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RavenPaine	Posted - 2010.03.11 00:17:00 - [1] So I'm wanting to train a Pirate BS . I'm looking at them and I discover : Vindicator has 8 turret slots and gets a 37.5% bonus to damage. 5 Heavy drones. Nightmare gets 4 turrets with 100% bonus , and additional Caldari BS damage bonus. 3 Heavy drones Bhaalgorn gets 4 turrets with 100% bonus. Some sick energy neuts , and 3 Heavy drones. Machariel gets 7 turrets with 25% Rof bonus and additional (25%) Minnie BS Damage bonus. Rattlesnake gets 4 launcher hardpoints with no damage bonus , and 5 Heavy drones . It gets a drone bonus....but it must surely be shy of at least 3 launchers to be even close to equal . CCP whats up ? Anybody else , am I missing something ?
Liang Nuren The Aduro Protocol Talon Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.11 00:28:00 - [2] What you're missing is an imagination. The Rattlesnake may be a bit (but not much) damage anemic, but I think we can all agree it'd be a bit overpowered to deal 1000 DPS and passively tank 3000. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
RavenPaine	Posted - 2010.03.11 01:02:00 - [3] Nightmare has a caldari bonus , but its still an Amarr gunship , lasers at that. Rattle is the only missile ship . And part of my complaint is that a pure Caldari pilot is probly going to pick an Amarr ship to pvp in. As for range .... No tackle and Heavies flying in from 55 KM is not a "plus" imo. The tank is cool (I havent fitted one yet) and all the bottom slots open for damage mods is also cool.
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.03.11 01:44:00 - [4] ... To be honest I'm a bit more annoyed at the fact both Caldari pirate frigates (Succubus and Worm) are seriously lacking right now. _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
Liang Nuren The Aduro Protocol Talon Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.11 01:48:00 - [5] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 11/03/2010 01:50:33 Two comments: - Sentries. Ever heard of them? - Show me a faction BS that tackles at 55km. -Liang Ed: Also, I echo the above poster. I am very underwhelmed by the Worm, Succubus, and Hawk. But to say that "another" Caldari ripoff is blatantly misinformed. You act like it's some kind of consistent thing or that CCP has something against Caldari -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
RavenPaine	Posted - 2010.03.11 02:21:00 - [6] Ive heard of sentry's , but I've never used them . You know why ? Because Caldari doesnt have a large drone BS either. All other races do. And yeah, Battleships dont tackle at 55 , I guess you missed my point on that 1. Domi is not a Pirate ship . I am comparing Pirate ships only . And specificly looking at DPS . Honestly would you buy the Rattle over the Nightmare ? Would you fight a Mare and expect to win ? As for CCP.. they ARE the developer arent they ?
Liang Nuren The Aduro Protocol Talon Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.11 02:35:00 - [7] Originally by: RavenPaine Ive heard of sentry's , but I've never used them . You know why ? Because you fail. If you're interested in the Rattlesnake, you have access to the Domi. Quote: And yeah, Battleships dont tackle at 55 , I guess you missed my point on that 1. Maybe because you didn't have one? Quote: And specificly looking at DPS . Yes, because all ships are measured purely on their DPS. Quote: Honestly would you buy the Rattle over the Nightmare ? Would you fight a Mare and expect to win ? Yes, I would buy a Rattlesnake. And in a 1v1, I would expect the Nightmare to have NO CHANCE IN HELL of winning. Zero chance. Literally. Couldn't be done, not even with the officer implants. Quote: As for CCP.. they ARE the developer arent they ? Yes, and you're crazy if you think they're somehow "gimping" Caldari in PVP. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
RavenPaine	Posted - 2010.03.11 03:27:00 - [8] I dont have access to the Domi , I have to train The BS skill for the Rattle. You fail tbh , by not knowing what the hell your talking about. My point was : Missile advantage is always range. Being up close doesnt help you at all , but it helps gunships a lot. Do you ever PvP with Caldari as your DPS platform ? I kinda dont think you do , cause if you did , you'd know what I'm talking about. Which eqates to: you dont know what your talking about. If your just here to be a smart ass , then you win. I surrender
Tagami Wasp Caldari Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2010.03.11 04:17:00 - [9] Ehm, Rattler kills Mare in it's sleep. 2x heavy neuts, drones and Torps will chew through Mare's shiled in no time. [Rattlesnake, New Setup 1] Damage Control II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Power Diagnostic System II Power Diagnostic System II Warp Disruptor II Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II 100MN MicroWarpdrive II Siege Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Torpedo Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I Large Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Large Core Defence Field Extender I Large Core Defence Field Extender I Ogre II x5 Garde II x5 1000 dps, 190K EHP. Good luck to the Nightmare going against this one. ------------ +15% to railguns' dmg modifier -reduce Spike optimal bonus to 70% +10% to Caldari railboats PG
Liang Nuren The Aduro Protocol Talon Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.11 04:30:00 - [10] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 11/03/2010 04:33:23 Originally by: RavenPaine I dont have access to the Domi , I have to train The BS skill for the Rattle. You fail tbh , by not knowing what the hell your talking about. How do you plan to fly a Rattlesnake without Gallente BS and good drone skills? Or maybe you missed that monster drone bay and bandwidth? Quote: My point was : Missile advantage is always range. Being up close doesnt help you at all , but it helps gunships a lot. As a rule, you don't want to be any closer than optimal + a little bit if there's any notable transversal at all. Not that I expect you to know that you start losing DPS by going closer in a gunship. Quote: Do you ever PvP with Caldari as your DPS platform ? I kinda dont think you do , cause if you did , you'd know what I'm talking about. Which eqates to: you dont know what your talking about. Yes, as a matter of fact. I've gotten quite a number of (solo!) kills as a Caldari, and I've been to -10 and back flying nothing but Caldari missile ships several times. My favorite (Caldari missile only) ships are the Raven, Drake, Crow, and Manticore. I previously liked the Failcan (who didn't?) and Scorpion. I strongly dislike their idea of a fleet scorp - optimal is so imporant to fleet jamming. I'd really rather them have kept the brawler scorp idea. But of course, you can continue to feel like CCP hates Caldari, but I assure you its just you. -Liang Ed: And if you're curious, MY Raven with MY skills does 1400 DPS at 30km. Sure is such low DPS! -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire

Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2010.03.11 05:31:00 - [11] if you want a missile brawler going to have to go with a cnr or a sni. two pretty good ships for such a role. and I do wish the Rattlesnake had some more dps but the way it tanks it would be rather op.
Tippia Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.11 06:13:00 - [12] Originally by: RavenPaine Rattlesnake gets 4 launcher hardpoints ~~with no damage bonus~~ and a 50% damage bonus to drones. Fixed. Quote: CCP whats up ? Anybody else , am I missing something ? Yes. The huge damage bonus the Rattler gets. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Cambarus The Compass Reloaded	Posted - 2010.03.11 06:19:00 - [13] The rattlesnake is awesome, not so much in pve but in pve... We had a wartarget who flew one a while back, he's sitting outside a station, so the other corp that they had decked engages, 4 people shooting him (2 were in BSs, don't remember the other 2) and he just sits there tanking it like it's nothing, they almost lose one of their guys so they disengage. Then my corp (only 3 members but decent pvpers) undock with 2 maelstroms and an abaddon, so probably about 25-2600 DPS total, then the other 4 who had been shooting him come back, (tbh they were probably sh*tfit but it's still extra dps). Only then do we start to break his tank, just very slowly..... Then His buddy undocks in a vulture, and he proceeds to tank 7 people shooting at him. He also puts out about 800DPS with that ship (a guesstimate based on how long I could tank him) THAT is why the rattler is awesome. That being said, if you want an upgrade to the raven in terms of missiles, just get a CNR, I mean christ it's already the best faction BS out there, it gets a freaking extra gun over the t1 version, and a gankfit cnr does more damage than a gankfit vindi...
Rip Striker	Posted - 2010.03.11 06:27:00 - [14] Originally by: RavenPaine So I'm wanting to train a Pirate BS . I'm looking at them and I discover : Vindicator has 8 turret slots and gets a 37.5% bonus to damage. 5 Heavy drones. Nightmare gets 4 turrets with 100% bonus , and additional Caldari BS damage bonus. 3 Heavy drones Bhaalgorn gets 4 turrets with 100% bonus. Some sick energy neuts , and 3 Heavy drones. Machariel gets 7 turrets with 25% Rof bonus and additional (25%) Minnie BS Damage bonus. Rattlesnake gets 4 launcher hardpoints with no damage bonus , and 5 Heavy drones . It gets a drone bonus....but it must surely be shy of at least 3 launchers to be even close to equal . CCP whats up ? Anybody else , am I missing something ? Yes, this game lacks missile based pirate faction ships. Yes, CCP has neglected to account for all the players with +10M skill points in missiles. Yes, once again Caldari got shafted!
NoNah	Posted - 2010.03.11 06:28:00 - [15] Liang is so wrong. Again. It's not just OP, it's the bulk of caldari that thinks they're mistreated. That caldari sucks for pvp. And that their failures are because of their faction, not their own lack of competense. I would've been able to accept op saying there's no traditional caldari bs, spewing missiles and shieldtanking. But... then again no race short of minmata... angel.. gets a ship that does exactly what the rest of their ships does. Guess that just might be the point of having pirate faction ships being mixed between two empire factions. Parrots, commence! Postcount: 135602
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2010.03.11 07:39:00 - [16] Edited by: Naomi Knight on 11/03/2010 07:39:08 RavenPaine is so true "caldari" pirate ships are the worst pirate ships,there is not even a pure missile pirate ships,why? because ccp is caldari hater thats why. Just look at pirate frigs: cruor:amarr/matar energy turrets succubus: amarr/caldari energy turrets worm:caldari/gallente drones daredevil:matar/gallente hybrids dramiel: matar/gallente projectiles sum that up: primary races 2 amarr 0 caldari 2 gallente 1 matar Oh and somehow the half caldari pirate frigs are the worst ones and matar being the op and good ones. It is clr that ccp is anti-caldari. Add that worst dread/carrier is caldari,they will possibly change matar MS bonuses so then caldari MS will be the worst there too. Ceptors AFs,hacs worst worst worst are caldari. The only good caldari ships are the drake,rook thats all.Others just medicore at best. Maybe it soundy whiney but still it is the truth :P
Pandares Gallente hindsight is 20-20 Carebears 'R Us	Posted - 2010.03.11 08:12:00 - [17] Originally by: NoNah Liang is so wrong. Again. nah, Liang gets a bit pedantic at times, but is rarely wrong. Originally by: NoNah It's not just OP, it's the bulk of caldari that thinks they're mistreated. That caldari sucks for pvp. And that their failures are because of their faction, not their own lack of competense. Lol you talked to the bulk of Caldari players? respect... Caldari has some of the best pvp ships in the game, the Drake, Rokh, Raven, as well as access to the only ewar battleship, the Scorpion. You get the best ewar, with ECM. You get the meassure of all T3 ships, the Tengu. The crow is still a good inty, the Onyx is either the best heavy dictors, or second best, depending who you ask. The flycatcher is cheap, the best quality an interdictor can have. On top of all of that, almost nothing can touch the Caldari dominance in PVE ships. Ever heard people talk about how awesome their Fleet Tempest or Navy Megathron's and Domi's are? It's cuz they're not. Not in the way the Navy Raven kicks butt. _______________________________________________
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2010.03.11 08:23:00 - [18] Originally by: Pandares Originally by: NoNah Liang is so wrong. Again. nah, Liang gets a bit pedantic at times, but is rarely wrong. Originally by: NoNah It's not just OP, it's the bulk of caldari that thinks they're mistreated. That caldari sucks for pvp. And that their failures are because of their faction, not their own lack of competense. Lol you talked to the bulk of Caldari players? respect... Caldari has some of the best pvp ships in the game, the Drake, Rokh, Raven, as well as access to the only ewar battleship, the Scorpion. You get the best ewar, with ECM. You get the meassure of all T3 ships, the Tengu. The crow is still a good inty, the Onyx is either the best heavy dictors, or second best, depending who you ask. The flycatcher is cheap, the best quality an interdictor can have. On top of all of that, almost nothing can touch the Caldari dominance in PVE ships. Ever heard people talk about how awesome their Fleet Tempest or Navy Megathron's and Domi's are? It's cuz they're not. Not in the way the Navy Raven kicks butt. It is clr that you have no clue , crow is still a good ceptor? WHAAAAT?? sure only caldari has an ewar bs that doesnt make it good rokh good pvp ship??? oh no raven?? only for dps against other battleships ,but hey every other races has a bs for that thing and can do nearly as good as the raven or just better tengu is for pve , for pvp use the drake caldari dominance in PVE???? have you skipped the last 1-2 years of eve or what? have you heard of vargur/nightmare at all? Navy raven is so old school btw.
Jacob Stov	Posted - 2010.03.11 08:24:00 - [19] Are you guys insane ? For faction + missiles navy Scorp and navy Raven are great and sufficient. With the new Rattler there is finally a shield tanked drone boat. What I miss in Caldari lineup would be shield tanked hybrid boats with a fat damage bonus. Pls give Caldari-Minmatar crossbreed: blasters, speed, shieldtank.
Pandares Gallente hindsight is 20-20 Carebears 'R Us	Posted - 2010.03.11 08:28:00 - [20] Originally by: Naomi Knight have you skipped the last 1-2 years of eve or what? have you heard of vargur/nightmare at all? Surely you're not suggesting the Vargur has been any kind of useful for 1-2 years already? People get used to stuff so quickly. Try 3 months. And the Golem is STILL better. And the Nightmare? It requires Caldari BS to fly, halfwit. _______________________________________________

Madmi CEO Mad Mining Inc.	Posted - 2010.03.11 08:30:00 - [21] Originally by: Naomi Knight tengu is for pve , for pvp use the drake So you say a Drake will beat a Tengu in PvP? Once we agree that it will not, why do you then consider Tengu a PvE ship?
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2010.03.11 08:39:00 - [22] Originally by: Madmi CEO Originally by: Naomi Knight tengu is for pve , for pvp use the drake So you say a Drake will beat a Tengu in PvP? Once we agree that it will not, why do you then consider Tengu a PvE ship? Drake 30m tengu 300m and it is just a little better than the drake. If you have the money you can use the tengu just fine. But for big fleets the extra doesnt worth the isk --> so drake. Therefor for me tengu is for pve ,and drake is for pvp. Pandares: Golem better? maybe I have yet to test a golem ,but everybody who uses vargur say it is awesome. Btw you can use the paladin for amarr missions which requer em/thermal dmg/resist,and it will be much better than a golem there. Possibly the same with vargur against matar npc-s. Still I cannot prove that vargur is better than the golem , somebody who used both could write something about it. But I have a feeling that vargur is just better,so where is the caldari dominance in pve you said? :)
Madmi CEO Mad Mining Inc.	Posted - 2010.03.11 08:46:00 - [23] Drake 30m? If you're talking signature radius, please show me your epic fit! My Drake is looking like an oversized battleship when measured by the Signature.
NoNah	Posted - 2010.03.11 08:47:00 - [24] Originally by: Pandares Originally by: NoNah Liang is so wrong. Again. nah, Liang gets a bit pedantic at times, but is rarely wrong. Originally by: NoNah It's not just OP, it's the bulk of caldari that thinks they're mistreated. That caldari sucks for pvp. And that their failures are because of their faction, not their own lack of competense. Lol you talked to the bulk of Caldari players? respect... Caldari has some of the best pvp ships in the game, the Drake, Rokh, Raven, as well as access to the only ewar battleship, the Scorpion. You get the best ewar, with ECM. You get the meassure of all T3 ships, the Tengu. The crow is still a good inty, the Onyx is either the best heavy dictors, or second best, depending who you ask. The flycatcher is cheap, the best quality an interdictor can have. On top of all of that, almost nothing can touch the Caldari dominance in PVE ships. Ever heard people talk about how awesome their Fleet Tempest or Navy Megathron's and Domi's are? It's cuz they're not. Not in the way the Navy Raven kicks butt. Something tells me you're somewhat new, 09? '10?(To the forums that is, the age of your character is rather irrelevant). Liang has been wrong ever since she first showed up here. And she's ugly to. Always has been. As for talking to the bulk of caldari... That was a joke, right? I've never once stated that caldari ships are subpar. I've stated that the majority of caldari players think they are, on incorrect basis. Parrots, commence! Postcount: 271823
Pandares Gallente hindsight is 20-20 Carebears 'R Us	Posted - 2010.03.11 08:48:00 - [25] Originally by: Naomi Knight Possibly the same with vargur against matar npc-s. Still I cannot prove that vargur is better than the golem , somebody who used both could write something about it. But I have a feeling that vargur is just better,so where is the caldari dominance in pve you said? :) Actually Liang will be able to provide those numbers, if he feels like it. _______________________________________________
Jacob Holland Gallente Weyland-Vulcan Industries	Posted - 2010.03.11 08:49:00 - [26] Originally by: RavenPaine I dont have access to the Domi , I have to train The BS skill for the Rattle. You fail tbh , by not knowing what the hell your talking about. My point was : Missile advantage is always range. Being up close doesnt help you at all , but it helps gunships a lot. Do you ever PvP with Caldari as your DPS platform ? I kinda dont think you do , cause if you did , you'd know what I'm talking about. Which eqates to: you dont know what your talking about. If your just here to be a smart ass , then you win. I surrender You've complained about the lack of a Caldari, large drone bay BS... and then complain that the Rattlesnake is a drone boat? If you want a missile based DPS boat then it's been around for a while in the form of the Raven Navy Issue, 7 torps with a 37.5% damage bonus and 3 Heavy Drones (or sentries). Not only does it put out huge paper DPS at very long ranges (for a short range weapon) but it also costs significantly less than the Pirate BS. The only way to build a ship which is more "caldari", more missiley and higher DPS than the CNR is either to give it a double damage bonus (two damage bonuses and a range bonus? perhaps a little too much?) or yet another launcher... at which point you get the State Issue... And when you mix in Gallente bonuses to a Caldari missile boat, what bonus should be applied? The primary Gallente bonuses are Hybrid Turret damage, Hybrid Turret Tracking or the replacement of the primary weapon system with a large drone bay and drone bonus... None of them very missiley. -- Originally by: cordy Respect to IAC .Your one of the few people who truly deserve to own and live in the space you are in.
Oirienicsa Gallente Beyond Divinity Inc	Posted - 2010.03.11 08:51:00 - [27] Edited by: Oirienicsa on 11/03/2010 08:52:50
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2010.03.11 08:52:00 - [28] I generally find it accurate to assume the opposite of everything Naomi posts about Caldari.
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2010.03.11 08:53:00 - [29] Originally by: Madmi CEO Drake 30m? If you're talking signature radius, please show me your epic fit! My Drake is looking like an oversized battleship when measured by the Signature. Ive only wroted the hull prices from memory here is the curret jita prices: drake 26m tengu 200m hull+210m hybrid ship modules for my tengu,around 400m so it looks even less worthy the fit is nearly the same if you want to use both of them in the same way
Madmi CEO Mad Mining Inc.	Posted - 2010.03.11 08:53:00 - [30] Edited by: Madmi CEO on 11/03/2010 08:53:58 Originally by: Oirienicsa You know, not everyone considers PvP on the terms of who can bring the bigger blob some people actually use skill to PvP rather than numbers... Skill in EVE is also measured by the work you do in EFT and on paper before actually undocking. Not just clicking buttons in space. That's one of the main reasons I love EVE. Originally by: Naomi Knight Originally by: Madmi CEO Drake 30m? If you're talking signature radius, please show me your epic fit! My Drake is looking like an oversized battleship when measured by the Signature. Ive only wroted the hull prices from memory here is the curret jita prices: drake 26m tengu 200m hull+210m hybrid ship modules for my tengu,around 400m so it looks even less worthy the fit is nearly the same if you want to use both of them in the same way Yeah, had a brainfart - figured out you meant money afterwards. We can easily agree that you get more bang for your buck with a Drake.

Pandares Gallente hindsight is 20-20 Carebears 'R Us	Posted - 2010.03.11 08:54:00 - [31] Originally by: NoNah As for talking to the bulk of caldari... That was a joke, right? I've never once stated that caldari ships are subpar. I've stated that the majority of caldari players think they are, on incorrect basis. My bad; misread the intent of your post as it sat between people railing against how Caldari got the shaft. The rest of my post stands, just shouldn't have quoted you in it _______________________________________________
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2010.03.11 08:59:00 - [32] Edited by: Naomi Knight on 11/03/2010 08:59:24 Originally by: Gypsio III I generally find it accurate to assume the opposite of everything Naomi posts about Caldari. Because you are in low sec,where missile delay is not a huge problem,and dunno if you use rail ships or not but those are just weak compared to beam or arty ships. Just write us what caldari ships you fly and why,how you fit them/use. Because if caldari is such a good race to fly as you point out then we can be sure that you use them daily over other races ships ,right?
Fumitsugu Blood Money Inc.	Posted - 2010.03.11 09:02:00 - [33] I think that the problem of not having a bonused missile pirate BS could be solved by the introduction of a Caldari-Minmatar pirate faction.....almost certainly called "Fumitsugu's Buccaneeeeers" given my taste for caldari and minmatar ships
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2010.03.11 09:04:00 - [34] Originally by: Fumitsugu I think that the problem of not having a bonused missile pirate BS could be solved by the introduction of a Caldari-Minmatar pirate faction.....almost certainly called "Fumitsugu's Buccaneeeeers" given my taste for caldari and minmatar ships That would be a strange one because then ccp couldnt decide it should be good as the matar ships usually or bad as the caldari ones.
Liang Nuren The Aduro Protocol Talon Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.11 09:27:00 - [35] Originally by: NoNah Liang is so wrong. Again. It's not just OP, it's the bulk of caldari that thinks they're mistreated. That caldari sucks for pvp. And that their failures are because of their faction, not their own lack of competense. Um, that's really splitting hairs there. My argument could easily be applied to all of the caldari whiners that feel CCP has epically slighted them in PVP. But, of course, you are correct. Many Caldari feel this way, whether it's justified or not. That said, I do feel that rails suck. As for the Vargur vs Golem - I believe the Golem to be superior and the Vargur easier to use (a not inconsequential thing!). IMO the differences primarily come from cost effectiveness and rough damage type selection + falloff + tracking vs pure damage type selection + managing 3 painters (Major PITA IMO - binding them to the next function keys after your torps helps a lot though). -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
Dracoknight Strategic Syndicate Chain of Chaos	Posted - 2010.03.11 09:55:00 - [36] Well, it seems to be that the tengu is one of the most used T3 ships in PvP nowadays At least in the alliance tournament they showed their worth as a DPS ship. So far Caldari more or less dominates the PvE market, the majority of the missioners fly the Caldari Raven into their level 4s, or the drake depending on their skill. Over to the topic: The Rattlesnake is a Raven/Dominix hydrid, mixing the torps and the drones for massive dam...errr....massive tank. ____________________ I wish my Thorax could use missiles...
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2010.03.11 10:02:00 - [37] Originally by: Naomi Knight Edited by: Naomi Knight on 11/03/2010 08:59:24 Originally by: Gypsio III I generally find it accurate to assume the opposite of everything Naomi posts about Caldari. Because you are in low sec,where missile delay is not a huge problem,and dunno if you use rail ships or not but those are just weak compared to beam or arty ships. Actually I'm in wormhole space these days, and I use Typhoon because of some very specific requirements. A Raven would be almost as good for me though. But I'm not seeing the problem with 0.0 either. Small gangs are small gangs, regardless of the location - they use the same fits and, with the exception of bubbles, the same tactics. So there's no problem with missiles there. The rail ships - Eagle and Rokh - are basically fine. Rokh has a bit less DPS at typical mixed fleet ranges, but much better tracking and EHP. Eagle has about the DPS of Muninn at 100 km, but with much better tracking. Scorp is a great fleet BS - no other BS can remove the DPS of ~2 enemy BS ftom the field instantly.
Rip Striker	Posted - 2010.03.11 10:03:00 - [38] Whatever you guys are debating, fact remains: Originally by: Rip Striker Yes, this game lacks missile based pirate faction ships. Yes, CCP has neglected to account for all the players with +10M skill points in missiles. Yes, once again Caldari got shafted!
Tagami Wasp Caldari Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2010.03.11 10:44:00 - [39] Originally by: Gypsio III The rail ships - Eagle and Rokh - are basically fine. Rokh has a bit less DPS at typical mixed fleet ranges, but much better tracking and EHP. Eagle has about the DPS of Muninn at 100 km, but with much better tracking. Just a small clarification, Eagle and Rokh lack in dps / alpha in comparison to the Amarr/ Minmatar ships. Gypsio knows my arguments. Check the link in my sig for the threadnaught if interested. ------------ +15% to railguns' dmg modifier -reduce Spike optimal bonus to 70% +10% to Caldari railboats PG
Jacob Stov	Posted - 2010.03.11 10:48:00 - [40] Originally by: Gypsio III Actually I'm in wormhole space these days, and I use Typhoon because of some very specific requirements. A Raven would be almost as good for me though. But I'm not seeing the problem with 0.0 either. Small gangs are small gangs, regardless of the location - they use the same fits and, with the exception of bubbles, the same tactics. So there's no problem with missiles there. The rail ships - Eagle and Rokh - are basically fine. Rokh has a bit less DPS at typical mixed fleet ranges, but much better tracking and EHP. Eagle has about the DPS of Muninn at 100 km, but with much better tracking. Scorp is a great fleet BS - no other BS can remove the DPS of ~2 enemy BS ftom the field instantly. That is just wrong. Rokh and Eagle are only acceptable as gapfiller, until you have the skills for Amarr ships and Lasers. Eagle has actually less EHP, since you need two fitting mods, which in most cases means no damage control fitted to keep DPS at somewhat acceptable levels. Raven has no place at all in 0.0 except as ratting ship. Scorpions were stricken from the list with the ECM range nerf. For small gangs cruiser sized jammers are the way to go.

RavenPaine	Posted - 2010.03.11 10:52:00 - [41] Edited by: RavenPaine on 11/03/2010 10:53:47 Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 11/03/2010 04:46:34 Originally by: RavenPaine I dont have access to the Domi , I have to train The BS skill for the Rattle. You fail tbh , by not knowing what the hell your talking about. How do you plan to fly a Rattlesnake without Gallente BS and good drone skills? Or maybe you missed that monster drone bay and bandwidth? Quote: My point was : Missile advantage is always range. Being up close doesnt help you at all , but it helps gunships a lot. As a rule, you don't want to be any closer than optimal + a little bit if there's any notable transversal at all. Not that I expect you to know that you start losing DPS by going closer in a gunship. Quote: Do you ever PvP with Caldari as your DPS platform ? I kinda dont think you do , cause if you did , you'd know what I'm talking about. Which eqates to: you dont know what your talking about. Yes, as a matter of fact. I've gotten quite a number of (solo!) kills as a Caldari, and I've been to -10 and back flying nothing but Caldari missile ships several times. My favorite (Caldari missile only) ships are the Raven, Drake, Crow, and Manticore. I previously liked the Failcan (who didn't?) and Scorpion. I strongly dislike their idea of a fleet scorp - optimal is so imporant to fleet jamming. I'd really rather them have kept the brawler scorp idea. But of course, you can continue to feel like CCP hates Caldari, but I assure you its just you. -Liang Ed: And if you're curious, MY Raven with MY skills does 1450 DPS at 30km. Sure is such low DPS! (Corrected damage to be 1450 instead of 1400) If you think Caldari are so great , why arent you flying their ships ? Even you have labeled it the "Failcan" and everyone knows its one of the Caldari's stronger points. My skills are on Eveboard . Im betting I sit in a Raven about as well as ANYONE in the game . And top damage is common for me...In a T1 Torp Raven.Or lately a Typhoon (10 times cheaper than a Rattle , one more launcher WITH a ROF bonus) Why am I switching to a tier 1 BS over the Caldari tier 2 BS ? hmmm ? Because its better . The OP was about Pirate ships though....and DPS As for your "Numerous Caldari Kills" , where are they ? Its clear to me that you choose almost any other race when the bullets start flying. So arguing about your EFT DPS while you fly to fight in a Brutix has me confused . http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=player&name=Liang+Nuren
Liang Nuren The Aduro Protocol Talon Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.11 10:54:00 - [42] Originally by: RavenPaine http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=player&name=Liang+Nuren Wrong character, dimwit. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
Tippia Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.11 11:00:00 - [43] Originally by: Rip Striker Whatever you guys are debating, fact remains: Yes, this game lacks missile based pirate faction ships. Yes, CCP has neglected to account for all the players with +10M skill points in missiles. Yes, once again Caldari got shafted! No. That's not a fact, just an incorrect assumption that Caldari = missiles and vice versa. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
RavenPaine	Posted - 2010.03.11 11:02:00 - [44] Nope , thats you . 3 kills this month . A decent record all in all . Not arguing that point.
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2010.03.11 11:04:00 - [45] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Rip Striker Whatever you guys are debating, fact remains: Yes, this game lacks missile based pirate faction ships. Yes, CCP has neglected to account for all the players with +10M skill points in missiles. Yes, once again Caldari got shafted! No. That's not a fact, just an incorrect assumption that Caldari = missiles and vice versa. So there are rail or ecm based pirate ships, right? Oh wait...
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2010.03.11 11:16:00 - [46] Originally by: Tagami Wasp Originally by: Gypsio III The rail ships - Eagle and Rokh - are basically fine. Rokh has a bit less DPS at typical mixed fleet ranges, but much better tracking and EHP. Eagle has about the DPS of Muninn at 100 km, but with much better tracking. Just a small clarification, Eagle and Rokh lack in dps / alpha in comparison to the Amarr/ Minmatar ships. Gypsio knows my arguments. Check the link in my sig for the threadnaught if interested. Are these different arguments to the ones in the SHC thread, where everything that you said was shown to be wrong? Or are you still flying MSE Eagles with unnecessary sensor boosters?
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.03.11 11:19:00 - [47] Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 11/03/2010 11:26:06 Quote: Oh and somehow the half caldari pirate frigs are the worst ones and matar being the op and good ones. Matar pirate frig needs a nuclear nerf though, so I would not use it as meter of comparison. Quote: raven?? only for dps against other battleships ,but hey every other races has a bs for that thing and can do nearly as good as the raven or just better There's a reason why botters and china farmers use Caldari BS and why CNR is the de facto standard for missioning and not i.e. a LOL fleet Tempest. And the reason is not because of being underpowered. Quote: have you heard of vargur/nightmare at all? Vargur, like other ships, has 1 NPC kinds it excels against, it's not a general awesomesauce like other, non Minmatar ships are. Quote: Pandares: Golem better? maybe I have yet to test a golem ,but everybody who uses vargur say it is awesome. Vargur is awesome, Golem is better than that. Quote: I've never once stated that caldari ships are subpar. I've stated that the majority of caldari players think they are, on incorrect basis I don't know why Caldari players think to have it so bad. Quickest learning curve, easy access to T2, heck even Weapons Upgrades improves CPU users first, while Minmatars and others have to wait months to get maximum grid savings. In fact, the hugest majority of playerbase are Caldari because for years they were at the top of the min max tables (EvEHQ on top) for science, industry and PvE. This makes them the easiest access race, it becomes almost a given that early facilitation is paid later by a lower "ceiling" than other races (actually, nothing forbids to cross train them, unlike other MMOs where you are stuck in your poor choices till reroll). Quote: That would be a strange one because then ccp couldnt decide it should be good as the matar ships usually or bad as the caldari ones Wanna trade your CNR for my Fleet Tempest? And basically anything above battleship size? Quote: Just a small clarification, Eagle and Rokh lack in dps / alpha in comparison to the Amarr/ Minmatar ships. Amarr handle like bricks (and can only deal a fixed kind of damage) and Minmatar fly on wet (and used!) toilet paper ships (and have their own challenges: from the ethernal falloff umbrella to tracking and huge reload times for arties. Heck we are the inventors of the painters YOU can use and we cannot due to lack of mid slots). Do you prefer being a sitting duck or be primaried all the time? (and this only after the recent minmatar buff, otherwise it was just wet paper and nothing else). - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Tippia Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.11 11:21:00 - [48] Originally by: Naomi Knight Originally by: Tippia No. That's not a fact, just an incorrect assumption that Caldari = missiles and vice versa. So there are rail or ecm based pirate ships, right? Oh wait... Well, for one, there's a missile-based pirate ship. For the other, there's more to Caldari than that, and it's covered as well. If that's the road you want to go down, there are plenty of complaints to go around. Why is there no damp/scram pirate ship? Gallente got screwed. Why is there no Amarr/Gallente-combo ship? They both got screwed. Why is there no Minny/Caldari-combo? They got screwed. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Sigaar	Posted - 2010.03.11 11:27:00 - [49] Quote: So I'm wanting to train a Pirate BS. What do you mean by this? There is no "Pirate Battleship V" skill in my skill book. Pirate ships require cross-faction training. Specifically Caldari BS bonuses apply to Nightmare and Rattlesnake which gives you 2 choices: either Additionally train Amarr or Additionally train Gallente. Now whats your problem?
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2010.03.11 11:28:00 - [50] Edited by: Gypsio III on 11/03/2010 11:30:17 Originally by: Jacob Stov Scorpions were stricken from the list with the ECM range nerf. For small gangs cruiser sized jammers are the way to go. Incorrect. [Scorpion, New Setup 1] Damage Control II Signal Distortion Amplifier II Signal Distortion Amplifier II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II or another sda 100MN MicroWarpdrive I Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range 6x ecm 425mm Railgun II, Spike L 425mm Railgun II, Spike L 425mm Railgun II, Spike L 425mm Railgun II, Spike L [empty high slot] [empty high slot] Large Particle Dispersion Projector I Large Particle Dispersion Projector I Large Hybrid Locus Coordinator I ECM: 147 km optimal, 107 km falloff, 9.4 strength. ~50% chance to jam an Apoc at 150 km, removing the DPS of three on average from the fight straight away. 47k EHP - basically the same as an 8-tachy Apoc 97 DPS at 150 km (lol). Lock range is 200 km, drop the locus rig for LR rig for 247 km range, at which you remove 1.5 Apos from the fight. As for Eagle and Rokh, post your DPS/EHP numbers for their competitors and I'll show you something competitive.

baltec1 Antares Shipyards Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.11 11:51:00 - [51] [Rattlesnake, maby?] Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Damage Control II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Warp Scrabler II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Medium Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800 Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Torpedo Heavy Energy Neutralizer II Heavy Energy Neutralizer II Large Core Defence Field Extender II Large Core Defence Field Extender II Large Core Defence Field Extender II Ogre II x5 Warrior II x10 Hammerhead II x10 Warden II x5 5 min as an EFT warrior got me the above. Its crap but it will cause a lot of pain if you dump it on top of a nightmare. I see no problems with this ship and now want one for myself.
Rip Striker	Posted - 2010.03.11 11:54:00 - [52] Originally by: baltec1 [Rattlesnake, maby?] Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Damage Control II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Warp Scrabler II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Medium Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800 Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Torpedo Heavy Energy Neutralizer II Heavy Energy Neutralizer II Large Core Defence Field Extender II Large Core Defence Field Extender II Large Core Defence Field Extender II Ogre II x5 Warrior II x10 Hammerhead II x10 Warden II x5 5 min as an EFT warrior got me the above. Its crap but it will cause a lot of pain if you dump it on top of a nightmare. I see no problems with this ship and now want one for myself. Imo, 3 missile damage mods on a ship with no missile damage bonus is kind of a waste of low slots.
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2010.03.11 11:59:00 - [53] Edited by: Gypsio III on 11/03/2010 11:59:46 Originally by: Rip Striker Imo, 3 missile damage mods on a ship with no missile damage bonus is kind of a waste of low slots. Missile DPS: 474. Drone DPS: 475. Thanks for that. The only thing wrong with that Rattler fit is the lolSPRs. Drop 'em for PDS to fuel those neuts. Oh, I'd have a MWD too.
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.11 12:04:00 - [54] Originally by: Rip Striker Imo, 3 missile damage mods on a ship with no missile damage bonus is kind of a waste of low slots. shrugs Could get more passive tank in there I guess or even nano fit it. Only spent a few min and didnt really put much thought into it. But I do like this hull.
Tippia Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.11 12:06:00 - [55] Originally by: Rip Striker Imo, 3 missile damage mods on a ship with no missile damage bonus is kind of a waste of low slots. You don't subscribe to the notion that range bonuses can drastically improve your damage, I take it? ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Rip Striker	Posted - 2010.03.11 12:11:00 - [56] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Naomi Knight Originally by: Tippia No. That's not a fact, just an incorrect assumption that Caldari = missiles and vice versa. So there are rail or ecm based pirate ships, right? Oh wait... Well, for one, there's a missile-based pirate ship. For the other, there's more to Caldari than that, and it's covered as well. If that's the road you want to go down, there are plenty of complaints to go around. Why is there no damp/scram pirate ship? Gallente got screwed. Why is there no Amarr/Gallente-combo ship? They both got screwed. Why is there no Minny/Caldari-combo? They got screwed. A missile velocity bonus does not make it right to call it 'missile based ship'. The pirate ships with missile velocity bonus are drone based ships, the end. Please don't make a fool out of yourself. Stop. As I see it, not a single pirate faction ship is built around missiles. And since the Caldari race is the missile race, i'd say Caldari got shafted! However, if CCP for some reason felt that the Guristas would never build a ship based on missiles (why, I don't know), so be it.
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.11 12:12:00 - [57] Originally by: Gypsio III Edited by: Gypsio III on 11/03/2010 11:59:46 Originally by: Rip Striker Imo, 3 missile damage mods on a ship with no missile damage bonus is kind of a waste of low slots. Missile DPS: 474. Drone DPS: 475. Thanks for that. The only thing wrong with that Rattler fit is the lolSPRs. Drop 'em for PDS to fuel those neuts. Oh, I'd have a MWD too. Just dump the snake on a plane so you dont have to MWD around. Also never underestimate the giggle factor of lolSPRs
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2010.03.11 12:14:00 - [58] Originally by: Rip Striker Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Naomi Knight Originally by: Tippia No. That's not a fact, just an incorrect assumption that Caldari = missiles and vice versa. So there are rail or ecm based pirate ships, right? Oh wait... Well, for one, there's a missile-based pirate ship. For the other, there's more to Caldari than that, and it's covered as well. If that's the road you want to go down, there are plenty of complaints to go around. Why is there no damp/scram pirate ship? Gallente got screwed. Why is there no Amarr/Gallente-combo ship? They both got screwed. Why is there no Minny/Caldari-combo? They got screwed. A missile velocity bonus does not make it right to call it 'missile based ship'. The pirate ships with missile velocity bonus are drone based ships, the end. Please don't make a fool out of yourself. Stop. As I see it, not a single pirate faction ship is built around missiles. And since the Caldari race is the missile race, i'd say Caldari got shafted! However, if CCP for some reason felt that the Guristas would never build a ship based on missiles (why, I don't know), so be it. Because Guristas are pvpers and they know missiles sux there:D
Tippia Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.11 12:23:00 - [59] Originally by: Rip Striker A missile velocity bonus does not make it right to call it 'missile based ship'. The pirate ships with missile velocity bonus are drone based ships …except for the fact that they can get more damage out of their missiles (which you'd know if you actually had a clue about missiles), and except for the fact that in this case, the missile damage is on par with (and can even exceed) the drone damage. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2010.03.11 12:42:00 - [60] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Rip Striker A missile velocity bonus does not make it right to call it 'missile based ship'. The pirate ships with missile velocity bonus are drone based ships àexcept for the fact that they can get more damage out of their missiles (which you'd know if you actually had a clue about missiles), and except for the fact that in this case, the missile damage is on par with (and can even exceed) the drone damage. Oh you should stop posting , first that fit doesnt have a target painter nor a web ,how would a torp do full dps then ,it couldnt only like 70% of its dmg against other battleships--> not bonused torps are crap. Oh and lone missile velo bonus wont make it useable.

baltec1 Antares Shipyards Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.11 12:50:00 - [61] Originally by: Naomi Knight Oh you should stop posting , first that fit doesnt have a target painter nor a web ,how would a torp do full dps then ,it couldnt only like 70% of its dmg against other battleships--> not bonused torps are crap. Oh and lone missile velo bonus wont make it useable. Its still better than nothing...
Tippia Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.11 12:53:00 - [62] Originally by: Naomi Knight Oh you should stop posting No. Quote: first that fit doesnt have a target painter nor a web ,how would a torp do full dps then Same way as every other ship. Quote: Oh and lone missile velo bonus wont make it useable. Sure it does. Just learn to fit and fly your ship to take advantage of it. It's hardly rocket surgery… ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Ralavina Vivicide	Posted - 2010.03.11 12:56:00 - [63] Originally by: Cambarus The rattlesnake is awesome, not so much in pve but in pve... We had a wartarget who flew one a while back, he's sitting outside a station, so the other corp that they had decked engages, 4 people shooting him (2 were in BSs, don't remember the other 2) and he just sits there tanking it like it's nothing, they almost lose one of their guys so they disengage. Then my corp (only 3 members but decent pvpers) undock with 2 maelstroms and an abaddon, so probably about 25-2600 DPS total, then the other 4 who had been shooting him come back, (tbh they were probably sh*tfit but it's still extra dps). Only then do we start to break his tank, just very slowly..... Then His buddy undocks in a vulture, and he proceeds to tank 7 people shooting at him. He also puts out about 800DPS with that ship (a guesstimate based on how long I could tank him) THAT is why the rattler is awesome. That being said, if you want an upgrade to the raven in terms of missiles, just get a CNR, I mean christ it's already the best faction BS out there, it gets a freaking extra gun over the t1 version, and a gankfit cnr does more damage than a gankfit vindi... Agreed on the RS - my own one has tanked 3 carriers, 3 BS and 2 cruisers all at once before with 5 target painters and 23 fighters on it - took me down to 35% shields (so I think 1 more ship would have tipped me over the edge). -- Ralara's banned again so this is my alt :p
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2010.03.11 12:56:00 - [64] Originally by: Naomi Knight [ Oh you should stop posting , first that fit doesnt have a target painter nor a web ,how would a torp do full dps then ,it couldnt only like 70% of its dmg against other battleships--> not bonused torps are crap. Oh and lone missile velo bonus wont make it useable. Standard Crash, torp explosion radius from 450 m to 360 m. No painter necessary for all BS except Typhoon and Tempest. I would fit a web though tbh.
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.11 12:57:00 - [65] Originally by: Ralavina Agreed on the RS - my own one has tanked 3 carriers, 3 BS and 2 cruisers all at once before with 5 target painters and 23 fighters on it - took me down to 35% shields (so I think 1 more ship would have tipped me over the edge). fitting please
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2010.03.11 12:59:00 - [66] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Naomi Knight Oh you should stop posting No. Quote: first that fit doesnt have a target painter nor a web ,how would a torp do full dps then Same way as every other ship. Quote: Oh and lone missile velo bonus wont make it useable. Sure it does. Just learn to fit and fly your ship to take advantage of it. It's hardly rocket surgeryà oh that fit doesnt even have a prop module so how it should dictacte range? there is no advantage you can take ,btw other ships using torps actually have target painters
Tippia Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.11 13:01:00 - [67] Edited by: Tippia on 11/03/2010 13:02:19 Originally by: Naomi Knight oh that fit doesnt even have a prop module so how it should dictacte range? there is no advantage you can take ,btw other ships using torps actually have target painters You keep harping on about "that fit", which has nothing to do with what I'm saying, so why are you quoting me? I assume you're talking about the horrid one in post #9? Yes, it's a crap fit, but that doesn't change the fact that extra range can easily be translated into extra damage. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
NoNah	Posted - 2010.03.11 13:04:00 - [68] Is it just me or does this thread lack all content bar a few of the regulars preaching the same old song and a few young and clueless(well inexperienced) pilots raging about how EVE is harder on them than everyone else? Much like last weeks thread on a similiar topic, or the one before that? Nice to see you all active still though o7 Parrots, commence! Postcount: 476150
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.11 13:05:00 - [69] Originally by: Naomi Knight oh that fit doesnt even have a prop module so how it should dictacte range? there is no advantage you can take ,btw other ships using torps actually have target painters Target painter is not needed its just wanted. Damage is good enough and as its intended to be dropped onto a target a MWD is not needed.
Sidus Isaacs Gallente	Posted - 2010.03.11 13:10:00 - [70] Originally by: Gypsio III I generally find it accurate to assume the opposite of everything Naomi posts about Caldari. After reading a few Naomi posts, i must agree. On the Succubus: Not the best around, but not that bad. It ccan do 170 dps, carry 2 small neuts, and do MWD+MSE. Its not a Dramiel or Daredevil, but its a lot better then the Worm :) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html

dtyk	Posted - 2010.03.11 13:49:00 - [71] Edited by: dtyk on 11/03/2010 13:52:19 Edited by: dtyk on 11/03/2010 13:51:45 Originally by: Pandares Yup. Some PVP doesn't take place at facial-range. Hard to believe, I know. Yes, and since the Rokh can utilize it's range bonus without getting in any way hindered by the hard cap on targeting range beyond which nothing can help, and since it has a DPS that is anywhere close to the other races sniper ships BS, and since those other sniper BS don't engage 50km closer and the sniper fleets don't want to stay together, a Rokh makes a great and welcome addition to any sniper BS fleet. Rokh does get a nice bonus from the range when engaging at 10-20km range though, since it can use blasters at that range:P
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2010.03.11 13:57:00 - [72] Originally by: NoNah Is it just me or does this thread lack all content bar a few of the regulars preaching the same old song and a few young and clueless(well inexperienced) pilots raging about how EVE is harder on them than everyone else? Pretty much. I'm in a bad mood today though so I've decided to show up Naomi's nonsense.
Tagami Wasp Caldari Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2010.03.11 14:14:00 - [73] Originally by: Gypsio III Originally by: Tagami Wasp Originally by: Gypsio III The rail ships - Eagle and Rokh - are basically fine. Rokh has a bit less DPS at typical mixed fleet ranges, but much better tracking and EHP. Eagle has about the DPS of Muninn at 100 km, but with much better tracking. Just a small clarification, Eagle and Rokh lack in dps / alpha in comparison to the Amarr/ Minmatar ships. Gypsio knows my arguments. Check the link in my sig for the threadnaught if interested. Are these different arguments to the ones in the SHC thread, where everything that you said was shown to be wrong? Or are you still flying MSE Eagles with unnecessary sensor boosters? So far no-one has been able to counter my arguments about the shortcomings of railguns with valid statements and realistic scenarios in game. Or do you consider trolling and ****posting as valid argumentation? I have shown repeatedly exactly what is wrong with the Eagle, and there are 2 threadnaughts about it. The one in Assembly is the more extensive one and if you are interested, you can go read it (it's the link in my sig). In SHC there were a few trolls (and clueless goons) that don't know how to fit and fly an Eagle or a Rokh because they fly Amarr or don't know jack about sniperHACs. They were not even able to provide a proper Eagle fit. Which one of those are you Gypsio? If you think that a Sensor Booster is unnecessary in a sniperHAC , you are obviously just as ignorant as them. ------------ +15% to railguns' dmg modifier -reduce Spike optimal bonus to 70% +10% to Caldari railboats PG
Tagami Wasp Caldari Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2010.03.11 14:42:00 - [74] Originally by: Tippia ... the horrid one in post #9? It was one that I threw together thinking about going against a Nightmare. If I was to fit a Rattler for PvP, I'd go like this: [Rattlesnake, PvP] Damage Control II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Power Diagnostic System II Power Diagnostic System II Warp Scrambler II Stasis Webifier II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Large Shield Extender II 100MN MicroWarpdrive II <-cap bonus Siege Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Torpedo <-choose your flavor, no difference Siege Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Torpedo Heavy Energy Neutralizer II <-plenty of PG and CPU to fit those, so why not? Heavy Energy Neutralizer II Large Core Defence Field Extender I <-save the isk off T2 rigs, better spend it on another Rattler Large Core Defence Field Extender I Large Core Defence Field Extender I Ogre II x5 Garde II x5 Warrior II x5 <-annoying frigs Vespa EC-600 x5 <- In case the opponent has capless weapons Hammerhead II x5 Hornet EC-300 x5 <-GTFO button if you get tackled and want to just bail. ------------ +15% to railguns' dmg modifier -reduce Spike optimal bonus to 70% +10% to Caldari railboats PG
jubbil Minmatar SLA-Industries	Posted - 2010.03.11 14:54:00 - [75] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwAM2UkkJTw
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2010.03.11 15:11:00 - [76] Originally by: Tagami Wasp In SHC there were a few trolls (and clueless goons) that don't know how to fit and fly an Eagle or a Rokh because they fly Amarr or don't know jack about sniperHACs. They were not even able to provide a proper Eagle fit. Which one of those are you Gypsio? If you think that a Sensor Booster is unnecessary in a sniperHAC , you are obviously just as ignorant as them. Oh yeah, I remember, one of these clueless trolls fitted a MSE to his Eagle. Oh, wait, that was you. 100 km Eagle doesn't need a sensor booster. Sniper HAC lock ranges in fleet: Zealot (SB with range script): 121 km Muninn (SB with range script): 121 km Eagle (Ionic Field Projector): 120 km Wow. 1 km. QED.
Arrador	Posted - 2010.03.11 15:36:00 - [77] Originally by: Tagami Wasp Originally by: Tippia ... the horrid one in post #9? It was one that I threw together thinking about going against a Nightmare. If I was to fit a Rattler for PvP, I'd go like this: [Rattlesnake, PvP] Damage Control II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Power Diagnostic System II Power Diagnostic System II Warp Scrambler II Stasis Webifier II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Large Shield Extender II 100MN MicroWarpdrive II <-cap bonus Siege Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Torpedo <-choose your flavor, no difference Siege Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Torpedo Heavy Energy Neutralizer II <-plenty of PG and CPU to fit those, so why not? Heavy Energy Neutralizer II Large Core Defence Field Extender I <-save the isk off T2 rigs, better spend it on another Rattler Large Core Defence Field Extender I Large Core Defence Field Extender I Ogre II x5 Garde II x5 Warrior II x5 <-annoying frigs Vespa EC-600 x5 <- In case the opponent has capless weapons Hammerhead II x5 Hornet EC-300 x5 <-GTFO button if you get tackled and want to just bail. Demonstrating the DPS/EHP potential of this monster. 970DPS/204k EHP. Just watch out for Machariel's. [Rattlesnake, PVP Beast] Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Power Diagnostic System II Power Diagnostic System II Damage Control II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Parallel Weapon Navigation Transmitter Warp Disruptor II 100MN MicroWarpdrive II Siege Missile Launcher II, Inferno Rage Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Inferno Rage Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Inferno Rage Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Inferno Rage Torpedo Heavy Energy Neutralizer II Heavy Energy Neutralizer II Large Core Defence Field Extender I Large Core Defence Field Extender I Large Core Defence Field Extender I Ogre II x5
Seriously Bored Minmatar	Posted - 2010.03.11 16:18:00 - [78] Originally by: RavenPaine Nope , thats you . 3 kills this month . A decent record all in all . Not arguing that point. That is indeed Liang Nuren. But the the comment was that it's the wrong character for the kill record. Originally by: NoNah Is it just me or does this thread lack all content bar a few of the regulars preaching the same old song and a few young and clueless(well inexperienced) pilots raging about how EVE is harder on them than everyone else? Much like last weeks thread on a similiar topic, or the one before that? Nice to see you all active still though o7 No offense, but the first part of that statement includes yourself, right? (the preaching regulars, I mean) I guess we all spilled over into every other balance thread in S&M once the Projectile Balancing thread got quiet...
ABITA Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2010.03.11 16:21:00 - [79] Only problem with Rattlesnake is that you have to wait for the unbonused torpedos actually fly to target - wich is about couple light years
Ialocin	Posted - 2010.03.11 16:27:00 - [80] Originally by: Liang Nuren Yes, as a matter of fact. I've gotten quite a number of (solo!) kills as a Caldari, and I've been to -10 and back flying nothing but Caldari missile ships several times. My favorite (Caldari missile only) ships are the Raven, Drake, Crow, and Manticore. I previously liked the Failcan (who didn't?) and Scorpion. I strongly dislike their idea of a fleet scorp - optimal is so imporant to fleet jamming. Neutral I'd really rather them have kept the brawler scorp idea. Twisted Evil But of course, you can continue to feel like CCP hates Caldari, but I assure you its just you. -Liang Ed: And if you're curious, MY Raven with MY skills does 1450 DPS at 30km. Sure is such low DPS! Rolling Eyes (Corrected damage to be 1450 instead of 1400) I think i love you. I don't understand why people keep saying Caldari sucks in pvp. There's plenty of good pvp ships. Heck, they (we) even have the ultimate newbie pvp ship, the Drake! Go Caldari!

Reikenji Saito Gallente Tironci Culvarin Inc.	Posted - 2010.03.11 16:35:00 - [81] Originally by: Naomi Knight Originally by: Fumitsugu I think that the problem of not having a bonused missile pirate BS could be solved by the introduction of a Caldari-Minmatar pirate faction.....almost certainly called "Fumitsugu's Buccaneeeeers" given my taste for caldari and minmatar ships That would be a strange one because then ccp couldnt decide it should be good as the matar ships usually or bad as the caldari ones. This sort of thing would probably unbalance things entirely. Super Missles + Projectiles + Shield + Speed = Crazy for Caldari/Minmatar.. Then you'd have people wanting Amarr/Gallente: Lasers + Super Armour Tank + Super Drones = Ouch. I primarily fly Amarr or Minmatar mostly because I like the look of the ships.. All of their battlecruisers are rather funky. Something just strikes me as wrong with Caldari and Gallente craft in general.
Sprilk	Posted - 2010.03.11 16:44:00 - [82] I agree that caldari have been shafted recently, I have over 19M in missiles (no capital class missile sp), my drone skills are there but are the suck, and i am now just kinda almost starting on guns (but not really). Its very fustration when missile users only really have the drake, and the raven varients... our frigate class is ** crow has its niche rolls but its not on par with the other combat ceptors, the hawk is well its the hawk, the amarr rocket assault is even worse then the hawk... The cerb is only really good at piped up lol range where its now useless and you should have brought a gun ship, or anti support but the caracl is only really good for anti support and does almost as good as the cerb. The Sac is fantastic but its amarr its not even caldari. I would love to have a frigate class ship that was even close to the other ships, i have a lol hookbill fitting with dual webs and rockets that still does poor damage but i need dual webs and a scram to even do that ** poor damage. Rockets need a fix badly, It would really be niec to have a pirate faction that uses missiles (cant think of one.... well except guristas but aparently they are drone users however i have never seen a drone launched by one). but EOM or something like that would be great, caldari and amarr both have one less pirate faction to access then min and gal do so adding a caldari/amarr faction would make it a little more even, always bugged me that gal/min had another pirate faction then cal/amarr. NOTE: i am not asking guristass to be changed, they should stay its a good gal/cal mix i am just asking for anaother caldari pirate faction Raven, drake, sac are great ships, all other missile ships are meh at best and the sac isnt even caldari.
Reem Fairchild Minmatar Punic Corp.	Posted - 2010.03.11 16:49:00 - [83] Originally by: Ialocin I don't understand why people keep saying Caldari sucks in pvp. There's plenty of good pvp ships. Heck, they (we) even have the ultimate newbie pvp ship, the Blackbird! Fixed. ----- 'In Eve, as in real life, if you are bored it's your own fault.'
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2010.03.11 17:09:00 - [84] The Sacrilege is terrible, it has a terminal case of Deimos syndrome, and an annoying slot layout unsuited for eaither shield or armour. Cerberus (and Rook, hah!) are massively superior.
Tagami Wasp Caldari Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2010.03.11 17:27:00 - [85] Edited by: Tagami Wasp on 11/03/2010 17:29:11 Originally by: Gypsio III 100 km Eagle doesn't need a sensor booster. Sniper HAC lock ranges in fleet: Zealot (SB with range script): 121 km Muninn (SB with range script): 121 km Eagle (Ionic Field Projector): 120 km We obviously see your fitting prowess Gyp. Nope, SeBo is not required, just use a rig and forgo versatility. I suggest keeping your opinions for lo-sec gate camping and WH-pirating, where they apply. Leave 0.0 roaming to those that know about it. If you have something to say about missile boats and BSes, I'll listen, but on Caldari/ Gallente railgun HACs, you seem pretty ignorant. btw have you ever used an Eagle? All I see is missile boats on your KMs. ------------ +15% to railguns' dmg modifier -reduce Spike optimal bonus to 70% +10% to Caldari railboats PG
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2010.03.11 17:49:00 - [86] Not ignorant enough to fit an MSE on an Eagle, however. And then, when a proper Eagle fit was shown to you, to object on the spurious grounds that it had two fitting mods and hence wasn't benchmarkable. Spaeking of your experience, why don't you tell me about the use of Frentix on 100 km sniper HACs?
Tagami Wasp Caldari Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2010.03.11 18:04:00 - [87] I don't use Frentix to get more range because it's a hassle to get boosters out here where I live (no-one bothers to run the reactions and our moons can be put to better use), but let me get this straight, your answer to Caldari and Gallente HACs disparity is: "Use a booster!". Very constructive. Do you also suggest that we should be using Snake implants to counter the inherent lack of speed and agility? I do fly an MSE Eagle in game when I am in a gang with Scimi support going against lazerboats (CVA Zealots mainly), so that...wait for it... I can fit better resists! You know for Shield RR? Since you can't remember, when you asked about a fit without fitting mod constraints and an LSE, I suggested this: [Eagle, sniper] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Reactor Control Unit II 10MN MicroWarpdrive II Large Shield Extender II Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Sensor Booster II 250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Thorium Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Thorium Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Thorium Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Thorium Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Thorium Charge M Improved Cloaking Device II Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Medium Ancillary Current Router I Guess what? It still is worse than Zealot and Munnin and slightly better than Deimos. And has a glaring EM hole. Anyway, you obviously try to pass off as knowledgable, but fail to understand the issue. Any more lessons in sniperHAC fitting for you my boy will be 250M per. Don't worry, we won't hold it against you. ------------ +15% to railguns' dmg modifier -reduce Spike optimal bonus to 70% +10% to Caldari railboats PG
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2010.03.11 18:40:00 - [88] Almost there. Now drop the sensor booster for a third TC and swap the EM rig for a lock range rig. Now you can actually use thorium at 100 km - your fit had 92 km optimal. I'm not sure why you're so insistent on the sensor booster - didn't you say that in the 100 km role the extra range of an Eagle isn't useful, and the Muninn and the Zealot need a range script to lock to 100 km. Okay, if you come in closer than you drop the script and gain increase scan res, but really that's a pretty minor benefit. So that's 243 DPS, more than a Muninn. Tracking is 2.8 times that of a 100 km Tremor Muninn, and 2.4 times that of an Aurora Zealot. The Zealot wins on raw DPS, speed and sig (why the hell is the Amarr ship faster and smaller than the Minmatar one?) but neither can compete with the Eagle's tracking. The Muninn also has inferior DPS. Yeah, yeah, alpha has its place, but DPS > alpha. EHP to Aurora is 18.5k in gang. In other words, basically the same as the EHP of a Zealot to Aurora. Look into Frentix. With that and a dirt cheap 3% optimal implant you can upgrade to Uranium, getting 270 DPS at 97 km (29 km) - just 20 DPS less than a Zealot, but with 2.4 times the tracking, and 30% more alpha. Frentix doesn't work on the Muninn or Zealot for the 100 km range - they don't need it to hit with T2 ammo, and it's not enough for them to make worthwhile use of faction ammo. TBH, I'm not sure what your problem with these ships' balance is. I'd agree that the Zealot is a bit too good - I don't see why it's faster, smaller, has much better DPS and tracking than a Muninn, while the Muninn only really has alpha and nice shield resists (especially to Aurora... but check the 49k EHP of a Zealot to Tremor!). I don't see why you're picking on the Eagle as the odd one out, rather than the Zealot. I know that people like to take the easy way out and propose buffs instead of nerfs, but I'm not a fan of power creep. Anyway, enough on this from me.
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2010.03.11 18:57:00 - [89] Originally by: Gypsio III I'd agree that the Zealot is a bit too good - I don't see why it's faster, smaller, has much better DPS and tracking than a Muninn... If zealot gets tackled by closerange inty, its basically wreck, it has no frig defence. Munnin will just send ecm300s after him and gtfo /same for deimos/. Eagle has to use small neut, but at least has some chance to gtfo. Also keep in mind there is pvp outside 'sniperhacs vs sniperhacs/bses' too.
Tulisin Dragonflame	Posted - 2010.03.11 19:05:00 - [90] I, for one, applaud CCP's change to the Guristas ships to make them into shield-tanked drone carriers with launcher hardpoints. As much as people value balls-to-the-wall asplosion-boats, they forget that maxing the DPS is not really what drone carriers have been about. Less reliance on high slots means more slots for tank/utility/malleability on drone boats without sacrificing DPS entirely. tl;dr : If you're comparing ships based solely on max DPS, you're doing it wrong, the Rattlesnake is incredibly strong in its own way.

Trader20	Posted - 2010.03.11 19:39:00 - [91] Edited by: Trader20 on 11/03/2010 19:40:51 Does 100+- dps as the other faction bs's (excluding the vin) and tanks about the same. Fit it like a raven and throw some ogres II's in there. So u think the velocity bonus should be swapped for a rof/dps bonus or do u just dislike cruise/torps? Also Liang proves the point that quantity ≠ quality
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2010.03.11 19:40:00 - [92] Gypsio III good luck with your boosters in usual fleet ops. Btw zealot muninn can use that too then,which will result in infrared crystal 100km optimal for a zealot which out dps and out track the eagle. Oh and muninn can do it too little less optimal than the eagle but still better tracking + usuall matar advantages. Still there are no pirate ships which main weapons are missiles/caldari origin-->caldari shafted.
DevilsLure	Posted - 2010.03.11 19:47:00 - [93] Originally by: Tulisin Dragonflame I, for one, applaud CCP's change to the Guristas ships to make them into shield-tanked drone carriers with launcher hardpoints. As much as people value balls-to-the-wall asplosion-boats, they forget that maxing the DPS is not really what drone carriers have been about. Less reliance on high slots means more slots for tank/utility/malleability on drone boats without sacrificing DPS entirely. tl;dr : If you're comparing ships based solely on max DPS, you're doing it wrong, the Rattlesnake is incredibly strong in its own way. This is probably the best damn point in this whole thread. @ Raven Paine : You might do 30% less damage , but you might also tank 100% better than some of those other pirate ships. It might be fair to say "this is the best tank Caldari has ever had" So yes , your OP was correct , but if you fly this ship you need to use its strength's , or pick a different ship.
Tulisin Dragonflame	Posted - 2010.03.11 20:12:00 - [94] Originally by: DevilsLure Originally by: Tulisin Dragonflame I, for one, applaud CCP's change to the Guristas ships to make them into shield-tanked drone carriers with launcher hardpoints. As much as people value balls-to-the-wall asplosion-boats, they forget that maxing the DPS is not really what drone carriers have been about. Less reliance on high slots means more slots for tank/utility/malleability on drone boats without sacrificing DPS entirely. tl;dr : If you're comparing ships based solely on max DPS, you're doing it wrong, the Rattlesnake is incredibly strong in its own way. This is probably the best damn point in this whole thread. @ Raven Paine : You might do 30% less damage , but you might also tank 100% better than some of those other pirate ships. It might be fair to say "this is the best tank Caldari has ever had" So yes , your OP was correct , but if you fly this ship you need to use its strength's , or pick a different ship. 100 % better tank also means you can do 0 % better tank with 4 slots to do whatever you want with. Which means more DPS, or ewar, or even logistics.
Tippia Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.11 20:39:00 - [95] Originally by: Naomi Knight Still there are no pirate ships which main weapons are missiles/caldari origin-->caldari shafted. No. At best you could argue that one pirate ship with no direct missile damage bonus → missile users shafted. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2010.03.11 20:43:00 - [96] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Naomi Knight Still there are no pirate ships which main weapons are missiles/caldari origin-->caldari shafted. No. At best you could argue that one pirate ship with no direct missile damage bonus → missile users shafted. But missile users are mainly caldari pilots, also can you see any rail or ecm pirate ships?
Tippia Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.11 21:01:00 - [97] Edited by: Tippia on 11/03/2010 21:04:44 Originally by: Naomi Knight But missile users are mainly caldari pilots, …and Amarr and Minmatar. Hell, all races have torp boats. You're basing your view of the Caldari on the vast amounts of Ravenkind-flying mission runners (for which the Rattler is an excellent alternative, being a missile boat and all). Quote: also can you see any rail or ecm pirate ships? Rail? Yes. Plenty. ECM? No, but again: you can't see any scram/damp/TD/TP pirate ships either. Of course, there's also the fact that Caldari boats do nasty things when equipped with blasters, which you seem to keep forgetting. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
DXYOC	Posted - 2010.03.11 21:05:00 - [98] Edited by: DXYOC on 11/03/2010 21:05:39 STFU Naomi , you are always crying about caldari , they are just fine.Just because they don't have a DPS pirate BS doesn't mean they suck.Just crosstrain if you find that to be an issue.
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2010.03.11 21:16:00 - [99] Originally by: DXYOC Edited by: DXYOC on 11/03/2010 21:05:39 STFU Naomi , you are always crying about caldari , they are just fine.Just because they don't have a DPS pirate BS doesn't mean they suck.Just crosstrain if you find that to be an issue. Oh Im delighted now Mr. STFU, you say caldari is fine then it must be fine then. Awesome arguing skills you have Im fully convinced.
Liang Nuren The Aduro Protocol Talon Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.11 21:34:00 - [100] The only problems with caldari are: - The Raven lacks a bit of EHP compared to other gank battleships. It make sup for it with lots more range and some pretty superb damage. - The hybrid bonused ships aren't that awesome (IMO). This is primarily because hybrids aren't that awesome. Blasters lack damage for their engagement range (especially these days), and rails just lack damage overall. Being able to outrange everyone doesn't help you in mixed environments unless it lets you use higher damage ammo. - As a rule, Caldari ships lack grid. Meh, but overall I really like Caldari and feel that the Raven and Drake have historically been dramatically underestimated. And the Crow IS a good interceptor for attacking things bigger than you - regardless of how it fares when a Crusader gets on its ass. Inty usefulness isn't solely determined by inty duels. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire

knobber Jobbler	Posted - 2010.03.11 21:43:00 - [101] Originally by: RavenPaine Edited by: RavenPaine on 11/03/2010 02:42:34 Ive heard of sentry's , but I've never used them . You know why ? Because Caldari doesnt have a large drone BS either. All other races do. Do drone mods go in midslots? Then tackle , AB , possibly Cap Booster start to eat up those slots pretty fast. And yeah, Battleships dont tackle at 55 , I guess you missed my point on that 1. Domi is not a Pirate ship . I am comparing Pirate ships only . And specificly looking at DPS . Honestly would you buy the Rattle over the Nightmare ? Would you fight a Mare and expect to win ? As for CCP.. they ARE the developer arent they ? Dude, getting at least t2 medium drones and the support skill is a must for any race. I fly caldari most of the time and learnt drones very early on. They prove their value all the time with very few of them and no bonuses.
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2010.03.11 21:59:00 - [102] Edited by: Naomi Knight on 11/03/2010 21:59:20 Originally by: Liang Nuren The only problems with caldari are: - The Raven lacks a bit of EHP compared to other gank battleships. It make sup for it with lots more range and some pretty superb damage. - The hybrid bonused ships aren't that awesome (IMO). This is primarily because hybrids aren't that awesome. Blasters lack damage for their engagement range (especially these days), and rails just lack damage overall. Being able to outrange everyone doesn't help you in mixed environments unless it lets you use higher damage ammo. - As a rule, Caldari ships lack grid. Meh, but overall I really like Caldari and feel that the Raven and Drake have historically been dramatically underestimated. And the Crow IS a good interceptor for attacking things bigger than you - regardless of how it fares when a Crusader gets on its ass. Inty usefulness isn't solely determined by inty duels. -Liang I agree with this. Hybrid ships needs a boost both caldari/gallente ones-->hybrid boost. And with little more pg caldari ships become fittable-->more pg for caldari. Then only some minor tweeks and it will be fine,like 4th med slot for the raptor and such, shield gang bonus fix, shield hp implant set for capitals, rr shield modules fix+little explo velocity increase for missiles especially the small ones. Oh and fix cruise missiles those are as good as rockets atm :)
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2010.03.11 22:23:00 - [103] Originally by: Liang Nuren Inty usefulness isn't solely determined by inty duels. Inty usefulness is ofc determined by attacking bigger targets.
Liang Nuren The Aduro Protocol Talon Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.11 22:29:00 - [104] Yeah, I forgot about rockets... and I'm generally underwhelmed by cruise for a variety of reasons (mostly relating to "high damage at extreme range" and performance at said range due delayed damage). But, things like this can be pointed out for any of the races - none of them are anywhere near perfect. I suppose that is what makes the world go round (so to speak), but I think it wouldn't be too terribly hard to make things look a bit better for everyone. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2010.03.11 22:34:00 - [105] Originally by: Naomi Knight Gypsio III good luck with your boosters in usual fleet ops. Btw zealot muninn can use that too then,which will result in infrared crystal 100km optimal for a zealot which out dps and out track the eagle. Reread my post. They don't have the range. The Muninn can't get close to making Frentix work with faction ammo in a 100 km engagement. The Zealot can get 90 km with 16 km falloff, at the cost of dropping the PDS for a RCU and fitting dual locus rigs instead of tank/mobility etc. Now that would work in a 90 km engagement... but not for 100 km. Come on man, I explained this. You didn't believe me, but you didn't bother checking for yourself? Hence my advice for people to take the opposite of whatever you post.
Tagami Wasp Caldari Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2010.03.11 23:00:00 - [106] Originally by: Gypsio III The Muninn can't get close to making Frentix work with faction ammo in a 100 km engagement. Maybe because it should be using Drop for tracking with Tremor, not Frentix for range? (If you want to augment the ship capabilities, that is.) Can't you see that once you say that a ship needs additional boosters/ implants, fleet bonuses to be on par with the rest, you defeat your own argument that the ships are balanced? Stop being contrary for the sake of being contrary. Anyway, I don't believe that the missile line for Caldari/ anyone + pirate factions is lacking, except in the matter of roflkets and lolcruise. The Rattler is awesome and anyone complaining about it can always contract their spare to me. ------------ +15% to railguns' dmg modifier -reduce Spike optimal bonus to 70% +10% to Caldari railboats PG
Umega	Posted - 2010.03.11 23:33:00 - [107] The Caldari AND Gallente BS huh.. Gives Gallente a lil diversity with a shield/missile boat and gives Caldari a massive tanked drone boat.. options, yes lets whine about additional options for the gaming experince. The point might have some merit if Caldari didn't have a really kick ass missile boat BS already.. but oh yeah.. they do.
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2010.03.11 23:38:00 - [108] Originally by: Gypsio III Originally by: Naomi Knight Gypsio III good luck with your boosters in usual fleet ops. Btw zealot muninn can use that too then,which will result in infrared crystal 100km optimal for a zealot which out dps and out track the eagle. Reread my post. They don't have the range. The Muninn can't get close to making Frentix work with faction ammo in a 100 km engagement. The Zealot can get 90 km with 16 km falloff, at the cost of dropping the PDS for a RCU and fitting dual locus rigs instead of tank/mobility etc. Now that would work in a 90 km engagement... but not for 100 km. Come on man, I explained this. You didn't believe me, but you didn't bother checking for yourself? Hence my advice for people to take the opposite of whatever you post. Actually Ive checked it myself zealot 79+16km 292dps without implants/boosters. Muninn 240dps with tremor ,enough tracking vs cruiser+, if it want anti frig role it can change to RF ammo and have better tracking + alpha than the eagle + 5 drones,I see no disadvantage at all. Btw 100km is an average wanted range it is more likely 90-110km, and tracking doesnt realy matters only vs enemy frigs.
Denuo Secus	Posted - 2010.03.12 00:12:00 - [109] Originally by: Tulisin Dragonflame I, for one, applaud CCP's change to the Guristas ships to make them into shield-tanked drone carriers with launcher hardpoints. As much as people value balls-to-the-wall asplosion-boats, they forget that maxing the DPS is not really what drone carriers have been about. Less reliance on high slots means more slots for tank/utility/malleability on drone boats without sacrificing DPS entirely. tl;dr : If you're comparing ships based solely on max DPS, you're doing it wrong, the Rattlesnake is incredibly strong in its own way. This ^ @OP: Leave the Rattlesnake alone. It's the perfect if not best exploration ship. Extreme tank, lots of utility slots and still good damage with no ammo consumption. Same for the Gila. Gurista's drone + shield mix is pure win. - Save the missiles from the glowing blob :S R ----------> * A --------> * V --------> * E -------> * N ---------> *
Rip Striker	Posted - 2010.03.12 09:14:00 - [110] Yes, the Rattlesnake is a good ship, no one is arguing against that. Though, fact still remains, missile users got neglected when updating the pirate faction ships. Yes, the Caldari hybrid ships got a velocity bonus, but wtf, who wants that except possibly the pve'ers? Worm and Gila are excellent examples where the missiles barely do any good, at all. Rattlesnake got a good deal, since you have the necessary slot layout and cpu to mount 2-3 damage mods in the lows. Gila and Worm got screwed!

Cambarus The Compass Reloaded	Posted - 2010.03.12 09:39:00 - [111] Originally by: Rip Striker Yes, the Rattlesnake is a good ship, no one is arguing against that. Though, fact still remains, missile users got neglected when updating the pirate faction ships. Yes, the Caldari hybrid ships got a velocity bonus, but wtf, who wants that except possibly the pve'ers? Worm and Gila are excellent examples where the missiles barely do any good, at all. Rattlesnake got a good deal, since you have the necessary slot layout and cpu to mount 2-3 damage mods in the lows. Gila and Worm got screwed! With the introduction of tier 1 faction BSs caldari now have 2 faction variants for missiles, but no rail platform, why does no one seem to mind this? The fact is that missile users do suffer from a lack of pirate ships, but given that you've got 2 (3 if you count the fleet pest) navy BSs built around missiles (and lets not forget that the CNR is the best tier 2 faction bs by a wide margin, the only one with an awesome bonus over the regular t1 version). Worm needs a fix of some sort, but once they fix rockets it may well be sorted, and the gila is an awesome cruiser as it is, nothing wrong with it depending more on its drones than its weapons when it's already an awesome ship.
Rip Striker	Posted - 2010.03.12 10:11:00 - [112] Originally by: Cambarus ... Worm needs a fix of some sort, but once they fix rockets it may well be sorted, and the gila is an awesome cruiser as it is, nothing wrong with it depending more on its drones than its weapons when it's already an awesome ship. Yes, I agree, there is nothing wrong with drone bonus on a ship. But since missiles consitute a large chunk of my total skill points, i'd be happy to see it used properly. In particular since pirate ships are supposed to be sort of 50/50 from each race, missile users got screwed (i'd say Caldari, but some forumtrolls can't take it). Anyways, nothing I can do except crosstrain and be happy. Greedy CCP wants more money -> create pirate ships which more or less makes players to cross train -> subscriptions are prolonged
Cambarus The Compass Reloaded	Posted - 2010.03.12 10:30:00 - [113] Originally by: Rip Striker Originally by: Cambarus ... Yes, I agree, there is nothing wrong with drone bonus on a ship. But since missiles consitute a large chunk of my total skill points, i'd be happy to see it used properly. In particular since pirate ships are supposed to be sort of 50/50 from each race, missile users got screwed (i'd say Caldari, but some forumtrolls can't take it). Anyways, nothing I can do except crosstrain and be happy. Greedy CCP wants more money -> create pirate ships which more or less makes players to cross train -> subscriptions are prolonged Pirate ships ARE for the most part 50/50 in terms of skills. 2 of the 3 bonuses for the guristas ships are caldari based, so you can't really say caldari got shafted, and as for missile users, what exactly would you give them? Torps are already the highest dps weapon system in the game, there are already ships that use them AND get a bonus to target painters, nuking the main disadvantage of using them, and they've already made a ship with an extra launcher hardpoint over the t1 variant. So what can CCP do to make a pirate missile ship that doesn't step on the toes of already existing missile ships while at the same time somehow incorporating some sort of gallente feature into the ship? I know! make a ship that only gets about half of its damage from missiles, and the other half from drones! ALL of the guristas ships are fine in concept, it's HAMs and rockets that need looking at.
Jacob Stov	Posted - 2010.03.12 11:28:00 - [114] Originally by: Cambarus ALL of the guristas ships are fine in concept, it's HAMs and rockets that need looking at. HAMs ? I think they are ok. What sucks are rockets and cruise missiles. Anyway. If someone got left out so far it's a shield tanked hybrid weapon ship. Mordus could get their own ship line. Or an yet unknown Caldari-Matari x-faction. Tukker maybe ? At least those peeps have agents with a caldari avatar... So yes, enough missiles ships, give shield tanked blaster goodness pls !
RavenPaine	Posted - 2010.03.12 18:35:00 - [115] Pretty awsome thread all in all . And I have a different point of view on the Rattle now. I'm still training for it (9 days till Gallente BS 4) And I'm still gonna fly it. It was almost made for a guy with my skills , so I will sit in it very well . It Isn't the DPS king (what I was hoping for) but it is a tank machine (something I'm not used to flying , frankly)And a Scorpion hull that actually tanks had never entered my mind . There are several reasons why Caldari pilots feel ripped off . I see a lot of those reasons posted here. Its not just a feeling thats confined to Caldari pilots themselves, but most PvP'rs in general. When in doubt , the Raven gets primaried , because its not a "bad" choice. Some elite PvP corps wont let you fly a raven in PvP fleets . PvP'rs with big E-Peen make comments like he's still in a raven .Etc.Etc. And eventually , most Caldari pilots find themselves training for something else , because it truly is better. That said: I know the Caldari strong points . Drake tank is legendary and E-War is second to none. Torp DPS is real indeed. Tengu, Onyx, CNR and PvE are all top notch.
Liang Nuren The Aduro Protocol Talon Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.12 18:47:00 - [116] Originally by: RavenPaine Some elite PvP corps wont let you fly a raven in PvP fleets. I underlined the operative part. Delayed damage in a fleet (implies sniper BS fleet) is PURE FAIL, and no amount of missile damage could make up for that. Fortuntately, most of those elite PVP corps will let you fly a Scorpion. Quote: PvP'rs with big E-Peen make comments like he's still in a raven. One of those big E-Peen PVPers recently made a comment like that to me. Turns out he didn't realize that Ravens deal A ** TON of damage. Old stereotypes die hard - and big e-peen PVPers are usually the last to learn that there's a new kid on the block that can roflstomp them. Mostly because they're too busy "killing noobs" to listen to a new idea. Seriously, it took them over TWO YEARS to understand that the Drake wasn't just a noob-mobile. Quote: And eventually , most Caldari pilots find themselves training for something else , because it truly is better. No, they end up training something else because they FEEL its better - true or not. They say "Oh, Caldari sucks at SOLO PVP" and then promptly ignore that SOLO PVP virtually never happens and that Caldari has ALWAYS been excellent at gang PVP. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum *** Extraordinaire
Stalina Gallente Deep Space Exploration Squad Ev0ke	Posted - 2010.03.12 19:21:00 - [117] Originally by: RavenPaine stuff Please stop posting. ________________________________________ ________________________________________ http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
Exploding Tukey	Posted - 2010.03.12 19:29:00 - [118] Originally by: Stalina Originally by: RavenPaine stuff Please stop posting. The shield rigged armor buffered raven with shield mods made me lol... The 4missile rokh was a close second!
Umega	Posted - 2010.03.12 19:42:00 - [119] Originally by: Rip Striker Waaaaaaaaaa! Just admit you want a broken BS. There is a reason CCP didn't make it a significant missile dmg mod like you are crying for.. cause they already made it, its called a Golem. Fly one if you want what you keep crying for. You're actually going to make an arguement about cross-training as a means to take more money from people? I call it diversity and I completely welcome such personally, cause otherwise this game would get bland and boring faster. Brilliant on their part to give caldari and gallente pilots different options that are not the norm for them while making such a bit of a task instead of allowing such for the masses that ultimately don't have a clue of the purpose of the ship, and wind up filling up a hopefully informational forum into a load of trash. Again.. you want a Golem, go fly one and quit crying about a different ship that is awesome in its own way. Liang already touched on the PvP issue of missiles quite well, their dmg is steller.. the delay in doing so is the crutch. Sorry folks.. can't have it all. Otherwise the Caldari pool would be more tainted with people that think they know it all and believe they deserve it all cause of such than it already is with the L4 gold rush of PvE.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.03.12 20:11:00 - [120] There are many ships that gank. Not so many that combine capless weapons with a huge dronebay and a drone bonus. Only thing I can see that's wrong with the rattler, is that I can't afford one.

RavenPaine	Posted - 2010.03.12 22:35:00 - [121] Edited by: RavenPaine on 12/03/2010 22:36:09 Originally by: Exploding Tukey Originally by: Stalina Originally by: RavenPaine stuff Please stop posting. The Buffered Raven was something I wanted to try that day , and it actually lasted a long time . They had reps or I woulda gotten a kill there on the Mega . As for the Rokh , it doesnt get any damage bonus for guns , nada , so if my torps put out more DPS, then they are a better fit. Buffering the armor isnt a new concept btw, on any race . Adding HP is a recomened practice in PvP , or so I'm told. I'm sure you think your cookie cutter fits are uber , but its a game , I like to try different stuff .
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2010.03.12 22:51:00 - [122] Those Raven and Rokh fits are utterly ******ed. PEBKAC.
Tippia Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.12 22:59:00 - [123] Originally by: RavenPaine As for the Rokh , it doesnt get any damage bonus for guns …except that you do, as previously explained. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
RavenPaine	Posted - 2010.03.13 03:37:00 - [124] The ship description is clearly "Optimal Range" I agree that it can create more damage . But only when you apply the word "If" .EG If you fly closer or If he flies closer If you train the skill up Etc. Etc. That does not make it a damage bonus ...That makes it...an optimal range bonus . My comment tho was addressed to My Torps , which do more damage , and have more range than any blaster I fit. They also use less Cap.
Stalina Gallente Deep Space Exploration Squad Ev0ke	Posted - 2010.03.13 10:32:00 - [125] You should stop proving that you have no clue. Have a good day, sir. ________________________________________ ________________________________________ http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
Tippia Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.13 11:02:00 - [126] Originally by: RavenPaine The ship description is clearly "Optimal Range" I agree that it can create more damage . But only when you apply the word "If" .EG If you fly closer or If he flies closer If you train the skill up Etc. Etc. No. No "if" is needed. The description says "optimal range". This means that at the same range, you can select to do more damage than a ship that does not have that optimal range bonus. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Jacob Stov	Posted - 2010.03.13 13:06:00 - [127] Right, and that means nothing "if" the target sits right next to you. Same crap as with the Rokh, it kinda works only at longer ranges, and then in many cases is still infirior to streight damage bonus that works from 0-250km.
Tippia Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.13 13:32:00 - [128] Originally by: Jacob Stov Right, and that means nothing "if" the target sits right next to you. Same crap as with the Rokh, it kinda works only at longer ranges, and then in many cases is still infirior to streight damage bonus that works from 0-250km. …which works "if" the target is within optimal. So it work out the same, only at the other end of the spectrum. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Hurtado Soneka Caldari Nova Productions	Posted - 2010.03.13 14:42:00 - [129] Caldari have been getting shafted by CCP since the game first came out, this is nothing new so the OP is correct.
Cambarus The Compass Reloaded	Posted - 2010.03.13 15:49:00 - [130] Originally by: Hurtado Soneka Caldari have been getting shafted by CCP since the game first came out, this is nothing new so the OP is correct. As far as I remember the only time in the last few years caldari have got shafted was when CCP nerfs the falcon (a ship that is still ridiculously effective, despite these nerfs). Well that and explosion velocity on missiles, but left as they were the missiles of the pre-nano age were just ridiculous when compared to how much of the damage could be mitigated by the now much slower ships of eve. To give you an idea of who's really been getting shafted, let's compare the nerfs to caldari over the last few years to the nerfs gallente have received: Caldari: ECM, Missile explosion velocity Gallente: Damps, Drone bandwidth, drone shield recharge, web nerf , MWD nerf (remember blaster ships rely on both of these things to actually deal any damage), nos nerf, and the fact that every other race has had its weapons boosted(this applies mostly to BS level guns, MPs, torps, and just recently projectiles have all received healthy boosts while hybrids remain stagnant) Yeah, caldari are definitely the ones getting shafted

Jacob Stov	Posted - 2010.03.13 16:07:00 - [131] Well Cambarus, Gallente used to be on top of the food chain. A privilege Caldari didn't enjoy since the early days when missiles used to own everything and the Moa was a fearsome ship. Therfore, longe list of nerfs.
Liang Nuren The Aduro Protocol Talon Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.13 16:14:00 - [132] Originally by: Jacob Stov Well Cambarus, Gallente used to be on top of the food chain. A privilege Caldari didn't enjoy since the early days when missiles used to own everything and the Moa was a fearsome ship. Therfore, longe list of nerfs. It seems foolish to claim that because Caldari hasn't utterly dominated that they haven't been on top of the food chain. The simple fact of the matter is that Gallente was never as powerful as they were made out to be by Caldari carebears. For example, the Drake has ALWAYS been better than the Myrmidon - even when the Myrm had 5 ogres and unnerfed nos. But, we heard thousands of times how the 5 ogre myrm was overpowered - until it got nerfed... despite the fact that Caldari already had a real advantage. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
Jacob Stov	Posted - 2010.03.13 17:00:00 - [133] Originally by: Liang Nuren It seems foolish to claim that because Caldari hasn't utterly dominated that they haven't been on top of the food chain. The simple fact of the matter is that Gallente was never as powerful as they were made out to be by Caldari carebears. For example, the Drake has ALWAYS been better than the Myrmidon - even when the Myrm had 5 ogres and unnerfed nos. But, we heard thousands of times how the 5 ogre myrm was overpowered - until it got nerfed... despite the fact that Caldari already had a real advantage. -Liang Caldari had one outstanding ship: the Raven, for PvE. When was the last time Caldari had something like the 8 HS Geddon or the Gankmega, you could find four years ago at every second lowsec gate ?
Tippia Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.13 17:18:00 - [134] Originally by: Jacob Stov Caldari had one outstanding ship: the Raven, for PvE. When was the last time Caldari had something like the 8 HS Geddon or the Gankmega, you could find four years ago at every second lowsec gate ? You mean like the Raven? Or the Drake for that matter…? ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Liang Nuren The Aduro Protocol Talon Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.13 17:49:00 - [135] Originally by: Jacob Stov Caldari had one outstanding ship: the Raven, for PvE. When was the last time Caldari had something like the 8 HS Geddon or the Gankmega, you could find four years ago at every second lowsec gate ? First, let me ask you how long it's been since Amarr had a 8 HS geddon. But on the subject of "gank megas" - I'm seeing a gank mega top end at just slightly more damage than a gank raven. Of course, the Raven has more range than the mega by a lot and is faster to boot. But moving on to the subject of "finding at every second lowsec gate", let me remind you that you can find the DRAKE at every second lowsec gate these days - and you have been able to for several years now. The Drake was a better pirate ship than the 5 ogre myrm ever thought of being, and we can see which one got nerfed. As I've said - there are tons of good PVP choices if you fly Caldari. I may be slightly disappointed with some of them - but to claim that Caldari isn't as good pound for pound as any other race is an outright fabrication and lie. Anyone spouting that nonsense is deluding themselves. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
Zions Child Caldari Carthage Industries Consortium.	Posted - 2010.03.13 21:29:00 - [136] This thread made me want to buy a rattlesnake. I love how Caldari ships are pretty much the best at gang-based PvP. I will say, though, that I wish the t1 frigates were better _________________________________________________________________ You just lost the game, my friend... Wrong! - Cortes
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2010.03.14 14:43:00 - [137] Edited by: Naomi Knight on 14/03/2010 14:43:40 Oh so many ppl saying rattlesnake is fine because its tank is awesome,so can you post that awesome fit pls? Btw caldari ships are the 3rd best race for gang warfare,best is amarr then matar. Poor gallente is the last. Oh if you think they are so good for gang warfare why do you think that?
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2010.03.14 14:54:00 - [138] I pretty like active fit /in eft,in reality im poor and cant afford it/ : [Rattlesnake, New Setup 1] Power Diagnostic System II Power Diagnostic System II Power Diagnostic System II Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Damage Control II Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field Pith A-Type X-Large Shield Booster Imperial Navy Heavy Capacitor Booster, Navy Cap Booster 800 Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I Dark Blood Warp Scrambler 100MN MicroWarpdrive II Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Torpedo Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I Large Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II Large Core Defence Capacitor safeguard II Large Core Defence Capacitor safeguard II 900 dps, 2,5k tank. But buffer with 350k ehp is nice too /swap sb and cap booster for 2x lse - i know without cap booster its not optimal, but that lse means 50k ehp/.
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2010.03.14 15:02:00 - [139] Quote: Caldari had one outstanding ship: the Raven, for PvE. When was the last time Caldari had something like the 8 HS Geddon or the Gankmega, you could find four years ago at every second lowsec gate ? Cruise kestrel?
Math'ra Hiede Amarr Capital Ships Inc. Deathadder Coalition	Posted - 2010.03.15 13:24:00 - [140] Originally by: Gypsio III Those Raven and Rokh fits are utterly ****ed. PEBKAC.** Bolded the amusing bit, quite true o/\o (highfive)

Brown Chugar	Posted - 2010.03.16 05:42:00 - [141] Originally by: RavenPaine So I'm wanting to train a Pirate BS . I'm looking at them and I discover : Vindicator has 8 turret slots and gets a 37.5% bonus to damage. 5 Heavy drones. Nightmare gets 4 turrets with 100% bonus , and additional Caldari BS damage bonus. 3 Heavy drones Bhaalgorn gets 4 turrets with 100% bonus. Some sick energy neuts , and 3 Heavy drones. Machariel gets 7 turrets with 25% Rof bonus and additional (25%) Minnie BS Damage bonus. Rattlesnake gets 4 launcher hardpoints with no damage bonus , and 5 Heavy drones . It gets a drone bonus....but it must surely be shy of at least 3 launchers to be even close to equal . CCP whats up ? Anybody else , am I missing something ? Consider the following: Pirate Battleships that have lost missile hard points and/or missile bonuses over the last few expansions: Rattlesnake Machariel Nightmare That's 3 of 5 iirc. If you were highly trained in missiles and owned or were training to own one of these ships at the time the changes were made, might you not feel shafted? This is of course only considering Battleships. Not saying I agree with OP that CCP hates Caldari, but there is a there....there.
RavenPaine	Posted - 2010.03.16 07:42:00 - [142] You have full understanding of the OP . Thanks for that. I was "in training" for a pirate ship . I wanted a missile platform for DPS , Heavy Drones are awsome in addition . I was dissapointed in what I found. 950ish DPS... It felt like a shaft indeed. Last 4 words in the OP: "Am I missing something ?" Yes I was , the amazing tank on the Rattle. (and something between my chair and the keyboard ) I cant get the numbers ingame , that I get in EFT , but its still substantial over anything I normally fly. I saw a couple fits posted here that are very similar to how I will fit the thing . TBH I need about another billion'five to fit it right .


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