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Oriss Amarr
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Posted - 2010.01.28 15:14:00 -
[1]
Nothing works. ECM is good, but no other form of Ewar is viable. I miss sensor damps.
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ArkAngel666
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Posted - 2010.01.28 15:40:00 -
[2]
Tracking disruptors don't work? Could have fooled the heck out of me...
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TimMc
Gallente
Trans-Solar Works
Rooks and Kings
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Posted - 2010.01.28 15:44:00 -
[3]
Target Painters are more of a utility than ewar. Tracking disruptors work, sensor dampers have their odd use, ecm is incredibly useful.
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Skippermonkey
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Posted - 2010.01.28 16:16:00 -
[4]
Fix railguns and then you can make Ewar a more level playing field
Look at me, im using the INTERNETS! |
Demolishar
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Posted - 2010.01.28 16:38:00 -
[5]
Add a TD which nerfs missiles and I'll be happy. Oh and give my Curse a bonus for it 
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Dr Fighter
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Posted - 2010.01.28 16:43:00 -
[6]
its only really damps that need to be looked at imo.
painters definitly do work and do get used.
TDs work very well, just one on any turret ship that isnt piont blank, has a massive effect.
ECM - still arguably too strong (the effect itself) but other wise the most popular form of EW
damps need 2-3 on a single target to have an effective result.
WTF has EW got to do with railguns!! GTFO troll!
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Oriss Amarr
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Posted - 2010.01.28 16:43:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Oriss Amarr on 28/01/2010 16:46:24
 Originally by: TimMc
Target Painters are more of a utility than ewar. Tracking disruptors work, sensor dampers have their odd use, ecm is incredibly useful.
I certainly think minmatar need to be given a 4th type of jamming ewar.
Originally by: Demolishar
Add a TD which nerfs missiles and I'll be happy. Oh and give my Curse a bonus for it
Tracking disruptors now can be used on missles. On activation, it targets the launch bay and scrambles the guidance systems of missles loaded into the launch bay. The effect of target velocity on the damage of missiles is increased by X%
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Max Tux
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Posted - 2010.01.28 17:32:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Oriss Amarr
I certainly think minmatar need to be given a 4th type of jamming ewar.
Originally by: Demolishar
Add a TD which nerfs missiles and I'll be happy. Oh and give my Curse a bonus for it
Tracking disruptors now can be used on missles. On activation, it targets the launch bay and scrambles the guidance systems of missles loaded into the launch bay. The effect of target velocity on the damage of missiles is increased by X%
Maybe since it is a dual purpose mod it could also decrease the flight time too. That would give similar effects to what it does to turrets.
if you are gonna do that then give us defender missiles that work on turrets,.......
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Kassa Daito
Capital Construction Research
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Posted - 2010.01.28 18:37:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Max Tux
Originally by: Oriss Amarr
I certainly think minmatar need to be given a 4th type of jamming ewar.
Originally by: Demolishar
Add a TD which nerfs missiles and I'll be happy. Oh and give my Curse a bonus for it
Tracking disruptors now can be used on missles. On activation, it targets the launch bay and scrambles the guidance systems of missles loaded into the launch bay. The effect of target velocity on the damage of missiles is increased by X%
Maybe since it is a dual purpose mod it could also decrease the flight time too. That would give similar effects to what it does to turrets.
if you are gonna do that then give us defender missiles that work on turrets,.......
I want an ammo type that lowers turret DPS too.
We're talking about midslots here, which everyone has and must give up some other useful mod to use. Not an ammo type, which everyone with that weapon system can change to as soon as they finish unloading their DPS ammo without losing much time. Assuming you have a missile launcher, the only thing you give up to have the *option* of using defenders is cargo space and a bit of micromanagement to do the swap. Most of EVE would agree that cargo space is significantly less valuable than a mod slot.
On-topic: IMO TDs aren't all that bad right now and would be incredibly overpowered if given a missile effect without some serious nerfing of its effect. We might need a TD-equivalent for missiles but I like TDs the way they are (very effective vs any turret ship unless you fit long range guns of a size lower than their short range guns).
I think sensor dampeners are currently useless 90% of the time and ECM is far too useful 90% of the time. If we can somehow make ECM a bit more situational (not necessarily less powerful) and make dampening generally more useful then I think it would be pretty balanced across the races. Right now Caldari ewar works against everyone while Gallente ewar only works in specific gangs fighting specific targets with tactics designed around utilizing damps.
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Disclaimer: Author sometimes spell checks but is not responsible for sins of commission, omission, emission, transmission, or submission. Flowers, bricks, or any other form of feedback appreciated |
Sprilk
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Posted - 2010.01.28 18:59:00 -
[10]
I love target painters :), they work quiet well.
But i am a missile user, and tp are far more effective for missile users.
As for TD, and damps... sensor damps have there uses just not very usefull most of the time. and i know many people who sware by tracking disruptors but there "benefit" is hard to quantify since its hard to see its effects.
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Asuka Smith
Gallente
Noir.
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Posted - 2010.01.28 19:05:00 -
[11]
Problem with dampeners is that they are not useful in the only situation where they apply in theory, long range fights away from gates.
Right now if you are fighting in a snipers off of a gate the enemy is going to have a lot more people than you can damp, and they are going to just primary the dampener with the undamped ships and kill it instantly. We need a BS platform that can fit damps AND dps and suddenly they are useful, or give dampeners are 150km optimal so the Arazu/Lachesis can stay out of the typical 100km magical engagement range.
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Oriss Amarr
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Posted - 2010.01.28 19:34:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Asuka Smith
Problem with dampeners is that they are not useful in the only situation where they apply in theory, long range fights away from gates.
Right now if you are fighting in a snipers off of a gate the enemy is going to have a lot more people than you can damp, and they are going to just primary the dampener with the undamped ships and kill it instantly. We need a BS platform that can fit damps AND dps and suddenly they are useful, or give dampeners are 150km optimal so the Arazu/Lachesis can stay out of the typical 100km magical engagement range.
I certainly agree that this is half the problem with EWAR at the moment. I wouldn't mind swapping the turret bonus on the Dominix and giving it a damp bonus myself. In fact, I think black ops should be jamming ships as well as their jump portal role, that may make them more useful and fix the ewar issue a bit.
I don't really think it's that ECM is TOO useful, but that you can stick it on a BS, and get BS sized results. I think if you could stick damps on a BS and give it bonuses so that it could damp a BS down to a few km locking distance from 100km away running 5-6 damps rigged with scripts, that would be on par with ECM and make them have a useful role for longer ranged gangs. TD's basically do the same thing only jamming the optimal, not the locking, and should be balanced to such as well. However, all EWAR could benefit a frigate gang too if you take enough of it, disrupting larger turrets, making lock times incredibly painful for larger ships, and preventing them from locking if enough little frigs carry one of the modules you plan to amass. Seems rather balanced to me.
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Grapez
The Greater Goon
Clockwork Pineapple
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Posted - 2010.01.28 19:37:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Asuka Smith
Problem with dampeners is that they are not useful in the only situation where they apply in theory, long range fights away from gates.
Right now if you are fighting in a snipers off of a gate the enemy is going to have a lot more people than you can damp, and they are going to just primary the dampener with the undamped ships and kill it instantly. We need a BS platform that can fit damps AND dps and suddenly they are useful, or give dampeners are 150km optimal so the Arazu/Lachesis can stay out of the typical 100km magical engagement range.
Perhaps this could be a role for the Sin? You could get rid of the inexplicable agility bonus which seems entirely out of character for Gallente and replace it with the Maulus/Celestis hulls' damp bonuses.
But leave the turret bonus on the Domi. Neutron/Ogre Domi of Doom is the **** :twisted:
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snake133
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Posted - 2010.01.28 20:17:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Oriss Amarr
Nothing works. ECM is good, but no other form of Ewar is viable. I miss sensor damps.
lachise/arazu with damps is still pretty good. i have an arazu that warp disrupts at 60+km and can dam a 100km lock bs down to 12km/s using jst 3 damps 2 gets it to 18km. i dono but that sounds pretty good. disrupts and ecm work jst fine but tp wtf tp oh noes il make you look bigger...... im with them on the idea of doing something else for min ew. granted the webber range is nice but a actual ew mod .. but what could it be.
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Grimpak
Gallente
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2010.01.28 21:17:00 -
[15]
ECM in itself does it's job. it is very strong however, since it's pretty much a yes/no thing (omg can't target ****!!11one/HAHA your jammers fail), and when you get hit by a "yes", you're a dead fish in the water, unless you're a drone ship/missile ship with FoF's.
TD's are fine, altho they could do with an increase in the optimals. maybe adding a TD optimal increase to the range script?
damps are very... situational. the range nerfing ability seems very good vs snipers, but it lacks the range to do it, probably doing the same thing as the TD's?
TP's work, that's true, but they suffer from the "there are better things to fit on a medslot beyond TP's" syndrome.
---
Quote:
The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
Trader20
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Posted - 2010.01.28 21:25:00 -
[16]
ecm if the only ewar thats not usually fit on non-bonused ships, I wonder why that is....
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Jhoria Englside
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Posted - 2010.01.28 23:01:00 -
[17]
the only problem with damps is the ships bonused for them only have a 5% bonus. even ships without a TD bonus can benefit alot from a TD. im not saying anything has to be changed with TDs either. just that it has a larger role, and im cool with that. i just wish in the very situational role of damps, the one ships that are designed to do it better do it alot better. even if just the Lachesis is given a 10% bonus and the Arazu is left at 5% would be an improvement. its got to just be the ships that have a bonus, because if you buff the damps themselves then you have the same old problem you used to have.
Totally not an alt of Jesslyn's, who might or might not be able to post for 'personal attacks' when calling someone dumb. |
Cobalt Sixty
Caldari
Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude
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Posted - 2010.01.28 23:11:00 -
[18]
The problem with RSDs is that they were a "every ship must have one" module in PvP because they were so good - even on ships that didn't have a bonus for them. Now they've been nerfed a little bit too much (in my opinion) by Scripting so that even when you fit them on a hull with a bonus they're hard pressed to be as useful as other electronic warfare can be.
Maybe instead of a 50% reduction they should have only been reduced by 33% or 25% - alternatively, keep them as they are and boost the bonus on the Tech I (and, yes, Tech II) hulls from 5% to 10% so ships that are meant to fit RSDs as a first choice actually have a reason to fit them.
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Footoo Rama
Gallente
Caldari Illuminati
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Posted - 2010.01.28 23:54:00 -
[19]
Damps need some help, they only really work on an Arazu and even then you need 3 on a ****... Unless you are counter ECM, then one per ship sometimes 2. Outside of that they are pretty worthless.
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"Because the Dominix is the Chuck Norris of Eve!" |
Sumelar
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Posted - 2010.01.29 01:42:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Demolishar
Add a TD which nerfs missiles and I'll be happy. Oh and give my Curse a bonus for it
It's called an afterburner.
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Terianna Eri
Amarr
Senex Legio
Get Off My Lawn
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Posted - 2010.01.29 01:46:00 -
[21]
I think damps could be useful if you've got a few hacs about 80km off the fight (maybe a pulse zealot on the other side of the field from you), or especially against logistics, who have a long operating range (70km) but not a lot of extra locking range past that, and who typically fit ECCM instead of sensor boosters (because ECM is much more common than damps).
Of course, if not for logistics' tendency to fit ECCM, ECM would do a better job anyway  .
You'll still get shot really fast, but hey, you knew that the moment you set foot in an EWAR ship :)
________________
Originally by: CCP Incognito
PS the "time to P*nis" is the shortest time recorded in human history. :)
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Yinjin
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Posted - 2010.01.29 11:58:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Sumelar
Originally by: Demolishar
Add a TD which nerfs missiles and I'll be happy. Oh and give my Curse a bonus for it
use defender's and smartbomb's.
fixed...
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Kendon Riddick
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Posted - 2010.01.29 12:54:00 -
[23]
wtb: FOF navy antimatter L rounds.
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Grimpak
Gallente
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2010.01.29 12:57:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Yinjin
Originally by: Sumelar
Originally by: Demolishar
Add a TD which nerfs missiles and I'll be happy. Oh and give my Curse a bonus for it
use defender's and smartbomb's.
fixed...
yeah and that works nicely...
there's a reason why I haven't trained defender skill past 3. they have been b0rked since like 2006 or so.
and smartbombs might've helped also 'till 2006, but when they changed missiles, they became moot.
also, don't forget that for torps you need 3 defenders, meaning that nothing short of a large smartbomb to kill them, if you even manage to get a hit on them with the speed they have that is.
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Quote:
The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
Exlegion
Caldari
Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2010.01.29 12:57:00 -
[25]
Target Painters are my worst enemy in low sec. I rather be ECM-jammed by NPCs than painted.
And I also use painters on my ship. Painters are extremely useful.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Yinjin
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Posted - 2010.01.29 13:13:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Kendon Rid****
wtb: FOF navy antimatter L rounds.
WTB: EM shield resist bonus for Caldari ships, just like the other "shield tank" race 
Originally by: Grimpak
Originally by: Yinjin
Originally by: Sumelar
Originally by: Demolishar
Add a TD which nerfs missiles and I'll be happy. Oh and give my Curse a bonus for it
use defender's and smartbomb's.
fixed...
yeah and that works nicely...
there's a reason why I haven't trained defender skill past 3. they have been b0rked since like 2006 or so.
and smartbombs might've helped also 'till 2006, but when they changed missiles, they became moot.
also, don't forget that for torps you need 3 defenders, meaning that nothing short of a large smartbomb to kill them, if you even manage to get a hit on them with the speed they have that is.
good point's Grim, perhap's the problem is with defender's and sb's rather than with ewar in general but as you say those problems have been around a long time and will probably never be fixed.
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Shaemell Buttleson
Euphoria Released
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Posted - 2010.01.29 13:31:00 -
[27]
I've often thought that if the launcher that holds the defenders could be activated and left on like sensor booster or tracking computer then they might be a bit more useful.
Because coupled with the fact they are pretty crappy anyway you just can't tell if a ship is shooting you or firing missiles (with the obvious exceptions of ships like Ravens etc)
Other than that maybe just get rid of the things altogether like they did with mines.
Sorry to keep on the thread derailing btw!
* Please resize your signature to the maximum file size of 24000 bytes. - CCP Ildoge
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P3rv3rt
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Posted - 2010.01.29 15:57:00 -
[28]
i hate ECM, totally overpowered
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1600 RT
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Posted - 2010.01.29 20:48:00 -
[29]
the problem is ECM do what damp and TD do but better on bonused ships.
TP are just a toy for missle users (not very minmatar)
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Radcjk
Failed Diplomacy
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Posted - 2010.01.29 21:12:00 -
[30]
Originally by: 1600 RT
the problem is ECM do what damp and TD do but better on bonused ships.
TP are just a toy for missle users (not very minmatar)
Learn what TP's do for enemy sig / your tracking, and apply that to a race whos close range / dps weapons fight in fall off.
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1600 RT
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Posted - 2010.01.29 22:00:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Radcjk
Originally by: 1600 RT
the problem is ECM do what damp and TD do but better on bonused ships.
TP are just a toy for missle users (not very minmatar)
Learn what TP's do for enemy sig / your tracking, and apply that to a race whos close range / dps weapons fight in fall off.
if you worried about tracking a web is far more effective than a painter even on painter bonused ship (ex. rapier).
fighting in falloff or optimal is the same for what regard tracking.
not for nothing you never see rapiers or huggins with painters they are just not worth a slot.
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Chana Kor
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.01.30 23:30:00 -
[32]
This was explained better by someone else in a similar thread, but I guess it needs repeating here.
Yes, ECM is probably the most powerful form of Ewar. But consider these points:
1) They're a midslot module, meaning that ECM ships can't tank. Every propulsion or tackle mod we mount is one less ECM module.
2) Without ECM, the Caldari have the weakest lineup of PVP ships. Our BSes don't RR well, and half of our ships use missiles. Try bringing a missile boat to a fleet; due to their travel time, most FCs will send you back to get something with guns. Gallente get huge drone bonuses; Amarr melt your face with laz0rs; Caldari get ECM. Fair's fair. |
Carniflex
StarHunt
Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2010.01.31 11:06:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Dr Fighter
its only really damps that need to be looked at imo.
painters definitly do work and do get used.
TDs work very well, just one on any turret ship that isnt piont blank, has a massive effect.
ECM - still arguably too strong (the effect itself) but other wise the most popular form of EW
damps need 2-3 on a single target to have an effective result.
WTF has EW got to do with railguns!! GTFO troll!
Damps are not 'the best' at the moment but they do have their uses. When the current Scorpion was implemented I did the math on damps vs ECM on scorpion and the difference at fleet ranges was relatively small, if the scorpion bonus would be 5% smaller then damps would be better than ECM on Scorpion. The Dampeners are actually sort of reasonable on Rokh and to some extent even on Raven (altho raven uses usually painters instead in fleets).
What might justify looking however is the ship bonuses to damps. They seem (I must admit I have no personal experience in it) a bit weakish on dampener bonused ships on paper at those ranges those ships are supposed to work.
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