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Zabby Gabby
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Posted - 2010.02.28 10:28:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Zabby Gabby on 28/02/2010 10:28:13
Ok... so everyone knows there is pretty much no point mining in low sec, thanks to the reward/danger ratio being really bad compared to highsec.
I would have thought that if all low-sec stations are given better refining percentages than any high-sec station, people would be more willing to mine and refine there. (Maby even the lower the sec status, the better)
E.g. In 0.4 Sec, stations would give you 20% more mins for your ore. And then up to 50% more mins in 0.1 sec.
Two things would happen because of this:
1) There would be many more miners in low-sec to cash in on the profits, as the reward/danger ratio is not nearly as bad.
2) There would be many haulers full of ore coming to low-sec to refine their minerals.
I would have though this would populate low-sec much more with miners/haulers.
What does everyone think?
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Lord Dralos
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Posted - 2010.02.28 13:18:00 -
[2]
i already get 100% mining refinement in high sec so i still see no need to go to low sec for anything.
let alone take a hulk and orca to mine in space where miners and industrialist know that they are the primary targets for all the incentives to go mine in low sec would have to be massive for me to want to risk whats in essence about 500 to 1 billion isks worth depending on whats in cargo bays, rigs etc.
i find its much safer to travel and mine in worm holes where i dont appear in local and i just got to keep an eye on the directional for probes and incomming warships.
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shady trader
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Posted - 2010.02.28 14:05:00 -
[3]
The only way this would work is if you get more then the 100% that is available in hi-sec.
Then there is no way to make sure the ore is mined in low sec, if its profitable people would haul the ore in to be refined.
The near by 0.0 people would just jump there compressed ore right next to the station and dock, refine, undock and jump out of the system again.
The only way this would work is if CCP replaced all the low sec ores with something similar to the mission ores, the difference being that they can be refined.
Given that you want the low the sec the better the refine each sec level would have to have its own versions.
Plus currently its more profitable to mine the very hi-sec ores 0.9 to 0.8 then it is the mid sec. You have to go to good 0.0 to beat the isk per hour once you take ship losses into account.
Macrointel, the place were the nature order of the universe does not hold sway. Pirates and ore thief's are congratulated by carebears for the actions. |
Cygwin Gaad
Caldari
The Element Syndicate
Hand That Feeds
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Posted - 2010.02.28 14:16:00 -
[4]
nope. that wouldnt even tempt even the carebearyest miners in eve.
miners want security, that doesnt exist in lowsec. its almost fundamentally unfixable. unless you can anchor some sort of defense structure in a belt there will be no security and therefore no incentive great enough to risk several million isk worth of unprotected mining vessel to the coldness of lowsec space.
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Slade Hoo
Amarr
Corpse Collection Point
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Posted - 2010.02.28 14:18:00 -
[5]
ok. Then what about mining in highsec/nullsec and refining in 0.1 then? Isn't much of logistics for alot of people.
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Make Lowsec useful! Vote in the CSM-Forum! |
Lord Dralos
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Posted - 2010.02.28 14:26:00 -
[6]
i totally agree with you there the fact that most miners and industrialists ships cost so much to be risked in low sec is insane unless you can get a security force to come with you which more often than not you cant as most pew pewers get very bored very quickly and want to shoot stuff so they go off not to mention that if you try to warp out the likes of an orca takes years to engange th enegines and can be easily knocked off alignment by a fast frig that ends up locking you up for his bigger friends to come in and finish you the risk to profit factors go something like this in low sec.
risk -10 profit +2 do a simple division and you get -8.
so basicly untill we miners/industrialists get some stuff going our way for a change low sec can stay dead of players as far as we are concerned.
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Lord Dralos
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Posted - 2010.03.01 19:17:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Lord Dralos on 01/03/2010 19:19:24
a friend of mines the other day said that the easiest way to attract mining and hauling ships into low sec is to re-classify them as T1 ships that way they can be insured.
which funny enough if i could insure my ship for 100% return id be more inclined to go to low sec to mine but as likes of hulks are T2 and insurance on T2 sucks no way im gonna waste time and assets going to low sec.
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XXSketchxx
Gallente
Remote Soviet Industries
Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2010.03.01 19:45:00 -
[8]
Edited by: XXSketchxx on 01/03/2010 19:45:52
 Originally by: Lord Dralos
Edited by: Lord Dralos on 01/03/2010 19:19:24
a friend of mines the other day said that the easiest way to attract mining and hauling ships into low sec is to re-classify them as T1 ships that way they can be insured.
which funny enough if i could insure my ship for 100% return id be more inclined to go to low sec to mine but as likes of hulks are T2 and insurance on T2 sucks no way im gonna waste time and assets going to low sec.
This is just wrong. The reason miners don't go to low sec is because there is no reason to.
Few things need to change:
1. fix mission loot
2. fix drone compounds (change that crap to tags, like the sleepers)
3. INCREASED YIELD FROM ASTEROIDS IN LOWER SECURITY
On that last one. I'm not just talking dense veldspar giving 10% more. I'm talking "super uber veldspar" giving 50% more and maybe even 100% more in null sec. My numbers are probably off, but what I'm getting at is mining veldspar in 0.0 should be more worthwhile than mining veldspar in high sec.
If its only going to be valuable to mine ABCM ores in 0.0, why bother having the other ore there?
And FYI covetor doesn't mine that much less than a hulk, and is fully insurable. The simple matter of fact is that there is no reason to mine in low sec.
_____________________________________________
-Sketch, Certified Pharmacist
Need a Boost?
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Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari
Sane Industries Inc.
Initiative Mercenaries
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Posted - 2010.03.01 19:48:00 -
[9]
So if I start with one shuttle and a few BPO's at a low-sec station I could end up building 1000 dreads? Cool.
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Sig Sour
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Posted - 2010.03.01 20:08:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Sig Sour on 01/03/2010 20:08:18
Originally by: Zabby
GabbyOk... so everyone knows there is pretty much no point mining in low sec, thanks to the reward/danger ratio being really bad compared to highsec.
You are taking the wrong approach. It is worth mining in low sec, along with your balls you need to drop probes and find a grav site. You will find 0.0 ores in .4 sec, and if you figure out what you are doing you are SAFER in low sec than in high sec.
Your proposal would only be good for JF pilots.
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Tragu
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Posted - 2010.03.01 20:10:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab
So if I start with one shuttle and a few BPO's at a low-sec station I could end up building 1000 dreads? Cool.
Actually, if I'm reading the idea correctly (not supporting it yet but) then if you start with a shuttle and some BPOs in low sec, you end up with... A shuttle and BPOs in low sec. You need to mine the ore, remember?
Something about lowsec vs. null sec profitability for miners here.
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Pseudo Sasaya
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Posted - 2010.03.01 20:33:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Tragu
Actually, if I'm reading the idea correctly (not supporting it yet but) then if you start with a shuttle and some BPOs in low sec, you end up with... A shuttle and BPOs in low sec. You need to mine the ore, remember?
I am guessing the person is assuming that reprocessing would get the same bonuses as refining, thus resulting in more minerals recovered then put into the shuttle.
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HarveyBirdman Esquire
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Posted - 2010.03.01 21:09:00 -
[13]
Or, instead, nerf the yield on hisec ores. You can't fix a problem of oversupply by supplying more.
Case comma I'll take it!
-Harvey Birdman, Attorney at Law
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Sig Sour
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Posted - 2010.03.01 21:18:00 -
[14]
Yeah, really to make standard low sec belts more attractive, you need to make high sec less attractive. Which CCP recently buffed high sec belts so... wtf, this is a pointless battle. Separate servers for carebears is the ultimate solution.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.03.01 22:42:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Sig Sour
Yeah, really to make standard low sec belts more attractive, you need to make high sec less attractive. Which CCP recently buffed high sec belts so... wtf, this is a pointless battle. Separate servers for carebears is the ultimate solution.
Wrong Sour.
CCP increased Veldspar availability in high sec, no other ore.
That keep up all the other minerals price thank to the Insurance Exchange Rate (i.e. the isk you get when you self destruct a ship you have just build and insured).
Having abundant veldspar mean abundant tritanium, pushing down the price of tritanium. As thw insurance payout is constant and give a floor to the mineral basket used to build ships having a lot of tritanium mean that to get the insurance isk you need to buy more middle and high end, so the price of those increase.
If CCP hadn't increased the availability of veldspar in preparation for the 0.0 upgrades we would be suffering for even worse prices for all the other minerals and tritanium would be well above 3 isk/unit.
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Jerid Verges
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Posted - 2010.03.01 23:00:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Jerid Verges on 01/03/2010 23:00:33
This isn't about risk v reward it's about risk v reward.
The only way to make Lowsec attractive is to make it somehow, be able to be safer then it is. (But then pirates would whine and complain like no tomorrow).
Though, boosting lowsec minerals and nerfing drone regions would definitely need to happen as well. But doing that simply will not get people mining in lowsec.
It doesn't matter how much reward you offer, if it is too risky only those with the biggest of balls will take the risk. That is why lowsec is so unpopulated. Too much risk.
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Sig Sour
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Posted - 2010.03.01 23:27:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Wrong Sour.
CCP increased Veldspar availability in high sec, no other ore.
You say I am wrong and then prove me right. What gives?
If you said I was wrong and then said "They cut the respawn time for high sec belts in half." I would say, gee Mul, I am a fool, thanks for pointing that out. But that is not the case. CCP added more minerals to high sec, therefore giving less reason to go to low sec. Which I may remind you is the main topic here, not the economy.
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Sig Sour
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Posted - 2010.03.01 23:34:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Jerid Verges
It doesn't matter how much reward you offer, if it is too risky only those with the biggest of balls will take the risk. That is why lowsec is so unpopulated. Too much risk.
I am guessing that you are one of the people who, even when the Falcon (ticket out of losing any barges in low sec) was in its hay day, STILL had an impending fear of low sec?
Before you go making suggestions to fix low sec, I want to see some stats, because I think most of you are theory crafting here as you don't actually use low sec enough to know any dangers.
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De Guantanamo
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Posted - 2010.03.01 23:54:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Sig Sour
I think most of you are theory crafting here as you don't actually use low sec enough to know any dangers.
don't think there is a truer statement about high sec bears
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Dunn Idaho
Caldari
Core Impulse
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Posted - 2010.03.02 11:53:00 -
[20]
Just need to move some of the roids around, so there a uniqe roid in low sec.
Wich means, either ppl mine in low sec, or we dont get a certan ore.
Wich means the reward will be there, to cover the risk.
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King Rothgar
Violent By Design
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Posted - 2010.03.02 12:40:00 -
[21]
That is probably the best mining idea I've seen and yet it's so simple. Make it so only certain minerals can be had in different security zones. High sec get's the basic stuff, low sec get's intermediate and null get's high end. Make it so you only get low end from reprocessing. Thus if you want let's say isogen, you must go to low sec. There is no other way to get it as it can't be made from reprocessing anything or mining in high/null sec. Wonder if CCP would actually implement this. It would have serious repercussions on the market short term but would probably balance out in the end.
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Dantes Revenge
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.03.02 15:26:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Dantes Revenge on 02/03/2010 15:27:30
I've ninja mined in lowsec with a Retriever. Hey, Keta Min, it was me pinching all the Jaspet from your HQ system (Bridi) while you and you corp were in Ami, the next system camping the gate to highsec That was before transport ships and WTZ too.
What I can say is that, for the most part, the rewards are not nearly high enough to make it viable. Jaspet and Hemorphite are not exactly rich in Zydrine and you won't get anything better than Zydrine from lowsec. My income was probably somewhere near 0.001% better than I was making in highsec. Coupled with the increased risk of losing a ship, luckily I never did, it makes the risk far outweigh the rewards. Just losing one fitted Retriever back then at 15 million a time would have wiped out my 0.001% profits for a month. Take a T2 barge, even a Mackinaw or even a Skiff and you're probably looking at a whole year to recover the cost of losing it.
To make lowsec mining viable, it has got to be far more profitable than it currently is. The main problem is that the ore was originally spread to take into account that nullsec was more dangerous than lowsec. Unfortunately, that isn't the case any more but the rewards have never been altered. The only way to make it balanced to the way the danger is now would be to either vastly increase the amount of Zydrine each of those two ores produce or add a small amount of Megacyte into the cooking pot.
Currently, Jaspet and Hemorphite have a 500 unit batch refine amount, Jaspet produces only 8 units of Zydrine and Hemorphite produces only 28. This needs to be increased by a factor of at least 10 so that Jaspet has 80 Zydrine and Hemorphite has 280 Zydrine.
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GavinCapacitor
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Posted - 2010.03.02 16:17:00 -
[23]
Oh look its this thread again.
Joking aside, people always talk about risk vs. reward like it could be fixed. 100% more yeild from low sec veld? that would risk a hulk when a miner could just get 2 mining in high sec.
So: why not simply make us *need* something from low sec. A mineral that only spawns there (or something). Or reduce the amount of minerals in high sec. Force people to go there by reducing the risk vs reward in the other places.
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Jim Ned
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Posted - 2010.03.02 20:09:00 -
[24]
Does it really matter about boosts to low, 0.0, and worm hole mining if the mineral prices are so lousy?
If you want people to mine in these places, make it profitable again.
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Sig Sour
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Posted - 2010.03.02 20:43:00 -
[25]
Originally by: King Rothgar
Wonder if CCP would actually implement this.
No, because CCP actually stands for Carebear Catering Party.
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Dantes Revenge
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.03.03 00:03:00 -
[26]
Originally by: GavinCapacitor
So: why not simply make us *need* something from low sec. A mineral that only spawns there (or something). Or reduce the amount of minerals in high sec. Force people to go there by reducing the risk vs reward in the other places.
Because it's already been tried. Level5 missions anyone? Does anyone from highsec actually do them?
If a tier3 or a meta level tier2 (as someone suggested) comes out that requires certain "lowsec only" ingredients, there are enough corps already in lowsec who will mine the majority of what will be needed. Only when these items become the norm for most fits will the demand rise and that can take a long time. The demand for Morphite hasn't risen by much in two years since T2 items were introduced. Reprocessed loot from drone regions/missions accounts for some of that though.
From what I've seen, most highsec miners are solo players. Lowsec ninja mining is not profitable in any way without a substantial mega-boost which would unbalance the economy in favor of the corps already present in lowsec. I posted about the Zydrine boost then thought about it. It would become too profitable for the lowsec mining corps so I can't see that happening.
The only way I can possible think of doing it is to have a specialised ninja mining barge with LST (Limited Stealth Tech). Not a cloak but a scanner/targetting destabiliser. That means nobody will detect you on scanner unless they are using probes or are within 0.5 au. The targetting is destabilised by a signature mask that takes 3x longer than to lock a normal barge. That gives more chance for survivability for a miner who's on the ball. Offset this by having only the ability to fit 3x T1 strips due to CPU requirements for T2. Maybe a pre-fit system for high slots, no fitting slots, the strip lasers are just there as standard with the ship to prevent someone finding a way to fit T2 strips. A hold 3x that of a Hulk (effectively a jetcan). Other than that, it is the same as a Hulk attributes and slots but maybe a smudge less agile to offset the larger hold. However, making it too low agility puts it back on the danger list again. Skills the same as a Hulk, maybe an additional skill due to the the LST but possibly a small additional destabilising bonus per level.
The profit margin will be higher than the current ninja mining system that often means using a cruiser or a low cost retriever. Not having to warp back every three minutes with a full cargo means more time in the belt, also so pirates don't moan since they have more chances to catch them if they are in the belt for longer periods. They are just going to have to use a ship that has a very fast lock time to catch these barges.
No, it wouldn't help macro miners because, although it has a larger hold, it also only has T1 strips. With the same skill set as a Hulk, why use this instead to macro with?
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Sig Sour
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Posted - 2010.03.03 00:25:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Dantes Revenge
The only way I can possible think of doing it is to have a specialised ninja mining barge with LST (Limited Stealth Tech). Not a cloak but a scanner/targetting destabiliser. That means nobody will detect you on scanner unless they are using probes or are within 0.5 au.
Ask and you shall receive,. make sure you get the whole set. See you in low sec...
No not likely. Because most of you have the tools and have had the tools. The real thing keeping you from using low sec is your own fear, which is out of CCP's hands.
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InUrJita CheckinUrPrice
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Posted - 2010.03.03 00:57:00 -
[28]
Some possible solutions:
-- Alter the basket of minerals from refining to supply significantly fewer high end minerals, and significantly more low end ones (increases reward, counters some of the drone region issue without raping drone entities)
-- Make the non-Capital t2 mining vessels t1 for insurance purposes (reduce risk) ALTERNATIVELY rework them to be more "combat" focused (If pvp is less one-sided, miners will be less assiduous in avoiding it -- also, battlehulk victor!)
-- Decrease the spawn rates for all roids better than veldspar in hisec (increase reward)
-- Decrease spawn rates for veldspar in low/null (nobody wants to mine veld out there, why have it; also leaves the hisec mining corps with a niche, albeit a crummy one)
-- Remove hauler spawns from the game
As a more long term goal, create regional variations in non-veld asteroid appearance eg: plag appearing only in Pure Blind. Regional variations are "fun", and more importantly create a reason for inter-region trade, which means more traffic which means more targets.
Mix and match solutions as appropriate, best when used together for full effect.
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Lord Dralos
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Posted - 2010.03.04 17:10:00 -
[29]
i like how the pvpers love to denegrate the poor miners and haulers calling us carebears like thats a bad thing well us miners have asked for things to be made for mining ships to help them survive attacks from pretty much any ship out there as everyone knows who actually flys in a miner/hauling ship they are nothing more than pinyada's easy to break and generally full of delicious goodies.
the next problem is if you lose a warship at most you are losing what somewhere between 25 and 100 mill which unless your using T2 can be insured for 100% so totally no risks there of losing much isks and if things getting too hot for you guys you just hit your big red button which is get me the f*** out of here in 5 seconds or less warp drive.
now then as for us miners and haulers we press our big red button which might activate the warp drive and if we aint being scrammed or such like might get us out in about a minute or two before our glass tank falls apart.
which by the way our ships generally start at 100 mill and work their way up in isks the only one of the mining ships that even has a basic tank ability is the hulk and its T2 so your pretty much out of luck to insure it.
this is risk hundreds of millions of isks in low sec to be either jumped at gates scrammed in roid fields or just harrassed pretty much by everyone who want to have an easy and expencive kill for their kill boards.
you want to know what risk vs isks is like id like ccp to increase the initial costs of warships to equal that of mining and hauling ships then you could see the picture from our view point a little better.
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XXSketchxx
Gallente
Remote Soviet Industries
Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2010.03.04 18:05:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Lord Dralos
which by the way our ships generally start at 100 mill and work their way up in isks the only one of the mining ships that even has a basic tank ability is the hulk and its T2 so your pretty much out of luck to insure it.
this is risk hundreds of millions of isks in low sec to be either jumped at gates scrammed in roid fields or just harrassed pretty much by everyone who want to have an easy and expencive kill for their kill boards.
covetors cost like...10 mil? and are fully insurable
you dont have to use a hulk
the rest of your post follows this basic breakdown in understanding of the game so I won't bother to address its fallacies
_____________________________________________
-Sketch, Certified Pharmacist
Need a Boost?
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Lord Dralos
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Posted - 2010.03.04 18:41:00 -
[31]
actually you can buy covetors for around 17.5 mill add on lasers and rigs looking closer to 25 mill and still super easy to pop it still comes back to same thing i posted before risk vs isk.
try reading what i wrote also i was on about warship costs vs mining ship costs before you go into your little stupidity mode of trying to flame.
flamers are lame especially when they flame before they read imo.
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Abulurd Boniface
Gallente
Gangrel Mining and Security
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Posted - 2010.03.04 18:46:00 -
[32]
Originally by: XXSketchxx
covetors cost like...10 mil? and are fully insurable
you dont have to use a hulk
the rest of your post follows this basic breakdown in understanding of the game so I won't bother to address its fallacies
You don't know what you're talking about. Covetors will run about 17 mil. There is no way to give it a decent tank. An exhumer is very vulnerable, even if tanked, a barge can't be tanked at all. Also, and more importantly, the hold in a barge is significantly smaller than that of an exhumer. That means a lot more to-ing and fro-ing. The ore types that are worthy to be mined are extremely dense and fill up a hold in no time. For any significant volume, and volume is what it's all about if you're a miner, that means an unconscionable amount of times we have to go back and forth.
And all because -you- would have a chance to then blow up the ship.
Besides sneering at us because -we- have the balls to run the boat that has no defenses, not you, do you also think we're especially stupid?
For good to survive it suffices for evil to acquire a deadly, incapacitating disease. |
Reggie Stoneloader
JAFA Trade and Manufacturing Cooperative
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Posted - 2010.03.04 20:20:00 -
[33]
Flaming aside, why should ore be the draw for low-sec? It's a violent, chaotic place, more dangerous than most of 0.0, which is often secured by alliances with chokepoint sentries reporting threats several jumps before they can reach your Hulks and Ravens. 0.0 is where you should be doing advanced mining. The ore is better, the security is better, and since mining is a collective effort in most cases, the infrastructure is better. You pay some taxes and you might have to arrange to have your stuff jumped to market, but it's where the rocks are sweet and the gankers are largely held at bay by blob-power. Luring miners in their fragile boats out to low-sec space is just foolish to imagine.
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Crusades: Security Status |
Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.03.04 21:42:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Sig Sour
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Wrong Sour.
CCP increased Veldspar availability in high sec, no other ore.
You say I am wrong and then prove me right. What gives?
If you said I was wrong and then said "They cut the respawn time for high sec belts in half." I would say, gee Mul, I am a fool, thanks for pointing that out. But that is not the case. CCP added more minerals to high sec, therefore giving less reason to go to low sec. Which I may remind you is the main topic here, not the economy.
Let's see if you get it:
- veldspar (and only veldspar) re-spawn rate was buffed
- that push tritanium price down
- pushing tritanium price down push the other minerals up
- pushing the other minerals up help low sec
- that is the mineral basket at work.
Got it?
If you think that pushing tritanium availability up is a damage to low sec, you are really wrong.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.03.04 22:12:00 -
[35]
Originally by: XXSketchxx
Originally by: Lord Dralos
which by the way our ships generally start at 100 mill and work their way up in isks the only one of the mining ships that even has a basic tank ability is the hulk and its T2 so your pretty much out of luck to insure it.
this is risk hundreds of millions of isks in low sec to be either jumped at gates scrammed in roid fields or just harrassed pretty much by everyone who want to have an easy and expencive kill for their kill boards.
covetors cost like...10 mil? and are fully insurable
you dont have to use a hulk
the rest of your post follows this basic breakdown in understanding of the game so I won't bother to address its fallacies
and his "tank" (LOL) can be broken by a NPC.
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XXSketchxx
Gallente
Remote Soviet Industries
Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2010.03.04 22:42:00 -
[36]
Edited by: XXSketchxx on 04/03/2010 22:42:39
Originally by: Abulurd Boniface
And all because -you- would have a chance to then blow up the ship.
Besides sneering at us because -we- have the balls to run the boat that has no defenses, not you, do you also think we're especially stupid?
people like you are who give all carebears a bad name
this you/we crap...do you make these kind of stupid assumptions in real life too?...check out my posts and who I am...I've been a miner and still do it on occasion...not to mention the fact that I have a running thread on a T3 industrial
Okay so I was off by a bit in isk, sorry I haven't looked at the price in ages...the point is that the covetor is still a viable option that none of you accept because its not the OMGSUPERMINER that the hulk is.
Before wormholes came out, I mined in 0.0 with a covetor because it was worth it. Belt rats come in? Warp off. Hostiles in local? Dock up. No different than being in a combat pve ship. I've also done the rat tanked hulk in 0.0. There are risks, but as long as the rewards fit them, they are okay. The problem with low sec is not that the covetor or hulk are too weak, its simply that there is no damn point in mining in low sec (unless you find a hidden belt, but this should not be the only reason to mine there).
_____________________________________________
-Sketch, Certified Pharmacist
Need a Boost?
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XXSketchxx
Gallente
Remote Soviet Industries
Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2010.03.04 22:52:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Lord Dralos
actually you can buy covetors for around 17.5 mill add on lasers and rigs looking closer to 25 mill and still super easy to pop it still comes back to same thing i posted before risk vs isk.
try reading what i wrote also i was on about warship costs vs mining ship costs before you go into your little stupidity mode of trying to flame.
flamers are lame especially when they flame before they read imo.
okay we'll go back to your post
1. You assume Hulk is the only way to mine. This is wrong
2. You assume everyone uses T1 crap to fight. This is wrong
3. You are comparing PvP combat ships with industrial ships (PVE). Compare a ratting ship to a mining ship. Guess what? The end is going to be the same.
_____________________________________________
-Sketch, Certified Pharmacist
Need a Boost?
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Kharamete
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Posted - 2010.03.04 23:18:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Zabby Gabby
Edited by: Zabby Gabby on 28/02/2010 10:28:13
Ok... so everyone knows there is pretty much no point mining in low sec, thanks to the reward/danger ratio being really bad compared to highsec.
I would have thought that if all low-sec stations are given better refining percentages than any high-sec station, people would be more willing to mine and refine there. (Maby even the lower the sec status, the better)
E.g. In 0.4 Sec, stations would give you 20% more mins for your ore. And then up to 50% more mins in 0.1 sec.
Two things would happen because of this:
1) There would be many more miners in low-sec to cash in on the profits, as the reward/danger ratio is not nearly as bad.
2) There would be many haulers full of ore coming to low-sec to refine their minerals.
I would have though this would populate low-sec much more with miners/haulers.
What does everyone think?
I'll be honest - i find it highly amusing that when people whine about the population of lowsec they always request more miners and haulers, not more pvp'ers.
There is no freaking point for an industrialist to mine in lowsec. To fix that you would have to kill high sec AND 0.0, well at least the bit of 0.0 known as wormhole space. The adventurous industrialists sit down, look at the options, weigh the risks and rewards, and then always choose wormholespace before lowsec.
The reason is simple. Going to lowsec is suicide with near zero reward. Going to wormholespace is a manageable risk for higher rewards. You can still be killed in wh-space. Your situational awareness in wh-space is compromised without local. But, they key difference is, you can manage you risk there. You can't do so in lowsec.
The only fix you have to get more people into lowsec is to kill off wh-space, drastically nerf 0.0, and kill yields in high sec. Until that time, low sec will always be the option of last resort for the clever, and the graveyard for the dumb.
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XXSketchxx
Gallente
Remote Soviet Industries
Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2010.03.04 23:31:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Kharamete
I'll be honest - i find it highly amusing that when people whine about the population of lowsec they always request more miners and haulers, not more pvp'ers.
There is no freaking point for an industrialist to mine in lowsec. To fix that you would have to kill high sec AND 0.0, well at least the bit of 0.0 known as wormhole space. The adventurous industrialists sit down, look at the options, weigh the risks and rewards, and then always choose wormholespace before lowsec.
The reason is simple. Going to lowsec is suicide with near zero reward. Going to wormholespace is a manageable risk for higher rewards. You can still be killed in wh-space. Your situational awareness in wh-space is compromised without local. But, they key difference is, you can manage you risk there. You can't do so in lowsec.
The only fix you have to get more people into lowsec is to kill off wh-space, drastically nerf 0.0, and kill yields in high sec. Until that time, low sec will always be the option of last resort for the clever, and the graveyard for the dumb.
pretty much spot on
I would say nerf yield in high sec, nerf NPC loot drops annnnnnnd
move all ice to low/0.0 
and/or add a new material that can only be found in low sec but is required in all production
and I wouldn't say the idea is to only move industrialists to low sec. The idea is that there should be incentive for all arrays of players to live there, be it miners, haulers (smugglers), explorers, or straight pvpers.
Low sec populace is low across the entire spectrum. This needs changing.
_____________________________________________
-Sketch, Certified Pharmacist
Need a Boost?
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.03.04 23:35:00 -
[40]
Originally by: XXSketchxx
Originally by: Lord Dralos
actually you can buy covetors for around 17.5 mill add on lasers and rigs looking closer to 25 mill and still super easy to pop it still comes back to same thing i posted before risk vs isk.
try reading what i wrote also i was on about warship costs vs mining ship costs before you go into your little stupidity mode of trying to flame.
flamers are lame especially when they flame before they read imo.
okay we'll go back to your post
1. You assume Hulk is the only way to mine. This is wrong
2. You assume everyone uses T1 crap to fight. This is wrong
3. You are comparing PvP combat ships with industrial ships (PVE). Compare a ratting ship to a mining ship. Guess what? The end is going to be the same.
You assume that people should mine in low sec "because it is the ballsy thing to do" even if it pay less, you have to use mediocre ships to manage the risk and you will need to spend plenty of time hiding to avoid being killed.
Seem pretty stupid, don't you concur?
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XXSketchxx
Gallente
Remote Soviet Industries
Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2010.03.04 23:48:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Translation:
You should play the way I want you to play, not how you prefer
Ok, my work rate is 50 Ç/hour plus expenses.
If you want me to play for your amusement you pay me.
Not at all. Play however you want. This is a thread about bringing incentives to living and playing in low sec. Not forcing people to go there. Why should a particular area of EvE be a wasteland? I am an industrialist myself. This isn't about "getting moar targets." Its about making low sec a unique and viable part of the game, not just a dump you pass through.
_____________________________________________
-Sketch, Certified Pharmacist
Need a Boost?
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Kharamete
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Posted - 2010.03.05 00:58:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Kharamete on 05/03/2010 00:58:45
Originally by: XXSketchxx
I would say nerf yield in high sec, nerf NPC loot drops annnnnnnd
move all ice to low/0.0
and/or add a new material that can only be found in low sec but is required in all production
Low sec is fundamentally broken. It won't be fixed by forcing defenseless miners to go there. You would have to nerf all other areas of Eve to get a higher influx of people; highsec, wh-space and 0.0. Industrialists will always chose the other areas before they even start thinking of going into lowsec.
What will fix it is to nerf pvp there, but no one's going to contemplate that. What will fix it is to extend concord into low sec, but that will pretty much be the end of the lawless zone in Eve. No one wants that.
Demanding a nerf to high-sec, 0.0 and wh-space is just asking for all eve players to conform to the present low sec populations playstyle, and it won't happen.
Lowsec broke a long time ago, and I see no fix for it really. *shrug* And I say that as a resident there on my combat toon.
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Sig Sour
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Posted - 2010.03.05 03:16:00 -
[43]
Originally by: InUrJita CheckinUrPrice
-- Make the non-Capital t2 mining vessels t1 for insurance purposes (reduce risk) ALTERNATIVELY rework them to be more "combat" focused (If pvp is less one-sided, miners will be less assiduous in avoiding it -- also, battlehulk victor!)
You have no idea how absolutely boned I would have been on 95% of my miner ganks if the miners told their drones to attack me instead of calling them back in and leaving their friend (the one i got a point on) to die. Almost every time I find some miners to gank, we are heavily outnumbered and I say on our vent "You know if they decide to fight us we are going to have some pretty damn embarrassing loss mails, right?"
Luckily for me, I know that my strength is in your fear of me, RAWRRRRGRAHHH!!! *blink* *blink* *blink*
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Sig Sour
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Posted - 2010.03.05 05:08:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Let's see if you get it:
- veldspar (and only veldspar) re-spawn rate was buffed
- that push tritanium price down
Maybe in your head. Check the market graphs before you post more misinformation.
Originally by: Venkul Mul
- pushing the other minerals up help low sec
- that is the mineral basket at work.
More like a delusional mind at work. Pushing mineral (costs) up would help low sec how? You are illogical, have your mind made up and consider ambiguous conclusions made in your head to be fact.
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Got it?
LOL!
Originally by: Venkul Mul
If you think that pushing tritanium availability up is a damage to low sec, you are really wrong and need some more notion in how EVE economy work.
Now you are putting words in my mouth. I never said it damaged low sec. I said giving people more minerals to mine in high sec is not going to push them to low sec.
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Next time read the whole post and think about what I write before hitting reply.
Take your own advice.
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.03.05 05:47:00 -
[45]
You don't want to introduce a system where stuff is created out of nothing by increasing mineral yields.
If mining is to become better in low-sec all that is required is to improve the spawn types by a whopping amount.
When/if pirates get their patch and allegiances with NPC pirate organizations become possible (through standings), belt rats might even act as protectors of a miner
There are lots of ideas floating around as to how to improve low-sec so crawl around the various threads to see which way the winds blow.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.03.05 10:53:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Sig Sour
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Let's see if you get it:
- veldspar (and only veldspar) re-spawn rate was buffed
- that push tritanium price down
Maybe in your head. Check the market graphs before you post more misinformation.
Evidently you know nothing of the EVE market and how self destructing ships for insurance work.
If CCP hadn't increased Veldspar spawn we would have tritanium at a way higher price.
Originally by: Sig Sour
Originally by: Venkul Mul
- pushing the other minerals up help low sec
- that is the mineral basket at work.
More like a delusional mind at work. Pushing mineral (costs) up would help low sec how? You are illogical, have your mind made up and consider ambiguous conclusions made in your head to be fact.
 If the price of the other minerals is pushed up the low sec ores are worth a bit more. It is not enough but better than nothing.
Originally by: Sig Sour
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Got it?
LOL!
Evidetly, not.
Originally by: Sig Sour
Originally by: Venkul Mul
If you think that pushing tritanium availability up is a damage to low sec, you are really wrong and need some more notion in how EVE economy work.
Now you are putting words in my mouth. I never said it damaged low sec. I said giving people more minerals to mine in high sec is not going to push them to low sec.
So you want the removal of minerals in high sec?
And you want to push people where they don't want to go?
You see, removing/reducing minerals in high sec would not push people in low sec, it would push them in 0.0/WH space, but before that it would simply stop people that is using the insurance as a way to make isk (build ship, insure, self destruct, collect insurance, repeat).
So it would reduce mineral demand.
0.0 would still be a large mineral product centre, simply mining veldspar there and use the different compression systems to move it to high sec would become convenient.
And low sec will still be non interesting for mining for most people.
The net result that you would get is to make harder for new players to mine, but any organized player would move to 0.0 and skip low sec.
Originally by: Sig Sour
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Next time read the whole post and think about what I write before hitting reply.
Take your own advice.
Evidently you don't have thought about what I wrote or you don't know how EVE economy work
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Lord Dralos
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Posted - 2010.03.05 18:57:00 -
[47]
to be honest id love to see a roving war fleet of cap ships from a few of the 0.0 empires to jump through low sec and kill everything in its path and block off strategic choke points in low sec for several weeks just to be annoying to the pvpers but alas i know thats not going to happen so........... pvpers should stop whining about the way miners are hiding in hi sec wanting ores removing or concord protection to be removed etc.
its not gonna happen and its not gonna get us to come out to play in low sec i prefer wh space myself if i want the rarer ores you cant get in hi sec as for removing ice do you know that most peeps rely upon ice in high sec for pos's all over eve it would have a detrimental effect on everyone if they where only allowed to be mined in 0.0.
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Asheru
Caldari
HeartVenom Inc.
Legiunea ROmana
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Posted - 2010.03.05 19:26:00 -
[48]
Right now, low sec is kind of like a nude beach. Pirates are the lecherous old men wondering why sexy young girls never come to their beach, and miners are the sexy young girls that can sunbathe nude in their backyard, getting the same tan but without the creepiness and sexual assault. Their backyard being high sec, of course.
See, there is no reason to sunbathe nude in low sec if you can get the same tan in high sec.
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XXSketchxx
Gallente
Remote Soviet Industries
Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2010.03.05 19:31:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Asheru
Right now, low sec is kind of like a nude beach. Pirates are the lecherous old men wondering why sexy young girls never come to their beach, and miners are the sexy young girls that can sunbathe nude in their backyard, getting the same tan but without the creepiness and sexual assault. Their backyard being high sec, of course.
See, there is no reason to sunbathe nude in low sec if you can get the same tan in high sec.
I normally disapprove of making comparisons to real life.
However, this analogy is pure win.
+1 rep.
_____________________________________________
-Sketch, Certified Pharmacist
Need a Boost?
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Sig Sour
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Posted - 2010.03.05 21:30:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Inappropriately long quoting.
I know how the economy works but because the economy is not the topic here I am not going to argue it here with you. If you want to continue a conversation about the economy, go start a new thread with that topic.
Giving people more things to do in high sec is not going to help move them to other areas of the game. That is the bottom line of what I said. Now go write another book on a response to this and don't forget to ad-lib what I said, that is the entertaining part for me.
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Dantes Revenge
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.03.05 21:49:00 -
[51]
I have mined in lowsec in a Retriever before Exhumers were around, I also now mine in ops in lowsec in a Hulk. I can tell you that, even with a defensive patrol, gankers will always go for the Hulks because they are easy to pop and present a big loss to the owners. You can't jump your whole gang out every time someone enters the system, it just isn't practical. You do it when known pirate players or those with a low sec rating enter and when reds come in. This means you may still get attacked by opportunists who don't even have a low sec rating.
We have quite a good organisation with a number of covops keeping tabs on gates and alerting us when reds and known/obvious gankers enter. Due to this, we have lost very few ships in mining ops. There is a downside to this, it costs big time to have all these players defending a small group of miners and we do it rarely because of this. We can get the majority of our low end minerals in highsec and ship them in, what little Zydrine we get from lowsec mining isn't really worth the cost of such a big op. It's really only done for lolz and a bit of ease instead of hauling large quantities of minerals two jumps through lowsec. Even mining Hemorphite doesn't anywhere near cover the cost of the op and we're putting out 8 or more hulks at a time.
Going back to the "carebear" issue, if it costs a corp that much to have a mining op going, a highsec miner isn't going to fund it because it would lead to a loss compared to highsec mining. He still has to pay the defenders as well as making a profit so it just can't be done. For the defenders, it's a long and very boring job just sitting and watching local and scanner, maybe taking out the odd NPC rat when they spawn so very few people want to do it anyway.
This comes back to ninja mining. It's very little advantage over highsec mining since you can't jetcan mine at all. Going back and forth takes time, even with aligning and WTZ now (I had to do it with instas back when I ninja mined in lowsec), it really needs a super size cargo hold to make it even close to being profitable. You can do it in a retriever or covetor if you don't mind warping to the station and coming back in a cruiser every time rats spawn because neither of the barges can tank the rats long enough to take them out with drones. That goes back to the Exhumer but now we're talking about 75% insurance payouts at best if you do lose it. If you're going to use an exhumer, it may as well be a hulk since it can mine 3 times as much and has a bigger cargo capacity.
CCP had a nice idea with adding 2warp stab protection to the Skiff but with only 1 mining turret, it's just outright unprofitable to mine with it. It still means a lot of time wasted warping back and forth to the station. If they had added a 25K cargo hold to it, that would have made it roughly equal to a retriever with T1 strip mining lasers in highsec mining veld into a can, even a covetor with T1 lasers in highsec would still be more profitable. 2 turrets and a 25K cargo hold would make it more viable in lowsec but still less profitable than a hulk in highsec.
You can check my math if you like, I did do the research based on my own skills. I've played for 6 years and I fly a T2 fitted Hulk with T2 mining crystals and have a perfect refine rate in NPC stations for every ore up to and including Hemorphite. Also most of my navigation skills are level 5 since I can fly, every Amarr T2 ship except Black ops and I also fly Carriers and Dreads. Since I am in a lowsec corps, I often PVP as well, this carebear has a set of teeth too 
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Sig Sour
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Posted - 2010.03.05 22:21:00 -
[52]
Thanks for posting Dante, it is good to get some experienced opinions rather than just people guessing and estimating. All too often people toss anyone capable of industry in with the care bear crowd. How often did/co you guys look for grav sites?
In my experience it was a very good way to make isk without having to get a major organization going. Plus if you plop a pos down and leave all your barges out where they can be scanned, people get really used to seeing them on d-scan and don't bother looking for them.
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Sobon
Caldari
Phantom Squad
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Posted - 2010.03.05 22:48:00 -
[53]
A better scaling ore system would benefit both lowsec and 0.0 mining, making high/low/null-variants of each ore, with exponential scaling on the yeilds would be a fairly quick way to marginalize highsec mining entirely. If <trit-heavy> ore mined from null or low sec produced several times (If not orders of magnitude) the rate of the comparable highsec ore, people would be far more willing to take the risk, and put the efforts into running miners in risky areas. |
Dantes Revenge
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.03.05 22:56:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Sig Sour
Thanks for posting Dante, it is good to get some experienced opinions rather than just people guessing and estimating. All too often people toss anyone capable of industry in with the care bear crowd. How often did/co you guys look for grav sites?
It isn't really a big thing for us. We have other red corps who are larger than us scanning for them frequently, if we did find one, chances are we wouldn't be alone for long. Also, we get involved in wardecs quite a lot so there are few times when it's safe to go on expeditions and leave the POS undefended for any time.
Quote:
In my experience it was a very good way to make isk without having to get a major organization going. Plus if you plop a pos down and leave all your barges out where they can be scanned, people get really used to seeing them on d-scan and don't bother looking for them.
The downside of this is that when your POS gets attacked and it can happen quite frequently in lowsec depending on where you are, you chance losing your entire mining fleet as well. Our corp isn't large enough to take that sort of loss too often so we keep ours docked up in the local station, along with most of our capital defense and industrial fleet. Most of our mining ops work out of the local station instead of the POS, it's only 1 warp away from the POS with a hauler to put minerals in the oven to build what we need. Our idea is that they may take down our POS eventually but they won't get much out of it except a little bit of inconvenience to us for a short time until we get a replacement up and running.
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Sig Sour
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Posted - 2010.03.05 23:27:00 -
[55]
You could just dock them up if gets reinforced. Should have enough stront in there to take care of that kind of thing.
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Ephemeron
Retribution Corp.
Initiative Associates
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Posted - 2010.03.05 23:41:00 -
[56]
I remember back in 2004-2005, there was a real incentive to go mine in low sec. Back then, as a noob, I joined corps that did that. It was fun, as much fun as mining can be.
I was lucky to have played EVE back then, cause it's not just the same anymore. Despite all the expansions and bug fixing, the core theme of this game has been altered for the worse
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Amberlyn Stardreamer
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Posted - 2010.03.06 01:51:00 -
[57]
http://cerlestes.de/eve/oretable/#site:ore
Scordite and plagioclase are currently more valuable than ANY low-sec ore and some null-sec ores.
The only way you'll be seeing miners in low-sec would be if ore values changed so dramatically that a miner could be certain that, after factoring in ship losses, clone costs, implant losses, and the cost of paying PVPer's to act as guards, he/she would make a significantly greater profit than he/she would by spending the same time mining in high-sec.
Mining is an economic activity. Lawless chaos ALWAYS destroys economic activities. Eve's low-sec is -- intentionally and by design -- a region of lawless chaos. People should stop being surprised by this.
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Amberlyn Stardreamer
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Posted - 2010.03.06 01:58:00 -
[58]
Originally by: XXSketchxx
...
covetors cost like...10 mil? and are fully insurable
you dont have to use a hulk
...
You actually think that mining smaller quantities of lower-value ore at greater risk of losing ships, clones, implants, etc. is a solution to making more isk?
ROFLOL!
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Amberlyn Stardreamer
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Posted - 2010.03.06 02:13:00 -
[59]
Originally by: XXSketchxx
... Why should a particular area of EvE be a wasteland? I am an industrialist myself. ...
Because player pirates have decided to make it a wasteland by killing everything that passes through.
No economy can function in the absence of law and order.
High sec has government in control to provide a reasonable degree of security so that inherently helpless characters can do productive work -- on their own schedule with a considerable degree of individual freedom.
Null-sec has a semi-feudal system in control where alliances provide a degree of security so that inherently helpless characters can do productive work -- though they are dependent on others' schedules and their freedom is restricted by the need to assemble a group operation with adequate security.
Low-sec has neither. For an inherently helpless character its nothing but a place of death and loss -- because player pirates have chosen to make it that way.
Which is more likely to happen?
A. A complete revamp of Eve's economy that boosts low-sec at the expense of all other sectors of space? OR,
B. Player pirates universally swear to never, ever, ever again shoot a mining ship or hauler and to instantly gang up on to destroy any pirate who breaks that compact?
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Ephemeron
Retribution Corp.
Initiative Associates
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Posted - 2010.03.06 02:40:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Amberlyn Stardreamer
Mining is an economic activity. Lawless chaos ALWAYS destroys economic activities. Eve's low-sec is -- intentionally and by design -- a region of lawless chaos. People should stop being surprised by this.
That argument is not valid in light of evidence that 0.0 space economic activities are quite successful. 0.0 profitability in fact competes quite well with high sec empire.
0.0 mining is unprofitable simply because all the ores in low sec are worth less (or very little over) Veldspar which is available in high sec.
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Amberlyn Stardreamer
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Posted - 2010.03.06 03:20:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Ephemeron
Originally by: Amberlyn Stardreamer
Mining is an economic activity. Lawless chaos ALWAYS destroys economic activities. Eve's low-sec is -- intentionally and by design -- a region of lawless chaos. People should stop being surprised by this.
That argument is not valid in light of evidence that 0.0 space economic activities are quite successful. 0.0 profitability in fact competes quite well with high sec empire.
0.0 mining is unprofitable simply because all the ores in low sec are worth less (or very little over) Veldspar which is available in high sec.
Null-sec is not lawless. It is a semi-feudal system where alliances act the part of the "lords" -- strong men who keep order by their personal might.
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Liang Nuren
The Aduro Protocol
Talon Alliance
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Posted - 2010.03.06 03:22:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Amberlyn Stardreamer
Null-sec is not lawless. It is a semi-feudal system where alliances act the part of the "lords" -- strong men who keep order by their personal might.
This is not so different from how lowsec works. But I can see you've never lived there. 
-Liang
--
Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire |
XXSketchxx
Gallente
Remote Soviet Industries
Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2010.03.06 04:41:00 -
[63]
Amber are you being intentionally daft?
Stop picking out select quotes without full context.
My point about the covetor is that its a cheap and reasonable option to the hulk, but miners seem to think that the hulk is the only option. Now, with current ore situation, this is definitely true for low sec and high sec. Null sec? Absolutely not. It is perfectly viable to use a covetor in wh or regular 0.0.
But this is about low sec. You're right. Low sec sucks for carebear activities because of the pew pew. But if you read some of my posts you'll see that I am all for boosting quality of mining in low sec by some means (greater yield, unique ore). Additionally, I would love to see CCP revamp low sec in such a way that players can be rewarded for anti-pirate activities (viceroys anyone?).
Low sec being a barren wasteland is only partially pirates faults. But the real truth of the matter is that there is no damn reason to be there.
_____________________________________________
-Sketch, Certified Pharmacist
Need a Boost?
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Abulurd Boniface
Gallente
Gangrel Mining and Security
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Posted - 2010.03.11 06:39:00 -
[64]
Edited by: Abulurd Boniface on 11/03/2010 06:47:43
Edited by: Abulurd Boniface on 11/03/2010 06:43:05
Quote:
But this is about low sec. You're right. Low sec sucks for carebear activities because of the pew pew. But if you read some of my posts you'll see that I am all for boosting quality of mining in low sec by some means (greater yield, unique ore)
This is the kind of myopic nonsense that I can only stand for just so long. The assumption that the logistics of the vastly greater risk of mining somewhat better ore in a crippled ship makes enough economic sense for someone who has to fly a defenseless ship to do it. And the reason for it is that the balance is all skewed. The privateer takes -no risk- whatsoever. Their risk/reward is a win every time. They just cannot be touched in a negative way by the mining op. At the same time, hells yeah, let's mine in a Covetor. Why not throw out the superior performance of the Hulk when we can mine so much less or in a greatly reduced cargo hold, that forces the miner to jump in and out like a jojo every two cycles. Fantastic plan! Let's do more of it.
I mine in nulsec. 1 red enters the system, the mining op stops and everybody sticks their thumb up their butt at the POS for the duration. That's in a protected fleet. Because if that one guy entering the system drops a cyno that calls in the cavalry, everybody they find at the belt is toast.
Ninja mining in low-sec -might- work if small quantities of some ore were required. It defeats the whole idea of mining. A miner derives their revenue from mining a lot of ore over a long period of time. It is NOT a heroic mission, it's just mining ore. In large quantities. That is the profitable enterprise. Having to stop mining for the least possible risk of being spanked for the dubious benefit of mining a somewhat better resource is acceptable only to someone who knows their boat has all the guns. That is why low-sec is empty. I don't know why there even is any ore in low-sec belts. What's the point of having it? I bet there are systems in low-sec where nobody has mined in years. I'd like to see the stats on that. There must be asteroid belts around that haven't had to be refreshed in ages [or, only when the models were sexed up].
The aggravating part in all this is that the privateer seems to want to demand their victims to be happy with the risk they impose. "Yes, we're going to blow up your boat the second we manage to lock on to your defenseless ship. Of course we will. We're pirates, that's what we do. So? You have to mine in a crippled ship, drastically reducing your output and therefore your isk/hour. We don't mind at all, it doesn't matter to us how little you make. Come on down anyway. What are you? A yssup? Can't take being shot to bits like a real man? ===> way to HelloKitty."
The privateer is like the fishermen in the real world: they destroy the environment they depend on for their sustenance and then complain their experience is ruined. The term for that is cognitive dissonance.
My solution to low-sec is: remove all the asteroid belts and half the moons/planets. It will have a very positive impact on lag for all the graphics that don't need to be drawn. Nobody cares about the moons/planets and the asteroid belts are untouched anyway. We'll account for ratting in low-sec by dropping some random amount of ISK in the privateer's wallet so that they stop whining about also losing that bit of pocket change. Or maybe adding an extra drone plex or something. Whatever.
For good to survive it suffices for evil to acquire a deadly, incapacitating disease. |
Allaria Kriss
Minmatar
Elipse Inc.
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Posted - 2010.03.11 12:04:00 -
[65]
Here we go again.
As a miner and an industrialist that has spent a great deal of time in both high and low sec, I can give you my assessment of the whole 'miners in low-sec' thing, as I have many times before. The miners will agree with me, the pirates will not. This is always how it is - The miners are looking out for their bottom lines and the pirates want more easy kills, so that determines how they fall on this issue.
Why do you see no miners in low-sec? Simple. Low-sec is the least safe, most hazardous place in the game for a miner. They are in a ship that is either very expensive (The Hulk) or so fragile it can't tank the belt rats half the time (The Covetor). They are always in predictable, easily-found locations (Gravimetric sites notwithstanding) and they have to stay in that location for a significant length of time to accomplish anything. There is even less protection than in null-sec, which at least may be cyno-jammed and allows a large mining op's escorts to freely engage suspicious types *before* the global flag.
Almost all miners operate on the principle of volume. The more they mine, the more money they make. That is why low-sec mining is so inefficient - They have cheaper implants, fly cheaper ships, sell for lower prices (Since moving the minerals out of low-sec is a pain with the not-uncommon gatecamps), and have more people to split the profits between (Since they now need escorts). Most miners are based in high-sec, which means they now need to go further to get to the site of the mining op, which takes more time. They are also far less likely to have an Orca, which is a huge, slow, and very expensive ship. This not only removes the Orca's bonuses, but makes the logistics chain less efficient as now the miners need to rely on jetcans. All of these things mean that the mining operation takes a massive hit to their overall productivity, which greatly reduces their income even if they don't get attacked. Throw in the occasional pirate raid stopping an operation for hours and you have a grossly inefficient operation compared to mining anywhere else in the game. These problems occur in 0.0 as well, but only if you aren't supposed to be there. Space-holding alliances secure their miners well enough that the good stuff can be used, and jump freighters handle logistics problems if the alliance doesn't just use the minerals themselves.
Forcing miners into low-sec can only be accomplished by practically eliminating the options of mining in high-sec, W-space, and 0.0. This will accomplish nothing except to drive most miners into a completely different way of making ISK that has similar profits and similar risks to what they're already doing (AKA missions). I can see two outcomes of this: Either prices increase across the board (Which will prompt complaints from all PvPers as their ships cost more) or corps and alliances lock down low-sec just like they do 0.0 (Which will prompt complaints from pirates and Faction Warfare members as low-sec is being taken over by alliances).
So. Is it worth it? No.
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Dantes Revenge
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.03.11 17:21:00 -
[66]
Originally by: XXSketchxx
Amber are you being intentionally daft?
Stop picking out select quotes without full context.
My point about the covetor is that its a cheap and reasonable option to the hulk, but miners seem to think that the hulk is the only option. Now, with current ore situation, this is definitely true for low sec and high sec. Null sec? Absolutely not. It is perfectly viable to use a covetor in wh or regular 0.0.
But this is about low sec. You're right. Low sec sucks for carebear activities because of the pew pew. But if you read some of my posts you'll see that I am all for boosting quality of mining in low sec by some means (greater yield, unique ore). Additionally, I would love to see CCP revamp low sec in such a way that players can be rewarded for anti-pirate activities (viceroys anyone?).
Low sec being a barren wasteland is only partially pirates faults. But the real truth of the matter is that there is no damn reason to be there.
Amber was quite correct. Mining in a Covetor may be great for 0.0 or WH mining because of the value of ore there. In lowsec, it's pointless because the lower yield in lowsec results in less income compared to mining in a hulk in highsec. In theory, it's a good idea if the value of the ore was increased to make it viable. Eve a Hulk in lowsec can only make at most 5-10% more income than in highsec since you only have a very small amount of Zydrine making the difference. Add in payment for other players to defend you and you lose maybe half your income. That works out at only 55% or so of highsecs income and I can't see anyone risking their ship for half of the profit margin they could get without that risk.
Even if you were to take the extreme risk of ninja mining in a hulk, the inability to mine into a can means frequent trips back and forth to the station. That means maybe only 50% of the time spent in the belt. Once again, only 50% of the income.
So what would you choose? 100% with no risk or 50% with a big risk?
It all comes down to the same thing, lowsec needs to be a lot more profitable than it is at present to make it even close to being a lure for miners.
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Torothanax
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Posted - 2010.03.11 18:17:00 -
[67]
The only way to make low sec mining profitable is to give better options for players to make low sec safe. As it stands now, low sec pvp, to most people, means camping gates, maybe scanning belts, and then obliterating everything they can get a scram on. There is very little reason to be in low sec besides blowing people up. Since it's easier to just shoot everything, that's what most people do.
Low sec mining doesn't make enough to pay for protection. Concord doesn't patrol low sec as intended. Players don't patrol low sec because there's no money in it, and it limits targets when you only shoot "pirates". And then there's the problem of identifing "pirates", since sec status gives no indication of play style (other then carebears having +5.0). Smart pirates stay above -5.0 and you'd be hard pressed to find an anti pirate that's not negative somthing. So how do you tell the difference?
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Dantes Revenge
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.03.11 19:11:00 -
[68]
Edited by: Dantes Revenge on 11/03/2010 19:15:18
Originally by: Torothanax
The only way to make low sec mining profitable is to give better options for players to make low sec safe. As it stands now, low sec pvp, to most people, means camping gates, maybe scanning belts, and then obliterating everything they can get a scram on. There is very little reason to be in low sec besides blowing people up. Since it's easier to just shoot everything, that's what most people do.
Quite true.
Sov (or something similar) would have been a better solution to lowsec rather than nullsec. before Sov was introduced, nullsec was already safer than lowsec and it was really lowsec that needed the game mechanics to allow players to make it safer. Like I've said before, lowsec has become the lawless region that nullsec was supposed to be and vice versa.
One way or the other, either the rewards have to change to mitigate the risk or something needs to be done to allow a reduction in the risk factor since the rewards are nowhere near enough to compensate.
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Amberlyn Stardreamer
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Posted - 2010.03.12 22:21:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Amberlyn Stardreamer
Null-sec is not lawless. It is a semi-feudal system where alliances act the part of the "lords" -- strong men who keep order by their personal might.
This is not so different from how lowsec works. But I can see you've never lived there.
-Liang
You're right. I've never lived there -- because its a chaotic and lawless wasteland rather than a place where someone provides the level of security required to ensure that an industrial character can make money rather than lose it.
My main belongs to an alliance that has spent a year unsuccessfully attempting to do just that with one, low-sec system. Low-sec mechanics are such that there is no keeping the player pirates out -- the game simply does not permit that in low-sec.
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Amberlyn Stardreamer
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Posted - 2010.03.12 22:36:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Dantes Revenge
... Eve a Hulk in lowsec can only make at most 5-10% more income than in highsec since you only have a very small amount of Zydrine making the difference. ...
This is incorrect.
With every highsec ore except omber worth more than the most valuable low-sec ore there is no way to, even in theory, make more money mining low-sec than mining highsec.
http://cerlestes.de/eve/oretable/#site:ore
The most valuable high-sec ore, Scordite, is currently 3,062,224M/jetcan. The most valuable low-sec ore, Hedbergite, is currently 1,901,881M/jetcan.
Mining low-sec is a losing proposition even if you were guaranteed to not lose ships, had access to your top equipment and bonuses, and were guaranteed to get your minerals safely to market.
This makes your point even stronger. Putting an implant-free clone into a covetor without bonuses and with a significant risk of losing ships, clones, and the minerals themselves before they made it to market is absolutely laughable.
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Lord Dralos
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Posted - 2010.03.15 15:55:00 -
[71]
well from what ive been reading in this posting i can safely say the miners/industrialists and yes even the carebear pve guys and girls have 0% interest in going into low sec so the pirates and pvpers have only got themselves to blame for the state low sec is in 
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