actually getting from this thread is that you want to be a brick drake. You want forum 'permision' to fit a useless brick drake (+100 mil cost for the priviledge of being a t2 brick drake) and when we tell you you're being mentally deficient you try to argue about it. I don't see this going anywhere good. If you want to pvp you fit a mwd. The only time you can get away with an AB is in a frigate. The only time you don't fit propulsion at all is on a capitol. You want to argue with that? Fine I'll concede you can play station games with no propulsion mod. Even then you get bumped a little bit off with your propulsionless ship and you die. But we're not going to convince you. The only thing thats going to convince you is flying out with your fleet, being a useless turd, and dying. Probably alot more than once.
Psychotic Maniac Caldari Head Shrinkers	Posted - 2010.01.24 18:37:00 - [22] Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 24/01/2010 18:15:56 Originally by: Psychotic Maniac Not the role of the HIC to run away. MWD only mean one thing. MUCH less tank. You forget what a scram does to your ship now? Exactly. The role of HICs is to make sure other things can't run away. Leave the MWD at home and they can. With ease. The point of fitting an MWD isn't just to let you run, it's to let you position yourself where you need to be. An AB won't let you do that in any reasonable timeframe, and the setup the OP suggests û without any speed mod û won't let you do it at all. The tank you gain will be completely lost, and then some, on the extra time it takes to get into position û chances are you won't even get there. Put another way, which would you rather see: that you arrive at your position having lost 10k of your 115k EHP buffer, or that you arrive having lost 50k of your 145k EHP buffer because getting there took 5+ as long? Oh, and in the latter case, by the time you arrive, that position has shifted, so now you need to lose another 50k EHP to get to where you need to be (and hope that where you need to be hasn't changed by then). Because most all enemy fleets hug gates this is where you are wrong about the need for mwd and the role of a HIC. Also, all you need is a warp to point near a cap ship. Cap ship goes down. Then after bubbles goes red and need to move any great deal. It's really ok to warp out and back to new spot near another cap. Actually, in many cases it's much faster than tryin to mwd over to it. Devoter or Phobos are a bit different in that they are able to keep thier tank and fit mwd as well.
Tippia Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.01.24 19:11:00 - [23] Originally by: Psychotic Maniac Also, all you need is a warp to point near a cap ship. Cap ship goes down. Then after bubbles goes red and need to move any great deal. It's really ok to warp out and back to new spot near another cap. …and how do you intend to do that when you're getting dragged on warp-in and bubbled on warp-out? ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Diomidis Amarr Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2010.01.24 19:28:00 - [24] Originally by: Hiroshima Jita If you want to pvp you fit a mwd. The only time you can get away with an AB is in a frigate. The only time you don't fit propulsion at all is on a capitol. You want to argue with that? Fine I'll concede you can play station games with no propulsion mod. Even then you get bumped a little bit off with your propulsion-less ship and you die. But we're not going to convince you. The only thing thats going to convince you is flying out with your fleet, being a useless turd, and dying. Probably alot more than once. Over-generalization doesn't always lead to good arguments either, but as a general rule, yes, MWD is a must, unless you are almost-statically gate/station camping. For Dic/HIC mobility is the key - both for offense and defense. And no, your tank is not that awesome: 1-2 BCs can take you down given some time and maybe a med neut...and things change fast, the hunter becomes the hunted, and the HIC is almost always the one being left behind... Join the Biggest Greek Corp! www.Mythos-eve.com - Join Mythos Channel in game!
Ellmar	Posted - 2010.01.24 20:32:00 - [25] it depends on what you want if for but in general: drop an lseII, an invul, an heavy missile launcher and add an 10mn microw II, sensor booster II, warpdistruption with focus script.
Sig Sour	Posted - 2010.01.24 22:10:00 - [26] In low sec a MWD would make a Onyx pointless. For low sec you either want full tank or a sensor booster or after burner. The script kills your cap. For 0.0... Leave the HIC's in the ship maintenance bays of carriers for hot drops, use an interdictor for a roam.
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2010.01.24 22:21:00 - [27] Edited by: Omara Otawan on 24/01/2010 22:24:56 Originally by: Sig Sour In low sec a MWD would make a Onyx pointless. For low sec you either want full tank or a sensor booster or after burner. The script kills your cap. Rubbish. 20k extra EHP wont save you, if you are facing a serious opposition that means maybe 3-4 seconds extra life since you wont receive RR while pointing stuff. You basically just need barely enough tank to be stable against the actual dps you take from sentries, i.e. 350/(# of ships in gang). If you are forward tackler, you NEED the mwd or you are completely useless since a BS with AB can run away from you otherwise. If the script kills enough of your cap to prevent you from burning mwd, you are running a hilarious fit. (protip: shield power relay gives useless shield recharge, PDU gives EHP + cap regen)
Max Tux	Posted - 2010.01.24 22:31:00 - [28] MWD very important on a ship designed to tackle :P fit as such [Onyx, 0.0] Damage Control II Power Diagnostic System II Power Diagnostic System II Power Diagnostic System II Photon Scattering Field II Invulnerability Field II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Warp Disruption Field Generator I, Focused Warp Disruption Warp Disruption Field Generator I Medium Nosferatu II Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Or [Onyx, Low Sec] Damage Control II Power Diagnostic System II Power Diagnostic System II Power Diagnostic System II Photon Scattering Field II Invulnerability Field II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Warp Disruption Field Generator I, Focused Warp Disruption Medium Nosferatu II Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Can change out lows for Nano if you need or swap LSE for sensor boosters ( although i'd use another ship to sensor boost TBH.)
Sig Sour	Posted - 2010.01.24 22:32:00 - [29] Originally by: Omara Otawan Rubbish. 20k extra EHP wont save you, if you are facing a serious opposition that means maybe 3-4 seconds extra life since you wont receive RR while pointing stuff. You basically just need barely enough tank to be stable against the actual dps you take from sentries, i.e. 350/(# of ships in gang). If you are forward tackler, you NEED the mwd or you are completely useless since a BS with AB can run away from you otherwise. If the script kills enough of your cap to prevent you from burning mwd, you are running a hilarious fit. What was I thinking? You are totally correct. Every onyx should have a MWD fit. I'll go ahead and delete all those kills I've gotten with my onxy becase I was doing it all wrong.
Psychotic Maniac Caldari Head Shrinkers	Posted - 2010.01.25 00:10:00 - [30] Originally by: Sig Sour Originally by: Omara Otawan Rubbish. 20k extra EHP wont save you, if you are facing a serious opposition that means maybe 3-4 seconds extra life since you wont receive RR while pointing stuff. You basically just need barely enough tank to be stable against the actual dps you take from sentries, i.e. 350/(# of ships in gang). If you are forward tackler, you NEED the mwd or you are completely useless since a BS with AB can run away from you otherwise. If the script kills enough of your cap to prevent you from burning mwd, you are running a hilarious fit. What was I thinking? You are totally correct. Every onyx should have a MWD fit. I'll go ahead and delete all those kills I've gotten with my onxy becase I was doing it all wrong. Thank you. Someone that knows what he's talking bout.

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