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Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2010.03.02 09:38:00 - [91] Originally by: Arch Widowmaker Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Here is the out-of-box (and slightly insane) suggestion: Make ECM do what it does in the real world; disrupt electronics/communications. Upon a successful Jam the targets overview, chat channels, target locks (anything with text/icons basically), blurs to the point of being unrecognisable, all brackets disappear and locked targets are shuffled. Effect: Still in full control but has no idea what the hell is going on or who he just blasted in the face. Minimizes/removes ECM crippling the solo/small-gang scenario. That I would like to see, but doubt its even remotely possible On Ventrilo.. ================================ Jake gets jammed.. Bob: Jake, you're shooting on me, switch targets. Jake: How about now? Bob: You're shooting secondary. Jake: And now? Bob: Yep, primary is going down, excellent! Tools outside the game would make it easy to "see" what the client isn't telling you. Yeah something like this, it also would be completly useless in solo or small gang, completly useless against close range ships , they would just keep shooting and wouldnt care about being jammed or not.
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.03.02 09:49:00 - [92] Originally by: Naomi Knight The only change I could think of is that ecm makes you miss with your guns,ewar,other projected modules,maybe even with your self affecting modules too. Now we are cooking. Biggest hurdle we face is to discard the "old ways" of thinking. With a 100% jam chance and the effects being modifiable by ECCM it comes a lot closer to the way everything else works in Eve. Curious as to how you would solve the solo/small-gang being completely demolished by ECM. Originally by: Arch Widowmaker Tools outside the game would make it easy to "see" what the client isn't telling you. I considered that, but if you cannot distinguish between blue/red, ship sizes etc? Once you have ten or more people around any sort of 'timely' targeting becomes practically impossible .. if we made a jam temporarily cancel overview settings it would be as crippling as now but with none of the cinematic thumb-twiddly - you can act, but largely ineffective. Originally by: Naomi Knight Yeah something like this, it also would be completly useless in solo or small gang, completly useless against close range ships , they would just keep shooting and wouldnt care about being jammed or not. How is the current state where a single ECM boat essentially guarantees victory when gang/ship sizes go down any better?
Katarlia Simov Minmatar Cowboys From Hell	Posted - 2010.03.02 11:29:00 - [93] Hold up... You think its better to make it basically impossible to do anything so you have to sit and twiddle your thumbs than simply having to sit and twiddle your thumbs ? Especially the whole not knowing who you're firing on stuff ... How far are you going to go with that ? Scrambled over-view... hmmmm ... maybe ... but can you still click on people in space ? Cuz if you can still see their names or ship types, you achieve nothing. If you make it so that you cant safely shoot anything, then you make it the same as it is now. Its not a great idea tbh.
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.03.02 11:43:00 - [94] Originally by: Katarlia Simov Hold up... You think its better to make it basically impossible to do anything so you have to sit and twiddle your thumbs than simply having to sit and twiddle your thumbs ? Especially the whole not knowing who you're firing on stuff ... How far are you going to go with that ? Scrambled over-view... hmmmm ... maybe ... but can you still click on people in space ? Cuz if you can still see their names or ship types, you achieve nothing. If you make it so that you cant safely shoot anything, then you make it the same as it is now. Its not a great idea tbh. It's all about psychology, all good games/game-play taps into that to achieve everything from shock to amazement - disregard it at your own peril. Who cares whether the idea is good or not, its an example shedding the old dogma .. what's the point of perpetually tweaking a fundamentally broken system, it will never be mended unless it undergoes major surgery.
Larinioides cornutus	Posted - 2010.03.02 11:44:00 - [95] Shameless plug On a side note: All other forms of ewars also let you to move your ship, use fof and drone to various degrees.
Fumitsugu The Tuskers	Posted - 2010.03.02 11:53:00 - [96] Edited by: Fumitsugu on 02/03/2010 11:55:28 Edited by: Fumitsugu on 02/03/2010 11:54:30 How about making ECM much much stronger (on bonused ships), but giving it zero or very short duration? You disrupt the targeting ability of the target ship with more precision, but they can instantly relock, penalising larger ships, which have a stronger sig strength anyway, because of their poor scan res? Frigates would get jammed even more easily, but they would be able to relock in a couple of seconds, but still easily enough time to make a difference when killing drones or tackling. It would de-nerf the scan-res-scripted RSD too methinks? Now, as for target painters... ed. seems I went afk for 10 before posting this. ed.2. I actually like ECM though, don't touch it!
kessah M. Corp Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2010.03.02 11:57:00 - [97] I actually agree, now to some people they see only from one solitary perspective on this and that is from fleet warfare. Large numbers, so ECM to them seem justifiably fine. However there are a significant number of players that enjoy small sized engagements, in this area ECM is ultimately too strong. Once you are jammed by something you are officially screwed for 20 solid seconds, you are unable to do anything, you cannot assign drones, you cannot blind fire etc. I would like to see it changed again, people enjoy saying fit ECCM, but a solo pilot and small gang combat pilot, it wont make a difference as the jammer has normally 6-8 jamming modules, and it will jam you. I just wish there was a nice balance.
Dr Fighter	Posted - 2010.03.02 12:02:00 - [98] Remeber that in small engaugements ecm gets a sneak bonus due to multiple tries, unlike dmaps with just stack. half the chance to jam a target that already has a failed jammer on it, and half the half on the next failed jammer etc. this would make fitting eccm more worth while, makes surviving the first jam the most important, and since hes already taken a full hit on the first roll of the dice the second roll is automaticly reduced.
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2010.03.02 12:06:00 - [99] 1: Change ECCM modules to give a numerical boost rather than a percentile one. If the boost were in the region of +20 to sensor strength, this would mean that a single mod was as effective as before when on a battleship, but significantly better than before when on a frigate. 2: This would also allow a return to ships being able to boost their non-racial sensors - ie a Minmatar ship could fit a radar ECCM and so have both radar and ladar sensors. In such a case the jamming ship would then have to overcome both sensors to jam the ship. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
kessah M. Corp Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2010.03.02 12:07:00 - [100] Originally by: Dr Fighter Remeber that in small engaugements ecm gets a sneak bonus due to multiple tries, unlike dmaps with just stack. half the chance to jam a target that already has a failed jammer on it, and half the half on the next failed jammer etc. this would make fitting eccm more worth while, makes surviving the first jam the most important, and since hes already taken a full hit on the first roll of the dice the second roll is automaticly reduced. Nice idea.
kyrv	Posted - 2010.03.02 12:23:00 - [101] The cloaking technology mastered to disallow supreme surprised attacks with the re sensor calibration time, ecm modules require this and extra power so they can single out targets of nuisanse like goon superiors
TraininVain	Posted - 2010.03.02 12:24:00 - [102] Originally by: kessah I actually agree, now to some people they see only from one solitary perspective on this and that is from fleet warfare. Large numbers, so ECM to them seem justifiably fine. However there are a significant number of players that enjoy small sized engagements, in this area ECM is ultimately too strong. Once you are jammed by something you are officially screwed for 20 solid seconds, you are unable to do anything, you cannot assign drones, you cannot blind fire etc. I would like to see it changed again, people enjoy saying fit ECCM, but a solo pilot and small gang combat pilot, it wont make a difference as the jammer has normally 6-8 jamming modules, and it will jam you. I just wish there was a nice balance. Yeah. Any e-war gets way less effective in a big fleet because it's often badly coordinated. In a small gang however that is not so much of an issue. Mmm. I think the range nerf was good because we now kill falcons and rooks rather than them just being "LOL" and warping off because they're 100km + out. ECM as it now stands it's hard to say. I don't really like it because it removes any kind of "fight" from the fight. Things that strike me about it: It's really binary. Once you're jammed you cannot use any module that needs a lock. The other day I put an arbie TD on a cynabal with an optimal script and he burned in close so I had to switch scripts and start orbiting him. He still had the use of his neut and drones too. It works on everything. A missile boat can chase my Curse off. If I were in a Rook, not so much. There's no obvious way to counter it on a single-ship or small gang basis. ECCM works up to a point but vs. a full rack it's really only increasing the number of jammers out of a full rack of double bonused ECM that will be required to jam you so you're basically just helping out the rest of the gang. It's not stack nerfed. Past a certain point an extra web or TD or RSD isn't doing that much. Caldari recons only come with one kind of E-war so generally you can focus almost entirely on fitting for that. I suppose people do now fit the rook for a bit of missile DPS but mostly they're very focused. I don't know which one of those things is The Thing with ECM but I do know I'm not a big fan.
Dr Fighter	Posted - 2010.03.02 12:43:00 - [103] Originally by: TraininVain Originally by: kessah I actually agree, now to some people they see only from one solitary perspective on this and that is from fleet warfare. Large numbers, so ECM to them seem justifiably fine. However there are a significant number of players that enjoy small sized engagements, in this area ECM is ultimately too strong. Once you are jammed by something you are officially screwed for 20 solid seconds, you are unable to do anything, you cannot assign drones, you cannot blind fire etc. I would like to see it changed again, people enjoy saying fit ECCM, but a solo pilot and small gang combat pilot, it wont make a difference as the jammer has normally 6-8 jamming modules, and it will jam you. I just wish there was a nice balance. Yeah. Any e-war gets way less effective in a big fleet because it's often badly coordinated. In a small gang however that is not so much of an issue. Mmm. I think the range nerf was good because we now kill falcons and rooks rather than them just being "LOL" and warping off because they're 100km + out. ECM as it now stands it's hard to say. I don't really like it because it removes any kind of "fight" from the fight. Things that strike me about it: It's really binary. Once you're jammed you cannot use any module that needs a lock. The other day I put an arbie TD on a cynabal with an optimal script and he burned in close so I had to switch scripts and start orbiting him. He still had the use of his neut and drones too. It works on everything. A missile boat can chase my Curse off. If I were in a Rook, not so much. There's no obvious way to counter it on a single-ship or small gang basis. ECCM works up to a point but vs. a full rack it's really only increasing the number of jammers out of a full rack of double bonused ECM that will be required to jam you so you're basically just helping out the rest of the gang. It's not stack nerfed. Past a certain point an extra web or TD or RSD isn't doing that much. Caldari recons only come with one kind of E-war so generally you can focus almost entirely on fitting for that. I suppose people do now fit the rook for a bit of missile DPS but mostly they're very focused. I don't know which one of those things is The Thing with ECM but I do know I'm not a big fan. Id say EW is slightly more powerful in large fleets, the EW pilots can use their EW on the best available or most tactical targets getting the best effitiancy out of every cycle. Safty Numbers playing the best role in a fleet for protection against ew, unlike a small gang domiated by EW both gangs are still activly killing each other as the lord intended.
Larinioides cornutus	Posted - 2010.03.02 12:51:00 - [104] Edited by: Larinioides cornutus on 02/03/2010 12:52:48 Originally by: kessah I actually agree, now to some people they see only from one solitary perspective on this and that is from fleet warfare. Large numbers, so ECM to them seem justifiably fine. Not true. The thing is that ecm is not used as much in fleet fight comparing to small gangs. In gangs of 2-3 ppl if there's one ecm ship, the ratio is 33-50% being ecm ships. In RRBS fleets of say, 50 ppl, you dont often see scorps matching that kind of ratio (15-25). If somehow the scorp ratio in a fleet increase significantly, you'd probably find them changing their opinion quickly. Heck, ppl already b*tch when the POS jam them more then two times in a row.
JZIM Caldari Einherjar Rising Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2010.03.02 12:53:00 - [105] 1) Remove Multispecs 2) Reduce off-racial jammer strength to 0 3) Increase racial jammer strength by 20% Ecm boats keep their utility in larger engagements but (somewhat) lose the ability to lolpermajam solo/small gang targets.
The Tzar T-Wrecks	Posted - 2010.03.02 12:53:00 - [106] Painters get more effective the larger the fleet is, just saying... Fundamentally though people will still whinge about ECM because it completely shuts down 'active combat' for the defender. Perhaps a change like a serious damage reduction i.e. it disrupts your targeting so much that you can still lock the other ship but the sensors have no idea where that target actually is. Missiles and turrets would hit for next to no damage, those weapons with better hitting potential (read tracking and explosion/velocity factor) would fair better than those with low tracking etc. I think the main issue people have is the 'I can't do anything' (which you can, I've seen plenty of falcons get nailed by domi's/ishtars) if people didn't lose their lock they would feel less incapacitated and it would not have as different an effect on larger ships (read the time it takes to re-acquire lock). If these changes were to take place though, also change the ECM system so that you don't need lowslots and rigs to make it a plausible system. Allow the falcon/rook to behave like the other recons and fit damage/tank/speed mods. Personally I think that the other EWAR systems should be race based if ECM is. Each ship has their own propulsion system, why is there a one module fits all for this? Please resize your signature to the maximum allowed of 400 x 120 pixels.StevieSG
TraininVain	Posted - 2010.03.02 12:56:00 - [107] Originally by: Dr Fighter Id say EW is slightly more powerful in large fleets, the EW pilots can use their EW on the best available or most tactical targets getting the best effitiancy out of every cycle. Safty Numbers playing the best role in a fleet for protection against ew, unlike a small gang domiated by EW both gangs are still activly killing each other as the lord intended. It rarely works that efficiently from what I've seen. I've been in a handful of fleets where the ECM boats have been added into a channel and come up with a coordinated jamming plan. Those work pretty well because jams are well spread out and the crowd control scales up. More often than not though it's just everyone piling on and jamming the primary. What then happens is that the ECM isn't jamming the ships that kill it or can't stay on field for that long without being chased off.
kessah M. Corp Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2010.03.02 13:12:00 - [108] Originally by: Larinioides cornutus Originally by: kessah I actually agree, now to some people they see only from one solitary perspective on this and that is from fleet warfare. Large numbers, so ECM to them seem justifiably fine. Not true. The thing is that ecm is not used as much in fleet fight comparing to small gangs. In gangs of 2-3 ppl if there's one ecm ship, the ratio os 33-50%. In RRBS fleets of say, 50 ppl, you dont often see scorps reaching that kind of ratio. If somehow the scorp ratio in a fleet increase significantly, you'd probably find them changing their opinion quickly. Heck, ppl ***** when the POS jam them more then two times in a row. Im not saying its balanced in large fleets, but ECM is weaker imho in large fleet as they are normally knocked out first by the rest of the unjammed fleet. So to the people that consider ECM fine, I assume that this is why they consider ECM as 'fine as it is' as it has some use, but can be countered. I also think that 20s duration is too long. Dampeners, painters, tracking disruptor's when in there optimal range work 100% of the time and specific to 1 target, while ECM is chance based and can effect a multitude of targets. Dampeners, painters, tracking disruptor's also effect aspects of a ship that don't totally make it impotent. In conjunction with other ships these forms of EW can work great and are balanced well, ECM I feel need to be brought to a similar level as Dampeners, painters, tracking disruptor's. While still making them effective to use, perhaps even adjust the ships that are specialised into them with higher DPS capabilities to offset the effect or something else. These are just issues I personally have with the this mechanic.
Flitz Farseeker Interstellar Stormfront	Posted - 2010.03.02 13:18:00 - [109] I see two approaches here which I think deserve further investigation. 1. Lockbreaker. You lose your lock on one or more targetted ships but can immediately start to relock. Frigs get jammed easily but can lock faster, while larger ships are harder to jam but take longer to lock. Nice balance here and plenty of options for skills like targeting to have an additional effect. 2. Scrambler You keep your locks, but have a harder time hitting because your sensors are being jammed. Again lots of options for skills to have an effect. In addition, ECM could have an effect on everything from targeting range to scan resolution to number of locked targets. Hell, I'd even go for a combination of the 2. If jam strength is more than sensor strength then you start to lose locks and have an increased chance to miss. If your sensor strength is greater than jam strength then you only suffer from an increased miss chance. Or even keep the chance system for losing locks and add the miss chance effect .
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.03.02 13:52:00 - [110] All eWar (sans TP's) lose power as numbers increase. Jamming, disrupting, neuting etc. one ship out of 100 does sod all .. that is provided the eWar ship even lives long enough to try. Has very little to do with application of eWar being unfocused and other such nonsense and everything to so with lag, numbers, involved ranges and being one-volleyed. If, for arguments sake, a large fleet can field 15-20% eWar then coordination will be required, goes without saying, same as the damage boats have primaries called. Extremely effective when done correctly (Caldari Militia dabbled with it last year I think) but requires a smooth server and experience on the part of coordinator. It is not a simple thing when you think about it. * Reducing cycles hurts more than it helps due to lock-times and risks making ECM true 'iWin' buttons. * Reducing number of available locks risks creating unbreakable RR-Blob scenarios. * Tweaking sensor strengths invariably ends up shafting one ship size or another. * No amount of polishing will improve the extreme annoyance that a chance based thumb-twiddling mechanic causes. Looking at all of that is what makes me want to find a completely different approach to ECM .. I have quite simply failed to find any tweak that solves the riddle.
Mr Australia	Posted - 2010.03.02 14:42:00 - [111] The sad part about this thread is it will probably get ecm nerfed before rockets get fixed.
Dr Fighter	Posted - 2010.03.02 14:48:00 - [112] Originally by: Mr Australia The sad part about this thread is it will probably get ecm nerfed before rockets get fixed. rockets dont suck the fun out of smaller gang pvp. They just suck for the people trained and willing to use rocket based ships, smaller demographic so, BACK OF THE LINE!
Gavin Darklighter THE FINAL STAND	Posted - 2010.03.02 14:49:00 - [113] Edited by: Gavin Darklighter on 02/03/2010 14:50:35 My solution: 1. Restore ECM to its previous extreme 250km range 2. Change ECM mechanics so that when jammed you can still lock and fire upon anyone who has shot at you in the last 30 seconds. This would make it so that ECM is worthless for ganking a solo pilot, and in a fleet fight with good teamwork you can make sure the DPS ships don't aggress the people you are jamming and so the jammed enemies will only be able to fire upon the ECM ships which will be at snipe range. In a 10v10 type of fight a falcon would still be able to keep 2-3 people jammed until the rest of the enemy fleet is destroyed. signature picture exceeds the size limit.~WeatherMan
Mr Management	Posted - 2010.03.02 15:21:00 - [114] ECM is a shadow of its former glory .... Move on a whine about something else
Meeko Atari	Posted - 2010.03.02 16:12:00 - [115] Edited by: Meeko Atari on 02/03/2010 16:13:27 You guys do realize that Sensor Damps are a perfect counter to ECM right? and are usually fitter to ships with the highest sensor strength ( Lach, arazu ) they work every time you activate them and have been over nerfed. Why not ask for a buff instead, I know the Gallente ships need it, and also a buff to Web strength wouldn't hurt the Minmatar either I know a few Curse pilots that would like a better Vamp as well I say we fix the other recons edit grammar
Dr Fighter	Posted - 2010.03.02 16:22:00 - [116] Originally by: Meeko Atari Edited by: Meeko Atari on 02/03/2010 16:13:27 You guys do realize that Sensor Damps are a perfect counter to ECM right? and are usually fitter to ships with the highest sensor strength ( Lach, arazu ) they work every time you activate them and have been over nerfed. Why not ask for a buff instead, I know the Gallente ships need it, and also a buff to Web strength wouldn't hurt the Minmatar either I know a few Curse pilots that would like a better Vamp as well I say we fix the other recons edit grammar i campained (whined) for a damp buff already, damps stacking on eachother and with sensor boosters, poor bonuses, weaksauce rigs etc. however even perfect damps with great strength would allow a target to defence himself in other ways etc ECMs primary and only effect is way too strong and its not fun for anyone, the number of people who use a falcon in a small gang and appologise in local after with "sorry i hate ecm too, but dont blame the player, blame the game"
Meeko Atari	Posted - 2010.03.02 16:26:00 - [117] Originally by: Dr Fighter Originally by: Meeko Atari Edited by: Meeko Atari on 02/03/2010 16:13:27 You guys do realize that Sensor Damps are a perfect counter to ECM right? and are usually fitter to ships with the highest sensor strength ( Lach, arazu ) they work every time you activate them and have been over nerfed. Why not ask for a buff instead, I know the Gallente ships need it, and also a buff to Web strength wouldn't hurt the Minmatar either I know a few Curse pilots that would like a better Vamp as well I say we fix the other recons edit grammar i campained (whined) for a damp buff already, damps stacking on eachother and with sensor boosters, poor bonuses, weaksauce rigs etc. however even perfect damps with great strength would allow a target to defence himself in other ways etc ECMs primary and only effect is way too strong and its not fun for anyone, the number of people who use a falcon in a small gang and appologise in local after with "sorry i hate ecm too, but dont blame the player, blame the game" That's what i'm saying... Lets fix the other E-war
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2010.03.02 16:36:00 - [118] Originally by: Dr Fighter however even perfect damps with great strength would allow a target to defence himself in other ways etc Its same for ecm - target can defend himself with drones, can move, but cant touch attacker /cant lock him/. Take arazu with long point and 3 damps and you can hold most ships without problems... Rook with 3x ecm can permajam most targets easy - if you have racial jammers, if you dont it isnt so hot... Btw i think this thread is big waste of whining potential in the time when dram is still flying out there unnerfed.
Silver Tree	Posted - 2010.03.02 16:46:00 - [119] Good stop crying like little babies, all the EW is balanced right now and **** it up again cuz you got jamed once god get a life
Daratori	Posted - 2010.03.02 17:27:00 - [120] I show up to a battle with a sensor booster, but wait! There's no sensor dampening against me, atleast i get to lock faster and longer \o/ I show up with a tracking computer but there's no tracking disruption against me. Atleast i can shoot longer and track better \o/ I show up with an eccm but there's no ecm against me. Atleast i completly wasted a slot on my ship...

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