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Another Caldari Ripoff ?

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Trader20	Posted - 2010.03.11 19:39:00 - [91] Edited by: Trader20 on 11/03/2010 19:40:51 Does 100+- dps as the other faction bs's (excluding the vin) and tanks about the same. Fit it like a raven and throw some ogres II's in there. So u think the velocity bonus should be swapped for a rof/dps bonus or do u just dislike cruise/torps? Also Liang proves the point that quantity ≠ quality
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2010.03.11 19:40:00 - [92] Gypsio III good luck with your boosters in usual fleet ops. Btw zealot muninn can use that too then,which will result in infrared crystal 100km optimal for a zealot which out dps and out track the eagle. Oh and muninn can do it too little less optimal than the eagle but still better tracking + usuall matar advantages. Still there are no pirate ships which main weapons are missiles/caldari origin-->caldari shafted.
DevilsLure	Posted - 2010.03.11 19:47:00 - [93] Originally by: Tulisin Dragonflame I, for one, applaud CCP's change to the Guristas ships to make them into shield-tanked drone carriers with launcher hardpoints. As much as people value balls-to-the-wall asplosion-boats, they forget that maxing the DPS is not really what drone carriers have been about. Less reliance on high slots means more slots for tank/utility/malleability on drone boats without sacrificing DPS entirely. tl;dr : If you're comparing ships based solely on max DPS, you're doing it wrong, the Rattlesnake is incredibly strong in its own way. This is probably the best damn point in this whole thread. @ Raven Paine : You might do 30% less damage , but you might also tank 100% better than some of those other pirate ships. It might be fair to say "this is the best tank Caldari has ever had" So yes , your OP was correct , but if you fly this ship you need to use its strength's , or pick a different ship.
Tulisin Dragonflame	Posted - 2010.03.11 20:12:00 - [94] Originally by: DevilsLure Originally by: Tulisin Dragonflame I, for one, applaud CCP's change to the Guristas ships to make them into shield-tanked drone carriers with launcher hardpoints. As much as people value balls-to-the-wall asplosion-boats, they forget that maxing the DPS is not really what drone carriers have been about. Less reliance on high slots means more slots for tank/utility/malleability on drone boats without sacrificing DPS entirely. tl;dr : If you're comparing ships based solely on max DPS, you're doing it wrong, the Rattlesnake is incredibly strong in its own way. This is probably the best damn point in this whole thread. @ Raven Paine : You might do 30% less damage , but you might also tank 100% better than some of those other pirate ships. It might be fair to say "this is the best tank Caldari has ever had" So yes , your OP was correct , but if you fly this ship you need to use its strength's , or pick a different ship. 100 % better tank also means you can do 0 % better tank with 4 slots to do whatever you want with. Which means more DPS, or ewar, or even logistics.
Tippia Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.11 20:39:00 - [95] Originally by: Naomi Knight Still there are no pirate ships which main weapons are missiles/caldari origin-->caldari shafted. No. At best you could argue that one pirate ship with no direct missile damage bonus → missile users shafted. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2010.03.11 20:43:00 - [96] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Naomi Knight Still there are no pirate ships which main weapons are missiles/caldari origin-->caldari shafted. No. At best you could argue that one pirate ship with no direct missile damage bonus → missile users shafted. But missile users are mainly caldari pilots, also can you see any rail or ecm pirate ships?
Tippia Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.11 21:01:00 - [97] Edited by: Tippia on 11/03/2010 21:04:44 Originally by: Naomi Knight But missile users are mainly caldari pilots, …and Amarr and Minmatar. Hell, all races have torp boats. You're basing your view of the Caldari on the vast amounts of Ravenkind-flying mission runners (for which the Rattler is an excellent alternative, being a missile boat and all). Quote: also can you see any rail or ecm pirate ships? Rail? Yes. Plenty. ECM? No, but again: you can't see any scram/damp/TD/TP pirate ships either. Of course, there's also the fact that Caldari boats do nasty things when equipped with blasters, which you seem to keep forgetting. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
DXYOC	Posted - 2010.03.11 21:05:00 - [98] Edited by: DXYOC on 11/03/2010 21:05:39 STFU Naomi , you are always crying about caldari , they are just fine.Just because they don't have a DPS pirate BS doesn't mean they suck.Just crosstrain if you find that to be an issue.
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2010.03.11 21:16:00 - [99] Originally by: DXYOC Edited by: DXYOC on 11/03/2010 21:05:39 STFU Naomi , you are always crying about caldari , they are just fine.Just because they don't have a DPS pirate BS doesn't mean they suck.Just crosstrain if you find that to be an issue. Oh Im delighted now Mr. STFU, you say caldari is fine then it must be fine then. Awesome arguing skills you have Im fully convinced.
Liang Nuren The Aduro Protocol Talon Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.11 21:34:00 - [100] The only problems with caldari are: - The Raven lacks a bit of EHP compared to other gank battleships. It make sup for it with lots more range and some pretty superb damage. - The hybrid bonused ships aren't that awesome (IMO). This is primarily because hybrids aren't that awesome. Blasters lack damage for their engagement range (especially these days), and rails just lack damage overall. Being able to outrange everyone doesn't help you in mixed environments unless it lets you use higher damage ammo. - As a rule, Caldari ships lack grid. Meh, but overall I really like Caldari and feel that the Raven and Drake have historically been dramatically underestimated. And the Crow IS a good interceptor for attacking things bigger than you - regardless of how it fares when a Crusader gets on its ass. Inty usefulness isn't solely determined by inty duels. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire

knobber Jobbler	Posted - 2010.03.11 21:43:00 - [101] Originally by: RavenPaine Edited by: RavenPaine on 11/03/2010 02:42:34 Ive heard of sentry's , but I've never used them . You know why ? Because Caldari doesnt have a large drone BS either. All other races do. Do drone mods go in midslots? Then tackle , AB , possibly Cap Booster start to eat up those slots pretty fast. And yeah, Battleships dont tackle at 55 , I guess you missed my point on that 1. Domi is not a Pirate ship . I am comparing Pirate ships only . And specificly looking at DPS . Honestly would you buy the Rattle over the Nightmare ? Would you fight a Mare and expect to win ? As for CCP.. they ARE the developer arent they ? Dude, getting at least t2 medium drones and the support skill is a must for any race. I fly caldari most of the time and learnt drones very early on. They prove their value all the time with very few of them and no bonuses.
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2010.03.11 21:59:00 - [102] Edited by: Naomi Knight on 11/03/2010 21:59:20 Originally by: Liang Nuren The only problems with caldari are: - The Raven lacks a bit of EHP compared to other gank battleships. It make sup for it with lots more range and some pretty superb damage. - The hybrid bonused ships aren't that awesome (IMO). This is primarily because hybrids aren't that awesome. Blasters lack damage for their engagement range (especially these days), and rails just lack damage overall. Being able to outrange everyone doesn't help you in mixed environments unless it lets you use higher damage ammo. - As a rule, Caldari ships lack grid. Meh, but overall I really like Caldari and feel that the Raven and Drake have historically been dramatically underestimated. And the Crow IS a good interceptor for attacking things bigger than you - regardless of how it fares when a Crusader gets on its ass. Inty usefulness isn't solely determined by inty duels. -Liang I agree with this. Hybrid ships needs a boost both caldari/gallente ones-->hybrid boost. And with little more pg caldari ships become fittable-->more pg for caldari. Then only some minor tweeks and it will be fine,like 4th med slot for the raptor and such, shield gang bonus fix, shield hp implant set for capitals, rr shield modules fix+little explo velocity increase for missiles especially the small ones. Oh and fix cruise missiles those are as good as rockets atm :)
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2010.03.11 22:23:00 - [103] Originally by: Liang Nuren Inty usefulness isn't solely determined by inty duels. Inty usefulness is ofc determined by attacking bigger targets.
Liang Nuren The Aduro Protocol Talon Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.11 22:29:00 - [104] Yeah, I forgot about rockets... and I'm generally underwhelmed by cruise for a variety of reasons (mostly relating to "high damage at extreme range" and performance at said range due delayed damage). But, things like this can be pointed out for any of the races - none of them are anywhere near perfect. I suppose that is what makes the world go round (so to speak), but I think it wouldn't be too terribly hard to make things look a bit better for everyone. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2010.03.11 22:34:00 - [105] Originally by: Naomi Knight Gypsio III good luck with your boosters in usual fleet ops. Btw zealot muninn can use that too then,which will result in infrared crystal 100km optimal for a zealot which out dps and out track the eagle. Reread my post. They don't have the range. The Muninn can't get close to making Frentix work with faction ammo in a 100 km engagement. The Zealot can get 90 km with 16 km falloff, at the cost of dropping the PDS for a RCU and fitting dual locus rigs instead of tank/mobility etc. Now that would work in a 90 km engagement... but not for 100 km. Come on man, I explained this. You didn't believe me, but you didn't bother checking for yourself? Hence my advice for people to take the opposite of whatever you post.
Tagami Wasp Caldari Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2010.03.11 23:00:00 - [106] Originally by: Gypsio III The Muninn can't get close to making Frentix work with faction ammo in a 100 km engagement. Maybe because it should be using Drop for tracking with Tremor, not Frentix for range? (If you want to augment the ship capabilities, that is.) Can't you see that once you say that a ship needs additional boosters/ implants, fleet bonuses to be on par with the rest, you defeat your own argument that the ships are balanced? Stop being contrary for the sake of being contrary. Anyway, I don't believe that the missile line for Caldari/ anyone + pirate factions is lacking, except in the matter of roflkets and lolcruise. The Rattler is awesome and anyone complaining about it can always contract their spare to me. ------------ +15% to railguns' dmg modifier -reduce Spike optimal bonus to 70% +10% to Caldari railboats PG
Umega	Posted - 2010.03.11 23:33:00 - [107] The Caldari AND Gallente BS huh.. Gives Gallente a lil diversity with a shield/missile boat and gives Caldari a massive tanked drone boat.. options, yes lets whine about additional options for the gaming experince. The point might have some merit if Caldari didn't have a really kick ass missile boat BS already.. but oh yeah.. they do.
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2010.03.11 23:38:00 - [108] Originally by: Gypsio III Originally by: Naomi Knight Gypsio III good luck with your boosters in usual fleet ops. Btw zealot muninn can use that too then,which will result in infrared crystal 100km optimal for a zealot which out dps and out track the eagle. Reread my post. They don't have the range. The Muninn can't get close to making Frentix work with faction ammo in a 100 km engagement. The Zealot can get 90 km with 16 km falloff, at the cost of dropping the PDS for a RCU and fitting dual locus rigs instead of tank/mobility etc. Now that would work in a 90 km engagement... but not for 100 km. Come on man, I explained this. You didn't believe me, but you didn't bother checking for yourself? Hence my advice for people to take the opposite of whatever you post. Actually Ive checked it myself zealot 79+16km 292dps without implants/boosters. Muninn 240dps with tremor ,enough tracking vs cruiser+, if it want anti frig role it can change to RF ammo and have better tracking + alpha than the eagle + 5 drones,I see no disadvantage at all. Btw 100km is an average wanted range it is more likely 90-110km, and tracking doesnt realy matters only vs enemy frigs.
Denuo Secus	Posted - 2010.03.12 00:12:00 - [109] Originally by: Tulisin Dragonflame I, for one, applaud CCP's change to the Guristas ships to make them into shield-tanked drone carriers with launcher hardpoints. As much as people value balls-to-the-wall asplosion-boats, they forget that maxing the DPS is not really what drone carriers have been about. Less reliance on high slots means more slots for tank/utility/malleability on drone boats without sacrificing DPS entirely. tl;dr : If you're comparing ships based solely on max DPS, you're doing it wrong, the Rattlesnake is incredibly strong in its own way. This ^ @OP: Leave the Rattlesnake alone. It's the perfect if not best exploration ship. Extreme tank, lots of utility slots and still good damage with no ammo consumption. Same for the Gila. Gurista's drone + shield mix is pure win. - Save the missiles from the glowing blob :S R ----------> * A --------> * V --------> * E -------> * N ---------> *
Rip Striker	Posted - 2010.03.12 09:14:00 - [110] Yes, the Rattlesnake is a good ship, no one is arguing against that. Though, fact still remains, missile users got neglected when updating the pirate faction ships. Yes, the Caldari hybrid ships got a velocity bonus, but wtf, who wants that except possibly the pve'ers? Worm and Gila are excellent examples where the missiles barely do any good, at all. Rattlesnake got a good deal, since you have the necessary slot layout and cpu to mount 2-3 damage mods in the lows. Gila and Worm got screwed!

Cambarus The Compass Reloaded	Posted - 2010.03.12 09:39:00 - [111] Originally by: Rip Striker Yes, the Rattlesnake is a good ship, no one is arguing against that. Though, fact still remains, missile users got neglected when updating the pirate faction ships. Yes, the Caldari hybrid ships got a velocity bonus, but wtf, who wants that except possibly the pve'ers? Worm and Gila are excellent examples where the missiles barely do any good, at all. Rattlesnake got a good deal, since you have the necessary slot layout and cpu to mount 2-3 damage mods in the lows. Gila and Worm got screwed! With the introduction of tier 1 faction BSs caldari now have 2 faction variants for missiles, but no rail platform, why does no one seem to mind this? The fact is that missile users do suffer from a lack of pirate ships, but given that you've got 2 (3 if you count the fleet pest) navy BSs built around missiles (and lets not forget that the CNR is the best tier 2 faction bs by a wide margin, the only one with an awesome bonus over the regular t1 version). Worm needs a fix of some sort, but once they fix rockets it may well be sorted, and the gila is an awesome cruiser as it is, nothing wrong with it depending more on its drones than its weapons when it's already an awesome ship.
Rip Striker	Posted - 2010.03.12 10:11:00 - [112] Originally by: Cambarus ... Worm needs a fix of some sort, but once they fix rockets it may well be sorted, and the gila is an awesome cruiser as it is, nothing wrong with it depending more on its drones than its weapons when it's already an awesome ship. Yes, I agree, there is nothing wrong with drone bonus on a ship. But since missiles consitute a large chunk of my total skill points, i'd be happy to see it used properly. In particular since pirate ships are supposed to be sort of 50/50 from each race, missile users got screwed (i'd say Caldari, but some forumtrolls can't take it). Anyways, nothing I can do except crosstrain and be happy. Greedy CCP wants more money -> create pirate ships which more or less makes players to cross train -> subscriptions are prolonged
Cambarus The Compass Reloaded	Posted - 2010.03.12 10:30:00 - [113] Originally by: Rip Striker Originally by: Cambarus ... Yes, I agree, there is nothing wrong with drone bonus on a ship. But since missiles consitute a large chunk of my total skill points, i'd be happy to see it used properly. In particular since pirate ships are supposed to be sort of 50/50 from each race, missile users got screwed (i'd say Caldari, but some forumtrolls can't take it). Anyways, nothing I can do except crosstrain and be happy. Greedy CCP wants more money -> create pirate ships which more or less makes players to cross train -> subscriptions are prolonged Pirate ships ARE for the most part 50/50 in terms of skills. 2 of the 3 bonuses for the guristas ships are caldari based, so you can't really say caldari got shafted, and as for missile users, what exactly would you give them? Torps are already the highest dps weapon system in the game, there are already ships that use them AND get a bonus to target painters, nuking the main disadvantage of using them, and they've already made a ship with an extra launcher hardpoint over the t1 variant. So what can CCP do to make a pirate missile ship that doesn't step on the toes of already existing missile ships while at the same time somehow incorporating some sort of gallente feature into the ship? I know! make a ship that only gets about half of its damage from missiles, and the other half from drones! ALL of the guristas ships are fine in concept, it's HAMs and rockets that need looking at.
Jacob Stov	Posted - 2010.03.12 11:28:00 - [114] Originally by: Cambarus ALL of the guristas ships are fine in concept, it's HAMs and rockets that need looking at. HAMs ? I think they are ok. What sucks are rockets and cruise missiles. Anyway. If someone got left out so far it's a shield tanked hybrid weapon ship. Mordus could get their own ship line. Or an yet unknown Caldari-Matari x-faction. Tukker maybe ? At least those peeps have agents with a caldari avatar... So yes, enough missiles ships, give shield tanked blaster goodness pls !
RavenPaine	Posted - 2010.03.12 18:35:00 - [115] Pretty awsome thread all in all . And I have a different point of view on the Rattle now. I'm still training for it (9 days till Gallente BS 4) And I'm still gonna fly it. It was almost made for a guy with my skills , so I will sit in it very well . It Isn't the DPS king (what I was hoping for) but it is a tank machine (something I'm not used to flying , frankly)And a Scorpion hull that actually tanks had never entered my mind . There are several reasons why Caldari pilots feel ripped off . I see a lot of those reasons posted here. Its not just a feeling thats confined to Caldari pilots themselves, but most PvP'rs in general. When in doubt , the Raven gets primaried , because its not a "bad" choice. Some elite PvP corps wont let you fly a raven in PvP fleets . PvP'rs with big E-Peen make comments like he's still in a raven .Etc.Etc. And eventually , most Caldari pilots find themselves training for something else , because it truly is better. That said: I know the Caldari strong points . Drake tank is legendary and E-War is second to none. Torp DPS is real indeed. Tengu, Onyx, CNR and PvE are all top notch.
Liang Nuren The Aduro Protocol Talon Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.12 18:47:00 - [116] Originally by: RavenPaine Some elite PvP corps wont let you fly a raven in PvP fleets. I underlined the operative part. Delayed damage in a fleet (implies sniper BS fleet) is PURE FAIL, and no amount of missile damage could make up for that. Fortuntately, most of those elite PVP corps will let you fly a Scorpion. Quote: PvP'rs with big E-Peen make comments like he's still in a raven. One of those big E-Peen PVPers recently made a comment like that to me. Turns out he didn't realize that Ravens deal A ** TON of damage. Old stereotypes die hard - and big e-peen PVPers are usually the last to learn that there's a new kid on the block that can roflstomp them. Mostly because they're too busy "killing noobs" to listen to a new idea. Seriously, it took them over TWO YEARS to understand that the Drake wasn't just a noob-mobile. Quote: And eventually , most Caldari pilots find themselves training for something else , because it truly is better. No, they end up training something else because they FEEL its better - true or not. They say "Oh, Caldari sucks at SOLO PVP" and then promptly ignore that SOLO PVP virtually never happens and that Caldari has ALWAYS been excellent at gang PVP. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum *** Extraordinaire
Stalina Gallente Deep Space Exploration Squad Ev0ke	Posted - 2010.03.12 19:21:00 - [117] Originally by: RavenPaine stuff Please stop posting. ________________________________________ ________________________________________ http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
Exploding Tukey	Posted - 2010.03.12 19:29:00 - [118] Originally by: Stalina Originally by: RavenPaine stuff Please stop posting. The shield rigged armor buffered raven with shield mods made me lol... The 4missile rokh was a close second!
Umega	Posted - 2010.03.12 19:42:00 - [119] Originally by: Rip Striker Waaaaaaaaaa! Just admit you want a broken BS. There is a reason CCP didn't make it a significant missile dmg mod like you are crying for.. cause they already made it, its called a Golem. Fly one if you want what you keep crying for. You're actually going to make an arguement about cross-training as a means to take more money from people? I call it diversity and I completely welcome such personally, cause otherwise this game would get bland and boring faster. Brilliant on their part to give caldari and gallente pilots different options that are not the norm for them while making such a bit of a task instead of allowing such for the masses that ultimately don't have a clue of the purpose of the ship, and wind up filling up a hopefully informational forum into a load of trash. Again.. you want a Golem, go fly one and quit crying about a different ship that is awesome in its own way. Liang already touched on the PvP issue of missiles quite well, their dmg is steller.. the delay in doing so is the crutch. Sorry folks.. can't have it all. Otherwise the Caldari pool would be more tainted with people that think they know it all and believe they deserve it all cause of such than it already is with the L4 gold rush of PvE.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.03.12 20:11:00 - [120] There are many ships that gank. Not so many that combine capless weapons with a huge dronebay and a drone bonus. Only thing I can see that's wrong with the rattler, is that I can't afford one.



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