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Tyrannis speculation & Market implications.

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Wyke Mossari Gallente Staner Industries	Posted - 2010.03.20 14:23:00 - [1] Edited by: Wyke Mossari on 20/03/2010 14:32:54 We already have an Tyrannis insurance thread but other aspects of it are starting to pop all over, so to keep and the various discussions focused & organised and in CCP Hammer's words in livin' on a prayer Quote: ... enterprising young hackers will be poring over ... raw game data in an attempt to theorycraft the latest scoop about Tyrannis So to get things rolling ... A few Dev Blog Hints Quote: ... a suitable planet via a scanning interface then plunks down various things we have internally been calling PINs (planetary interaction node), links those PINs together and then configures routes for all of the stuff moving between the PINs. ... Planetary Command Center. The PCC is your base of operations for all of your infrastructure on a given planet. Sounds a lot like Reaction POS to me. PCC=Control Tower, PIM=Starbase Modules. Further mentions of extractor and storage underline the similarity. Quote: All kinds of process PINS for all kinds of processes which use all kinds of schematics (subject to change of course). You will be mixing and matching various resources and commodities based on those schematics to come up with intermediate commodities to eventually create final products. Some final products can be produced entirely on one planet but most will require transport to other planets to be produced. schematics sound a lot like Reaction blueprints. Expectations What PIMs would we expect to see on planets? I just going to brain dump a list. Housing (Cities, Towns, Villages, Colony outposts). Natural Resource Harvesters - Water, O2. Farms (Arable, Livestock) - Frozen Plant Seeds, Soil, Fertilizer, Wheat, Livestock Mines - Carbon, Silicon, Construction Blocks. Factories - Coolant, Electronic Parts, Mechanical Parts, Robotics. Defence -(High-Tech) Small Arms, Marines Launch Facility - Rocket Fuel. Tyrannis speculation If CCP wish to replace NPC goods with player produced goods, then quite a lot of Consumer Products, Industrial Goods look like good candidates as base and intermediate. IMHO the most likely candidates for final products, are the NPC goods used in the construction and maintenance of Outposts and POS. Observations on Singularity To follow.
Wyke Mossari Gallente Staner Industries	Posted - 2010.03.20 14:24:00 - [2] -- Reserved for future expansion --
Rosenoern	Posted - 2010.03.20 14:35:00 - [3] 10,000,000 ISK says freedom fighters can only be used on planets using slaves in the workforce :) my 2 cents
seany1212 Stylo Corporation	Posted - 2010.03.20 14:35:00 - [4] Wrong. Check out singularity and the planetary interaction, PCC are modules that you cant even purchase yet on TQ and are nothing like control towers with the exception that all the other nodes are linked up to it and cant be put down without it. You guys make squeeky noises when you pop, and that's enough motivation as far as I'm concerned.
Bitty Bit	Posted - 2010.03.20 14:42:00 - [5] how about reactors that change t1 salvage into t2 stuff? they said they wanted to fit that in somewhere a while ago, no?
Rosenoern	Posted - 2010.03.20 15:13:00 - [6] Alright. Since noone is gonna be posting i might as well get serious. I think you're pretty much right Wyke. They said that the different "districts" on a planet had to work together in order to work well. They also mentioned something about pollution at the convention. I take it that for your planet to give out maximum profits you will need to work together with the other districts like this: You own a factory district, but you can't produce as much as you want because a part of your district has to be given over to food-production. Now if you could make a deal with your neighbor about producing food for you, so you could concentrate your entire district on producing robotics, coal, w/e. Now if your district pollutes too much it will "spill over" into the neighboring districts and could conceivably destroy their industry (depending on what it is). Livestock has never been too fond of battery acid. They could then be forced to "ally" with some of the other district holders to fight you, or bully you into get more environmentally friendly. another 2 cents
Grozen Caldari Titan Core	Posted - 2010.03.20 18:38:00 - [7] Its too early to tell and ccp might change a lot of things before it comes out, but there's one thing you'll need for sure- ISK, a lot of it since there will be new isk sinks for skills, structure and god knows what else knowledge is power
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.03.20 18:42:00 - [8] It's also not something we really care for, because nothing is likely to INCREASE in price (at least not at the beginning), and there's no good, practical way to short stocks in EVE. _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Di Mulle	Posted - 2010.03.20 19:08:00 - [9] My Tyrannis speculation about market implications is quite simple (if we speak about PI only): there will be no serious or even noticeable implications on market. Seriously, should we expect huge importance of wheat ? or quafe ?
cosmoray Bella Vista Holdings Corp	Posted - 2010.03.20 19:56:00 - [10] I foresee this being like the Orca, everyone buys the BPO. If it is all stuff that is NPC, who will care. Need to see the nuts and bolts before speculating too much
Wyke Mossari Gallente Staner Industries	Posted - 2010.03.20 20:37:00 - [11] Some interesting comments, a few I want to come back on. I expect the planets environments to be quite viariable. A quick survey of Hek has revealed the following planet types: 2xdesert, a volcanic, 2x bluish probable water worlds, 3x probable gas giants and an Eden world. Producing food on a gas giant or desert world seems unlikely, but these could be rich sources for charging hydrogen batteries or producing Silicon. Eden worlds would be good at producing food, or perhaps being a holiday resort. Those Tourists must be going somewhere. Originally by: Grozen Its too early to tell and ccp might change a lot of things before it comes out, but there's one thing you'll need for sure- ISK, a lot of it since there will be new isk sinks for skills, structure and god knows what else Early, yes; too early, no. A lot will change, but theory crafting is half the fun, and as time progresses, and more detail emerges, plans can start to formulate. Those new skills will probably require pre-requisites that might be trained before hand, if we can work them out. Also accumulating Originally by: Akita T It's also not something we really care for, because nothing is likely to INCREASE in price (at least not at the beginning), and there's no good, practical way to short stocks in EVE. Is that the royal we? or are you being coy about what you've worked out ? I've spotted two small groups of items that are almost certain to rise, especially at the beginning before production ramps up. Aside from planet interaction a new class of T3 hull seems more likely than not, with a corresponding increase in the demand for T3 supplies. I'm clearly not the only one to think that because that T3 supplies market has livened up considerably in the last couple of weeks.
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.03.20 21:15:00 - [12] Originally by: Wyke Mossari Originally by: Akita T It's also not something we really care for, because nothing is likely to INCREASE in price (at least not at the beginning), and there's no good, practical way to short stocks in EVE. Is that the royal we? or are you being coy about what you've worked out ? I've spotted two small groups of items that are almost certain to rise, especially at the beginning before production ramps up. No I'm not going to lay them out but I do expect others to work them out. Nah, just the regular collective "we". I hope you're not assuming that NPC orders would get removed (as opposed to just having PI as an alternative supply method), because I find it very unlikely for that to happen at the very start. Later, when they see that production has ramped up sufficiently to undercut NPC orders, they may do that, eventually... but not from the get-go. So, no, I don't expect any items to go up in price after Tyrannis, quite the opposite. Unless you're talking industrials (mostly T2 versions) and freighters, but I seriously doubt a significant rise in price will occur in any of them... most likely just a blip lost in the regular randomness of price fluctuation, smaller than the one after Dominion. _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Grozen Caldari Titan Core	Posted - 2010.03.20 21:24:00 - [13] Actually i speculate freigthers to drop in price cuz nano parts are avaible for building on planets atm. Heres some : Item Produced (Materials needed) - Auxiliary building needed Nanomechanical Parts (gold, carbon) - 2 Harvesters + Factory Nanoelectrical Parts (silver, carbon) - 2 Harvesters + Factory Nano Computer Core (Nano Electrical Parts, Silicon) - Harvester + Factory Ionized Water (Water) - Water Processing Plant Aluminium Nitrade (Aluminium, Nitrogen) - Harvester + Vapour Collector + Chemical Plant Aluminium Nitrade Paste (Alum. Nitr., Ionized Water) - Chemical Plant Nanites (Nano Mech Parts, Nano Elec Parts, Nano Comp Core) - Factory Nanite Repair Paste (Nanites, Alum. Nitr. Paste) - Factory knowledge is power
Di Mulle	Posted - 2010.03.21 00:01:00 - [14] Originally by: Grozen Edited by: Grozen on 20/03/2010 21:44:58 Edited by: Grozen on 20/03/2010 21:40:13 Actually i speculate freigthers to drop in price cuz nano parts are avaible for building on planets atm. Heres some : Item Produced (Materials needed) - Auxiliary building needed Nanomechanical Parts (gold, carbon) - 2 Harvesters + Factory Nanoelectrical Parts (silver, carbon) - 2 Harvesters + Factory Nano Computer Core (Nano Electrical Parts, Silicon) - Harvester + Factory ... Even if these materials will be actual ones to produce - what they have to do with demand for freighters ? Do they replace something that is now carried in freighters ?
Di Mulle	Posted - 2010.03.21 00:46:00 - [15] Edited by: Di Mulle on 21/03/2010 00:52:05 Originally by: Wyke Mossari Edited by: Wyke Mossari on 20/03/2010 20:55:49 Originally by: Di Mulle My Tyrannis speculation about market implications is quite simple (if we speak about PI only): there will be no serious or even noticeable implications on market. Seriously, should we expect huge importance of wheat ? or quafe ? If those did become PC only sourced goods, they become as important as any mineral or moon goo or other traded goods. Though I don't see Amarrian Wheat or Quafe in that category. Assuming there is a bottle neck and I was in the design teams shoes, I would make that bottleneck people. No, these goods will remain unimportant. TL/DR version - because they are unimportant now. Your idea about colonists sounds good and I think it is in plans - though later dev statement hints it is possible they will not make that in time Nevertheless, in a big picture colonists are rather unimportant as well. Here's why. Game in EVE revolves around building ships and blowing them. So only things that are important are that needed for making/blowing ships. That includes various infrastructure, implants as well, ofc. Granted, some people may fully wander into planets and care about quantity and quality of colonists, natural life and whatever. From outside point of view they will barely exist at all. It does not matter what processes will go inside planets for use inside planets - be it building of factories, pipes, museums, space elevators or brothels. Nano nitrades or other clever named stuff. The only thing what matters is what comes out as final product. Now, if CCP will not make one thing I will talk later, any of possible final products will not - or at least should not make a big impact on economy. Let's review options. It can be ISK. For example, you grow Wheat and sell for NPC orders. Done a bigger scale it would be stupid thing to do, and I doubt CCP aims for this. Minerals? we have more than enough. Moongoo ? apart some minor twitches to remove drastic bottlenecks there is no point to make them. T2 industry is well established, also, it is kind of one of corner stones for wars. T3 ? it belongs to WH and sleepers. Also, T3 is yet in it's infancy. At least demand for T3 is not near to T1 and T2. T3 frigates will be rather small T3 industry expansion when implemented. That leaves us with commodities under "industrial goods" category (let's notice that consumer goods are unimportant). There are 2 important enough groups. One is goods used in T2 production directly - like hydrogen batteries and such. However, their cost in final product is minuscule. So no big impact on economy there. Another is POS fuel. It is more noticeable, but again, they make only about 1/6 POS running costs. So, again, some impact, definitely not a big one.
Di Mulle	Posted - 2010.03.21 01:20:00 - [16] Edited by: Di Mulle on 21/03/2010 01:24:29 Another reason is that long standing policy of EVE is to not obsolete current inventory by introducing new generation. But already existing generations largely cover most areas already - so it is only niches what left. Or, as another possibility, T4 may be some very expensive stuff with very very diminishing return. Even then it is dangerous because of "power inflation". Enough people have enough ISK. Because of that, my assumption is that even in unlikely event if T4 would be released, its' share will be rather small. Just another option would be making some big part of the game obsolete; say, relocating ice production to planets. Thus eliminating huge investments in ships, training time and game time spent. Or, making T1 obsolete... or something like that. Rather bold and goes against what EVE stood for do far.
Mire Stoude The Undesirables	Posted - 2010.03.21 02:15:00 - [17] I was thinking that datacores may be something produced from PI (and the current system phased out very soon afterwards).
Carniflex StarHunt Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2010.03.21 09:48:00 - [18] Edited by: Carniflex on 21/03/2010 09:52:57 Originally by: Mire Stoude I was thinking that datacores may be something produced from PI (and the current system phased out very soon afterwards). While it is entirely possible that datacores might be produced also in planets (although it seems a bit unlikely to me) removal of passive R&D generation seems quite remote possibility. I do not see that happening until CCP removes T2 BPO's from the game, and while I would just love to see that it's also something I am not holding my breath over. Unlike T2 BPO's people had actually to work for those R&D agents not just be first one to arrive at server and win lottery by figuring out how the 'random' number generator works (as CCP 'random' number generator seems not to be too random). Or do moongoo exploit themselves to trillions of isk, buy pile of them and then ... khm ... 'scam' those out of the exploiting character with unnamed alts that do not get nailed when exploiting chars get banned. Or just get them spawned for them by their dev friends like T20. They will propably evetually get rid of those BPO's as they have hinted on several occasions that this is possibility I do not think they will do that in immediate future. Until they do it is in their best interest to keep datacore prices as low as possible to keep the volume of 'can't compete with T2 BPO's' whines low.
Martosh Toma Gallente Fraction Investment	Posted - 2010.03.21 10:26:00 - [19] Carnifex, could you please link where you found ccp hinting at removing t2 bpo's? All mentionings by ccp I have seen on the subject are either weakly or even strongly opposing that removal. Most recently by the recident economist on fanfest something in the line of: Why would we want to remove something people aquired in game spending billions to get a small advantage? Closest is have seen ccp post anything on removing t2 bpo is an old post (2006 perhaps?) where they stated they might change them into (high run) bpc's but not before allowing research on bpc's including an option to add runs to them. T2 bpo's are now unique and rare items, much like the pleasure yaught or the state issue raven. and will not be respawned if destroyed. So if you want them out, bid on the auctions to buy the ones availeble and trash them.
clixoras	Posted - 2010.03.21 10:34:00 - [20] Originally by: Di Mulle As a consequence, PI will not be a major ISK or material sink so many speak about. There will be nothing to sink it for. continued well said. i totally agree with your points.
Carniflex StarHunt Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2010.03.21 11:15:00 - [21] Originally by: Martosh Toma Carnifex, could you please link where you found ccp hinting at removing t2 bpo's? Closest is have seen ccp post anything on removing t2 bpo is an old post (2006 perhaps?) where they stated they might change them into (high run) bpc's but not before allowing research on bpc's including an option to add runs to them. Don't have links saved, but there have been few remarks in threads related to invention. Mostly when invention was still being implemented. The one you mention among them. Dunno if it was 2006 or 2007, somewhere around that time indeed. During the last year or so they have no longer posted things that would hint possibility of removing T2 BPO's. I have not lost hope entirely just yet tho. And T2 BPO's are a bit different than State Raven or other unique ships. State Raven just sits there in someones hangar, while T2 BPO's gives owner some definite (but small) advantage. Things is Invention is not competing against T2 BPO's - Invention fulfills demand that T2 BPO's can't meet. That is different from competing, as when T2 BPO is able to meet the demand for the item then Invention of that item is pointless. Anyway - this thread is not the right place to lament about T2 BPO's . Most points (including 'they are like state raven') have been debated over the years over and over again and the T2 BPO's 'issue' is not something that people can come to agreement in forums. Sometimes one just have to agree to disagree. At this point it is design decision only dev's can do. Until they do there will be threads where on one side people (like me) argue against them presenting same arguments over and over again and on other side people who support T2 BPO's (for example Venkul) present same arguments (and counterarguments) in support of those over and over again. Main point of my post was that I find it unlikely that datacores would be produced in planetary interaction. I just got a bit carried away when answering and took a swing at T2 BPO's also.
Di Mulle	Posted - 2010.03.21 11:47:00 - [22] Originally by: Mire Stoude I was thinking that datacores may be something produced from PI (and the current system phased out very soon afterwards). Phasing out current system, thus destroying huge investments made by thousands of players (not even speaking about tons of pure research alts, who's accounts will go poof in a day) ? And what for ?
Clair Bear Ursine Research and Production	Posted - 2010.03.21 22:35:00 - [23] Who keeps their datacore alt accounts active anyway? At least for more than a month or two a year. And in summary, bigger blobs are the answer. Now what was the question?
JitaPriceChecker2	Posted - 2010.03.21 23:13:00 - [24] Originally by: Di Mulle Phasing out current system, thus destroying huge investments made by thousands of players (not even speaking about tons of pure research alts, who's accounts will go poof in a day) ? And what for ? You mean those accounts that are inactive ? Oh yeah that will be very big hit for numbers of ACTIVE subscribers.
Sturmwolke	Posted - 2010.03.23 15:26:00 - [25] If PI also includes Meta item production as part of the parcel, then that might explain in part the T2 BPO sell/buy activity lately - I wonder. If that gets confirmed, then we see cheaper Meta 4 items > increased invention chances > cheaper invention costs > general drop in datacore pricing > cheaper T2 items. Only thing that might not get too damaged are the T2 ship BPOs owners, afaik. CCP will either need to drastically alter the invention mechanics for this to happen or drop datacore prices to pennies (which may or may not be realistic).
Celia Therone	Posted - 2010.03.23 18:17:00 - [26] Skill training books is one possibility. Build schools and universities on your planets, supply them with research materials, set research priorities and receive (random?) skill training books on some schedule. You'd have to assume an isk upkeep on the facilities (rent or purchase cost of research materials from npcs) to balance the current isk sink of skill books. Note that I don't really think that this will happen. Planets clearly have a huge opportunity to go in an awesome civ/sim planet direction but it looks increasingly likely that instead it's going to be POSOP (POS on Planet) with some tweaks and a new ui.
Rosenoern	Posted - 2010.03.24 10:35:00 - [27] Originally by: Di Mulle My Tyrannis speculation about market implications is quite simple (if we speak about PI only): there will be no serious or even noticeable implications on market. Seriously, should we expect huge importance of wheat ? or quafe ? So there is no chance that food will be necessary to keep a colony running? There is no chance that Amarrian Wheat will be more effective than regular? There is no chance that population happiness will play a factor in productivity? There is no chance that Quafe will play a part in making your workers happier? (luxury goods) Seriously dude You are dismissing Tyrannis' effect on the market before even considering the possibilities... Now i agree that it might not change within the first 2 days of expansion but c'mon... I bet they got something big in store for us... They aren't gonna open up planetary interaction with a slow fizzle
Alice Celadon	Posted - 2010.03.24 11:17:00 - [28] I'll bury my advice in this thread since no one will listen anyway. Buy up as much cheap tech three salvage as you can now.
Iosue Gangrel Mining and Security High Treason Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.24 15:17:00 - [29] i wonder if minerals might be used in PI production to offset the recent oversupply currently flooding the market?
Di Mulle	Posted - 2010.03.24 15:18:00 - [30] Edited by: Di Mulle on 24/03/2010 15:23:38 Edited by: Di Mulle on 24/03/2010 15:18:20 Originally by: Rosenoern So there is no chance that food will be necessary to keep a colony running? There is no chance that Amarrian Wheat will be more effective than regular? There is no chance that population happiness will play a factor in productivity? There is no chance that Quafe will play a part in making your workers happier? (luxury goods) Seriously dude Seriously dude, start thinking or at least read my other post All your wheats and condoms indeed MAY be important for your population and what not. I hope they will actually. But, unless you are going to play a game barely linked with the rest of EVE, your population itself is not important. Only important thing what this population and the rest of planetary stuff will produce for use outside of planets. (And I have serious doubts all this population thing will be even implemented in first release.) Originally by: Rosenoern You are dismissing Tyrannis' effect on the market before even considering the possibilities... Actually, that is what you do Praising Tyrannis market before even considering the possibilities. Originally by: Rosenoern I bet they got something big in store for us... They aren't gonna open up planetary interaction with a slow fizzle I bet they got something small in store for us. And I am afraid they will get us something big later, in a knee-jerk reaction, thus hurting some parts of EVE.
Di Mulle	Posted - 2010.03.24 15:24:00 - [31] Originally by: Iosue i wonder if minerals might be used in PI production to offset the recent oversupply currently flooding the market? PI production of WHAT ?
Iosue Gangrel Mining and Security High Treason Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.24 18:56:00 - [32] Edited by: Iosue on 24/03/2010 18:57:21 Originally by: Di Mulle Originally by: Iosue i wonder if minerals might be used in PI production to offset the recent oversupply currently flooding the market? PI production of WHAT ? i dunno, possibly meta 1-4 items or industrial goods. edit: quotes!
Clair Bear Ursine Research and Production	Posted - 2010.03.24 19:11:00 - [33] Production for the sake of production is pointless. There needs to be a reason for consumption. I can see POS fuels (and NPC goods used in t2 production) being possible products. Possibly POS and outpost structures. But that's about it. Meta 1-3 is not very valuable as is, and if players could produce unlimited amounts of meta4 here would be zero reason to build the others in the general case (yes, I know there are a handful of very specific fits where other than meta4 or tech2 is useful). The big reason is: will there be unlimited markets for the products (read: NPC buy orders), or will we once again be faced with massive production overcapacity? My bets are on "massive overcapacity." Combine that with the insurance crutch being kicked out and I predict many an industrial alt will be converted to fly a Drake. And in summary, bigger blobs are the answer. Now what was the question?
Miati Leekon	Posted - 2010.03.24 21:54:00 - [34] Edited by: Miati Leekon on 24/03/2010 22:02:49 Originally by: Clair Bear Production for the sake of production is pointless. There needs to be a reason for consumption. I can see POS fuels (and NPC goods used in t2 production) being possible products. Possibly POS and outpost structures. But that's about it. Meta 1-3 is not very valuable as is, and if players could produce unlimited amounts of meta4 here would be zero reason to build the others in the general case (yes, I know there are a handful of very specific fits where other than meta4 or tech2 is useful). The big reason is: will there be unlimited markets for the products (read: NPC buy orders), or will we once again be faced with massive production overcapacity? My bets are on "massive overcapacity." Combine that with the insurance crutch being kicked out and I predict many an industrial alt will be converted to fly a Drake. CCP already has the mineral market screwed up, there are npc buy orders for the worm stuff, worms have turned into another elite fighting province and "stuff" gets dumped, the whole mess lacks some kind of coherent overview and I don't think CCP cares about that; they only care about "make work" thingies and this is the latest. Next is "spice" and "Dune." If they make a Ferengi race then I'll start to take this stuff seriously. PS- Forgot to mention what was overheard in the secret room "Everyone has been bugging us about the market; well we got this done now back to real work on whether or not to adjust autocannon Exp damage up by 0.15% while reducing the explosion radius by 0.3% and readjusting shield formula calucations by maxamizing the potential for interactivity with enviromental space disturbance factors adjusted by the capacity for the new target painter disruption sphere variances, and then considering the armor resistances in the formula, and don't forget we have to deal with naked armor resists as well."
Mistah Ewedynao Gallente	Posted - 2010.03.25 04:49:00 - [35] Originally by: Alice Celadon I'll bury my advice in this thread since no one will listen anyway. Buy up as much cheap tech three salvage as you can now. Oh mighty MD soothsayer...explain for a mere mortal.... WTF does a possible T1 adjustment have to do with WH exploration, drop rates, activity???? Do you possibly have a large inventory of T3 salvage?
Alice Celadon	Posted - 2010.03.25 08:12:00 - [36] Edited by: Alice Celadon on 25/03/2010 08:13:37 I've sunk way too much isk into t3 salvage, yes. It's really just a hunch. I have a lot of reasons behind the hunch that stem from my understanding of what CCP wants to encourage with regards to small corporate entities (which is really what WH space is all about if you look at it from a developer's perspective -- a fully functional, self-sustaining framework for 20-30 man corps). At the very least, I'm banking on a popular line of ~100mil. t3 frigates. That alone would make my investment grow tenfold. I suspect t3 production is going to expand in other directions as well (we can only have this super-advanced tech around for so long before the engineers find all sorts of uses for it, right?? :] ). If I'm right about that last bit, expect some gloating from me in a few months. Actually, that bit I just wrote about the t3 production expanding into other production comes not from the devblogs, but a few chronicles -- an excellent source of information, no doubt. :) By the way, I'm not involved in the recent, silly, crashtastic attempts to manipulate the cheaper t3 salvage. Those chaps are feeding off me not reselling what I'm buying. The margins they're attempting to manipulate at pale in comparison to the spread I'm expecting in a few months.
Di Mulle	Posted - 2010.03.25 09:01:00 - [37] Originally by: Iosue Edited by: Iosue on 24/03/2010 18:57:21 Originally by: Di Mulle Originally by: Iosue i wonder if minerals might be used in PI production to offset the recent oversupply currently flooding the market? PI production of WHAT ? i dunno, possibly meta 1-4 items or industrial goods. edit: quotes! As for meta 1-4 items, next poster already mentioned problems it may cause. Though, who knows. Next, industrial goods are pretty safe bet. Now can you make a next logical step and compare consumption of industrial goods (it is big) with supply of minerals (hint: much much bigger). Then you will see how succesful sink of materials it can be.
Krathos Morpheus Legion Infernal	Posted - 2010.03.25 12:04:00 - [38] Originally by: Alice Celadon At the very least, I'm banking on a popular line of ~100mil. t3 frigates. That doesn't looks like cheap to me. At fanfest they said that t3 frigs were next and that they were going to be cheap. Affordable to lose or something like that, I don't have the video at hand right now to see their exact words. EVEwatch Sidebar soon "It is the unofficial force ù the Jita irregulars. "
HeliosGal Caldari	Posted - 2010.03.25 12:16:00 - [39] comets were meant to be coming to ....... silence of the lambs Interesting Signature - CCP what this game needs is more variance in PVE aspects and a little bit less PVP focus, more content more varied level 1-4 missions more than just 10 per faction high sec low sec and 00
Mistah Ewedynao Gallente	Posted - 2010.03.25 22:02:00 - [40] Originally by: Alice Celadon Edited by: Alice Celadon on 25/03/2010 08:13:37 I've sunk way too much isk into t3 salvage, yes. It's really just a hunch. I have a lot of reasons behind the hunch that stem from my understanding of what CCP wants to encourage with regards to small corporate entities (which is really what WH space is all about if you look at it from a developer's perspective -- a fully functional, self-sustaining framework for 20-30 man corps). At the very least, I'm banking on a popular line of ~100mil. t3 frigates. That alone would make my investment grow tenfold. I suspect t3 production is going to expand in other directions as well (we can only have this super-advanced tech around for so long before the engineers find all sorts of uses for it, right?? :] ). If I'm right about that last bit, expect some gloating from me in a few months. Actually, that bit I just wrote about the t3 production expanding into other production comes not from the devblogs, but a few chronicles -- an excellent source of information, no doubt. :) By the way, I'm not involved in the recent, silly, crashtastic attempts to manipulate the cheaper t3 salvage. Those chaps are feeding off me not reselling what I'm buying. The margins they're attempting to manipulate at pale in comparison to the spread I'm expecting in a few months. Thanks, nice explanation.
Di Mulle	Posted - 2010.03.25 22:45:00 - [41] Edited by: Di Mulle on 25/03/2010 22:45:37 Originally by: Alice Celadon [ At the very least, I'm banking on a popular line of ~100mil. t3 frigates. 100 mil sounds quite high for me... Though this makes some interesting thoughts. From one side, T1 cruiser/frigate price ratio is roughly 10:1, T2 about 5-7:1. You forecast 3:1 for T3. For 100 mil price tag it should be quite an overkill in small ships' class, or they will not be so popular. And we have AF and EAF which still struggle for place under the sun... From the other side, current T3 production framework is not good to manipulate with material requirements. Subsystems take literally 1 of each component. If CCP will keep this approach, T3 frig will end with 200-ish mil price tag, hehe
Alice Celadon	Posted - 2010.03.26 08:20:00 - [42] Originally by: Di Mulle ... From the other side, current T3 production framework is not good to manipulate with material requirements. Subsystems take literally 1 of each component. If CCP will keep this approach, T3 frig will end with 200-ish mil price tag, hehe Yes. Well, let's be precise. Offensive and Defensive subs take 6 melted nanoribbons. All other subs take 2 melted nanoribbons. The former also take some expensive polymers, whose price seems to be dictated by people bothering to actually run WH Ladar sites [oscillates between 800k and 1 mil]. All other material costs are for the most part negligible. I'll let the savvy marketeer go run the numbers on what would happen if the frigates took 2 melted nanoribbons for def and off, and 1 melted nanoribbon for the others (or maybe no melted nanoribbons). [Hint: right now, there are a lot of empty wormholes.] By the way, if t3 frigates stabilize at 50-80 million and their material requirements are anywhere in line with the cruiser variant, I will be ecstatic.
Di Mulle	Posted - 2010.03.26 09:58:00 - [43] Edited by: Di Mulle on 26/03/2010 09:59:09 Originally by: Alice Celadon By the way, if t3 frigates stabilize at 50-80 million and their material requirements are anywhere in line with the cruiser variant, I will be ecstatic. 50-80 seems rather good for me. But you don't make subsystems directly from nanoribbons. In order to change requirements for raw materials you need new set of T3 components. That shows how badly planned T3 introduction was, without looking more than one step ahead - as there we see how badly suited it is for scaling. For a rather good example look at T2 or rigs. Current price distribution of raw materials makes it even worse. You will struggle to adjust "intended" price when there are literally a couple parameters to adjust, and they are so discrete. Hm... is this a hint that T3 frigs will be made of different materials after all ?
SencneS Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks	Posted - 2010.03.26 14:45:00 - [44] Edited by: SencneS on 26/03/2010 14:46:03 Don't get sucked into T3 talk.. Devs have said that are NOT going to be changing any current markets... Since T3 is a current market Planetary Interaction will have NOTHING to do with T3... Anyone that dumped money into T3 speculation about this just flushed ISK into the toilet. Evidence of claim made on what Dev said.. Originally by: Torfi Frans +lafsson is Senior Producer at CCP TTH: There's been some talk on the forums about planetary interaction replacing NPC-seeded products on the market. The materials like skillbooks and so forth that players aren't producing, but that show up on the market anyway. Can you quash those rumors? Torfi: No, I can't. Because that's what we really want to do. But we are probably not going to change all that overnight. One of our goals with planetary interaction is to phase out these NPC created commodities, because we want to put the power into the hands of the players and make EVE even more sandbox-y than it is. There are elements of EVE which we feel can use some iteration based on the experiences that we have learned, running EVE for seven years. The NPC market is definitely one of them. It's been with us for a long time. It hasn't changed much. We want to take these commodities and move them into the hands of the players. We are not giving out publicly yet which commodities these are. Even once we put it on the public test server, you will not be able to see what these final commodities are going to be. TTH: Will the planets have some manufacturing and research possibilities that are currently done on stations? Torfi: They won't have the same, no. We are not going to be competing with the industry, research and manufacturing on the stations. And they're not going to be competing with mining. We are not replacing any of these game systems. They will be a separate ecosystem, so to speak. If they focusing on replacing NPC items why would they consider competing with an already effective market. There is no shortage of T3 materials, anyone to go to a number of market hubs and buy even basic materials to build a T3 CRUISER in under an hour.. There is by far more then enough materials to build FRIGATES! Anyone that is speculating T3 for Planetary Interaction doesn't know T3 market or at least doesn't actually build any of it, and clearly have not read anything or watch ANY videos from the Devs about it. I say that because T3 cruisers don't require much material to build in the first place.. Did any of you actually LOOK at a T3 BPC or the subsystems. Remember the Cruise itself is usless without subsystems, making those subsystems PART of the ship. Here I'll help everyone out - Here are the BASIC materials needed for a ANY Cruiser with all Five subsystems. Minerals:- 9,500x Tritanium 7,600x Pyerite 3,600x Mexallon 1,710x Isogen 1,080x Nocxium 195x Zydrine 240x Megacyte Salvage:- (What everyone thinks Planetary Interaction will be about... ) 1x Cartesian Temporal Coordinator 1x Central System Controller 1x Defensive Control Node 273x Electromechanical Hull Sheeting 1x Emergent Combat Analyzer 1x Emergent Combat Intelligence 1x Fused Nanomechanical Engines 1x Heuristic Selfassemblers 1x Jump Drive Control Nexus 40x Melted Nanoribbons 287x Modified Fluid Router 52x Neurovisual Input Matrix 91x Powdered C-540 Graphite 1x Resonance Calibration Matrix 1x Thermoelectric Catalysts GASES:- 400x Fullerite - C28 500x Fullerite - C32 1,000x Fullerite - C50 500x Fullerite - C60 300x Fullerite - C70 500x Fullerite - C72 400x Fullerite - C84 400x Fullerite - C320 300x Fullerite - C540 OMG THE MATERIALS DEMAND IS INCREDIBLE!! QUICK EVERYONE BUY IT ALL UP!! Amarr for Life
cosmoray Bella Vista Holdings Corp	Posted - 2010.03.26 15:12:00 - [45] I tell you what excites a major industrialist like me. The opportunity to go down on a planet and build a FARM!!! Making ships that fly in space can get boring. I want to grow livestock, and live in a wattle and daub hut like my ancestors did about 500 years ago. I better get the chicken feed skill book trained up. Even though everyone will know Cosmo Cows are very best Kobe.
Alice Celadon	Posted - 2010.03.26 22:15:00 - [46] Originally by: SencneS Stuff. Actually I don't care enough to respond, but you may want to edit your post b/c right now it makes you look ridiculous. My favorite part: "There is no shortage of T3 materials, anyone to go to a number of market hubs and buy even basic materials to build a T3 CRUISER in under an hour.. There is by far more then enough materials to build FRIGATES!"
SencneS Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks	Posted - 2010.03.26 23:00:00 - [47] Originally by: Alice Celadon Actually I don't care enough to respond Apparently you do. So as you clearly do care enough to respond I'll make a concerted effort to indulge your concern for my public image. I don't know about you, but I have no problem getting buy orders filled within 8 hours to build any T3 cruiser/subsystem. You do realize that a T3 Frigate would only be able to reduce some material requirements, because you know you can't use "half" a unit of salvage to build a ship. Which means that the only salvage adjustments T3 frigates could change if CCP is lazy enough to not really care is... Electromechanical Hull Sheeting Melted Nanoribbons Modified Fluid Router Neurovisual Input Matrix Powdered C-540 Graphite Low can behold Melted Nanoribbons is in that list!!! At the moment Melted Nanoribbions make up between 74% and 78% the price of all completed Tech III ships. So all CCP would need to do is adjust the T3 Frigate's Melted Nanoribbons requirements.. On another note I want to say I hope you enjoy the Rage quit you'll go though, when it comes time you realized the magnitude of your failure. Have a nice day! Amarr for Life
Di Mulle	Posted - 2010.03.26 23:21:00 - [48] Edited by: Di Mulle on 26/03/2010 23:23:26 Edited by: Di Mulle on 26/03/2010 23:23:01 Originally by: SencneS stuff Actually, you can't lower requirements for nanoribbons or something else within current T3 framework with ease. For one, defensive and offensive subsystems each require 1 (and only 1) Neurovisual Output Analyzers, which already cost about 36 mil due to nanoribbons. You can't use half of component in production. It means that for T3 frigates at least new components with lesser raw material consumption needed to be introduced. In fact it is only unnecessary database cluttering and shows how poorly planned T3 introduction was. However, on a second thought it occurs to me that we are derailing a thread here There will be no T3 frigates in Tyrannis. Blog is silent about them and, if they would, we would have new artworks everywhere by this time. They are so good for hyping after all.
Alice Celadon	Posted - 2010.03.26 23:39:00 - [49] Originally by: SencneS Low can behold Melted Nanoribbons is in that list!!! At the moment Melted Nanoribbions make up between 74% and 78% the price of all completed Tech III ships. So all CCP would need to do is adjust the T3 Frigate's Melted Nanoribbons requirements.. On another note I want to say I hope you enjoy the Rage quit you'll go though, when it comes time you realized the magnitude of your failure. Have a nice day! Well now that I know that you care about your public image I will have a nice day :D. It's interesting that in your last two posts you've set up my argument for me. It makes me believe that you're not totally dumb, just cranky or temporarily daft. Currently, the market handles 100-140 t3 cruisers built and bought a day. Here are the salvage requirements, as you so assiduously posted. 1x Cartesian Temporal Coordinator 1x Central System Controller 1x Defensive Control Node 273x Electromechanical Hull Sheeting 1x Emergent Combat Analyzer 1x Emergent Combat Intelligence 1x Fused Nanomechanical Engines 1x Heuristic Selfassemblers 1x Jump Drive Control Nexus 40x Melted Nanoribbons 287x Modified Fluid Router 52x Neurovisual Input Matrix 91x Powdered C-540 Graphite 1x Resonance Calibration Matrix 1x Thermoelectric Catalysts Currently the bottleneck is melted nanoribbons. Now I laughed a little when you said "you can't use half a piece of salvage," because that's my point. Let's assume everything goes exactly the way I want it to. Here are the "Alice Celadon Ultrahappiness" salvage requirements for t3 frigs. 1x Cartesian Temporal Coordinator 1x Central System Controller 1x Defensive Control Node 27x Electromechanical Hull Sheeting 1x Emergent Combat Analyzer 1x Emergent Combat Intelligence 1x Fused Nanomechanical Engines 1x Heuristic Selfassemblers 1x Jump Drive Control Nexus 4x Melted Nanoribbons 28x Modified Fluid Router 5x Neurovisual Input Matrix 9x Powdered C-540 Graphite 1x Resonance Calibration Matrix 1x Thermoelectric Catalysts What happens to the salvage bottleneck if 400-500 of these start getting pumped out every day? Ok, I feel silly spelling it out for you, but you seem to have missed the point so far, so these 1x Cartesian Temporal Coordinator 1x Central System Controller 1x Defensive Control Node 1x Emergent Combat Analyzer 1x Emergent Combat Intelligence 1x Fused Nanomechanical Engines 1x Heuristic Selfassemblers 1x Jump Drive Control Nexus 1x Resonance Calibration Matrix 1x Thermoelectric Catalysts become the new bottleneck. Now the smart argument you should be making against me is "Blurf, whatever, CCP adjusts material drops all the time, remember the NIM/melty nano flip? They're probably going to adjust everything three times whenever t3 frigs are introduced. Buying up that salvage is really a crapshoot." The intriguing thing that ANY t3 producer whose made ANY t3 stuff EVER in their WHOLE life at ALL will know is that all of these salvage parts have been flowing into the market at ridiculous levels of excess (1000-1500 extra in the case of the subsystem salvage, 100-200 extra in the case of the hull salvage). It's almost as though CCP planned ahead this time. [HA! Probably not...but I can hope.] So SencneS, can Low Behold that?
LyghtCrye	Posted - 2010.03.26 23:39:00 - [50] So why has noone considered the obvious. T1 BPOs. Those will have an effect on the market, and are a big fat NPC good. Also dont forget that a lot of consumer goods and commodities may suddenly have a value when dust comes around, who knows how they plan to have the two economies interact after all.
SencneS Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks	Posted - 2010.03.27 02:22:00 - [51] Originally by: Alice Celadon 1x Cartesian Temporal Coordinator 1x Central System Controller 1x Defensive Control Node 1x Emergent Combat Analyzer 1x Emergent Combat Intelligence 1x Fused Nanomechanical Engines 1x Heuristic Selfassemblers 1x Jump Drive Control Nexus 1x Resonance Calibration Matrix 1x Thermoelectric Catalysts I guess it's refreshing sometimes to see some people throw caution to the wind and ignore the clues and hints given by those who have ultimate say. Amarr for Life
Di Mulle	Posted - 2010.03.27 02:25:00 - [52] Originally by: LyghtCrye So why has noone considered the obvious. T1 BPOs. Those will have an effect on the market, and are a big fat NPC good. Only indirect effect. You don't buy T1 BPO's on a market, you buy them on a special one, NPC market, which basically is ISK sink. Removing any ISk sink equals to new ISK faucet (though of lower volume, because production requires ISK investment, and probability is unknown. With mass access to planets probably not big). End result is some inflow of new ISK and reduced BPO prices. Originally by: LyghtCrye Also dont forget that a lot of consumer goods and commodities may suddenly have a value when dust comes around, who knows how they plan to have the two economies interact after all. Also don't forget that Dusties doesn't matter much by themselves. Can you make a simple logic chain ? If some your commodities suddenly will have value for Dusties you can either give it for free or sell for ISK. Now, where Dusties get ISK from ? From CCP. Thus, it is simple ISK faucet again. Only other way I can see is Dusties' involvement in sov wars (what was hinted, but kind of not so firmly). Then, alliances may need to pay ISK to Dusties. Result is a closed system, where planetary diggers have ISK at the expense of sov holders.
Wyke Mossari Gallente Staner Industries	Posted - 2010.03.27 11:25:00 - [53] Originally by: cosmoray I tell you what excites a major industrialist like me. The opportunity to go down on a planet and build a FARM!!! Kobe. I think most MD'ers could afford a country estate the size of, well, a country.
RAW23	Posted - 2010.03.27 11:41:00 - [54] Originally by: cosmoray I tell you what excites a major industrialist like me. The opportunity to go down on a planet and build a FARM!!! Making ships that fly in space can get boring. I want to grow livestock, and live in a wattle and daub hut like my ancestors did about 500 years ago. I better get the chicken feed skill book trained up. Even though everyone will know Cosmo Cows are very best Kobe. "Old McCosmo had a farm, Ee - I - Ee - EVE-O." 100mil prize for the best completed adaptation of this classic nursery rhyme.
Cyaxares II	Posted - 2010.03.27 12:19:00 - [55] Originally by: cosmoray I tell you what excites a major industrialist like me. The opportunity to go down on a planet and build a FARM!!! Of course CCP has to integrate the farming with ~~spacebook~~ EVE gate - otherwise your contacts will never know how good Cosmo Cows really are. And imagine if you find that little kawaii slaver on your fields one day... you could gift it to Riethe to make sure it's properly looked after
Mistah Ewedynao Gallente	Posted - 2010.03.27 19:26:00 - [56] Edited by: Mistah Ewedynao on 27/03/2010 19:30:38 Edited by: Mistah Ewedynao on 27/03/2010 19:26:39 Originally by: RAW23 "Old McCosmo had a farm, Ee - I - Ee - EVE-O." 100mil prize for the best completed adaptation of this classic nursery rhyme. "Old McCosmo had a farm, Ee - I - Ee - EVE-O. And on this farm he made some rigs, Ee - I - Ee - EVE-O. A rig rig here, A rig rig there, here a rig, there a rig, Everywhere a rig, rig. Old McCosmo had a farm, Ee - I - Ee - EVE-O." lol too old to remember anything else..
RAW23	Posted - 2010.03.27 20:12:00 - [57] Originally by: Mistah Ewedynao Edited by: Mistah Ewedynao on 27/03/2010 19:30:38 Edited by: Mistah Ewedynao on 27/03/2010 19:26:39 Originally by: RAW23 "Old McCosmo had a farm, Ee - I - Ee - EVE-O." 100mil prize for the best completed adaptation of this classic nursery rhyme. "Old McCosmo had a farm, Ee - I - Ee - EVE-O. And on this farm he made some rigs, Ee - I - Ee - EVE-O. A rig rig here, A rig rig there, here a rig, there a rig, Everywhere a rig, rig. Old McCosmo had a farm, Ee - I - Ee - EVE-O." lol too old to remember anything else.. Truly awful! Thematically incoherent and lacking in any redeeming qualities. None the less, the present leader .
ChrisIsherwood	Posted - 2010.03.27 23:23:00 - [58] Originally by: cosmoray I tell you what excites a major industrialist like me. The opportunity to go down on a planet and build a FARM!!! Making ships that fly in space can get boring. I want to grow livestock, and live in a wattle and daub hut like my ancestors did about 500 years ago. I better get the chicken feed skill book trained up. Even though everyone will know Cosmo Cows are very best Kobe. Since the main purpose of industry in EVE is to make stuff to self-destruct, I am quite worried about the mechanism for self-destructing farm products in general and livestock in particular. After self-destructing a herd of Cosmo Cows, my ship would need detailing much more than a new German paintjob on the Florida Turnpike. Then there is the PETA aspect: as you know, the worse job in Starfleet is the guy who has to clean the holodeck on Sunday morning. Clearly, the worse job in EVE will be the sheep on a Goon farm.
Rosenoern	Posted - 2010.03.28 00:20:00 - [59] Originally by: Iosue i wonder if minerals might be used in PI production to offset the recent oversupply currently flooding the market? If you read the descriptions of most of the minerals it will say that they are "unstable" under atmospheric presure and temperature. My guess is no...
Alice Celadon	Posted - 2010.03.28 01:11:00 - [60] Originally by: Rosenoern Originally by: Iosue i wonder if minerals might be used in PI production to offset the recent oversupply currently flooding the market? If you read the descriptions of most of the minerals it will say that they are "unstable" under atmospheric presure and temperature. My guess is no... Yeah, what are those PIs going to be made of? Hmm.
Mistah Ewedynao Gallente	Posted - 2010.03.28 18:06:00 - [61] Originally by: RAW23 100mil prize for the best completed adaptation of this classic nursery rhyme. Did I win? Seems like I am the only entrant? Anyway, if I do win, as poor as I am, please split the winnings between myself and that guy Priue Nvidess, who was quitting eve and payed everybody their money back and then some. Was much impressed by his honesty. Very refreshing in this game full of people who think thieves are cool and actually admire them.
Sq7	Posted - 2010.04.06 19:55:00 - [62] Not so much theory, but I really think they should make a jump clone governor a requirement. If they intend for it to have some kind of real benefit to the player then that would ensure that players will at least need to do some work at some stage to get into it (getting standing just like for high-sec anchoring). And it would automatically limit the number of planets you can govern by your infomorph psychology level. You can't just have something for nothing. And it has to be limited somehow since a lot of very little is still a lot. Also it would add a strategic element to PI since the planet base could act as a personal clone storage facility for you when you want to get around using JCs. Maybe even as a home base for your normal clone. Think of the interesting possibilities for WH space. In any case I believe they will start off with minimum impact on the game as they have stated. Meaning a poor effort to reward ratio.
RAW23	Posted - 2010.04.06 20:03:00 - [63] Originally by: Mistah Ewedynao Originally by: RAW23 100mil prize for the best completed adaptation of this classic nursery rhyme. Did I win? Seems like I am the only entrant? Anyway, if I do win, as poor as I am, please split the winnings between myself and that guy Priue Nvidess, who was quitting eve and payed everybody their money back and then some. Was much impressed by his honesty. Very refreshing in this game full of people who think thieves are cool and actually admire them. Sadly, you won. Was a bad competition tbh. On reflection, not really much of interest can be done with that song.
Dzil Caldari SafeHouse Investments of Tautology	Posted - 2010.04.06 20:11:00 - [64] Originally by: RAW23 Originally by: Mistah Ewedynao Originally by: RAW23 100mil prize for the best completed adaptation of this classic nursery rhyme. Did I win? Seems like I am the only entrant? Anyway, if I do win, as poor as I am, please split the winnings between myself and that guy Priue Nvidess, who was quitting eve and payed everybody their money back and then some. Was much impressed by his honesty. Very refreshing in this game full of people who think thieves are cool and actually admire them. Sadly, you won. Was a bad competition tbh. On reflection, not really much of interest can be done with that song. You could retroactively just give me 100m for the banker went down to Jita :P Much better source material from which to parody imo. Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m

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