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Riethe	Posted - 2010.01.25 01:52:00 - [61] Edited by: Riethe on 25/01/2010 01:56:54 I'm not taking any side here, or anything like that. Just saying one way or another, nothing is really proven from either side. Maybe true cosmoray got to a conclusion pretty quick... but it's the nature of this place. It wasn't an unrealistic leap. And it still isn't. Guilty until proven innocent around here. edit: Speaking of mining in a velator to pay back investors--Did brock have a clause in his offering about this? Is it really the responsibility of a hacked individual to work unrealistically to recover what was lost? As far as his status in the business world now. Isn't it gone anyway? Clearly the dude operates a computer at the level of a chimpanzee. His account was compromised, for crying out loud. Who knows when it could happen again. Why would you invest in someone who is clearly making poor choices leading up to this event? What steps have you taken to prevent this from happening again?
JIta Bob	Posted - 2010.01.25 03:18:00 - [62] Just in case you weren't aware, Brock's Bio has been changed now.
Brock Nelson Caldari Flux Technologies Inc SRS.	Posted - 2010.01.25 03:49:00 - [63] Edited by: Brock Nelson on 25/01/2010 03:52:05 Are you serious Riethe? Are you going to work your ass off to pay back every victims of your scams? If so why? I'm working to pay back people because I want to. It's kind of fun now because I'm exploring different things that I wouldn't do b/c of low return, lack of capital, etc. It's kind of like remembering how I came to be before being hacked. When I had billions in assets and isk, I had a hard time trying to find things to do that were of decent return but now, it's just a matter of paying everybody back. Edit: You seem to think that being hacked is somehow my fault. How does one prevent himself being hacked by someone? There's no way that I could've known that I did something specific such as downloading and installing evemon that has keylogger build into it, or visit some **o website that's built by Ji Sama's alt designed to install spyware on my computer to sniff out my password. Closed until further notice**
Varo Jan Caravanserai Consulting	Posted - 2010.01.25 04:38:00 - [64] What happened to the corporate assets, Brock?
Brock Nelson Caldari Flux Technologies Inc SRS.	Posted - 2010.01.25 04:40:00 - [65] Originally by: Varo Jan What happened to the corporate assets, Brock? It got cleaned out as well Closed until further notice
Varo Jan Caravanserai Consulting	Posted - 2010.01.25 04:47:00 - [66] CCP took the corporate assets?
Brock Nelson Caldari Flux Technologies Inc SRS.	Posted - 2010.01.25 04:48:00 - [67] No, someone hacked into my account and took everything including assets that belongs to Flux Technologies Inc. Closed until further notice
Alater Caedo	Posted - 2010.01.25 04:48:00 - [68] Edited by: Alater Caedo on 25/01/2010 04:48:47 thumbs up brock.
Varo Jan Caravanserai Consulting	Posted - 2010.01.25 04:53:00 - [69] Someone like this? Originally by: Brock Nelson Bus I have a friend in RL who plays eve online, IÆve made an agreement with him to step in and start procedure to shut down this IPO in event that IÆm hit by a bus or unable to continue this IPO.
Brock Nelson Caldari Flux Technologies Inc SRS.	Posted - 2010.01.25 04:55:00 - [70] Originally by: Varo Jan Someone like this? Originally by: Brock Nelson Bus I have a friend in RL who plays eve online, IÆve made an agreement with him to step in and start procedure to shut down this IPO in event that IÆm hit by a bus or unable to continue this IPO. What are you getting at? Closed until further notice
Varo Jan Caravanserai Consulting	Posted - 2010.01.25 05:49:00 - [71] Originally by: Brock Nelson No, someone hacked into my account and took everything including assets that belongs to Flux Technologies Inc. Your IPO for 10 billion was supposed to be secured by locked down BPOs that could only be unlocked by shareholders. What you are implying is that all the BPOs were unlocked, otherwise they could not have disappeared. Had they been unlocked? If so, why?
Brock Nelson Caldari Flux Technologies Inc SRS.	Posted - 2010.01.25 05:50:00 - [72] Originally by: Varo Jan Originally by: Brock Nelson No, someone hacked into my account and took everything including assets that belongs to Flux Technologies Inc. Your IPO for 10 billion was supposed to be secured by locked down BPOs that could only be unlocked by shareholders. What you are implying is that all the BPOs were unlocked, otherwise they could not have disappeared. Had they been unlocked? If so, why? They haven't been unlocked, just left unlocked. Mainly b/c I've lost some business while waiting for the votes to go through. Closed until further notice
Angus McSpork Caldari	Posted - 2010.01.25 06:04:00 - [73] Originally by: Brock Nelson They haven't been unlocked, just left unlocked. Mainly b/c I've lost some business while waiting for the votes to go through.
Varo Jan Caravanserai Consulting	Posted - 2010.01.25 06:10:00 - [74] Originally by: Brock Nelson They haven't been unlocked, just left unlocked. Mainly b/c I've lost some business while waiting for the votes to go through. So 10B worth of assets were left unlocked because you chose to ignore the security terms under which you obtained public money. Hack or no hack, that makes you careless and liable.
flakeys T.H.U.G L.I.F.E The Volition Cult	Posted - 2010.01.25 07:21:00 - [75] Originally by: Brock Nelson Originally by: Varo Jan Originally by: Brock Nelson No, someone hacked into my account and took everything including assets that belongs to Flux Technologies Inc. Your IPO for 10 billion was supposed to be secured by locked down BPOs that could only be unlocked by shareholders. What you are implying is that all the BPOs were unlocked, otherwise they could not have disappeared. Had they been unlocked? If so, why? They haven't been unlocked, just left unlocked. Mainly b/c I've lost some business while waiting for the votes to go through. Hate to say but even if your account got hacked this makes you the weak factor here not the account hack itself.You do realise that the idea of a scam only grows a HUGE amount with this?
Estel Arador Minmatar Estel Arador Corp Services	Posted - 2010.01.25 07:23:00 - [76] Originally by: Brock Nelson You seem to think that being hacked is somehow my fault. It most likely is. Unless of course you want to argue that somoene is bruteforcing usernames and passwords, and that it's by chance that your account was (one of those) accessed. Free jumpclone service: Thread\|Caldari Navy added
Janiries Swordhand	Posted - 2010.01.25 07:31:00 - [77] Originally by: flakeys Originally by: Brock Nelson Originally by: Varo Jan Originally by: Brock Nelson No, someone hacked into my account and took everything including assets that belongs to Flux Technologies Inc. Your IPO for 10 billion was supposed to be secured by locked down BPOs that could only be unlocked by shareholders. What you are implying is that all the BPOs were unlocked, otherwise they could not have disappeared. Had they been unlocked? If so, why? They haven't been unlocked, just left unlocked. Mainly b/c I've lost some business while waiting for the votes to go through. Hate to say but even if your account got hacked this makes you the weak factor here not the account hack itself.You do realise that the idea of a scam only grows a HUGE amount with this? Well, even if Brock intended to scam; why would he come back? Would be a lot easier for him to walk away than to come back and deal with it.
Tiberius Skrooem Huwee Skrooem and Howe Solicitors	Posted - 2010.01.25 07:34:00 - [78] Originally by: Cecilia Syal Edited by: Cecilia Syal on 24/01/2010 17:23:16 Originally by: Proton Power Lets assume I am computer stupid, and since we are kinda on this topic. What can I do to try and prevent somthign like this happening to me, other than the obvious - 1. Good Password 2. I have Norton Anti-Virus and always keep it updated (It does find stuff here and there though that it calls virus's) 3. I use spybot as a 2nd'ary program to get rid of stuff. Anything else? 1) Don't give out your email that you use for your eve account to anyone this can be hacked easily via brute force 2) use different password for your eve account than forums and websites that could be comprimised 3) Don't download anything linked to you like a spreadsheet, pdf, exe unless from reputable source, can have keyloggers most virus scanners dont find... 4) get a firewall program that enables each program which can have outgoing/incoming net access. some are freeware. edit: these few things would greatly "minimize" risk, virus protection and spyware detector won't protect you in 95% of cases cause their custom programmed and not in virus definition files.. but really its up to you what you do to minimize risk edit2: If you give out email address to shady people and got a easy password like qwerty12 etc. they just brute force email address all day once they get access, they do forgot login/pass on eve website with the email and its sent to them.. also alot of it is done by social engineering "phishing" where you think its an official email and its not, you get a mail that you gotta reset your pass to go to eveonline-3.com etc and enter old password to get new one and bam... they got you cause u followed the url that looked official but it wasnt.. lookup "419 scams" on google too, a lot are like those. lolbruteforce. Just about every email provider has brute force prevention. Brute force is only doable if you somehow get your hands on a password hash or something to work on locally. Even then, any decent password would take quite a while. Point 1 is valid, but mainly because of phishing. As for point 3: There is no such thing as a reputable source. Everyone can be compromised. Use Google Docs for any documents you download. Run executables in a virtual machine.
Liang Nuren No Salvation War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.01.25 12:09:00 - [79] Originally by: Lord Windu If he had been hacked and lost all his stuff wouldn't he have posted on the forums letting people know and apologizing, instead of just changing his in-game bio. Also, if he has been "hacked" and CCP won't replace his stuff then I'd reckon it's down to him account sharing. I just want to correct this misperception. A couple months back a director of No Salvation's account was hacked. We all saw him log on to Eve but not join the shared channels. We thought it odd, and he was supposed to be at work anyway - so someone texted him. And lo and behold he was at work. So one guy started a petition while the hacker was still online, but we didn't get to his roles quickly enough. The hacker cleaned the corp wallet, emptied the main corp hanger, emptied the director's personal hanger, reprocessed it all (including ships), firesale'd the minerals, and transferred all of the ISK to some guy in Morsus Mihi. The end result of the multiple petitions was that the ISK taken from the corp wallet and the director's personal wallet was recoverable. Assets (including ships) were not recoverable. All things considered I think NOSA lost ~15-20 billion worth of mods and ISK. It actually hit our corp so hard that we don't even have a corp hanger anymore - and the corp wallet is kept to an absolute minimum. Which sucks because it was cool to be in a corp where everyone trusted each other enough to leave deadspace gear in a corp hanger for months on end.... and it didn't disappear. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2010.01.25 12:44:00 - [80] Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 25/01/2010 12:52:52 Quote: Guilty until proven innocent around here If I were you, in search of redemption and noticing how quick shallow judices are made, I'd keep your quick judgements for myself. Brock is not exactly unknown, nor he's known for tricking people, imho he deserved some days of chance before people would whack him with the sledgehammer. And like Brock, everyone else who had a minimum record playing fair (in fact this reply is not for the specific case, but for the new trend of putting people to torture just because). Moreover, you should have documented yourself about his IPO, so you would not have to say: "Speaking of mining in a velator to pay back investors--Did brock have a clause in his offering about this?" I mean, before talking trash of people who were trusted both as investees and auditors, I'd give them at least an opportunity to defend themselves. Only then, the judgements etc. apply. I.e. having the account hacked, assets not locked etc. is worth considering, but not before the person had a chance of some days to show up. Edit: I can already see it, my RL employer demands me to go in one of our branches in Brazil or Korea. The airplane comes late so I arrive back 1 day past due payment of my loan. I can almost see the people tearing their dresses apart, screaming, rolling, frothing. Suckers. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Queen Athena	Posted - 2010.01.25 15:07:00 - [81] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 25/01/2010 12:52:52 Quote: Guilty until proven innocent around here If I were you, in search of redemption and noticing how quick shallow judices are made, I'd keep your quick judgements for myself. Brock is not exactly unknown, nor he's known for tricking people, imho he deserved some days of chance before people would whack him with the sledgehammer. And like Brock, everyone else who had a minimum record playing fair (in fact this reply is not for the specific case, but for the new trend of putting people to torture just because). Moreover, you should have documented yourself about his IPO, so you would not have to say: "Speaking of mining in a velator to pay back investors--Did brock have a clause in his offering about this?" I mean, before talking trash of people who were trusted both as investees and auditors, I'd give them at least an opportunity to defend themselves. Only then, the judgements etc. apply. I.e. having the account hacked, assets not locked etc. is worth considering, but not before the person had a chance of some days to show up. Edit: I can already see it, my RL employer demands me to go in one of our branches in Brazil or Korea. The airplane comes late so I arrive back 1 day past due payment of my loan. I can almost see the people tearing their dresses apart, screaming, rolling, frothing. Suckers. OK... so what about lying about locked down BPO's?
Alater Caedo	Posted - 2010.01.25 15:16:00 - [82] IF this is a legit case of someone logging in to your account and draining all of your assets, brock, then I think this is a perfect example of the RISK factor of investing kicking all of your investors in the head when they expected the REWARD factor to shower them with love and cuddly iskies.
Thrasymachus TheSophist	Posted - 2010.01.25 18:23:00 - [83] Originally by: Alater Caedo IF this is a legit case of someone logging in to your account and draining all of your assets, brock, then I think this is a perfect example of the RISK factor of investing kicking all of your investors in the head when they expected the REWARD factor to shower them with love and cuddly iskies. hah, except for that bit about him agreeing to lockdown all BPOs to prevent their theft, but then he didn't do it. On the flip side, wouldn't the shareholders have realized there were no votes on unlocking BPOs as business was running, and hence at least should have been aware they weren't locked down? Anyway, all this proves, yet again, is that investing in this game is stupid and that the reason real life developed legal systems has applicability here. This game simply doens't give the tools to permit trust in anyone.
Dretzle Omega Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.01.25 18:36:00 - [84] Originally by: Thrasymachus TheSophist Anyway, all this proves, yet again, is that investing in this game is stupid and that the reason real life developed legal systems has applicability here. This game simply doens't give the tools to permit trust in anyone. More or less agreed, but there are people who have made more than they lost in these investments. I'm one, though I haven't invested much myself yet. There are others. Originally by: Akita T BTW, if you see God when you're clutching for your chest due to sudden realization you have no chance to get out of this with your wallet intact tell him he still owes me money
Tesal	Posted - 2010.01.25 21:29:00 - [85] question: How much is his reputation worth? Probably more than 10b. If he were to scam, it would be for a lot more or it doesn't make sense. never stop posting...with alts. Please do not use inappropriate language in your sig. Zymurgist
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2010.01.25 21:38:00 - [86] Quote: OK... so what about lying about locked down BPO's? I see you just skipped 95% of the post to make this note? Quote: Only then, the judgements etc. apply. I.e. having the account hacked, assets not locked etc. is worth considering, but not before the person had a chance of some days to show up Quote: Anyway, all this proves, yet again, is that investing in this game is stupid and that the reason real life developed legal systems has applicability here. This game simply doens't give the tools to permit trust in anyone RL is not so much safer. Actually, how many devised not one, not two, but a whole network of banks operating the now infamous "shadow banking" aka one of the factors in the recent USA (and not only) crysis? Also, and few know about this, the whole disaster has its root in one "brilliant" economist, who years ago devised a simplified formula to price risk. That formula just assumed the economy would keep expanding. The results can be seen today. That guy would make Brock or anyone else in MD look prudent and with foresight... Quote: question: How much is his reputation worth? Probably more than 10b. If he were to scam, it would be for a lot more or it doesn't make sense. This, of course, assuming that people are just all scammers-to-be, only waiting for the right price to fall in corruption. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Mme Pinkerton Eschaton Industries	Posted - 2010.01.25 22:32:00 - [87] Edited by: Mme Pinkerton on 25/01/2010 22:33:44 Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Also, and few know about this, the whole disaster has its root in one "brilliant" economist, who years ago devised a simplified formula to price risk. Please name and shame! Are you talking about CAPM? Every first year economics student can tell you half a dozen different reasons why this model does not realistically depict the situation on actual investment markets - if bankers fail to understand this, why blame the economists? However, from what I have so far heard the issues leading to an exaggerated illusion of security are not as much seen as the models themselves rather than the data used to calibrate these models... (the turkey that has no knowledge of all the other turkeys pre-dating his existence cannot know about his probable demise on Thanksgiving when restricting himself to purely statistical models; you can hardly expect your model to cope with a pricing bubble when you have no previous bursting bubble in your dataset).
thebarry SRS Industries SRS.	Posted - 2010.01.26 03:27:00 - [88] some posts are now going into the TLDR bin
Maneck StreetPreacher	Posted - 2010.01.26 12:34:00 - [89] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 25/01/2010 12:52:52 Quote: Guilty until proven innocent around here If I were you, in search of redemption and noticing how quick shallow judices are made, I'd keep your quick judgements for myself. Brock is not exactly unknown, nor he's known for tricking people, imho he deserved some days of chance before people would whack him with the sledgehammer. And like Brock, everyone else who had a minimum record playing fair (in fact this reply is not for the specific case, but for the new trend of putting people to torture just because). Moreover, you should have documented yourself about his IPO, so you would not have to say: "Speaking of mining in a velator to pay back investors--Did brock have a clause in his offering about this?" I mean, before talking trash of people who were trusted both as investees and auditors, I'd give them at least an opportunity to defend themselves. Only then, the judgements etc. apply. I.e. having the account hacked, assets not locked etc. is worth considering, but not before the person had a chance of some days to show up. Edit: I can already see it, my RL employer demands me to go in one of our branches in Brazil or Korea. The airplane comes late so I arrive back 1 day past due payment of my loan. I can almost see the people tearing their dresses apart, screaming, rolling, frothing. Suckers. Brand new to EVE, so I really can't comment much on the substance of what's going on. But I do have to comment on your post, considering your (alleged) roll. You were the auditor for this endeavour which is now belly up. It's gone belly up after failing because of two major risks that you didn't identify in your reports to the public. Specifically: sharing account information with an unknown 3rd party, the likely source of the hack, and keeping blue prints unlocked despite prospectus saying it would be locked One is obviously a material factor. Doubling the people with access to account doubles the risk of a theft loss. The second is a compounding factor. Keeping assets unlocked ramps up the losses incurred when a theft occurs. While people ought to have expected risk of theft (whether by Brock or by account breach), they could take comfort in the fact that only minimal assets would be lost to such a breach because of locking. Unfortunately, Brock decided it was too much work to keep the locks in place, and removed them despite his explicit statement in the prospectus. I see that he made a petition at a later point to change this, but I didn't see the results. If he asked for unlocking, and the shareholders said "Yes", well, they can be mad at him for sharing his account but they okayed the step which allowed a severe loss. On the other hand, if they said "No" and he unlocked anyway, there's not much else to be said. 85% of the theft is his fault. 5% is part of the risk of investing. And the last 10%? That's got to fall on the head of the auditor who failed to identify a significant source of risk and the fact that Brock decided to evade an effective and promised risk management control. And rather than admitting that expected controls were not in place, leading to the loss, you as the auditor are in here chewing out the people demanding answers... when that's supposed to be your role. As I said, I'm new here and my opinions ought to be given little weight. But I'd be very concerned about and companies using you as an auditor considering how you're handling something that's tanked. Disasters are bound to happen in the ventures of man; judge people on how they handle those disaters. Brock is running nearly silent. The auditor is attacking people who are justifiably angry, and taking no responsibility for failure to monitor significant changes in the risk of a corporation.
Dretzle Omega Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.01.26 12:59:00 - [90] Originally by: Maneck StreetPreacher sharing account information with an unknown 3rd party, the likely source of the hack, and keeping blue prints unlocked despite prospectus saying it would be locked. I believe the first was Brock's "hit by a bus strategy", and so it would have been in his original post (I haven't seen the thread myself, but just going on what I've read here). The second, I don't think an auditor can confirm the blueprints were locked, unless maybe VV had a spare alt he could put into the corp to verify. I'm not sure as to the extent of that audit. Originally by: Maneck StreetPreacher And the last 10%? That's got to fall on the head of the auditor who failed to identify a significant source of risk and the fact that Brock decided to evade an effective and promised risk management control. Did you read the original thread? Could you link it please? I'd be interested, too, for my own curiosity. I assume you did, otherwise you wouldn't be able to make these statements about VV's audit. Originally by: Maneck StreetPreacher And rather than pointing out where failures occurred and how they might have occured (which has been left to others) you're in here attacking the attackers. You're acting like Brock's lawyer (advocating for him), not his auditor (advocating for the shareholders and helping them evaluate risk). Is VV doing an ongoing audit for him? If not, he's not longer an auditor and has no role. But in any case, VV's response was to Riethe's comment. She's not "attacking the attackers", she's attacking a known scammer making shallow judgments on a much better liked businessman in a bad situation. And she's not "advocating for Brock", she said give a trusted investee at least an opportunity to defend himself before applying judgments. Originally by: Maneck StreetPreacher Whatever the case, you certainly don't sound like an auditor now. Is she an ongoing auditor? Even if so, she works both for the investors and the investees. An auditor also works with an investee, like giving him a chance to defend himself before he's tossed in the sewer. Originally by: Akita T BTW, if you see God when you're clutching for your chest due to sudden realization you have no chance to get out of this with your wallet intact tell him he still owes me money

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