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masternerdguy Gallente Caldari Naval Reserve	Posted - 2010.03.24 19:42:00 - [1] The dramiel and worm are the two most broken things in eve. The dramiel is the frig to end all frigs, sporting enough speed and dps to take down a battlecruiser. On the other hand, the worm is the frig that all frigs dont want to be, sporting less dps than an iskur which does the same job for less. So, I propose the following: Dramiel 1. Nerf velocity 15% 2. Change PG so it cant duel-prop 3. Get rid of its drone bay. It can keep its unique small autocannon range and all that good stuff. Worm Able to store 5 light drones right off the bat. It needs a 10% bonus to drone dmg per level of caldari frig It also needs a 5% bonus to shield resistance and shield capacity per caldari frig. TY
Kuar Z'thain Fraser's Finest	Posted - 2010.03.24 19:56:00 - [2] tl;dr: Dear CCP, Please nerf those silly ships I don't fly and boost the ones I do. Thank You.
Obsidian Hawk RONA Legion	Posted - 2010.03.24 20:00:00 - [3] tl;dr Dear CCP I don't know how to fit the following on my ships. Web Neut webber drones neut drones smart bombs. Please nerf the faction frigates so I dont have to think when i fit my ships. ty masternerdguy
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2010.03.24 20:18:00 - [4] TL,DR: people are idiots. The Dramiel is not broken because it is impossible to kill, it is broken because it reduces the entire frigate class to two categories: Dramiels, and those lesser ships that you only fly when you don't have the skills/ISK to fly a Dramiel. Pre-Dramiel-boost, there was tons of diversity in the frigate class and many good choices. Post-boost, there is one clear winner and no diversity. It should be obvious why this is a bad thing. -----------
Blane Xero Amarr The Firestorm Cartel	Posted - 2010.03.24 20:19:00 - [5] tl;dr Bawwww TY. _____________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008 Originally by: CCP Fallout :facepalm:
McRoll Minmatar Heatseekers	Posted - 2010.03.24 20:34:00 - [6] Originally by: Merin Ryskin The Dramiel is not broken because it is impossible to kill, it is broken because it reduces the entire frigate class to two categories: Dramiels, and those lesser ships that you only fly when you don't have the skills/ISK to fly a Dramiel. Pre-Dramiel-boost, there was tons of diversity in the frigate class and many good choices. Post-boost, there is one clear winner and no diversity. In the battleship class, the Apoc, Armageddon and Abaddon reduce the entire battleship class to two categories: Amarr battleships and those lesser battleships that you only fly when you don't have the skills to fly Amarr BS. There would be tons of diversity if Amarr lasers were nerfed. If you want to change something, do it consequently. Every race has their ships and fields where they excel. Amarr has the best battleships, Caldari the best Ewar and probably best PvE runners, Gallente the best point-blank damage and some unique drone capabilities. Minmatar has the best small ships (I count Dramiel as Minmatar ship) because speed and versatility pay of the better, the smaller the ship class is. So the Dramiel is the best frig as it should be, given Minmatar strengths. If you want to nerf the Dramiel, consider nerfing/changing everything mentioned above. This is what is unique about Eve, ships are not necessarily balanced by stats but also by price and demand and by racial strenghts and flavour.
Rocktown	Posted - 2010.03.24 20:36:00 - [7] Edited by: Rocktown on 24/03/2010 20:36:36 with a dramiel you get what you pay for everything is fine. -edit-\/ if you are losing your battlecruisers to a dramiel....... you are really really really doing it wrong
Tob'ias Sjodin Organized Crime Black Hand.	Posted - 2010.03.24 20:38:00 - [8] Easy solution: Get off your lazy butt and make some ISK and buy a Dramiel,
masternerdguy Gallente Caldari Naval Reserve	Posted - 2010.03.24 20:39:00 - [9] Originally by: Rocktown Edited by: Rocktown on 24/03/2010 20:36:36 with a dramiel you get what you pay for everything is fine. -edit-\/ if you are losing your battlecruisers to a dramiel....... you are really really really doing it wrong i lost my hurricane cuz he was out of web, neut, and scram range and didnt track him and he poped my drones http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbcctWbC8Q0 << dramiel pilots who are scared about losing their Battlecruiser with a frig hull
Shadowy Assistant	Posted - 2010.03.24 20:42:00 - [10] Originally by: masternerdguy i lost my hurricane cuz he was out of web, neut, and scram range and didnt track him and he poped my drones You would have lost your cane to any LR frigate in that case, not just the Dramiel.

masternerdguy Gallente Caldari Naval Reserve	Posted - 2010.03.24 20:51:00 - [11] Originally by: Shadowy Assistant Originally by: masternerdguy i lost my hurricane cuz he was out of web, neut, and scram range and didnt track him and he poped my drones You would have lost your cane to any LR frigate in that case, not just the Dramiel. your dumb.... he burned out at like 6km/s (he warped to me at 0) and i couldnt lock him down like I could with any other frig.
Grunanca Final Agony B A N E	Posted - 2010.03.24 21:02:00 - [12] Originally by: masternerdguy Originally by: Shadowy Assistant Originally by: masternerdguy i lost my hurricane cuz he was out of web, neut, and scram range and didnt track him and he poped my drones You would have lost your cane to any LR frigate in that case, not just the Dramiel. your dumb.... he burned out at like 6km/s (he warped to me at 0) and i couldnt lock him down like I could with any other frig. Your dumb what? You need to put in another word to actually make a sentence out of it...
Baillif Red Mist Inc.	Posted - 2010.03.24 21:14:00 - [13] Boost rockets so that the Dramiel is even more fun
Toramt	Posted - 2010.03.24 21:15:00 - [14] Originally by: Obsidian Hawk webber drones My understanding is that SW drones aren't fast enough to web anything worthwhile.
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2010.03.24 21:29:00 - [15] Originally by: McRoll In the battleship class, the Apoc, Armageddon and Abaddon reduce the entire battleship class to two categories: Amarr battleships and those lesser battleships that you only fly when you don't have the skills to fly Amarr BS. There would be tons of diversity if Amarr lasers were nerfed. This is just stupid for two reasons: 1) Amarr battleships are not the only battleships worth flying. Ever hear of the Raven, Scorpion, Dominix, Tempest, Typhoon or Maelstrom? All of them are good ships and out-perform the Amarr battleships in the appropriate role. 2) Even if you assume that Amarr ships are the best, the difference in performance between Amarr battleships and other battleships is nowhere near as much as the difference in performance between the Dramiel and all of the other frigates. Quote: Caldari the best Ewar and probably best PvE runners, Rapier and Curse, ever hear of them? Quote: Minmatar has the best small ships (I count Dramiel as Minmatar ship) because speed and versatility pay of the better, the smaller the ship class is. So the Dramiel is the best frig as it should be, given Minmatar strengths. Minmatar do not have the best small ships. Good ones, yes, but not the only ones that are worth flying. Quote: If you want to nerf the Dramiel, consider nerfing/changing everything mentioned above. This is what is unique about Eve, ships are not necessarily balanced by stats but also by price and demand and by racial strenghts and flavour. Congratulations on missing the point. The problem is not that the Dramiel does something better than another ship, it's that the Dramiel does *everything* better than every other frigate. There's literally no reason to fly another frigate if you can fly a Dramiel. -----------
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.24 21:36:00 - [16] Edited by: baltec1 on 24/03/2010 21:36:38 Originally by: Baillif Boost rockets so that the Dramiel is even more fun Boost rockets so its worthwhile putting them on my vengence Also Iteron V ==> Dramiel.
AdmiralJohn The Unknown Bar and Pub Elysium Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.24 22:22:00 - [17] Hi. I have invested millions into selling Dramiels. Please boost them so my stock is even more valuable. Thanks.
McRoll Minmatar Heatseekers	Posted - 2010.03.24 22:23:00 - [18] @ Ryskin I wont bother quoting every sentence. I just wanna tell you that my opinion is based on overall performance of the ships. Amarr BS is considered overall "the best" because their battleships excel in 2 primary roles for battleships which is dealing and taking damage. They also have a ship for every situation, Geddon for RR, Apoc for sniping and Baddon for soaking up huge amounts of damage and dealing the same. Sure, there are other ships that might be better for some particular situations but overall Amarr BS are the best. Look at the dominant ships in fleet battles and the increased numbers of people training Amarr. No point discussing this further. And no, the Dramiel isn't better in everything than other frigates. It has neither the best damage output nor the best tank, nor the most drones. What it does have is versatility and combination of dual propulsion with tank (med shield extender). So you can say that it's overall the best frigate but it doesnt excel in a particular field. Just like Amarr in their BS class, but in other way.
Ephemeron Retribution Corp. Initiative Associates	Posted - 2010.03.24 22:26:00 - [19] Dramiel is definitely very powerful for a frigate. But instead of nerfing its stats.. why not simply increase the cost? Double the cost of building Dramiels. If you make it just like the other faction frigs - what's the point of having it in the first place? EVE needs variety.
Steve Celeste Caldari Inglorious-Basterds	Posted - 2010.03.24 23:01:00 - [20] Originally by: Ephemeron Dramiel is definitely very powerful for a frigate. But instead of nerfing its stats.. why not simply increase the cost? Double the cost of building Dramiels. O **** man brilliant! That will make it..... ONE MILLION isk more expensive.

Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2010.03.24 23:05:00 - [21] Originally by: McRoll Sure, there are other ships that might be better for some particular situations but overall Amarr BS are the best. Look at the dominant ships in fleet battles and the increased numbers of people training Amarr. No point discussing this further. And again, you miss the point. Amarr battleships are good, and there is a strong argument for picking them if you are limited to one race of battleships. Amarr battleships are NOT the undisputed kings of the battleship class, especially after the recent AC boost. There are strong arguments for multiple battleships being the "best", depending on the PvP situation. For example, I could argue that the tremendous versatility of the Dominix makes it a better choice, as it is excellent in RR BS gangs, solo/small-gang PvP, and even carebearing. Any advantage Amarr battleships have is MUCH smaller than the advantage the Dramiel has over other frigates. And THIS is the problem, it's not that the Dramiel is considered the "best" by a lot of people, it's that it's the undisputed best by such a huge margin that there is no reason to ever fly another ship. In fact, the Dramiel is even worse, since it is a *single ship. This isn't even Minmatar frigates being the best in the frigate class, the other Minmatar frigates are just as worthless as the Raptor post Dramiel boost. More so, in fact, since they don't even have the excuse of using different skills and weapons to possibly give them a tiny role in the post-Dramiel world. If you can fly a Minmatar frigate, you can fly a Dramiel instead, and the Dramiel will always be the correct choice. Quote:* And no, the Dramiel isn't better in everything than other frigates. It has neither the best damage output nor the best tank, nor the most drones. What it does have is versatility and combination of dual propulsion with tank (med shield extender). So you can say that it's overall the best frigate but it doesnt excel in a particular field. Just like Amarr in their BS class, but in other way. Stop looking at single attributes. The value of a ship depends on how well it performs in a specified role, not a single attribute in isolation. When we look at the ships as a whole, we find that the Dramiel has: * The buffer tank of an AF. * More speed than interceptors. * More speed than many non-interceptor MWD frigates even when it only uses its AB. * The dps of an AF. * A drone bay larger than all but the Worm and Ishkur. * A 4th mid for dualprop fits. It's the *combination* of all these things that makes the Dramiel broken, no other frigate hull even comes close to that list. The end result is that if you look at every role that frigates fill (solo PvP, gang tackling, etc), the Dramiel is the obvious best ship for all of them. -----------
Ephemeron Retribution Corp. Initiative Associates	Posted - 2010.03.24 23:06:00 - [22] Originally by: Steve Celeste Originally by: Ephemeron Dramiel is definitely very powerful for a frigate. But instead of nerfing its stats.. why not simply increase the cost? Double the cost of building Dramiels. O **** man brilliant! That will make it..... ONE MILLION isk more expensive. For the less gifted amongst us, I want to clarify - double the current Jita contract price by inserting additional build requirements of appropriate value, also by Jita market standards. Such as - extra 70 mil in rare components.
Kimura Masahiko Genos Occidere	Posted - 2010.03.24 23:15:00 - [23] Stop trying to get things nerfed down to the lowest common denominator. Why not ask for the weaker faction ships to get another look at. I would say the first step to doing this is bump their speeds up; the Cruor and the Worm should be doing speeds similar to their racial interceptors, 3.6 ish unfitted I guess. Thats not enough to fix the problem of course but until they are significantly faster than assault frigates they will be completely useless. Please resize your signature to the maximum allowed of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Navigator
King Rothgar Amarrian Retribution	Posted - 2010.03.24 23:44:00 - [24] If the dramiel is fine, then can we please boost the slicer to do 9km/s. I mean, the dramiel would still be better in terms of tank, dps and versatility thanks to more mids + drones. I think that's fair. Obviously I'm being sarcastic here, the dramiel needs a good nerf. I don't have a problem with it being the fastest frigate hull, the problem is the level of superiority. It should be slightly better, not border line invincible. It should not be so good that it coasts right by a neuting myrmidon with a scrambler and dual webs without a care in the world. I use that example as I dropped a myrmidon in front of one last night, had him locked before he was in scramble range and he went right by me, nearly ship bumping. Such a move would spell near instant death for any other frigate hull. That dramiel just laughed it off and proceeded to tackle my myrmidon briefly before being forced to retreat by the heavily bonused warriors. I can't think of any other frigate hull, t1 or t2 that wouldn't have died horribly in that situation. My proposal is the dramiel gets a 15% speed reduction and loses a bunch of powergrid. It can be the fastest ship in game, but only marginally so. It shouldn't be 1km/s+ faster than the next fastest ship. It also needs to be brought inline with the other nano'd frigates in terms of tank. Once again, it's pirate faction so it can be a little better but the difference should not be what it is. Thus far you shall read, but no further; for this is my sig.
AdmiralJohn The Unknown Bar and Pub Elysium Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.24 23:47:00 - [25] Originally by: King Rothgar Waah I didn't get an easy kill because some guy flew better than me, please change his play style so I can get more free kills.
Roemy Schneider Vanishing Point.	Posted - 2010.03.24 23:56:00 - [26] Originally by: Ephemeron Originally by: Steve Celeste Originally by: Ephemeron Dramiel is definitely very powerful for a frigate. But instead of nerfing its stats.. why not simply increase the cost? Double the cost of building Dramiels. O **** man brilliant! That will make it..... ONE MILLION isk more expensive. For the less gifted amongst us, I want to clarify - double the current Jita contract price by inserting additional build requirements of appropriate value, also by Jita market standards. Such as - extra 70 mil in rare components. won't work - this is not a sellers' market - putting the gist back into logistics
Ephemeron Retribution Corp. Initiative Associates	Posted - 2010.03.25 00:03:00 - [27] Originally by: Roemy Schneider won't work - this is not a sellers' market Actually I am targeting the buyer, not seller. The seller usually obtains BPC, either from mission runners or NPC farmers, then builds the ship and sells it for whatever profit margin he wants. CCP can easily add 70 mil worth of additional components as requirements for building the ship. Seller would have no choice but to add that 70 mil to the price. Less people will buy it, but the ship will still pwn. Eventually, all PvP ships die, and this loss would hurt more, justifying the extra power. The simple fact of the matter is that flying Dramiel is fun. FUN As much as we care for game balance, we should never forget that the ultimate purpose of this game is to entertain. And balance can be achieved in many different ways, there is never just 1 solution. But there are boring solutions. The Great Nano Nerf is primary example of that - EVE PvP became less fun, but more balanced.
Artemis Rose Sileo In Pacis THE SPACE P0LICE	Posted - 2010.03.25 00:07:00 - [28] Making a specific ship cost more to "balance it" will never happen. They may adjust the entire ship class, but never a specific one. Stop asking for it. *** Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine, Self Banstick +2 WTB: +666 E-peen killboard stats
Ephemeron Retribution Corp. Initiative Associates	Posted - 2010.03.25 00:10:00 - [29] Originally by: Artemis Rose Making a specific ship cost more to "balance it" will never happen. They may adjust the entire ship class, but never a specific one. Stop asking for it. this statement is as pointless as my reply
z0de The Bastards The Bastards.	Posted - 2010.03.25 00:18:00 - [30] Originally by: Merin Ryskin * The buffer tank of an AF. * More speed than interceptors. * More speed than many non-interceptor MWD frigates even when it only uses its AB. * The dps of an AF. * A drone bay larger than all but the Worm and Ishkur. * A 4th mid for dualprop fits. It's the combination of all these things that makes the Dramiel broken, no other frigate hull even comes close to that list. The end result is that if you look at every role that frigates fill (solo PvP, gang tackling, etc), the Dramiel is the obvious best ship for all of them. Says it all. Ship cost is a result of the ship being good not the other way round. á á

Ephemeron Retribution Corp. Initiative Associates	Posted - 2010.03.25 00:46:00 - [31] Quote: 1) Increase the Dramiel's price. Now we still have one clearly dominant frigate completely wrecking all diversity in an entire class of ships, but now it costs a bit more to lose (but you still have to pay for one if you don't want to suck and die). This statement is easily proved wrong. If you take sample data from several popular killboards, and analyze them for frigate class ships, you would undoubtedly find that Dramiel occupies a small fraction of total frigate population. And that's despite it being relatively cheap and clearly superior to other frigs. Let me know if anyone wishes to seriously dispute this fact. The very fact that Dramiel is significantly different from other frigates is prove of its value in promoting diversity in PvP. Please examine the definition of "diversity" in your favorite dictionary. While balance through "sameness" can be achieved, by making Dramiel just like several other frigates you are removing diversity from the game. If it flys like other frigate, costs like other frigate, and performs just like another frigate, how is it helping diversity? This fundamental concept seems to be really hard to grasp to some people, including CCP developers. The same line of arguments have been used before in the Nano Nerf debates. And the result was removal of elite speed tactics from game. Diversity of PvP was decreased, even tho greater balance was achieved. Bottom line is Dramiel is fun because it is different in a successful way. Don't make EVE less fun by balance thru sameness.
yourdoingitwrong	Posted - 2010.03.25 01:36:00 - [32] there will always ALWAYS be one ship that rises above the rest in its class and that ship will always be heavily used. In this case its the dramiel. It is also nearly the most expensive t1 frig available. -To the OP- Ya get nano nerfed ya get webs nerfed and then complain you cant kill a fast frig. Stop shooting yourself in the foot its your own fault. HTFU and deal
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2010.03.25 02:05:00 - [33] Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 25/03/2010 02:06:06 Originally by: Ephemeron If you take sample data from several popular killboards, and analyze them for frigate class ships, you would undoubtedly find that Dramiel occupies a small fraction of total frigate population. And that's despite it being relatively cheap and clearly superior to other frigs. Let me know if anyone wishes to seriously dispute this fact. Please read more carefully. I said "it reduces the entire frigate class to two categories: Dramiels, and those lesser ships that you only fly *when you don't have the skills/ISK to fly a Dramiel." See if you can figure out how this statement explains the killboard stats. Quote:* The very fact that Dramiel is significantly different from other frigates is prove of its value in promoting diversity in PvP. Please examine the definition of "diversity" in your favorite dictionary. The Dramiel isn't significantly different, it's significantly *better. Quote:* While balance through "sameness" can be achieved, by making Dramiel just like several other frigates you are removing diversity from the game. If it flys like other frigate, costs like other frigate, and performs just like another frigate, how is it helping diversity? Because what you and the other Dramiel abusers don't get is that all frigates aren't the same. Pre-Dramiel you had various choices, each with their own advantages and disadvantages. Do you fly the Taranis and go for maximum speed and dps? Do you fly the Ishkur and trade some speed for the versatility of drones and enough tank to survive a few hits? Do you fly the Jaguar and trade dps for an excellent balance between speed and tank and excel in the tackler role? Post-Dramiel-boost there is no question. If you have the skills and ISK, you fly a Dramiel, end of discussion. Quote: This fundamental concept seems to be really hard to grasp to some people, including CCP developers. The same line of arguments have been used before in the Nano Nerf debates. And the result was removal of elite speed tactics from game. Diversity of PvP was decreased, even tho greater balance was achieved. Wrong again. The nano nerf fixed three problems, none of them related to diversity: 1) Speed bonuses were not stacking nerfed like other bonuses. For example, you could fit three overdrives and then fit polycarbon rigs starting over at module #1 on the stacking penalty because, despite the fact that the end result was effectively another X% speed increase, reduced mass was somehow a "different" bonus. The end result was speed tankers could stack far more modules/implants/etc before hitting diminishing returns than any other setups. 2) Faction/officer/deadspace speed mods and snake implants broke the normal rule of diminishing returns with higher ISK investment. Investing tons of ISK into those modules gave a far higher percent increase in performance than any other type of faction/officer/deadspace modules, creating a situation where you could literally buy your way to invulnerability. 3) Getting massive damage reduction was just too much of a benefit when speed is already so valuable for other reasons (range control, GTFO ability, etc). It would be like if warp disruptors also gave you a 500% dps increase, it's just too much of a benefit from a single module. So there was a simple solution: nerf overall speed, but keep relative speeds the same (IOW, a Vagabond is still faster than an Eagle, and a nano-fit/snakes/etc Vagabond is faster than both). End result: speed is still just as valuable as it was before the nerf, but some people are just too stupid to understand why. And despite all the whiners at the time, nano setups are STILL effective, so I fail to see how any diversity was lost. -----------
Keflin Geard The Circle Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2010.03.25 02:08:00 - [34] Speed is always FOM. Think about why that is. Gimmie back my old Vagabond CCP.
yourdoingitwrong	Posted - 2010.03.25 02:27:00 - [35] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 25/03/2010 02:06:06 Please read more carefully. I said "it reduces the entire frigate class to two categories: Dramiels, and those lesser ships that you only fly *when you don't have the skills/ISK to fly a Dramiel." Simply not true maybe 10 percent of our frigs killed are dramiels or less.* See if you can figure out how this statement explains the killboard stats. The Dramiel isn't significantly different, it's significantly *better. There will always be a better frigate even if the dramiel gets nerfed. Something has to be best. Deal with it* Because what you and the other Dramiel abusers don't get is that all frigates aren't the same. Pre-Dramiel you had various choices, each with their own advantages and disadvantages. Do you fly the Taranis and go for maximum speed and dps? Do you fly the Ishkur and trade some speed for the versatility of drones and enough tank to survive a few hits? Do you fly the Jaguar and trade dps for an excellent balance between speed and tank and excel in the tackler role? Post-Dramiel-boost there is no question. If you have the skills and ISK, you fly a Dramiel, end of discussion. Killboards do not support this assumtion Quote: This fundamental concept seems to be really hard to grasp to some people, including CCP developers. The same line of arguments have been used before in the Nano Nerf debates. And the result was removal of elite speed tactics from game. Diversity of PvP was decreased, even tho greater balance was achieved. Wrong again. The nano nerf fixed three problems, none of them related to diversity: End result: speed is still just as valuable as it was before the nerf, but some people are just too stupid to understand why. wrong again speed was so severely nerfed that everyone now gets in giant blobs and solo pvp is dead. And despite all the whiners at the time, nano setups are STILL effective, so I fail to see how any diversity was lost. Already explained this the nano nerf killed solo pvp eliminating a form of pvp from the game which is why everyone forms node crashing blobs and attacks each other. Should be pretty obvious imo
Ephemeron Retribution Corp. Initiative Associates	Posted - 2010.03.25 02:29:00 - [36] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Please read more carefully. I said "it reduces the entire frigate class to two categories: Dramiels, and those lesser ships that you only fly *when you don't have the skills/ISK to fly a Dramiel." Your statement does not invalidate mine, you simply switch focus on another line of thought. You have a conditional definition of "lesser ships". The same conditional reasoning can be applied to any ship that is in any way different from another. The mega price of Dramiel is actually a very big condition that makes it inferior to most t2 ships. It's important to note that I suggest doubling the price of Dramiel to further emphasize its weakness. Lets have a 160 mil frigate. Even as it outperforms other frigates 1:1, we can measure balance by overall performance. Take ship kill/death ratio, put it in proportion with isk destroyed / isk lost ratio. Increase Dram price until it becomes less efficient isk wise. I dare say that with marginal price increase, you'd find that people flying Dramiels at a loss. Originally by:* Merin Ryskin Because what you and the other Dramiel abusers don't get is that all frigates aren't the same. Pre-Dramiel you had various choices, each with their own advantages and disadvantages. Do you fly the Taranis and go for maximum speed and dps? Do you fly the Ishkur and trade some speed for the versatility of drones and enough tank to survive a few hits? Do you fly the Jaguar and trade dps for an excellent balance between speed and tank and excel in the tackler role? Post-Dramiel-boost there is no question. If you have the skills and ISK, you fly a Dramiel, end of discussion. You use language that suggests you are emotionally compromised, which effects your ability to be rational and thus unfit to make important decisions regarding Dramiel balance. I'm sorry you feel that way. But I will remind you - plenty of people choose other ships over Dramiel, it is not as dominating as you led yourself to believe. The evidence is all around you, just fly around, check your overview, write down the results, and maybe some rationality will prevail.
Lucifer's Ghost Minmatar Native Freshfood	Posted - 2010.03.25 02:35:00 - [37] Originally by: Ephemeron maybe some rationality will prevail. In EVE? You are kidding right? -------------------------------------------------- Real Men Pod Tank
Ralnik Mutineers	Posted - 2010.03.25 02:42:00 - [38] Originally by: Merin Ryskin TL,DR: people are idiots. The Dramiel is not broken because it is impossible to kill, it is broken because it reduces the entire frigate class to two categories: Dramiels, and those lesser ships that you only fly when you don't have the skills/ISK to fly a Dramiel. Pre-Dramiel-boost, there was tons of diversity in the frigate class and many good choices. Post-boost, there is one clear winner and no diversity. It should be obvious why this is a bad thing. This pretty much.. It sucks to whine about a ship but really the Dramiels have killing having fun in T1 frigs. I barely bother to undock a Rifter anymore because I know it will just end up getting ganked by a Dramiel. The Worm on the other hand needs a bit of a speed buff. It screams frig that does damage at range but it's unGodly slow. ..... FactionWarfare.com New forum dedicated to all four FW factions.
yourdoingitwrong	Posted - 2010.03.25 02:53:00 - [39] Edited by: yourdoingitwrong on 25/03/2010 02:53:16 Originally by: Ralnik This pretty much.. It sucks to whine about a ship but really the Dramiels have killing having fun in T1 frigs. I barely bother to undock a Rifter anymore because I know it will just end up getting ganked by a Dramiel. The Worm on the other hand needs a bit of a speed buff. It screams frig that does damage at range but it's unGodly slow. And why shouldn't a 70M isk frig kill your 100k isk frig. ? Should my faction Nightmare also be evenly matched with a dominix? You people are freaking stoopid.
AdmiralJohn The Unknown Bar and Pub Elysium Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.25 02:56:00 - [40] Originally by: yourdoingitwrong And why shouldn't a 70M isk frig kill your 100k isk frig. ? Should my faction Nightmare also be evenly matched with a dominix? You people are freaking stoopid. This.

Amberlamps	Posted - 2010.03.25 03:10:00 - [41] Edited by: Amberlamps on 25/03/2010 03:11:18 I think there is a unique difference between the variety of T1/T2 ships and the Dramiel, they outclass all frigates and rarely struggle. The only other frigate I know that could stand a chance against the Dramiel is a daredevil. The Dram' pilots seem to follow a pretty standard fit, I've seen 2 commonly used fits, all of which revolve around its godlike speed. Like someone previously said, I don't even bother un-docking a rifter or other. Especially a Harpy or Hawk, why should an assault ship... T2, fail so hard against another frigate. The worm is a big issue in my eyes though, I would like to see the worm capable of doing something however it just seems have no received the lovin' the Dramiel. Someone said in one of the first few posts "learn how to fit your ships". You seem to be believing everyone should anticipate a dramiel appearing... yes the mystery aspect of what someone else might be flying if you dont have much intel is fun. However to have to completely refit so specifically purely to catch a FRIGATE which can solo cruisers and have been known to solo battleships as well is quite ridiculous. I just don't like how it seems to be the "solopwnboat" we always speak of. It deserves a light clubbing from the nerfbat. However If you refuse to nerf it, at least give GODDAMN MOTHER ****ING ROFLKETS A BOOST! As well as assault ships... because come on... they need that second bonus.
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2010.03.25 03:10:00 - [42] Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 25/03/2010 03:16:26 Originally by: yourdoingitwrong Simply not true maybe 10 percent of our frigs killed are dramiels or less. Why is reading so difficult? Dramiels are 10% of the frigates you kill because most people: 1) Can't afford a Dramiel at all. 2) Can't afford to fly a Dramiel in the role they are currently flying a frigate in (for example, fleet tackler that is likely to die). 3) Don't have the skills to fly a Dramiel well. Quote: There will always be a better frigate even if the dramiel gets nerfed. Something has to be best. Deal with it Is literacy not your strong point? I said *significantly* better. There is a huge difference between "well, I think the Dramiel is the best, but there are other good frigates" and "the Dramiel is so absurdly better than everything else that all other frigates are obsolete." Please try to pay attention. Quote: wrong again speed was so severely nerfed that everyone now gets in giant blobs and solo pvp is dead. Sorry, but you're an idiot. Not only is solo PvP still alive, but nano setups are still effective. I suppose in your delusional world nanocanes, nano Curses, Vagabonds, etc, all of those ships don't exist? Originally by: Ephemeron Your statement does not invalidate mine, you simply switch focus on another line of thought. You have a conditional definition of "lesser ships". The same conditional reasoning can be applied to any ship that is in any way different from another. The mega price of Dramiel is actually a very big condition that makes it inferior to most t2 ships. Oh FFS, why is this so complicated? Even if you feel that the Armageddon is better than the Dominix, the Armageddon does not make the Dominix obsolete. The Dominix still has its advantages, and there are still people who will disagree with you and prefer the Dominix. This is *diversity. The Dramiel is entirely different, since it is clearly better than all other frigates. There is no disagreement on this point, the only argument is whether the Dramiel is better by a large enough margin that it needs to be nerfed. This is NOT diversity, because there is a single option that is the clear "correct" choice. Quote:* It's important to note that I suggest doubling the price of Dramiel to further emphasize its weakness. Lets have a 160 mil frigate. Even as it outperforms other frigates 1:1, we can measure balance by overall performance. Take ship kill/death ratio, put it in proportion with isk destroyed / isk lost ratio. Increase Dram price until it becomes less efficient isk wise. I dare say that with marginal price increase, you'd find that people flying Dramiels at a loss. Repeat after me: UNBALANCED AT ANY PRICE. Having tons of ISK entitle you to overpowered ships is **ty game design, and precisely what CCP is trying to avoid with the steep diminishing returns on officer/faction/deadspace modules. Quote: You use language that suggests you are emotionally compromised, which effects your ability to be rational and thus unfit to make important decisions regarding Dramiel balance. And you use language that suggest you are a semi-literate moron who doesn't want his overpowered ship nerfed. Quote:** But I will remind you - plenty of people choose other ships over Dramiel, it is not as dominating as you led yourself to believe. The evidence is all around you, just fly around, check your overview, write down the results, and maybe some rationality will prevail. Yeah, there are a lot of people who recognize that the Dramiel is overpowered as hell but either can't afford to fly one, or don't have the skills for one. That doesn't make the ship balanaced. -----------
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2010.03.25 03:16:00 - [43] And can we please stop this **ing stupid argument about how "it's expensive, therefore it is ok for it to be overpowered". Economics 101: CCP does not set the price on faction frigates.** The Dramiel is not expensive because CCP deliberately designed it as an expensive but powerful ship, it is expensive because CCP accidentally made one of the equally-expensive (in theory) faction frigates massively overpowered, resulting in huge increases in demand. Econ 101, demand goes up, price goes up. Please get your cause and effect straight before you continue posting. -----------
Amberlamps	Posted - 2010.03.25 03:20:00 - [44] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Oh FFS, why is this so complicated? This is the internet isn't it? I refer you to this to help you understand. Image I however completely agree with your points. What frustrates me more is how someone believes driving the price up or for a matter of fact doubling the Dramiels "cost" will somehow help in a player driven market? Increasing the price of a ship that wreaks havoc and solopwns all frigates in site and then decides to come back for something bigger and continues does not result in a fair balance.
MrBinary Minmatar Binary Systems	Posted - 2010.03.25 03:20:00 - [45] Who got owned by a Dramiel and called the waaaaambulance? Yet another "nerf the Dramiel" thread...gotta be some sort of record by now. "[ 2004.05.20 20:11:42 ] Hodal Xibur > Die MrBinary"
Amberlamps	Posted - 2010.03.25 03:29:00 - [46] Originally by: MrBinary Who got owned by a Dramiel and called the waaaaambulance? Yet another "nerf the Dramiel" thread...gotta be some sort of record by now. Wow, such a constructive and vastly informative comment. Please enlighten us more with your fantastic contributions towards our discussion about balancing this frigate. Comment finished Yes/No? If yes end sarcasm Sarcasm unit deactivated.
King Rothgar Amarrian Retribution	Posted - 2010.03.25 04:16:00 - [47] Mmm, I'm now opposed to nerfing the dramiel. I decided to go out and buy one, man does it make my slicer look like a crap ass ship. My old slicer did 4km/s with 3 overdrives, the dramiel does 5.8km/s with just 2. Both have similar tanks and comparable dps. However that's without overloading, if I overload that mwd, suddenly my dramiel goes around 9km/s while my old slicer does a truly pathetic 5.5km/s. Yep, dramiels it is from now on. Sure my slicer has a better optimal but that huge speed advantage easily outweighs it. The fact that I can toss on an AB in addition to my mwd or some more EW (scrambler/web/ECM burst) is just some icing. Jesus, I could trimark this thing and it would still be faster than everything else in eve (save other dramiels). This is not overpowered at all. Seriously though, I did buy a dramiel. It's overpowered and really does make every other frigate I can fly look like garbage regardless of what I'm trying to do with it. Whether it be tackling bigger ships or ganking other frigate hulls, it's the king and not by a small margin. On an unrelated note: Solo pvp is alive and well. I had several solo kills last night. Thus far you shall read, but no further; for this is my sig.
Tyremis The Perfect Storm Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2010.03.25 04:34:00 - [48] some people are severely over stating their case here. Some people just cant handle the fact that some ships are better than others. It doesnt mean a good taranis pilot cant kill a dramiel. Happens all the time. My Vaga will lolpwn a deimos guarenteed and its not faction vs non faction its t2 against t2. There are far more broken ships in the game than the dramiel. You guys are just mad your not good enough to catch them/kill them. This was the same with the nano nerf just called for the nerf rather than finding creative ways of killing them when the tools are available. I mean its a t1 frig ffs train for it and use one yourself if you think its so OP. Nothings stopping you. This is thread is pathetic.
Shant City of Certitude Zinc Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.25 04:49:00 - [49] Well the btcng can stop here because it's going to get nurfed. Other ships have got the shaft for less (first comes to mind the nosdomi and also domis that had 20 Ogre II's hovering around them, oooo and the mwd raven combined with several series of torpedoes launched, yes the nanonerf, falcon) and they could be countered more easily than the Dramiel. CCP has done it before and trust me, this will be no exception. This is a textbook example of a ship that will get nerfed. That is all.

CCP Applebabe	Posted - 2010.03.25 05:13:00 - [50] Moved from EVE General Discussion. Applebabe Community Representative CCP Hf, EVE Online Contact us


Mistah Ewedynao Gallente	Posted - 2010.03.25 05:18:00 - [51] I have Snakes....I fly a Dramiel To the OP...I will BUY you a Dramiel...and kick your butt in an.....Ishkur. 20M AF If you lose you pay me back the cost of the Dramiel. If you win...you can keep it. alt post BTW, but I am serious. Bring it on. I grow tired of your endless drivel.
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.03.25 06:15:00 - [52] Originally by: yourdoingitwrong Already explained this the nano nerf killed solo pvp eliminating a form of pvp from the game which is why everyone forms node crashing blobs and attacks each other. Should be pretty obvious imo Accurate only for the pilots that were using one of the non-vagabond variants. For everyone else (>99+% player base) Quantum Rise expanded PvP both solo, gang and fleet tremendously. Not only did frigates, cruisers and even destroyers become viable choices but afterburners started being used as MWDs became a liability in some circumstances and battleships lost their iWin status against anything smaller thanks to the god-web. Nano is still alive and well but it now requires actual skill and sacrifices to pull off properly .. no more WoW-style farming PvP. @Merin: Give it up. What needs to be said has been said. You have about as much hope of convincing the FoTM-jockeys (script kiddies of Eve) of anything relating to balance as you have of convincing a rock not to sink in a lake.
Mistah Ewedynao Gallente	Posted - 2010.03.25 06:26:00 - [53] Originally by: Merin Ryskin The Dramiel is not expensive because CCP deliberately designed it as an expensive but powerful ship, it is expensive because CCP accidentally made one of the equally-expensive (in theory) faction frigates massively overpowered, resulting in huge increases in demand. Econ 101, demand goes up, price goes up. Please get your cause and effect straight before you continue posting. If it is so HOT....why is the Daredevil so much more Expensive? All CCP has to do is adjust the Dramiel BPC drop rate...make it REALLY hurt to lose one. BTW, learn to fly one...they rock.
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2010.03.25 06:44:00 - [54] Originally by: Tyremis My Vaga will lolpwn a deimos guarenteed and its not faction vs non faction its t2 against t2. There are far more broken ships in the game than the dramiel. You guys are just mad your not good enough to catch them/kill them. This was the same with the nano nerf just called for the nerf rather than finding creative ways of killing them when the tools are available. Oh FFS, why does nobody ever pay attention to what has already been said? I repeat: The problem is not that the Dramiel is impossible to beat, the problem is that the Dramiel is so much better than every other frigate that it removes all diversity from the frigate class. Quote: I mean its a t1 frig ffs train for it and use one yourself if you think its so OP. Nothings stopping you. This is thread is pathetic. Yes, let's all just fly Dramiels. Why don't we just have CCP delete every other frigate in the game instead of fixing the one overpowered ship? Originally by: Mistah Ewedynao If it is so HOT....why is the Daredevil so much more Expensive? Drop rates? I don't know. But this just proves my point: if the Dramiel's overpowered state is justified by its high price, then why is the Daredevil *more* expensive but much weaker? Quote: All CCP has to do is adjust the Dramiel BPC drop rate...make it REALLY hurt to lose one. Repeat after me: UNBALANCED AT ANY PRICE. There is a reason why faction/officer/deadspace modules have such severe diminishing returns. CCP has deliberately (and for good reason) made it so that you can not simply buy your way to victory. Making the Dramiel even more expensive to "justify" it being overpowered would not only be ****ing stupid, it would completely contradict this policy. -----------
El Mauru Amarr EVERYTHING IS TERRIBLE	Posted - 2010.03.25 07:00:00 - [55] Balancing by cost is just plain stupid for so many obvious reasons that it isn't even worth discussing anymore. For the sake of it: Balance usually requires a counterweight- and if the only counterweight is the cost to reach one side of the scale it is not "balance" but a "watermark". The dramiel is overpowered. Maybe not by quite as large a margin as people make it out to be, but it is. It dominates not only one specific frigate class, but pretty much all of them and does so at a degree that is almost hilarious. I know they are fun to fly- but name me one other frigate which could stand its ground against an experienced dramiel pilot. We aren't even at the peak of the good old vagabond-whine where one option was that you could at least scare it off- the dramiel will pretty much whipe the floor with any other ship of its hull-size if flown right and pretty much exclusively without even the notion of a challenge. Dog-fighting in interceptors/assault frigates and the tackling game is too integral a part of Eve combat to make it that obvious a choice for best frigate hull. That being said: Don't nerf it too much plx. It is a pretty sexy ship. Please re-size your signature to the maximum allowed file size of 24000 bytes. Zymurgist
Kipina	Posted - 2010.03.25 07:01:00 - [56] Dramiel has the tank and speed and the slots, so why not increase its sig radius? it would equalize the speed issue a bit, therefore its tank wouldnt last as long and it would start to worry dram pilots a bit more if someone is actually hitting you.
Sarah Norbulk Dawn of a new Empire The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.03.25 07:19:00 - [57] The Daredevil is quite effective at killing most interceptors, t1 frigates, some t1 cruisers, and Dramiels. A decent pilot with a Daredevil can kill a Dramiel quite easy as the EHP is slightly in favor of the Dramiel, but the DPS is in favor of the Daredevil by far. The biggest issue with the Daredevil vs Dramiel fight is that the Daredevil either has to get lucky to catch the Dramiel or the Dramiel has to want to fight. That being said, I do think that Dramiels are slightly stronger than the other frigates. I also think that a massive nerf would be overkill and something as simple as lowering the dronebay and bandwidth could bring it back in line. I would also like to say that even though it fits a MSE, without t2 resists the EHP is a decent amount short of an AF, although it is a decent amount more than an interceptor.
Mistah Ewedynao Gallente	Posted - 2010.03.25 07:23:00 - [58] cue WWII: Nerf the ME-262! It's uber! BTW, last time I looked this is a MULTI player game. Just like in WWII, swarms of "inferior" fighters killed the uber ships.
Vladimir Norkoff Income Redistribution Service	Posted - 2010.03.25 07:34:00 - [59] Merin is right. I hate propping up a self-important assclown, but he is right. Read what he's actually posting instead of just kneejerk reacting with "No! No! No! Don't take away my pwn-machine!". And as for the Worm. It needs some serious love. It's only advantage over the Ishkur is the ability to spew a pair of light missiles. And since they are unbonused and given it's terribad speed, that's not much of an advantage at all. Best suggestion so far is a drone damage bonus. Give it a base drone bay of 25-40m3 and then +5% drone dmg/lvl. Then it would be a slow-flying hard-hitting brick - like a cross btwn a Drake and Domi but in frigate size. Taxman IX: Risky Venture
Umega Republic Military School	Posted - 2010.03.25 08:01:00 - [60] Edited by: Umega on 25/03/2010 08:01:27 There needs to be a nerf alright.. a serious nerf.. Need to nerf how often a single person can create threads! masternerdguy.. I'm sure you've used google/yahoo/ask or some search engine before. Please quit pretending you don't know what a search function is. Get off the shortbus cause I'm sure they don't allow trolls on their.. them poor kids have enough problems to be dealing with a wannabe. PS.. nerf dram. A single frig that requires 2 T2/pirate/faction frigs to take down it down.. is a 'broken' ship in its class. Spare me the stories.. I've seen, read, experinced them enough. Focus on the main issue folks.. nerf masternerdguy privilages first! ---------------------------------------- -Treat the EVE Market like you're a pimp and it is your 'employee'.. freely fondle it as you wish and make it pay you for it-

buttesauce	Posted - 2010.03.25 08:09:00 - [61] Dont nerf the dramiel! Make the other ships better! Every ship should be viable to use!
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2010.03.25 08:47:00 - [62] Edited by: Gypsio III on 25/03/2010 08:47:56 Originally by: buttesauce Dont nerf the dramiel! Make the other ships better! Every ship should be viable to use! On another forum I took this facile statement and tried modelling the boost to the Worm that would be necessary for it to be balanced with the Dramiel. I used the following assumptions: 1. Since the Dramiel has twice the speed and three times the acceleration, and since mobilty is so important in frigates, the Worm must easily destroy the Dramiel if it can tackle it. 2. The Worm must be able to apply some level of DPS to an untackled Dramiel, because its weapons systems (drones, SMLs) are designed to be used against such a ship. The current Worm can't do either. The Dramiel is fast enough to outrun Warriors and LMs when untackled. So it needs a greater missile velocity bonus and a drone damage and speed bonus. Close in, the Worm has just over half the DPS of the Dramiel and similar EHP, considering weapon damage types. Result - even if the Worm can catch the Dramiel, the Dramiel just ganks it in its face and flies off. So it needs more DPS. A lot more DPS. Enough to substantially outweigh the 200 DPS of an overheated Dramiel - because otherwise, what's the point? But there's another problem - it can't gank what it can't keep tackled. And it can't keep tackled a ship that does over 1000 m/s webbed and scrambled. So it needs a web strength bonus. End result - to be balanced with the Dramiel, Worm would need 200% missile damage bonus, 20%/level missile velocity bonus, 10%/level web strength bonus and 10%/level drone damage, EHP and speed. You might think that such a Worm is stupid. I'd agree. But so is the current Dramiel.
1600 RT	Posted - 2010.03.25 09:24:00 - [63] dramiel is fine. but if anything need to happen: leave the dramiel as it is stat wise move 1 mid to 1 low result it wont be able to dual prop and tank or web + tank, if the pilots want some form of a tank they will have to armor tank it wich its not good for speed.
CinaneK	Posted - 2010.03.25 10:25:00 - [64] Stop crying about dramiels power .. 1. Thorax - 1600mm RT + web + scrambler + AB + 4x small neutrons + 1 neut + 5 hobgoblins eats dramiel easy (3x trimark if u want)(this is already tried by me and tooks only 10 shoots to kill dramiel) 2. Stabber - LSE + 4x 180mm autocannon + 1 neut eats dramiel easy (3x shield extender if u want) i can fly dramiel and i can say for sure its not so imbalanced and u can pwn him solo whit t1 cruisers fitted to 20 mil ISK - dramiel got much better DPS then any of these 2 ships, but, try to brake the TANK whit that ... EHP makes everything web him, scramble him, neut him so he cant use even his Afterburner till he orbiting and just look how ur drones + turrets eat his shield down
chrisss0r	Posted - 2010.03.25 10:55:00 - [65] Originally by: CinaneK web him, scramble him, neut him so he cant use even his Afterburner till he orbiting and just look how ur drones + turrets eat his shield down wow thx, i'm sure no one has ever thought of that btw: 10 km/s curses are not overpowered, you just have to scram, web and neut them while stomping them to death with alot of dps :P
Dead3y3	Posted - 2010.03.25 12:11:00 - [66] Hmm...I have quite a few Dramiel kills. Dram Kill 1 Dram Kill 2 Dram Kill 3
Calydonian Boar	Posted - 2010.03.25 12:31:00 - [67] I still don't understand how you managed to lose a cane to a dramiel... do you have killmail posted somewhere?
Stuart Price Caldari The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2010.03.25 12:42:00 - [68] I do almost nothing but fly frigates in solo and small gang pvp. I can fly every single frigate ever (and have actually flown most of them, in pvp). The Dramiel is overpowered. By a very, very long way. It's not even an opinion, it's plain fact. Literally the ONLY reason I would ever use one of my other frigs is to look less threatening and actually get more fights. "Whaaaaaaaaaa stop whining (insert irrelevant argument here) nub". 1. Expensive ships should be better. Not only does this logic lead to "the most expensive ship should therefore be the best" but misses the point that CCP do not directly set the prices. It is expensive because people will pay that much for one and only a complete idiot would sell for less! 2. (Ship + setup) kills Dramiels easily. Learn to fly nub. Name one frigate it WON'T kill. Oh dear, you proved nothing except its possible to create dedicated anti-frigate ships that do nothing to prove or disprove the lack of balance withing the frigate class itself. 3. Here's a killmail where I killed a Dram with another frigate. Yes well some people just can't fly or fit ships to save their lives. You killed an idiot, well done. There's a MUCH bigger list of times where competent pilots in Dramiels have owned the crap out of stuff. Ultimately though, I can rest assured that I'm right. History has shown that there are always people willing to defend the indefensible. There were people who thought Stabberbonds were fine. There were people who thought the old nano-nos Curse was fine. There were people who thought the Gankageddon was fine. And so on and so on. It WILL get nerfed, so we may as well accept that it's currently insane and enjoy it while it lasts. Putting the 'irate' into 'Pirate'
inyreye GK inc.	Posted - 2010.03.25 13:01:00 - [69] CCP boosted faction frigates to be better than their t1 or t2 counterparts, that was the whole point. And don't ***** at CCP for making them expensive, blame the angel mission runners and NPCers. ISK and LP wise, the dramiel costs 1/3 LESS to build than your standard empire faction frigate (see imperial slicer, which is selling for 28 million).
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.03.25 13:07:00 - [70] The main point Merin is trying to make that everyone seems to have conveniently ignored, well, in fact I'll sum it up with this: Scenario: you are skilled and funded enough for every frigate, t2, pirate etc. and need a "general purpose" one (i.e not a nichT thing like a Kitsune or Sentinel) and are picking based on sheer effectiveness. This also assumes you can competantly fly them all. Try to justify using anything other than the Dramiel. Personally I'm in favour of the midslot removal, make it pick between dual prop and tank because as it stands now - where exactly is the weakness of this ship? It's got everything. With one single fit. _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.

chrisss0r	Posted - 2010.03.25 14:02:00 - [71] Originally by: inyreye CCP boosted faction frigates to be better than their t1 or t2 counterparts, that was the whole point. yes but not being better than all of them in every single attribute at the same time. In choice theory the dramiel just dominates all other options
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2010.03.25 14:03:00 - [72] It's got too much DPS as well. It's fine being the fastest and quickest-accelerating frigate out there, but being able to into scrambler range and apply 200 DPS is just insane. Add decent buffer and the GTFO ability that 1 km/s speed while webbed and scrambled gives you... and capless damage-mostly-selectable weapons... The acceleration thing is a bit silly too. A typical Worm fit might have 3.1 km/s speed with an align time of 4.4 s. That means that it takes 4.4 s to accelerate to 2325 m/s, an average acceleration of 530 m/ss. A typical Dramiel might have 5.6 km/s speed with an align time of 3.2 s, giving an average acceleration to 75% speed of 1300 m/ss. The Dramiel has over twice the speed, almost three times the acceleration and much more DPS. It's insane. As in, completely-bat****-mental insane. Having speed is fine. Having lightning-quick acceleration in conjunction is not, neither is having 200 DPS to gank anything that can catch you.
El Mauru Amarr EVERYTHING IS TERRIBLE	Posted - 2010.03.25 14:09:00 - [73] Edited by: El Mauru on 25/03/2010 14:09:42 the dramiel doesn't really need a big nerf: Even a slight nudge in any of these directions would help. Some options which might help level the playing field without fully disposing of its awesomeness: - decrease its locking range/time so it becomes more difficult to actually tackle stuff with it properly. - increase its sig radius so it can be hit more easily by missiles/at range. - lowering its effective hit-points or capacitor-recharge/capacity so it becomes more of a one-trick pony. - make it drastically more difficult to overheat. Just one of these changes would make it more vulnerable without doing away with what makes the bloody thing so much fun to fly. I'm firmly against removing its ability to dual-prop because that aspect offers so much interesting tactical diversity. To repeat myself: I'm perfectly fine with it being the best frigate- it's just the margin by which it dominates which is giving me headaches. Please re-size your signature to the maximum allowed file size of 24000 bytes. Zymurgist
Captain Organs Amarr Standings Increase	Posted - 2010.03.25 14:11:00 - [74] My friends and I went out looking for some fights and we came across two dramiels. We were in a Vexor, Enyo and Ishkur. We lost all our ships. Didn't even kill one dramiel. We had them webbed and scrammed we managed to get them into hull but when we did they'd just move outside of our own range and get away. The two Assault frigates were Afterburner fit. I am for nerfing the dramiel. I can't explain any reason not to fly them. Especially reading the posts in this topic. I understand that Factions ships cost a lot more than your typical T1 frigate or even your T2 frigate and they should have a leg up. However, it shouldn't be a hands down win. Especially when they're outnumbered and have a cruiser class ship. I must admit the guy in the Vexor was newer to pew pewing. But the two AF pilots were seasoned in frigate combat. It's no one attribute of the dramiel that makes it broken. It's the combination of a bunch of things.
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.03.25 14:12:00 - [75] Just to make sure everyone realise that there are more than one pirate frigate in need of attention. Originally by: masternerdguy Worm Able to store 5 light drones right off the bat. It needs a 10% bonus to drone dmg per level of caldari frig It also needs a 5% bonus to shield resistance and shield capacity per caldari frig. Resistance plus capacity just pigeon-holes them into using medium extender buffers. If such a capacity bonus is to be then fittings need to be tweaked so we have to make some hard choices or fork over the ISK if going for maximum cookie cutter. Give it a static 50m3 dronebay, 25m3 bandwidth and the drone damage/hp bonus -> miniature Gila/Rattlesnake. Last pirate frigate that is often forgotten is the now rather mediocre Succubus. It doesn't do anything except track like a champion, that is no role for a hard-as-nails pirate ship. To fix: - Add 100m/s to base speed, keep mass/agility as is. - Swap Caldari frigate bonus from 5% damage to 10% range. Make it a shield based souped up Slicer. - Move utility to low and increase CPU to allow twin HS + DCU + rest. Why: - Because it is slow as hell even for a frigate. With its mass/agility inherited from the Caldari it wont be a major kiting boat regardless of speed. - Because all the tracking in the world wont help you if you cant catch/reach the enemy. - Because the twin-neut/neut-nos utility setup is covered in spades by the Cruor and Sansha is all about gank (more HS!) Managed to not mention the infernal one \o\ \o/ /o/
Dr Fighter	Posted - 2010.03.25 14:20:00 - [76] give intys a bonus to overheating boost percentage. overheated mwd to 10km/s for a burst or two, BAM overheated scrambler = one tackled dram. intys hsould be fastest in game even if not all the time made them better at catching stuff (like their piont range bonus does atm). thats the solution, the dram is perfectly good at what it does by similar margins the other angel ships are. Maybe the 3 drones are slightly overkill, but not major.
Kessiaan Minmatar Vagrants Inc	Posted - 2010.03.25 14:46:00 - [77] T1 > T2 > Faction is fine What's broke about the Dramiel is that it's a pirate AF and a pirate inty in one hull. Like all FOTM ships it attracts bad pilots like flies to ****, so yes, if you're somewhat competent you'll get some solo Dramiel kills. But against pilots who actually know what they're doing the best you can do in anything other than a specialized anti-Dramiel fit is drive them off, much like the old nano boats. I think the best solution I've heard so far is move a mid to a low. It retains the versatility to be either a super AF or a super interceptor, but not both at the same time like it is now. I think the entire lineup of faction frigs needs a serious look at, there shouldn't be just one that is clearly superior.
Meeko Atari	Posted - 2010.03.25 15:06:00 - [78] On a side note... I find it very hypocritical that CCP would claim that ships need to go slower for "server performance" then introduce ships that can approach / exceed that speed limit. I do not like nerfs I feel that frig speeds and agility should be increased ( to at least Angel specs ) across the entire ship class.
Jotobar	Posted - 2010.03.25 15:11:00 - [79] Originally by: Stuart Price It WILL get nerfed, so we may as well accept that it's currently insane and enjoy it while it lasts. That's exactly my view on it aswell. Follows the usual mmo patch/expansion/addition recepie: Something changes, advanced players understand how to abuse the change, it becomes popular with those adapting and unpopular with those not adapting, if it's too strong it gets changed next iteration. Don't belive there's anything wrong with that, it's a reward for an early adaptor, they got to abuse the change longer than the ones that joined late or didn't join at all. fake edit: don't fly em myself and avoid fighting them mostly.
Zhilia Mann	Posted - 2010.03.25 16:07:00 - [80] Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Give it a static 50m3 dronebay, 25m3 bandwidth and the drone damage/hp bonus -> miniature Gila/Rattlesnake. Wait, a really solid drone-based frigate? I think I love you. Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Last pirate frigate that is often forgotten is the now rather mediocre Succubus. It doesn't do anything except track like a champion, that is no role for a hard-as-nails pirate ship. To fix: - Add 100m/s to base speed, keep mass/agility as is. - Swap Caldari frigate bonus from 5% damage to 10% range. Make it a shield based souped up Slicer. - Move utility to low and increase CPU to allow twin HS + DCU + rest. Why: - Because it is slow as hell even for a frigate. With its mass/agility inherited from the Caldari it wont be a major kiting boat regardless of speed. - Because all the tracking in the world wont help you if you cant catch/reach the enemy. - Because the twin-neut/neut-nos utility setup is covered in spades by the Cruor and Sansha is all about gank (more HS!) Have to agree here too. I was hoping to hop into a mini-Phantasm and instead got.... Nothing. Moar HS indeed; I still haven't found a good use for the utilities. Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Managed to not mention the infernal one \o\ \o/ /o/ And for that I salute you.

Gibbo3771	Posted - 2010.03.25 16:21:00 - [81] Paying 200mil for a frig + fit, its not overpowered....daredevil gets like 450 dps, dramiel gets like 180. Whoever said the dramiel gets same dps as an af, reli fails at fittng there af. Can get my ishkur uptoo 250dps and the enyo to 300. Only thing a dramiel has dfferent than a t2 frig is speed, so your paying n extra 100mil for the "gtfo" capability
Boss Lemming Gallente BOUNTY. HUNTER. MINING. EXSPLORATION. CORPORATION. HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.03.25 16:44:00 - [82] Edited by: Boss Lemming on 25/03/2010 16:44:10 Originally by: Gibbo3771 Paying 200mil for a frig + fit, its not overpowered....daredevil gets like 450 dps, dramiel gets like 180. Whoever said the dramiel gets same dps as an af, reli fails at fittng there af. Can get my ishkur uptoo 250dps and the enyo to 300. Only thing a dramiel has dfferent than a t2 frig is speed, so your paying n extra 100mil for the "gtfo" capability How mentally deficient are you? It's expensive because it's overpowered, not the other way around. edit: **ing **ed word filter Originally by:** Alchemist's Alt I stopped mining because you mean pirates kept blowing me up.[...] now I am doing all the blowing up. Shadow
Dav Varan	Posted - 2010.03.25 16:47:00 - [83] Dramiel needs to lose its drone bay. Drones give it too many options and firepower at range. Thats all thats needed to fix the Dram. Worm needs more love. 50m3 drone bay as standard , 25 drone bandwidth. 10% to drone hit points and damage per gal frigate level and 5% to shield resists per cal frigate level should fix it. Yeah it still wont be able to take on a dram , but it's be a very nice frig for drone fp.
eXtas NibbleTek	Posted - 2010.03.25 16:51:00 - [84] I agree with the dramiel not beeing balanced at all compared to other frigs. it needs a nerf, not a huge one since it should be good beeing a faction ship but atm its just too good frig killer and takler and dps ship at the same time. - slots are fine, maybe remove litle pg to make it harder to fit - damagebonus and turrets are fine - speed is fine, maybe add a litle mass to make it more balanced - drones are not fine!!! 3 lights + 1 spare???? just removing the drone bay would balance the ship bringing it from the ship that does all to just a good takler that can kill some frigs. - lockingrange/scan res are way to high compared to other frigs not all these changes are needed but allready some would balance it. atm it gets the best from both claw and stiletto + drones and beter stats.
Kendon Riddick	Posted - 2010.03.25 16:54:00 - [85] Originally by: Boss Lemming Edited by: Boss Lemming on 25/03/2010 16:44:10 Originally by: Gibbo3771 Paying 200mil for a frig + fit, its not overpowered....daredevil gets like 450 dps, dramiel gets like 180. Whoever said the dramiel gets same dps as an af, reli fails at fittng there af. Can get my ishkur uptoo 250dps and the enyo to 300. Only thing a dramiel has dfferent than a t2 frig is speed, so your paying n extra 100mil for the "gtfo" capability How mentally deficient are you? It's expensive because it's overpowered, not the other way around. edit: **ing ****ed word filter dont flame him for being correct, you are ignorant. the faction frigs are all player found/made the supply is always way way higher than the number available, yes a good ship will be even more expensive. by your rationale the daredevil should be better than the dram, but it isnt.
Boss Lemming Gallente BOUNTY. HUNTER. MINING. EXSPLORATION. CORPORATION. HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.03.25 17:18:00 - [86] Originally by: Kendon riddick by your rationale the daredevil should be better than the dram, but it isnt. Point out to me where I said that the only reason something can be expensive is because it's overpowered. Spoiler: you can't Originally by: Alchemist's Alt I stopped mining because you mean pirates kept blowing me up.[...] now I am doing all the blowing up. Shadow
Terianna Eri Amarr Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn	Posted - 2010.03.25 17:52:00 - [87] Originally by: Gibbo3771 Paying 200mil for a frig + fit, its not overpowered....daredevil gets like 450 dps, dramiel gets like 180. Whoever said the dramiel gets same dps as an af, reli fails at fittng there af. Can get my ishkur uptoo 250dps and the enyo to 300. Only thing a dramiel has dfferent than a t2 frig is speed, so your paying n extra 100mil for the "gtfo" capability Dramiel has around 180 DPS with drones which is roughly AF-level. It's not more than all the AFs but it's on par with them (retribution, way more than vengeance, harpy, etc). Also dramiels don't cost anywhere near 200 mil, I just bought one today (might as well jump on the bandwagon while it lasts) for like 85-90 with fit... ________________ Originally by: CCP Incognito PS the "time to P*nis" is the shortest time recorded in human history. :)
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2010.03.25 17:58:00 - [88] Edited by: Omara Otawan on 25/03/2010 17:59:28 Originally by: Obsidian Hawk Dear CCP I don't know how to fit the following on my ships. Web Neut webber drones neut drones smart bombs. Quoting for hilarity. Webber drones on frigates, against frigates? Oh dear... Neut drones, true monsters of efficiency against capneutral turrets... Smart bombs, wtf? Everything apart from large smartbombs is flat out broken Thanks for your advice, but try to actually fly a frigate in pvp or at the very least open up EFT and check the stats of the items and ships in question before posting nonsense like the above.
Ephemeron Retribution Corp. Initiative Associates	Posted - 2010.03.25 19:17:00 - [89] There's another battle of ideology here. It's starting to look more and more like the Nano-Nerf debate, which spanned 100+ pages in several threads. I gained quite a bit of insight in how people think about these things. The conflicting ideologies are: 1) belief that the price of destroyable item does not play any role in the power balance of that item 2) belief that price of item is part of the balance It seems to me that the confusion arises mostly from past experiences of computer games. In most multiplayer games, there is no serious economic element. In addition to that, people often have a narrow view of "fair" competition. They may think it's fair to have a 2 on 1 fight between battleships, but not fair if the 1 battleship pilot has much more money and invested it in powerful expensive modules that make him superior to the 2 enemies. Just that idea that 1 can beat 2 because he invested more economic resources is hard to comprehend for some people. It goes against their ideology of game balance. But EVE is an economic game. Most of the things in EVE are produced and destroyed, things have real value, that requires real work to obtain. True game balance is intimately integrated with economic aspects. The economic value of things has real impact on who fights who, who wins and who loses. It is a greater dimension of PvP balance. And too many people are blind to that other dimension, they see things in their flat world and they get angry because it doesn't make sense to them. Anyway, right now I'm seen a big anti-Nano Nerf supporter, just as now I am seen as big Dramiel supporter. But ironically, I firmly believe in the need to nerf in both cases. I am simply against the drastic changes people call for when they are over reacting in anger. All the Nano-Nerf needed was a change in polycarbon rigs from 15% to 10% bonus. I want to nerf Dramiel by increasing its cost by 70 million. I believe that gently shifts balance in favor of other ships without destroying unique diversity of interplay between tactical PvP and economic PvP. Ships like Dramiel are what makes EVE exciting.
chrisss0r	Posted - 2010.03.25 19:45:00 - [90] No it's because if i wanted biggest Sword = Win i'd play wow. It's what i love about eve, spending lots of iskies on shiny endgame stuff does not entitle you to **. You can fly a 3bill faction fitted bs and then a cruiser gang comes along and rips you to shreds. being able to escape every time you want because you spent some iskies is just bull**

Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.03.25 19:50:00 - [91] Originally by: chrisss0r No it's because if i wanted biggest Sword = Win i'd play wow. It's what i love about eve, spending lots of iskies on shiny endgame stuff does not entitle you to **. You can fly a 3bill faction fitted bs and then a cruiser gang comes along and rips you to shreds. being able to escape every time you want because you spent some iskies is just bull Spot on. Having money to blow should not be a ticket to i-win. _________________________________ Originally by:** Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
Sovereign Enterprise The Hull Miners Union Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2010.03.25 19:52:00 - [92] Originally by: Gibbo3771 Paying 200mil for a frig + fit, its not overpowered....daredevil gets like 450 dps, dramiel gets like 180. Whoever said the dramiel gets same dps as an af, reli fails at fittng there af. Can get my ishkur uptoo 250dps and the enyo to 300. Only thing a dramiel has dfferent than a t2 frig is speed, so your paying n extra 100mil for the "gtfo" capability What the ** did you really just say that? Daredevil with FOUR mag stabs, 2 neutrons OVERHEATED still only gets 440 dps. 439 with 3 fed navy mag stabs, so don't be pulling the faction card either. Dramiel (by the same logic as the daredevil) gets 272 DPS with 200's, 3 gyros, and hobgoblins. Otherwise right around the 190 marker. Also you're comparing blasters to autocannons...blasters are supposed to do more damage. Now as for ishkur at 250 dps...5x hobs+ions (using neutrons on an ishkur just gimps your overall setup, and without tracking bonus you won't even hit a station with neutrons) gives you 246 overheated, so that's in line. Keep in mind that the ishkur is, again, using blasters...which have less tracking and less range, as well as no damage selection, compared to autocannons. The enyo. Did you really just make a comparison to AF dps and use the enyo? Needs 1 hob+4 ions+2 heat sinks to hit 300 dps. But again...it's the enyo. Who have you ever seen use an enyo to great success? Yeah no one. So in essence you compared the dps of a ty non-overheated dramiel to the dps of a ing failfit overheated daredevil of maximum gankage, then went and compared those 2 to the BLASTER AF's. No ** they have insane EFT dps. Compare them to the harpy, jag, wolf, or retribution. None of those is getting above 250, 175, 220, or 100 dps respectively, not if they actually want low slots that aren't damage mods. Not to mention, you're not paying 100 mil for the "GTFO ability." It stopped being a GTFO ability when a dramiel, using an AFTERBURNER, goes 20~30% slower than any AF with a MWD. To successfully lock a dramiel down, any AF would need 3 mid slots: Afterburner, scram, web. Well, you've just eliminated the enyo, wolf, and vengeance. You've also made the hawk/harpy/jag have absolutely no tank at all, so they still die to the dramiel. And the ishkur/retribution now do not have a MWD, so they die to anything that ISN'T a dramiel.
Seriously Bored Minmatar	Posted - 2010.03.25 20:10:00 - [93] Originally by: Ephemeron I want to nerf Dramiel by increasing its cost by 70 million. I believe that gently shifts balance in favor of other ships without destroying unique diversity of interplay between tactical PvP and economic PvP. Ships like Dramiel are what makes EVE exciting. I hate to say it, but games are always exciting when you're on the winning side. And I think that all balancing by price ensures is that the rich will always have the odds stacked heavily in their favor. This game is a massively complex version of rock-paper-scissors. I've been involved in enough of the balancing threads before patches to know that everything good needs a drawback, and if the only drawback you see is price, something needs to change. It sounds like the main issues of the Dramiel are: 1. You can't catch it. 2. If you catch it, it gets away with no trouble at all. 3. Whether you catch it or it catches you, odds are good it kills you. It sounds to me like nerfing its drone bay would keep the ship's flavor (very Vaga-like, leveraging speed and agility), but would reduce it's DPS dominance. The ship would still be fast and very hard to catch, but would have to think carefully before choosing a target. Much like the Vagabond that seems to have inspired the redesigned Angel ships. The other option, which really seems to just undo everything the last patch meant to do in the first place, would be to strip off a mid so that you have to choose between dual proping and tanking. (On a side note: If your only response to a balance concern is "Quit crying HTFU," odds are very good that you're going to get your toy ripped away from you...with no say in tempering the extremist view of someone who wants your ship nerfed into oblivion. I'm not accusing you of this Ephemeron, but it seems to be a prevalent reply in this thread.)
Gibbo3771	Posted - 2010.03.25 20:50:00 - [94] Everyones argument is valid in one or another, so instead of just *****ing about it, spend 12 days to train the races to 4 and t2 ac's.....cant beat them, join them. Thats exactly what I did and havent looked back. Enjoy the dramiel while its awsome, once its nerfed another frig will have the wtfpwn factor.
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.25 21:06:00 - [95] Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington Originally by: chrisss0r No it's because if i wanted biggest Sword = Win i'd play wow. It's what i love about eve, spending lots of iskies on shiny endgame stuff does not entitle you to **. You can fly a 3bill faction fitted bs and then a cruiser gang comes along and rips you to shreds. being able to escape every time you want because you spent some iskies is just bull** Spot on. Having money to blow should not be a ticket to i-win. Its nice to know then that an iteron V can beat up a 100 mil isk frigate
Cpt Branko Retired Pirate Club	Posted - 2010.03.25 21:20:00 - [96] Originally by: Gibbo3771 cant beat them, join them. Thats exactly what I did and havent looked back. Alternatively, fly what you like and just adjust your fit/tactics/etc to counter the new pwnmobile (if possible; it hardly is for poor AF pilots and such) until it gets nerfed or forgotten like all FOTM/FOTY things do. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Ephemeron Retribution Corp. Initiative Associates	Posted - 2010.03.25 21:23:00 - [97] The biggest enemy of balance is exaggerated reasoning, that often leads to over-nerf I have seen it happen again and again in EVE. This talk of "I-win button", "invulnerability", "impossible to kill", "the ONLY ship/module worth using" - they are just the last stages of people reinforcing each others misguided opinions to point of frenzy The stupidity wins by numbers. But then, why bother fighting for what right? if the lynch mob demands a body, maybe the sheriff should just give it to them, after all the people pay his salary.
Cpt Branko Retired Pirate Club	Posted - 2010.03.25 21:30:00 - [98] Originally by: Ephemeron The biggest enemy of balance is exaggerated reasoning, that often leads to over-nerf I have seen it happen again and again in EVE. This talk of "I-win button", "invulnerability", "impossible to kill", "the ONLY ship/module worth using" - they are just the last stages of people reinforcing each others misguided opinions to point of frenzy The stupidity wins by numbers. But then, why bother fighting for what right? if the lynch mob demands a body, maybe the sheriff should just give it to them, after all the people pay his salary. The only problem is the way CCP overdoes things instead of making more frequent changes in smaller steps. For instance, if the Dramiel is proven too good, then you start by, eg. chopping off a few drones rather then, say, moving a slot, reducing speed, reducing fitting and removing dronebay all in one go. Then again, gradual changes have problems too, since you get more whining by both anti-nerf/buff and pro-nerf/buff people. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.03.25 21:32:00 - [99] Exaggerated reasoning works the other way as well; in the form of the whines after said nerf has taken place. Take the nano nerf: vagas and cynabals are amazing, to say nothing of nano curses etc. The way people talked about them afterwards, you'd think those entire ship lines were for the scrap heap, but they're still flown very effectively: they just die more often now. Same for ECM, it's still good, just no 200km range Falcons to deal with. _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
Seriously Bored Minmatar	Posted - 2010.03.25 21:48:00 - [100] Originally by: Ephemeron The biggest enemy of balance is exaggerated reasoning, that often leads to over-nerf I have seen it happen again and again in EVE. This talk of "I-win button", "invulnerability", "impossible to kill", "the ONLY ship/module worth using" - they are just the last stages of people reinforcing each others misguided opinions to point of frenzy Right...but that's why people with a sensible grasp on the situation should be proposing sensible changes. If the only opinions on the subject are: "Stop crying, everything is fine," "it's going to get nerfed eventually, everyone hop on the bandwagon," or "nerf the everloving **** out of it" something extreme is likely to be the result. If the people who use and know the ship come up with a reasonable change for it, it's easier to drown out or sway the peons at the gates who are holding torches and pitchforks. I for one (though I don't fly it regularly, it's kind of a rare treat in my hangar) think the drone bay should be reduced. I'm not sure how much. But the ship would still fly the same way it does, just have to think more about who it fights.

Kail Storm Caldari Fear Th3 Vampires	Posted - 2010.03.26 08:16:00 - [101] Originally by: Gibbo3771 Everyones argument is valid in one or another, so instead of just ***ing about it, spend 12 days to train the races to 4 and t2 ac's.....cant beat them, join them. Thats exactly what I did and havent looked back. Enjoy the dramiel while its awsome, once its nerfed another frig will have the wtfpwn factor. -Translation...."Oh I posted DPS numbers that totally were bull** and favored my position, and someone actually tested the numbers and called me on it." "Errr.....All our points are valid in one way or another." No they are not your inflated numbers and terribad fits just shows how bad you tried to slant the issue. I have never seen so many guys want to hang on to there OP WTFPWN MOBILES so badly...Really what Merin says is perfectly logical and reasonable. I dont have a major stake one way or another, except in 1 year I dont want to be facing either A. Only pros in Drams and B.Only noobs in other frigs since they wont have skills or money`s. Say what you will but the trend is already going totally to Dram, Look at the Damned forums Postings there is a Post everyday asking for perfect Dram fittings and those are just the new guys who dont know how to use Eve Search. Each Class of ship will always have an overpowered Ship...This is ok and somewhat balanced. It is not ok when you start listing Classes and roles and listing 1 ship as the best, ROLES ARENT ATTRIBUTES. Tackler- Dram -Long Range Tackler-Speed means it can dictate range and makes it the Kiteomataic -Heavy Tackler- Dram since it has way more Hp`s than Inty and its dual prop AB speed makes it take 20 mins to kill it for those very few who can. Af/Brawler role -Close Range-Dram since Ab orbit speeds make it impossible for say Blaster ships to track it which are really the only ships that eclipse its DMG on paper, it will tear those ships up badly since according to my EFT a 1k m/s Scrammed and webbed Dram at 2km takes 30% Dmg from Blasters on Ishkur. -Mid-Dram since it has as much buffer as these ships usually except wolf which misses it often. So it uses its great Range to kill at 10kmish range and its so fast to boot it can disengage at will if the fight happens to go bad. -Long range-Dram can close range on Sniper`s at 50km-100km Very fast sometimes before they warp out, upclose they are gonners. Otherwise once more it disengages. Are you guys seeing a pattern? It kills Inty`s at there Jobs, Kills Af`s at there jobs, Kills or leaves against a ton of cruisers and BC`s since they can disengage and cant put DMG on target. If it was just king of Pirate frigsit would be fine, If it was a Great AF killer but Died to Intys it would be good, or certain T1 Frigs etc etc, But since its best at each role How is any ship in the Frig class supposed to keep up? Also to the guys posting Kills of the Drams so far all of them arent Dual prop or setup right at all, they are extreme fail fits...And still when they are killed they are a Trophy...Do you guys post the same about poorly lol fitted Ishkurs or T1 frigs ? -------------------------------------------------- "If Eve Was P*rn, It would be a Snuff film, First you get screwed then you get killed" -Me
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.26 09:11:00 - [102] Originally by: Kail Storm If it was just king of Pirate frigsit would be fine, If it was a Great AF killer but Died to Intys it would be good, or certain T1 Frigs etc etc, But since its best at each role How is any ship in the Frig class supposed to keep up? Also to the guys posting Kills of the Drams so far all of them arent Dual prop or setup right at all, they are extreme fail fits...And still when they are killed they are a Trophy...Do you guys post the same about poorly lol fitted Ishkurs or T1 frigs ? Difference between an ishkur and a dram is that the dram cost at least 70 million more and dies just as easily.
64ND4LF	Posted - 2010.03.26 09:32:00 - [103] Edited by: 64ND4LF on 26/03/2010 09:32:33 Originally by: baltec1 Originally by: Kail Storm If it was just king of Pirate frigsit would be fine, If it was a Great AF killer but Died to Intys it would be good, or certain T1 Frigs etc etc, But since its best at each role How is any ship in the Frig class supposed to keep up? Also to the guys posting Kills of the Drams so far all of them arent Dual prop or setup right at all, they are extreme fail fits...And still when they are killed they are a Trophy...Do you guys post the same about poorly lol fitted Ishkurs or T1 frigs ? Difference between an ishkur and a dram is that the dram cost at least 70 million more and dies just as easily. Your an idiot.
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.03.26 09:32:00 - [104] WORM - SUCCUBUS - WORM! - SUCCUBUS! - WORM! .. love urgently needed! Originally by: baltec1 Difference between an ishkur and a dram is that the dram cost at least 70 million more and dies just as easily. But you need to mention that it requires twice as many slots to 'hold' a Dramiel down than an Ishkur. Once that little fact is included the number of ships that is able to do what you so carelessly stated, without using gimmick fits, drops to just a handful or less .. 70M (actually 50M but that's nitpicking) buys 99% immunity at present, best damn deal available. I must say the previously posed challenge is a pretty damn good one: *Justify using any other light ship if you have ISK for a Dramiel.* Pure genius
Vladimir Norkoff Income Redistribution Service	Posted - 2010.03.26 09:37:00 - [105] Originally by: baltec1 Difference between an ishkur and a dram is that the dram cost at least 70 million more and dies just as easily... when flown by a complete idiot who doesn't know how to use the speed, range, ammo, and tank to his advantage Fixed that for ya baltec. Taxman IX: Risky Venture
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.26 09:40:00 - [106] Originally by: 64ND4LF Edited by: 64ND4LF on 26/03/2010 09:32:33 Originally by: baltec1 Originally by: Kail Storm If it was just king of Pirate frigsit would be fine, If it was a Great AF killer but Died to Intys it would be good, or certain T1 Frigs etc etc, But since its best at each role How is any ship in the Frig class supposed to keep up? Also to the guys posting Kills of the Drams so far all of them arent Dual prop or setup right at all, they are extreme fail fits...And still when they are killed they are a Trophy...Do you guys post the same about poorly lol fitted Ishkurs or T1 frigs ? Difference between an ishkur and a dram is that the dram cost at least 70 million more and dies just as easily. Your an idiot. This idiot came very close to killing one in a damn hauler.
Smabs	Posted - 2010.03.26 10:23:00 - [107] A dramiel has capless guns and drones, so it still fires at a sentinel or its drones. Also a lot of them fit a nos.
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.26 10:28:00 - [108] Originally by: Smabs A dramiel has capless guns and drones, so it still fires at a sentinel or its drones. Also a lot of them fit a nos. Guns that wont reach you or that can track drones effectivly due to the tracking disrupter (both scrips would be needed in this fight) and a nos that does not have enough range to reach the sentinel.
Smabs	Posted - 2010.03.26 10:33:00 - [109] You'd be hoping that the dramiel doesn't get in range of you for any period of time (which is extremely difficult) or that paper thin sentinel is dead. And it can set its drones on yours, negating your dps. Yes, it's technically possible to beat a dramiel with a sentinel, but very difficult.
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.03.26 10:34:00 - [110] Originally by: baltec1 Sentinel. Because a capped out dramiel is just an expensive lump of iron. Not as a counter to the Dramiel, you silly . Rephrase: If you were to take a light ship out for a romp and can choose any ship, barring the limited editions, how would you justify not taking the Dramiel? I have thought long and hard about the Sentinel as counter as well but don't see it happening. Neuts are <20km, scram/pain is <10km .. that 10km is covered in 2 overheated seconds even if Sentinel burns directly away, you need two neut cycles to cap it out which also kills your own cap. It might be possible using TD, but then you have no tank and will probably die to the drones .. whole scenario is based on too much theory for me to decide if its possible and I am sure as hell not going to feed a bunch of T2 frigs to random Dramiels to find out

64ND4LF	Posted - 2010.03.26 10:35:00 - [111] Originally by: baltec1 Originally by: Smabs A dramiel has capless guns and drones, so it still fires at a sentinel or its drones. Also a lot of them fit a nos. Guns that wont reach you or that can track drones effectivly due to the tracking disrupter (both scrips would be needed in this fight) and a nos that does not have enough range to reach the sentinel. Motsu
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.26 10:43:00 - [112] Originally by: Smabs You'd be hoping that the dramiel doesn't get in range of you for any period of time (which is extremely difficult) or that paper thin sentinel is dead. And it can set its drones on yours, negating your dps. Yes, it's technically possible to beat a dramiel with a sentinel, but very difficult. Not if your any good with a sentinel. Quite honestly I dont know why more people dont fly it, it a great ship.
Smabs	Posted - 2010.03.26 10:46:00 - [113] Quote: Not if your any good with a sentinel. Quite honestly I dont know why more people dont fly it, it a great ship Yeah, it's a good ship. Ever killed a dramiel with it, or know someone who has?
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.26 10:48:00 - [114] Edited by: baltec1 on 26/03/2010 10:51:26 Originally by: 64ND4LF Originally by: baltec1 Originally by: Smabs A dramiel has capless guns and drones, so it still fires at a sentinel or its drones. Also a lot of them fit a nos. Guns that wont reach you or that can track drones effectivly due to the tracking disrupter (both scrips would be needed in this fight) and a nos that does not have enough range to reach the sentinel. Motsu I agree you should stay there and not pvp if a hauler can do what you cannot Originally by: Smabs Quote: Not if your any good with a sentinel. Quite honestly I dont know why more people dont fly it, it a great ship Yeah, it's a good ship. Ever killed a dramiel with it, or know someone who has? tested it on sisi and its a 50/50 chance if both pilot are good. Retribution wins 100% of the time but the lack of a point means no kill unfortunatly. Vengence is iffy, if rockets worked it would probably win most of the time too.
Smabs	Posted - 2010.03.26 10:51:00 - [115] Edited by: Smabs on 26/03/2010 10:52:12 You ought to go on TQ and kill them, then. God knows there's enough of the things flying around. edit: failing to make their ship explode doesn't really count as 'winning'.
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.26 10:54:00 - [116] Originally by: Smabs Edited by: Smabs on 26/03/2010 10:52:12 You ought to go on TQ and kill them, then. God knows there's enough of the things flying around. edit: failing to make their ship explode doesn't really count as 'winning'. yea but theres always the chance of panic setting in and getting the kill
Smabs	Posted - 2010.03.26 11:01:00 - [117] Anything can happen, I guess... By the way if a dramiel orbits close to anything without a web they can't track it, save for maybe bonused AC's and small pulse lasers. Rocket damage gets degraded horribly against something going as fast as a dramiel with its tiny sig radius.
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.26 11:12:00 - [118] Originally by: Smabs Anything can happen, I guess... By the way if a dramiel orbits close to anything without a web they can't track it, save for maybe bonused AC's and small pulse lasers. Rocket damage gets degraded horribly against something going as fast as a dramiel with its tiny sig radius. Rocket damage is horrible vs anything. Even with a scram fitted I would get more DPS by grabbing a spacesuit and whacking the target with a hammer...
Kusariqqu Gallente M. Corp Daisho Syndicate	Posted - 2010.03.26 11:51:00 - [119] I really love theses posts, they've been going since the start of eve and its hilarious. Whine whine whine there's a ship that's better than mine i cant afford it, dont have the sp to fly it right or cant think of anything i have that can kill it so the only solution is to nerf bat it. Nothing is broken the dramiel is a great ship, i cant fly one nore do i own one or have any interest in getting one. So here a solution get some friends if u have any and spring a trap, rapiers huggins anything with good web and pop!
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.03.26 12:05:00 - [120] Originally by: Kusariqqu So here a solution get some friends if u have any and spring a trap, rapiers huggins anything with good web and pop! So your idea is to throw several hundred million and superior numbers at it? Do you want to try to apply that kind of balancing logic to the rest of Eve or should I? .. tsk, tsk. PS: I have all relevant skills maxed and can buy every last one currently on contracts without making a dent in my ISK reserve Why do I mention it I hear you ask; because it has absolutely nothing to do with discussing balance of any ship whatsoever. So, about that Worm and Suxcubus ....

Aerilis Gallente Quantum Cats Syndicate	Posted - 2010.03.26 12:39:00 - [121] ITT: Dramiel pilots flame valid points on why the Dramiel is OP. Also internet tough guys thinking they're cool because they can say HTFU like all the cool kids do these days. ------------------------------ [WTS] Dominix Navy Issues - 500M
Sunset Rogue	Posted - 2010.03.26 12:46:00 - [122] I don't want the Dramiel to be overnerfed (like ccp are so fond of doing) but there is no question that it needs a serious toning down. I mean look at it Quote: Dramiel has: * The buffer tank of an AF. * More speed than interceptors. * More speed than many non-interceptor MWD frigates even when it only uses its AB. * The dps of an AF. * A drone bay larger than all but the Worm and Ishkur. * A 4th mid for dualprop fits. * Utility highslot. That's just absurd.
Andracin Minmatar Ever Flow Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.26 12:52:00 - [123] The thing I like the most about these "OMFG this ship is overpowered" posts is alot of idiots suddenly decided they have to get one of these shiny pwn all ships...and I can get lots of LOL kills when they have no idea what to do with it. Ive met maybe a dozen dram pilots that know what they are doing and about 5x that who dont have a cold clue in hell.
Seriously Bored Minmatar	Posted - 2010.03.26 12:53:00 - [124] Edited by: Seriously Bored on 26/03/2010 12:53:45 Originally by: Sunset Rogue * The dps of an AF. * A drone bay larger than all but the Worm and Ishkur. Let's fix these two at the same time. The rest will be fine.
Proxyyyy Caldari The Tuskers	Posted - 2010.03.26 13:00:00 - [125] Originally by: Ephemeron The biggest enemy of balance is exaggerated reasoning, that often leads to over-nerf I have seen it happen again and again in EVE. This talk of "I-win button", "invulnerability", "impossible to kill", "the ONLY ship/module worth using" - they are just the last stages of people reinforcing each others misguided opinions to point of frenzy The stupidity wins by numbers. But then, why bother fighting for what right? if the lynch mob demands a body, maybe the sheriff should just give it to them, after all the people pay his salary. This is very true^ I have seen it to many times. Its never ending. Once one thing is "Quote Fixed" something that wasnt broken before takes its place. Its something you mostly tend to see in todays capital markets (euphoria). Discourse often takes a life of its own and is exaggerated to the point of "general belief" , "Common knowlegde" that become that way by pilots who know so much about ships they dont fly. When you look at actual changes made by ccp to pvp. The biggest was done to scorch and the nano nerf. The changes themselves were small but its impact large. What changed wasnt the ships or the weapon systems to a large extent, but was a natural improving and changing of "Common Fits". The way players fit there ships have been invovling quicker than the "changes", done by ccp. You can see this when it comes to blasters. The new way of thinking about engagements in a game where pilots quickly group into large numbers is now directed towards range, speed and then damage. In the past not to long ago when blasters was king of pvp still (like a year ago). The focus was in your face damage! Projectiles was still out preforming blasters but on the forums it was broken! Blasters was considered and argued to be better even though things that minmatar are able to do now they could do before. The general thinking of the time was blasters could out damage another weapon system (Projectiles) that required you to travel into range and in those ranges blasters superior damage was king. This is still the case. Only the new way of fitting the cane and maybe even the rupture has realy changed. Every other fit or tactics used by other minmatar ships are still the same. Tracking Enhancers spawned the nano cane and even increased the range of battle ships like the maelstrom to almost shadow the range of the abaddon. (Mind you the nano harbinger and hurricane was around before the changes to TE btw). So what has changed? The = is nothing! The way pilots fit there ships was already changing and the focus ever shifting to the new way of seening pvp. The perception in the forums that i try to avoid. What i call forum "Hype" the constent bu11sh!t by those who want pvp on easy mode. "Perception" Is what changes faster than any changes made by ccp. That is why long ago i started concentrating on optimizing of the fits themselves rather than cry to ccp to nerf or boost things so its easy to fit and fly.
Proxyyyy Caldari The Tuskers	Posted - 2010.03.26 13:11:00 - [126] The worm is not broken, just figure out a way to fit and fly it properly. How you make judgments of what is good or broken is often comparative, and if thats the case then many ships are broken (if its not hte best in class). If all the worm is suppose to be is a faction frigate that tanks, then its the best at it! Many pilots fly around in ships with large tanks and love it = /
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2010.03.26 13:19:00 - [127] The Worm is broken.
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.03.26 13:45:00 - [128] Originally by: Proxyyyy The worm is not broken, just figure out a way to fit and fly it properly. How you make judgments of what is good or broken is often comparative, and if thats the case then many ships are broken (if its not hte best in class). If all the worm is suppose to be is a faction frigate that tanks, then its the best at it! Many pilots fly around in ships with large tanks and love it = / It can certainly field an impressive tank, but is that one fit/ability really enough to justify it taking up a pirate frigate slot? If so then we might as well remove slots/fittings and increase attributes so that the "fit" is built-in It is rammed so deep into its pigeon hole that you can barely make it out. With a proper drone bonus and perhaps a fitting tweak to avoid insane scenarios, it gains far more options when it comes to fittings (even if the kiting lol-drones! fit will be the most used). It is not broken per se, but could really do with a make-over/tweak .. same with the Suxcubus.
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2010.03.27 03:16:00 - [129] Edited by: Omara Otawan on 27/03/2010 03:20:03 Having finally bought one myself (a Dramiel) and given it a try, I cant say I'm too impressed. Sure its a good ship, as you'd expect, but its nowhere near people make it out to be on the forums. Some clarifications if you havent tried it yourself yet: - tank is not that great as people claim, while it is strong on exp/kin, against a competent rifter / punisher pilot you'll find it folds pretty fast. properly fit AFs always will have a better tank, and I can get my claw to tank almost as well for that matter. - dual-prop fit doesnt equal disengaging all the time, and it doesnt work at all once you are fighting 2 frigates (like 3mill rifters), it depends on the fitting of the other guy if it works or not - drones are actually a weakness imo, again a competent rifter pilot deals with those in a matter of seconds, and then a huge chunk of your dps is gone - there is no way you are winning against a properly flown thrasher. you might escape though, but you arent gonna win. Now, what I really liked about the dual-prop fitting, it actually isnt an instant death sentence tackling a cruiser or above that is web/scram fitted, so it makes for an excellent heavy tackler. Anyway, once you know about the weaknesses and how to beat its primary trick, its not that scary anymore but more of an annoyance like everything that can choose its fights (which if we are honest, pretty much every frigate, interceptor and AF can). As far as balancing goes, I'd like to see price adjustments for t2 frigates, like a 25% drop in production costs for AFs and interceptors (these are too expensive anyway).
Proxyyyy Caldari The Tuskers	Posted - 2010.03.27 06:44:00 - [130] Pretty much what was said above is some-what correct. the tank is overrated (well atleast the shield extender it self) ,its real tank lies in its speed and range mostly. The dps is not overated and mirrors the damage of the wolf. Once you are able to catch it and hold it, most of the best af's can take it out! The coecer with gats or lights can force it off grid every time. The thrasher can indeed **** it if it gets caught! The claw can last awhile against the drameil and do alot of damage but will die to it sooner or later ,but ive forced 2 drams off in my claw. The drameil is kool and is no doubt very strong. But over powered? Naw its just right for the price and the preformance you get. Im fine with it where it is and also the daredevil which i think has alot of damage. As far as the other faction ships are concerned, they have there place. Also whats wrong with the succubus?

Ancy Denaries	Posted - 2010.03.27 07:41:00 - [131] Originally by: Proxyyyy Also whats wrong with the succubus? Take a week and fly one. It lacks the punch to fit into the "gank" mentality of the Sanshas, it lacks the speed to catch anything, it lacks the agility to keep up with anything and it lacks the range to hit anything it can't catch. Fixing either of these would help a lot. ---- The Demigodess with a Conscience - An EVE IC Blog Originally by: CCP Dropbear rofl edit: ah crap, dev account. Oh well, official rofl at you sir.
praznimrak Gallente Level Up	Posted - 2010.03.27 08:25:00 - [132] Hi all,short story in here... Did scan down dramiel and manticor doing FW mision,and decidid to warp in in piligrim to cose some pain.Once in mision,stuff did look wierd and i didnt feel that im in right ship to do anything.My question was:how do i hurt a ship that gose 6.3K/s tanking all mision spawn whithout scratch and what can i do to kill SB moving fast and nailing down mision objectivs.Well i decidid at least to kick out sb from mision,and try to cacth him once he reinters.So i declocak and lock sb down ,deployd dronse and hes out of mision.And than it hapends....dram did point me. So i send my warriors t2 on him and im skilled pilot of dronse ships whith nice skills,and lets say that dronse did look sily chaising down that dram,and for my surprise he was dealing me nice dmg whith his dronse and his GUNS orbiting me on 18Km distance.It was slow pain but costant.After i killed his dronse i coud not get rid of his point,so i mowed more into npc group hoping hes gona bump onto somthing or that maybe npcis will help a bit.But there was no problem for him,perma mwd and still hiting me,so afetr while i did observe him i did realize he neads to drop spead to 4K/s to actualy hit me,but still wtf that was too much. So i did wait once more that he drop spead a bit and deploy dronse,and for my surprise i did take all his shield down,but he was fast inuff in incrising his spead and leaving my dronse behing,still keeping me pointid.After like 20 min of reciving constant dmg from dram and chasisng out manticore from mission i strat to conside is there any ship in my hangar full of toys that i could bring to kill that dram,cose a recon ship was usless. And i did realize that no inty,destroyer,cruiser or biger could do a thing,and if i actuali had something dram will probably just bail out do to his spead superioriti. Point of all this is that frigat whit dronse bay,insain spead,great fall off,awsom dps,and buffer tank just erase all other frigate hull form game making tham usles. Sory for my bad english i will never improve. Praz.
Lilith Velkor Minmatar Final Agony B A N E	Posted - 2010.03.27 08:32:00 - [133] Originally by: praznimrak Hi all,short story in here... So after his drones were dead, you did for some reason not decide to put your tracking disruptor on him and reduce his dps to nothing? Sounds weird, but then again you did for some reason decide to not pop your ecm drones and just warp out. Oh wait, you didnt have these things? Well, you came unprepared then.
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.03.27 08:40:00 - [134] Edited by: Hirana Yoshida on 27/03/2010 08:41:42 Originally by: Omara Otawan Having finally bought one myself (a Dramiel) and given it a try, I cant say I'm too impressed. Sure its a good ship, as you'd expect, but its nowhere near people make it out to be on the forums. Did you lose it? If so how many fights did you engage in, against what targets and how many were "draws" (ie. evading)? - Rifter/Punisher/Slicer will die long before Dramiel is even in danger so you must have been doing it wrong - Even without drones you still have more speed/agility, more tank, equal damage to a Rifter so shouldn't be a problem. By the time he is done with the drones you have him in deep hull. - Trashers die anything with experience in dealing with them. Been doing it in FW using Crucifiers, Punishers, Slicers, Inquisitors since day one .. only a threat when more than one. - Dual-prop is awesome. Any ship with slots to spare benefit from it in most scenarios (try a dual-prop Sacrilege .. a lot more effective than one might think). And just what is the "primary trick"? If you are referring to the drones then how about the AF size capacitor, tank and damage? The interceptor speed+, lock range and lock speed? The ridiculously easy fittings? The price compared to Daredevils? Buy it and use bog standard T2 fittings, it will still be better than everything out there. Pimpage just adds a screw-up buffer, same as the nano-ships of old. Originally by: Ancy Denaries Fixing either of these would help a lot. Bang on. It missed the pirate buff train entirely and is suffering from blisters trying to catch up to it
praznimrak Gallente Level Up	Posted - 2010.03.27 11:24:00 - [135] Originally by: Lilith Velkor Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 27/03/2010 08:50:59 Originally by: praznimrak Hi all,short story in here... So after his drones were dead, you did for some reason not decide to put your tracking disruptor on him and reduce his dps to nothing? Sounds weird, but then again you did for some reason decide to not pop your ecm drones and just warp out. Oh wait, you didnt have these things? Well, you came unprepared then. Its not invulnerable btw. Coud be but the point is that i nead to escape from a frig in my recon and thats is not comon situcaion.I woud not discuse much my recon fit,cose it did serve me well.Point was that dram is bit out of line ship and it looks like me that only other ship to engage this guy was dram too,but than again he coud easly desingage and leave....
Ancy Denaries	Posted - 2010.03.27 13:10:00 - [136] I feel your pain mate. I couldn't do jack against the Dram, and when the Curse showed up, I knew it was all over. ---- The Demigodess with a Conscience - An EVE IC Blog Originally by: CCP Dropbear rofl edit: ah crap, dev account. Oh well, official rofl at you sir.
Vladimir Norkoff Income Redistribution Service	Posted - 2010.03.27 19:06:00 - [137] Originally by: Lilith Velkor Its not invulnerable btw. Why is it that whenever somebody says drams are not op and start waving a killmail, it's always with a cruiser+ doing the killing? Doesn't anybody have solo frig kills vs a dram? Or should we use that as the new balance? "You cannot kill anything without a ship of a larger class or massive blobbage." That would make for alot of fun.... EvE is supposed to be a game of paper, rocks, scissors. Unfortunately for frigs, the Dram is the paper, the rock, and the scissors all at once. Taxman IX: Risky Venture
Ephemeron Retribution Corp. Initiative Associates	Posted - 2010.03.27 20:41:00 - [138] Edited by: Ephemeron on 27/03/2010 20:41:33 Originally by: Vladimir Norkoff Originally by: Lilith Velkor Its not invulnerable btw. Why is it that whenever somebody says drams are not op and start waving a killmail, it's always with a cruiser+ doing the killing? Doesn't anybody have solo frig kills vs a dram? Or should we use that as the new balance? "You cannot kill anything without a ship of a larger class or massive blobbage." That would make for alot of fun.... EvE is supposed to be a game of paper, rocks, scissors. Unfortunately for frigs, the Dram is the paper, the rock, and the scissors all at once. Why do the less gifted amongst us keep ignoring the economics part of EVE? you know, the cost of things, it's a pretty big part of this game That killmail shows that 15~ mil worth of 2 ships have defeated 80 mil ship. As far as economic PvP goes, they achieved significant victory. I'm sure 15 mil worth of rifters could also take down that 80 mil Dram. Unless you play on test server where losses don't matter, you have no right to compare ship power without taking its true cost into account. Dram is indeed powerful, but instead of nerfing its performance, just nerf it's cost by additional 70 mil.
Stuart Price Caldari The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2010.03.27 20:51:00 - [139] Originally by: Ephemeron Why do the less gifted amongst us keep ignoring the economics part of EVE? you know, the cost of things, it's a pretty big part of this game...instead of nerfing its performance, just nerf it's cost by additional 70 mil. Because: 1. Cost != performance 2. How are CCP going to raise the price by 70mil? Are they posting ALL the Dram contracts themselves now? Oh hang on no, the players are, according to supply and demand. You know, the free market economy? Economics? If it's cheap it's because more people are farming them to sell, driving supply up and lowering the overall price. Would you also accept paying 140mil for a Succubus or a Worm? Why not? Is it because they aren't as good? So how do you balance according to something that is neither relevant to comparative performance (certainly against other ships of its class) nor under your control? Also, yeah, you could buy a lot of Rifters for the cost of a Dramiel. Could you also buy the pilots to fly those Rifters? If not, you're stuck flying them one by one. Reckon you could kill a Dramiel on one of those occassions? Putting the 'irate' into 'Pirate'
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2010.03.27 20:57:00 - [140] Originally by: Ephemeron Dram is indeed powerful, but instead of nerfing its performance, just nerf it's cost by additional 70 mil. Stop trolling, you're not this ******ed. Ships need to be balanced within a class, and ISK plays no part in balance.

Omara Otawan	Posted - 2010.03.27 21:29:00 - [141] Edited by: Omara Otawan on 27/03/2010 21:32:04 Originally by: Stuart Price Also, yeah, you could buy a lot of Rifters for the cost of a Dramiel. Could you also buy the pilots to fly those Rifters? If not, you're stuck flying them one by one. Reckon you could kill a Dramiel on one of those occassions? If you are really thinking a rifter should have a chance 1v1 you are delusional. Eve is not a duelling game, so balancing around 1v1 situations is hilariously stupid. You can kill it in an AF solo, or another pirate frig. You can 'blob' it with a buddy in 2 rifters. That will have to suffice I'm afraid.
Stuart Price Caldari The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2010.03.27 22:13:00 - [142] Originally by: Omara Otawan Edited by: Omara Otawan on 27/03/2010 21:38:47 Originally by: Stuart Price Also, yeah, you could buy a lot of Rifters for the cost of a Dramiel. Could you also buy the pilots to fly those Rifters? If not, you're stuck flying them one by one. Reckon you could kill a Dramiel on one of those occassions? If you are really thinking a rifter should have a chance 1v1 you are delusional. Eve is not a duelling game, so balancing around 1v1 situations is hilariously stupid. Look at how balanced claw vs any other combat inty is for example. Nerf claw? You can kill it in an AF solo, or another pirate frig. You can 'blob' it with a buddy in 2 rifters. That will have to suffice I'm afraid. Clearly missed the sarcasm. Also, Claw IS pretty balanced against 'sader and 'ranis and no, an AF won't kill a competent Dramiel pilot. Putting the 'irate' into 'Pirate'
masternerdguy Gallente Caldari Naval Reserve	Posted - 2010.03.27 22:13:00 - [143] Originally by: Omara Otawan Edited by: Omara Otawan on 27/03/2010 21:38:47 Originally by: Stuart Price Also, yeah, you could buy a lot of Rifters for the cost of a Dramiel. Could you also buy the pilots to fly those Rifters? If not, you're stuck flying them one by one. Reckon you could kill a Dramiel on one of those occassions? If you are really thinking a rifter should have a chance 1v1 you are delusional. Eve is not a duelling game, so balancing around 1v1 situations is hilariously stupid. Look at how balanced claw vs any other combat inty is for example. Nerf claw? You can kill it in an AF solo, or another pirate frig. You can 'blob' it with a buddy in 2 rifters. That will have to suffice I'm afraid. the issue is that even 4 intys can be beaten by a dramiel, I can find that KM somewhere where an inty killed all 4 of our intys and got out with half armor. It's faster than an inty, more dps, etc. AND RAISING PRICE WONT DO ANYTHING
Ephemeron Retribution Corp. Initiative Associates	Posted - 2010.03.27 22:18:00 - [144] Ok, if you keep insisting that money in EVE doesn't matter, how to you justify the existence of faction ships and faction modules? All Navy batteships have more hp and extra slot, they are pretty much better than their non-navy counterparts in every way. They violate game balance! What about officer cap rechargers, officer PDS, officer guns/launchers, officer shield boosters and armor reps? they are so overpowered compared to t2 counterparts it's impossible not to notice. Why do silly people insist on using t2 armor reps in PvP if the factions ones are clearly so much better in every way? why doesn't every shield tanker fit Estamel's Invulnerability field that gives 50% resists to all when it's so much better than T2 invulnerability that gives only 30%? How can you pretend to be outraged over Dramiel's power if you are blind to gross imbalance of all other faction modules and ships? EVE if not counter strike in space, it does not follow the logic of RTS game balance. EVE has economics, and until you get that thru your thick skulls, you will always get it wrong.
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2010.03.27 22:28:00 - [145] Edited by: Omara Otawan on 27/03/2010 22:28:39 Originally by: masternerdguy the issue is that even 4 intys can be beaten by a dramiel, I can find that KM somewhere where an inty killed all 4 of our intys and got out with half armor. Bolded the important part. Your inty pilots are complete tools, and the guy that killed them was probably half competent. So we established that idiots get beaten by smart people. Also, your freudian slip (inty for dramiel) is very interesting, I suppose you realize many people have pulled off a 4v1 in regular combat inties and came out on top?
Ephemeron Retribution Corp. Initiative Associates	Posted - 2010.03.27 22:28:00 - [146] Originally by: masternerdguy the issue is that even 4 intys can be beaten by a dramiel, I can find that KM somewhere where an inty killed all 4 of our intys and got out with half armor. It's faster than an inty, more dps, etc. AND RAISING PRICE WONT DO ANYTHING Sounds like a case of 4 noobs vs a pro. If they weren't fitted to handle a Dram they shouldn't have engaged, and even a Dram can't tackle another inty if that inty chooses to run. I also seen killmail where a rifter kills a Raven, does it mean all rifters are overpowered?
Aerilis Gallente Quantum Cats Syndicate	Posted - 2010.03.27 22:42:00 - [147] Originally by: Ephemeron Ok, if you keep insisting that money in EVE doesn't matter, how to you justify the existence of faction ships and faction modules? All Navy batteships have more hp and extra slot, they are pretty much better than their non-navy counterparts in every way. They violate game balance! What about officer cap rechargers, officer PDS, officer guns/launchers, officer shield boosters and armor reps? they are so overpowered compared to t2 counterparts it's impossible not to notice. Why do silly people insist on using t2 armor reps in PvP if the factions ones are clearly so much better in every way? why doesn't every shield tanker fit Estamel's Invulnerability field that gives 50% resists to all when it's so much better than T2 invulnerability that gives only 30%? How can you pretend to be outraged over Dramiel's power if you are blind to gross imbalance of all other faction modules and ships? EVE if not counter strike in space, it does not follow the logic of RTS game balance. EVE has economics, and until you get that thru your thick skulls, you will always get it wrong. Pull your head out of your ass. You can blow billions on a faction/officer whatever battleship, and it'll still be taken down by 2 similar plain vanilla T2 fit battleships. Or you can get a Dramiel and kite every ship in the game. ------------------------------ [WTS] Dominix Navy Issues - 500M
Stuart Price Caldari The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2010.03.27 23:29:00 - [148] Originally by: Ephemeron Ok, if you keep insisting that money in EVE doesn't matter, how to you justify the existence of faction ships and faction modules? All Navy batteships have more hp and extra slot, they are pretty much better than their non-navy counterparts in every way. They violate game balance! What about officer cap rechargers, officer PDS, officer guns/launchers, officer shield boosters and armor reps? they are so overpowered compared to t2 counterparts it's impossible not to notice. Why do silly people insist on using t2 armor reps in PvP if the factions ones are clearly so much better in every way? why doesn't every shield tanker fit Estamel's Invulnerability field that gives 50% resists to all when it's so much better than T2 invulnerability that gives only 30%? How can you pretend to be outraged over Dramiel's power if you are blind to gross imbalance of all other faction modules and ships? EVE if not counter strike in space, it does not follow the logic of RTS game balance. EVE has economics, and until you get that thru your thick skulls, you will always get it wrong. SUPPLY AND DEMAND. Are you being deliberately thick or are you actually ******ed? Putting the 'irate' into 'Pirate'
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2010.03.28 01:03:00 - [149] Originally by: Aerilis Pull your head out of your ass. You can blow billions on a faction/officer whatever battleship, and it'll still be taken down by 2 similar plain vanilla T2 fit battleships. You can blow billions on a faction/officer whatever dramiel, and it'll still be taken down by 2 similar plain vanilla t2 fit rifters. See what I did there?
Ephemeron Retribution Corp. Initiative Associates	Posted - 2010.03.28 02:47:00 - [150] Originally by: Stuart Price SUPPLY AND DEMAND. Are you being deliberately thick or are you actually ******ed? You are the one ignoring this simple concept, why don't you teach it to the rest of this ignorant crowd if you are so smart. Explain to them how much Dramiel costs. And explain how it could be balanced more by increasing the costs.

Proxyyyy Caldari The Tuskers	Posted - 2010.03.28 03:22:00 - [151] "competent pilot" is said to much! In a optimal situation in low sec, With both a drameil pilot and ishkur/jaguar/Harpy pilot engaging under 10k. With the af pilot fitting ab's like most do and the drameil pilot fitting forum popular duel prop or the not so forum popular mwd kiting setup which you mostly see on tranq. The af's better tank more damage and combination of overheating its afterburner with web/scram will indeed beat the drameil everytime. unless he doesnt engage at all which would be wise. Of course this is in optimal situation where no one makes a mistake and are forced to engage each other. The drameil fits that are ungodly (Which is what i called my ab/dramiel). Are better than the duel/prop or mwd versions under 10k. Infact no frigate/destroyer in-game bar the Daredevil/curor stands a chance against said fit. Many of the best pilots i know in-game who have flown the drameil and have attacked many things with them, sometimes successful, sometimes not. They know not to engage certain ships and possible setups, because the drameil has weakneses that can be exploited based on theyre current fit. Most of them flying the forum fav the duel-prop/drameil. Once you start naming off ships that are capable of beating a non ab/web/scram drameil. They dont seem so impressive. Honestly; that's why i have no issue with the dramel. As long as im aware of the love and push for duel prop drameils and are seeing alot of mwding kiting drams i will continue to engage them with my af's or thrasher. I believe their are 2 fits for the drameil and 2 destinct roles it can play in-game. Mind you! There is no fit that enables it to fill both roles effectively. Interceptor - Imo The duel prop and mwding drameils is far better than any interceptor ingame. Assault ship - When fit with a ab/web/scram you can fit the dram with more range damage and tank. its abiltiy under scram range is not matched. With all that being said, you have to choose which setup you want. By going duel-prop or mwd, your filling the tackling role or trying to gain the abiltiy to effectively engage a samll minority of the frigate class (Interceptors). With the ab fit, you dominate the majority of the frigate class and are still able to fill the tackling role. Tbh The only frigate i believe can play both roles effectively is the daredevil = / Ive been touched up by that thing a few times in a af and honestly the damage is insane! If it can do that to 2 of the most tanky af's before they can even come close to getting it past 70% amor something is off. Ive recently been also conviced that the rail version is also the best version to fly. In anycase their has to be a number 1 ship and a number 2. There are things that are better than others and that will always be the case no matter how much people b!tch... As for the worm it has a role and after being chased off by a coecer in my drameil. then coming back to fight that same coecer with my worm and beating him. I was convinced! After losing my worm to sentries because of a game glitch and ccp did nothing even after submiting a link to the fraps. I sold my drameil and other pirate faction frigs because i do to many risky things and i cant afford to keep up with the losses. So figure out the many roles you want your ship to play (if it can) and fit it appropriately!
Aerilis Gallente Quantum Cats Syndicate	Posted - 2010.03.28 03:30:00 - [152] Edited by: Aerilis on 28/03/2010 03:36:29 Originally by: Ephemeron Originally by: Stuart Price SUPPLY AND DEMAND. Are you being deliberately thick or are you actually ******ed? You are the one ignoring this simple concept, why don't you teach it to the rest of this ignorant crowd if you are so smart. Explain to them how much Dramiel costs. And explain how it could be balanced more by increasing the costs. Dramiels aren't a scarce resource, normal supply and demand doesn't apply. Price needs to be artificially propped up if you want it to more accurately reflect equilibrium price. l2econ ------------------------------ [WTS] Dominix Navy Issues - 500M
Desudes	Posted - 2010.03.28 11:44:00 - [153] I just want to know why a faction frig can get into minor FW plexes but af/cepter can't.
mikeh24 Harbingers of Chaos Inc. Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2010.03.28 17:18:00 - [154] Confirming op is a pro troll
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2010.03.28 20:10:00 - [155] Originally by: mikeh24 Confirming op is a pro troll Yep confirmations from noobs is always welcome. So are you saying that dramiel is balanced vs the worm? :O
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2010.03.28 22:25:00 - [156] Edited by: Omara Otawan on 28/03/2010 22:25:38 Originally by: Naomi Knight So are you saying that dramiel is balanced vs the worm? :O Since when is the performancee of the worm the measure of all things again? Get a grip, the worm has 2 wasted bonuses, one of its main weapon systems is broken beyond belief, and it overall lacks a clear design concept. If frigate performance was measured against it, you'd have to nerf some t1 frigates
chatgris Quantum Cats Syndicate	Posted - 2010.03.28 22:36:00 - [157] Originally by: Proxyyyy "competent pilot" is said to much! In a optimal situation in low sec, With both a drameil pilot and ishkur/jaguar/Harpy pilot engaging under 10k. Any dram pilot that gets in web/medium neut range in the first place is NOT a competent dram pilot.
Bomberlocks Minmatar Star Bombers	Posted - 2010.03.28 23:25:00 - [158] The whole Dramiel story seems a bit on the ridiculous side. I suppose the proliferation of Dramiels in local is a testament to just how good it is, but it isn't invincible, just very hard to get to a point where you can actually hit it for long enough to destroy it. The thing is that it does seem a bit OP compared to other frigates, but whether this is bad or good, I don't know. I suppose the endgame is everybody who can will fly a Dramiel and those can't will have to make use of numbers to compensate. If there is going to be a nerf to the Dram, the best thing to nerf would possibly be the drones. Three drones in a ship that is already quite a bit better than a Taranis seems a bit much. Leaving everything else as it is, a Dram with only 1 drone would be a bit less potent, but still very, very good. On the other hand, given how expensive the Dram is, I am a bit surprised that there aren't people out there purpose fitting dual web + scram cruisers to kill it. I've posted this before but I thought that a ship that otherwise nobody uses, the Republic Fleet Scythe, or even the humble Bellicose, could fill this role. Of course, you'd still have to catch the thing, but that's another story.
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2010.03.29 00:19:00 - [159] Originally by: chatgris Any dram pilot that gets in web/medium neut range in the first place is NOT a competent dram pilot. Those that fly it that way could just as well fly a claw for 10% of the price and do the same job better. Flying a ship way below its potential is never a sign of a competent pilot, imo.
eXtas NibbleTek	Posted - 2010.03.29 01:55:00 - [160] Originally by: Omara Otawan Edited by: Omara Otawan on 29/03/2010 00:30:08 Originally by: chatgris Any dram pilot that gets in web/medium neut range in the first place is NOT a competent dram pilot. Those that fly it that way could just as well fly a claw for 10% of the price and do the same job better. Or a navy slicer if they feel like flying something fancy. Flying a ship way below its potential is never a sign of a competent pilot, imo. totaly depends on what you are atacking, why would you go into webb range of a ishkur or jaguar when you can outrange them? (unless ishkur got rails but then you can orbit so they wont hit) yes daredevils can kill dramiels and are really nasty but they got more drawbacks then a dramiel. -weapons use cap -only kin/therm damage type -no drones! -short range with blasters -lower lock range/scan res -slower tho 90% webb makes up for that it does about 50% more eft damage fitted with blasters then dramiel and about same damage fitted with rails. rails give the option to safer engage targets and more targets you can possibly kill without dieing :P

Msgerbs Gallente Imperial Assualt Guild Raikiri Assasins	Posted - 2010.03.29 02:35:00 - [161] Originally by: AdmiralJohn Originally by: King Rothgar Waah I didn't get an easy kill because some guy flew better than me, please change his play style so I can get more free kills. because it's such skill to fly within 500m of a nueting dual-webbing scramming myrmidon with warrior IIs. As a matter of fact I think I'll go try that right now. ------ C&P wannabe Originally by: CCP Zymurgist doing what C&P is great for... Blowing them up! Heck pod everyone you pirates, Get off the forums and go kill someone!
baltec1 Antares Shipyards	Posted - 2010.03.29 07:34:00 - [162] Originally by: masternerdguy Originally by: Omara Otawan Edited by: Omara Otawan on 27/03/2010 21:38:47 Originally by: Stuart Price Also, yeah, you could buy a lot of Rifters for the cost of a Dramiel. Could you also buy the pilots to fly those Rifters? If not, you're stuck flying them one by one. Reckon you could kill a Dramiel on one of those occassions? If you are really thinking a rifter should have a chance 1v1 you are delusional. Eve is not a duelling game, so balancing around 1v1 situations is hilariously stupid. Look at how balanced claw vs any other combat inty is for example. Nerf claw? You can kill it in an AF solo, or another pirate frig. You can 'blob' it with a buddy in 2 rifters. That will have to suffice I'm afraid. the issue is that even 4 intys can be beaten by a dramiel, I can find that KM somewhere where an inty killed all 4 of our intys and got out with half armor. It's faster than an inty, more dps, etc. AND RAISING PRICE WONT DO ANYTHING After killing a coercer the following was said in local. Verlathor159 > Bet they feel silly, a caracle, merlin and drake couldn't destroy an iteron :S My point? Pilots who who fly badly can get steamrolled by just about anything. If you lost 4 intis vs a single dram then the problem lies with you.
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.03.29 09:28:00 - [163] Originally by: Omara Otawan If frigate performance was measured against it, you'd have to nerf some t1 frigates The saddest thing is that is it true. Worm only "works" because it can outlast an opponent due to tank, damage is so low its a disgrace to all faction hulls. Tanks like a cruiser and hits like a noob-ship, bring those closer towards the centre and it becomes a force to be reckoned with. Moving a mid to high (not low as to not step on Daredevil) and reducing capacitor to normal AC boat levels minimizes the current OP'ness by forcing sacrifice when fitting the infernal. Still a speedster, still well above damage, still tanky but never at the same time = balance. Originally by: Bomberlocks On the other hand, given how expensive the Dram is, I am a bit surprised that there aren't people out there purpose fitting dual web + scram cruisers to kill it. Cruisers will need an AB to keep up even with a dual-webbed infernal so it can still escape should it choose to. Even when you manage to find ships that can spare 3 slots for tackle you will need neutralizer, drones and AB as well as high tracking guns to get a kill.
Kendon Riddick	Posted - 2010.03.29 09:56:00 - [164] Worms would be good if it wasnt for the constant iching.
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2010.03.29 12:13:00 - [165] Originally by: eXtas totaly depends on what you are atacking, why would you go into webb range of a ishkur or jaguar when you can outrange them? (unless ishkur got rails but then you can orbit so they wont hit) Not that Ishkur or Jaguar are the things you'd engage anyway unless you are sure their backup will take a few minutes to get there. Outranging doesnt help much once they take away your drones, and that happens quite fast; after they are gone you'll have trouble getting past the Jaguars passive recharge at range. Apart from catching noobs off-guard at a celestial, I dont see any incentive to go for the kiting setup really, just makes killing the things you can reliably kill more difficult and time-consuming, besides it works just as well with a variety of ships. As soon as a third player enters the match it is time to bail in both cases. Originally by: eXtas -no drones! -short range with blasters -lower lock range/scan res -slower tho 90% webb makes up for that it does about 50% more eft damage fitted with blasters then dramiel and about same damage fitted with rails. Having dps not drone-based is not a drawback, its an advantage. Blasters are short-range, but that is absolutely no problem with 90% webs. EFT dps is EFT dps after all, but a decent daredevil fit has about twice the dps of a dramiel or more (not +50%), and only slightly less buffer (~ 15% less). Decent escape option is there with the web bonus as well if fit properly.
MaraudR73	Posted - 2010.03.29 18:51:00 - [166] Boost Rockets and Caldari Faction ships!! hawk and hookbill can only do about 100 dps with rockets and any other frigate does about 180 dps!
Eno Lacigol Amarr DAEDALUS X	Posted - 2010.03.30 18:21:00 - [167] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Congratulations on missing the point. The problem is not that the Dramiel does something better than another ship, it's that the Dramiel does *everything* better than every other frigate. There's literally no reason to fly another frigate if you can fly a Dramiel. There is a reason, its is more cost prohibitive than any other frig.
Terianna Eri Amarr Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn	Posted - 2010.03.30 18:24:00 - [168] Originally by: Eno Lacigol Originally by: Merin Ryskin Congratulations on missing the point. The problem is not that the Dramiel does something better than another ship, it's that the Dramiel does *everything* better than every other frigate. There's literally no reason to fly another frigate if you can fly a Dramiel. There is a reason, its is more cost prohibitive than any other frig. Holy crap how are people still bringing cost into this. It's no more expensive than a Cruor or Worm and less expensive than a Daredevil. ________________ Originally by: CCP Incognito PS the "time to P*nis" is the shortest time recorded in human history. :)
Zarnak Wulf	Posted - 2010.03.30 18:44:00 - [169] I've never met a frigate problem that a 15 million isk Thrasher couldn't fix.
Meeko Atari	Posted - 2010.03.30 18:47:00 - [170] Don't know what all the fuss is about, a Thrasher will kill or scare the s h i t out of a Dramiel pilot. All for less than 5 mill fully fitted with the right skills. The right tool for the right job!

Eno Lacigol Amarr DAEDALUS X	Posted - 2010.03.30 18:50:00 - [171] Originally by: Terianna Eri Holy crap how are people still bringing cost into this. I was a bit late for the *** session. Originally by:** Terianna Eri It's no more expensive than a Cruor or Worm and less expensive than a Daredevil. The cheapest Dramiel see right now for buy out if 65 mil. That is more than 4 times the cost of some of the cheaper AF and interceptors (ones in the 10-15 mil price bracket), and 2 to 3 times the cost of the more expensive AF cepters and ewar frigs.
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.03.30 19:01:00 - [172] Originally by: Eno Lacigol The cheapest Dramiel see right now for buy out if 65 mil. That is more than 4 times the cost of some of the cheaper AF and interceptors (ones in the 10-15 mil price bracket), and 2 to 3 times the cost of the more expensive AF cepters and ewar frigs. Now include the fact that it is at least ten times more survivable in its theatre of operation (which is the exact same as T2 frigates) and price actually becomes significantly lower than all other options. People are spamming these things in such numbers that the price argument is dead and buried without even bringing in general balance between classes as breaking down if price is used.
Terianna Eri Amarr Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn	Posted - 2010.03.30 19:08:00 - [173] Originally by: Eno Lacigol Originally by: Terianna Eri Holy crap how are people still bringing cost into this. I was a bit late for the *** session. Well that's what you get for not reading the thread I guess Originally by:** Eno Lacigol Originally by: Terianna Eri It's no more expensive than a Cruor or Worm and less expensive than a Daredevil. The cheapest Dramiel see right now for buy out if 65 mil. That is more than 4 times the cost of some of the cheaper AF and interceptors (ones in the 10-15 mil price bracket), and 2 to 3 times the cost of the more expensive AF cepters and ewar frigs. see previous posts ________________ Originally by: CCP Incognito PS the "time to P*nis" is the shortest time recorded in human history. :)
masternerdguy Gallente Caldari Naval Reserve	Posted - 2010.03.31 21:49:00 - [174] Originally by: Desudes I just want to know why a faction frig can get into minor FW plexes but af/cepter can't. i also don't understand this. Faction frigs are clearly not T1 and are definately superior to T2 (in the case of the dramiel). Why? What ends up happening is I'm stuck in a plex with a merlin or rifter (rifter is a fine ship, but it won't do much to a dramiel) and then some dramiel warps in and approaches me the entire 50km and points me before I can even align out and then snipes with autocannons (sniping with autocannons) and I die.


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