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Why Dramiels and Worms are broken.

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Proxyyyy Caldari The Tuskers	Posted - 2010.03.28 03:22:00 - [151] "competent pilot" is said to much! In a optimal situation in low sec, With both a drameil pilot and ishkur/jaguar/Harpy pilot engaging under 10k. With the af pilot fitting ab's like most do and the drameil pilot fitting forum popular duel prop or the not so forum popular mwd kiting setup which you mostly see on tranq. The af's better tank more damage and combination of overheating its afterburner with web/scram will indeed beat the drameil everytime. unless he doesnt engage at all which would be wise. Of course this is in optimal situation where no one makes a mistake and are forced to engage each other. The drameil fits that are ungodly (Which is what i called my ab/dramiel). Are better than the duel/prop or mwd versions under 10k. Infact no frigate/destroyer in-game bar the Daredevil/curor stands a chance against said fit. Many of the best pilots i know in-game who have flown the drameil and have attacked many things with them, sometimes successful, sometimes not. They know not to engage certain ships and possible setups, because the drameil has weakneses that can be exploited based on theyre current fit. Most of them flying the forum fav the duel-prop/drameil. Once you start naming off ships that are capable of beating a non ab/web/scram drameil. They dont seem so impressive. Honestly; that's why i have no issue with the dramel. As long as im aware of the love and push for duel prop drameils and are seeing alot of mwding kiting drams i will continue to engage them with my af's or thrasher. I believe their are 2 fits for the drameil and 2 destinct roles it can play in-game. Mind you! There is no fit that enables it to fill both roles effectively. Interceptor - Imo The duel prop and mwding drameils is far better than any interceptor ingame. Assault ship - When fit with a ab/web/scram you can fit the dram with more range damage and tank. its abiltiy under scram range is not matched. With all that being said, you have to choose which setup you want. By going duel-prop or mwd, your filling the tackling role or trying to gain the abiltiy to effectively engage a samll minority of the frigate class (Interceptors). With the ab fit, you dominate the majority of the frigate class and are still able to fill the tackling role. Tbh The only frigate i believe can play both roles effectively is the daredevil = / Ive been touched up by that thing a few times in a af and honestly the damage is insane! If it can do that to 2 of the most tanky af's before they can even come close to getting it past 70% amor something is off. Ive recently been also conviced that the rail version is also the best version to fly. In anycase their has to be a number 1 ship and a number 2. There are things that are better than others and that will always be the case no matter how much people b!tch... As for the worm it has a role and after being chased off by a coecer in my drameil. then coming back to fight that same coecer with my worm and beating him. I was convinced! After losing my worm to sentries because of a game glitch and ccp did nothing even after submiting a link to the fraps. I sold my drameil and other pirate faction frigs because i do to many risky things and i cant afford to keep up with the losses. So figure out the many roles you want your ship to play (if it can) and fit it appropriately!
Aerilis Gallente Quantum Cats Syndicate	Posted - 2010.03.28 03:30:00 - [152] Edited by: Aerilis on 28/03/2010 03:36:29 Originally by: Ephemeron Originally by: Stuart Price SUPPLY AND DEMAND. Are you being deliberately thick or are you actually ******ed? You are the one ignoring this simple concept, why don't you teach it to the rest of this ignorant crowd if you are so smart. Explain to them how much Dramiel costs. And explain how it could be balanced more by increasing the costs. Dramiels aren't a scarce resource, normal supply and demand doesn't apply. Price needs to be artificially propped up if you want it to more accurately reflect equilibrium price. l2econ ------------------------------ [WTS] Dominix Navy Issues - 500M
Desudes	Posted - 2010.03.28 11:44:00 - [153] I just want to know why a faction frig can get into minor FW plexes but af/cepter can't.
mikeh24 Harbingers of Chaos Inc. Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2010.03.28 17:18:00 - [154] Confirming op is a pro troll
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2010.03.28 20:10:00 - [155] Originally by: mikeh24 Confirming op is a pro troll Yep confirmations from noobs is always welcome. So are you saying that dramiel is balanced vs the worm? :O
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2010.03.28 22:25:00 - [156] Edited by: Omara Otawan on 28/03/2010 22:25:38 Originally by: Naomi Knight So are you saying that dramiel is balanced vs the worm? :O Since when is the performancee of the worm the measure of all things again? Get a grip, the worm has 2 wasted bonuses, one of its main weapon systems is broken beyond belief, and it overall lacks a clear design concept. If frigate performance was measured against it, you'd have to nerf some t1 frigates
chatgris Quantum Cats Syndicate	Posted - 2010.03.28 22:36:00 - [157] Originally by: Proxyyyy "competent pilot" is said to much! In a optimal situation in low sec, With both a drameil pilot and ishkur/jaguar/Harpy pilot engaging under 10k. Any dram pilot that gets in web/medium neut range in the first place is NOT a competent dram pilot.
Bomberlocks Minmatar Star Bombers	Posted - 2010.03.28 23:25:00 - [158] The whole Dramiel story seems a bit on the ridiculous side. I suppose the proliferation of Dramiels in local is a testament to just how good it is, but it isn't invincible, just very hard to get to a point where you can actually hit it for long enough to destroy it. The thing is that it does seem a bit OP compared to other frigates, but whether this is bad or good, I don't know. I suppose the endgame is everybody who can will fly a Dramiel and those can't will have to make use of numbers to compensate. If there is going to be a nerf to the Dram, the best thing to nerf would possibly be the drones. Three drones in a ship that is already quite a bit better than a Taranis seems a bit much. Leaving everything else as it is, a Dram with only 1 drone would be a bit less potent, but still very, very good. On the other hand, given how expensive the Dram is, I am a bit surprised that there aren't people out there purpose fitting dual web + scram cruisers to kill it. I've posted this before but I thought that a ship that otherwise nobody uses, the Republic Fleet Scythe, or even the humble Bellicose, could fill this role. Of course, you'd still have to catch the thing, but that's another story.
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2010.03.29 00:19:00 - [159] Originally by: chatgris Any dram pilot that gets in web/medium neut range in the first place is NOT a competent dram pilot. Those that fly it that way could just as well fly a claw for 10% of the price and do the same job better. Flying a ship way below its potential is never a sign of a competent pilot, imo.
eXtas NibbleTek	Posted - 2010.03.29 01:55:00 - [160] Originally by: Omara Otawan Edited by: Omara Otawan on 29/03/2010 00:30:08 Originally by: chatgris Any dram pilot that gets in web/medium neut range in the first place is NOT a competent dram pilot. Those that fly it that way could just as well fly a claw for 10% of the price and do the same job better. Or a navy slicer if they feel like flying something fancy. Flying a ship way below its potential is never a sign of a competent pilot, imo. totaly depends on what you are atacking, why would you go into webb range of a ishkur or jaguar when you can outrange them? (unless ishkur got rails but then you can orbit so they wont hit) yes daredevils can kill dramiels and are really nasty but they got more drawbacks then a dramiel. -weapons use cap -only kin/therm damage type -no drones! -short range with blasters -lower lock range/scan res -slower tho 90% webb makes up for that it does about 50% more eft damage fitted with blasters then dramiel and about same damage fitted with rails. rails give the option to safer engage targets and more targets you can possibly kill without dieing :P
Msgerbs Gallente Imperial Assualt Guild Raikiri Assasins	Posted - 2010.03.29 02:35:00 - [161] Originally by: AdmiralJohn Originally by: King Rothgar Waah I didn't get an easy kill because some guy flew better than me, please change his play style so I can get more free kills. because it's such skill to fly within 500m of a nueting dual-webbing scramming myrmidon with warrior IIs. As a matter of fact I think I'll go try that right now. ------ C&P wannabe Originally by: CCP Zymurgist doing what C&P is great for... Blowing them up! Heck pod everyone you pirates, Get off the forums and go kill someone!
baltec1 Antares Shipyards	Posted - 2010.03.29 07:34:00 - [162] Originally by: masternerdguy Originally by: Omara Otawan Edited by: Omara Otawan on 27/03/2010 21:38:47 Originally by: Stuart Price Also, yeah, you could buy a lot of Rifters for the cost of a Dramiel. Could you also buy the pilots to fly those Rifters? If not, you're stuck flying them one by one. Reckon you could kill a Dramiel on one of those occassions? If you are really thinking a rifter should have a chance 1v1 you are delusional. Eve is not a duelling game, so balancing around 1v1 situations is hilariously stupid. Look at how balanced claw vs any other combat inty is for example. Nerf claw? You can kill it in an AF solo, or another pirate frig. You can 'blob' it with a buddy in 2 rifters. That will have to suffice I'm afraid. the issue is that even 4 intys can be beaten by a dramiel, I can find that KM somewhere where an inty killed all 4 of our intys and got out with half armor. It's faster than an inty, more dps, etc. AND RAISING PRICE WONT DO ANYTHING After killing a coercer the following was said in local. Verlathor159 > Bet they feel silly, a caracle, merlin and drake couldn't destroy an iteron :S My point? Pilots who who fly badly can get steamrolled by just about anything. If you lost 4 intis vs a single dram then the problem lies with you.
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.03.29 09:28:00 - [163] Originally by: Omara Otawan If frigate performance was measured against it, you'd have to nerf some t1 frigates The saddest thing is that is it true. Worm only "works" because it can outlast an opponent due to tank, damage is so low its a disgrace to all faction hulls. Tanks like a cruiser and hits like a noob-ship, bring those closer towards the centre and it becomes a force to be reckoned with. Moving a mid to high (not low as to not step on Daredevil) and reducing capacitor to normal AC boat levels minimizes the current OP'ness by forcing sacrifice when fitting the infernal. Still a speedster, still well above damage, still tanky but never at the same time = balance. Originally by: Bomberlocks On the other hand, given how expensive the Dram is, I am a bit surprised that there aren't people out there purpose fitting dual web + scram cruisers to kill it. Cruisers will need an AB to keep up even with a dual-webbed infernal so it can still escape should it choose to. Even when you manage to find ships that can spare 3 slots for tackle you will need neutralizer, drones and AB as well as high tracking guns to get a kill.
Kendon Riddick	Posted - 2010.03.29 09:56:00 - [164] Worms would be good if it wasnt for the constant iching.
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2010.03.29 12:13:00 - [165] Originally by: eXtas totaly depends on what you are atacking, why would you go into webb range of a ishkur or jaguar when you can outrange them? (unless ishkur got rails but then you can orbit so they wont hit) Not that Ishkur or Jaguar are the things you'd engage anyway unless you are sure their backup will take a few minutes to get there. Outranging doesnt help much once they take away your drones, and that happens quite fast; after they are gone you'll have trouble getting past the Jaguars passive recharge at range. Apart from catching noobs off-guard at a celestial, I dont see any incentive to go for the kiting setup really, just makes killing the things you can reliably kill more difficult and time-consuming, besides it works just as well with a variety of ships. As soon as a third player enters the match it is time to bail in both cases. Originally by: eXtas -no drones! -short range with blasters -lower lock range/scan res -slower tho 90% webb makes up for that it does about 50% more eft damage fitted with blasters then dramiel and about same damage fitted with rails. Having dps not drone-based is not a drawback, its an advantage. Blasters are short-range, but that is absolutely no problem with 90% webs. EFT dps is EFT dps after all, but a decent daredevil fit has about twice the dps of a dramiel or more (not +50%), and only slightly less buffer (~ 15% less). Decent escape option is there with the web bonus as well if fit properly.
MaraudR73	Posted - 2010.03.29 18:51:00 - [166] Boost Rockets and Caldari Faction ships!! hawk and hookbill can only do about 100 dps with rockets and any other frigate does about 180 dps!
Eno Lacigol Amarr DAEDALUS X	Posted - 2010.03.30 18:21:00 - [167] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Congratulations on missing the point. The problem is not that the Dramiel does something better than another ship, it's that the Dramiel does *everything* better than every other frigate. There's literally no reason to fly another frigate if you can fly a Dramiel. There is a reason, its is more cost prohibitive than any other frig.
Terianna Eri Amarr Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn	Posted - 2010.03.30 18:24:00 - [168] Originally by: Eno Lacigol Originally by: Merin Ryskin Congratulations on missing the point. The problem is not that the Dramiel does something better than another ship, it's that the Dramiel does *everything* better than every other frigate. There's literally no reason to fly another frigate if you can fly a Dramiel. There is a reason, its is more cost prohibitive than any other frig. Holy crap how are people still bringing cost into this. It's no more expensive than a Cruor or Worm and less expensive than a Daredevil. ________________ Originally by: CCP Incognito PS the "time to P*nis" is the shortest time recorded in human history. :)
Zarnak Wulf	Posted - 2010.03.30 18:44:00 - [169] I've never met a frigate problem that a 15 million isk Thrasher couldn't fix.
Meeko Atari	Posted - 2010.03.30 18:47:00 - [170] Don't know what all the fuss is about, a Thrasher will kill or scare the s h i t out of a Dramiel pilot. All for less than 5 mill fully fitted with the right skills. The right tool for the right job!
Eno Lacigol Amarr DAEDALUS X	Posted - 2010.03.30 18:50:00 - [171] Originally by: Terianna Eri Holy crap how are people still bringing cost into this. I was a bit late for the *** session. Originally by:** Terianna Eri It's no more expensive than a Cruor or Worm and less expensive than a Daredevil. The cheapest Dramiel see right now for buy out if 65 mil. That is more than 4 times the cost of some of the cheaper AF and interceptors (ones in the 10-15 mil price bracket), and 2 to 3 times the cost of the more expensive AF cepters and ewar frigs.
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.03.30 19:01:00 - [172] Originally by: Eno Lacigol The cheapest Dramiel see right now for buy out if 65 mil. That is more than 4 times the cost of some of the cheaper AF and interceptors (ones in the 10-15 mil price bracket), and 2 to 3 times the cost of the more expensive AF cepters and ewar frigs. Now include the fact that it is at least ten times more survivable in its theatre of operation (which is the exact same as T2 frigates) and price actually becomes significantly lower than all other options. People are spamming these things in such numbers that the price argument is dead and buried without even bringing in general balance between classes as breaking down if price is used.
Terianna Eri Amarr Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn	Posted - 2010.03.30 19:08:00 - [173] Originally by: Eno Lacigol Originally by: Terianna Eri Holy crap how are people still bringing cost into this. I was a bit late for the *** session. Well that's what you get for not reading the thread I guess Originally by:** Eno Lacigol Originally by: Terianna Eri It's no more expensive than a Cruor or Worm and less expensive than a Daredevil. The cheapest Dramiel see right now for buy out if 65 mil. That is more than 4 times the cost of some of the cheaper AF and interceptors (ones in the 10-15 mil price bracket), and 2 to 3 times the cost of the more expensive AF cepters and ewar frigs. see previous posts ________________ Originally by: CCP Incognito PS the "time to P*nis" is the shortest time recorded in human history. :)
masternerdguy Gallente Caldari Naval Reserve	Posted - 2010.03.31 21:49:00 - [174] Originally by: Desudes I just want to know why a faction frig can get into minor FW plexes but af/cepter can't. i also don't understand this. Faction frigs are clearly not T1 and are definately superior to T2 (in the case of the dramiel). Why? What ends up happening is I'm stuck in a plex with a merlin or rifter (rifter is a fine ship, but it won't do much to a dramiel) and then some dramiel warps in and approaches me the entire 50km and points me before I can even align out and then snipes with autocannons (sniping with autocannons) and I die.

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