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Aerilis Gallente Quantum Cats Syndicate	Posted - 2010.03.26 12:39:00 - [121] ITT: Dramiel pilots flame valid points on why the Dramiel is OP. Also internet tough guys thinking they're cool because they can say HTFU like all the cool kids do these days. ------------------------------ [WTS] Dominix Navy Issues - 500M
Sunset Rogue	Posted - 2010.03.26 12:46:00 - [122] I don't want the Dramiel to be overnerfed (like ccp are so fond of doing) but there is no question that it needs a serious toning down. I mean look at it Quote: Dramiel has: * The buffer tank of an AF. * More speed than interceptors. * More speed than many non-interceptor MWD frigates even when it only uses its AB. * The dps of an AF. * A drone bay larger than all but the Worm and Ishkur. * A 4th mid for dualprop fits. * Utility highslot. That's just absurd.
Andracin Minmatar Ever Flow Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.26 12:52:00 - [123] The thing I like the most about these "OMFG this ship is overpowered" posts is alot of idiots suddenly decided they have to get one of these shiny pwn all ships...and I can get lots of LOL kills when they have no idea what to do with it. Ive met maybe a dozen dram pilots that know what they are doing and about 5x that who dont have a cold clue in hell.
Seriously Bored Minmatar	Posted - 2010.03.26 12:53:00 - [124] Edited by: Seriously Bored on 26/03/2010 12:53:45 Originally by: Sunset Rogue * The dps of an AF. * A drone bay larger than all but the Worm and Ishkur. Let's fix these two at the same time. The rest will be fine.
Proxyyyy Caldari The Tuskers	Posted - 2010.03.26 13:00:00 - [125] Originally by: Ephemeron The biggest enemy of balance is exaggerated reasoning, that often leads to over-nerf I have seen it happen again and again in EVE. This talk of "I-win button", "invulnerability", "impossible to kill", "the ONLY ship/module worth using" - they are just the last stages of people reinforcing each others misguided opinions to point of frenzy The stupidity wins by numbers. But then, why bother fighting for what right? if the lynch mob demands a body, maybe the sheriff should just give it to them, after all the people pay his salary. This is very true^ I have seen it to many times. Its never ending. Once one thing is "Quote Fixed" something that wasnt broken before takes its place. Its something you mostly tend to see in todays capital markets (euphoria). Discourse often takes a life of its own and is exaggerated to the point of "general belief" , "Common knowlegde" that become that way by pilots who know so much about ships they dont fly. When you look at actual changes made by ccp to pvp. The biggest was done to scorch and the nano nerf. The changes themselves were small but its impact large. What changed wasnt the ships or the weapon systems to a large extent, but was a natural improving and changing of "Common Fits". The way players fit there ships have been invovling quicker than the "changes", done by ccp. You can see this when it comes to blasters. The new way of thinking about engagements in a game where pilots quickly group into large numbers is now directed towards range, speed and then damage. In the past not to long ago when blasters was king of pvp still (like a year ago). The focus was in your face damage! Projectiles was still out preforming blasters but on the forums it was broken! Blasters was considered and argued to be better even though things that minmatar are able to do now they could do before. The general thinking of the time was blasters could out damage another weapon system (Projectiles) that required you to travel into range and in those ranges blasters superior damage was king. This is still the case. Only the new way of fitting the cane and maybe even the rupture has realy changed. Every other fit or tactics used by other minmatar ships are still the same. Tracking Enhancers spawned the nano cane and even increased the range of battle ships like the maelstrom to almost shadow the range of the abaddon. (Mind you the nano harbinger and hurricane was around before the changes to TE btw). So what has changed? The = is nothing! The way pilots fit there ships was already changing and the focus ever shifting to the new way of seening pvp. The perception in the forums that i try to avoid. What i call forum "Hype" the constent bu11sh!t by those who want pvp on easy mode. "Perception" Is what changes faster than any changes made by ccp. That is why long ago i started concentrating on optimizing of the fits themselves rather than cry to ccp to nerf or boost things so its easy to fit and fly.
Proxyyyy Caldari The Tuskers	Posted - 2010.03.26 13:11:00 - [126] The worm is not broken, just figure out a way to fit and fly it properly. How you make judgments of what is good or broken is often comparative, and if thats the case then many ships are broken (if its not hte best in class). If all the worm is suppose to be is a faction frigate that tanks, then its the best at it! Many pilots fly around in ships with large tanks and love it = /
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2010.03.26 13:19:00 - [127] The Worm is broken.
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.03.26 13:45:00 - [128] Originally by: Proxyyyy The worm is not broken, just figure out a way to fit and fly it properly. How you make judgments of what is good or broken is often comparative, and if thats the case then many ships are broken (if its not hte best in class). If all the worm is suppose to be is a faction frigate that tanks, then its the best at it! Many pilots fly around in ships with large tanks and love it = / It can certainly field an impressive tank, but is that one fit/ability really enough to justify it taking up a pirate frigate slot? If so then we might as well remove slots/fittings and increase attributes so that the "fit" is built-in It is rammed so deep into its pigeon hole that you can barely make it out. With a proper drone bonus and perhaps a fitting tweak to avoid insane scenarios, it gains far more options when it comes to fittings (even if the kiting lol-drones! fit will be the most used). It is not broken per se, but could really do with a make-over/tweak .. same with the Suxcubus.
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2010.03.27 03:16:00 - [129] Edited by: Omara Otawan on 27/03/2010 03:20:03 Having finally bought one myself (a Dramiel) and given it a try, I cant say I'm too impressed. Sure its a good ship, as you'd expect, but its nowhere near people make it out to be on the forums. Some clarifications if you havent tried it yourself yet: - tank is not that great as people claim, while it is strong on exp/kin, against a competent rifter / punisher pilot you'll find it folds pretty fast. properly fit AFs always will have a better tank, and I can get my claw to tank almost as well for that matter. - dual-prop fit doesnt equal disengaging all the time, and it doesnt work at all once you are fighting 2 frigates (like 3mill rifters), it depends on the fitting of the other guy if it works or not - drones are actually a weakness imo, again a competent rifter pilot deals with those in a matter of seconds, and then a huge chunk of your dps is gone - there is no way you are winning against a properly flown thrasher. you might escape though, but you arent gonna win. Now, what I really liked about the dual-prop fitting, it actually isnt an instant death sentence tackling a cruiser or above that is web/scram fitted, so it makes for an excellent heavy tackler. Anyway, once you know about the weaknesses and how to beat its primary trick, its not that scary anymore but more of an annoyance like everything that can choose its fights (which if we are honest, pretty much every frigate, interceptor and AF can). As far as balancing goes, I'd like to see price adjustments for t2 frigates, like a 25% drop in production costs for AFs and interceptors (these are too expensive anyway).
Proxyyyy Caldari The Tuskers	Posted - 2010.03.27 06:44:00 - [130] Pretty much what was said above is some-what correct. the tank is overrated (well atleast the shield extender it self) ,its real tank lies in its speed and range mostly. The dps is not overated and mirrors the damage of the wolf. Once you are able to catch it and hold it, most of the best af's can take it out! The coecer with gats or lights can force it off grid every time. The thrasher can indeed **** it if it gets caught! The claw can last awhile against the drameil and do alot of damage but will die to it sooner or later ,but ive forced 2 drams off in my claw. The drameil is kool and is no doubt very strong. But over powered? Naw its just right for the price and the preformance you get. Im fine with it where it is and also the daredevil which i think has alot of damage. As far as the other faction ships are concerned, they have there place. Also whats wrong with the succubus?
Ancy Denaries	Posted - 2010.03.27 07:41:00 - [131] Originally by: Proxyyyy Also whats wrong with the succubus? Take a week and fly one. It lacks the punch to fit into the "gank" mentality of the Sanshas, it lacks the speed to catch anything, it lacks the agility to keep up with anything and it lacks the range to hit anything it can't catch. Fixing either of these would help a lot. ---- The Demigodess with a Conscience - An EVE IC Blog Originally by: CCP Dropbear rofl edit: ah crap, dev account. Oh well, official rofl at you sir.
praznimrak Gallente Level Up	Posted - 2010.03.27 08:25:00 - [132] Hi all,short story in here... Did scan down dramiel and manticor doing FW mision,and decidid to warp in in piligrim to cose some pain.Once in mision,stuff did look wierd and i didnt feel that im in right ship to do anything.My question was:how do i hurt a ship that gose 6.3K/s tanking all mision spawn whithout scratch and what can i do to kill SB moving fast and nailing down mision objectivs.Well i decidid at least to kick out sb from mision,and try to cacth him once he reinters.So i declocak and lock sb down ,deployd dronse and hes out of mision.And than it hapends....dram did point me. So i send my warriors t2 on him and im skilled pilot of dronse ships whith nice skills,and lets say that dronse did look sily chaising down that dram,and for my surprise he was dealing me nice dmg whith his dronse and his GUNS orbiting me on 18Km distance.It was slow pain but costant.After i killed his dronse i coud not get rid of his point,so i mowed more into npc group hoping hes gona bump onto somthing or that maybe npcis will help a bit.But there was no problem for him,perma mwd and still hiting me,so afetr while i did observe him i did realize he neads to drop spead to 4K/s to actualy hit me,but still wtf that was too much. So i did wait once more that he drop spead a bit and deploy dronse,and for my surprise i did take all his shield down,but he was fast inuff in incrising his spead and leaving my dronse behing,still keeping me pointid.After like 20 min of reciving constant dmg from dram and chasisng out manticore from mission i strat to conside is there any ship in my hangar full of toys that i could bring to kill that dram,cose a recon ship was usless. And i did realize that no inty,destroyer,cruiser or biger could do a thing,and if i actuali had something dram will probably just bail out do to his spead superioriti. Point of all this is that frigat whit dronse bay,insain spead,great fall off,awsom dps,and buffer tank just erase all other frigate hull form game making tham usles. Sory for my bad english i will never improve. Praz.
Lilith Velkor Minmatar Final Agony B A N E	Posted - 2010.03.27 08:32:00 - [133] Originally by: praznimrak Hi all,short story in here... So after his drones were dead, you did for some reason not decide to put your tracking disruptor on him and reduce his dps to nothing? Sounds weird, but then again you did for some reason decide to not pop your ecm drones and just warp out. Oh wait, you didnt have these things? Well, you came unprepared then.
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.03.27 08:40:00 - [134] Edited by: Hirana Yoshida on 27/03/2010 08:41:42 Originally by: Omara Otawan Having finally bought one myself (a Dramiel) and given it a try, I cant say I'm too impressed. Sure its a good ship, as you'd expect, but its nowhere near people make it out to be on the forums. Did you lose it? If so how many fights did you engage in, against what targets and how many were "draws" (ie. evading)? - Rifter/Punisher/Slicer will die long before Dramiel is even in danger so you must have been doing it wrong - Even without drones you still have more speed/agility, more tank, equal damage to a Rifter so shouldn't be a problem. By the time he is done with the drones you have him in deep hull. - Trashers die anything with experience in dealing with them. Been doing it in FW using Crucifiers, Punishers, Slicers, Inquisitors since day one .. only a threat when more than one. - Dual-prop is awesome. Any ship with slots to spare benefit from it in most scenarios (try a dual-prop Sacrilege .. a lot more effective than one might think). And just what is the "primary trick"? If you are referring to the drones then how about the AF size capacitor, tank and damage? The interceptor speed+, lock range and lock speed? The ridiculously easy fittings? The price compared to Daredevils? Buy it and use bog standard T2 fittings, it will still be better than everything out there. Pimpage just adds a screw-up buffer, same as the nano-ships of old. Originally by: Ancy Denaries Fixing either of these would help a lot. Bang on. It missed the pirate buff train entirely and is suffering from blisters trying to catch up to it
praznimrak Gallente Level Up	Posted - 2010.03.27 11:24:00 - [135] Originally by: Lilith Velkor Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 27/03/2010 08:50:59 Originally by: praznimrak Hi all,short story in here... So after his drones were dead, you did for some reason not decide to put your tracking disruptor on him and reduce his dps to nothing? Sounds weird, but then again you did for some reason decide to not pop your ecm drones and just warp out. Oh wait, you didnt have these things? Well, you came unprepared then. Its not invulnerable btw. Coud be but the point is that i nead to escape from a frig in my recon and thats is not comon situcaion.I woud not discuse much my recon fit,cose it did serve me well.Point was that dram is bit out of line ship and it looks like me that only other ship to engage this guy was dram too,but than again he coud easly desingage and leave....
Ancy Denaries	Posted - 2010.03.27 13:10:00 - [136] I feel your pain mate. I couldn't do jack against the Dram, and when the Curse showed up, I knew it was all over. ---- The Demigodess with a Conscience - An EVE IC Blog Originally by: CCP Dropbear rofl edit: ah crap, dev account. Oh well, official rofl at you sir.
Vladimir Norkoff Income Redistribution Service	Posted - 2010.03.27 19:06:00 - [137] Originally by: Lilith Velkor Its not invulnerable btw. Why is it that whenever somebody says drams are not op and start waving a killmail, it's always with a cruiser+ doing the killing? Doesn't anybody have solo frig kills vs a dram? Or should we use that as the new balance? "You cannot kill anything without a ship of a larger class or massive blobbage." That would make for alot of fun.... EvE is supposed to be a game of paper, rocks, scissors. Unfortunately for frigs, the Dram is the paper, the rock, and the scissors all at once. Taxman IX: Risky Venture
Ephemeron Retribution Corp. Initiative Associates	Posted - 2010.03.27 20:41:00 - [138] Edited by: Ephemeron on 27/03/2010 20:41:33 Originally by: Vladimir Norkoff Originally by: Lilith Velkor Its not invulnerable btw. Why is it that whenever somebody says drams are not op and start waving a killmail, it's always with a cruiser+ doing the killing? Doesn't anybody have solo frig kills vs a dram? Or should we use that as the new balance? "You cannot kill anything without a ship of a larger class or massive blobbage." That would make for alot of fun.... EvE is supposed to be a game of paper, rocks, scissors. Unfortunately for frigs, the Dram is the paper, the rock, and the scissors all at once. Why do the less gifted amongst us keep ignoring the economics part of EVE? you know, the cost of things, it's a pretty big part of this game That killmail shows that 15~ mil worth of 2 ships have defeated 80 mil ship. As far as economic PvP goes, they achieved significant victory. I'm sure 15 mil worth of rifters could also take down that 80 mil Dram. Unless you play on test server where losses don't matter, you have no right to compare ship power without taking its true cost into account. Dram is indeed powerful, but instead of nerfing its performance, just nerf it's cost by additional 70 mil.
Stuart Price Caldari The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2010.03.27 20:51:00 - [139] Originally by: Ephemeron Why do the less gifted amongst us keep ignoring the economics part of EVE? you know, the cost of things, it's a pretty big part of this game...instead of nerfing its performance, just nerf it's cost by additional 70 mil. Because: 1. Cost != performance 2. How are CCP going to raise the price by 70mil? Are they posting ALL the Dram contracts themselves now? Oh hang on no, the players are, according to supply and demand. You know, the free market economy? Economics? If it's cheap it's because more people are farming them to sell, driving supply up and lowering the overall price. Would you also accept paying 140mil for a Succubus or a Worm? Why not? Is it because they aren't as good? So how do you balance according to something that is neither relevant to comparative performance (certainly against other ships of its class) nor under your control? Also, yeah, you could buy a lot of Rifters for the cost of a Dramiel. Could you also buy the pilots to fly those Rifters? If not, you're stuck flying them one by one. Reckon you could kill a Dramiel on one of those occassions? Putting the 'irate' into 'Pirate'
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2010.03.27 20:57:00 - [140] Originally by: Ephemeron Dram is indeed powerful, but instead of nerfing its performance, just nerf it's cost by additional 70 mil. Stop trolling, you're not this ******ed. Ships need to be balanced within a class, and ISK plays no part in balance.
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2010.03.27 21:29:00 - [141] Edited by: Omara Otawan on 27/03/2010 21:32:04 Originally by: Stuart Price Also, yeah, you could buy a lot of Rifters for the cost of a Dramiel. Could you also buy the pilots to fly those Rifters? If not, you're stuck flying them one by one. Reckon you could kill a Dramiel on one of those occassions? If you are really thinking a rifter should have a chance 1v1 you are delusional. Eve is not a duelling game, so balancing around 1v1 situations is hilariously stupid. You can kill it in an AF solo, or another pirate frig. You can 'blob' it with a buddy in 2 rifters. That will have to suffice I'm afraid.
Stuart Price Caldari The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2010.03.27 22:13:00 - [142] Originally by: Omara Otawan Edited by: Omara Otawan on 27/03/2010 21:38:47 Originally by: Stuart Price Also, yeah, you could buy a lot of Rifters for the cost of a Dramiel. Could you also buy the pilots to fly those Rifters? If not, you're stuck flying them one by one. Reckon you could kill a Dramiel on one of those occassions? If you are really thinking a rifter should have a chance 1v1 you are delusional. Eve is not a duelling game, so balancing around 1v1 situations is hilariously stupid. Look at how balanced claw vs any other combat inty is for example. Nerf claw? You can kill it in an AF solo, or another pirate frig. You can 'blob' it with a buddy in 2 rifters. That will have to suffice I'm afraid. Clearly missed the sarcasm. Also, Claw IS pretty balanced against 'sader and 'ranis and no, an AF won't kill a competent Dramiel pilot. Putting the 'irate' into 'Pirate'
masternerdguy Gallente Caldari Naval Reserve	Posted - 2010.03.27 22:13:00 - [143] Originally by: Omara Otawan Edited by: Omara Otawan on 27/03/2010 21:38:47 Originally by: Stuart Price Also, yeah, you could buy a lot of Rifters for the cost of a Dramiel. Could you also buy the pilots to fly those Rifters? If not, you're stuck flying them one by one. Reckon you could kill a Dramiel on one of those occassions? If you are really thinking a rifter should have a chance 1v1 you are delusional. Eve is not a duelling game, so balancing around 1v1 situations is hilariously stupid. Look at how balanced claw vs any other combat inty is for example. Nerf claw? You can kill it in an AF solo, or another pirate frig. You can 'blob' it with a buddy in 2 rifters. That will have to suffice I'm afraid. the issue is that even 4 intys can be beaten by a dramiel, I can find that KM somewhere where an inty killed all 4 of our intys and got out with half armor. It's faster than an inty, more dps, etc. AND RAISING PRICE WONT DO ANYTHING
Ephemeron Retribution Corp. Initiative Associates	Posted - 2010.03.27 22:18:00 - [144] Ok, if you keep insisting that money in EVE doesn't matter, how to you justify the existence of faction ships and faction modules? All Navy batteships have more hp and extra slot, they are pretty much better than their non-navy counterparts in every way. They violate game balance! What about officer cap rechargers, officer PDS, officer guns/launchers, officer shield boosters and armor reps? they are so overpowered compared to t2 counterparts it's impossible not to notice. Why do silly people insist on using t2 armor reps in PvP if the factions ones are clearly so much better in every way? why doesn't every shield tanker fit Estamel's Invulnerability field that gives 50% resists to all when it's so much better than T2 invulnerability that gives only 30%? How can you pretend to be outraged over Dramiel's power if you are blind to gross imbalance of all other faction modules and ships? EVE if not counter strike in space, it does not follow the logic of RTS game balance. EVE has economics, and until you get that thru your thick skulls, you will always get it wrong.
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2010.03.27 22:28:00 - [145] Edited by: Omara Otawan on 27/03/2010 22:28:39 Originally by: masternerdguy the issue is that even 4 intys can be beaten by a dramiel, I can find that KM somewhere where an inty killed all 4 of our intys and got out with half armor. Bolded the important part. Your inty pilots are complete tools, and the guy that killed them was probably half competent. So we established that idiots get beaten by smart people. Also, your freudian slip (inty for dramiel) is very interesting, I suppose you realize many people have pulled off a 4v1 in regular combat inties and came out on top?
Ephemeron Retribution Corp. Initiative Associates	Posted - 2010.03.27 22:28:00 - [146] Originally by: masternerdguy the issue is that even 4 intys can be beaten by a dramiel, I can find that KM somewhere where an inty killed all 4 of our intys and got out with half armor. It's faster than an inty, more dps, etc. AND RAISING PRICE WONT DO ANYTHING Sounds like a case of 4 noobs vs a pro. If they weren't fitted to handle a Dram they shouldn't have engaged, and even a Dram can't tackle another inty if that inty chooses to run. I also seen killmail where a rifter kills a Raven, does it mean all rifters are overpowered?
Aerilis Gallente Quantum Cats Syndicate	Posted - 2010.03.27 22:42:00 - [147] Originally by: Ephemeron Ok, if you keep insisting that money in EVE doesn't matter, how to you justify the existence of faction ships and faction modules? All Navy batteships have more hp and extra slot, they are pretty much better than their non-navy counterparts in every way. They violate game balance! What about officer cap rechargers, officer PDS, officer guns/launchers, officer shield boosters and armor reps? they are so overpowered compared to t2 counterparts it's impossible not to notice. Why do silly people insist on using t2 armor reps in PvP if the factions ones are clearly so much better in every way? why doesn't every shield tanker fit Estamel's Invulnerability field that gives 50% resists to all when it's so much better than T2 invulnerability that gives only 30%? How can you pretend to be outraged over Dramiel's power if you are blind to gross imbalance of all other faction modules and ships? EVE if not counter strike in space, it does not follow the logic of RTS game balance. EVE has economics, and until you get that thru your thick skulls, you will always get it wrong. Pull your head out of your ass. You can blow billions on a faction/officer whatever battleship, and it'll still be taken down by 2 similar plain vanilla T2 fit battleships. Or you can get a Dramiel and kite every ship in the game. ------------------------------ [WTS] Dominix Navy Issues - 500M
Stuart Price Caldari The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2010.03.27 23:29:00 - [148] Originally by: Ephemeron Ok, if you keep insisting that money in EVE doesn't matter, how to you justify the existence of faction ships and faction modules? All Navy batteships have more hp and extra slot, they are pretty much better than their non-navy counterparts in every way. They violate game balance! What about officer cap rechargers, officer PDS, officer guns/launchers, officer shield boosters and armor reps? they are so overpowered compared to t2 counterparts it's impossible not to notice. Why do silly people insist on using t2 armor reps in PvP if the factions ones are clearly so much better in every way? why doesn't every shield tanker fit Estamel's Invulnerability field that gives 50% resists to all when it's so much better than T2 invulnerability that gives only 30%? How can you pretend to be outraged over Dramiel's power if you are blind to gross imbalance of all other faction modules and ships? EVE if not counter strike in space, it does not follow the logic of RTS game balance. EVE has economics, and until you get that thru your thick skulls, you will always get it wrong. SUPPLY AND DEMAND. Are you being deliberately thick or are you actually ******ed? Putting the 'irate' into 'Pirate'
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2010.03.28 01:03:00 - [149] Originally by: Aerilis Pull your head out of your ass. You can blow billions on a faction/officer whatever battleship, and it'll still be taken down by 2 similar plain vanilla T2 fit battleships. You can blow billions on a faction/officer whatever dramiel, and it'll still be taken down by 2 similar plain vanilla t2 fit rifters. See what I did there?
Ephemeron Retribution Corp. Initiative Associates	Posted - 2010.03.28 02:47:00 - [150] Originally by: Stuart Price SUPPLY AND DEMAND. Are you being deliberately thick or are you actually ******ed? You are the one ignoring this simple concept, why don't you teach it to the rest of this ignorant crowd if you are so smart. Explain to them how much Dramiel costs. And explain how it could be balanced more by increasing the costs.

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