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Ephemeron Retribution Corp. Initiative Associates	Posted - 2010.03.25 00:46:00 - [31] Quote: 1) Increase the Dramiel's price. Now we still have one clearly dominant frigate completely wrecking all diversity in an entire class of ships, but now it costs a bit more to lose (but you still have to pay for one if you don't want to suck and die). This statement is easily proved wrong. If you take sample data from several popular killboards, and analyze them for frigate class ships, you would undoubtedly find that Dramiel occupies a small fraction of total frigate population. And that's despite it being relatively cheap and clearly superior to other frigs. Let me know if anyone wishes to seriously dispute this fact. The very fact that Dramiel is significantly different from other frigates is prove of its value in promoting diversity in PvP. Please examine the definition of "diversity" in your favorite dictionary. While balance through "sameness" can be achieved, by making Dramiel just like several other frigates you are removing diversity from the game. If it flys like other frigate, costs like other frigate, and performs just like another frigate, how is it helping diversity? This fundamental concept seems to be really hard to grasp to some people, including CCP developers. The same line of arguments have been used before in the Nano Nerf debates. And the result was removal of elite speed tactics from game. Diversity of PvP was decreased, even tho greater balance was achieved. Bottom line is Dramiel is fun because it is different in a successful way. Don't make EVE less fun by balance thru sameness.
yourdoingitwrong	Posted - 2010.03.25 01:36:00 - [32] there will always ALWAYS be one ship that rises above the rest in its class and that ship will always be heavily used. In this case its the dramiel. It is also nearly the most expensive t1 frig available. -To the OP- Ya get nano nerfed ya get webs nerfed and then complain you cant kill a fast frig. Stop shooting yourself in the foot its your own fault. HTFU and deal
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2010.03.25 02:05:00 - [33] Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 25/03/2010 02:06:06 Originally by: Ephemeron If you take sample data from several popular killboards, and analyze them for frigate class ships, you would undoubtedly find that Dramiel occupies a small fraction of total frigate population. And that's despite it being relatively cheap and clearly superior to other frigs. Let me know if anyone wishes to seriously dispute this fact. Please read more carefully. I said "it reduces the entire frigate class to two categories: Dramiels, and those lesser ships that you only fly *when you don't have the skills/ISK to fly a Dramiel." See if you can figure out how this statement explains the killboard stats. Quote:* The very fact that Dramiel is significantly different from other frigates is prove of its value in promoting diversity in PvP. Please examine the definition of "diversity" in your favorite dictionary. The Dramiel isn't significantly different, it's significantly *better. Quote:* While balance through "sameness" can be achieved, by making Dramiel just like several other frigates you are removing diversity from the game. If it flys like other frigate, costs like other frigate, and performs just like another frigate, how is it helping diversity? Because what you and the other Dramiel abusers don't get is that all frigates aren't the same. Pre-Dramiel you had various choices, each with their own advantages and disadvantages. Do you fly the Taranis and go for maximum speed and dps? Do you fly the Ishkur and trade some speed for the versatility of drones and enough tank to survive a few hits? Do you fly the Jaguar and trade dps for an excellent balance between speed and tank and excel in the tackler role? Post-Dramiel-boost there is no question. If you have the skills and ISK, you fly a Dramiel, end of discussion. Quote: This fundamental concept seems to be really hard to grasp to some people, including CCP developers. The same line of arguments have been used before in the Nano Nerf debates. And the result was removal of elite speed tactics from game. Diversity of PvP was decreased, even tho greater balance was achieved. Wrong again. The nano nerf fixed three problems, none of them related to diversity: 1) Speed bonuses were not stacking nerfed like other bonuses. For example, you could fit three overdrives and then fit polycarbon rigs starting over at module #1 on the stacking penalty because, despite the fact that the end result was effectively another X% speed increase, reduced mass was somehow a "different" bonus. The end result was speed tankers could stack far more modules/implants/etc before hitting diminishing returns than any other setups. 2) Faction/officer/deadspace speed mods and snake implants broke the normal rule of diminishing returns with higher ISK investment. Investing tons of ISK into those modules gave a far higher percent increase in performance than any other type of faction/officer/deadspace modules, creating a situation where you could literally buy your way to invulnerability. 3) Getting massive damage reduction was just too much of a benefit when speed is already so valuable for other reasons (range control, GTFO ability, etc). It would be like if warp disruptors also gave you a 500% dps increase, it's just too much of a benefit from a single module. So there was a simple solution: nerf overall speed, but keep relative speeds the same (IOW, a Vagabond is still faster than an Eagle, and a nano-fit/snakes/etc Vagabond is faster than both). End result: speed is still just as valuable as it was before the nerf, but some people are just too stupid to understand why. And despite all the whiners at the time, nano setups are STILL effective, so I fail to see how any diversity was lost. -----------
Keflin Geard The Circle Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2010.03.25 02:08:00 - [34] Speed is always FOM. Think about why that is. Gimmie back my old Vagabond CCP.
yourdoingitwrong	Posted - 2010.03.25 02:27:00 - [35] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 25/03/2010 02:06:06 Please read more carefully. I said "it reduces the entire frigate class to two categories: Dramiels, and those lesser ships that you only fly *when you don't have the skills/ISK to fly a Dramiel." Simply not true maybe 10 percent of our frigs killed are dramiels or less.* See if you can figure out how this statement explains the killboard stats. The Dramiel isn't significantly different, it's significantly *better. There will always be a better frigate even if the dramiel gets nerfed. Something has to be best. Deal with it* Because what you and the other Dramiel abusers don't get is that all frigates aren't the same. Pre-Dramiel you had various choices, each with their own advantages and disadvantages. Do you fly the Taranis and go for maximum speed and dps? Do you fly the Ishkur and trade some speed for the versatility of drones and enough tank to survive a few hits? Do you fly the Jaguar and trade dps for an excellent balance between speed and tank and excel in the tackler role? Post-Dramiel-boost there is no question. If you have the skills and ISK, you fly a Dramiel, end of discussion. Killboards do not support this assumtion Quote: This fundamental concept seems to be really hard to grasp to some people, including CCP developers. The same line of arguments have been used before in the Nano Nerf debates. And the result was removal of elite speed tactics from game. Diversity of PvP was decreased, even tho greater balance was achieved. Wrong again. The nano nerf fixed three problems, none of them related to diversity: End result: speed is still just as valuable as it was before the nerf, but some people are just too stupid to understand why. wrong again speed was so severely nerfed that everyone now gets in giant blobs and solo pvp is dead. And despite all the whiners at the time, nano setups are STILL effective, so I fail to see how any diversity was lost. Already explained this the nano nerf killed solo pvp eliminating a form of pvp from the game which is why everyone forms node crashing blobs and attacks each other. Should be pretty obvious imo
Ephemeron Retribution Corp. Initiative Associates	Posted - 2010.03.25 02:29:00 - [36] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Please read more carefully. I said "it reduces the entire frigate class to two categories: Dramiels, and those lesser ships that you only fly *when you don't have the skills/ISK to fly a Dramiel." Your statement does not invalidate mine, you simply switch focus on another line of thought. You have a conditional definition of "lesser ships". The same conditional reasoning can be applied to any ship that is in any way different from another. The mega price of Dramiel is actually a very big condition that makes it inferior to most t2 ships. It's important to note that I suggest doubling the price of Dramiel to further emphasize its weakness. Lets have a 160 mil frigate. Even as it outperforms other frigates 1:1, we can measure balance by overall performance. Take ship kill/death ratio, put it in proportion with isk destroyed / isk lost ratio. Increase Dram price until it becomes less efficient isk wise. I dare say that with marginal price increase, you'd find that people flying Dramiels at a loss. Originally by:* Merin Ryskin Because what you and the other Dramiel abusers don't get is that all frigates aren't the same. Pre-Dramiel you had various choices, each with their own advantages and disadvantages. Do you fly the Taranis and go for maximum speed and dps? Do you fly the Ishkur and trade some speed for the versatility of drones and enough tank to survive a few hits? Do you fly the Jaguar and trade dps for an excellent balance between speed and tank and excel in the tackler role? Post-Dramiel-boost there is no question. If you have the skills and ISK, you fly a Dramiel, end of discussion. You use language that suggests you are emotionally compromised, which effects your ability to be rational and thus unfit to make important decisions regarding Dramiel balance. I'm sorry you feel that way. But I will remind you - plenty of people choose other ships over Dramiel, it is not as dominating as you led yourself to believe. The evidence is all around you, just fly around, check your overview, write down the results, and maybe some rationality will prevail.
Lucifer's Ghost Minmatar Native Freshfood	Posted - 2010.03.25 02:35:00 - [37] Originally by: Ephemeron maybe some rationality will prevail. In EVE? You are kidding right? -------------------------------------------------- Real Men Pod Tank
Ralnik Mutineers	Posted - 2010.03.25 02:42:00 - [38] Originally by: Merin Ryskin TL,DR: people are idiots. The Dramiel is not broken because it is impossible to kill, it is broken because it reduces the entire frigate class to two categories: Dramiels, and those lesser ships that you only fly when you don't have the skills/ISK to fly a Dramiel. Pre-Dramiel-boost, there was tons of diversity in the frigate class and many good choices. Post-boost, there is one clear winner and no diversity. It should be obvious why this is a bad thing. This pretty much.. It sucks to whine about a ship but really the Dramiels have killing having fun in T1 frigs. I barely bother to undock a Rifter anymore because I know it will just end up getting ganked by a Dramiel. The Worm on the other hand needs a bit of a speed buff. It screams frig that does damage at range but it's unGodly slow. ..... FactionWarfare.com New forum dedicated to all four FW factions.
yourdoingitwrong	Posted - 2010.03.25 02:53:00 - [39] Edited by: yourdoingitwrong on 25/03/2010 02:53:16 Originally by: Ralnik This pretty much.. It sucks to whine about a ship but really the Dramiels have killing having fun in T1 frigs. I barely bother to undock a Rifter anymore because I know it will just end up getting ganked by a Dramiel. The Worm on the other hand needs a bit of a speed buff. It screams frig that does damage at range but it's unGodly slow. And why shouldn't a 70M isk frig kill your 100k isk frig. ? Should my faction Nightmare also be evenly matched with a dominix? You people are freaking stoopid.
AdmiralJohn The Unknown Bar and Pub Elysium Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.25 02:56:00 - [40] Originally by: yourdoingitwrong And why shouldn't a 70M isk frig kill your 100k isk frig. ? Should my faction Nightmare also be evenly matched with a dominix? You people are freaking stoopid. This.
Amberlamps	Posted - 2010.03.25 03:10:00 - [41] Edited by: Amberlamps on 25/03/2010 03:11:18 I think there is a unique difference between the variety of T1/T2 ships and the Dramiel, they outclass all frigates and rarely struggle. The only other frigate I know that could stand a chance against the Dramiel is a daredevil. The Dram' pilots seem to follow a pretty standard fit, I've seen 2 commonly used fits, all of which revolve around its godlike speed. Like someone previously said, I don't even bother un-docking a rifter or other. Especially a Harpy or Hawk, why should an assault ship... T2, fail so hard against another frigate. The worm is a big issue in my eyes though, I would like to see the worm capable of doing something however it just seems have no received the lovin' the Dramiel. Someone said in one of the first few posts "learn how to fit your ships". You seem to be believing everyone should anticipate a dramiel appearing... yes the mystery aspect of what someone else might be flying if you dont have much intel is fun. However to have to completely refit so specifically purely to catch a FRIGATE which can solo cruisers and have been known to solo battleships as well is quite ridiculous. I just don't like how it seems to be the "solopwnboat" we always speak of. It deserves a light clubbing from the nerfbat. However If you refuse to nerf it, at least give GODDAMN MOTHER ****ING ROFLKETS A BOOST! As well as assault ships... because come on... they need that second bonus.
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2010.03.25 03:10:00 - [42] Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 25/03/2010 03:16:26 Originally by: yourdoingitwrong Simply not true maybe 10 percent of our frigs killed are dramiels or less. Why is reading so difficult? Dramiels are 10% of the frigates you kill because most people: 1) Can't afford a Dramiel at all. 2) Can't afford to fly a Dramiel in the role they are currently flying a frigate in (for example, fleet tackler that is likely to die). 3) Don't have the skills to fly a Dramiel well. Quote: There will always be a better frigate even if the dramiel gets nerfed. Something has to be best. Deal with it Is literacy not your strong point? I said *significantly* better. There is a huge difference between "well, I think the Dramiel is the best, but there are other good frigates" and "the Dramiel is so absurdly better than everything else that all other frigates are obsolete." Please try to pay attention. Quote: wrong again speed was so severely nerfed that everyone now gets in giant blobs and solo pvp is dead. Sorry, but you're an idiot. Not only is solo PvP still alive, but nano setups are still effective. I suppose in your delusional world nanocanes, nano Curses, Vagabonds, etc, all of those ships don't exist? Originally by: Ephemeron Your statement does not invalidate mine, you simply switch focus on another line of thought. You have a conditional definition of "lesser ships". The same conditional reasoning can be applied to any ship that is in any way different from another. The mega price of Dramiel is actually a very big condition that makes it inferior to most t2 ships. Oh FFS, why is this so complicated? Even if you feel that the Armageddon is better than the Dominix, the Armageddon does not make the Dominix obsolete. The Dominix still has its advantages, and there are still people who will disagree with you and prefer the Dominix. This is *diversity. The Dramiel is entirely different, since it is clearly better than all other frigates. There is no disagreement on this point, the only argument is whether the Dramiel is better by a large enough margin that it needs to be nerfed. This is NOT diversity, because there is a single option that is the clear "correct" choice. Quote:* It's important to note that I suggest doubling the price of Dramiel to further emphasize its weakness. Lets have a 160 mil frigate. Even as it outperforms other frigates 1:1, we can measure balance by overall performance. Take ship kill/death ratio, put it in proportion with isk destroyed / isk lost ratio. Increase Dram price until it becomes less efficient isk wise. I dare say that with marginal price increase, you'd find that people flying Dramiels at a loss. Repeat after me: UNBALANCED AT ANY PRICE. Having tons of ISK entitle you to overpowered ships is **ty game design, and precisely what CCP is trying to avoid with the steep diminishing returns on officer/faction/deadspace modules. Quote: You use language that suggests you are emotionally compromised, which effects your ability to be rational and thus unfit to make important decisions regarding Dramiel balance. And you use language that suggest you are a semi-literate moron who doesn't want his overpowered ship nerfed. Quote:** But I will remind you - plenty of people choose other ships over Dramiel, it is not as dominating as you led yourself to believe. The evidence is all around you, just fly around, check your overview, write down the results, and maybe some rationality will prevail. Yeah, there are a lot of people who recognize that the Dramiel is overpowered as hell but either can't afford to fly one, or don't have the skills for one. That doesn't make the ship balanaced. -----------
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2010.03.25 03:16:00 - [43] And can we please stop this **ing stupid argument about how "it's expensive, therefore it is ok for it to be overpowered". Economics 101: CCP does not set the price on faction frigates.** The Dramiel is not expensive because CCP deliberately designed it as an expensive but powerful ship, it is expensive because CCP accidentally made one of the equally-expensive (in theory) faction frigates massively overpowered, resulting in huge increases in demand. Econ 101, demand goes up, price goes up. Please get your cause and effect straight before you continue posting. -----------
Amberlamps	Posted - 2010.03.25 03:20:00 - [44] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Oh FFS, why is this so complicated? This is the internet isn't it? I refer you to this to help you understand. Image I however completely agree with your points. What frustrates me more is how someone believes driving the price up or for a matter of fact doubling the Dramiels "cost" will somehow help in a player driven market? Increasing the price of a ship that wreaks havoc and solopwns all frigates in site and then decides to come back for something bigger and continues does not result in a fair balance.
MrBinary Minmatar Binary Systems	Posted - 2010.03.25 03:20:00 - [45] Who got owned by a Dramiel and called the waaaaambulance? Yet another "nerf the Dramiel" thread...gotta be some sort of record by now. "[ 2004.05.20 20:11:42 ] Hodal Xibur > Die MrBinary"
Amberlamps	Posted - 2010.03.25 03:29:00 - [46] Originally by: MrBinary Who got owned by a Dramiel and called the waaaaambulance? Yet another "nerf the Dramiel" thread...gotta be some sort of record by now. Wow, such a constructive and vastly informative comment. Please enlighten us more with your fantastic contributions towards our discussion about balancing this frigate. Comment finished Yes/No? If yes end sarcasm Sarcasm unit deactivated.
King Rothgar Amarrian Retribution	Posted - 2010.03.25 04:16:00 - [47] Mmm, I'm now opposed to nerfing the dramiel. I decided to go out and buy one, man does it make my slicer look like a crap ass ship. My old slicer did 4km/s with 3 overdrives, the dramiel does 5.8km/s with just 2. Both have similar tanks and comparable dps. However that's without overloading, if I overload that mwd, suddenly my dramiel goes around 9km/s while my old slicer does a truly pathetic 5.5km/s. Yep, dramiels it is from now on. Sure my slicer has a better optimal but that huge speed advantage easily outweighs it. The fact that I can toss on an AB in addition to my mwd or some more EW (scrambler/web/ECM burst) is just some icing. Jesus, I could trimark this thing and it would still be faster than everything else in eve (save other dramiels). This is not overpowered at all. Seriously though, I did buy a dramiel. It's overpowered and really does make every other frigate I can fly look like garbage regardless of what I'm trying to do with it. Whether it be tackling bigger ships or ganking other frigate hulls, it's the king and not by a small margin. On an unrelated note: Solo pvp is alive and well. I had several solo kills last night. Thus far you shall read, but no further; for this is my sig.
Tyremis The Perfect Storm Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2010.03.25 04:34:00 - [48] some people are severely over stating their case here. Some people just cant handle the fact that some ships are better than others. It doesnt mean a good taranis pilot cant kill a dramiel. Happens all the time. My Vaga will lolpwn a deimos guarenteed and its not faction vs non faction its t2 against t2. There are far more broken ships in the game than the dramiel. You guys are just mad your not good enough to catch them/kill them. This was the same with the nano nerf just called for the nerf rather than finding creative ways of killing them when the tools are available. I mean its a t1 frig ffs train for it and use one yourself if you think its so OP. Nothings stopping you. This is thread is pathetic.
Shant City of Certitude Zinc Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.25 04:49:00 - [49] Well the btcng can stop here because it's going to get nurfed. Other ships have got the shaft for less (first comes to mind the nosdomi and also domis that had 20 Ogre II's hovering around them, oooo and the mwd raven combined with several series of torpedoes launched, yes the nanonerf, falcon) and they could be countered more easily than the Dramiel. CCP has done it before and trust me, this will be no exception. This is a textbook example of a ship that will get nerfed. That is all.

CCP Applebabe	Posted - 2010.03.25 05:13:00 - [50] Moved from EVE General Discussion. Applebabe Community Representative CCP Hf, EVE Online Contact us

Mistah Ewedynao Gallente	Posted - 2010.03.25 05:18:00 - [51] I have Snakes....I fly a Dramiel To the OP...I will BUY you a Dramiel...and kick your butt in an.....Ishkur. 20M AF If you lose you pay me back the cost of the Dramiel. If you win...you can keep it. alt post BTW, but I am serious. Bring it on. I grow tired of your endless drivel.
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.03.25 06:15:00 - [52] Originally by: yourdoingitwrong Already explained this the nano nerf killed solo pvp eliminating a form of pvp from the game which is why everyone forms node crashing blobs and attacks each other. Should be pretty obvious imo Accurate only for the pilots that were using one of the non-vagabond variants. For everyone else (>99+% player base) Quantum Rise expanded PvP both solo, gang and fleet tremendously. Not only did frigates, cruisers and even destroyers become viable choices but afterburners started being used as MWDs became a liability in some circumstances and battleships lost their iWin status against anything smaller thanks to the god-web. Nano is still alive and well but it now requires actual skill and sacrifices to pull off properly .. no more WoW-style farming PvP. @Merin: Give it up. What needs to be said has been said. You have about as much hope of convincing the FoTM-jockeys (script kiddies of Eve) of anything relating to balance as you have of convincing a rock not to sink in a lake.
Mistah Ewedynao Gallente	Posted - 2010.03.25 06:26:00 - [53] Originally by: Merin Ryskin The Dramiel is not expensive because CCP deliberately designed it as an expensive but powerful ship, it is expensive because CCP accidentally made one of the equally-expensive (in theory) faction frigates massively overpowered, resulting in huge increases in demand. Econ 101, demand goes up, price goes up. Please get your cause and effect straight before you continue posting. If it is so HOT....why is the Daredevil so much more Expensive? All CCP has to do is adjust the Dramiel BPC drop rate...make it REALLY hurt to lose one. BTW, learn to fly one...they rock.
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2010.03.25 06:44:00 - [54] Originally by: Tyremis My Vaga will lolpwn a deimos guarenteed and its not faction vs non faction its t2 against t2. There are far more broken ships in the game than the dramiel. You guys are just mad your not good enough to catch them/kill them. This was the same with the nano nerf just called for the nerf rather than finding creative ways of killing them when the tools are available. Oh FFS, why does nobody ever pay attention to what has already been said? I repeat: The problem is not that the Dramiel is impossible to beat, the problem is that the Dramiel is so much better than every other frigate that it removes all diversity from the frigate class. Quote: I mean its a t1 frig ffs train for it and use one yourself if you think its so OP. Nothings stopping you. This is thread is pathetic. Yes, let's all just fly Dramiels. Why don't we just have CCP delete every other frigate in the game instead of fixing the one overpowered ship? Originally by: Mistah Ewedynao If it is so HOT....why is the Daredevil so much more Expensive? Drop rates? I don't know. But this just proves my point: if the Dramiel's overpowered state is justified by its high price, then why is the Daredevil *more* expensive but much weaker? Quote: All CCP has to do is adjust the Dramiel BPC drop rate...make it REALLY hurt to lose one. Repeat after me: UNBALANCED AT ANY PRICE. There is a reason why faction/officer/deadspace modules have such severe diminishing returns. CCP has deliberately (and for good reason) made it so that you can not simply buy your way to victory. Making the Dramiel even more expensive to "justify" it being overpowered would not only be ****ing stupid, it would completely contradict this policy. -----------
El Mauru Amarr EVERYTHING IS TERRIBLE	Posted - 2010.03.25 07:00:00 - [55] Balancing by cost is just plain stupid for so many obvious reasons that it isn't even worth discussing anymore. For the sake of it: Balance usually requires a counterweight- and if the only counterweight is the cost to reach one side of the scale it is not "balance" but a "watermark". The dramiel is overpowered. Maybe not by quite as large a margin as people make it out to be, but it is. It dominates not only one specific frigate class, but pretty much all of them and does so at a degree that is almost hilarious. I know they are fun to fly- but name me one other frigate which could stand its ground against an experienced dramiel pilot. We aren't even at the peak of the good old vagabond-whine where one option was that you could at least scare it off- the dramiel will pretty much whipe the floor with any other ship of its hull-size if flown right and pretty much exclusively without even the notion of a challenge. Dog-fighting in interceptors/assault frigates and the tackling game is too integral a part of Eve combat to make it that obvious a choice for best frigate hull. That being said: Don't nerf it too much plx. It is a pretty sexy ship. Please re-size your signature to the maximum allowed file size of 24000 bytes. Zymurgist
Kipina	Posted - 2010.03.25 07:01:00 - [56] Dramiel has the tank and speed and the slots, so why not increase its sig radius? it would equalize the speed issue a bit, therefore its tank wouldnt last as long and it would start to worry dram pilots a bit more if someone is actually hitting you.
Sarah Norbulk Dawn of a new Empire The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.03.25 07:19:00 - [57] The Daredevil is quite effective at killing most interceptors, t1 frigates, some t1 cruisers, and Dramiels. A decent pilot with a Daredevil can kill a Dramiel quite easy as the EHP is slightly in favor of the Dramiel, but the DPS is in favor of the Daredevil by far. The biggest issue with the Daredevil vs Dramiel fight is that the Daredevil either has to get lucky to catch the Dramiel or the Dramiel has to want to fight. That being said, I do think that Dramiels are slightly stronger than the other frigates. I also think that a massive nerf would be overkill and something as simple as lowering the dronebay and bandwidth could bring it back in line. I would also like to say that even though it fits a MSE, without t2 resists the EHP is a decent amount short of an AF, although it is a decent amount more than an interceptor.
Mistah Ewedynao Gallente	Posted - 2010.03.25 07:23:00 - [58] cue WWII: Nerf the ME-262! It's uber! BTW, last time I looked this is a MULTI player game. Just like in WWII, swarms of "inferior" fighters killed the uber ships.
Vladimir Norkoff Income Redistribution Service	Posted - 2010.03.25 07:34:00 - [59] Merin is right. I hate propping up a self-important assclown, but he is right. Read what he's actually posting instead of just kneejerk reacting with "No! No! No! Don't take away my pwn-machine!". And as for the Worm. It needs some serious love. It's only advantage over the Ishkur is the ability to spew a pair of light missiles. And since they are unbonused and given it's terribad speed, that's not much of an advantage at all. Best suggestion so far is a drone damage bonus. Give it a base drone bay of 25-40m3 and then +5% drone dmg/lvl. Then it would be a slow-flying hard-hitting brick - like a cross btwn a Drake and Domi but in frigate size. Taxman IX: Risky Venture
Umega Republic Military School	Posted - 2010.03.25 08:01:00 - [60] Edited by: Umega on 25/03/2010 08:01:27 There needs to be a nerf alright.. a serious nerf.. Need to nerf how often a single person can create threads! masternerdguy.. I'm sure you've used google/yahoo/ask or some search engine before. Please quit pretending you don't know what a search function is. Get off the shortbus cause I'm sure they don't allow trolls on their.. them poor kids have enough problems to be dealing with a wannabe. PS.. nerf dram. A single frig that requires 2 T2/pirate/faction frigs to take down it down.. is a 'broken' ship in its class. Spare me the stories.. I've seen, read, experinced them enough. Focus on the main issue folks.. nerf masternerdguy privilages first! ---------------------------------------- -Treat the EVE Market like you're a pimp and it is your 'employee'.. freely fondle it as you wish and make it pay you for it-

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