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Jovialmadness	Posted - 2010.03.03 14:21:00 - [151] Edited by: Jovialmadness on 03/03/2010 14:21:49 Wildcat I'm gonna go out on a limb and laugh a bit here. I can only assume since you can't jam 150+ anymore with your alt and that you have to put him closer to the fight it's wearing you down abit. That or you have simply overused it's effectiveness and now feel it's time to alter it since it's so last year. That or you are getting butt hurt by them now trying to solo 30 man gangs. Bro your vids show plenty of proof you can handle 1-2 falcons on the field some of the time. Stop trying to murder fleets 20x your size with shuttle and this anguish will cease. I'm not saying you must conform to standard blob on blob pvp cause god knows I love solo pvp as well. Just be prepared for this crap blobbing cause that is the way it is. A single or even double eccm probably shouldn't make you invulnerable to 3+ falcons. I can only guess lastly that is what happened in all honesty. P.s. Keep cranking out the vids. P.s.s. I would have preferred that ccp originally made eccm stronger vs. ECM before the range decrease. I hate falcons so let me say that beforehand. Reducing their range AND reducing their effectiveness will be a pretty bad ner***e.
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.03.03 14:26:00 - [152] Originally by: Tarhim Will it be better if it worked somehow like outlined in those thread already? Breaks locking (but you can re-acquire immediately) and at the same renders your targeting/tracking ability nearly useless (percentage based penalties, for example)? End result being that it works pretty much the same but no thumb-twiddling, just shooting without effect. Would need to have a secondary effect other than just breaking locks, since that would flip the whole thing and make frigates with fast locks impossible to shake. Adding on effects currently tied to damps/TDs would indeed work, but then what to do with those unfortunate modules and ships that are now upstaged? Originally by: Zetakya If you want to completely redo the mechanic, then that's a different argument. In that case the two options that spring to mind are either slowing down, or randomly skipping the activation cycles of Hi- and offensive Mid-Slot modules. Something radical along those lines would be needed to avoid the scaling and other issues, yes. Another idea: Key-/mouse-clicks become jumbled for the duration, so that activating any module ends up actually activating/deactivating an entirely different one (click gun and suitcase cycles off, or inject and gun goes off .. probably wont work due to groupings and generally low number of active mods used these days, but 'meh'. It is not an easy riddle this one
Oriss Amarr	Posted - 2010.03.03 14:35:00 - [153] To all you that want an ECM nerf, just to quit whining: Cut duration and activation by half. This makes it so that if you have an 75% chance to jam, you don't statistically miss a lock for every 60 seconds a target stays jammed, but it is reduced to every 30 seconds. Statistically you stand a better chance of surviving if the target doesn't completely overwhelm your sensor strength. The issue with you whiners is you aren't looking at the statistics of a jam over time. You're seeing magical permalocks that aren't REALLY permalocks, it's just that statistically they should make three or four in a row, which ends up in you being jammed for a long, long time and dying before they lose a cycle. However, ECM cycles can't be too short, or that one cycle they miss becomes useless, because you have 5 seconds to do something. Also, ECM boats don't do jack besides ECM. Show me an ECM boat that can put out DPS similar to a DPS ship of the same class? They are gang ships. If a gang properly fits up with said ECM boats, THEY ARE PLAYING TO THE STRENGTHS OF THE MODULES. You guys are comparing it to fitting damps and having your entire gang use blasters. With Ewar, you have to play to the strengths of the ewar you're using. Sorry you lost your ships, please stop whining, ECM is fine and necessary as it is or RR will be the next whine thread. L2 counter, all that good stuff. Read previous posts on how to counter ECM in general, and if you say "WELL THEIR MATES HAVE ME webbed/scrammed/etc." then chances are that if their fleet didn't have ECM and just DPS, they would have alpha'd you anyways. inb4 u mad, because I mad. ECM whine makes me rage.
Dr Fighter	Posted - 2010.03.03 14:41:00 - [154] The ecm effect can be compared to 4 modules of any other EW in terms of effect, one dmap wont do much unless the target is a good distance away but 4 will basicly lock them down - equivilant to a single ecm doing its thing. so. easy tweak for a huge difference, one active ecm module on any single target at a time. One ship, one chance to jam, makes eccm live more upto its name too. Currently eccm is sort of undone by the multiply effect more than one ecm module, atm you have double your sensor strength wiht eccm but the jammer has X ecm modules ready to activate if the first fails.
Jobby Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2010.03.03 14:43:00 - [155] Originally by: Kapse Locke Originally by: Atreus Tac i see whine Fixed. Fixed.
Zetakya	Posted - 2010.03.03 14:45:00 - [156] Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Originally by: Zetakya If you want to completely redo the mechanic, then that's a different argument. In that case the two options that spring to mind are either slowing down, or randomly skipping the activation cycles of Hi- and offensive Mid-Slot modules. Something radical along those lines would be needed to avoid the scaling and other issues, yes. Another idea: Key-/mouse-clicks become jumbled for the duration, so that activating any module ends up actually activating/deactivating an entirely different one (click gun and suitcase cycles off, or inject and gun goes off .. probably wont work due to groupings and generally low number of active mods used these days, but 'meh'. It is not an easy riddle this one I'm not a fan of any mechanic that relies on misdirection, however formed, because it would be too easily bypassed into pointlessness. As I say, I would prefer a mechanism that favoured good timing, awareness on the part of the ECM pilot, and penalties for continual running to encourage ECM to be used as a "get this off me now" rather than a "haha you're useless for the whole fight" If an ECM pilot had a fairly good chance at being able to disrupt the operation of a tackler holding points on a BS for a short duration only, then it would become a matter of communication, timing and skillful judgement to do so at the appropriate moment to get the under-fire ship free.
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2010.03.03 15:56:00 - [157] Originally by: Dr Fighter The ecm effect can be compared to 4 modules of any other EW in terms of effect Lies... When im 23k from target in my arbi, it takes 1 td to avoid almost all dps from scorch L... Arazu can point from 48k - guess how much damps it take to get bc under 40k targeting range? Originally by: Dr Fighter but 4 will basicly lock them down - equivilant to a single ecm doing its thing Ecm is chance based.
Dr Fighter	Posted - 2010.03.03 16:17:00 - [158] Originally by: Lugalzagezi666 Originally by: Dr Fighter The ecm effect can be compared to 4 modules of any other EW in terms of effect Lies... When im 23k from target in my arbi, it takes 1 td to avoid almost all dps from scorch L... Arazu can point from 48k - guess how much damps it take to get bc under 40k targeting range? Originally by: Dr Fighter but 4 will basicly lock them down - equivilant to a single ecm doing its thing Ecm is chance based. so what, a single light ecm drone gets one lucky hit and the target is fully jammed for 20 seconds. Im talking about the effect of ecm, i know its chance based, but the chances are pretty good on most targets and if it does fail theres another full strength ECM to have a try and the odds that this one works where the last one didnt are better than the first. Im comparing damps to the effect of ecm, 4 damps makes almost any ship unsable to a similar degree. i know that at max range one damp will be 'effective' because the target cant lock the attacker wiht the damp, but it cam lock anything else thats closer - unlike ecm.
Emily Jean Minmatar The Mongols	Posted - 2010.03.03 16:24:00 - [159] more cry baby whine threads... WoW has kids EvE has Cry Babies
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2010.03.03 16:46:00 - [160] Originally by: Dr Fighter so what, a single light ecm drone gets one lucky hit and the target is fully jammed for 20 seconds Or they dont get lucky hit and you die... yes, its random. Originally by: Dr Fighter the chances are pretty good on most targets Define 'pretty good.' You do realize that if you fit wrong racial ecm you will fail 'pretty bad?' Btw its the same with damps or tds - smaller ships - low sensor strenght/low targeting range/low optimal and falloff. - bigger ships - higher sensor strenght/targeting range/optimal and falloff. Originally by: Dr Fighter if it does fail theres another full strength ECM to have a try and the odds that this one works where the last one didnt are better than the first. No, chance is same for 2nd, 3rd etc. ecm. Originally by: Dr Fighter 4 damps makes almost any ship unsable to a similar degree. i know that at max range one damp will be 'effective' because the target cant lock the attacker wiht the damp, but it cam lock anything else thats closer - unlike ecm. So? You are not competent to use advantage of damps /= always works/ and thats why you are complaining about ecm? Why would you use 4 damps on single target when its already out of fight /and tackled/ and only thing you need to do is to keep your gang 40k from it. And you can use other damps to cut targeting range of other ships... anyone talking about focusing fire? Btw damps have other uses too - if you think its easy to jam eccmed logi or recon /you can overheat eccm btw/, you are wrong - damps can do that easily /there goes 3x lst from scimi zooming around or evil falcon uncloaking at 80.../.
DHB WildCat Flash Over. WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.03.03 17:17:00 - [161] My main reason for posting this thread. I cant get any fights anymore at ALL! I take one 1 ship and my falcon alt to a system to fight 10 or more. They run away. So stop using a falcon right! I **ing cant!!!! Because everyone and their moms use them. If I dont bring one; my ship is perma jammed, and if you dont think perma jamming isnt real then you dont ing know this game! So I bring my alt to counter their jammers. Well now that I have a jamming ship gangs outnumbering me refuse to fight me because the falcon or any jamming ship for that matter is so ing powerful that it will tkae out several ships and PERMA JAM all of them! Level 5 skills allow this! So you all that think you know anything about this game and think that ECM is not broken. I hate it! I dont want to ING USE IT! But in a game where everyone has at least 4 in their gangs, you have to bring your own. It is broken! WildCat Oh and Rule of the Bone whatever up yours this is the original you *got.
Vrabac Zawa's Fan Club	Posted - 2010.03.03 17:21:00 - [162] Originally by: DHB WildCat My main reason for posting this thread. I cant get any fights anymore at ALL! I take one 1 ship and my falcon alt to a system to fight 10 or more. They run away. So stop using a falcon right! I **ing cant!!!! Because everyone and their moms use them. If I dont bring one; my ship is perma jammed, and if you dont think perma jamming isnt real then you dont ing know this game! So I bring my alt to counter their jammers. Well now that I have a jamming ship gangs outnumbering me refuse to fight me because the falcon or any jamming ship for that matter is so ing powerful that it will tkae out several ships and PERMA JAM all of them! Level 5 skills allow this! So you all that think you know anything about this game and think that ECM is not broken. I hate it! I dont want to ING USE IT! But in a game where everyone has at least 4 in their gangs, you have to bring your own. It is broken! WildCat Oh and Rule of the Bone whatever up yours this is the original you *got. In essence you are right, however there will always be too many people arguing that jammed ship can still move, bump, tank, rotate view, browse the internet or what not so gl with that. I just fit eccm. It doesn't help all that much ofc, but who cares I can alt tab and watch youtube or I can still have my DC active plus my drones are probably doing something too, it's not like ECM is op, it's fine, adapt or die, you can still bump and tank and... er, be there.
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2010.03.03 17:24:00 - [163] Originally by: DHB WildCat ... So you are expecting ppl to warp right on top of you and get massacred by your 3-10b ship /+ implants/ and complain if they use ecm to compensate their weaker ships...
Vrabac Zawa's Fan Club	Posted - 2010.03.03 17:27:00 - [164] Or people arguing that ECM compensates for expensive fits.
Jovialmadness	Posted - 2010.03.03 17:30:00 - [165] Edited by: Jovialmadness on 03/03/2010 17:33:22 Edited by: Jovialmadness on 03/03/2010 17:31:20 Dammit wildcat do you not watch your own vids? Most people know you enough now to know you are an exceptional case when discussing pvp. You aren't any better than any other decent pvp'r but you outfit your ships heavily and you use very good tactics/exploit soon to be nerfed options(no offense here but it is true). Now saying all that and having placed your fights(as awesome as they are) for the world to see I think you are making a slight misjudgement. Do you not think that people might know who you are and are making assumptions about what kind of evil sh!t you are going to unleash on them instead of falcons being at fault? Just food for thought.
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2010.03.03 17:53:00 - [166] Originally by: Vrabac Or people arguing that ECM compensates for expensive fits. Eh? Should ppl just warp on him 1 by 1 and suicide? Why shouldnt be bs sized ship 'blobbed to hell' when its flying in enemy territory and why shouldnt 'the blob' protect its members with ecm? Especially when pilot is known for flying uberpimp ships... 1 ships takes another from fight - easy, you can tank, you can move, you can jump, i have no problem with this. And believe it or not, most ppl here are not complaining about that. They dont like that 1 ecm ship can lock down more than 1 ship completely /sometimes it can, sometimes not - example : good intel, racial jammers match targets = win or : bad intel, jammers dont match targets = massive fail/. Except wildcat ofc... Hes complaining about ecm while using his own ecm ship - i bet he would use his falcon the second his tank starts failing, even if there were no enemy ecm 10 jumps around.
Angelicus Doctor	Posted - 2010.03.03 18:43:00 - [167] There was this one time. I had a Rook because I heard that ECM pwns everything in eve and there is no counters and it perma locks everything it can target, and 7 racial jammers, but - like - this dude was in a Lachesis. And - the Lachesis locks 4% faster than a Rook, and, the Rook has a bigger sig radius than a Lachesis. So - this dude completely locked my targeting range to under 35km. But because the Rook is awesome, it doesn't have a secondary bonus like the Lachesis, and this dude, then used his secondary bonus and 48km warp disruptors. Then - this guy's friends showed up and blew up my ship because he had two points on me. Will CCP give me a refund because this was not right?
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.03.03 18:58:00 - [168] Originally by: Angelicus Doctor Will CCP give me a refund because this was not right? Doubtful since you were outmanoeuvred. You used a gang/fleet fit when out solo. Same happens to a fleet-sniper that jumps into anything short of a civilian mod fitted noob ship Go close when solo'ing in the Rook .. it has the 2nd highest (non lol-EFT fits) damage potential of all the recons when using HAMs and can use an ECM/Buffer blend as tank.
Angelicus Doctor	Posted - 2010.03.03 19:44:00 - [169] Originally by: Vrabac I just fit eccm. It doesn't help all that much ofc, but who cares I can alt tab and watch youtube or I can still have my DC active plus my drones are probably doing something too, it's not like ECM is op, it's fine, adapt or die, you can still bump and tank and... er, be there. Isn't that what most people do as Caldari dps bounces off their armor?
Terianna Eri Amarr Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn	Posted - 2010.03.03 19:46:00 - [170] Originally by: Oriss Amarr Show me an ECM boat that can put out DPS similar to a DPS ship of the same class? Rook has similar damage to a Cerberus and NONE of the EWAR boats have DPS approaching that of the pure DPS ships. In fact I think the Rook is the highest DPS recon in a standard fit. P.S. Balance issues aside ECM is a terrible mechanic anyway. It's boring and non-interactive. ________________ Originally by: CCP Incognito PS the "time to P*nis" is the shortest time recorded in human history. :)
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2010.03.03 19:55:00 - [171] Originally by: Terianna Eri Rook has similar damage to a Cerberus and NONE of the EWAR boats have DPS approaching that of the pure DPS ships. In fact I think the Rook is the highest DPS recon in a standard fit. Must be a pretty interesting "standard" fit. In a full gank fit (3x BCU, HAMs), the Rook exceeds the dps of the most damaging Recon, the Huginn, in its standard configuration. And the Huginn will still be able to use its ewar to full effect, the Rook wont.
Oriss Amarr	Posted - 2010.03.03 19:57:00 - [172] Now for our segment into the psycological reasons why the whiners whine. Let's instead of talking about Ewar, talk about coitus. There are three ways to prevent unwanted things happening during coitus: 1) Vasectomy- Compare this to a tracking disruptor. You're shooting blanks, but at least you're doing something. 2) Protection- This is the Sensor Damp of the reproductive world. It reduces the overall effect, but again, you feel like you're getting something done. 3) Abstinence- This is the big bad ECM. It accomplishes the same thing as the other two, but it is just "unfun." Whiners whine because they are being forced into digital abstinence and can't get their big guns off.
Angelicus Doctor	Posted - 2010.03.03 19:59:00 - [173] Originally by: DHB WildCat So ** you all that think you know anything about this game and think that ECM is not broken. I hate it! I dont want to **ING USE IT! But in a game where everyone has at least 4 in their gangs, you have to bring your own. It is broken! I know what you mean. It sucks, all these gangs roaming around eve always have to bring some interceptor or some tackler. I mean, why can't we all just roam around in battleships, target and shoot and the one with the most dps wins? Damnit, all of Eve is broken. I mean, crap, why is it all these Caldari ships ad mods for Em damage when I use lasers! Heck, why can't we all use the same turrets?
Vrabac Zawa's Fan Club	Posted - 2010.03.03 20:03:00 - [174] Edited by: Vrabac on 03/03/2010 20:05:50 Originally by: Angelicus Doctor Originally by: Vrabac I just fit eccm. It doesn't help all that much ofc, but who cares I can alt tab and watch youtube or I can still have my DC active plus my drones are probably doing something too, it's not like ECM is op, it's fine, adapt or die, you can still bump and tank and... er, be there. Isn't that what most people do as Caldari dps bounces off their armor? Joking or what? Originally by: Angelicus Doctor Originally by: DHB WildCat So ** you all that think you know anything about this game and think that ECM is not broken. I hate it! I dont want to **ING USE IT! But in a game where everyone has at least 4 in their gangs, you have to bring your own. It is broken! I know what you mean. It sucks, all these gangs roaming around eve always have to bring some interceptor or some tackler. I mean, why can't we all just roam around in battleships, target and shoot and the one with the most dps wins? Damnit, all of Eve is broken. I mean, crap, why is it all these Caldari ships ad mods for Em damage when I use lasers! Heck, why can't we all use the same turrets? Guess you're not joking, it's genuine.
Oriss Amarr	Posted - 2010.03.03 20:21:00 - [175] Originally by: Terianna Eri Originally by: Oriss Amarr Show me an ECM boat that can put out DPS similar to a DPS ship of the same class? Rook has similar damage to a Cerberus and NONE of the EWAR boats have DPS approaching that of the pure DPS ships. In fact I think the Rook is the highest DPS recon in a standard fit. P.S. Balance issues aside ECM is a terrible mechanic anyway. It's boring and non-interactive. That's the POINT. The balancing issue with EWAR is they have to take one entire ship to the fight that is going to throw **** poor DPS to the fight, to take out a ship or two with EWAR. You really missed the point there kiddo. Also, "non-interactive" and "boring" LOL. Try playing against a stunlock rogue in WOW, or play Magic: The Gathering and play against a control deck. Anything that CONTROLS another player makes that other player feel like they can't play the game, when in reality a skilled player can. Saying those two words shows how lacking of skill you are.
Yakov Draken Minmatar Tides Of War	Posted - 2010.03.03 20:27:00 - [176] Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Originally by: Yakov Draken ECM remains killjoy. It is however counterable.... Impressive, you managed to not read the thread as a whole but also a post made a few hours prior to yours Are you really stupid? I'm just asking because your response was really dumb - y'now that smug "I flame without understanding" dumb. I try to respond to people with polite, coherent posts, but your post is just too stupid.
Joe Censored Unknown-Entity Black Star Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.03 21:01:00 - [177] Originally by: Oriss Amarr Also, ECM boats don't do jack besides ECM. Show me an ECM boat that can put out DPS similar to a DPS ship of the same class? I don't want to see changes to ECM, but I do have to take pause to this comment. My Rook fit will **** your face Last night a goonie learned the wisdom of the scout alt http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=9642174 Damn my rook only got 2nd on this mail, what's more embarrassing is my lack of drone skillz http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=9620499 Falcons are a delicacy for Rook pilots http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=9625521 Oh, and this one from last night is definitely for lolz! http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=9642772
Oriss Amarr	Posted - 2010.03.03 21:10:00 - [178] Edited by: Oriss Amarr on 03/03/2010 21:11:48 Originally by: Joe Censored Originally by: Oriss Amarr Also, ECM boats don't do jack besides ECM. Show me an ECM boat that can put out DPS similar to a DPS ship of the same class? I don't want to see changes to ECM, but I do have to take pause to this comment. My Rook fit will **** your face Last night a goonie learned the wisdom of the scout alt http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=9642174 Damn my rook only got 2nd on this mail, what's more embarrassing is my lack of drone skillz http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=9620499 Falcons are a delicacy for Rook pilots http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=9625521 Oh, and this one from last night is definitely for lolz! http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=9642772 Slight Rook damage nerf is in order, I agree with that. However, that doesn't change the fact that 9028930983270987402374028973490234.3 of the ECM whiners want the entire mechanic flipped inside out and made about as useless as the Dramiel after the inevitable nerf.
Dimitrios Ypsilanti	Posted - 2010.03.03 22:08:00 - [179] Don't nerf ECM. Boost FoF Missiles. Seems that if this were a real problem people would be fitting ECCM as a matter of course. As it is I almost never consider it when I'm fitting a ship. It really only shows up as a problem in small gang situations. If you're in a fleet, there are too many ways around it. If you're in 1 on 1 you run away when confronted with a Falcon / Rook / Scorpion and you don't like your chances. We will know when balance is restored when we start hearing from Falcon pilots complaining that they got taken down by a couple of rounds of FoF missiles because they effectively have no tank.
stoicfaux	Posted - 2010.03.03 22:42:00 - [180] Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Yes, it is binary in nature, but where is it written that has to be case? Why shouldn't it be more similar to other forms of eWar in application/power? We are (or I am anyway) trying to figure out an alternative where ECM isn't OP as sizes go down and a different effect for the target of the ECM (to get rid of the thumb-twiddle crap). I. ECM is affected by range using a non-linear curve You could reduce the ECM fuzziness based on range. Make it a curve instead of a linear effect. The closer you are to the target, the less effective ECM is. This would give you the ability to use maneuver to negate ECM. If you're right next to the target, it shouldn't be that hard to aim over iron sights. II. Just make it so that ECM reduces target sig size ECM a) reduces your sensor strength by a percentage, thus creating longer lock times and either b.1) reduces all your targets' sig size by some percentage which thus reduces the damage of your guns and missiles. ECM causes fuzzier targeting solutions. or b.2) increases the Signature Resolution on your guns and Explosion Radius on your missiles. ECM causes fuzzier targeting solutions. This would c) let you do some damage instead of no damage, and d) would let you use target painters and ECCM as a way to counter (or partially offset) the ECM (TPs increase target sig size, and ECCM increases sensor strength to reduce ECM's percentage effectiveness.) But would e) make ECM somewhat useless when smaller weapons are firing at large targets. (ECM'ing my rocket launcher doesn't really make hitting that battleship any harder.) ----- "Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you! -- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"

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