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DHB WildCat Flash Over. WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.03.01 00:24:00 - [1] Trust me... as someone who both uses it, and has been screwed by it. Its time to change it completely. No other module in the game other than a doomsday can completely take a ship out of the fight. Yes I am saying that an ecm boat is as effective as a doomsday. Again as someone who uses it, I can easily say that ecm has saved my ass numerous times because I got into a situation I shouldnt have and took up to 5 ships out of the fight with 1 ship. This allowed me to leave or win. How to balance... No ship should be able to completely lock down up to 8 ships. It is overpowered and either needs to be balanced by reducing its strength or...... Give a major and I mean MAJOR boost to ECCM. Or third option. Give optimal about 20km, and then add scripts for range or strength. Scripts have ****ed up everything else in this game why not ecm too? am I alone in this thought or is it truely time to rectify overpowered modules and ships. WildCat
Atreus Tac Blood Covenant Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2010.03.01 00:28:00 - [2] i see white [/left]
Commander Godsmack	Posted - 2010.03.01 00:41:00 - [3] Originally by: DHB WildCat No ship should be able to completely lock down up to 8 ships. ECM disrupts lock on target ship(on a chance bases) So you cant "lock down " 8 other ships; can only disrupt 1 at a time, and I believe their success diminishes with each larger class ship you engage (frigate>BC>BS) As for even 5 ships that would mean 5 diff ECM modules at the same time - only like 1 ship that can pull that off (whatit called- something caldari criuser t2)
Theac Osiris Gallente Red Federation	Posted - 2010.03.01 00:47:00 - [4] Edited by: Theac Osiris on 01/03/2010 00:48:01 Would you like your whine broiled or grilled? #1) ECM does not "completely take a ship out of the fight". FoF missiles and drones still work, the ship can still maneuver, and most importantly, it's still alive. #2) No ship can completely lock down up to 8 ships. The only ship that has that many bonused ECM slots is the Scorpion, and you'd have to be crazy not to fit at least an MWD. Furthermore, it's chance based, so unless you're facing a swarm of frigates (against whom the effect of ECM is diminished since you're wasting your mods on weak, cheap ships), you are not going to be able to completely lock down every target. #3) Most ECM ships are paper-thin. If a DPS ship gets on top of them, they're generally toast. #4) ECM ships, surprisingly enough, can be ECMed, or sensor damped so hard they have to venture dangerously close into the enemy. If you're really having trouble with them, a flight of ECM drones can easily break their cycle and give you a chance to blow them to shreds. #5) ECM ships are to be pre-emptively considered "primary" #6) ECM will generally cause panic and disarray in an uncoordinated, unprepared fleet, but most good FCs will be able to neutralize it as a threat. ______________________________________________ Missions. They're like mining, but with guns.
Lili Lu	Posted - 2010.03.01 00:58:00 - [5] Originally by: Commander Godsmack Originally by: DHB WildCat No ship should be able to completely lock down up to 8 ships. ECM disrupts lock on target ship(on a chance bases) So you cant "lock down " 8 other ships; can only disrupt 1 at a time, and I believe their success diminishes with each larger class ship you engage (frigate>BC>BS) As for even 5 ships that would mean 5 diff ECM modules at the same time - only like 1 ship that can pull that off (whatit called- something caldari criuser t2) It appears from your comments Commander you don't have sufficient experience. What DHB probably is saying is that a Scorpion with all mids crammed with jammers could conceivably take 8 enemy ships out of a fight. Obviously it would involve ideal circumstances. But still even without ideal circumstances it is not unusual for a Scorp to remove 4 enemy ships from a fight. The ability to lock a target is so central to performing almost any combat action in the game. A tracking disrupted enemy can still use drones, still rep a buddy, possibly swap a script in a tacking computer to compensate. A jammed is ship is worth ****all and either has to sit on thumb for the cycle and hope the next cycle is missed or warp out if not tackled. With 30% bonuses that next cycle is likely to be successful as well. I would favor a buff to eccm, and the introduction of a new skill called sensor integrity or something, that would provide more effective counters to what is now 30% per level ecm boats. Calling for a nerf on ecm will inevitably fail. CCP cannot seem to nerf ecm boats like they nerf other boats/mods (nos, damps, webs), and oh the whines that will come in this thread. And so far there has been no hint that the devs are considering any change to the mechanics of ecm. So the only thing that might work to remove the joy of thumb in ass syndrome in eve battles is a buff to eccm, and a new skill to train to limit the effectiveness of opposing ecm.
Emperor Ryan Amarr Imperial Syndicate Forces Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2010.03.01 01:52:00 - [6] I was going to read it but then i saw the color was all wrong. - Emperor
Gambit Stryder Privateers	Posted - 2010.03.01 02:00:00 - [7] 2006 called, they want their whine thread back.
Poses	Posted - 2010.03.01 02:05:00 - [8] I'd be happy to see ECCM modules removed and have it exchanged for a scrip for a sebo (and maybe a light boost to its effect as well)
chatgris Quantum Cats Syndicate	Posted - 2010.03.01 02:13:00 - [9] Edited by: chatgris on 01/03/2010 02:15:35 Originally by: Theac Osiris #2) No ship can completely lock down up to 8 ships. The only ship that has that many bonused ECM slots is the Scorpion, and you'd have to be crazy not to fit at least an MWD. Furthermore, it's chance based, so unless you're facing a swarm of frigates (against whom the effect of ECM is diminished since you're wasting your mods on weak, cheap ships), you are not going to be able to completely lock down every target. I've done it in a scorp, 8 drakes at once (and caldari have the highest sensor strength). Usually I'm too busy jamming stuff to record it, but I did take a screenie to make into a signature once near the end of a fight where there were only a few drakes left. This is post ECM-range nerf. Got 5/6 there. I'm in the "ECM must die" camp myself, I fly it cause it's incredibly overpowered compared to other EWAR. But my main objection isn't its power, but it's anti-fun. I often try "lets charge into an enemy fleet and get a kill or two before I die" and ECM is the bane of that :(
Artemis Rose Sileo In Pacis THE SPACE P0LICE	Posted - 2010.03.01 02:57:00 - [10] A proud falcon alt user such as yourself is crying about ECM? *** Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine, Self Banstick +2 WTB: +666 E-peen killboard stats
Ashira Twilight	Posted - 2010.03.01 03:39:00 - [11] Mostly what ****es me off are the damn ECM drones. "Oh look, he put 2 small ECM drones on me, what are the odds that....omfg permajammed"
Kapse Locke Minmatar Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2010.03.01 04:14:00 - [12] Originally by: Atreus Tac i see whine Fix'd.
Lili Lu	Posted - 2010.03.01 04:16:00 - [13] Originally by: Ashira Twilight Mostly what ****es me off are the damn ECM drones. "Oh look, he put 2 small ECM drones on me, what are the odds that....omfg permajammed" what were you in a tech I frigate? Small ecm drones are not very effective. Medium ecm drones are somewhat good. Regardless, they are nothing compared to an ecm boat's 30% bonuses on a racial jammer. Forgot about the sensor booster eccm script idea. Yeah that would be good to add to the list of indirect ecm nerf suggestions, because we will not get a direct ecm nerf. And, even if we did, there would be a simultaneous buff (happened twice already). Of course we're still waiting CCP for the well after the fact now compensatory buffs to web, damp, and nos boats. . . in vain most likely. But watch we will probably get an ecm drone nerf, which is not needed, and not get any direct or indirect ecm nerf
Psychotic Maniac Caldari Head Shrinkers	Posted - 2010.03.01 09:14:00 - [14] with my luck it will be nerfed right after I train up some skills. ccp nerfed everything else I trained.
Havegooda Quantum Cats Syndicate	Posted - 2010.03.01 09:24:00 - [15] Originally by: DHB WildCat No ship should be able to completely lock down up to 8 ships. Best we've been able to do was 6 at once. The squids need to learn to not only use Drakes v0v http://www.chatgris.com/eve/ecmsig.png
Torpir Lee Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2010.03.01 09:40:00 - [16] DHB is one of the primary people to get hurt by ECM, considering his playstyle, so I'm not surprised at his frustration.
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.03.01 09:52:00 - [17] You can tweak the numbers all you want but ECM will still be ruining your game. It is the effect of ECM that has to change first and foremost. A 20 second long thumb-twiddling effect has no place in a game, might in a cinematic, but not a game. If it is to stay then at least add some lame elevator music or something Regardless of what we eventually end up with there is one thing that has to be included in considerations: ECM becomes downright game breaking as gang/hull size decreases. A single, even unbonused, module able to with neutralise any destroyer/frigate with 30-40% probability? A single ECM boat able to neutralise 3-5 sub-capital ships with almost certainty? * Counter modules (ECCM) needs to increase in power as hull-size (ie. available slots)/base sensor STR goes down, or * ECM needs to have power diminished as target size go down. * ECCM needs to have a secondary beneficial effect as it is currently the only 'counter module' that has no impact whatsoever if ECM is not on field. * An ECCM rig needs to be introduced. All other eWar (sans tackle)/counters has rigs to augment capability except for ECCM .. huge oversight.
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2010.03.01 10:08:00 - [18] New month new ecm whine. ECM is fine , it has been nerfed too many times already. If you dont like it ,who cares you dont have to like everything in eve. I for 1 like ecm and the other ewars , they are well balanced atm. Taking out these would mean pvp would be boringly simple.
Dr Fighter	Posted - 2010.03.01 10:12:00 - [19] ECM has been overpowered as a single EW type since its creation. even with the low strengths of sensors back in the day and the stacking sensor pionts method of jamming the effect was too powerful, 20 seconds out of a fight and likly 20 seconds consecutively is too much for loo long. ECM being chance based was a hugly poor idea however since chance has been applied to all EW with falloff ranges this is unlikly to change. ECM needs a radical change, it simply isnt fun at all effecting so many systems in the all or nothing way it does currently. A player in a sub BS might as well warp off/back once it has a falcon's attention. I dont play eve to make isk to pvp so my XXX isk ship is completly uless is every way when a fight with a falcon kicks off, and thats how many see it. If just one ecm ship shows up in any 10v10 sized battle it will RUIN the game for the 10 people who just had their gang reduced to 5 and alot less fun for the 10 who are whooping the 5 jammed guys. A falcon aside means if they fight it will suck and foten simply dont fight at all (thats IF they see each others cloaky falcon) Its like putting baby mice into a bag and stomping on them its that easy, only they are fully grown tigers but you are just one man still. Its that unballenced. The falcon nerfed helped HUGLY with the odds that any given fight will have a falcon in - this was a GOOD thing and NO ONE will say anything against that.
SR65 Amarr Core Impulse	Posted - 2010.03.01 10:25:00 - [20] Edited by: SR65 on 01/03/2010 10:26:24 I like how everyone says ECM is fine. How is a module that completely renders your offensive weapons useless with the click of a button "fine"? ECCM is pathetically weak compared to it to the point that I don't even fit it because of more useful things to use and hope some idiot with a Falcon alt doesn't show up. Then you get the people that say F.o.F. and Drones still work. lol I don't even need to explain why the part about F.o.F. is funny, but with drones, I kinda prefer my 700 or so DPS with my guns to my 200 or so DPS of drones. Plus the target just kills the drones and if you pull the drones in, there's no reassigning them when you're perma-jammed. I'm basically speaking from the specific scenario where you catch someone or he catches you and the fight is on. You appear to be doing well until a Falcon uncloaks 60km away and perma-jams you while you slowly die. Yeah, that's totally balanced. Anyway, useless argument that comes up once a month, but I gotta put my 2 pennies in.
Battlingbean Heaven's Gate	Posted - 2010.03.01 10:32:00 - [21] ECM isn't OP. I fly ECM ships and like others have pointed out it's not even close to locking anything down. The enemy can still move around, use drones,use smartbombs, tank is undamaged, fof and there are plenty of counters such as fitting ECCM, flying in a fleet of the same race and of course jam them first. Usually only one member of a fleet needs ECCM to force the jammer off grid. If you want to lock down a ship try the curse, which by the way will screw over ECM ships so bad its not even funny. Jamming other recons is difficult and with the curse when your jam fails you will be neutralized, dead in the water, unable to jam and ultimately popped. The only thing worth training Caldari have is ECM, please don't nerf it again.
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2010.03.01 10:36:00 - [22] Originally by: SR65 Edited by: SR65 on 01/03/2010 10:26:24 I like how everyone says ECM is fine. How is a module that completely renders your offensive weapons useless with the click of a button "fine"? ECCM is pathetically weak compared to it to the point that I don't even fit it because of more useful things to use and hope some idiot with a Falcon alt doesn't show up. Then you get the people that say F.o.F. and Drones still work. lol I don't even need to explain why the part about F.o.F. is funny, but with drones, I kinda prefer my 700 or so DPS with my guns to my 200 or so DPS of drones. Plus the target just kills the drones and if you pull the drones in, there's no reassigning them when you're perma-jammed. I'm basically speaking from the specific scenario where you catch someone or he catches you and the fight is on. You appear to be doing well until a Falcon uncloaks 60km away and perma-jams you while you slowly die. Yeah, that's totally balanced. Anyway, useless argument that comes up once a month, but I gotta put my 2 pennies in. Yeah ppl like this wants ewar nerfed , they can think only around dps,how boring that is.... these whines and nerfs following takes out the fun from pvp. About your specific scenario: oh you brought anything else than dps ships ,didnt you? Also no ships in your gang to counter possible ewar, also that 1 falcon can jamm out 4 enemies if he is lucky ,so the rest could just kill it.
SR65 Amarr Core Impulse	Posted - 2010.03.01 10:40:00 - [23] Originally by: Battlingbean ECM isn't OP. I fly ECM ships and like others have pointed out it's not even close to locking anything down. The enemy can still move around, use drones,use smartbombs, tank is undamaged, fof and there are plenty of counters such as fitting ECCM, flying in a fleet of the same race and of course jam them first. Usually only one member of a fleet needs ECCM to force the jammer off grid. If you want to lock down a ship try the curse, which by the way will screw over ECM ships so bad its not even funny. Jamming other recons is difficult and with the curse when your jam fails you will be neutralized, dead in the water, unable to jam and ultimately popped. The only thing worth training Caldari have is ECM, please don't nerf it again. If the Curse worked like the Falcon, it would drain all your cap instantly at the click of a button. Obviously on a chance basis though. Anyway, for me, the ECM problem is with a small fleet with Falcon vs another small fleet or when its 1v1 which turns into 2v1 with Falcon not on your side. Sure, my tank keeps on running but with enough time and that perma jammer, I'll eventually die to just about anything. Plus, I've personally witnessed many situations where overheated ECCM didn't let the pilot get a single lock for the duration of the fight.
SR65 Amarr Core Impulse	Posted - 2010.03.01 10:47:00 - [24] Originally by: Naomi Knight Yeah ppl like this wants ewar nerfed , they can think only around dps,how boring that is.... these whines and nerfs following takes out the fun from pvp. About your specific scenario: oh you brought anything else than dps ships ,didnt you? Also no ships in your gang to counter possible ewar, also that 1 falcon can jamm out 4 enemies if he is lucky ,so the rest could just kill it. Not really sure what you're on about, but I never stated I had a fleet on standby waiting to help kill a Falcon for me. Some people do still try to do some solo work when they can.
Javelin6 Dirt Nap Squad	Posted - 2010.03.01 10:47:00 - [25] Originally by: SR65 Edited by: SR65 on 01/03/2010 10:26:24 I'm basically speaking from the specific scenario where you catch someone or he catches you and the fight is on. You appear to be doing well until a Falcon uncloaks 60km away and perma-jams you while you slowly die. Yeah, that's totally balanced. Where was your cloaked support? Numerical superiority regardless of ECM was the winning factor there. That being said ECCM could use a boost. My suggestion is for them to use scripts that one: allow a large reduction of the chances of being jammed, or two: reduce the time that you are jammed. ____________________________________________
SR65 Amarr Core Impulse	Posted - 2010.03.01 10:55:00 - [26] Originally by: Javelin6 That being said ECCM could use a boost. My suggestion is for them to use scripts that one: allow a large reduction of the chances of being jammed, or two: reduce the time that you are jammed. I didn't say it was against a fleet. Just one guy with a Falcon alt. I thought this was a common thing?
Battlingbean Heaven's Gate	Posted - 2010.03.01 10:59:00 - [27] Originally by: SR65 If the Curse worked like the Falcon, it would drain all your cap instantly at the click of a button. It's so fast that's usually what happens. Originally by: SR65 Anyway, for me, the ECM problem is with a small fleet with Falcon vs another small fleet or when its 1v1 which turns into 2v1 with Falcon not on your side. Sure, my tank keeps on running but with enough time and that perma jammer, I'll eventually die to just about anything. It's 2v1 you should loose. If a friend showed up and RR is that OP too? At least this way you might dock or flee somehow instead of more dps on you. Originally by: SR65 Plus, I've personally witnessed many situations where overheated ECCM didn't let the pilot get a single lock for the duration of the fight. I guess you were just unlucky. I can tell when opponents have ECCM because it works. However maybe ECCM could be better I don't know.
Rashmika Clavain Gallente Revelation Space	Posted - 2010.03.01 11:24:00 - [28] Originally by: Gambit Stryder 2006 called, they want their whine thread back. This. Removed. Please keep your EVE signature related to your EVE persona and not that of a real life politician. Navigator
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2010.03.01 11:25:00 - [29] Imo ECM needs to be completely changed. A game mechanic that results in being forced to watch a timer count down and hoping the dice rolls favourable for you next time is a bad game mechanic imo.
Fortune Foru	Posted - 2010.03.01 11:44:00 - [30] /signed Actually I have a good reason to agree here. The reason why I enjoy EVE is unlike other games, probability is not a big part of the game. Rolling dice and hoping for the best is not something you want to tell your fleet. This is not the other game. When your UI requires you to have 2 or 3 decimal places and you need EFT to study setups, precision and expectation of ship performance is critical. Having a module that may or may not work does not fit with this paradigm. I think Jamming in game should be removed from PVP and PVE. Mind you I don't agree that Jamming takes you out of the fight as you can likely run or move out of their optimal. But that is still not good enough IMHO. What to do with the Falcon? I donno... give it a shield transfer bonus and make it a logistic recon might be fun. That way it will still be primary but worth flying.
arbalesttom Navy of Xoc Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2010.03.01 11:57:00 - [31] Yes, please change ECM. Its still one of the major mechanics that ** over small gang warfare. Sig**
The Tzar T-Wrecks	Posted - 2010.03.01 12:48:00 - [32] Don't forget that to counter the advantages that ECM has over the other forms of EWAR; - The ship has to fit 3 augmentative modules to make it's EWAR even half-way good whether they be sig. dist. amps or rigs. - No other form of EWAR is racially based. - No other form of EWAR is chance based. As others have said when your jammed you can still tank, manouver, drone, warp off. When your neuted you can't use cap based weapons, active tank, move any faster than impulse speed, warp off, use EWAR of your own AND it works on any ship size of any race with 100% chance of effect. Most people fit cap boosters on pvp ships just in case of neuting. Why don't people fit ECCM in the same way if ECM is that much of a problem? I would dearly love to have scripts on ECM mods for range/strength. WTB super ECM strength Rook plz Please resize your signature to the maximum allowed of 400 x 120 pixels.StevieSG
Ambo I've Got Nothing	Posted - 2010.03.01 12:55:00 - [33] ECM sure does take the fun out of smaller fights. It's fine in fleet warfare but in solo/small gang it's just silly. The inclusion of a single falcon in a small gang often changes things from 'Lets have a go' to 'Theres no point'. that's why it's un-fun. Trouble is, I can't think of a decent solution for it. In small gang/solo situations, it's always either going to be to weak to bother with or overpowered. Unless of course they change it totally and I just don't see that happening. --------------------------------------
Dr Fighter	Posted - 2010.03.01 12:58:00 - [34] Edited by: Dr Fighter on 01/03/2010 12:58:40 Originally by: The Tzar about nuets: Most people fit cap boosters on pvp ships just in case of neuting. Why don't people fit ECCM in the same way if ECM is that much of a problem? because pushing the eccm button does not let you lock again - its a module that sits there doing nothing consuming (very little) cap and only might help you not get jammed but in all likly hood you will be. Cap boosters as a counter to neuts work way way better. sensor boosters work as a counter to damps plus they get additional affect from stacking wiht the damps (this one reason why damps are rarly used) and dont forget they give you a nice actual primary effect tracking enhancers/comps help agianst TDs and are also helped by the stacking - not to mention TDs dont affect drones or missiles -at all- and ofc they have a very worth while primary affact. Also the piont a guy a few posts back made about the fact that 99% of stuff in eve is about precision, calcuations and accuracy yet THE most powerful and widspread EW machanic is chance based (the reasons why this is completly stupid in the first place - take a look at ecm drones, these explain how broken the ecm concept is better than any rant of mine)
LiNuXb0y Amarr Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2010.03.01 14:06:00 - [35] I have never had anyone give me a valid reason why all other ewar has to commit to under 30km and falcons dont, I think if people actually had to start fitting some kind of tank to their ecm ships there would be no issue. Sure its better now they aren't at 250km any more but seriously 60ish is still to far.
Battlingbean Heaven's Gate	Posted - 2010.03.01 14:08:00 - [36] Originally by: Dr Fighter Also the piont a guy a few posts back made about the fact that 99% of stuff in eve is about precision, calcuations and accuracy yet THE most powerful and widspread EW machanic is chance based (the reasons why this is completly stupid in the first place - take a look at ecm drones, these explain how broken the ecm concept is better than any rant of mine) How is calculating jamming probabilities any different? I make sure there is a great chance a jam will occur before the fight even begins otherwise I'm dead. If done right it's not that chance based and why everyone is whining like little girls.(ECM drones might be broken however)
Amishe Minmatar SUNDERING	Posted - 2010.03.01 14:13:00 - [37] Edited by: Amishe on 01/03/2010 14:15:58 Right now I'm still angry over a fight I had 3 days ago - I'm even considering quitting EVE because of it. Here's the story: Me (Hurricane) and a friend (Vagabond) are sitting in a system when two guys jump in. A hurricane jumps close to a station and my friend engages him. I warp to them and engage the Hurricane in the fight and a moment later my Vagabond friend pops. The hurricane were in 40% of his armor (armorbuffered) with me at 100% of my shieldbuffer. I know he had a friend in system, so I speeded towards the Hurricane so I could kill him as fast as I could before help would arrive. Now, my opponent are going down hard, 10% armor while me pretty high with ~80% shieldbuffer and then his friend appear 60km from me: A falcon. The Hurricane had me scrambled, which leaves me at like 200m/s sitting there like a brick and his Falcon friend jamming me. Okay, I endure the first 20 seconds of begin jammed.. and another 20 seconds... and another 20 seconds.. Poof goes my ship. So, even though my opponents Hurricane were 10-20 seconds away from popping, ECM leaves me to NOTHING. I couldn't warp, I couldn't control my drones, I couldn't shoot back - there was NOTHING I could do to counter this at all. It felt so friggin bad, where's the balance? The pilot flying the Falcon even said he were sorry for abusing ECM and said he wanted it nerfed himself. Now, yes, this is a whine - but sitting there for a minute not being able to do anything than slowboat really screwed the gaming experience for me. I haven't logged on EVE since this happened and I don't really feel the urge to play anymore. Goodbye.
Laechyd Eldgorn Caldari Toy Factory Exalted.	Posted - 2010.03.01 14:45:00 - [38] Okay here's newsflash. If you once jammed maybe what 6 ships for once cycle it doesn't mean you can always do it. Of course possibility increases quite a bit if opponent has chosen high dps low sensor strenght ships like cough amarr/minmatar which usually have pitiful sensors, in many cases for a good reason. There's no need at all for asking boost for ECCM because it's pretty powerful already. How about first using ECCM then crying about it. :D You have always option to fly tech 3 ship with 150++ sensor strenght if you really want. IF ecm was nerfed all caldari ecm ships would need quite major oomph. Because they're pretty much crap for anything else than jamming. Ewar drones should be removed though, especially ecm ones. At least until they're fixed. ECM drones are really too powerful because you can just stick them in any ship and their ecm strenght cannot really be balanced in sensible way as it is now. Then there's this thing with falcon. I think while falcon probably isn't that good ship it's boring. Everyone wants to have saving angel alt and so they will. Problem with falcon is that it can cloak and jam both so it's easy to use with alt :p If ecm itself would be so uber powerful everyone would probably have scorpion/blackbird alts or something :P
Kapse Locke Minmatar Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2010.03.01 15:05:00 - [39] Originally by: Amishe Goodbye. Considering how hard your beef curtains were flapping in the wind there, I say good riddance.
Pan Zhu'Liang Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2010.03.01 15:27:00 - [40] if ECM does get changed I think the only direction to take it is more reliable but less crippling. perhaps make sensor strength reduce jam time instead of reducing jam chance. that would make ECCM more appealing as well. Every time a player got jammed he'd say, "good thing i have that eccm so i can lock sometime soon," as opposed to never really knowing if your eccm did anything at all.
Th0rG0d Pilots From Honour	Posted - 2010.03.01 15:43:00 - [41] I agree things need to change. ECCM needs to provide a reliable counter. ECM still needs to remain chance based, but it should only break lock, allowing the target to begin to re-target immediately. Or possibly re-target with a reduced sensor strength. Then if the player has ECCM fitted, it counters the ECM from reducing the sensor strength. Keep the ECM modules duration ~15-20 seconds so that it gives the target a chance to re-target and unleash a new volley. ECM would still be disruptive, powerful, and irritating as it should be. But not ever permanent, and would still give pilots a feeling that they might still be able to do something productive. Maybe even introduce "ship sized" modules. Frigate ECM can only fit on the Griffin and Kitsune, and they can jam frigates and above(with decrease in power). Cruiser ECM can only fit on BB and Falcon/Rook and can jam cruisers and above(again decreasing power against larger boats). The Scorp gets the big boys and can only jam other BS and bigger(with no decrease in power except for relative sensor strength changes). ..... Don't know if any of these ideas work... -------------------------------------- Adrift in New Eden
Arrador	Posted - 2010.03.01 15:44:00 - [42] Originally by: Gambit Stryder 2006 called, they want their whine thread back. qft
Haxfar Portlaind	Posted - 2010.03.01 15:49:00 - [43] Originally by: Pan Zhu'Liang if ECM does get changed I think the only direction to take it is more reliable but less crippling. perhaps make sensor strength reduce jam time instead of reducing jam chance. that would make ECCM more appealing as well. Every time a player got jammed he'd say, "good thing i have that eccm so i can lock sometime soon," as opposed to never really knowing if your eccm did anything at all. To me that sounds somewhat appealing... Yeah i fly rook and BB. What sometimes gets on my nerves as a ecm user is those damned missed jams. If all fails, and you just fire them after each other you got some 30 sec to next change. Reducing the length on the jam time might put even more pressure on the ecm pilot.
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.03.01 15:50:00 - [44] This is all very familiar
Haxfar Portlaind	Posted - 2010.03.01 16:47:00 - [45] Originally by: Malcanis This is all very familiar hmm... seems so. I think the problem is too many is either completely against it or wont have it removed... It's that damned compromise
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.03.01 16:58:00 - [46] Well I'm done arguing about ECM. It barely has a presence in the PvP I see from day to day. A few scorps in big fleets, and that's it.
Meeko Atari	Posted - 2010.03.01 17:01:00 - [47] So just a tally of what ccp needs to nerf this month... All angel ships all ECM boats lasers, auto cannons hmm... Let's just remove all ships except 1 that way everything will be fair and balanced no reason to even learn how to fit your ship or learn to counter anything or even fly with a gang we can all mine in jita
Dr Fighter	Posted - 2010.03.01 17:05:00 - [48] Originally by: Pan Zhu'Liang if ECM does get changed I think the only direction to take it is more reliable but less crippling. perhaps make sensor strength reduce jam time instead of reducing jam chance. that would make ECCM more appealing as well. Every time a player got jammed he'd say, "good thing i have that eccm so i can lock sometime soon," as opposed to never really knowing if your eccm did anything at all. holy crap this is actually a really nice idea. More strength means a cycle reduction of upto say 50% in the cycle time, i dodnt know how the maths would work. Of course im still majorly in favour of a different effect entirely
bff Jill	Posted - 2010.03.01 17:09:00 - [49] ECM is the only thing in the entire game that is a counter to everything.
Zilberfrid	Posted - 2010.03.01 17:18:00 - [50] How about ECCM recalculating the lock chance every cycle (thus an active mod)?
bff Jill	Posted - 2010.03.01 17:25:00 - [51] how about making eccm make you immune to ecm. A single ship forcing the entire enemy fleet to waste one module slot is powerful enough. nerf falcons.
Kirzath Genos Occidere	Posted - 2010.03.01 17:31:00 - [52] I would quite enjoy being able to fly any T2 frigate without the fear of being solo'd by a Griffin with ECM. Frigates don't have the midslots to spare for ECCM and the lowslot alternative isn't hardly as effective.
Suitonia Gallente Genos Occidere Sev3rance	Posted - 2010.03.01 17:38:00 - [53] Just delete it from the game. ---
Terianna Eri Amarr Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn	Posted - 2010.03.01 17:40:00 - [54] Originally by: bff Jill ECM is the only thing in the entire game that is a counter to everything. NUH UH IT CANT COUNTER SMARTBOMBS SO ITS BALANCED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ________________ Originally by: CCP Incognito PS the "time to P*nis" is the shortest time recorded in human history. :)
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2010.03.01 17:54:00 - [55] Originally by: Kirzath I would quite enjoy being able to fly any T2 frigate without the fear of being solo'd by a Griffin with ECM. Frigates don't have the midslots to spare for ECCM and the lowslot alternative isn't hardly as effective. lol Griffin the frig killer just lol. Realy this is what why ecm should be nerfed????? Why not nerf you ships and modules? Just check killboards there are way less ecm ships than turret ships ,lets nerf turrets.
Kirzath Genos Occidere	Posted - 2010.03.01 18:07:00 - [56] Originally by: Naomi Knight lol Griffin the frig killer just lol. Realy this is what why ecm should be nerfed????? You really think being able to comfortably engage and kill any other frigate hull with a T1 frigate that costs 3M after modules without having to worry about them shooting back is balanced in any way? Even a Helios with ECM can be an effective anti-frigate platform, only because of the ECM. You really have no idea how frustrating it can be.
bff Jill	Posted - 2010.03.01 18:20:00 - [57] How about just making it so you don't lose lock when you are jammed.
Seriously Bored Minmatar	Posted - 2010.03.01 18:28:00 - [58] Originally by: T*G0d I agree things need to change. ECCM needs to provide a reliable counter. ECM still needs to remain chance based, but it should only break lock, allowing the target to begin to re-target immediately. Or possibly re-target with a reduced sensor strength. Then if the player has ECCM fitted, it counters the ECM from reducing the sensor strength. Keep the ECM modules duration ~15-20 seconds so that it gives the target a chance to re-target and unleash a new volley. ECM would still be disruptive, powerful, and irritating as it should be. But not ever permanent, and would still give pilots a feeling that they might still be able to do something productive. I really think this is an awesome idea. (Even though I think ECM isn't so totally overpowered these days.) ECM currently knocks a ship out for 20 seconds + relock time, at a percent chance to have an effect. Having it instantly break locks + slow relock time would be far more interesting, and at least make you feel like you're doing something while you're not shooting. Interestingly ECM would be more useful VS larger ships then... I suppose the argument would be over whether it's still chance based or whether it fires every time, but has slow recharge. I could see racial ECMs penalizing the relock more for their intended race. Anyway, great idea. It actually sounds fun, which is what's missing right now.
Sokratesz	Posted - 2010.03.01 18:36:00 - [59] How stupid does this idea sound: Make ECM decrease the max. # of locked targets of a ship. CSM Iceland meeting minutes - READ THEM :D
Dr Fighter	Posted - 2010.03.01 18:41:00 - [60] Originally by: Sokratesz How stupid does this idea sound: Make ECM decrease the max. # of locked targets of a ship. I thought of this a few times now. Could be a side effect combined with somthing else, generally 1 target is all thats needed for all but logistics/other ew ships. So, on its own its a bit weak imo
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2010.03.01 18:50:00 - [61] Originally by: Sokratesz How stupid does this idea sound: Make ECM decrease the max. # of locked targets of a ship. Very and I mean VERY stupid. At least we see you are not a csm for your creativity,hopefully it ends soon. Ideas like this cripples game balances more than anything.
Kirzath Genos Occidere	Posted - 2010.03.01 18:52:00 - [62] The only real issue I have with ECM is that it doesn't scale very well. Other forms of e-war are equally effective across all ship classes and sizes. ECM is more effective against smaller ships, making it much easier to jam a frigate than a battleship. A tracking disruptor would decease the tracking of either ship equally, ECM would perma-jam one and be an occasional nuisance for the other. Changing ECM would require a lot of thinking in order to not completely obsolete the current system of racial sensor strength. I'd actually be happy if ECM was changed in the following manner: Jams for 10 seconds but the cycle time remains at 20 seconds. It's still disrupting but less penalizing for frigates especially: being able to reacquire locks quickly between cycles is compensation for being so much easier to jam in the first place.
Meeko Atari	Posted - 2010.03.01 19:00:00 - [63] Originally by: Kirzath The only real issue I have with ECM is that it doesn't scale very well. Other forms of e-war are equally effective across all ship classes and sizes. ECM is more effective against smaller ships, making it much easier to jam a frigate than a battleship. A tracking disruptor would decease the tracking of either ship equally, ECM would perma-jam one and be an occasional nuisance for the other. Changing ECM would require a lot of thinking in order to not completely obsolete the current system of racial sensor strength. I'd actually be happy if ECM was changed in the following manner: Jams for 10 seconds but the cycle time remains at 20 seconds. It's still disrupting but less penalizing for frigates especially: being able to reacquire locks quickly between cycles is compensation for being so much easier to jam in the first place. Ever flown a Falcon in a fleet? the first jam you miss allows a very eager battleship to insta pop you in a 100mill isk Recon. ECM has been nerfed so many times i think it's time for the masses to adapt or buff other forms of e-war, kinda like noone wants OP lasers nerfed so they buff everything else to compensate.
Kirzath Genos Occidere	Posted - 2010.03.01 19:38:00 - [64] Originally by: Meeko Atari Ever flown a Falcon in a fleet? the first jam you miss allows a very eager battleship to insta pop you in a 100mill isk Recon. Be smart and stagger two ECM Modules on the same target to make sure it stays jammed. IMO using two midslots to shut down a ship is more balanced than what it is currently. Also, why would you fly a Falcon without a LSE or a plate? You can always warp out just fine if **** starts hitting the fan.
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2010.03.01 19:55:00 - [65] Originally by: Kirzath Originally by: Meeko Atari Ever flown a Falcon in a fleet? the first jam you miss allows a very eager battleship to insta pop you in a 100mill isk Recon. Be smart and stagger two ECM Modules on the same target to make sure it stays jammed. IMO using two midslots to shut down a ship is more balanced than what it is currently. Also, why would you fly a Falcon without a LSE or a plate? You can always warp out just fine if **** starts hitting the fan. Not realy , falcon has to fit tank now so that means it has 4 or less ecms or weak ecms if it armor tanks. I realy cant see that op ship you are talking about. Oh and if it misses the jamm your second jammer on the target wont guarantee a jamm. So you have flown a falcon recently in a fleet or not? It seems you have unrealistic idea what a falcon can do.
Sokratesz	Posted - 2010.03.01 20:23:00 - [66] Originally by: Naomi Knight Originally by: Sokratesz How stupid does this idea sound: Make ECM decrease the max. # of locked targets of a ship. Very and I mean VERY stupid. At least we see you are not a csm for your creativity,hopefully it ends soon. Ideas like this cripples game balances more than anything. and taking ships out of the fight completely isn't game balance crippling? CSM Iceland meeting minutes - READ THEM :D
Kirzath Genos Occidere	Posted - 2010.03.01 20:32:00 - [67] Originally by: Naomi Knight So you have flown a falcon recently in a fleet or not? It seems you have unrealistic idea what a falcon can do. Have you?
Bodega Cat	Posted - 2010.03.01 20:52:00 - [68] ECM is a unique complexity. We need more of these elements not less if you ask me. The notion that tank + gank is what wins the fights alone is rather simplistic in my opinion, and ECM is a sentiment that challenges that narrow view on combat. Those that are uncomfortable with it want it removed entirely, those that appreciate it want it embraced and re-worked in a more suitable fashion that both takes care of the ships (doesn't make them obsolete entirely) that are expected to bring it, and use it.
Battlingbean Heaven's Gate	Posted - 2010.03.01 21:01:00 - [69] I'm not sure people realize how risky flying a falcon really is. Once you decloak YOU MUST JAM EVERYONE or your dead or have to leave grid. Only one person requires ECCM in the fleet to get rid of the falcon. Don't nerf ECM but make other Ewar better.
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.03.01 21:01:00 - [70] Originally by: Bodega Cat ...Those that are uncomfortable with it want it removed entirely, those that appreciate it want it embraced and re-worked in a more suitable fashion that both takes care of the ships (doesn't make them obsolete entirely) that are expected to bring it, and use it. I hate it with a vengeance, yet want it to exist (albeit in an altered form) to add to the variety and options of the game .. where would I fit into your nicely ordered black/white world? When 1 Griffin + 1 Punisher utterly annihilates 3 Thrashers with zero effort something is broken (I was the Punisher) .. it scales horrendously and has a very bad mechanic at its core (20s of inactivity for target). Fix those two points and you can have all the ECM you want
Kirzath Genos Occidere	Posted - 2010.03.01 21:17:00 - [71] Edited by: Kirzath on 01/03/2010 21:22:31 Originally by: Battlingbean I'm not sure people realize how risky flying a falcon really is. Once you decloak YOU MUST JAM EVERYONE or your dead or have to leave grid. Only one person requires ECCM in the fleet to get rid of the falcon. I don't mind falcons in fleet situations. They have their role. The only problem I have with ECM is in 1v1 scenarios. ECM is an "I win" button, and those shouldn't exist in EVE (with the exception of DDDs) How am I supposed to counter this?
Battlingbean Heaven's Gate	Posted - 2010.03.01 21:45:00 - [72] Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Edited by: Hirana Yoshida on 01/03/2010 21:08:13 Originally by: Battlingbean I'm not sure people realize how risky flying a falcon really is. Once you decloak YOU MUST JAM EVERYONE or your dead or have to leave grid. Only one person requires ECCM in the fleet to get rid of the falcon. Don't nerf ECM but make other Ewar better. Do you realise that not everything revolves around BS blobs of various compositions? That one Falcon will completely demolish 3-4 BC and down with not a chance in hell of dying. The reduced range of 50-80km is well outside the reach of a vast majority of actual sub-BS hulls. Bigger fleet brawls have ALL eWar at a disadvantage, but Eve thankfully has other things for us to do and ECM just happens to absolutely dominate anything "small scale" - dominate beyond reason. Thats true if they make no attempt to counter ECM.
ABITA Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2010.03.01 21:47:00 - [73] Naah, ECM is fine.
Deus Ex'Machina The-Machine	Posted - 2010.03.01 21:54:00 - [74] Make ECM clear the locked targets of the ship being used against, increase duration to 30 seconds. Fixed. - Arkanon: EXPLAIN YOURSELF, EVILDOER! Sharkbait: Dude.
Joe Censored Unknown-Entity Black Star Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.01 21:56:00 - [75] ECM have been nerfed plenty over the years already, and ECM is the one thing the Caldari have going for them PVP wise. Nerfing ECM even more would take away really the only advantage the Caldari pilots have in a PVP fight. ECM is fine the way it is, go pick on another race other than the Caldari
Oriss Amarr	Posted - 2010.03.01 22:00:00 - [76] Originally by: Sokratesz Originally by: Naomi Knight Originally by: Sokratesz How stupid does this idea sound: Make ECM decrease the max. # of locked targets of a ship. Very and I mean VERY stupid. At least we see you are not a csm for your creativity,hopefully it ends soon. Ideas like this cripples game balances more than anything. and taking ships out of the fight completely isn't game balance crippling? No, or by that logic DPS would be game balance crippling. The only logical argument for this is that it is "boring" for the person being jammed. Boo hoo. There are innumerable counters to ECM. Move out of range of the ECM'er, fit ECCM, leave the fight, bring superior numbers, plenty of things. A scorpion with 8 racial jammers can reliably lock down 2 battleships with almost perfect skills. This makes it have no speed mods, often requires it to have a low tank, and if you have more than two battleships, the scorpion is going to be primaried leaving it a smoking wreck. Just because ECM makes you think about other ways to take out the target besides sit there and play bloody knuckles with the target until one gives doesn't mean it's op. Also, 2006 retro-whine.
NightmareX Infinitus Odium Scum Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.01 22:09:00 - [77] Edited by: NightmareX on 01/03/2010 22:15:58 ECM is fine. The thing that is not that fine is ECCM. I think ECCM should give you better chance to not get jammed and on top of that have 50% lower jam time when you get jammed if you have an ECCM fitted. So if you get jammed, then you get jammed by 10 seconds instead of 20 if you have 1x ECCM fitted. Or if you have 2x ECCM fitted, then you get jammed for 5 seconds instead. But the chance to get jammed is still there. So i think if you use up 2x Med slots for an ECCM, then you should get rewarded for it to by having lower jam time and having bigger chance to not get jammed. I personally think that will bring more balance to the ECM / ECCM thing. But then, i'm not an expert on this ECM / ECCM thing, so if the idea is bad, then let me know heh. Director of Infinitus Odium.
stoicfaux	Posted - 2010.03.01 22:25:00 - [78] Make ECM work like a reverse target painter? If you're ECM'd, your targets get a reduction in sig size (or you get an increase your weapons' explosion radius/signature resolution values.) Your guns and missiles do less damage without being always reduced to zero, but you can still hit large targets with smaller weapons. Sig penalizing ECM plus frigates could be really interesting. ----- "Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you! -- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
Beholdr	Posted - 2010.03.02 00:10:00 - [79] tl;dr Change the way a ship's sensor strength affects being jammed to also decrease jam time if sensor strength is greater than jam strength. Basically make a ship's sensor strength reduce the length of a jam cycle based on how much higher a ship's sensor strength is over the jamming strength. The jamming would still be chance based, and wouldn't change at all in that department. Using nice round numbers here. Ship X has a Sensor Strength [SS] of 10. Falcon A has a Jam Strength [JS] of 10. Falcon A gets a successful jam cycle on Ship X, and since the JS is greater than or equal to Ship X's SS, it gets a full 20 second jam cycle. Ship X dies, and refits with an ECCM. For sake of easy maths, lets say his new SS is 20. Falcon A still has a JS of 10. Falcon A is a lucky bugger and manages to get a jam cycle on Ship X, but since his JS is less than the SS of Ship X, he only gets a 15 second jam cycle, but the ECM module still takes 20 seconds to cycle again. This new system would include diminishing returns in the form of minimum jam cycle times. No matter how high your sensor strength, the minimum cycle for a successful jam is 10 seconds. Now lets say Ship Y has a SS of 30, compared to Falcon A's JS of 10. If Falcon A gets a successful jam cycle off, he would be looking at a 12.5 second jam. Ship Y remembers to turn on his ECCM and his SS jumps up to 60. Now since the SS is more than 5x higher than the JS of Falcon A, the minimum jam time goes into effect of 10 seconds. Reduced jam times work as such: SS <= JS = -0s SS 2x JS = -5s SS 3x JS = -7.5s SS 4x JS = -8.75s SS 5x JS = -9.375s SS 6x JS = -9.6875s Etc.
Kirzath Genos Occidere	Posted - 2010.03.02 00:18:00 - [80] Originally by: Beholdr tl;dr Change the way a ship's sensor strength affects being jammed to also decrease jam time if sensor strength is greater than jam strength. And frigates are still shafted when it comes to countering ECM, lovely
Mahke Aeon Of Strife Discord.	Posted - 2010.03.02 00:20:00 - [81] ECM nerf perhaps went too far, def. not too weak. Ditto for Orange nerf
Beholdr	Posted - 2010.03.02 00:25:00 - [82] Originally by: Kirzath And frigates are still shafted when it comes to countering ECM, lovely Well what can I say, Frigates aren't meant to be the all encompassing badass ship of the entire game. They're small, fast, and hard to hit, do you want them to be able to fit doomsdays and tank over 9000 DPS while being immune to all forms of EWAR too? Sarcasm aside, more often than not a frigate isnt going to be top priority in the jamming order, unless it is the only ship there or the only one fitted with a warp scrambler, in which case that side of the fight deserves to lose.
Kirzath Genos Occidere	Posted - 2010.03.02 00:42:00 - [83] Edited by: Kirzath on 02/03/2010 00:43:04 I'll ask again, how am I supposed to counter this? All it takes is a single T1 frigate that doesn't have to spend any more than 1M total on fittings to completely and utterly shut down my own ship, which it can then slowly whittle down and destroy with impunity.
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2010.03.02 00:53:00 - [84] Originally by: Kirzath I'll ask again, how am I supposed to counter this? Uhm, bring an amarr, caldari or gallente frig? If you are facing a griffin that has the proper racial jammer for your ship type, thats tough luck for your frigate, deal with it.
Braitai Ice Fire Warriors	Posted - 2010.03.02 00:59:00 - [85] Originally by: Poses I'd be happy to see ECCM modules removed and have it exchanged for a scrip for a sebo (and maybe a light boost to its effect as well) This isn't a bad idea.
Noisrevbus Caldari Breams Gone Wild	Posted - 2010.03.02 03:28:00 - [86] The only problem with ECM is that it remains too extreme. It still feel hopeless when it succeeds, yet nerfing it more would ruin the ships and throw the larger balance (eg., RR). That also forces the mechanic to stay dumbed down and the ships that use it limited outside of ECM, which is quite boring. The ships and modules get limited because the effect is so powerful. The steps that were taken with the ECM nerf only served a half-way attempt at making Caldari Recons more in line with other Recons. I'm not necessarily saying there are any major flaws with ECM at the moment, but if you want further change it needs further tuning where you tone down the effect while tuning up the ships and also manage to maintain the concept so RR doesn't become nigh impossible to counter. RR effects have already become more common than ECM after all. I'm still in a favour of this approach: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1259439&page=1#28 Let me give you an outline: 1. ECM modules would work akin to the burst ECM module you see today. 2. It's base range is reduced substantially (eg., 6+6) to balance it's use on unbonused ships. 3. Recons recieve range bonuses and common mechanics (in this case falloff) control chance. 4. ECM strength versus sensor strength chance by balancing optimal versus falloff. 5. Effectively turning counters into a tactical disposition that don't stipulate an arms race of stacking modules. 6. Essentially that means, fitting ECCM can be a good choice, but overstacking either ECM or ECCM is never ideal. 7. That will turn the effect more in line with how Sensor dampeners and Turret destabilizers work and relate to counters. 8. You may use a mod or two to achieve an effect, yet you tend not to stack them beyond achieving what you set out to do. 9. You don't stack counter mods against them, you change your disposition (give up range advantages, fight in falloff etc). 10. In that same sense ECCM will relate to ECM as TD's relate to Turrets, or Damps relate to sensors overall. Let's illustrate that with some example figures: 1. Base module, range 6+6 (max skills) 2. Recon range bonuses 75% optimal, 150% falloff / level = (45+90) 3. Recon 16 ECM str vs. Cruiser 16 sensor str = 45+90 range 4. Recon 16 ECM str vs. ECCM Cruiser 32 sensor str = 22.5 + 112.5 range 5. Unbonused (burst-) ECM 9 vs. Battleship 22 = 41% = 2.46 + 9.54 range The last figure there show how a change of the system would affect an unbonused burst ECM going from the 6+6 range with 9 sensor strength chance of effect today, into roughly a 2.5 + 9.5 range of 100% and 50% flat chance of effect. Making it better both in the high and low extremes (thus more balanced) but hopefully less effective in the middle range. I should be completely honest and say that i can be arsed to run the equation at this hour, so it could be a poor example if the burst doesn't have a higher chance than 50% in it's optimal today. You should still get a gist of how i intend the balance of range over chance, poor example or not. Now, i need some sleep. Goodnight!
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.03.02 07:26:00 - [87] Originally by: Battlingbean Thats true if they make no attempt to counter ECM. And that is the crux of the matter. Sub-BS hulls have precious little slots to spare and low'ish base-sensor strengths .. which makes the only counter to bring MOAR DUDES! ECM would be fine if we were playing '3D BattleShips' but since we are not something has to give. Here is the out-of-box (and slightly insane) suggestion: Make ECM do what it does in the real world; disrupt electronics/communications. Upon a successful Jam the targets overview, chat channels, target locks (anything with text/icons basically), blurs to the point of being unrecognisable, all brackets disappear and locked targets are shuffled. Effect: Still in full control but has no idea what the hell is going on or who he just blasted in the face. Minimizes/removes ECM crippling the solo/small-gang scenario. That I would like to see, but doubt its even remotely possible
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2010.03.02 08:48:00 - [88] Edited by: Naomi Knight on 02/03/2010 08:54:55 Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Originally by: Battlingbean Thats true if they make no attempt to counter ECM. And that is the crux of the matter. Sub-BS hulls have precious little slots to spare and low'ish base-sensor strengths .. which makes the only counter to bring MOAR DUDES! ECM would be fine if we were playing '3D BattleShips' but since we are not something has to give. Here is the out-of-box (and slightly insane) suggestion: Make ECM do what it does in the real world; disrupt electronics/communications. Upon a successful Jam the targets overview, chat channels, target locks (anything with text/icons basically), blurs to the point of being unrecognisable, all brackets disappear and locked targets are shuffled. Effect: Still in full control but has no idea what the hell is going on or who he just blasted in the face. Minimizes/removes ECM crippling the solo/small-gang scenario. That I would like to see, but doubt its even remotely possible Now this would make it completly useless. The only change I could think of is that ecm makes you miss with your guns,ewar,other projected modules,maybe even with your self affecting modules too. So when you are jammed you could still lock/keep locked targets,but when a module is activated or starting a new cycle there would be a miss calculation which would result in completly negating any effect for the durration of the cycle. Note that this miss chance could be calculated with jammer str/ship(sensor) str ratio.
Arch Widowmaker Blood Money Inc. The Blood Money Cartel	Posted - 2010.03.02 09:24:00 - [89] Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Here is the out-of-box (and slightly insane) suggestion: Make ECM do what it does in the real world; disrupt electronics/communications. Upon a successful Jam the targets overview, chat channels, target locks (anything with text/icons basically), blurs to the point of being unrecognisable, all brackets disappear and locked targets are shuffled. Effect: Still in full control but has no idea what the hell is going on or who he just blasted in the face. Minimizes/removes ECM crippling the solo/small-gang scenario. That I would like to see, but doubt its even remotely possible On Ventrilo.. ================================ Jake gets jammed.. Bob: Jake, you're shooting on me, switch targets. Jake: How about now? Bob: You're shooting secondary. Jake: And now? Bob: Yep, primary is going down, excellent! Tools outside the game would make it easy to "see" what the client isn't telling you.
Katarlia Simov Minmatar Cowboys From Hell	Posted - 2010.03.02 09:32:00 - [90] We all know that ECM is far from perfect. Thing really is that its the only viable counter to a lot of things (all of which have been subject to whines of their own). Remote rep gangs ? Jam them. Too much DPS ? Jam them. If there weren't jammers, then a lot of already powerful tactics would be near impossible to kill, or certainly not worth a shot at engaging, especially now that almost nothing brings its own tank, just EHP. If you can shut off the reppers, then you can kill anyone you want. Its a force multiplier. It makes your gang a lot more effective, all at the cost of having one basically useless ship that can't tank or do damage or anything really. If your taking out a small gang, then you sure a **** want some ECM with you, as an alternative to tank. Its not perfect, but thats how it is.
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2010.03.02 09:38:00 - [91] Originally by: Arch Widowmaker Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Here is the out-of-box (and slightly insane) suggestion: Make ECM do what it does in the real world; disrupt electronics/communications. Upon a successful Jam the targets overview, chat channels, target locks (anything with text/icons basically), blurs to the point of being unrecognisable, all brackets disappear and locked targets are shuffled. Effect: Still in full control but has no idea what the hell is going on or who he just blasted in the face. Minimizes/removes ECM crippling the solo/small-gang scenario. That I would like to see, but doubt its even remotely possible On Ventrilo.. ================================ Jake gets jammed.. Bob: Jake, you're shooting on me, switch targets. Jake: How about now? Bob: You're shooting secondary. Jake: And now? Bob: Yep, primary is going down, excellent! Tools outside the game would make it easy to "see" what the client isn't telling you. Yeah something like this, it also would be completly useless in solo or small gang, completly useless against close range ships , they would just keep shooting and wouldnt care about being jammed or not.
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.03.02 09:49:00 - [92] Originally by: Naomi Knight The only change I could think of is that ecm makes you miss with your guns,ewar,other projected modules,maybe even with your self affecting modules too. Now we are cooking. Biggest hurdle we face is to discard the "old ways" of thinking. With a 100% jam chance and the effects being modifiable by ECCM it comes a lot closer to the way everything else works in Eve. Curious as to how you would solve the solo/small-gang being completely demolished by ECM. Originally by: Arch Widowmaker Tools outside the game would make it easy to "see" what the client isn't telling you. I considered that, but if you cannot distinguish between blue/red, ship sizes etc? Once you have ten or more people around any sort of 'timely' targeting becomes practically impossible .. if we made a jam temporarily cancel overview settings it would be as crippling as now but with none of the cinematic thumb-twiddly - you can act, but largely ineffective. Originally by: Naomi Knight Yeah something like this, it also would be completly useless in solo or small gang, completly useless against close range ships , they would just keep shooting and wouldnt care about being jammed or not. How is the current state where a single ECM boat essentially guarantees victory when gang/ship sizes go down any better?
Katarlia Simov Minmatar Cowboys From Hell	Posted - 2010.03.02 11:29:00 - [93] Hold up... You think its better to make it basically impossible to do anything so you have to sit and twiddle your thumbs than simply having to sit and twiddle your thumbs ? Especially the whole not knowing who you're firing on stuff ... How far are you going to go with that ? Scrambled over-view... hmmmm ... maybe ... but can you still click on people in space ? Cuz if you can still see their names or ship types, you achieve nothing. If you make it so that you cant safely shoot anything, then you make it the same as it is now. Its not a great idea tbh.
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.03.02 11:43:00 - [94] Originally by: Katarlia Simov Hold up... You think its better to make it basically impossible to do anything so you have to sit and twiddle your thumbs than simply having to sit and twiddle your thumbs ? Especially the whole not knowing who you're firing on stuff ... How far are you going to go with that ? Scrambled over-view... hmmmm ... maybe ... but can you still click on people in space ? Cuz if you can still see their names or ship types, you achieve nothing. If you make it so that you cant safely shoot anything, then you make it the same as it is now. Its not a great idea tbh. It's all about psychology, all good games/game-play taps into that to achieve everything from shock to amazement - disregard it at your own peril. Who cares whether the idea is good or not, its an example shedding the old dogma .. what's the point of perpetually tweaking a fundamentally broken system, it will never be mended unless it undergoes major surgery.
Larinioides cornutus	Posted - 2010.03.02 11:44:00 - [95] Shameless plug On a side note: All other forms of ewars also let you to move your ship, use fof and drone to various degrees.
Fumitsugu The Tuskers	Posted - 2010.03.02 11:53:00 - [96] Edited by: Fumitsugu on 02/03/2010 11:55:28 Edited by: Fumitsugu on 02/03/2010 11:54:30 How about making ECM much much stronger (on bonused ships), but giving it zero or very short duration? You disrupt the targeting ability of the target ship with more precision, but they can instantly relock, penalising larger ships, which have a stronger sig strength anyway, because of their poor scan res? Frigates would get jammed even more easily, but they would be able to relock in a couple of seconds, but still easily enough time to make a difference when killing drones or tackling. It would de-nerf the scan-res-scripted RSD too methinks? Now, as for target painters... ed. seems I went afk for 10 before posting this. ed.2. I actually like ECM though, don't touch it!
kessah M. Corp Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2010.03.02 11:57:00 - [97] I actually agree, now to some people they see only from one solitary perspective on this and that is from fleet warfare. Large numbers, so ECM to them seem justifiably fine. However there are a significant number of players that enjoy small sized engagements, in this area ECM is ultimately too strong. Once you are jammed by something you are officially screwed for 20 solid seconds, you are unable to do anything, you cannot assign drones, you cannot blind fire etc. I would like to see it changed again, people enjoy saying fit ECCM, but a solo pilot and small gang combat pilot, it wont make a difference as the jammer has normally 6-8 jamming modules, and it will jam you. I just wish there was a nice balance.
Dr Fighter	Posted - 2010.03.02 12:02:00 - [98] Remeber that in small engaugements ecm gets a sneak bonus due to multiple tries, unlike dmaps with just stack. half the chance to jam a target that already has a failed jammer on it, and half the half on the next failed jammer etc. this would make fitting eccm more worth while, makes surviving the first jam the most important, and since hes already taken a full hit on the first roll of the dice the second roll is automaticly reduced.
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2010.03.02 12:06:00 - [99] 1: Change ECCM modules to give a numerical boost rather than a percentile one. If the boost were in the region of +20 to sensor strength, this would mean that a single mod was as effective as before when on a battleship, but significantly better than before when on a frigate. 2: This would also allow a return to ships being able to boost their non-racial sensors - ie a Minmatar ship could fit a radar ECCM and so have both radar and ladar sensors. In such a case the jamming ship would then have to overcome both sensors to jam the ship. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
kessah M. Corp Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2010.03.02 12:07:00 - [100] Originally by: Dr Fighter Remeber that in small engaugements ecm gets a sneak bonus due to multiple tries, unlike dmaps with just stack. half the chance to jam a target that already has a failed jammer on it, and half the half on the next failed jammer etc. this would make fitting eccm more worth while, makes surviving the first jam the most important, and since hes already taken a full hit on the first roll of the dice the second roll is automaticly reduced. Nice idea.
kyrv	Posted - 2010.03.02 12:23:00 - [101] The cloaking technology mastered to disallow supreme surprised attacks with the re sensor calibration time, ecm modules require this and extra power so they can single out targets of nuisanse like goon superiors
TraininVain	Posted - 2010.03.02 12:24:00 - [102] Originally by: kessah I actually agree, now to some people they see only from one solitary perspective on this and that is from fleet warfare. Large numbers, so ECM to them seem justifiably fine. However there are a significant number of players that enjoy small sized engagements, in this area ECM is ultimately too strong. Once you are jammed by something you are officially screwed for 20 solid seconds, you are unable to do anything, you cannot assign drones, you cannot blind fire etc. I would like to see it changed again, people enjoy saying fit ECCM, but a solo pilot and small gang combat pilot, it wont make a difference as the jammer has normally 6-8 jamming modules, and it will jam you. I just wish there was a nice balance. Yeah. Any e-war gets way less effective in a big fleet because it's often badly coordinated. In a small gang however that is not so much of an issue. Mmm. I think the range nerf was good because we now kill falcons and rooks rather than them just being "LOL" and warping off because they're 100km + out. ECM as it now stands it's hard to say. I don't really like it because it removes any kind of "fight" from the fight. Things that strike me about it: It's really binary. Once you're jammed you cannot use any module that needs a lock. The other day I put an arbie TD on a cynabal with an optimal script and he burned in close so I had to switch scripts and start orbiting him. He still had the use of his neut and drones too. It works on everything. A missile boat can chase my Curse off. If I were in a Rook, not so much. There's no obvious way to counter it on a single-ship or small gang basis. ECCM works up to a point but vs. a full rack it's really only increasing the number of jammers out of a full rack of double bonused ECM that will be required to jam you so you're basically just helping out the rest of the gang. It's not stack nerfed. Past a certain point an extra web or TD or RSD isn't doing that much. Caldari recons only come with one kind of E-war so generally you can focus almost entirely on fitting for that. I suppose people do now fit the rook for a bit of missile DPS but mostly they're very focused. I don't know which one of those things is The Thing with ECM but I do know I'm not a big fan.
Dr Fighter	Posted - 2010.03.02 12:43:00 - [103] Originally by: TraininVain Originally by: kessah I actually agree, now to some people they see only from one solitary perspective on this and that is from fleet warfare. Large numbers, so ECM to them seem justifiably fine. However there are a significant number of players that enjoy small sized engagements, in this area ECM is ultimately too strong. Once you are jammed by something you are officially screwed for 20 solid seconds, you are unable to do anything, you cannot assign drones, you cannot blind fire etc. I would like to see it changed again, people enjoy saying fit ECCM, but a solo pilot and small gang combat pilot, it wont make a difference as the jammer has normally 6-8 jamming modules, and it will jam you. I just wish there was a nice balance. Yeah. Any e-war gets way less effective in a big fleet because it's often badly coordinated. In a small gang however that is not so much of an issue. Mmm. I think the range nerf was good because we now kill falcons and rooks rather than them just being "LOL" and warping off because they're 100km + out. ECM as it now stands it's hard to say. I don't really like it because it removes any kind of "fight" from the fight. Things that strike me about it: It's really binary. Once you're jammed you cannot use any module that needs a lock. The other day I put an arbie TD on a cynabal with an optimal script and he burned in close so I had to switch scripts and start orbiting him. He still had the use of his neut and drones too. It works on everything. A missile boat can chase my Curse off. If I were in a Rook, not so much. There's no obvious way to counter it on a single-ship or small gang basis. ECCM works up to a point but vs. a full rack it's really only increasing the number of jammers out of a full rack of double bonused ECM that will be required to jam you so you're basically just helping out the rest of the gang. It's not stack nerfed. Past a certain point an extra web or TD or RSD isn't doing that much. Caldari recons only come with one kind of E-war so generally you can focus almost entirely on fitting for that. I suppose people do now fit the rook for a bit of missile DPS but mostly they're very focused. I don't know which one of those things is The Thing with ECM but I do know I'm not a big fan. Id say EW is slightly more powerful in large fleets, the EW pilots can use their EW on the best available or most tactical targets getting the best effitiancy out of every cycle. Safty Numbers playing the best role in a fleet for protection against ew, unlike a small gang domiated by EW both gangs are still activly killing each other as the lord intended.
Larinioides cornutus	Posted - 2010.03.02 12:51:00 - [104] Edited by: Larinioides cornutus on 02/03/2010 12:52:48 Originally by: kessah I actually agree, now to some people they see only from one solitary perspective on this and that is from fleet warfare. Large numbers, so ECM to them seem justifiably fine. Not true. The thing is that ecm is not used as much in fleet fight comparing to small gangs. In gangs of 2-3 ppl if there's one ecm ship, the ratio is 33-50% being ecm ships. In RRBS fleets of say, 50 ppl, you dont often see scorps matching that kind of ratio (15-25). If somehow the scorp ratio in a fleet increase significantly, you'd probably find them changing their opinion quickly. Heck, ppl already b*tch when the POS jam them more then two times in a row.
JZIM Caldari Einherjar Rising Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2010.03.02 12:53:00 - [105] 1) Remove Multispecs 2) Reduce off-racial jammer strength to 0 3) Increase racial jammer strength by 20% Ecm boats keep their utility in larger engagements but (somewhat) lose the ability to lolpermajam solo/small gang targets.
The Tzar T-Wrecks	Posted - 2010.03.02 12:53:00 - [106] Painters get more effective the larger the fleet is, just saying... Fundamentally though people will still whinge about ECM because it completely shuts down 'active combat' for the defender. Perhaps a change like a serious damage reduction i.e. it disrupts your targeting so much that you can still lock the other ship but the sensors have no idea where that target actually is. Missiles and turrets would hit for next to no damage, those weapons with better hitting potential (read tracking and explosion/velocity factor) would fair better than those with low tracking etc. I think the main issue people have is the 'I can't do anything' (which you can, I've seen plenty of falcons get nailed by domi's/ishtars) if people didn't lose their lock they would feel less incapacitated and it would not have as different an effect on larger ships (read the time it takes to re-acquire lock). If these changes were to take place though, also change the ECM system so that you don't need lowslots and rigs to make it a plausible system. Allow the falcon/rook to behave like the other recons and fit damage/tank/speed mods. Personally I think that the other EWAR systems should be race based if ECM is. Each ship has their own propulsion system, why is there a one module fits all for this? Please resize your signature to the maximum allowed of 400 x 120 pixels.StevieSG
TraininVain	Posted - 2010.03.02 12:56:00 - [107] Originally by: Dr Fighter Id say EW is slightly more powerful in large fleets, the EW pilots can use their EW on the best available or most tactical targets getting the best effitiancy out of every cycle. Safty Numbers playing the best role in a fleet for protection against ew, unlike a small gang domiated by EW both gangs are still activly killing each other as the lord intended. It rarely works that efficiently from what I've seen. I've been in a handful of fleets where the ECM boats have been added into a channel and come up with a coordinated jamming plan. Those work pretty well because jams are well spread out and the crowd control scales up. More often than not though it's just everyone piling on and jamming the primary. What then happens is that the ECM isn't jamming the ships that kill it or can't stay on field for that long without being chased off.
kessah M. Corp Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2010.03.02 13:12:00 - [108] Originally by: Larinioides cornutus Originally by: kessah I actually agree, now to some people they see only from one solitary perspective on this and that is from fleet warfare. Large numbers, so ECM to them seem justifiably fine. Not true. The thing is that ecm is not used as much in fleet fight comparing to small gangs. In gangs of 2-3 ppl if there's one ecm ship, the ratio os 33-50%. In RRBS fleets of say, 50 ppl, you dont often see scorps reaching that kind of ratio. If somehow the scorp ratio in a fleet increase significantly, you'd probably find them changing their opinion quickly. Heck, ppl ***** when the POS jam them more then two times in a row. Im not saying its balanced in large fleets, but ECM is weaker imho in large fleet as they are normally knocked out first by the rest of the unjammed fleet. So to the people that consider ECM fine, I assume that this is why they consider ECM as 'fine as it is' as it has some use, but can be countered. I also think that 20s duration is too long. Dampeners, painters, tracking disruptor's when in there optimal range work 100% of the time and specific to 1 target, while ECM is chance based and can effect a multitude of targets. Dampeners, painters, tracking disruptor's also effect aspects of a ship that don't totally make it impotent. In conjunction with other ships these forms of EW can work great and are balanced well, ECM I feel need to be brought to a similar level as Dampeners, painters, tracking disruptor's. While still making them effective to use, perhaps even adjust the ships that are specialised into them with higher DPS capabilities to offset the effect or something else. These are just issues I personally have with the this mechanic.
Flitz Farseeker Interstellar Stormfront	Posted - 2010.03.02 13:18:00 - [109] I see two approaches here which I think deserve further investigation. 1. Lockbreaker. You lose your lock on one or more targetted ships but can immediately start to relock. Frigs get jammed easily but can lock faster, while larger ships are harder to jam but take longer to lock. Nice balance here and plenty of options for skills like targeting to have an additional effect. 2. Scrambler You keep your locks, but have a harder time hitting because your sensors are being jammed. Again lots of options for skills to have an effect. In addition, ECM could have an effect on everything from targeting range to scan resolution to number of locked targets. Hell, I'd even go for a combination of the 2. If jam strength is more than sensor strength then you start to lose locks and have an increased chance to miss. If your sensor strength is greater than jam strength then you only suffer from an increased miss chance. Or even keep the chance system for losing locks and add the miss chance effect .
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.03.02 13:52:00 - [110] All eWar (sans TP's) lose power as numbers increase. Jamming, disrupting, neuting etc. one ship out of 100 does sod all .. that is provided the eWar ship even lives long enough to try. Has very little to do with application of eWar being unfocused and other such nonsense and everything to so with lag, numbers, involved ranges and being one-volleyed. If, for arguments sake, a large fleet can field 15-20% eWar then coordination will be required, goes without saying, same as the damage boats have primaries called. Extremely effective when done correctly (Caldari Militia dabbled with it last year I think) but requires a smooth server and experience on the part of coordinator. It is not a simple thing when you think about it. * Reducing cycles hurts more than it helps due to lock-times and risks making ECM true 'iWin' buttons. * Reducing number of available locks risks creating unbreakable RR-Blob scenarios. * Tweaking sensor strengths invariably ends up shafting one ship size or another. * No amount of polishing will improve the extreme annoyance that a chance based thumb-twiddling mechanic causes. Looking at all of that is what makes me want to find a completely different approach to ECM .. I have quite simply failed to find any tweak that solves the riddle.
Mr Australia	Posted - 2010.03.02 14:42:00 - [111] The sad part about this thread is it will probably get ecm nerfed before rockets get fixed.
Dr Fighter	Posted - 2010.03.02 14:48:00 - [112] Originally by: Mr Australia The sad part about this thread is it will probably get ecm nerfed before rockets get fixed. rockets dont suck the fun out of smaller gang pvp. They just suck for the people trained and willing to use rocket based ships, smaller demographic so, BACK OF THE LINE!
Gavin Darklighter THE FINAL STAND	Posted - 2010.03.02 14:49:00 - [113] Edited by: Gavin Darklighter on 02/03/2010 14:50:35 My solution: 1. Restore ECM to its previous extreme 250km range 2. Change ECM mechanics so that when jammed you can still lock and fire upon anyone who has shot at you in the last 30 seconds. This would make it so that ECM is worthless for ganking a solo pilot, and in a fleet fight with good teamwork you can make sure the DPS ships don't aggress the people you are jamming and so the jammed enemies will only be able to fire upon the ECM ships which will be at snipe range. In a 10v10 type of fight a falcon would still be able to keep 2-3 people jammed until the rest of the enemy fleet is destroyed. signature picture exceeds the size limit.~WeatherMan
Mr Management	Posted - 2010.03.02 15:21:00 - [114] ECM is a shadow of its former glory .... Move on a whine about something else
Meeko Atari	Posted - 2010.03.02 16:12:00 - [115] Edited by: Meeko Atari on 02/03/2010 16:13:27 You guys do realize that Sensor Damps are a perfect counter to ECM right? and are usually fitter to ships with the highest sensor strength ( Lach, arazu ) they work every time you activate them and have been over nerfed. Why not ask for a buff instead, I know the Gallente ships need it, and also a buff to Web strength wouldn't hurt the Minmatar either I know a few Curse pilots that would like a better Vamp as well I say we fix the other recons edit grammar
Dr Fighter	Posted - 2010.03.02 16:22:00 - [116] Originally by: Meeko Atari Edited by: Meeko Atari on 02/03/2010 16:13:27 You guys do realize that Sensor Damps are a perfect counter to ECM right? and are usually fitter to ships with the highest sensor strength ( Lach, arazu ) they work every time you activate them and have been over nerfed. Why not ask for a buff instead, I know the Gallente ships need it, and also a buff to Web strength wouldn't hurt the Minmatar either I know a few Curse pilots that would like a better Vamp as well I say we fix the other recons edit grammar i campained (whined) for a damp buff already, damps stacking on eachother and with sensor boosters, poor bonuses, weaksauce rigs etc. however even perfect damps with great strength would allow a target to defence himself in other ways etc ECMs primary and only effect is way too strong and its not fun for anyone, the number of people who use a falcon in a small gang and appologise in local after with "sorry i hate ecm too, but dont blame the player, blame the game"
Meeko Atari	Posted - 2010.03.02 16:26:00 - [117] Originally by: Dr Fighter Originally by: Meeko Atari Edited by: Meeko Atari on 02/03/2010 16:13:27 You guys do realize that Sensor Damps are a perfect counter to ECM right? and are usually fitter to ships with the highest sensor strength ( Lach, arazu ) they work every time you activate them and have been over nerfed. Why not ask for a buff instead, I know the Gallente ships need it, and also a buff to Web strength wouldn't hurt the Minmatar either I know a few Curse pilots that would like a better Vamp as well I say we fix the other recons edit grammar i campained (whined) for a damp buff already, damps stacking on eachother and with sensor boosters, poor bonuses, weaksauce rigs etc. however even perfect damps with great strength would allow a target to defence himself in other ways etc ECMs primary and only effect is way too strong and its not fun for anyone, the number of people who use a falcon in a small gang and appologise in local after with "sorry i hate ecm too, but dont blame the player, blame the game" That's what i'm saying... Lets fix the other E-war
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2010.03.02 16:36:00 - [118] Originally by: Dr Fighter however even perfect damps with great strength would allow a target to defence himself in other ways etc Its same for ecm - target can defend himself with drones, can move, but cant touch attacker /cant lock him/. Take arazu with long point and 3 damps and you can hold most ships without problems... Rook with 3x ecm can permajam most targets easy - if you have racial jammers, if you dont it isnt so hot... Btw i think this thread is big waste of whining potential in the time when dram is still flying out there unnerfed.
Silver Tree	Posted - 2010.03.02 16:46:00 - [119] Good stop crying like little babies, all the EW is balanced right now and **** it up again cuz you got jamed once god get a life
Daratori	Posted - 2010.03.02 17:27:00 - [120] I show up to a battle with a sensor booster, but wait! There's no sensor dampening against me, atleast i get to lock faster and longer \o/ I show up with a tracking computer but there's no tracking disruption against me. Atleast i can shoot longer and track better \o/ I show up with an eccm but there's no ecm against me. Atleast i completly wasted a slot on my ship...
Zilberfrid	Posted - 2010.03.02 17:50:00 - [121] You're forgetting a cap booster
moohoo	Posted - 2010.03.02 17:59:00 - [122] Originally by: Zilberfrid You're forgetting a cap booster yep, sorry :(
Zetakya	Posted - 2010.03.02 18:18:00 - [123] Edited by: Zetakya on 02/03/2010 18:21:39 Fundamentally, the problem people have with it is not its effectiveness, but the manner in which it is effective. Being essentially unable to fight (blah blah blah FOF) is not a very fun game mechanic. It is also notable that ECM is the only EWar that is effective (almost) no matter who it is aimed at - unlike all the other forms of EWar, which have their choice targets, but are almost 100% ineffective against equally large and popular types of targets. It also tends to get spammed a lot more, especially in small unit encounters, because ECM is better than needing to tank damage, and because Caldari ships have oodles of mid slots. There's also no stacking penalty associated with ECM in the same way as there is for other forms of EWar. This last is (IMO) the real breaker. It is possible that a system of diminishing returns for using multiple ECM modules simultaneously would work? You can jam one target very well, or you can jam two pretty well, or you can jam three fairly well... A similar system could work for dealing with the gameplay issues. If being jammed for one cycle led to your probability of being Jammed going down on the next cycle (as your sensors compensate for the interference), then ECM piloting would be a matter of skillful timing to ensure the jam was in place at the critical moment, and frustrating perma-jam moments would be reduced. But hey, what do I know? I pilot an ECM bird, it can be left as it stands for my money.
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2010.03.02 19:01:00 - [124] Originally by: Zetakya A similar system could work for dealing with the gameplay issues. If being jammed for one cycle led to your probability of being Jammed going down on the next cycle (as your sensors compensate for the interference), then ECM piloting would be a matter of skillful timing to ensure the jam was in place at the critical moment, and frustrating perma-jam moments would be reduced. The same should apply to tracking disruption or energy destabilization really, it would prevent the frustration of never being able to use your turrets, or being capped out permanently. Those should also be chance based, so they dont always work, that makes for boring gameplay.
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2010.03.02 19:04:00 - [125] Originally by: Omara Otawan ... Yes, so there will be no other possibility to ged rid of dualprop nos tacklers than ecm drones.
Mag's the united Negative Ten.	Posted - 2010.03.02 19:18:00 - [126] Man you keep coming up with the good ideas, much like this one. It's good to know you're so clued up, on game mechanics.
Denuo Secus	Posted - 2010.03.02 19:31:00 - [127] Removing ECM (or any ewar) would just lead to more "Tank + Gank" which leads to blobbing. Fleet A does twice the damage of fleet B? Solution: just bring more ships...ECM and other ewar can break this boring cycle. Not to speak it's the best (if not only) chance for smaller fleets to win or survive when outnumbered. There must be any mechanic which allows the smaller one to beat the bigger one imo. Everything else is frustrating and boring. Though I agree ECM should be altered a bit. Make it less chance based. Tactics and not fortuity should decide over victory. Then ECCM sould have a second use. I also like the "reduce jam cycle not jam chance" idea. Much more relieable for both sides. And @"ECCM costs me one valuable slot" or "No frig has slots for ECCM": you just need one ship in your gang to get rid of ECM. Unfair? No, your opponent sacrificed one valuable ship just for ECM - it cannot do anything more really. Your ECCM boat should be nice for other duties as well. - Save the missiles from the glowing blob :S R ----------> * A --------> * V --------> * E -------> * N ---------> *
Angelicus Doctor	Posted - 2010.03.02 19:36:00 - [128] Is this the whine thread, or should I start a new thread for the time I lost a ship because several people used sensor dampeners on me and I was able to target everyone out to 4km.
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2010.03.02 19:42:00 - [129] Originally by: Lugalzagezi666 Originally by: Omara Otawan ... Yes, so there will be no other possibility to ged rid of dualprop nos tacklers than ecm drones. You clearly caught the sarcasm in my post well
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2010.03.02 19:47:00 - [130] Originally by: Omara Otawan Originally by: Lugalzagezi666 Originally by: Omara Otawan ... Yes, so there will be no other possibility to ged rid of dualprop nos tacklers than ecm drones. You clearly caught the sarcasm in my post well
catheleen	Posted - 2010.03.02 20:40:00 - [131] Edited by: catheleen on 02/03/2010 20:43:01 It may be an idea to design the ECM system to be effective proportionally to the use of other slots. If you were to use enhancement modules in the same way, proportionally as drones have range compliments that fit in high and mid slots, this would/could be useful as a balancing mechanism. So use slot utilisation numbers from Hi-Lo to increase the strength but compromise other ship integrity aspects, including range and locking speed? Edit: Oh! and so disappointed in Sokratesz contribution
Kessiaan Minmatar Vagrants Inc	Posted - 2010.03.02 22:20:00 - [132] Originally by: Denuo Secus Removing ECM (or any ewar) would just lead to more "Tank + Gank" which leads to blobbing. Fleet A does twice the damage of fleet B? Solution: just bring more ships...ECM and other ewar can break this boring cycle. Not to speak it's the best (if not only) chance for smaller fleets to win or survive when outnumbered. There must be any mechanic which allows the smaller one to beat the bigger one imo. Everything else is frustrating and boring. Though I agree ECM should be altered a bit. Make it less chance based. Tactics and not fortuity should decide over victory. Then ECCM sould have a second use. I also like the "reduce jam cycle not jam chance" idea. Much more relieable for both sides. And @"ECCM costs me one valuable slot" or "No frig has slots for ECCM": you just need one ship in your gang to get rid of ECM. Unfair? No, your opponent sacrificed one valuable ship just for ECM - it cannot do anything more really. Your ECCM boat should be nice for other duties as well. This is the crux of the problem with ECM. In fleets it's fine for reasons that have been discussed to death a hundred times already. ECM balance issues really only affect very small gangs (less than 5), particularly if both fleets are sub-BS.
RuleoftheBone Minmatar The Littlest Hobos Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2010.03.03 00:10:00 - [133] Is the OP still the original owner of DHB W? No friggin way
Yakov Draken Minmatar Tides Of War	Posted - 2010.03.03 00:26:00 - [134] ECM remains killjoy. It is however counterable - it is just the consequence is a big change in gang setups and a limiting of game choices. An armor tanking RR gang is obviously very vulnerable to ECM so fit a ECCM on every ship and be ready to overheat it, two for logi-domis, and make sure you have sentry drones to kill the Falcons with. It works but it does reduce options.
Joe Censored Unknown-Entity Black Star Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.03 00:28:00 - [135] Edited by: Joe Censored on 03/03/2010 00:28:50 I lost a ship once because a lot of lasers hit me all at once. There should be a stacking penalty for lasers cause flying around in my pod really takes the fun out of the game. Please fix lasers so I don't have to come up with any counter on my own for them, or do any thinking in this game other than target primary / press F1 (This is what all you whiners sound like)
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.03.03 07:27:00 - [136] Originally by: Yakov Draken ECM remains killjoy. It is however counterable.... Impressive, you managed to not read the thread as a whole but also a post made a few hours prior to yours Originally by: Kessiaan This is the crux of the problem with ECM. In fleets it's fine for reasons that have been discussed to death a hundred times already. ECM balance issues really only affect very small gangs (less than 5), particularly if both fleets are sub-BS. Exactly. It goes from being an annoyance to game-breaking. I would even go so far as to double the number so that small gangs <10, particularly if sub-BS. That fact is the Gordian knot, solve it (without breaking the other end of scale) and the rest is easy. Originally by: RuleoftheBone Is the OP still the original owner of DHB W? No friggin way Does it matter if the question/concern posed is valid? If it does matter then the problem is with you and not him nor his question .. elitism is an ugly thing, more so in discussion fora.
Insa Rexion Minmatar Fumar Puede Matar	Posted - 2010.03.03 07:44:00 - [137] Originally by: Theac Osiris Edited by: Theac Osiris on 01/03/2010 00:48:01 Would you like your whine broiled or grilled? #1) ECM does not "completely take a ship out of the fight". FoF missiles and drones still work, the ship can still maneuver, and most importantly, it's still alive. #2) No ship can completely lock down up to 8 ships. The only ship that has that many bonused ECM slots is the Scorpion, and you'd have to be crazy not to fit at least an MWD. Furthermore, it's chance based, so unless you're facing a swarm of frigates (against whom the effect of ECM is diminished since you're wasting your mods on weak, cheap ships), you are not going to be able to completely lock down every target. #3) Most ECM ships are paper-thin. If a DPS ship gets on top of them, they're generally toast. #4) ECM ships, surprisingly enough, can be ECMed, or sensor damped so hard they have to venture dangerously close into the enemy. If you're really having trouble with them, a flight of ECM drones can easily break their cycle and give you a chance to blow them to shreds. #5) ECM ships are to be pre-emptively considered "primary" #6) ECM will generally cause panic and disarray in an uncoordinated, unprepared fleet, but most good FCs will be able to neutralize it as a threat. A certain amount of irony contained in this post since ECM is banned from red vs blue for most of the reasons stated in the OP As for the OP, I kinda agree it's still OP but perhaps not to the level he feels it is. For those who would argue that it's already been nerfed I would ask this... what is the first thing all FCs ask for after DPS (ECM), what ships are most likely to be primaried in almost any engagement ? (ECM) What is the most common form of ewar seen in Eve combat today ? (ECM, by quite a margin) In other words, the "balancing" has done little to change the reliance upon ECM as a powerful combat tactic simply because it is still so very very good. When we see target painting used as much as ECM we will know balance has been achieved, but really I'm not holding my breath. That said, it's not the end of the world, there are counters and one can ue it oneself, it's just the prevalence of it as a tactic I'd like to see change for reasons of variety more than anything -------------------------------------------- well mannered ****ole
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2010.03.03 07:45:00 - [138] Edited by: Naomi Knight on 03/03/2010 07:54:48 Edited by: Naomi Knight on 03/03/2010 07:53:55 Edited by: Naomi Knight on 03/03/2010 07:52:29 Originally by: Joe Censored Edited by: Joe Censored on 03/03/2010 00:28:50 I lost a ship once because a lot of lasers hit me all at once. There should be a stacking penalty for lasers cause flying around in my pod really takes the fun out of the game. Please fix lasers so I don't have to come up with any counter on my own for them, or do any thinking in this game other than target primary / press F1 (This is what all you whiners sound like) Yeah Fix lasers first ^^ Originally by: Insa Rexion A certain amount of irony contained in this post since ECM is banned from red vs blue for most of the reasons stated in the OP Laughing As for the OP, I kinda agree it's still OP but perhaps not to the level he feels it is. For those who would argue that it's already been nerfed I would ask this... what is the first thing all FCs ask for after DPS (ECM), what ships are most likely to be primaried in almost any engagement ? (ECM) What is the most common form of ewar seen in Eve combat today ? (ECM, by quite a margin) In other words, the "balancing" has done little to change the reliance upon ECM as a powerful combat tactic simply because it is still so very very good. When we see target painting used as much as ECM we will know balance has been achieved, but really I'm not holding my breath. That said, it's not the end of the world, there are counters and one can ue it oneself, it's just the prevalence of it as a tactic I'd like to see change for reasons of variety more than anything Who cares about some stupid blue vs reds thingy? So because in alli tournaments players cant warp out should we nerf warping? what is the first thing all FCs ask for after DPS (TACKLER/LOGI) what ships are most likely to be primaried in almost any engagement ? (TACKLERS/LOGIS/expensive stuff ) What is the most common form of ewar seen in Eve combat today ? (Disruptors/Scramblers by quite a margin oh and lasers :P) In other words, the "balancing" has done little to change the stupidity of ECM victims simply because they are that stupid and lazy. When we see target painting used as much as ECM we will know we are fighting against noobz or ECM is just completly useless, but really I'm not holding my breath. That said, it's not the end of the world, there are counters and one can ue it oneself, it's just the prevalence of it as a tactic called WHINING it usually works if we blob the forums.
Thirzarr	Posted - 2010.03.03 08:53:00 - [139] There is basically only one problem with ECM: Small gang pvp. If one side has ECM and one side doesnt, the outcome is predefined. If the "has-none" side gets lucky, they can warp. shrugs So it's a little like bringing guns/launchers, I guess.
Dibsi Dei Genos Occidere Sev3rance	Posted - 2010.03.03 09:23:00 - [140] On small engagements ecm is indeed overpowered.
Dr Fighter	Posted - 2010.03.03 09:38:00 - [141] Edited by: Dr Fighter on 03/03/2010 09:38:44 ECM was banned from several tournys in the past too, simply because its very dull to watch for everyone, same reason its banned from RvB its pre defined dull broken crap. If ccp makes a decision to leave ecm out, that they must agree that it doesnt make good viewing .... how much less fun is it actually being the guy who cant do anything dieing slowly and painfully.
Tarhim Caldari	Posted - 2010.03.03 10:59:00 - [142] Originally by: Dr Fighter how much less fun is it actually being the guy who cant do anything dieing slowly and painfully. Ban scrams and webs now!
Dr Fighter	Posted - 2010.03.03 11:03:00 - [143] Originally by: Tarhim Originally by: Dr Fighter how much less fun is it actually being the guy who cant do anything dieing slowly and painfully. Ban scrams and webs now! i mean he cant do anything, being webbed and scrammed doesnt stop you from doing the same back and blowing them to hell with all available weapon systems.
Tarhim Caldari	Posted - 2010.03.03 11:51:00 - [144] Originally by: Dr Fighter i mean he cant do anything, being webbed and scrammed doesnt stop you from doing the same back and blowing them to hell with all available weapon systems. Unless someone else neuts you, shoots you and wtfpwns you in general. Jamming doesn't really incapacites you totally, you can fly out of range or warp out.
Zetakya	Posted - 2010.03.03 12:04:00 - [145] Jamming though is very much an all-or-nothing proposition. Hence why it needs different balancing mechanics compared to the much more variable scale of effectiveness for everything else.
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.03.03 12:24:00 - [146] Originally by: Tarhim Unless someone else neuts you, shoots you and wtfpwns you in general. Jamming doesn't really incapacites you totally, you can fly out of range or warp out. Yea, because jamming ships are the ultimate solo-ships and are never used with 1+ other ships Do you have any idea how long it takes to "fly out of range" of a jammer? Even if you do get out of range, you will automatically be out of range of anything and everyone else making it a pretty pointless move to begin with. Originally by: Zetakya Jamming though is very much an all-or-nothing proposition. Hence why it needs different balancing mechanics compared to the much more variable scale of effectiveness for everything else. Yes, it is binary in nature, but where is it written that has to be case? Why shouldn't it be more similar to other forms of eWar in application/power? We are (or I am anyway) trying to figure out an alternative where ECM isn't OP as sizes go down and a different effect for the target of the ECM (to get rid of the thumb-twiddle crap). Ships meant for ECM can always be tweaked to accommodate any "loss of power" that a given module/mechanic change imposes so not a big obstacle.
Tarhim Caldari	Posted - 2010.03.03 13:07:00 - [147] Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Yea, because jamming ships are the ultimate solo-ships and are never used with 1+ other ships Well, then you can get pwned by gang. I'm absolutely sure that never happens without ECM :) Quote: Do you have any idea how long it takes to "fly out of range" of a jammer? Roughly. If you are not webbed, it would be faster than flying out of disruptor range. I think. Quote: Even if you do get out of range, you will automatically be out of range of anything and everyone else making it a pretty pointless move to begin with. You are, however, alive. Always a plus. :) Quote: We are (or I am anyway) trying to figure out an alternative where ECM isn't OP as sizes go down and a different effect for the target of the ECM (to get rid of the thumb-twiddle crap). Will it be better if it worked somehow like outlined in those thread already? Breaks locking (but you can re-acquire immediately) and at the same renders your targeting/tracking ability nearly useless (percentage based penalties, for example)? End result being that it works pretty much the same but no thumb-twiddling, just shooting without effect.
Zetakya	Posted - 2010.03.03 13:14:00 - [148] Edited by: Zetakya on 03/03/2010 13:15:21 Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Originally by: Zetakya Jamming though is very much an all-or-nothing proposition. Hence why it needs different balancing mechanics compared to the much more variable scale of effectiveness for everything else. Yes, it is binary in nature, but where is it written that has to be case? Why shouldn't it be more similar to other forms of eWar in application/power? We are (or I am anyway) trying to figure out an alternative where ECM isn't OP as sizes go down and a different effect for the target of the ECM (to get rid of the thumb-twiddle crap). Ships meant for ECM can always be tweaked to accommodate any "loss of power" that a given module/mechanic change imposes so not a big obstacle. I take your point Hirana, but I was mainly addressing my post in reference to responses to my own earlier post. Sorry if that wasn't clear. If you want to completely redo the mechanic, then that's a different argument. In that case the two options that spring to mind are either slowing down, or randomly skipping the activation cycles of Hi- and offensive Mid-Slot modules.
Baneken Gallente Aseveljet	Posted - 2010.03.03 13:21:00 - [149] I was thinking of all ECM to work with the same principle as burst ECM's that is a one single burst -> wait -> wait -> burst and not a continuous jamming cycle like we have now. Increased cool down between bursts could be same as in burst ECM's that we have now.
Oriss Amarr	Posted - 2010.03.03 14:13:00 - [150] Originally by: Kirzath Edited by: Kirzath on 02/03/2010 00:43:04 I'll ask again, how am I supposed to counter this? Lord almighty you're an idiot. A pilot that managed to reasearch what you were flying, go fit racial jammers on the ship, and then catches you solo after you didn't detect his initial intel gathering and jams you and solo's you deserves the kill. The chance of a frigate running around with a full rack of racial jammers trying to pick on a single race of ships is unrealistic. If you fall victim to this, there were other opportunities to counter it before the fight even started. Also, if you're so scared of frigates, find friends with interceptors. Troll harder with your magical EFT.
Jovialmadness	Posted - 2010.03.03 14:21:00 - [151] Edited by: Jovialmadness on 03/03/2010 14:21:49 Wildcat I'm gonna go out on a limb and laugh a bit here. I can only assume since you can't jam 150+ anymore with your alt and that you have to put him closer to the fight it's wearing you down abit. That or you have simply overused it's effectiveness and now feel it's time to alter it since it's so last year. That or you are getting butt hurt by them now trying to solo 30 man gangs. Bro your vids show plenty of proof you can handle 1-2 falcons on the field some of the time. Stop trying to murder fleets 20x your size with shuttle and this anguish will cease. I'm not saying you must conform to standard blob on blob pvp cause god knows I love solo pvp as well. Just be prepared for this crap blobbing cause that is the way it is. A single or even double eccm probably shouldn't make you invulnerable to 3+ falcons. I can only guess lastly that is what happened in all honesty. P.s. Keep cranking out the vids. P.s.s. I would have preferred that ccp originally made eccm stronger vs. ECM before the range decrease. I hate falcons so let me say that beforehand. Reducing their range AND reducing their effectiveness will be a pretty bad ner***e.
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.03.03 14:26:00 - [152] Originally by: Tarhim Will it be better if it worked somehow like outlined in those thread already? Breaks locking (but you can re-acquire immediately) and at the same renders your targeting/tracking ability nearly useless (percentage based penalties, for example)? End result being that it works pretty much the same but no thumb-twiddling, just shooting without effect. Would need to have a secondary effect other than just breaking locks, since that would flip the whole thing and make frigates with fast locks impossible to shake. Adding on effects currently tied to damps/TDs would indeed work, but then what to do with those unfortunate modules and ships that are now upstaged? Originally by: Zetakya If you want to completely redo the mechanic, then that's a different argument. In that case the two options that spring to mind are either slowing down, or randomly skipping the activation cycles of Hi- and offensive Mid-Slot modules. Something radical along those lines would be needed to avoid the scaling and other issues, yes. Another idea: Key-/mouse-clicks become jumbled for the duration, so that activating any module ends up actually activating/deactivating an entirely different one (click gun and suitcase cycles off, or inject and gun goes off .. probably wont work due to groupings and generally low number of active mods used these days, but 'meh'. It is not an easy riddle this one
Oriss Amarr	Posted - 2010.03.03 14:35:00 - [153] To all you that want an ECM nerf, just to quit whining: Cut duration and activation by half. This makes it so that if you have an 75% chance to jam, you don't statistically miss a lock for every 60 seconds a target stays jammed, but it is reduced to every 30 seconds. Statistically you stand a better chance of surviving if the target doesn't completely overwhelm your sensor strength. The issue with you whiners is you aren't looking at the statistics of a jam over time. You're seeing magical permalocks that aren't REALLY permalocks, it's just that statistically they should make three or four in a row, which ends up in you being jammed for a long, long time and dying before they lose a cycle. However, ECM cycles can't be too short, or that one cycle they miss becomes useless, because you have 5 seconds to do something. Also, ECM boats don't do jack besides ECM. Show me an ECM boat that can put out DPS similar to a DPS ship of the same class? They are gang ships. If a gang properly fits up with said ECM boats, THEY ARE PLAYING TO THE STRENGTHS OF THE MODULES. You guys are comparing it to fitting damps and having your entire gang use blasters. With Ewar, you have to play to the strengths of the ewar you're using. Sorry you lost your ships, please stop whining, ECM is fine and necessary as it is or RR will be the next whine thread. L2 counter, all that good stuff. Read previous posts on how to counter ECM in general, and if you say "WELL THEIR MATES HAVE ME webbed/scrammed/etc." then chances are that if their fleet didn't have ECM and just DPS, they would have alpha'd you anyways. inb4 u mad, because I mad. ECM whine makes me rage.
Dr Fighter	Posted - 2010.03.03 14:41:00 - [154] The ecm effect can be compared to 4 modules of any other EW in terms of effect, one dmap wont do much unless the target is a good distance away but 4 will basicly lock them down - equivilant to a single ecm doing its thing. so. easy tweak for a huge difference, one active ecm module on any single target at a time. One ship, one chance to jam, makes eccm live more upto its name too. Currently eccm is sort of undone by the multiply effect more than one ecm module, atm you have double your sensor strength wiht eccm but the jammer has X ecm modules ready to activate if the first fails.
Jobby Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2010.03.03 14:43:00 - [155] Originally by: Kapse Locke Originally by: Atreus Tac i see whine Fixed. Fixed.
Zetakya	Posted - 2010.03.03 14:45:00 - [156] Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Originally by: Zetakya If you want to completely redo the mechanic, then that's a different argument. In that case the two options that spring to mind are either slowing down, or randomly skipping the activation cycles of Hi- and offensive Mid-Slot modules. Something radical along those lines would be needed to avoid the scaling and other issues, yes. Another idea: Key-/mouse-clicks become jumbled for the duration, so that activating any module ends up actually activating/deactivating an entirely different one (click gun and suitcase cycles off, or inject and gun goes off .. probably wont work due to groupings and generally low number of active mods used these days, but 'meh'. It is not an easy riddle this one I'm not a fan of any mechanic that relies on misdirection, however formed, because it would be too easily bypassed into pointlessness. As I say, I would prefer a mechanism that favoured good timing, awareness on the part of the ECM pilot, and penalties for continual running to encourage ECM to be used as a "get this off me now" rather than a "haha you're useless for the whole fight" If an ECM pilot had a fairly good chance at being able to disrupt the operation of a tackler holding points on a BS for a short duration only, then it would become a matter of communication, timing and skillful judgement to do so at the appropriate moment to get the under-fire ship free.
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2010.03.03 15:56:00 - [157] Originally by: Dr Fighter The ecm effect can be compared to 4 modules of any other EW in terms of effect Lies... When im 23k from target in my arbi, it takes 1 td to avoid almost all dps from scorch L... Arazu can point from 48k - guess how much damps it take to get bc under 40k targeting range? Originally by: Dr Fighter but 4 will basicly lock them down - equivilant to a single ecm doing its thing Ecm is chance based.
Dr Fighter	Posted - 2010.03.03 16:17:00 - [158] Originally by: Lugalzagezi666 Originally by: Dr Fighter The ecm effect can be compared to 4 modules of any other EW in terms of effect Lies... When im 23k from target in my arbi, it takes 1 td to avoid almost all dps from scorch L... Arazu can point from 48k - guess how much damps it take to get bc under 40k targeting range? Originally by: Dr Fighter but 4 will basicly lock them down - equivilant to a single ecm doing its thing Ecm is chance based. so what, a single light ecm drone gets one lucky hit and the target is fully jammed for 20 seconds. Im talking about the effect of ecm, i know its chance based, but the chances are pretty good on most targets and if it does fail theres another full strength ECM to have a try and the odds that this one works where the last one didnt are better than the first. Im comparing damps to the effect of ecm, 4 damps makes almost any ship unsable to a similar degree. i know that at max range one damp will be 'effective' because the target cant lock the attacker wiht the damp, but it cam lock anything else thats closer - unlike ecm.
Emily Jean Minmatar The Mongols	Posted - 2010.03.03 16:24:00 - [159] more cry baby whine threads... WoW has kids EvE has Cry Babies
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2010.03.03 16:46:00 - [160] Originally by: Dr Fighter so what, a single light ecm drone gets one lucky hit and the target is fully jammed for 20 seconds Or they dont get lucky hit and you die... yes, its random. Originally by: Dr Fighter the chances are pretty good on most targets Define 'pretty good.' You do realize that if you fit wrong racial ecm you will fail 'pretty bad?' Btw its the same with damps or tds - smaller ships - low sensor strenght/low targeting range/low optimal and falloff. - bigger ships - higher sensor strenght/targeting range/optimal and falloff. Originally by: Dr Fighter if it does fail theres another full strength ECM to have a try and the odds that this one works where the last one didnt are better than the first. No, chance is same for 2nd, 3rd etc. ecm. Originally by: Dr Fighter 4 damps makes almost any ship unsable to a similar degree. i know that at max range one damp will be 'effective' because the target cant lock the attacker wiht the damp, but it cam lock anything else thats closer - unlike ecm. So? You are not competent to use advantage of damps /= always works/ and thats why you are complaining about ecm? Why would you use 4 damps on single target when its already out of fight /and tackled/ and only thing you need to do is to keep your gang 40k from it. And you can use other damps to cut targeting range of other ships... anyone talking about focusing fire? Btw damps have other uses too - if you think its easy to jam eccmed logi or recon /you can overheat eccm btw/, you are wrong - damps can do that easily /there goes 3x lst from scimi zooming around or evil falcon uncloaking at 80.../.
DHB WildCat Flash Over. WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.03.03 17:17:00 - [161] My main reason for posting this thread. I cant get any fights anymore at ALL! I take one 1 ship and my falcon alt to a system to fight 10 or more. They run away. So stop using a falcon right! I **ing cant!!!! Because everyone and their moms use them. If I dont bring one; my ship is perma jammed, and if you dont think perma jamming isnt real then you dont ing know this game! So I bring my alt to counter their jammers. Well now that I have a jamming ship gangs outnumbering me refuse to fight me because the falcon or any jamming ship for that matter is so ing powerful that it will tkae out several ships and PERMA JAM all of them! Level 5 skills allow this! So you all that think you know anything about this game and think that ECM is not broken. I hate it! I dont want to ING USE IT! But in a game where everyone has at least 4 in their gangs, you have to bring your own. It is broken! WildCat Oh and Rule of the Bone whatever up yours this is the original you *got.
Vrabac Zawa's Fan Club	Posted - 2010.03.03 17:21:00 - [162] Originally by: DHB WildCat My main reason for posting this thread. I cant get any fights anymore at ALL! I take one 1 ship and my falcon alt to a system to fight 10 or more. They run away. So stop using a falcon right! I **ing cant!!!! Because everyone and their moms use them. If I dont bring one; my ship is perma jammed, and if you dont think perma jamming isnt real then you dont ing know this game! So I bring my alt to counter their jammers. Well now that I have a jamming ship gangs outnumbering me refuse to fight me because the falcon or any jamming ship for that matter is so ing powerful that it will tkae out several ships and PERMA JAM all of them! Level 5 skills allow this! So you all that think you know anything about this game and think that ECM is not broken. I hate it! I dont want to ING USE IT! But in a game where everyone has at least 4 in their gangs, you have to bring your own. It is broken! WildCat Oh and Rule of the Bone whatever up yours this is the original you *got. In essence you are right, however there will always be too many people arguing that jammed ship can still move, bump, tank, rotate view, browse the internet or what not so gl with that. I just fit eccm. It doesn't help all that much ofc, but who cares I can alt tab and watch youtube or I can still have my DC active plus my drones are probably doing something too, it's not like ECM is op, it's fine, adapt or die, you can still bump and tank and... er, be there.
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2010.03.03 17:24:00 - [163] Originally by: DHB WildCat ... So you are expecting ppl to warp right on top of you and get massacred by your 3-10b ship /+ implants/ and complain if they use ecm to compensate their weaker ships...
Vrabac Zawa's Fan Club	Posted - 2010.03.03 17:27:00 - [164] Or people arguing that ECM compensates for expensive fits.
Jovialmadness	Posted - 2010.03.03 17:30:00 - [165] Edited by: Jovialmadness on 03/03/2010 17:33:22 Edited by: Jovialmadness on 03/03/2010 17:31:20 Dammit wildcat do you not watch your own vids? Most people know you enough now to know you are an exceptional case when discussing pvp. You aren't any better than any other decent pvp'r but you outfit your ships heavily and you use very good tactics/exploit soon to be nerfed options(no offense here but it is true). Now saying all that and having placed your fights(as awesome as they are) for the world to see I think you are making a slight misjudgement. Do you not think that people might know who you are and are making assumptions about what kind of evil sh!t you are going to unleash on them instead of falcons being at fault? Just food for thought.
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2010.03.03 17:53:00 - [166] Originally by: Vrabac Or people arguing that ECM compensates for expensive fits. Eh? Should ppl just warp on him 1 by 1 and suicide? Why shouldnt be bs sized ship 'blobbed to hell' when its flying in enemy territory and why shouldnt 'the blob' protect its members with ecm? Especially when pilot is known for flying uberpimp ships... 1 ships takes another from fight - easy, you can tank, you can move, you can jump, i have no problem with this. And believe it or not, most ppl here are not complaining about that. They dont like that 1 ecm ship can lock down more than 1 ship completely /sometimes it can, sometimes not - example : good intel, racial jammers match targets = win or : bad intel, jammers dont match targets = massive fail/. Except wildcat ofc... Hes complaining about ecm while using his own ecm ship - i bet he would use his falcon the second his tank starts failing, even if there were no enemy ecm 10 jumps around.
Angelicus Doctor	Posted - 2010.03.03 18:43:00 - [167] There was this one time. I had a Rook because I heard that ECM pwns everything in eve and there is no counters and it perma locks everything it can target, and 7 racial jammers, but - like - this dude was in a Lachesis. And - the Lachesis locks 4% faster than a Rook, and, the Rook has a bigger sig radius than a Lachesis. So - this dude completely locked my targeting range to under 35km. But because the Rook is awesome, it doesn't have a secondary bonus like the Lachesis, and this dude, then used his secondary bonus and 48km warp disruptors. Then - this guy's friends showed up and blew up my ship because he had two points on me. Will CCP give me a refund because this was not right?
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.03.03 18:58:00 - [168] Originally by: Angelicus Doctor Will CCP give me a refund because this was not right? Doubtful since you were outmanoeuvred. You used a gang/fleet fit when out solo. Same happens to a fleet-sniper that jumps into anything short of a civilian mod fitted noob ship Go close when solo'ing in the Rook .. it has the 2nd highest (non lol-EFT fits) damage potential of all the recons when using HAMs and can use an ECM/Buffer blend as tank.
Angelicus Doctor	Posted - 2010.03.03 19:44:00 - [169] Originally by: Vrabac I just fit eccm. It doesn't help all that much ofc, but who cares I can alt tab and watch youtube or I can still have my DC active plus my drones are probably doing something too, it's not like ECM is op, it's fine, adapt or die, you can still bump and tank and... er, be there. Isn't that what most people do as Caldari dps bounces off their armor?
Terianna Eri Amarr Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn	Posted - 2010.03.03 19:46:00 - [170] Originally by: Oriss Amarr Show me an ECM boat that can put out DPS similar to a DPS ship of the same class? Rook has similar damage to a Cerberus and NONE of the EWAR boats have DPS approaching that of the pure DPS ships. In fact I think the Rook is the highest DPS recon in a standard fit. P.S. Balance issues aside ECM is a terrible mechanic anyway. It's boring and non-interactive. ________________ Originally by: CCP Incognito PS the "time to P*nis" is the shortest time recorded in human history. :)
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2010.03.03 19:55:00 - [171] Originally by: Terianna Eri Rook has similar damage to a Cerberus and NONE of the EWAR boats have DPS approaching that of the pure DPS ships. In fact I think the Rook is the highest DPS recon in a standard fit. Must be a pretty interesting "standard" fit. In a full gank fit (3x BCU, HAMs), the Rook exceeds the dps of the most damaging Recon, the Huginn, in its standard configuration. And the Huginn will still be able to use its ewar to full effect, the Rook wont.
Oriss Amarr	Posted - 2010.03.03 19:57:00 - [172] Now for our segment into the psycological reasons why the whiners whine. Let's instead of talking about Ewar, talk about coitus. There are three ways to prevent unwanted things happening during coitus: 1) Vasectomy- Compare this to a tracking disruptor. You're shooting blanks, but at least you're doing something. 2) Protection- This is the Sensor Damp of the reproductive world. It reduces the overall effect, but again, you feel like you're getting something done. 3) Abstinence- This is the big bad ECM. It accomplishes the same thing as the other two, but it is just "unfun." Whiners whine because they are being forced into digital abstinence and can't get their big guns off.
Angelicus Doctor	Posted - 2010.03.03 19:59:00 - [173] Originally by: DHB WildCat So ** you all that think you know anything about this game and think that ECM is not broken. I hate it! I dont want to **ING USE IT! But in a game where everyone has at least 4 in their gangs, you have to bring your own. It is broken! I know what you mean. It sucks, all these gangs roaming around eve always have to bring some interceptor or some tackler. I mean, why can't we all just roam around in battleships, target and shoot and the one with the most dps wins? Damnit, all of Eve is broken. I mean, crap, why is it all these Caldari ships ad mods for Em damage when I use lasers! Heck, why can't we all use the same turrets?
Vrabac Zawa's Fan Club	Posted - 2010.03.03 20:03:00 - [174] Edited by: Vrabac on 03/03/2010 20:05:50 Originally by: Angelicus Doctor Originally by: Vrabac I just fit eccm. It doesn't help all that much ofc, but who cares I can alt tab and watch youtube or I can still have my DC active plus my drones are probably doing something too, it's not like ECM is op, it's fine, adapt or die, you can still bump and tank and... er, be there. Isn't that what most people do as Caldari dps bounces off their armor? Joking or what? Originally by: Angelicus Doctor Originally by: DHB WildCat So ** you all that think you know anything about this game and think that ECM is not broken. I hate it! I dont want to **ING USE IT! But in a game where everyone has at least 4 in their gangs, you have to bring your own. It is broken! I know what you mean. It sucks, all these gangs roaming around eve always have to bring some interceptor or some tackler. I mean, why can't we all just roam around in battleships, target and shoot and the one with the most dps wins? Damnit, all of Eve is broken. I mean, crap, why is it all these Caldari ships ad mods for Em damage when I use lasers! Heck, why can't we all use the same turrets? Guess you're not joking, it's genuine.
Oriss Amarr	Posted - 2010.03.03 20:21:00 - [175] Originally by: Terianna Eri Originally by: Oriss Amarr Show me an ECM boat that can put out DPS similar to a DPS ship of the same class? Rook has similar damage to a Cerberus and NONE of the EWAR boats have DPS approaching that of the pure DPS ships. In fact I think the Rook is the highest DPS recon in a standard fit. P.S. Balance issues aside ECM is a terrible mechanic anyway. It's boring and non-interactive. That's the POINT. The balancing issue with EWAR is they have to take one entire ship to the fight that is going to throw **** poor DPS to the fight, to take out a ship or two with EWAR. You really missed the point there kiddo. Also, "non-interactive" and "boring" LOL. Try playing against a stunlock rogue in WOW, or play Magic: The Gathering and play against a control deck. Anything that CONTROLS another player makes that other player feel like they can't play the game, when in reality a skilled player can. Saying those two words shows how lacking of skill you are.
Yakov Draken Minmatar Tides Of War	Posted - 2010.03.03 20:27:00 - [176] Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Originally by: Yakov Draken ECM remains killjoy. It is however counterable.... Impressive, you managed to not read the thread as a whole but also a post made a few hours prior to yours Are you really stupid? I'm just asking because your response was really dumb - y'now that smug "I flame without understanding" dumb. I try to respond to people with polite, coherent posts, but your post is just too stupid.
Joe Censored Unknown-Entity Black Star Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.03 21:01:00 - [177] Originally by: Oriss Amarr Also, ECM boats don't do jack besides ECM. Show me an ECM boat that can put out DPS similar to a DPS ship of the same class? I don't want to see changes to ECM, but I do have to take pause to this comment. My Rook fit will **** your face Last night a goonie learned the wisdom of the scout alt http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=9642174 Damn my rook only got 2nd on this mail, what's more embarrassing is my lack of drone skillz http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=9620499 Falcons are a delicacy for Rook pilots http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=9625521 Oh, and this one from last night is definitely for lolz! http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=9642772
Oriss Amarr	Posted - 2010.03.03 21:10:00 - [178] Edited by: Oriss Amarr on 03/03/2010 21:11:48 Originally by: Joe Censored Originally by: Oriss Amarr Also, ECM boats don't do jack besides ECM. Show me an ECM boat that can put out DPS similar to a DPS ship of the same class? I don't want to see changes to ECM, but I do have to take pause to this comment. My Rook fit will **** your face Last night a goonie learned the wisdom of the scout alt http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=9642174 Damn my rook only got 2nd on this mail, what's more embarrassing is my lack of drone skillz http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=9620499 Falcons are a delicacy for Rook pilots http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=9625521 Oh, and this one from last night is definitely for lolz! http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=9642772 Slight Rook damage nerf is in order, I agree with that. However, that doesn't change the fact that 9028930983270987402374028973490234.3 of the ECM whiners want the entire mechanic flipped inside out and made about as useless as the Dramiel after the inevitable nerf.
Dimitrios Ypsilanti	Posted - 2010.03.03 22:08:00 - [179] Don't nerf ECM. Boost FoF Missiles. Seems that if this were a real problem people would be fitting ECCM as a matter of course. As it is I almost never consider it when I'm fitting a ship. It really only shows up as a problem in small gang situations. If you're in a fleet, there are too many ways around it. If you're in 1 on 1 you run away when confronted with a Falcon / Rook / Scorpion and you don't like your chances. We will know when balance is restored when we start hearing from Falcon pilots complaining that they got taken down by a couple of rounds of FoF missiles because they effectively have no tank.
stoicfaux	Posted - 2010.03.03 22:42:00 - [180] Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Yes, it is binary in nature, but where is it written that has to be case? Why shouldn't it be more similar to other forms of eWar in application/power? We are (or I am anyway) trying to figure out an alternative where ECM isn't OP as sizes go down and a different effect for the target of the ECM (to get rid of the thumb-twiddle crap). I. ECM is affected by range using a non-linear curve You could reduce the ECM fuzziness based on range. Make it a curve instead of a linear effect. The closer you are to the target, the less effective ECM is. This would give you the ability to use maneuver to negate ECM. If you're right next to the target, it shouldn't be that hard to aim over iron sights. II. Just make it so that ECM reduces target sig size ECM a) reduces your sensor strength by a percentage, thus creating longer lock times and either b.1) reduces all your targets' sig size by some percentage which thus reduces the damage of your guns and missiles. ECM causes fuzzier targeting solutions. or b.2) increases the Signature Resolution on your guns and Explosion Radius on your missiles. ECM causes fuzzier targeting solutions. This would c) let you do some damage instead of no damage, and d) would let you use target painters and ECCM as a way to counter (or partially offset) the ECM (TPs increase target sig size, and ECCM increases sensor strength to reduce ECM's percentage effectiveness.) But would e) make ECM somewhat useless when smaller weapons are firing at large targets. (ECM'ing my rocket launcher doesn't really make hitting that battleship any harder.) ----- "Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you! -- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
Zetakya	Posted - 2010.03.04 00:32:00 - [181] Originally by: stoicfaux Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Yes, it is binary in nature, but where is it written that has to be case? Why shouldn't it be more similar to other forms of eWar in application/power? We are (or I am anyway) trying to figure out an alternative where ECM isn't OP as sizes go down and a different effect for the target of the ECM (to get rid of the thumb-twiddle crap). I. ECM is affected by range using a non-linear curve You could reduce the ECM fuzziness based on range. Make it a curve instead of a linear effect. The closer you are to the target, the less effective ECM is. This would give you the ability to use maneuver to negate ECM. If you're right next to the target, it shouldn't be that hard to aim over iron sights. II. Just make it so that ECM reduces target sig size ECM a) reduces your sensor strength by a percentage, thus creating longer lock times and either b.1) reduces all your targets' sig size by some percentage which thus reduces the damage of your guns and missiles. ECM causes fuzzier targeting solutions. or b.2) increases the Signature Resolution on your guns and Explosion Radius on your missiles. ECM causes fuzzier targeting solutions. This would c) let you do some damage instead of no damage, and d) would let you use target painters and ECCM as a way to counter (or partially offset) the ECM (TPs increase target sig size, and ECCM increases sensor strength to reduce ECM's percentage effectiveness.) But would e) make ECM somewhat useless when smaller weapons are firing at large targets. (ECM'ing my rocket launcher doesn't really make hitting that battleship any harder.) That's an interesting concept, but it'll be a serious nerf to survivability in small units because of how much easier it will be to have everything under the range. It also does nothing to directed interdiction or prop jamming, or the other directed electronic warfare methods, which all currently have major intersections with ECM in the EWar arena. First time I've ever seen someone arguing for more range on ECM tho...
Flitz Farseeker Interstellar Stormfront	Posted - 2010.03.04 10:00:00 - [182] Originally by: stoicfaux II. Just make it so that ECM reduces target sig size ECM a) reduces your sensor strength by a percentage, thus creating longer lock times and either b.1) reduces all your targets' sig size by some percentage which thus reduces the damage of your guns and missiles. ECM causes fuzzier targeting solutions. or b.2) increases the Signature Resolution on your guns and Explosion Radius on your missiles. ECM causes fuzzier targeting solutions. This would c) let you do some damage instead of no damage, and d) would let you use target painters and ECCM as a way to counter (or partially offset) the ECM (TPs increase target sig size, and ECCM increases sensor strength to reduce ECM's percentage effectiveness.) But would e) make ECM somewhat useless when smaller weapons are firing at large targets. (ECM'ing my rocket launcher doesn't really make hitting that battleship any harder.) I like this one.
dolmant	Posted - 2010.03.04 10:31:00 - [183] Originally by: Naomi Knight New month new ecm whine. ECM is fine , it has been nerfed too many times already. If you dont like it ,who cares you dont have to like everything in eve. I for 1 like ecm and the other ewars , they are well balanced atm. Taking out these would mean pvp would be boringly simple. Man, i read down to here, then i almost fell off my chair. I cant work out if this guy is serious or not! Taking ecm out would make pvp boring? AHAHAHAHAHA. hilarious. I think they didnt nerf ecm range enough. you get 70km opitmal? i want 70km medium neuts on my curse. I want rapiers with 70km webs. arazu should get at least 150km point (after all, all it does IS STOP YOU RUNNING AWAY IT HAS NO OTHER USE) with neuts on you can still fire guns, move around, etc etc. And i can only take down one ship at a time. Same deal for TD's. why do people THINK FC's primary falcons? its cos their OVERPOWERED. Why do they die quickly if hit? COS ECM IS MORE POWERFUL THAN TANK! Why fit an extender when you can fit more ecm and jam that tackling frigate? CCP must either reduce its strength to take out on average 2 unbonused ships of the same class, or make the optimal 20km, with falloff to 40, like ALL THE OTHER EWAR. Then maybe you will fit tanks to your falcon. Last night my 3 man gang got owned. engaged a even fight, us 3 (2bc cruiser) vs 8 (4 cruiser (1 bb) and rest destoryer/frig). BB jammed all 3 of us for the first 4 cycles. we got no kills. the destoryer our drones went on warped out. THEN i get my 3 man frig gang all jammed by a griffin (and my thrasher had eccm overloaded) http://www.minmatar-militia.org/kb/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=112741 Usually its fun, even if you die, but slowboating around dying is NOT fun. PS i agree with stoicfaux's idea, makes sense, but i doubt ccp is going to change ecm radically even though it kinda makes sense, since tp's are relatively redundant right now. PPS I almost never read the thread again after i post, it leaves me with a sense of a job done (if well or not) and i do not then have to feel slighted by further flames. All i can say is +1, may the chanced based pvp ewar die quickly, and go to hell.
Marlona Sky D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2010.03.04 11:05:00 - [184] Posting in a, "DHB WildCat is so distraught over losing a 'solo' kill because his Falcon alt was jammed by another Falcon, that he forgot to post in orange."
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2010.03.04 11:21:00 - [185] Originally by: dolmant lots of ** So stop using a falcon right! I **ing cant!!!!
Dibsi Dei Genos Occidere Sev3rance	Posted - 2010.03.04 12:13:00 - [186] For all the "well, ecm is chance based" let me just say it is not. Falcons and other ecm ships easily get 13-14 jam strength racials which is pretty much game over for t1 battlecruisers, hacs, t1 cruisers and below. In addition most of these ships have little slots to use for ECCM modules. Also falcon as an example has eight mid slots which means it has 5-7 jammers that on small engagements can indeed lock almost the entire enemy gang making them unable to do pretty much anything offensive. You guys like comparing ships a lot so: rapier can barely web two enemy ships, arazu can point people and make one or two enemy ships not_lock_very_far, pilgrim can neut a couple of ships from scram range and make a battleship not_track_that_good. None of these ships do that much more damage. There is pvp outside battleship gangs and fleet engagements. That is where the problem with ecm lies.
Forumena Altair	Posted - 2010.03.04 12:38:00 - [187] Boost ECCM so its a lot harder to be jammed in the first place and make it lower the time that you are jammed.
The Tzar T-Wrecks	Posted - 2010.03.04 13:05:00 - [188] Originally by: Dibsi Dei For all the "well, ecm is chance based" let me just say it is not. Lies Originally by: Dibsi Dei Falcons and other ecm ships easily get 13-14 jam strength racials which is pretty much game over for t1 battlecruisers, hacs, t1 cruisers and below. In addition most of these ships have little slots to use for ECCM modules. Bolded the important part here. 'Racials', so IF you get a successful dice roll and IF the opposing gang has only one of each type of the four individual racial jammers usually found of small gang pvp falcons. To get that 13-14 strength the falcon pilot must have max skills AND used all it's lowslots/rigs for augmenting that ECM strength. - A 10M ISK T1 cruiser shouldn't have much chance against a 150M ISK recon. - The following T1 BC's have space for ECCM if solo; Drake, Ferox, Myrm, Cane, Cyclone. All BC's have space for ECCM if they are in a gang with dedicated tacklers. If you are using a BC for dps then it shouldn't be tackling at all but providing EWAR in it's mids. In short any ship with more than 4 mids has space for ECCM when flying solo. They can also be overheated btw to provide a godly high signal strength for that ship class. Originally by: Dibsi Dei Also falcon as an example has eight mid slots which means it has 5-7 jammers that on small engagements can indeed lock almost the entire enemy gang making them unable to do pretty much anything offensive. Falcon with 5 jammers will be pretty much instapopped by any gang, you can stop them warping away by bumping them and drones will auto-agress if you have them setup for this. Falcon with 7 jammers won't have an MWD which means it's pretty screwed in 0.0 and can only engage on it's side of the gate in higher security systems due to range being essential. Hell it wont even lock fast usually without a sensor booster. Originally by: Dibsi Dei You guys like comparing ships a lot so: rapier can barely web two enemy ships, arazu can point people and make one or two enemy ships not_lock_very_far, pilgrim can neut a couple of ships from scram range and make a battleship not_track_that_good. None of these ships do that much more damage. - All other recons don't have racial effects limiting their EWAR. - All other recons don't have chance limiting their EWAR. - All other recons don't have to use other modules to booster their EWAR to become effective. - Pilgrim is probably the best solo ship in the game. - Rapier and Arazu are also very good solo ships. If you fit a Rapier and Arazu like you have to fit a falcon (i.e. use all the mids for EWAR) then suddenly you can actually web or damp 4/5 ships with assured effect regardless of ship size. Originally by: Dibsi Dei There is pvp outside battleship gangs and fleet engagements. That is where the problem with ecm lies. Look at the cost to effect ratio. A BC gang should be screwed by a recon costing 5 times as much, frigs and cruisers even more so. HAC's have a low signal strength as a class effect anyway due to the hull they're based on, weapons rather than electronics etc. Please resize your signature to the maximum allowed of 400 x 120 pixels.StevieSG
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.03.04 14:28:00 - [189] Originally by: The Tzar Bolded the important part here. 'Racials', so IF you get a successful dice roll and IF the opposing gang has only one of each type of the four individual racial jammers usually found of small gang pvp falcons. One of each only? No wonder you don't see the issues if you judge on the basis of generic-fits. One Caldari is generally enough to jam hostile ecm/bait-drake, rest mainly Minmatar and a few Gallente/Amarr .. luckily scouting an enemy is so damn easy that you can tailor fit the ECM within a few minutes. Originally by: The Tzar - The following T1 BC's have space for ECCM if solo; Drake, Ferox, Myrm, Cane, Cyclone. Any ship can fit ECCM, Woohoo! Instead of 1 jammer needed you need two to insure success. Base sensor on sub-BS hulls is utter crap. Even BS are recommended to use two ECCM so one on a BC does very little in actual use. Originally by: The Tzar Falcon with 5 jammers will be pretty much instapopped by any gang, you can stop them warping away by bumping them and drones will auto-agress if you have them setup for this. Falcon with 7 jammers won't have an MWD which means it's pretty screwed in 0.0 and can only engage on it's side of the gate in higher security systems due to range being essential. Hell it wont even lock fast usually without a sensor booster. Pray tell what gang has 8-10k alpha damage to project across 60-80km .. let me answer for you: snipers. So your solution is to lug around 3-4 sniper BS at all times? Null-sec and its bubbles make PvP easy-mode (mandatory flame-bait statement). ECM is perfectly balanced in blob-land, it breaks down and becomes OP everywhere else. Originally by: The Tzar - All other recons don't have racial effects limiting their EWAR. Right. Because neuting does wonders against buffer/passive tanks using missiles/projectiles/drones. And all those readily available MWDs don't mitigate webs at all .. etc. Originally by: The Tzar - All other recons don't have chance limiting their EWAR. Quite right. Instead they are forced to be within range of cruiser weapons and up rather than BS sniper weapons only .. guess which is better. Originally by: The Tzar - All other recons don't have to use other modules to booster their EWAR to become effective. Neuts run on fairy-dust, true story. And due to the very limited range of all other recons MWD and tank is mandatory so there goes that little illusion. Just because a module does not directly affect the eWar in question does not mean it can ruled out. Your theoretical Rapier for instance, guess how long that one lasts with no buffer to allow time to get out? Its in range of practically everything, remember. And Pilgrim is indeed awesome. Unfortunately it is mostly at ganking PvE'ers with cap dependent weapons/tank .. against others not so much. Fun as hell though and that's a big plus in any book. Originally by: The Tzar Look at the cost to effect ratio. A BC gang should be screwed by a recon costing 5 times as much, frigs and cruisers even more so. HAC's have a low signal strength as a class effect anyway due to the hull they're based on, weapons rather than electronics etc. Oh no you didn't! Did you just play the ISK-balance card? Guess you weren't around the last 10 times when it was discarded as nonsense and balancing went ahead anyway. Problem is that ECM is appears to be "balanced" for null-sec only. Once it is applied anywhere else it breaks everything and becomes a giant vacuum sucking the fun out of what can be the best damn PvP game-play on the market (small-gang PvP in case you are unaware). CCP needs to make good on their promise of wanting to make small-gang action the hallmark of Eve and stop catering to the sovereignty megalomaniacs (one more flame-bait for good measure).
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2010.03.04 14:39:00 - [190] Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Problem is You!
Vrabac Zawa's Fan Club	Posted - 2010.03.04 14:57:00 - [191] Originally by: The Tzar To get that 13-14 strength the falcon pilot must have max skills AND used all it's lowslots/rigs for augmenting that ECM strength. Two things are funny here. First, omg to be good you need spaceship command at lvl5, there I was flying my absolution with CS lvl2 oh the horror. Second, you can get strenth 14 without rigs. What an expert you are. Originally by: The Tzar The following T1 BC's have space for ECCM if solo; Drake, Ferox, Myrm, Cane, Cyclone. All BC's have space for ECCM if they are in a gang with dedicated tacklers. If you are using a BC for dps then it shouldn't be tackling at all but providing EWAR in it's mids. I'm not sure what to say here really, this part is so confused, contradicting and plain stupid that I'm not sure how to actually comment on it. Originally by: The Tzar you can stop them warping away by bumping them and drones will auto-agress if you have them setup for this Yes and you can alt tab and browse internet while doing it too. It must be what all you falcon alts are talking about when saying that "skilled players" know how to deal with ecm, no? Bump them and drones do something on their own, woohooo. Originally by: The Tzar - All other recons don't have racial effects limiting their EWAR. - All other recons don't have chance limiting their EWAR. - All other recons don't have to use other modules to booster their EWAR to become effective. - Pilgrim is probably the best solo ship in the game. - Rapier and Arazu are also very good solo ships. If you fit a Rapier and Arazu like you have to fit a falcon (i.e. use all the mids for EWAR) then suddenly you can actually web or damp 4/5 ships with assured effect regardless of ship size. - lol - lol - lol - ROFLMAO - LMAO Ah man the laughs one gets from reading S&M.
Unctom	Posted - 2010.03.04 14:58:00 - [192] ECM is such a major part of the caldari lineup of ships, especially caldari pvp ships. I don't know how you can overhaul it without raping caldari pvp( missiles+rails+shields yeaaaah) It really can't be compared to other races ewar meaningfully. ECM modules usually dominate ALL the mid/low/rig slots on a ecm ship while there is usually only one or two TP/TD/RSD fitted(if any). ECM takes other ships out of the fight in exchange for taking its own dps/tank out. ECCM could use a boost, but I'm not sure how much would be ok without overpowering RR BS gangs.
Dr Fighter	Posted - 2010.03.04 15:10:00 - [193] The Tzar's post was so bad i didnt even bother to quote it and slate it. The chosen solution to this ECM issue is one that involves keeping ECM powerfull in all situations but not overpowered on smaller gangs/ships. This is not easy at all this is why we revisit ECM every few months, some discussions going on for 10's of pages. Main issues are - its super unfun to be jammed, and boring as hell doing the jamming. No one likes ECM, but everyone aggres its the only counter to some tactics and thats why it shouldnt be removed or altered completely. Thankfully there are new (decent) ideas popping up, and with any luck a ccp dev will combine a few into a workable fair and perhaps even fun package.
Vrabac Zawa's Fan Club	Posted - 2010.03.04 15:10:00 - [194] Originally by: Unctom ECM is such a major part of the caldari lineup of ships, especially caldari pvp ships. I don't know how you can overhaul it without raping caldari pvp( missiles+rails+shields yeaaaah) It really can't be compared to other races ewar meaningfully. ECM modules usually dominate ALL the mid/low/rig slots on a ecm ship while there is usually only one or two TP/TD/RSD fitted(if any). ECM takes other ships out of the fight in exchange for taking its own dps/tank out. ECCM could use a boost, but I'm not sure how much would be ok without overpowering RR BS gangs. Now this actually makes sense, however EVE isn't race vs race, there is no such thing as caldari lined up vs someone else, people can team up without regard for in-game race. Also, caldari are greatly underrated in pvp in general, they have many good ships other than recons. In addition to that, I don't think anyone wants to make their recons and other EW ships useless, but to make them less party breaking than they currently are. At least that's my understanding.
Mr Management	Posted - 2010.03.04 16:54:00 - [195] Sop listening to whiners and fix neutral Remote Reaping in empire.
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2010.03.04 17:13:00 - [196] Originally by: Dibsi Dei For all the "well, ecm is chance based" let me just say it is not. You are lying. Originally by: Dibsi Dei Falcons and other ecm ships easily get 13-14 jam strength racials More likely it will be 12,3 with decent fit. If you have right jammer. Originally by: Dibsi Dei rapier can barely web two enemy ships Barely? Bull**, it can /and it does!/ comfortably fit 2 webs. Originally by:** Dibsi Dei arazu can point people and make one or two enemy ships not_lock_very_far Point at 48k and prevent 2-4 ships from shooting at your logis, recons, hacs... Originally by: Dibsi Dei pilgrim can neut a couple of ships from scram range and make a battleship not_track_that_good Hm, now i see you are incompetent. Originally by: Hirana Yoshida One Caldari is generally enough to jam hostile ecm Gl with that, you are going vs 28 signal strenght. Originally by: Hirana Yoshida luckily scouting an enemy is so damn easy that you can tailor fit the ECM within a few minutes. Yes, because scouting if enemy has ecm is damn hard and fitting ships for fighting ecm takes hours. Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Any ship can fit ECCM, Woohoo! Instead of 1 jammer needed you need two to insure success. Its chance based, you are never sure that you will get a jam /you definitely are not sure vs eccmed bc/, if you dont, you have to leave field. Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Even BS are recommended to use two ECCM No. Originally by: Hirana Yoshida So your solution is to lug around 3-4 sniper BS at all times? Many ways to counter ecm - own ecm, eccm, damps, missiles - drake or cerb, drones - bouncers love falcons, sniper hacs/bs - pulse apoc will do good. Originally by: Hirana Yoshida due to the very limited range of all other recons MWD and tank is mandatory So ecm ships dont have to use mwd and tank right? Btw range of all ewar is pretty much same - 45 + falloff. Originally by: Hirana Yoshida And Pilgrim is indeed awesome. Unfortunately it is mostly at ganking PvE'ers with cap dependent weapons/tank Yes, ships they have their roles... In fact pilgrim can take out even pvp ships if they are active tanked and use guns. Originally by: Dr Fighter Main issues are - its super unfun to be jammed, and boring as hell doing the jamming. Yes and not always. Originally by: Unctom ECM is such a major part of the caldari lineup of ships, especially caldari pvp ships. I don't know how you can overhaul it without raping caldari pvp THIS. Originally by: Unctom It really can't be compared to other races ewar meaningfully. ECM modules usually dominate ALL the mid/low/rig slots on a ecm ship while there is usually only one or two TP/TD/RSD fitted(if any). Not completely true. Id say other ewar is more niche, but definitely has its uses - only mst ppl are not competent enough to use it as advantage. Btw i fit one td on some of my kiting ships, why dont i use 1x ecm if its that op compared to others?
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.03.04 18:23:00 - [197] Originally by: Lugalzagezi666 Gl with that, you are going vs 28 signal strenght. If only ECM = Recon which of course it does not. Even then a single racial + multispec gives you 65-70% depending on fit to remove it completely for 20s. Originally by: Lugalzagezi666 Yes, because scouting if enemy has ecm is damn hard and fitting ships for fighting ecm takes hours. Since it would require 8-10k alpha to 60km capability, yes it is actually quite bit harder. For an AF/cruiser/BC gang its not only harder but quite impossible actually. Originally by: Lugalzagezi666 Its chance based, you are never sure that you will get a jam /you definitely are not sure vs eccmed bc/, if you dont, you have to leave field. Leave field against ECCM BC? 90+% of all BCs are trimarked, maximum speed is 1k/s .. range is 20-25km dependent on weapons .. you have time enough for (3) tries! before it becomes a threat .. provided the hero-BC isn't burned down long before that Originally by: Lugalzagezi666 No. Yes. Originally by: Lugalzagezi666 Many ways to counter ecm - own ecm, eccm, damps, missiles - drake or cerb, drones - bouncers love falcons, sniper hacs/bs - pulse apoc will do good. ECM to counter ECM, check. Sniper to counter ECM, check. ECCM to counter ECM (on BS only), Check. Drones to counter ECM, No. (Requires lock and/or target to be within control range). Missiles, really? FoFs are laughable except in extremely special circumstances and directed missiles needs locks .. not that many missile spammers in PvP anyway after they have been told they suck by all the 'leet' PvP'ers for years on end. So yes, there are counters to ECM, but once you leave the BS arena the number dwindles to next to nothing very, very fast. Crappy sensors and low slot counts does not exactly encourage experimental anti-ECM fits unless the enemy uses it consistently. The only one in that pile that has any merit is damps, but you need a lot of them to make a dent in the base lock range of an ECM boat, remember that BBs have range bonus so are deep in damp fall-off to begin with. Originally by: Lugalzagezi666 So ecm ships dont have to use mwd and tank right? Btw range of all ewar is pretty much same - 45 + falloff. Never seen a single ECM ship outside of fleet and bait fits with a tank, so I would say no they don't use tank. MWD is a matter of addiction, considered mandatory on almost everything but technically not needed with proper bookmarks available. Originally by: Lugalzagezi666 Yes, ships they have their roles... In fact pilgrim can take out even pvp ships if they are active tanked and use guns. Active tank + PvP in same sentence? Argument is a few years out of date I am afraid. Buffer baby, all buffer all the time! Originally by: Unctom ECM is such a major part of the caldari lineup of ships, especially caldari pvp ships. I don't know how you can overhaul it without raping caldari pvp ECM is not Caldari PvP, ECM are eWar support modules. The fact that you even make that statement is evidence that it is broken when it can outshine all the other attributes of a more than decent ship line-up. Originally by: Lugalzagezi666 Btw i fit one td on some of my kiting ships, why dont i use 1x ecm if its that op compared to others? Because CCP are well aware of how broken ECM is but have no idea how to fix it. That was the reason strength of modules was hammered down and ship bonuses boosted .. to kill the ECM Domi among others. Unbonused ECM is madly effective against frigates/destroyers though so feel free to experiment.
Meeko Atari	Posted - 2010.03.04 18:37:00 - [198] Just browsing around looking at kill boards, looking at every ship that was killed with a EMC boat in tow.. Don't see a whole lot of + cruiser sized ships fitting ECCM It does work, I have tried it and have killed Falcons / Rooks and Scorps with it fitted If you are going to fight a gang with ECM support why wouldn't you fit ECCM? That's like fighting a Curse without a Cap Booster
Tulisin Dragonflame	Posted - 2010.03.04 18:45:00 - [199] Edited by: Tulisin Dragonflame on 04/03/2010 18:45:15 Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Originally by: Tarhim Will it be better if it worked somehow like outlined in those thread already? Breaks locking (but you can re-acquire immediately) and at the same renders your targeting/tracking ability nearly useless (percentage based penalties, for example)? End result being that it works pretty much the same but no thumb-twiddling, just shooting without effect. Would need to have a secondary effect other than just breaking locks, since that would flip the whole thing and make frigates with fast locks impossible to shake. Thats what neuts are for. Seriously, you don't damp boats that are right in your face, you don't neutralize missile-spamming shieldbuffers, you don't tracking disrupt the droneboat, you don't web carriers, and you don't paint dreads, why should ECM not have priority targets? Yeah, a fast-locking intie would be able to recover from ECM quickly if they were on top of things, but a lazy one would give an aligned target a chance to warp off. I like the purely lock-breaking idea, it is useful and effective against some targets instead of all, works well together with other ewar (damps become useful in combination with ECM, particularly), counterable with skills and modules that aren't useless if ECM doesn't show up, and gives the targetted pilot something active to do ("Oh crap, gotta relock all the stuff I was shooting/repping ASAP, maybe switch a script for lock speed") instead of sitting around twiddling his thumbs for 20 seconds and hoping. The current cycle time and strength of ECM could be played with while implementing this mechanic, no need to keep the current numbers if they're ineffective. Edit: Optionally, implement this idea but don't take the "can't lock" period away, just reduce it to 2 seconds or so, which puts a bit of a buffer/floor on the time until you're relocked by something that locks really fast.
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2010.03.04 19:27:00 - [200] Edited by: Naomi Knight on 04/03/2010 19:28:22 Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Leave field against ECCM BC? 90+% of all BCs are trimarked, maximum speed is 1k/s .. range is 20-25km dependent on weapons .. you have time enough for (3) tries! before it becomes a threat .. provided the hero-BC isn't burned down long before that Why are you fitting them with 3 trimark and huge buffer tank and short range weapons ,if you are so affraid of ECM? Oh you still want to max out dps/tank and not even bend little for better jamm resist,I see then you realy ask for an ecm nerf because you dont want to adapt? I just cant see the logic in your thinking ,is there any? If being jammed is such a huge possiblity as you say so, then why are you keeping fitting agains dps?
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2010.03.04 19:34:00 - [201] Originally by: Hirana Yoshida If only ECM = Recon which of course it does not. Yes, then we have here bb with 20 sensor strenght, griffin with 17 and kitsune with 24 and scorp with 24. If only you had always your caldari jammer on falcon, because on bb it has only 8,6 strenght. Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Even then a single racial + multispec gives you 65-70% depending on fit to remove it completely for 20s. Woohoo. 2 damps will take out falcon sitting at 80k out of fight. 100% chance. Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Since it would require 8-10k alpha to 60km capability, yes it is actually quite bit harder. No, you dont need any alpha, you just need to get it out of the field. And once hits land, pilot will decide to gtfo... or die there. Originally by: Hirana Yoshida For an AF/cruiser/BC gang its not only harder but quite impossible actually. Lies. Maulus can do it... Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Leave field against ECCM BC? 90+% of all BCs are trimarked, maximum speed is 1k/s .. range is 20-25km dependent on weapons .. you have time enough for (3) tries! before it becomes a threat .. provided the hero-BC isn't burned down long before that If you fly in such gangs, then you shouldnt be surprised that enemy will use range as advantage. My drake hits to 80k and fits eccm without problems. Continue flying trimarked harbingers and then cry on vent about ecm. Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Even BS are recommended to use two ECCM No. Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Drones to counter ECM, No. (Requires lock and/or target to be within control range). And there are no mods increasing drone control range and drones are not auto aggressing. And god forbid we have to actually move in fight... Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Missiles, really? FoFs are laughable except in extremely special circumstances and directed missiles needs locks Fofs laughable - maybe. They work? Sometimes. Faction hmls on drake? Yes, work much better than trimarked harbingers. Originally by: Hirana Yoshida not that many missile spammers in PvP anyway after they have been told they suck by all the 'leet' PvP'ers for years on end. That you call an argument? Originally by: Hirana Yoshida The only one in that pile that has any merit is damps, but you need a lot of them to make a dent in the base lock range of an ECM boat Damps have 90k falloff if i remember. Btw there are rigs to increase both optimal and falloff so wheres the problem? And the farther ecm boat is from fight, the less damps you need to get him out of fight. Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Never seen a single ECM ship outside of fleet and bait fits with a tank, so I would say no they don't use tank. MWD is a matter of addiction, considered mandatory on almost everything but technically not needed with proper bookmarks available. I see you have no idea about flying ecm ships. Btw 1600 rt and dc is standard - just to prevent being 1 volleyd by some artypest or sth. Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Active tank + PvP in same sentence? Argument is a few years out of date I am afraid. Buffer baby, all buffer all the time! Situational. Originally by: Hirana Yoshida ECM is not Caldari PvP, ECM are eWar support modules. Ecm is caldari ewar. Only caldari ship have bonuses for it. Performances of 7 caldari ships depend on it.
Dr Cron Northern Lights Number 5 Hydroponic Zone	Posted - 2010.03.04 20:09:00 - [202] OP uses ECM for X number of years and decides that NOW, after several nerfs, it needs a change. What is this?
Dimitrios Ypsilanti	Posted - 2010.03.04 20:14:00 - [203] Originally by: Dimitrios Ypsilanti Don't nerf ECM. Boost FoF Missiles. Seems that if this were a real problem people would be fitting ECCM as a matter of course. As it is I almost never consider it when I'm fitting a ship. It really only shows up as a problem in small gang situations. If you're in a fleet, there are too many ways around it. If you're in 1 on 1 you run away when confronted with a Falcon / Rook / Scorpion and you don't like your chances. We will know when balance is restored when we start hearing from Falcon pilots complaining that they got taken down by a couple of rounds of FoF missiles because they effectively have no tank. Hey! I think this guy is a genius!
Baneken Gallente Aseveljet	Posted - 2010.03.04 20:39:00 - [204] For the record 3x dampeners on a Keres with max skills reduces targeting range for approx. 70%. That means anything with a 100km lock range will shoot you anyway as long as you have a range of -30 km from the target. Basically problem with the damps is that you get shot anyway in a ship that can't take those hits.
Tulisin Dragonflame	Posted - 2010.03.04 20:41:00 - [205] Originally by: Baneken For the record 3x dampeners on a Keres with max skills reduces targeting range for approx. 70%. That means anything with a 100km lock range will shoot you anyway as long as you have a range of -30 km from the target. Basically problem with the damps is that you get shot anyway in a ship that can't take those hits. ECM should require being close like damps and damps should be the ones effective at >50km, TBH.
Jovialmadness	Posted - 2010.03.04 20:52:00 - [206] Edited by: Jovialmadness on 04/03/2010 20:53:17 Quote: ECM should require being close like damps and damps should be the ones effective at >50km, TBH. shotgun belief tbh and I actually agree with it. Shotgun is more certain to cause more damage up close just like ECM will cause the most disruption so therefore should be close. Only problem with this is the platforms used to project ECM jamming are made of glass. That would have to be altered.
Meeko Atari	Posted - 2010.03.04 20:58:00 - [207] Originally by: Baneken For the record 3x dampeners on a Keres with max skills reduces targeting range for approx. 70%. That means anything with a 100km lock range will shoot you anyway as long as you have a range of -30 km from the target. Basically problem with the damps is that you get shot anyway in a ship that can't take those hits. And what ECM boat do you think you can tank damage in? ECM ships have some of the lowest numbers concerning tank / resists
Baneken Gallente Aseveljet	Posted - 2010.03.04 21:20:00 - [208] Originally by: Meeko Atari And what ECM boat do you think you can tank damage in? ECM ships have some of the lowest numbers concerning tank / resists ECM boats don't need to since ECM is better then any tank you can imagine as it is. Hence it doesn't matter if ECM boat is sitting in your face or 100km away it's still safe as long as ECM works but shortening the range would force ECM boats to take a risk of getting pounded by those they can't handle (ie. close range, slow ass, blaster boats and drones), currently they don't have such issues since they can easily jump out if such a risk presents it self.
Spectre3353 Gallente The Python Cartel. The Jerk Cartel	Posted - 2010.03.04 22:44:00 - [209] Originally by: Furb Killer Imo ECM needs to be completely changed. A game mechanic that results in being forced to watch a timer count down and hoping the dice rolls favourable for you next time is a bad game mechanic imo. This. Realistically though they will never totally revamp ECM. They already fixed one of the worst problems by nerfing Falcon range so that you actually have to risk one to take part in the fight and so that they aren't immune to sentries. Now they just have to make ECCM cause a ship to be IMMUNE to ECM and things will be in a much more manageable state then they were a year ago. ----- http://evenewb.blogspot.com/ Please re-size your signature to the maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Zymurgist
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2010.03.04 22:54:00 - [210] Just play to win.
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2010.03.04 22:55:00 - [211] Originally by: Spectre3353 Now they just have to make ECCM cause a ship to be IMMUNE to ECM and things will be in a much more manageable state then they were a year ago. Yes, and make sensor boosters cause ship immune to damps, tcs to tracking disruptors, crs /?/ to neuts...
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2010.03.04 23:19:00 - [212] Originally by: Lugalzagezi666 Originally by: Spectre3353 Now they just have to make ECCM cause a ship to be IMMUNE to ECM and things will be in a much more manageable state then they were a year ago. Yes, and make sensor boosters cause ship immune to damps, tcs to tracking disruptors, crs /?/ to neuts... You forgot invu fields to make immune against turrets :)
Insa Rexion Minmatar Fumar Puede Matar	Posted - 2010.03.05 07:34:00 - [213] Originally by: Naomi Knight Who cares about some stupid blue vs reds thingy? So because in alli tournaments players cant warp out should we nerf warping? If you have to put words in my mouth to score points yer off to a bad start Quote: what is the first thing all FCs ask for after DPS (TACKLER/LOGI) I would say it's about even between LOGI and ECM but the point is they (mostly) ask for ECM specifically as opposed to EWAR in general Quote: what ships are most likely to be primaried in almost any engagement ? (TACKLERS/LOGIS/expensive stuff ) what kind of morons are you flying with who primary the tackle ?? unless of course YOUR primary objective is always just to escape ? High DPS dealers with fragile tanks and ECM are almost always primaried and LOGIS perhaps but it's very situational with them. Quote: What is the most common form of ewar seen in Eve combat today ? (Disruptors/Scramblers by quite a margin oh and lasers :P) I really didn't think I'd have to spell it out that I was referring to "which of the four RACIAL types of EWAR"... or were you just trying to be a smart ass ? Quote: In other words, the "balancing" has done little to change the stupidity of ECM victims simply because they are that stupid and lazy. When we see target painting used as much as ECM we will know we are fighting against noobz or ECM is just completely useless, but really I'm not holding my breath. That said, it's not the end of the world, there are counters and one can ue it oneself, it's just the prevalence of it as a tactic called WHINING it usually works if we blob the forums. In ur desperate attempt to look clever with this post you missed the point i was making entirely despite rewording for your own "clever" parody... I don't think ECM is unfair, I DO think anyone can use it, I do think there are counters to it, what bothers me is it's overwhelming PREVALENCE as a tactic. I'm asking for more variety, hell a buff to the other forms of EWAR would be just as pleasing so long as it lead to an INCREASE in viable tactics making combat more interesting and less formulaic. In future perhaps you should read past the first line of someone's post and understand it before you proceed to skim through and parody what you though they meant. -------------------------------------------- well mannered ****ole
Vherr Arkhar	Posted - 2010.03.05 09:21:00 - [214] Quote: - A 10M ISK T1 cruiser shouldn't have much chance against a 150M ISK recon. This is a total missconception in eve, tbh. Even a 1M isk frigate can destroy a 200 mill isk buffer tanked abaddon. Takes some time, but if no friends get there in time and once the drones are popped... thats it. There is a chance this happens... it probably does happen every single day of eve somewhere... So, basically one of the marvels of eve: Neither pure isk nor massive SP will guarantee you a win. This is not warcraft or any of those "gear and grind only" games. Thats why eve works even without new players ever 'overtaking' old ones. So falcon you say? I say: get a keres pilot to watch out for falcons: lock, damp, tackle and send one of your younger fleetmates in his stabber to kill the falcon. Or let the keres pilot try his luck with those railguns g The counters are there. But yeah, if you dont have one, you're screwed. But thats like saying "you need a tackler or people escape". YEAH THEY DO! So you need to use ewar to counter ewar. YES YOU DO. Considering that as soon as you are more-than-one pilot in a gang at least one of you can be ewar, thats rather acceptable, no?
Johan Sabbat HammerTime Production Group	Posted - 2010.03.05 10:57:00 - [215] Originally by: Vherr Arkhar The counters are there. But yeah, if you dont have one, you're screwed. But thats like saying "you need a tackler or people escape". YEAH THEY DO! So you need to use ewar to counter ewar. YES YOU DO. Considering that as soon as you are more-than-one pilot in a gang at least one of you can be ewar, thats rather acceptable, no? I agree that the counters to ECM are there. The question is why would someone bring ewar other than ECM? Personally I think that if there is still an issue with ECM then the only thing CCP can do is change the mechanic; any more nerfs and you've killed a whole line of ships (though the rook isn't bad as a cheaper cerberus with less range).
Winters Chill Amarr Shadow Legion. Talos Coalition	Posted - 2010.03.05 11:10:00 - [216] Edited by: Winters Chill on 05/03/2010 11:12:43 ECM Scramblers: Low Fitting Cost - ECM should only prevent you locking the source of the ECM. ECM Disruptors: High fitting cost - prevent target from locking at all (as is basically) Or something, who knows Stupid module group anyways.
Andrea Griffin	Posted - 2010.03.05 14:34:00 - [217] Originally by: Johan Sabbat The question is why would someone bring ewar other than ECM? Because ECM doesn't always work. Sensor damps, tracking disruptors, painters (har har) all work 100% as long as you're in optimal. ECM does not. Put a single TD on a turret ship for example, even an unbonused one, and they might as well be jammed. They can't hit the broad side of a barn. Have snipers? A single SD will force them to close range, which they cannot afford to do because they'll die a horrible burning death. Add 2-3 bonused sensor damps and a long point and almost any ship won't be able to target the tackler, everyone else can plink away at range - and there's NO chance for the enemy ship to get a lock. Those EWar modules are also very effective on unbonused ships. ECM on anything other than an ECM ship is pretty awful.
Dr Fighter	Posted - 2010.03.05 15:11:00 - [218] for the sole purpose of providing direct EW in a decent size gang ANY fc will choose ECM first over all others unless they feel like they specificly need a super long piont/web/nuet. TDs and damps are so rarly seen being used its not even funny, esp with siheld buffers on recons being the FOTM, why waste precious EHP slots on a subpar EW system
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.03.05 15:12:00 - [219] Originally by: Andrea Griffin Because ECM doesn't always work. Sensor damps, tracking disruptors, painters (har har) all work 100% as long as you're in optimal. ECM does not. Accurate up to a point. TD with either range or tracking disruption is easily remedied by movement, simply switching targets or fitting one of a multitude of available mods/rigs that even boosts performance in the absence of TD's. Same story for dampeners; movement, target switch or fitting generally beneficial mods/rigs. Only TP's have no similar counter, but their effects are difficult to gauge to start with so no one is the wiser Common traits for all non-ECM eWar are; In most circumstances you need two or more per target for any noticeable effect and the ships with bonuses don't have that many mids to go around in the first place. They fare rather poorly against gangs with complementary compositions (ie. no obvious target to damp/TD). Quickly become useless once as gang sizes increase and you will always have some unhindered ships trying to do you in. ECM shares the 2+ mods per target for larger targets but has none of the other drawbacks. ECM is overpowering on the small scale and the only really viable eWar on the large scale (ranges/hulls/gangs). Problem is that it is apparently by design since the Scorpion is the only eWar BS .. but if it to be viable in fleets, then it should be at least on par with alternatives in gangs and not the "baah, they have ECM lets go home".
Dav Varan	Posted - 2010.03.05 16:02:00 - [220] Edited by: Dav Varan on 05/03/2010 16:03:07 imo ECM doesnt need a nerf it needs a re-write. Its too powerful in solo / small gang encounters. What I would like to see is the introduction of a different mechanic for ECM. Instead of breaking locks I would like to see it work as follows. 1. Introduce new functionality ( disabed ( jammed ) target locks ). This is like a normal lock but it is "greyed out" any weapon active on that lock will not fire because the lock is jammed. Instead of a random chance to completely jam a ship as is the case now. A ECM boat will jam a proportion of the targets ships locks. If the target ship has 4 locks and the falcon has a 75% jam probability then 3 out of 4 locks will be jammed. which locks gets jammed would remain random. so for exaple a target ship with 4 lock max would have 3 of its locks jammed , giving it offencive options against only 1 of its locked targets. Example First Cycle [ECM BOAT] [Secondary] [Primary] [RR Buddy] Jammed Open Jammed Jammed The ecm jams the rr to the targets rr buddy. The ecm jams the damage to the primary. The ecm jams the lock now on itself. The secondary target is still open to attack. The locks stay on screen and do not have to be restablished. At this point the jammed pilot has the choice to re-assign his weapons to the secondary or he could just wait for the next jam cycle. Other choices would be to drop a few locks and re-istablish locks in a different order either to permit rr on his buddy or to fire on the ecm boat or primary.
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2010.03.05 16:16:00 - [221] Originally by: Dr Fighter for the sole purpose of providing direct EW in a decent size gang ANY fc will choose ECM first over all others unless they feel like they specificly need a super long piont/web/nuet. Long scram/disruptor, web or neut is always good to have in gang - and with these you also get damps, tp or tds on one ship. Originally by: Dr Fighter TDs and damps are so rarly seen being used its not even funny Do you have the statistics of using tds and damps? Or its just personal experience? My experience is, that i fit td on everything that can spare one med. Originally by: Dr Fighter esp with siheld buffers on recons being the FOTM, why waste precious EHP slots on a subpar EW system Waste ehp? Most recons are by default 2x lse buffered and can comfortably fit some ewar. If they decide not to use it, they should be in another ship /oh wait, other races have 2 ewar bonuses on recons/. Subpar ew? Because you feel this way? Because you are incompetent to get together gang of hacs that operate at 50k where they can fully use advantage of damps or tds /or stealth bomers etc./. Originally by: Hirana Yoshida TD with either range or tracking disruption is easily remedied by movement, simply switching targets or fitting one of a multitude of available mods/rigs Ah, so you can easily get rid of negative td effects by moving, but you wont ever get close to ecm boat... with your trimarked bcs that go 1k at most. Or you can swith target to shoot another ship - that is 50k away too... And ofc mod that can increase your protection vs ecm /and makes you harder to probe/ doesnt exist. Same story for dampeners. Originally by: Hirana Yoshida In most circumstances you need two or more per target for any noticeable effect and the ships with bonuses don't have that many mids to go around in the first place. Same for ecm. If you think you can permajam some targets with 1 racial, you are dumb. And you need right racial jammer btw. Dont have that many mids? Armor tank it /like most falcons/ and you will have enough mids...or fly them untanked like all ecm boats you ever seen. Originally by: Hirana Yoshida They fare rather poorly against gangs with complementary compositions (ie. no obvious target to damp/TD) Tds doesnt work vs missile ships and drone boats /why would you take tding ships vs drake gang if its soo easy to scout them?/, damps work even vs them. Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Quickly become useless once as gang sizes increase and you will always have some unhindered ships trying to do you in. EXACTLY the same for ecm. If you think you can jam everything you are wrong. And if you think there wont be enough ships that can reach you, you are wrong again... Originally by: Hirana Yoshida ECM is overpowering on the small scale and the only really viable eWar on the large scale (ranges/hulls/gangs). No, other ewar can work as good as ecm on small scale and on large scale ALL ewar is food for snipers, no matter what you do. Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Problem is that it is apparently by design since the Scorpion is the only eWar BS .. but if it to be viable in fleets, then it should be at least on par with alternatives in gangs and not the "baah, they have ECM lets go home". LOL? Scorpion is usually first bs to go down, no matter what you do, because it cant fit decent buffer - and if he warps in at 100 and you dont have anything to counter, its your problem and you deserve to die /it would be the same with sniper bses/.
Dr Fighter	Posted - 2010.03.05 16:21:00 - [222] Edited by: Dr Fighter on 05/03/2010 16:22:36 Originally by: Lugalzagezi666 Subpar ew? Because you feel this way? Because you are incompetent to get together gang of hacs that operate at 50k where they can fully use advantage of damps or tds /or stealth bomers etc. i run HAC gangs, and its either more dps or a falcon. Your a mug if you think a damp ship is better than more dps or a falcon. Im a competent pilot, i only find damps and TDs on dead stuff, and thats because it didnt protect them or they're gang. I do not fit damps and TDs, even to bonused ships (curse for example) because i know that its too situation specific to bother watsing a slot on. Yes a solo arazu might be able to kill somthing from 50km thats defenceless because it doesnt have the speed or the lock range. If that were a rook or falcon the exact same could be achived at any range you wish, in complete safty. I used to fly a damp curse at one stage, before stacking got its teeth in and it was good because i could damp any sub cap ship to below my piont range, but that was pre stacking on damps and i still used 4!
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2010.03.05 16:28:00 - [223] Originally by: Dr Fighter Im a competent pilot Originally by: Dr Fighter I do not fit TDs even to bonused ships (curse for example) Originally by: Dr Fighter Yes a solo arazu might be able to kill somthing from 50km thats defenceless because it doesnt have the speed or the lock range. If that were a rook or falcon the exact same could be achived at any range you wish, in complete safty. Only not with 100% chance.
Noisrevbus Caldari Breams Gone Wild	Posted - 2010.03.05 16:34:00 - [224] Since we seem to have a citation pyramid pie-lobbing thread going, i figured i'd single this one out, since among all the rabble it's the one that discuss the most logical scenarios: Originally by: Hirana Yoshida luckily scouting an enemy is so damn easy that you can tailor fit the ECM within a few minutes. That only applies if you can actually dock up and refit. That assumes you only fly in a region where you can dock up and refit. Refitting is always a bad argument, since that implies you can dock up and counter any ship or gang given time and resources. Originally by: "Hirana Yoshida" Even BS are recommended to use two ECCM so one on a BC does very little in actual use. Whatever recommendation your corp/alliance has is their preference, not fact. If you devote two BS midslots to ECCM that probably says more about the overperformance of the ship/gang you are in, than the performance of ECM ships today. RRBS are far more difficult to counter, force multiplicative and 'cowardly' to use in most situations. ECM happen to be one of very few ways to deal with RRBS. RRBS in lowsec is even worse /spit. Originally by: "Hirana Yoshida" Pray tell what gang has 8-10k alpha damage to project across 60-80km .. let me answer for you: snipers. So your solution is to lug around 3-4 sniper BS at all times? This is the most interesting misconception in your post, and the most pertinent topic in the thread. Yes do tell, what gang has 8-10k alpha? Most likely any gang, of any size. One of the most common ships in the game is the trusty HM Drake, with a potential alpha of 3k over 75km with reliable projection. In the past, that used to be a reason to bring an old mechanic Bomber or a Cerberus to a gang - projection of damage against LR Recons. Today those Recons operate within range of most mid ranged to LR fit Battlecruisers. The most commonly seen ship in the game. I've lost count of the amount of Falcons i've seen taken out with effective damage projection in small gang warfare. I'm pretty sure they're common even in lowsec roaming. Of course that involves actually roaming actively for PvP. Not humping gates and playing station games with RRBS. Originally by: "Hirana Yoshida" Because neuting does wonders against buffer/passive tanks using missiles/projectiles/drones. Oh, so you are a gate/station humper? Well, that wasn't very surprising to be honest. Passive PvP ships? Is that an attempt at humor? Maybe you should try some real small gang PvP instead of whining about 0.0 being blobby? Originally by: "Hirana Yoshida" Problem is that ECM is appears to be "balanced" for null-sec only. Once it is applied anywhere else it breaks everything and becomes a giant vacuum sucking the fun out of what can be the best damn PvP game-play on the market (small-gang PvP in case you are unaware). You speak of 'playing discarded cards' yet you keep comming back to how it ruins things out of blobfare, out of 0.0 and for small scale gangs. While all it seem to relate back to is stale, gate-hugging ***gotry, in short ranged onedimensional ships. That despite the fact that ECM commonly used by smaller gangs to engage larger blobs against overwhelming odds. In any 5-10 man small gang you should have the DPS and mobility to rush any well chosen primary target and take them out of the engagement. That you use that argument to insinuate some sort of blob mentality on behalf of the Tzar is quite amusing in itself, since by looking at his profile you can easily see that he has a history with some of the finest small gang 0.0 and lowsec roaming entities in the game. He has a documented history of fighting 10 vs Blob roaming PvP, while your arguments keep comming back to docking in stations to refit for countering hostile encounters. Laughable.
arbiter reformed Minmatar HIGHLAND RIM FriendsReunited	Posted - 2010.03.05 16:54:00 - [225] it was time six **ing years ago, its a ** mechanic for a fun killing ew, and omagawd ecm drones. Signature graphics that may only contain your character name, corporation logo, corporation or personal slogan or other text that is directly related to your in-game persona, or content directly related to Eve Online. All content must be in good taste.Applebabe
Susy Assulu Caldari Atomic Mexicans	Posted - 2010.03.05 17:19:00 - [226] Edited by: Susy Assulu on 05/03/2010 17:19:15 ECM on ships is not as much of a problem as ECM drones, ECM drones really are very annoying and very easy to get your hands on.
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2010.03.05 17:28:00 - [227] Originally by: Susy Assulu Edited by: Susy Assulu on 05/03/2010 17:19:15 ECM on ships is not as much of a problem as ECM drones, ECM drones really are very annoying and very easy to get your hands on. Yeah they miss too many times :(
Beltantis Torrence Groovy Guns	Posted - 2010.03.05 19:32:00 - [228] Originally by: Lili Lu Originally by: Commander Godsmack Originally by: DHB WildCat No ship should be able to completely lock down up to 8 ships. ECM disrupts lock on target ship(on a chance bases) So you cant "lock down " 8 other ships; can only disrupt 1 at a time, and I believe their success diminishes with each larger class ship you engage (frigate>BC>BS) As for even 5 ships that would mean 5 diff ECM modules at the same time - only like 1 ship that can pull that off (whatit called- something caldari criuser t2) It appears from your comments Commander you don't have sufficient experience. What DHB probably is saying is that a Scorpion with all mids crammed with jammers could conceivably take 8 enemy ships out of a fight. Obviously it would involve ideal circumstances. But still even without ideal circumstances it is not unusual for a Scorp to remove 4 enemy ships from a fight. The ability to lock a target is so central to performing almost any combat action in the game. A tracking disrupted enemy can still use drones, still rep a buddy, possibly swap a script in a tacking computer to compensate. A jammed is ship is worth ****all and either has to sit on thumb for the cycle and hope the next cycle is missed or warp out if not tackled. With 30% bonuses that next cycle is likely to be successful as well. I would favor a buff to eccm, and the introduction of a new skill called sensor integrity or something, that would provide more effective counters to what is now 30% per level ecm boats. Calling for a nerf on ecm will inevitably fail. CCP cannot seem to nerf ecm boats like they nerf other boats/mods (nos, damps, webs), and oh the whines that will come in this thread. And so far there has been no hint that the devs are considering any change to the mechanics of ecm. So the only thing that might work to remove the joy of thumb in ass syndrome in eve battles is a buff to eccm, and a new skill to train to limit the effectiveness of opposing ecm. It's more common that said scorp get's primaried and killed before being remotely useful to the fight.
Red Thunder tr0pa de elite Triumvirate.	Posted - 2010.03.05 20:28:00 - [229] I have to agree with wildcat, ecm does rather stand out a bit, however i think the solution is just to boost other EW types, make damps useful at last
Sprilk	Posted - 2010.03.05 21:03:00 - [230] Originally by: Amishe Edited by: Amishe on 01/03/2010 14:17:00 Edited by: Amishe on 01/03/2010 14:15:58 Right now I'm still angry over a fight I had 3 days ago - I'm even considering quitting EVE because of it. Here's the story: Me (Hurricane) and a friend (Vagabond) are sitting in a system when two guys jump in. A hurricane jumps close to a station and my friend engages him. I warp to them and engage the Hurricane in the fight and a moment later my Vagabond friend pops. The hurricane were in 40% of his armor (armorbuffered) with me at 100% of my shieldbuffer. I know he had a friend in system, so I speeded towards the Hurricane so I could kill him as fast as I could before help would arrive. Now, my opponent are going down hard, 10% armor while me pretty high with ~80% shieldbuffer and then his friend appear 60km from me: A falcon. The Hurricane had me scrambled, which leaves me at like 200m/s sitting there like a brick and had no chance to make it to the station and his Falcon friend jamming me. Okay, I endure the first 20 seconds of begin jammed.. and another 20 seconds... and another 20 seconds.. Poof goes my ship. So, even though my opponents Hurricane were 10-20 seconds away from popping, ECM leaves me to NOTHING. I couldn't warp, I couldn't control my drones, I couldn't shoot back - there was NOTHING I could do to counter this at all. It felt so friggin bad, where's the balance? The pilot flying the Falcon even said he were sorry for abusing ECM and said he wanted it nerfed himself. Now, yes, this is a whine - but sitting there for a minute not being able to do anything than slowboat really screwed the gaming experience for me. I haven't logged on EVE since this happened and I don't really feel the urge to play anymore. Goodbye. I have not read the whole thread but posted after this giberash... you were 2v1.. if he showed up i a lagistics cruiser you are equaly as done for... ecm did not kill you 2v1 did. 1+logistics of any kind(be that rr or ecm or whatever) should totaly dominate a single target... idealy if your friend was alive and it was a 2v2 he could have chaced after the falcon... but it was 2v1...
Sgt MaxFightmaster	Posted - 2010.03.05 21:05:00 - [231] The most legitimate argument I see against the current implementation is the 20s twiddle session. 3 ideas I heard or thought about: 1) reverse target painter. Messes with sig rad for targeting and damage. Allows multiple counters with target painters (helps all against one target) or eccm (helps one against all targets). Could also include an addition ECM device that lowers sig rad of wearer regardless of lock (helps one against all targeting one) 2) change cycle time. Lower it to 5 seconds and it won't break a lock in progress, but will break an active lock. Means agressors can get shots off but must be very Johnny on the spot to do so. Would be good to have auto-retargetting in place after lock is broken. 3) hard lock vs soft lock. Works the same as now but on success changes lock to a soft lock severely reducing damage. ECM is a brilliant idea, and definitely needs to stay, just needs some refinement.
Seb gg	Posted - 2010.03.06 11:25:00 - [232] This is probably a stupid idea, but maby ECM should be affected by sig radius, i.e, smaller sig = less effective at jamming, this coupled with the fact that small ships have crap sensor strength would make jamming fairly even across the board. wanna also point out i dont think this is only change they should get, but it might be nice to have aswel. seb gg
Dracoknight Strategic Syndicate Chain of Chaos	Posted - 2010.03.06 12:32:00 - [233] ECM is fine, go home! yours truly ECM pilot Draco ____________________ I wish my Thorax could use missiles...

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