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Bellum Eternus
Gallente
Death of Virtue
MeatSausage EXPRESS
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Posted - 2010.03.10 00:04:00 -
[1]
Yes, I know it's been discussed to death and I know that it's been brought up by the CSM to the devs and (from what I gathered from the minutes) they (the devs) recognize that it's an issue and will be looking to improve them. The point of this thread is to discuss how to improve them and hopefully shape the devs' design decisions.
The issue:
BlackOps are currently only worthwhile as a tool for bridging Stealth Bombers onto a target for quick ganks.
How to change this:
Let's examine what really makes a BlackOps special: It has a jumpdrive and can cyno past jumpgates, it can bridge ships in to Covert Cynos and it can fit a cloak without suffering a 30 second sensor recalibration penalty. Other than those three things, they're completely the same as any other battleship, and in most ways vastly inferior to other battleships. Do these benefits make up for the cost and lack of performance? Not at all.
As far as stealth and combat effectiveness goes, you can fit a cloak to a regular battleship and have the exact same functionality, save the recalibration penalty. Due to the fact that BlackOps suffer the same scan resolution penalty as normal battleships do when fitting a cloak they're no better off than a normal BS when it comes to gaining an advantage while fitting a cloak when attacking targets. The target is almost always gone before the BlackOps ship can lock it, even when using sensor boosters.
Further more, BlackOps don't have the grid or CPU, EHP and cap to be considered a BS. They're a glorified BC. For the skill requirements and materials required to produce them they should be as good as any Tier 1 battleship with respect to slot count, Grid, CPU etc.
To address the scan resolution issue: give BlackOps the special bonus of an increase in scan resolution when fitting a cloak. This bonus will be fixed such that when fitting a T2 cloak the scan resolution penalty will be zero, and when fitting faction cloaks there will actually be a scan resolution INCREASE. A negative penalty (bonus) if you will.
BlackOps haven't become the horribly overpowered killers that CCP had feared they would be. Indeed, they're basically useless as front line PVP ships. These are T2 BS, they should act like such. Not some emasculated bad joke of an oversized BC that can bridge bombers.
TL;DR:
Remove the cloaking scan res penalty, increase the grid/cpu and return EHP/cap to BS levels.
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Bellum Eternus
Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Tier 5 Battleships
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Cain m
Minmatar
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2010.03.10 00:24:00 -
[2]
This is GDB, F&I that way →→→
 Originally by: YouDoNotOwnSalvage
You do not in any way shape or form own salvage.
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xXxSatsujinxXx
Reaper Industries
Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2010.03.10 00:43:00 -
[3]
I personally don't see the issue. A group of 4-5 blackops are plenty enough to cause massive problems in an enemy home constellation. They aren't there to fight, they're there to gank careless people, and be gone before backup arrives. In that situation, you don't need to bridge bombers/recons around, you have all the dps you need.
Without having to fit the portal, fitting a decent tank/gank fit is pretty easy. So you just gotta make the choice - combat or portal. You can't do both realistically, which to me seems pretty reasonable.
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HeliosGal
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.03.10 02:02:00 -
[4]
solo not so good in a group of em quite powerful role specific
Signature - CCP what this game needs is more variance in PVE aspects and a little bit less PVP focus, more content more varied level 1-4 missions more than just 10 per faction high sec low sec and 00 |
Aralieus
Amarr
Rising Devils
Chain of Chaos
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Posted - 2010.03.10 04:18:00 -
[5]
or..or..give it a cov-ops cloak and bring cpu/power grid up to Tier 2 BS's. I want to train for a Redeemer soooooooooooooooo bad but currently there really is no point in it which makes me a very sad panda.
Fortune favors the bold!!! |
Garia666
Amarr
T.H.U.G L.I.F.E
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Posted - 2010.03.10 07:01:00 -
[6]
well i done some black ops gangs and its pretty doable now.. you dont have to watch for cyno jammed systems anymore. 1 black ops with 30 man sb gang can just be done.. with 1 covert ops hauler.. its expensive tough.. fuelwise
www.garia.net |
Neurotica Zeshi
Gallente
Worst Case Scenario.
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Posted - 2010.03.10 09:04:00 -
[7]
Theres a reason they have these penalties such as the scan res penalty, less dps and less EHP than a normal bs. Its so people like yourself cant just sit on a gate all day long with their Blackops and just decloak and gank whatever they feel like in relative safety whenever they want.
Blackops used correctly are good at what they do already. And the penalties they have keep them in line so as to not make them overpowered
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Kildan
Caldari
Zetatech
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Posted - 2010.03.10 11:46:00 -
[8]
This was one of the problems highlighted by players when black ops were introduced, however, during the black ops boost CCP improved the scan resolution of the ship line to compensate, effectively adding a built in sensor booster with a scan resolution script.
For example, a redeemer with a T2 cloak has a scan res of 102mm (Dread Guristas cloak - 124mm) whereas an armageddon without a cloak has a scan res of 110mm.
Furthermore, my armageddon only does 6% more damage than my redeemer if I drop the faction heat sinks for T2. Although the armageddon has 30% more tank, the redeemer has more options to pick its fights and escape.
Seems balanced to me, although more jump range would be nice.
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente
Death of Virtue
MeatSausage EXPRESS
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Posted - 2010.03.10 16:13:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Neurotica Zeshi
Theres a reason they have these penalties such as the scan res penalty, less dps and less EHP than a normal bs. Its so people like yourself cant just sit on a gate all day long with their Blackops and just decloak and gank whatever they feel like in relative safety whenever they want.
Blackops used correctly are good at what they do already. And the penalties they have keep them in line so as to not make them overpowered
Your post is exactly why the ships need to be buffed. Simply using them as a jump bridge for bombers is NOT good enough. And no, fixing the scan resolution issue won't make them OP "for people such as myself to sit at gates all day".
Hell, I'd forgo every other improvement as long as they fix the scan resolution penalty and give them very good lock speeds with a cloak equipped (like 250-300 scan res with a DG cloak fit).
FFS, they're exotic, highly specialized T2 BS and they suck. Very few people in the game use them. I can use all four and so far I've only bothered trying the Redeemer on TQ because the rest of them are so crappy, and the Redeemer is complete crap anyway. They don't do anything PVP wise that I can't accomplish with a regular BS with a cloak fitted to it. The only difference is the targeting delay of 30 seconds which makes zero difference if you're warping in from a safe spot to kill something. In all respects PVP-wise, a normal BS with cloak fitted out performs a BlackOps BS in every way. That is my point, and yes, it IS a problem.
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Bellum Eternus
Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Tier 5 Battleships
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Sith LordX
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Posted - 2010.03.10 16:34:00 -
[10]
These are T2 ships and should act like them. Their performance is lacking vs other T2 ships. T2 usoualy has double the spec of their T1 counterparts. This is not the case with a black ops. Lets compare a AF to a regular frigate. AF's have massive performance advantages double everything, EHP, cpu, pg, DPS, bonuses, and so on reflect being X2 more advanced then their T1 counterparts.
This is not so with a black ops like it is with a recon or a SB even. Even they have very powerful advantages that make them deadly for a T2 ship. A recon can practically outclass any T1 cruiser with their ewar and with their enhanced resistances they have better tanks. A curse can kill almost any ship that requires cap given enough time and the pilots skill and fitting. A curse can take down even the most powerful BS. If the curse pilot knows what he is doing.
A BS is not a counter to a BC, or is a BC to a crusier, or a destroyer is to a frigate. Bigger is not better in this game. And fights don't turn out like that if the pilot is better then you. Just because your in a destroyer doesn't mean you can take out a AF. I have had people say one thing and then get shown another. Its all about fitting and skill. If you have more experiance and you know what your doing. A AF will even kill ships many times their size simply because they can't be hit easly.
Look on the KB's and eventually you come across ace pilots who kill BS's in rifters. A rifter can kill any ship if the pilot has the perfect fitting and knows how to pilot it. So don't tell me a BlackOps can be overpowered if you give it the proper performance of a T2 ship so it has the same survivablity as atleast x1.5 the standard of a T1 BS. It should also have the ability to use the cov ops cloak or just that would make it useable in surprise attacks with SB's.
Currently a blackops is just a just a underpowered battleship that never sees the front lines with the exception of the widow. Now thats a decent ship. Give all blackops the same ewar capablity as recons do like a widow does as its comparable to a rook. Then maybe the blackops won't be subcombat battleships. 
The ship costs more then 1/2 bill as it is, make it perform like a half a bill worth of hardware.
PS A blackops is not a glorified BC. A glorified BC is a command ship and they can have the DPS and tank of a BS, Astrate 1250 DPS max, nighthawk 1000/1500 DPS tank or 900 DPS with kin HAM's and 150k EHP, Damnation 500K EHP. A Black ops can't do that because its sub par in performance to even a command ship. Its about as comparable to a T1 BC in defense and DPS.
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XXSketchxx
Gallente
Remote Soviet Industries
Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2010.03.10 16:52:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
TL;DR:
Remove the cloaking scan res penalty, increase the grid/cpu and return EHP/cap to BS levels.
This is a perfectly viable fix. They will not be overpowered, but rather be worth the expensive price tag and pretty target they paint themselves with.
And if someone decides the best use for their BoB is to camp a gate, let them do it. Don't worry, they will die horribly. Though maybe they'll get a few hauler kills first.
As for those saying Black Ops are "fine." You do realize CCP has stated they need looking into right?
_____________________________________________
-Sketch, Certified Pharmacist
Need a Boost?
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Millsy1
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Posted - 2010.03.10 16:57:00 -
[12]
I think one of CCPs concerns are shown by groups like Burn Eden and Dirt Nap Squad.
they are very good at dropping in on the right targets and pwning them. So they might think that buffing them would make them overpowered.
Of course this shouldn't be who they look at. Because there are gangs of rifters that WTF pwn things far more powerful, just because they are better organized.
The only thing I would wonder, is how often are the other expencive faction battleships used in pvp. A blaghorn (sp?) is about the same price isn't it?
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Sul Sonic
Caldari
The Blackbriar Group
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Posted - 2010.03.10 17:21:00 -
[13]
I think they should be able to use interdiction fields like HICS or intedictors. Sure HICs and Interdictors already can, but they can't lock onto covert cynos and make jump bridges. That way you have a covert ship that can uncloak and prevent everyone from warping.
Then they wouldn't need to lock faster, be vitally important, and you don't have to buff their damage/tank.
Fate loves the fearless. ~James Russell Lowell |
Neurotica Zeshi
Gallente
Worst Case Scenario.
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Posted - 2010.03.10 22:22:00 -
[14]
No, i think you missed the point of my post. Blackops are not made to be as good as normal bs they are not made to be used as front line weapons, they are not as good as normal bs because they are not designed to be able to go toe to toe with a normal bs.
They are made to be used in Gureilla wafare tactics hence the jump drive, so you can hotdrop small to medium sized gangs then cloak and hide and then jump out. And they are extremely effective at doing this
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Last Wolf
Rage For Order
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Posted - 2010.03.10 22:50:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Last Wolf on 10/03/2010 22:51:15
OP needs to learn how to USE his BOP.
Seriously, go take a look at Brick Squad, Burn Eden or such. They aren't SUPPOSED to be a front line BS.
If you just want to press F1, turn on tank and then /wait for killmail you trained for the wrong ship.
BOPs are VERY good at what they do.
Try this out for size. Get a 5 man gang with a cov-ops/force recon with covert cyno generator. Have another 5-15 man gang of Bombers/BOPs waiting within jump range. If you pick your spot right this can be within an entirely different region and they'll have NO intel on you.
People are WAY more likely to initiate a fight with only 5 hostiles in system than with 20. By the time they notice the cyno they are bubbled and their 10 vs 5 advantage is now 10 vs 20.
Oh no you don't!
Incoming witty reply, ETA: 300 seconds! |
Bellum Eternus
Gallente
Death of Virtue
MeatSausage EXPRESS
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Posted - 2010.03.10 23:09:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Last Wolf
Edited by: Last Wolf on 10/03/2010 22:51:15
OP needs to learn how to USE his BOP.
Seriously, go take a look at Brick Squad, Burn Eden or such. They aren't SUPPOSED to be a front line BS.
If you just want to press F1, turn on tank and then /wait for killmail you trained for the wrong ship.
BOPs are VERY good at what they do.
Try this out for size. Get a 5 man gang with a cov-ops/force recon with covert cyno generator. Have another 5-15 man gang of Bombers/BOPs waiting within jump range. If you pick your spot right this can be within an entirely different region and they'll have NO intel on you.
People are WAY more likely to initiate a fight with only 5 hostiles in system than with 20. By the time they notice the cyno they are bubbled and their 10 vs 5 advantage is now 10 vs 20.
Christ on a cracker.
Please come up with an argument that doesn't include 'bridge another N+1 stealth bombers in...'
Yes, I get that when used in this fashion they can and do sometimes work. Frankly, as the design currently is, if you jump your Black Ops in with the rest of the ships you're doing it wrong. Why bother? If you've managed to get a few recons together (1-2 Arazus, a few Falcons and a Rapier) and a dozen or so stealth bombers for DPS then what is the point of risking the Black Ops on the front line other than to ***** on the killmails?
Please try reading what I'm writing before posting next time. I'm saying that currently, from a PVP perspective the Black Ops ships do *NOTHING* that a regular T1 BS can't do with the same cloak fit, besides the issue of the 30 second sensor recalibration time. Same crap lock speed, less DPS, less tank, less EHP.
So again, *if you're actually going to try and use a Black Ops for PVP*, you're better off just fitting a cloak to a regular T1 BS as long as you can work around the sensor recalibration time, which I can, because the lock speed is so horribly bad anyway that I can't tackle anything with it anyway so the recalibration time is a moot point.
FFS, ignoring the (small) request to fix the grid/cpu/EHP etc., could we at least get the scan resolution issue fixed?
--
Bellum Eternus
Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Tier 5 Battleships
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Anile8er
FinFleet
IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.03.10 23:17:00 -
[17]
I think you pointed it out fairly when you said "black ops aren't frontline PVPers".
Isn't that the idea behind being "BLACK OPS" ? i.e. behind the enemy lines... disrupting local activity... commerce raiding... not going head to head with more generalized PVP ships.
I think the ship should be able to fit a covert ops cloak and warp cloaked. Other than that I don't see a reason why they should be able to compete with frontline BS or even BCs.
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Kahega Amielden
Minmatar
Reckoning.
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Posted - 2010.03.10 23:32:00 -
[18]
Bellum actually does have a point. Why the hell does the Widow, for example, get ECM bonuses if it's never supposed to see the front line? Right now it's pointless. It makes far more sense not to risk the expensive hull and just let the fleet you're bridging around do it.
Now, removing the scan resolution penalty is a horrible idea. It's a battleship hull. With a t2 cloak it already has comparable scan resolution to t1 BS, which is fine. They should, however, have at least similar combat capabilities to t1 BS, if not very slightly more. They would STILL be primarily a logistics ship for cloaky gangs...No one's going to blow an extra 700+ million ISK for a cloak bonus when you could get a faction BS which is actually noticeably superior in direct combat.
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Ephemeron
Retribution Corp.
Initiative Associates
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Posted - 2010.03.10 23:38:00 -
[19]
Quote:
As far as stealth and combat effectiveness goes, you can fit a cloak to a regular battleship and have the exact same functionality, save the recalibration penalty.
That is wrong.
The cloaking speed bonus plays critical role in allowing black ops to escape bubble camps in 0.0
Normal cloak fitted BS can't escape from anyone with a dictor or HIC because it's MWD+cloak pulse moves it just a couple KM - and the campers can easily decloak it. Black ops on other hand can often get out of bubble range on its MWD+cloak pulse, and even if it can't, it has a pretty good chance of evading enemy ships that try to decloak it.
The survivability for solo/small gang roaming is about 10x.
However, since it's price is also about 10x of normal, the long term cost to benefit is 1:1 and thus no real incentive to use. It's still a viable choice, just nothing major.
The simplest way to introduce more black ops into general pvp is to half their price. More complicated way is to boost their performance, but that's where nobody can agree what to do. And CCP is too paranoid about any chances that increase killing power.
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Ephemeron
Retribution Corp.
Initiative Associates
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Posted - 2010.03.10 23:56:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Anile8er
Isn't that the idea behind being "BLACK OPS" ? i.e. behind the enemy lines... disrupting local activity... commerce raiding... not going head to head with more generalized PVP ships.
Unfortunately that idea only works in theory. In practice, the only thing you can hope to disrupt are asteroid belt NPC farmers.
All the real commerce and industry happens in stations and POS. All the valuable traffic goes thru cyno jumps or death star jump bridges.
Nobody uses gates anymore for anything really valuable. Not like the old days.
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King Rothgar
Violent By Design
Rough Necks
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Posted - 2010.03.10 23:58:00 -
[21]
They currently aren't combat ships, the argument is they should be. And by combat I don't mean sitting in the middle of 200 other ships, I mean sneaking behind enemy lines, attacking isolated targets (ie a ratting BS) and disappearing before the blob can show up. I think that's called guerrilla warfare. This is exactly how a proper recon is flown currently. My pilgrim can ruin a pve'rs day if they aren't paying attention. Why should I be forbidden to do the same with a redeemer?
Now yeah, it has a jump bridge that allows cov ops cloak equipped ships like a pilgrim to travel 3-4 systems without using the stargate. That's a worthless bonus. Ships with cov ops cloaks can quickly and easily make their way there without the jump bridge. Also, as stealthy ships they typically operate in small numbers, not big gangs. Are you really going to whip out a minimum of 1x BO's, 1x Cov ops and a third ship to attack a target that the third ship could simply solo via jumping through a stargate? It makes no sense.
The ship needs to be redone. Since I fly a redeemer periodically, I'll state what I think it needs: +5k armor, +3k structure, recon resists, +1 turret, +1 low, +100 CPU, +2 LY jump range, +20% per level energy neutralizer/vampire bonus (replaces cloak or tracking).
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Tomaso Yoshitome
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Posted - 2010.03.11 01:00:00 -
[22]
Make them cov-ops ships. Not as tough as a regular BS, but warpy-cloaky...
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente
Death of Virtue
MeatSausage EXPRESS
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Posted - 2010.03.11 02:23:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Ephemeron
Quote:
As far as stealth and combat effectiveness goes, you can fit a cloak to a regular battleship and have the exact same functionality, save the recalibration penalty.
That is wrong.
The cloaking speed bonus plays critical role in allowing black ops to escape bubble camps in 0.0
Normal cloak fitted BS can't escape from anyone with a dictor or HIC because it's MWD+cloak pulse moves it just a couple KM - and the campers can easily decloak it. Black ops on other hand can often get out of bubble range on its MWD+cloak pulse, and even if it can't, it has a pretty good chance of evading enemy ships that try to decloak it.
The survivability for solo/small gang roaming is about 10x.
However, since it's price is also about 10x of normal, the long term cost to benefit is 1:1 and thus no real incentive to use. It's still a viable choice, just nothing major.
The simplest way to introduce more black ops into general pvp is to half their price. More complicated way is to boost their performance, but that's where nobody can agree what to do. And CCP is too paranoid about any chances that increase killing power.
Dood, with all due respect, if you jump a Black Ops into a bubble camp, you're doing it wrong.
--
Bellum Eternus
Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Tier 5 Battleships
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Ephemeron
Retribution Corp.
Initiative Associates
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Posted - 2010.03.11 03:33:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Dood, with all due respect, if you jump a Black Ops into a bubble camp, you're doing it wrong.
There is no wrong way to play EVE, just profitable or not profitable - until the player quits the game.
Anyway, if you are serious about black ops discussion, you have to consider all possibilities, that's rule #1 of game design.
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente
Death of Virtue
MeatSausage EXPRESS
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Posted - 2010.03.11 04:04:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Ephemeron
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Dood, with all due respect, if you jump a Black Ops into a bubble camp, you're doing it wrong.
There is no wrong way to play EVE, just profitable or not profitable - until the player quits the game.
Anyway, if you are serious about black ops discussion, you have to consider all possibilities, that's rule #1 of game design.
Agreed, but you're missing my point.
Citing a Black Op's cloaked speed bonus as a dramatic and effective difference worth the seven fold difference in price just doesn't hold any water.
And while your use of a Black Ops BS may be notable and unique, if I'm flying my shiny 1B+ BS around in 0.0, I'm damn sure going to be scouting with something less expensive and more agile. Again, sure, it's possible to do it, but why take the chance when there is a MUCH simpler/more effective way to do things?
As it sits, if they kept BlackOps BS *exactly* how they are now and allowed them to use CovOps cloaks then I'd say fair play and leave it at that. But if they're going to not be allowed to warp cloaked then they need to have the same effectiveness as a regular BS with a similar cloak. It's just not that big a performance increase to warrant it's use over a T1 BS.
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Bellum Eternus
Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Tier 5 Battleships
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Anile8er
FinFleet
IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.03.11 06:43:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Anile8er on 11/03/2010 06:46:49
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
As it sits, if they kept BlackOps BS *exactly* how they are now and allowed them to use CovOps cloaks then I'd say fair play and leave it at that.
Than just say this instead of suggesting that a ship who's role is behind the lines be given frontline PVP capablities.
I agree that Black OPs need a change. I think the use of a Covert Ops cloak is a good start. I also think CCP should decide on some similar roles for the ships. As it currently stands you have only one Black Ops ship using "recon" style bonuses and the rest are damage bonuses. I understand that the Widows jamming base comes from the Scorpion but you'ld have to agree thats kind of sloppy development.
Idea:
Widow- jamming role
Redeamer- neut/nos role (range like the curse?)
Sin- long range warp disruptor role
Panther- long range webbing role
^ discuss?
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Emperor Ryan
Amarr
Imperial Syndicate Forces
Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2010.03.11 09:15:00 -
[27]
Originally by: XXSketchxx
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
TL;DR:
Remove the cloaking scan res penalty, increase the grid/cpu and return EHP/cap to BS levels.
This is a perfectly viable fix. They will not be overpowered, but rather be worth the expensive price tag and pretty target they paint themselves with.
And if someone decides the best use for their BoB is to camp a gate, let them do it. Don't worry, they will die horribly. Though maybe they'll get a few hauler kills first.
As for those saying Black Ops are "fine." You do realize CCP has stated they need looking into right?
well now they know where to look!
- Emperor
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King Rothgar
Violent By Design
Rough Necks
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Posted - 2010.03.11 13:47:00 -
[28]
Edited by: King Rothgar on 11/03/2010 13:49:52
Originally by: Anile8er
Edited by: Anile8er on 11/03/2010 06:46:49
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
As it sits, if they kept BlackOps BS *exactly* how they are now and allowed them to use CovOps cloaks then I'd say fair play and leave it at that.
Than just say this instead of suggesting that a ship who's role is behind the lines be given frontline PVP capablities.
I agree that Black OPs need a change. I think the use of a Covert Ops cloak is a good start. I also think CCP should decide on some similar roles for the ships. As it currently stands you have only one Black Ops ship using "recon" style bonuses and the rest are damage bonuses. I understand that the Widows jamming base comes from the Scorpion but you'ld have to agree thats kind of sloppy development.
Idea:
Widow- jamming role
Redeamer- neut/nos role (range like the curse?)
Sin- long range warp disruptor role
Panther- long range webbing role
^ discuss?
Making them EW warfare ships like recons is a combat role though. As I said previously, they need to be sneak attack ships that can actually take the lead role in the attack, not just sit around as a gimped jump bridge.
In regards to specifics, previously I suggested just beefing them up to be a direct combat ship with the ability to jump around. I've said in previous threads on the subject many times that turning them into BS sized recons is better. However this needs to be thought out better than just making them a bit better at gank and tank. Turning the redeemer into a BS sized curse is probably a bad idea. It would epically overpowered and would crush the bhaalgorn which *should* be superior.
Here's why: the curse keeps it's t1 arbitrator bonuses (TD and drones) and gets a 20% neut/nos amount bonus + a 40% per level range bonus. Follow that setup on a redeemer and you have:
Amarr BS: -50% cap usage on energy turrets, +25% RoF
Black Ops: +20% energy neut/nos amount per level, +40% range to energy neut/nos per level.
End result is a 75km range on basic t2 heavy neuts sucking out 1200 cap at that range. The range bonus is too much imho. So I would give it the force recon bonus instead, a cov ops cloak rather than the neut/nos range bonus but keeping the amount bonus. In either case it would also get the same buff to defenses that the recons get which incidentally is around +3k armor (to make it equal with t1 counterpart), a ton of resists and +1 low slot or more. This would also require +200 cpu and around +5k grid.
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Abyss Wyrm
Caldari
Starbridge
Brotherhood of Starbridge
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Posted - 2010.03.12 07:17:00 -
[29]
Originally by: xXxSatsujinxXx
I personally don't see the issue. A group of 4-5 blackops are plenty enough to cause massive problems in an enemy home constellation. They aren't there to fight, they're there to gank careless people, and be gone before backup arrives. In that situation, you don't need to bridge bombers/recons around, you have all the dps you need.
Without having to fit the portal, fitting a decent tank/gank fit is pretty easy. So you just gotta make the choice - combat or portal. You can't do both realistically, which to me seems pretty reasonable.
Totaly agree on that.
There is another proposal for BOs
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1269899&page=1
My standing service is available now again, check this link. |
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.03.12 08:25:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Hirana Yoshida on 12/03/2010 08:26:17
As much as I like the idea of making them worthwhile (ie. worth jumping in after bridge), I still wouldn't do it even if EHP and sensors were on par with T1 BS.
Cloaked speed bonus is nice, but travelling any sort of distance without propulsion is detrimental to ones sanity and the occasions where one can honestly say "wow that bonus is really good!" are exceedingly rare.
The only thing they have going for them is the bridge, all other aspects are better covered by other ships. The idea of tying up 5B+ in five ships behind enemy lines because "it works" is ridiculous .. you can do so much more with 5 bombers at a fraction of the cost (and its a lot more fun to boot!).
We need to find a reason to jump in after the minions and I have still not seen any idea that encourages that.
My suggestions:
- Let them inherit a dumbed down version of the Titan bonuses or an entirely unique set. Essentially allow them to act as gang-boosters without the need for gang-links (assumption: does not work cloaked).
- Add a maintenance array with minimal or no space for ship(s), a frigate/destroyer hull at most. Allows reloading and refitting for whole gang when out and about.
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