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yfz3r0 Caldari TunDraGon	Posted - 2010.02.16 15:40:00 - [211] Originally by: Magna Star Edited by: Magna Star on 16/02/2010 09:04:58 Originally by: yfz3r0 One thing people need to stop doing is believing that the price of the Dramiel has anything to do with whether or not it needs balancing. CCP determines the stats of the Dramiel, but not the price. The fact that players control the price means that at any given moment, if wished, the traders could drive the price down to 10 ISK if they wanted to. That is incorrect, the price is determined by the opportunity cost of what other items you can also sell with that same LP. CCP has complete control over the price of everything in the game. They have shown they can change the price of any item in Eve many times over (T3 ships is a perfect example). The Dramiel is a fad at the moment due to all the hype, I just bought one myself because of the hype around it. However, you still need your Snipe HACs, RR BS, and so on. The cost is also pretty steep which starts to effect the wallet over time. The ship will never dominate Eve the way Vagas and Falcons did. Yes, the Vagabond dominated during the nano-age because nanos were un-balanced. What happened to them? They got balanced. -----------
Magna Star	Posted - 2010.02.16 17:43:00 - [212] Originally by: yfz3r0 Originally by: Magna Star Edited by: Magna Star on 16/02/2010 09:04:58 Originally by: yfz3r0 One thing people need to stop doing is believing that the price of the Dramiel has anything to do with whether or not it needs balancing. CCP determines the stats of the Dramiel, but not the price. The fact that players control the price means that at any given moment, if wished, the traders could drive the price down to 10 ISK if they wanted to. That is incorrect, the price is determined by the opportunity cost of what other items you can also sell with that same LP. CCP has complete control over the price of everything in the game. They have shown they can change the price of any item in Eve many times over (T3 ships is a perfect example). The Dramiel is a fad at the moment due to all the hype, I just bought one myself because of the hype around it. However, you still need your Snipe HACs, RR BS, and so on. The cost is also pretty steep which starts to effect the wallet over time. The ship will never dominate Eve the way Vagas and Falcons did. Yes, the Vagabond dominated during the nano-age because nanos were un-balanced. What happened to them? They got balanced. And the Vagabond was doing around 60k Kills/Month when it got nerfed (based on eve-kill), the Dramiel is currently doing around 15K Kills/Month. There are 8 ships now that currently kill more then the Dramiel. The Dramiel has a long way to go to match the numbers of past nerfed ships. Maybe Dramiels are more popular in FW (not in FW), but in Nullsec you see 1-2 in some gangs, but they are far from being the dominant ship in space.
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2010.02.16 17:53:00 - [213] Originally by: Magna Star And the Vagabond was doing around 60k Kills/Month when it got nerfed (based on eve-kill), the Dramiel is currently doing around 15K Kills/Month. There are 8 ships now that currently kill more then the Dramiel. The Dramiel has a long way to go to match the numbers of past nerfed ships. Maybe Dramiels are more popular in FW (not in FW), but in Nullsec you see 1-2 in some gangs, but they are far from being the dominant ship in space. They need not be a dominant ship globally, they just need to be a dominant ship in their niche. I'll try to explain it plainly, since you seem to be continually missing the point: If an Avatar did 10 times the Doomsday damage of the other titans, you still wouldn't see Avatars dong 60K kills a month. However, Avatars would still be overpowered within their niche and would need to be balanced. Got it now? ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Magna Star	Posted - 2010.02.16 18:11:00 - [214] Originally by: Merdaneth Originally by: Magna Star And the Vagabond was doing around 60k Kills/Month when it got nerfed (based on eve-kill), the Dramiel is currently doing around 15K Kills/Month. There are 8 ships now that currently kill more then the Dramiel. The Dramiel has a long way to go to match the numbers of past nerfed ships. Maybe Dramiels are more popular in FW (not in FW), but in Nullsec you see 1-2 in some gangs, but they are far from being the dominant ship in space. They need not be a dominant ship globally, they just need to be a dominant ship in their niche. I'll try to explain it plainly, since you seem to be continually missing the point: If an Avatar did 10 times the Doomsday damage of the other titans, you still wouldn't see Avatars dong 60K kills a month. However, Avatars would still be overpowered within their niche and would need to be balanced. Got it now? Ok, let me explain this to you plainly. Below are similar ships (tackling frigs)... Ship / Kills (past 30 days) Dramiel 14,873 Stiletto 13,981 Taranis 13,403 Crow 12,749 Rifter 12,123 The Dramiel does not do that much more kills then the Stiletto/Taranis/Crow/Rifter. So it is FAR from being dominant in its 'niche'. I see a few saying it is hugely popular in Factional Warfare, that is something I can't speak on. But, my point, is that the Dramiel is not an Eve game changer like the Vaga and Falcon was nor did it dominate Eve in the same way.
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.02.16 18:42:00 - [215] Originally by: Magna Star The Dramiel does not do that much more kills then the Stiletto/Taranis/Crow/Rifter. So it is FAR from being dominant in its 'niche'. Considering that the buy-in price is 100M+, that it is supposedly 'rare', that the attrition rate approaches zero as pilot/gear improves, that it features on more mails than the fleet BS du jour the mighty Apocalypse, that it is even on the damn tackling frig list! Not sure what you consider "dominating" but that sure as hell equals dominating to me. Hell if you remove the standard null-sec roam (Zeal, Vaga, Sabre, Rapier) and the best bang-for-buck (BC's) ships you are left with just the Megathron being higher on that list. For a rare expensive hull it sure gets around!
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2010.02.16 18:42:00 - [216] Originally by: Magna Star ... Getting on killmail and getting kill are 2 different things.
Viibl Triibl	Posted - 2010.02.16 18:47:00 - [217] Originally by: Magna Star Ok, let me explain this to you plainly. Below are similar ships (tackling frigs)... Ship / Kills (past 30 days) Dramiel 14,873 Stiletto 13,981 Taranis 13,403 Crow 12,749 Rifter 12,123 The Dramiel does not do that much more kills then the Stiletto/Taranis/Crow/Rifter. So it is FAR from being dominant in its 'niche'. I see a few saying it is hugely popular in Factional Warfare, that is something I can't speak on. But, my point, is that the Dramiel is not an Eve game changer like the Vaga and Falcon was nor did it dominate Eve in the same way. Aren't Drams less common than the others? I wonder, if you adjusted for the # of Drams getting those kills vs. the number of Tarani behind their kills, you'd see a far higher kills per ship for Dram compared to others. Just a thought.
Grimpak Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2010.02.16 19:10:00 - [218] Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Considering that the buy-in price is 100M+ wrong. it's actually around 75-85mil. dunno where you're getting your data. the daredevil however costs arround 105-125mil oh and don't come with "OMG fittings!" thing, if we went that way the daredevil would cost actually almost 200mil. --- Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.02.16 19:24:00 - [219] Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Considering that the buy-in price is 100M+ wrong. it's actually around 75-85mil. dunno where you're getting your data. the daredevil however costs arround 105-125mil Pfft, I know. But since no one except the delirious and/or drunk un-dock in unfitted ships I added the 15-25M which is the standard Dramiel fit these days (faction drives, rest T2) .. hence the 100M+.
Tekutep	Posted - 2010.02.16 19:31:00 - [220] I know a curse can munch a dramiel, but that's cruiser vs frig. How do yall think a sentinel would do against a dramiel?
Grimpak Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2010.02.16 20:26:00 - [221] Originally by: Tekutep I know a curse can munch a dramiel, but that's cruiser vs frig. How do yall think a sentinel would do against a dramiel? stalemate. sentinel would wtfpwn the drams drones, and the dram would wtfpwn the sentinel's drones. if the sentinel has a TD, the drones would probably survive tho, but unless the dram would go for 15km range, I think both would fail to do damage to each other. --- Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2010.02.16 21:32:00 - [222] Originally by: Magna Star Ok, let me explain this to you plainly. Below are similar ships (tackling frigs)... Ship / Kills (past 30 days) Dramiel 14,873 Stiletto 13,981 Taranis 13,403 Crow 12,749 Rifter 12,123 The Dramiel does not do that much more kills then the Stiletto/Taranis/Crow/Rifter. So it is FAR from being dominant in its 'niche'. I'm glad you agree that comparing it to raw shipkill stats is meaningless. We also agree the Dramiel is currently in the top spot considering its 'competition bracket'. Additionally, it achieves this top position with only a fraction of the losses that the Stiletto and Taranis (the next contenders) have. This some two months after its introduction. These numbers would certainly make a good argument for the 'overpowered' position. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Ko Shimin Minmatar Infinite Improbability Inc Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2010.02.17 10:36:00 - [223] Quote: Ship / Kills (past 30 days) Dramiel 14,873 Stiletto 13,981 Taranis 13,403 Crow 12,749 Rifter 12,123 Hehe!!! And you guys argue about the Dramiel.. What's wrong in the above picture??? Is there a t1 frig in that top??? Best frig of all time! Perfect slot layout! Perfect bonuses! Good speed! Cheaper than a prostitute! Buy your Rifter today!!!
Cearain Caldari ReSlavers	Posted - 2010.02.17 17:27:00 - [224] Originally by: Merdaneth Originally by: Cearain Given the fact that that there are only 4 pirate faction frigs we should hope that at least one ship in that class can compete with the other frigs in popularity. There are 8 inties to chose from. There are 8 afs, and several different t1 frigs. If there were only 4 of each of the latter types the dram wouldn't do as well compartively. I mean if there were only 4 t1 frigs you could fly then the numbers for each frig in that class would be very large. Same goes for afs and inties. I see more Dramiels than any kind of interceptor. I see far more Dramiels than any other pirate frig. I see far more Dramiels than any faction frigate. I see far more Dramiels than any kind of AF. I see far more Dramiels than any kind of T1 frig except for the Rifter. I see about the same number of Dramiels as I see Thrashers. ..... I don't know what to say. I see many more afs interceptors t1 frigs than I see dramiels. I assume your flying in the same places I am since we both are in Amarr Militia. Dramiel is most common pirate frig I agree there. It is llikely more common than the most common faction frig as well. But I think I see more faction frigs as a whole than dramiels. I looked through about 5 of your last kills loses on the amarr killboard and didn't see many dramiels compared to ceptors and afs. Are you posting your kills to the amarr militia killboard? http://www.amarr-empire.net/killboard/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=21661
Proxyyyy Caldari The Tuskers	Posted - 2010.02.17 20:40:00 - [225] Edited by: Proxyyyy on 17/02/2010 20:41:37 Thank you Cearain for linking his stats. What i can tell quickly is that he's a cautious pvp'er and doesnt realy take chances or atleast of the times he does he hasnt realy payed for it. Looking at all his losses to about 09 nov, he never lost to a dramiel ever! Thats unless ive missed something? It was obvious about a page back that he hates dramiel's and i think he said something to that effect. If i was to gauge his cont arguments. I may find alot of bitterness that his target pool has been further limited while being very limited in target selection to begin with. I do agree that within minmatar/amarr space you see more dramiels than you do in Gallente/Caldari space. In caldari/gallente space its more deverse and you tend to see daredevils, curors, comets, hookbills, worms, slicers and dramiels. In minmatar/amarr space its alot of slicers, firetails and drameiels. But in both areas of low sec af's, interceptors, t1 frigs, destroyers, and stealthbombers are used more often than the dramiel by a wide margin IMO! For me certain ship classes play a specific role and cant realy encroach in the other classes. When i see a gang of rifters and im currently in a Intceptor/Claw . I could try and atempt to seperate them and if not possible, what then? My interceptor has alot of dps/speed, but has the tank of a t1 frig. So its not all to wise to just go in and slug it out with that gang. What if i was near one of my bases with extra ships to choose from? Fine i go to egg and i have 2 ship classes to choose from that (A) wont scare them away (B) Enable me to whip my butt with them! The destroyer and af class. Both classes give me heavy tank and dps to be able to slug it out with those numbers. So i choose a wolf with a 400mmplate/repper and go in and atempt to ** face. I dont need to tell others that certain ships excel in different circumstances. Another example would be the diffrence between a mrym and a hurricane. The hurricane is agile with weak tank and alot of dps. When up against a gang of 3 bc's (one being a drake) its abilties are more usefull against a single bc or a small gang of 1 - 4 cruisers. But with the mrym you can just go in there and ** face! It doest realy need to move because of its awsome tank and good dps. The dramiel does not have the ability to just bullrush into a gang of 4 rifters sh!t on there faces and leave the field! It is a tempered elegant weapon, not a blunt object! So i dont believe it can compete effectively in the af's specific role as a heavily tanked/dps platform with mediocre speed and agility. It is however able to compete and dominates the interceptors role almost completely! So does the daredevil and comet. The cruor is the only pirate faction frig that can operate effectively in both the af and interceptor roles IMO. That is basically my thinking behind the whole dramiel "Overpowered" thing. Its abilities are to overblown by pilots who watch to much pvp video's and dont put what they see into context and thoughs who know that a drameil given to a mediocre pilot is not a easy kill....
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2010.02.17 20:50:00 - [226] Originally by: Proxyyyy The cruor is the only pirate faction frig that can operate effectively in both the af and interceptor roles IMO. Lolwat? Originally by: Proxyyyy When up against a gang of 3 bc's... But with the mrym you can just go in there and **** face! It doest realy need to move because of its awsome tank and good dps. And then you meet competent pvpers and die in 30 secs.
Proxyyyy Caldari The Tuskers	Posted - 2010.02.17 21:06:00 - [227] And then you meet competent pvpers and die in 30 secs. Im glad you said the above = ) Because you dont meet alot of thoughs your able to do things like that. When you put certain things into context it doesnt seem all that great anymore! Which one of my corpmates found out when i tried to explain to him that a dramiel up against a rupture flown well is not a good idea! Requiring almost complete ******ation by the pilot to lose that fight or atleast get away. But i went along with the dramiel v rupture test. He now understands their are serious limitions. While im not saying he wont find a bad vaga pilot that will just keel over and die! The chances of him doing it to one that knows what he's doing and spamming warp while he's neuting when scram drops even for a sec! Will prolly get away. Anyways! Dramiel not a big deal...
Cearain Caldari ReSlavers	Posted - 2010.02.17 21:12:00 - [228] Originally by: chrisss0r So we agree that price is a very important balancing factor in eve and we also see that a 100m faction frigate is the most flown frigate out there by people who actually get killmails. And there are still people trying to claim it is not overpowered? i don't see nightmares be the most commonly used battleship. why? The price balances it out. The dramiel on the other hand is so ****ing overpowered that even a 100m frigate pricetag cannot balance it making it the most flown frige in the game (LOL.) I always considered a high pricetag on a ship to be a disadvantage. As far as not seeing nightmares in pvp I think its too bad. The same is true of black ops BS's. they either need to get buffs or they need to have their price drop. If you want the dramiel to be another ship no one ever uses then go ahead a nerf it without lowering the price. That way everyone will have to fly reguar t1 ships and eve will become stale. I personally think most of the whining about the dramiel are from people who are too cheap to pay for it. They are jealous that people who are willing to risk large amounts of isk are having fun.
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.02.17 21:30:00 - [229] Originally by: Proxyyyy Thank you Cearain for linking his stats. What i can tell quickly is that he's a cautious pvp'er and doesnt realy take chances or atleast of the times he does he hasnt realy payed for it. Looking at all his losses to about 09 nov, he never lost to a dramiel ever! Thats unless ive missed something? It is called relevance. Dramiel was not exactly an issue last year, now was it? Same as saying that "after carefully checking all data up until 1922, I can now confidently say that no human has ever been killed by a nuclear weapon". 4 Rifter's die hands down to a competent combat interceptor especially against the Claw; first two because they are ******s and charge you .. third because he gets too far away from his surviving buddy, 4th will probably have run before its his turn so make that 3 Rifter's Have done it in both tanked Crusaders and Slicers, separating the weak and foolish from a herd isn't too hard. I can only assume it is infinitely easier to do in a Dramiel as it has 3-4 times the speed, twice the tank, faster lock, spare cap, free highslot and drones. Dramiel's or the presence of them disallows any chance you might have to do this due to the insane speed advantage. During the ten seconds it takes to nuke a Rifter a Dramiel can travel 70-80km .. no way to pull a group that far apart unless they are complete morons. Both Cruor and Daredevil have a severe handicap in their cap dependency, lack of drones and rational speeds, ie. they are balanced with loads of counters. Same can not be said for the foul one.
praznimrak Gallente Level Up	Posted - 2010.02.17 21:39:00 - [230] Edited by: praznimrak on 17/02/2010 21:39:13 Statistics or not dram is way to power........it has spead,dps,tank,falloff,dron bay and ther is nothing similar in whole univers if we watch frig hull. Most of ships have or dps,or tank.taranis have awsom dps but fallof is crap,no tank and 2 dronse,and sems fair inuff after all it is a gallent ship but dram will kill taranis in no time. name any other frig hull that can stand dram,and in the ende if it do,dram have inuff means of escaping ,being by spead,by ecm dronse,it allways get from batellfield if necesari.So honestly speaking nerf that ship now,or ill put it beter way.....BALANCE IT. THX
Cearain Caldari ReSlavers	Posted - 2010.02.17 21:46:00 - [231] Originally by: Proxyyyy Edited by: Proxyyyy on 17/02/2010 20:49:26 .... The dramiel does not have the ability to just bullrush into a gang of 4 rifters sh!t on there faces and leave the field! The dramiel is a tempered elegant weapon, not a blunt object! So i dont believe it can compete effectively in the af's specific role as a heavily tanked/dps platform with mediocre speed and agility. It is however able to compete and dominates the interceptors role almost completely! So does the daredevil and comet. ..... I pretty much agree with everything you said. I quoted this part because I disagree a bit. While I agree the dramiel can do pretty much everything a ceptor can do - and usually better (I haven't compared sensor strength and things like that) I still think ceptors have a place. The reason is because ceptors are much cheaper. Faction battleships are usually just better than regular t1 battlships in every respect. However because faction battleships cost much more, t1 battleships still have a role. The same is true of t1 cruisers and faction cruisers etc. Price is a drawback to the dramiel just as it is a drawback to many ships. If you want to ignore price then many ships must be considered "overpowered" including all the faction BS/cruisers, super capitals and t3 ships. If people want all ships to cost the same and operate about equally thats fine, but IMO that would make eve a dull place.
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2010.02.17 22:10:00 - [232] Edited by: Merdaneth on 17/02/2010 22:09:45 Originally by: Cearain I looked through about 5 of your last kills loses on the amarr killboard and didn't see many dramiels compared to ceptors and afs. Are you posting your kills to the amarr militia killboard? No, don't post kills or losses on militia killboard. But, what I've seen the last two weeks, Dramiel count has actually gone down in my FW area. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Proxyyyy Caldari The Tuskers	Posted - 2010.02.17 22:16:00 - [233] Im fairly sure my observations were indeed relevent. (A) he Stated he has lost his ships in a number of engagements with drams. (B)if i remember correctly (without goig back and checking) he or someone else misrepresented him, by saying he takes alot of risk! Also im not gunna misrepresent pvp by essentially saying that pilots will always do what i want them to do all the time. Not every gang i engage will come out and let me pick them off or atleast after one goes down the rest will cont to make the same mistake = / Last night i tried to take on a gang of 35 frigates from Dreddit corporation in theyre home system! No i was not able to engage them on a gate because its low sec and im a pirate. In null/Wardec/Faction warfare it would have been able to take out 1 or to while they chased me threw system's. Not to mention i couldnt effectively engage them by separating them on grid because they all had mwd's and apprently most had full tackle from the 2 i killed and 2 others that ran. Not to mention multi ships are warping in and out of grid. I tried to bring them to a faction warfare plex 2 times and failed! When they finaly decided to send frigs to my plex to bait. they found after 2 ship losses and a third that got away becuase of (multiple tacklers inbound and i had to boogy) that they couldnt warp to each other when in a fw plex. Then they left. Not good pilots in anycase so it doesnt mean much. Fraps'ed btw! Sh!t like that doesnt happen every freaking day! Not everyday you get people to keel over and die because you want them too and pilots tend to wise up after awhile. So within my scenario where the rifters did not leave the group. All i could do is charge in and die while taking down maybe 1 - 2 if lucky! Or get into a ship that excels in that situation. Otherwise i leave and nothing dies... Also what ceptor can cap the daredevil or curor? The claw? They have the cap of a destroyer not to mention they dictate range when in theyre sphere of influence (Webber). The daredevil with null hurts like a mofo! The curor will be taking almost no damage while having the tank/dps of a af! Caping these ships is not as easy as saying it. It takes above class ships like a rupture or vexor to cap pirate frigs. Also the dramiel doesnt need drones to still be uber. Unless 151dps without drones is bad?
Jack Icegaard The Omega Project	Posted - 2010.02.17 22:45:00 - [234] Edited by: Jack Icegaard on 17/02/2010 22:54:17 Originally by: Cearain If you want the dramiel to be another ship no one ever uses then go ahead a nerf it without lowering the price. That way everyone will have to fly reguar t1 ships and eve will become stale. I have not seen anyone argue that the Dramiel should be nerfed to the point where no one use it. There are some thirty T2 frigates and quite a few other faction frigates (Not to mention all the other ships in eve). And if the Dramiel were to be toned down we all have to fly t1 ships and eve becomes stale? That seem a bit overdramatic.. Originally by: Cearain I personally think most of the whining about the dramiel are from people who are too cheap to pay for it. They are jealous that people who are willing to risk large amounts of isk are having fun. Many of the ships commonly used in pvp, including all the T2 cruisers, requires a larger isk investment and risk than the Dramiel. And the Dramiel is one of the most survivable ship there is. So, why are those jealous people not whining about all the other ships they do not dare to fly? Why single out the Dramiel amongst all the good ships they don't dare to fly and are jealous about?
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2010.02.17 22:53:00 - [235] Cynoball is nearly the same op, just compare it to the lol phantasm or gila. A 20% cut to autocannons dps would make it balanced.
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2010.02.17 23:03:00 - [236] Edited by: Omara Otawan on 17/02/2010 23:03:46 Originally by: Naomi Knight Cynoball is nearly the same op, just compare it to the lol phantasm or gila. A 20% cut to autocannons dps would make it balanced. Same possible solutions for Cynabal as for Dramiel tbh: 1) increase mass and thus lower speed OR 2) remove some of the WTFOP fittings, Cynabal can fit triple extender, medium neut AND a rack of the heaviest turrets, lower that to dual extender + 180s and its fine.
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2010.02.17 23:08:00 - [237] Originally by: Omara Otawan Edited by: Omara Otawan on 17/02/2010 23:03:46 Originally by: Naomi Knight Cynoball is nearly the same op, just compare it to the lol phantasm or gila. A 20% cut to autocannons dps would make it balanced. Same possible solutions for Cynabal as for Dramiel tbh: 1) increase mass and thus lower speed OR 2) remove some of the WTFOP fittings, Cynabal can fit triple extender, medium neut AND a rack of the heaviest turrets, lower that to dual extender + 180s and its fine. Could work , I would choose the lower speed/agility, there are the vagabond/ceptors for that role.
Onin Ra 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2010.02.17 23:23:00 - [238] Cynabal is okay, sure it completely replaces Vagabond, costs like chips and has better agility than a ranis with only one nano. The reason they are used more than other frigs is because you can engage at safe distance and risk less. Nobody wants to pay 350m for Vigilant and lose to a blob the same day. --- First pvp expirience in eve is alot like having first sex, you have absolutely no idea what you are doing, but it is exciting and one way or another its over way too fast.
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2010.02.17 23:31:00 - [239] Same with ashimu heh. Fast ship that engages outside scram range and its very fast is in reality very "cheap." And dramiel, that can leave scram range /and disruptor range too/ of most ships at will is even more "cheap."
Seareus Teleid	Posted - 2010.02.18 07:22:00 - [240] While this is total theory crafting, the only thing that I could say was a bit obscene about the bonuses it gets is the 100% dmg bonus. The dual-prop thing makes it pretty unique and cool, but to have THAT much dmg on top of it is probably a little much. I'm not suggesting neutering it by any means, like many of these little whine babies. If it was dropped down to 75%, it would still be a very hard hitting frigate, without completely shafting the dmg of T2 frigs.

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