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Zilberfrid	Posted - 2010.03.02 17:50:00 - [121] You're forgetting a cap booster
moohoo	Posted - 2010.03.02 17:59:00 - [122] Originally by: Zilberfrid You're forgetting a cap booster yep, sorry :(
Zetakya	Posted - 2010.03.02 18:18:00 - [123] Edited by: Zetakya on 02/03/2010 18:21:39 Fundamentally, the problem people have with it is not its effectiveness, but the manner in which it is effective. Being essentially unable to fight (blah blah blah FOF) is not a very fun game mechanic. It is also notable that ECM is the only EWar that is effective (almost) no matter who it is aimed at - unlike all the other forms of EWar, which have their choice targets, but are almost 100% ineffective against equally large and popular types of targets. It also tends to get spammed a lot more, especially in small unit encounters, because ECM is better than needing to tank damage, and because Caldari ships have oodles of mid slots. There's also no stacking penalty associated with ECM in the same way as there is for other forms of EWar. This last is (IMO) the real breaker. It is possible that a system of diminishing returns for using multiple ECM modules simultaneously would work? You can jam one target very well, or you can jam two pretty well, or you can jam three fairly well... A similar system could work for dealing with the gameplay issues. If being jammed for one cycle led to your probability of being Jammed going down on the next cycle (as your sensors compensate for the interference), then ECM piloting would be a matter of skillful timing to ensure the jam was in place at the critical moment, and frustrating perma-jam moments would be reduced. But hey, what do I know? I pilot an ECM bird, it can be left as it stands for my money.
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2010.03.02 19:01:00 - [124] Originally by: Zetakya A similar system could work for dealing with the gameplay issues. If being jammed for one cycle led to your probability of being Jammed going down on the next cycle (as your sensors compensate for the interference), then ECM piloting would be a matter of skillful timing to ensure the jam was in place at the critical moment, and frustrating perma-jam moments would be reduced. The same should apply to tracking disruption or energy destabilization really, it would prevent the frustration of never being able to use your turrets, or being capped out permanently. Those should also be chance based, so they dont always work, that makes for boring gameplay.
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2010.03.02 19:04:00 - [125] Originally by: Omara Otawan ... Yes, so there will be no other possibility to ged rid of dualprop nos tacklers than ecm drones.
Mag's the united Negative Ten.	Posted - 2010.03.02 19:18:00 - [126] Man you keep coming up with the good ideas, much like this one. It's good to know you're so clued up, on game mechanics.
Denuo Secus	Posted - 2010.03.02 19:31:00 - [127] Removing ECM (or any ewar) would just lead to more "Tank + Gank" which leads to blobbing. Fleet A does twice the damage of fleet B? Solution: just bring more ships...ECM and other ewar can break this boring cycle. Not to speak it's the best (if not only) chance for smaller fleets to win or survive when outnumbered. There must be any mechanic which allows the smaller one to beat the bigger one imo. Everything else is frustrating and boring. Though I agree ECM should be altered a bit. Make it less chance based. Tactics and not fortuity should decide over victory. Then ECCM sould have a second use. I also like the "reduce jam cycle not jam chance" idea. Much more relieable for both sides. And @"ECCM costs me one valuable slot" or "No frig has slots for ECCM": you just need one ship in your gang to get rid of ECM. Unfair? No, your opponent sacrificed one valuable ship just for ECM - it cannot do anything more really. Your ECCM boat should be nice for other duties as well. - Save the missiles from the glowing blob :S R ----------> * A --------> * V --------> * E -------> * N ---------> *
Angelicus Doctor	Posted - 2010.03.02 19:36:00 - [128] Is this the whine thread, or should I start a new thread for the time I lost a ship because several people used sensor dampeners on me and I was able to target everyone out to 4km.
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2010.03.02 19:42:00 - [129] Originally by: Lugalzagezi666 Originally by: Omara Otawan ... Yes, so there will be no other possibility to ged rid of dualprop nos tacklers than ecm drones. You clearly caught the sarcasm in my post well
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2010.03.02 19:47:00 - [130] Originally by: Omara Otawan Originally by: Lugalzagezi666 Originally by: Omara Otawan ... Yes, so there will be no other possibility to ged rid of dualprop nos tacklers than ecm drones. You clearly caught the sarcasm in my post well
catheleen	Posted - 2010.03.02 20:40:00 - [131] Edited by: catheleen on 02/03/2010 20:43:01 It may be an idea to design the ECM system to be effective proportionally to the use of other slots. If you were to use enhancement modules in the same way, proportionally as drones have range compliments that fit in high and mid slots, this would/could be useful as a balancing mechanism. So use slot utilisation numbers from Hi-Lo to increase the strength but compromise other ship integrity aspects, including range and locking speed? Edit: Oh! and so disappointed in Sokratesz contribution
Kessiaan Minmatar Vagrants Inc	Posted - 2010.03.02 22:20:00 - [132] Originally by: Denuo Secus Removing ECM (or any ewar) would just lead to more "Tank + Gank" which leads to blobbing. Fleet A does twice the damage of fleet B? Solution: just bring more ships...ECM and other ewar can break this boring cycle. Not to speak it's the best (if not only) chance for smaller fleets to win or survive when outnumbered. There must be any mechanic which allows the smaller one to beat the bigger one imo. Everything else is frustrating and boring. Though I agree ECM should be altered a bit. Make it less chance based. Tactics and not fortuity should decide over victory. Then ECCM sould have a second use. I also like the "reduce jam cycle not jam chance" idea. Much more relieable for both sides. And @"ECCM costs me one valuable slot" or "No frig has slots for ECCM": you just need one ship in your gang to get rid of ECM. Unfair? No, your opponent sacrificed one valuable ship just for ECM - it cannot do anything more really. Your ECCM boat should be nice for other duties as well. This is the crux of the problem with ECM. In fleets it's fine for reasons that have been discussed to death a hundred times already. ECM balance issues really only affect very small gangs (less than 5), particularly if both fleets are sub-BS.
RuleoftheBone Minmatar The Littlest Hobos Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2010.03.03 00:10:00 - [133] Is the OP still the original owner of DHB W? No friggin way
Yakov Draken Minmatar Tides Of War	Posted - 2010.03.03 00:26:00 - [134] ECM remains killjoy. It is however counterable - it is just the consequence is a big change in gang setups and a limiting of game choices. An armor tanking RR gang is obviously very vulnerable to ECM so fit a ECCM on every ship and be ready to overheat it, two for logi-domis, and make sure you have sentry drones to kill the Falcons with. It works but it does reduce options.
Joe Censored Unknown-Entity Black Star Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.03 00:28:00 - [135] Edited by: Joe Censored on 03/03/2010 00:28:50 I lost a ship once because a lot of lasers hit me all at once. There should be a stacking penalty for lasers cause flying around in my pod really takes the fun out of the game. Please fix lasers so I don't have to come up with any counter on my own for them, or do any thinking in this game other than target primary / press F1 (This is what all you whiners sound like)
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.03.03 07:27:00 - [136] Originally by: Yakov Draken ECM remains killjoy. It is however counterable.... Impressive, you managed to not read the thread as a whole but also a post made a few hours prior to yours Originally by: Kessiaan This is the crux of the problem with ECM. In fleets it's fine for reasons that have been discussed to death a hundred times already. ECM balance issues really only affect very small gangs (less than 5), particularly if both fleets are sub-BS. Exactly. It goes from being an annoyance to game-breaking. I would even go so far as to double the number so that small gangs <10, particularly if sub-BS. That fact is the Gordian knot, solve it (without breaking the other end of scale) and the rest is easy. Originally by: RuleoftheBone Is the OP still the original owner of DHB W? No friggin way Does it matter if the question/concern posed is valid? If it does matter then the problem is with you and not him nor his question .. elitism is an ugly thing, more so in discussion fora.
Insa Rexion Minmatar Fumar Puede Matar	Posted - 2010.03.03 07:44:00 - [137] Originally by: Theac Osiris Edited by: Theac Osiris on 01/03/2010 00:48:01 Would you like your whine broiled or grilled? #1) ECM does not "completely take a ship out of the fight". FoF missiles and drones still work, the ship can still maneuver, and most importantly, it's still alive. #2) No ship can completely lock down up to 8 ships. The only ship that has that many bonused ECM slots is the Scorpion, and you'd have to be crazy not to fit at least an MWD. Furthermore, it's chance based, so unless you're facing a swarm of frigates (against whom the effect of ECM is diminished since you're wasting your mods on weak, cheap ships), you are not going to be able to completely lock down every target. #3) Most ECM ships are paper-thin. If a DPS ship gets on top of them, they're generally toast. #4) ECM ships, surprisingly enough, can be ECMed, or sensor damped so hard they have to venture dangerously close into the enemy. If you're really having trouble with them, a flight of ECM drones can easily break their cycle and give you a chance to blow them to shreds. #5) ECM ships are to be pre-emptively considered "primary" #6) ECM will generally cause panic and disarray in an uncoordinated, unprepared fleet, but most good FCs will be able to neutralize it as a threat. A certain amount of irony contained in this post since ECM is banned from red vs blue for most of the reasons stated in the OP As for the OP, I kinda agree it's still OP but perhaps not to the level he feels it is. For those who would argue that it's already been nerfed I would ask this... what is the first thing all FCs ask for after DPS (ECM), what ships are most likely to be primaried in almost any engagement ? (ECM) What is the most common form of ewar seen in Eve combat today ? (ECM, by quite a margin) In other words, the "balancing" has done little to change the reliance upon ECM as a powerful combat tactic simply because it is still so very very good. When we see target painting used as much as ECM we will know balance has been achieved, but really I'm not holding my breath. That said, it's not the end of the world, there are counters and one can ue it oneself, it's just the prevalence of it as a tactic I'd like to see change for reasons of variety more than anything -------------------------------------------- well mannered ****ole
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2010.03.03 07:45:00 - [138] Edited by: Naomi Knight on 03/03/2010 07:54:48 Edited by: Naomi Knight on 03/03/2010 07:53:55 Edited by: Naomi Knight on 03/03/2010 07:52:29 Originally by: Joe Censored Edited by: Joe Censored on 03/03/2010 00:28:50 I lost a ship once because a lot of lasers hit me all at once. There should be a stacking penalty for lasers cause flying around in my pod really takes the fun out of the game. Please fix lasers so I don't have to come up with any counter on my own for them, or do any thinking in this game other than target primary / press F1 (This is what all you whiners sound like) Yeah Fix lasers first ^^ Originally by: Insa Rexion A certain amount of irony contained in this post since ECM is banned from red vs blue for most of the reasons stated in the OP Laughing As for the OP, I kinda agree it's still OP but perhaps not to the level he feels it is. For those who would argue that it's already been nerfed I would ask this... what is the first thing all FCs ask for after DPS (ECM), what ships are most likely to be primaried in almost any engagement ? (ECM) What is the most common form of ewar seen in Eve combat today ? (ECM, by quite a margin) In other words, the "balancing" has done little to change the reliance upon ECM as a powerful combat tactic simply because it is still so very very good. When we see target painting used as much as ECM we will know balance has been achieved, but really I'm not holding my breath. That said, it's not the end of the world, there are counters and one can ue it oneself, it's just the prevalence of it as a tactic I'd like to see change for reasons of variety more than anything Who cares about some stupid blue vs reds thingy? So because in alli tournaments players cant warp out should we nerf warping? what is the first thing all FCs ask for after DPS (TACKLER/LOGI) what ships are most likely to be primaried in almost any engagement ? (TACKLERS/LOGIS/expensive stuff ) What is the most common form of ewar seen in Eve combat today ? (Disruptors/Scramblers by quite a margin oh and lasers :P) In other words, the "balancing" has done little to change the stupidity of ECM victims simply because they are that stupid and lazy. When we see target painting used as much as ECM we will know we are fighting against noobz or ECM is just completly useless, but really I'm not holding my breath. That said, it's not the end of the world, there are counters and one can ue it oneself, it's just the prevalence of it as a tactic called WHINING it usually works if we blob the forums.
Thirzarr	Posted - 2010.03.03 08:53:00 - [139] There is basically only one problem with ECM: Small gang pvp. If one side has ECM and one side doesnt, the outcome is predefined. If the "has-none" side gets lucky, they can warp. shrugs So it's a little like bringing guns/launchers, I guess.
Dibsi Dei Genos Occidere Sev3rance	Posted - 2010.03.03 09:23:00 - [140] On small engagements ecm is indeed overpowered.
Dr Fighter	Posted - 2010.03.03 09:38:00 - [141] Edited by: Dr Fighter on 03/03/2010 09:38:44 ECM was banned from several tournys in the past too, simply because its very dull to watch for everyone, same reason its banned from RvB its pre defined dull broken crap. If ccp makes a decision to leave ecm out, that they must agree that it doesnt make good viewing .... how much less fun is it actually being the guy who cant do anything dieing slowly and painfully.
Tarhim Caldari	Posted - 2010.03.03 10:59:00 - [142] Originally by: Dr Fighter how much less fun is it actually being the guy who cant do anything dieing slowly and painfully. Ban scrams and webs now!
Dr Fighter	Posted - 2010.03.03 11:03:00 - [143] Originally by: Tarhim Originally by: Dr Fighter how much less fun is it actually being the guy who cant do anything dieing slowly and painfully. Ban scrams and webs now! i mean he cant do anything, being webbed and scrammed doesnt stop you from doing the same back and blowing them to hell with all available weapon systems.
Tarhim Caldari	Posted - 2010.03.03 11:51:00 - [144] Originally by: Dr Fighter i mean he cant do anything, being webbed and scrammed doesnt stop you from doing the same back and blowing them to hell with all available weapon systems. Unless someone else neuts you, shoots you and wtfpwns you in general. Jamming doesn't really incapacites you totally, you can fly out of range or warp out.
Zetakya	Posted - 2010.03.03 12:04:00 - [145] Jamming though is very much an all-or-nothing proposition. Hence why it needs different balancing mechanics compared to the much more variable scale of effectiveness for everything else.
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.03.03 12:24:00 - [146] Originally by: Tarhim Unless someone else neuts you, shoots you and wtfpwns you in general. Jamming doesn't really incapacites you totally, you can fly out of range or warp out. Yea, because jamming ships are the ultimate solo-ships and are never used with 1+ other ships Do you have any idea how long it takes to "fly out of range" of a jammer? Even if you do get out of range, you will automatically be out of range of anything and everyone else making it a pretty pointless move to begin with. Originally by: Zetakya Jamming though is very much an all-or-nothing proposition. Hence why it needs different balancing mechanics compared to the much more variable scale of effectiveness for everything else. Yes, it is binary in nature, but where is it written that has to be case? Why shouldn't it be more similar to other forms of eWar in application/power? We are (or I am anyway) trying to figure out an alternative where ECM isn't OP as sizes go down and a different effect for the target of the ECM (to get rid of the thumb-twiddle crap). Ships meant for ECM can always be tweaked to accommodate any "loss of power" that a given module/mechanic change imposes so not a big obstacle.
Tarhim Caldari	Posted - 2010.03.03 13:07:00 - [147] Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Yea, because jamming ships are the ultimate solo-ships and are never used with 1+ other ships Well, then you can get pwned by gang. I'm absolutely sure that never happens without ECM :) Quote: Do you have any idea how long it takes to "fly out of range" of a jammer? Roughly. If you are not webbed, it would be faster than flying out of disruptor range. I think. Quote: Even if you do get out of range, you will automatically be out of range of anything and everyone else making it a pretty pointless move to begin with. You are, however, alive. Always a plus. :) Quote: We are (or I am anyway) trying to figure out an alternative where ECM isn't OP as sizes go down and a different effect for the target of the ECM (to get rid of the thumb-twiddle crap). Will it be better if it worked somehow like outlined in those thread already? Breaks locking (but you can re-acquire immediately) and at the same renders your targeting/tracking ability nearly useless (percentage based penalties, for example)? End result being that it works pretty much the same but no thumb-twiddling, just shooting without effect.
Zetakya	Posted - 2010.03.03 13:14:00 - [148] Edited by: Zetakya on 03/03/2010 13:15:21 Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Originally by: Zetakya Jamming though is very much an all-or-nothing proposition. Hence why it needs different balancing mechanics compared to the much more variable scale of effectiveness for everything else. Yes, it is binary in nature, but where is it written that has to be case? Why shouldn't it be more similar to other forms of eWar in application/power? We are (or I am anyway) trying to figure out an alternative where ECM isn't OP as sizes go down and a different effect for the target of the ECM (to get rid of the thumb-twiddle crap). Ships meant for ECM can always be tweaked to accommodate any "loss of power" that a given module/mechanic change imposes so not a big obstacle. I take your point Hirana, but I was mainly addressing my post in reference to responses to my own earlier post. Sorry if that wasn't clear. If you want to completely redo the mechanic, then that's a different argument. In that case the two options that spring to mind are either slowing down, or randomly skipping the activation cycles of Hi- and offensive Mid-Slot modules.
Baneken Gallente Aseveljet	Posted - 2010.03.03 13:21:00 - [149] I was thinking of all ECM to work with the same principle as burst ECM's that is a one single burst -> wait -> wait -> burst and not a continuous jamming cycle like we have now. Increased cool down between bursts could be same as in burst ECM's that we have now.
Oriss Amarr	Posted - 2010.03.03 14:13:00 - [150] Originally by: Kirzath Edited by: Kirzath on 02/03/2010 00:43:04 I'll ask again, how am I supposed to counter this? Lord almighty you're an idiot. A pilot that managed to reasearch what you were flying, go fit racial jammers on the ship, and then catches you solo after you didn't detect his initial intel gathering and jams you and solo's you deserves the kill. The chance of a frigate running around with a full rack of racial jammers trying to pick on a single race of ships is unrealistic. If you fall victim to this, there were other opportunities to counter it before the fight even started. Also, if you're so scared of frigates, find friends with interceptors. Troll harder with your magical EFT.

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