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Drachlen
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Posted - 2010.04.03 03:32:00 -
[1]
Greetings everyone!
I've been away from EVE for a couple of weeks now due to finishing up a rather important project at work. Thankfully, now with that finished, I have quite a bit of extra free time once again, and would like to put a decent portion of it toward running another venture.
Some information about me:
My introduction and loan with Roguehalo
My 2b ISK bond offering and audit
The reservation thread (as well as progress) of the aforementioned bond
As with all my previous efforts toward the market, I'd like to once again focus my efforts in Heimatar. In the previous ventures, I had intended to make use of multiple regions, but it was never an absolute necessity. Again, it's possible that I will split myself between Heimatar and another region, but it's not a guarantee.
I still have my Obelisk, which also may be put to use. In the case that I do use my Obelisk, no low sec travel will take place, and I will never be using auto-pilot. In addition to that, I will not ever be hauling enough cargo to gain the interest of a high-sec freighter gank squad. It's still possible that it could happen, but it will be very insignificant in the grand scheme.
THE PLAN:
It's called a Ship Bond because one of my primary interests in trade is buying and reselling ships. I will not be manufacturing anything, only reselling. During my last bond I dabbled in ship trade and can definitely say i's a major preference of mine as far as one of the more interesting markets.
Besides trading ships, I will of course still trade in staple items that I've already found to be consistently successful.
RISKS:
As far as potential risks of losses due to ganks or similar fiery explosions, I will almost always be docked, I'm in an NPC corporation, and in the event I do end up hauling cargo, it will be a very modest amount, as well as fully attended at all times.
As far as my burning out / real life getting in the way: I am currently on an extended break from work, which means I can easily get in enough time to cover the first month of payments.
Scam potential: This bond is decently larger than my previous offering. I'm offering 10% on it to hopefully help mitigate risk. So far, my experience working with investors has been incredibly positive, and definitely one of the more exciting aspects of the game for me. Basically, I can't see myself wanting to scam because it's too rewarding to start and run successful businesses in the manner I have thus far.
BREAKDOWN:
10b Bond offered at 10% per month
The bond will run for a minimum of 1 month. At which point, an assessment will be made on my part to ensure I can properly run the bond for an additional month. Investors will then have the choice to continue for an additional month, or cash out at that point. Realistically, it looks like I'll be able to manage this venture for 2 or 3 months without a hitch.
I'd like investments to too be in increments of 100 million ISK.
Please feel free to make reservations within this thread. It is not necessary to transfer any ISK at this point.
Once the reservations are filled, I will request the transfer of ISK. Once all ISK is received, that will signify the starting date of the bond.
10b remaining
RESERVATIONS:
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Ji Sama
Caldari
Tash-Murkon Prime Industries
United Corporations Of Modern Eve
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Posted - 2010.04.03 03:42:00 -
[2]
Why 10 Billion?
Why not 4? or 5? or 12? or 14?
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SetrakDark
DarkCorp Holdings
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Posted - 2010.04.03 04:01:00 -
[3]
Who is quiobm and why wasn't he disclosed in the audit?
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Dethmourne Silvermane
Gallente
SRS Industries
SRS.
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Posted - 2010.04.03 04:03:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: SetrakDark
Who is quiobm and why wasn't he disclosed in the audit?
Based entirely on the link you provided, that is an unrelated-to-this-user character, who bought a GTC after Drachlen was unable to purchase it.
-----
Regarding high-sec mining:
Originally by: AmarrettoDiAmarr
3-4 million ISK/hr is perhaps .15 0r .20 US$/hr; not quite prison wages and you are around less honest people.
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SetrakDark
DarkCorp Holdings
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Posted - 2010.04.03 04:06:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Dethmourne Silvermane
Originally by: SetrakDark
Who is quiobm and why wasn't he disclosed in the audit?
Based entirely on the link you provided, that is an unrelated-to-this-user character, who bought a GTC after Drachlen was unable to purchase it.
rofl. **** me. im going to bed. thanks for clearing that up.
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flakeys
DRAMA Inc
OWN Alliance
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Posted - 2010.04.03 10:08:00 -
[6]
Allthough you made a good start at this point allready i have mixed feelings with the amount of 10 billion.You are going from 2 billion to 10 billion with no security wich is a VERRY big step forward.
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2010.04.03 11:27:00 -
[7]
What is going to happen when, not if, your job brings you yet another eve impacting big project? |
Drachlen
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Posted - 2010.04.03 12:08:00 -
[8]
morning all...
Originally by: Ji Sama
Why 10 Billion?
Why not 4? or 5? or 12? or 14?
In all of my ventures thus far, I've never felt I was even close to utilizing the full potential of the time I have available as well as the actually skills available on my character. 10 billion seems like a good round number to work with, especially when offering 10% on it.
If it's believed that it's too high risk at current rates, I could offer two potential alternatives... A slightly higher return (12%) or simply raise less money. In the case of simply using less (such as 5 billion) I really do think there's a lot of wasted potential. But I'm certainly understanding to the fact that it's a large gap.
Originally by: Shar Tegral
What is going to happen when, not if, your job brings you yet another eve impacting big project?
I'm very careful when it comes to allocating personal time and work time. As mentioned before, I'm on an extended break from work at the moment which guarantees me enough free time to run this for at least a month. As with all of my ventures so far, I plan my time accordingly. This is why I can only guarantee it will run for at least one month. After the month is up, based on my schedule and availability, I can very comfortable decide if I can carry on for another full month. In this case, It's very likely that I will be able to run this one for a good amount of time.
Thanks for input so far.
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2010.04.03 13:20:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Drachlen
Scam potential: I'm offering 10% on it to hopefully help mitigate risk.
Might I quote one of Dogbert's rules of investing: - Appeal To Greed
You can short-circuit the two or three neurons that people use for common sense by appealing their greed. Nothing defines humans better than their willingness to do irrational things in the pursuit of phenomenally unlikely payoffs.
This is the principle behind lotteries, dating and religion.
A high ROI does not, in any way, mitigate risk in any fashion whatsoever. People who offer this are either clueless or lying. Investors who request this are either lying or fools. Collateral, exclusively, mitigates scam risk. Originally by: Drachlen
So far, my experience working with investors has been incredibly positive, and definitely one of the more exciting aspects of the game for me.
This is what golfer's, marketing personnel, and con-men, would call the follow through. So, to give you the benefit of the doubt, could you please tell us what experiences with investors that you are having that is so rewarding?
Wealth, howsoever got, in Eve makes
Lords of morons and gentlemen of thieves;
Aptitude and intellect are needless here;
'Tis impudence and money that grants fame. |
Drachlen
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Posted - 2010.04.03 14:09:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Shar Tegral
A high ROI does not, in any way, mitigate risk in any fashion whatsoever. People who offer this are either clueless or lying. Investors who request this are either lying or fools. Collateral, exclusively, mitigates scam risk.
I certainly did not mean to imply otherwise. I do not post much, however I do read quite a bit. It is common practice around here to offer higher returns on higher amounts requested when you're a newer player. This is my interpretation of the way ventures often work, whether or not it makes the most logical sense, it is the preferred method of going about it. Investors are rewarded higher in a higher risk situation. Mitigate was definitely the wrong word, which was a mistake on my part.
Originally by: Shar Tegral
So, to give you the benefit of the doubt, could you please tell us what experiences with investors that you are having that is so rewarding?
Thus far I've had the great pleasure of initially working with Roguehalo (in addition to other investors), which was incredibly successful. In my time spent reading these forums, all of my posting and threads so far have been incredibly well received, as well as all investors pleased with the outcomes. This is very rewarding on multiple levels, as I am aware that it's often rough to get a start in this area. In my case, everything has gone off without a hitch, which indicates to me that my time spent lurking and observing paid off quite well.
Besides that, doing trade in this manner, working with individuals, having this kind of interaction with investors and other players is an incredibly neat concept. Playing the game in this manner unlocks a great deal of potential and ideas that would otherwise be unobtainable for me... This trading is only the tip of the iceberg as far as my interest here...
Overall, it's just fun. It's been a really great experience so far.
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Taram Caldar
Royal Black Watch Highlanders
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Posted - 2010.04.04 04:48:00 -
[11]
10 bil is a lot... unsecured though the 10% rate somewhat covers that part. I'd really like to see a full audit done before I consider investing in this.
Market Alerts Mailing List
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Rogueresearch
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Posted - 2010.04.04 14:54:00 -
[12]
I'll stick in 2b
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Roguehalo
Caldari
Resonance Laboratories
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Posted - 2010.04.04 14:57:00 -
[13]
hmm last post was me.
So I'll stick in 2b not Rogueresearch
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RAW23
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Posted - 2010.04.04 15:12:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Shar Tegral
A high ROI does not, in any way, mitigate risk in any fashion whatsoever. People who offer this are either clueless or lying. Investors who request this are either lying or fools. Collateral, exclusively, mitigates scam risk.
Whilst it is true that a high ROI does not mitigate the objective risk of scamming (someone who has decided to scam will not change his mind because he has offered a high ROI) or of business failure (in fact a high ROI can actually contribute to this) it does mitigate the costs associated with the risk when it is assumed that an investor makes more than one investment. Since objectively accurate information on whether an offerer will scam or their business will fail is rarely, if ever, available, investors in bonds or shares that are not fully collateralised must take a gamble on any offering and assign some probability to an investment being safe. A higher return across the board on riskier investments helps hedge against the inevitable failure of some of them. So high ROIs do not mitigate against risk but they do help compensate for it and I expect this is probably what the OP meant.
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Mahke
Aeon Of Strife
Discord.
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Posted - 2010.04.04 15:14:00 -
[15]
No offense, but, the too-good-to-be-true alarm is going off.
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Elune Silvermane
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Posted - 2010.04.04 15:19:00 -
[16]
I'd be interested in reserving 500m
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Dethmourne Silvermane
Gallente
SRS Industries
SRS.
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Posted - 2010.04.04 15:20:00 -
[17]
^^ wrong character.
-I- want to invest 500m, not the toon I decided to look into selling.
Regarding high-sec mining:
Originally by: AmarrettoDiAmarr
3-4 million ISK/hr is perhaps .15 0r .20 US$/hr; not quite prison wages and you are around less honest people.
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Roguehalo
Caldari
Resonance Laboratories
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Posted - 2010.04.04 15:20:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Roguehalo on 04/04/2010 15:22:45
What most mitigates against uncollaterallized scam is the ability to distinguish between those who are capable and enthusiastic about what they say they can do and those who just make it up.
I believe Drachlen wants to and is capable of trading ships and I believe he can make a go of it.
I never believed a word of what General Newbold said and the many others on whose offerings I have called scam in the past.
Edit : to make the post clearer
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2010.04.04 15:46:00 -
[19]
Originally by: RAW23
A higher return across the board on riskier investments helps hedge against the inevitable failure of some of them. So high ROIs do not mitigate against risk but they do help compensate for it and I expect this is probably what the OP meant.
I guess this is one of those area where we'll have to agree to disagree. I understand the concept of a higher return on riskier investments. However riskier can be qualified as: - Newer Player Collateralized but still at risk for business failure. - Older Player Collateralized/Not Collateralized but at risk of war or other vagaries. The problem with using high ROI to "cover" or "compensate" for scam risk or potential is that it's the Jita X4Y deal. Give me X and I'll give you Y. There's very high return alright but it's as covering or compensating as a Micro G-String on Rosanne Bar. And as pretty if you take an honest look. This is the specific thing that I'll constantly post about and against. Ask for higher ROI for the right reasons. Bad enough new investors don't know much, don't need to have false positive information floating around as well.
Wealth, howsoever got, in Eve makes
Lords of morons and gentlemen of thieves;
Aptitude and intellect are needless here;
'Tis impudence and money that grants fame. |
RAW23
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Posted - 2010.04.04 15:55:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Shar Tegral
There's very high return alright but it's as covering or compensating as a Micro G-String on Rosanne Bar. And as pretty if you take an honest look.
 That image will haunt my dreams.
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Seline Gylen
SG Investments
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Posted - 2010.04.04 23:53:00 -
[21]
Reserving 500m, but I'd really like to see an audit.
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Taram Caldar
Royal Black Watch Highlanders
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Posted - 2010.04.05 00:05:00 -
[22]
I'd reserve up to a bil if I knew there was going to be an audit... but the OP seems to be avoiding the audit question.
Market Alerts Mailing List
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Drachlen
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Posted - 2010.04.05 05:30:00 -
[23]
Greetings everyone..
Originally by: Taram Caldar
I'd reserve up to a bil if I knew there was going to be an audit... but the OP seems to be avoiding the audit question.
This is really frustrating to read... You've been the first person to mention an audit in this thread, and I haven't been around to read it until now. I really don't know how I gave off this impression.
Of course I will gladly receive another audit, though I'm not entirely sure what it's going to achieve. Please though, I've not avoided anything. I'm more than willing to comply with whatever is necessary.
So far 2.5 billion has been reserved.
The input so far has been great,
regards.
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Taram Caldar
Royal Black Watch Highlanders
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Posted - 2010.04.05 16:25:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Drachlen
Greetings everyone..
Originally by: Taram Caldar
I'd reserve up to a bil if I knew there was going to be an audit... but the OP seems to be avoiding the audit question.
This is really frustrating to read... You've been the first person to mention an audit in this thread, and I haven't been around to read it until now. I really don't know how I gave off this impression.
Of course I will gladly receive another audit, though I'm not entirely sure what it's going to achieve. Please though, I've not avoided anything. I'm more than willing to comply with whatever is necessary.
So far 2.5 billion has been reserved.
The input so far has been great,
regards.
Mmmm sorry I generally expect people to check their offerings threads more than once every 3 days. Assumed you'd seen the posts by now. My mistake.
As far as reservations I see at least 3.5 bil just between rogue, deth and 1 other investor, not to mention my statement that I'd reserve a bil depending on what an audit shows (bringing you to 4.5bil in reservations, 2bil of it pending audit).
As far as what an audit would show? No offense but I'm a big proponent of 'just because you've done offerings with audits before doesn't mean you shouldn't get an audit again'. Especially when you're talking about this much isk. You're other offerings weren't even close to this size.
So it triggered my smell test where I get suspicious:
1) quintupled the size of your largest prior offering
2) no collateral
3) no audit offered in the initial offering
4) "I have no clue what good an audit would do but sure I'll get one if I need to"
The only prior audit you had done was for a modest 2bil offering. You haven't gotten a performance audit done on that one so we have no indication whether you can handle a 10bil project or not. A good audit would help clear that up. It would tell us how you progressed from a 2bil project, whether you actually increased NAV since your original project and whether the trading history the auditor sees shows you can handle such a large project.
I *think* you can, which is why I'm interested. I'd just like to see an audit result from a credible auditor to give me something concrete to base those feelings on.
Market Alerts Mailing List
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Trayjan
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.04.05 16:32:00 -
[25]
even if an expansion scam is planned, i think it's early enough in the process that i'm willing to gamble 500M towards this offering.
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Drachlen
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Posted - 2010.04.06 06:50:00 -
[26]
Greetings again,
Thanks for the reservations and input so far.
The reason why I've only accounted for a few reservations thus far is because I'm unsure how to go about this. So far, the majority of reservations have no concern over an audit. Do I maintain two separate lists of investors who are willing to invest now, and investors who are willing to invest after another audit of my trade? If the former list fills, do I simply go with those reservations?
If the majority of investors are willing to invest currently, without seeing another audit, does that not make it an unnecessary expense? The main issue I see is that an audit is going to show exactly the same thing as before (except with slightly larger numbers.) It certainly won't show if I can pull decent margins from basing my trade almost entirely on ships, or other relevant factors.
As far as a proper performance report, who should I seek out? I'm confident that an audit of my trading during the previous bond will show I did quite well with it, but that's about the extent of what it will show. Is there a difference in auditors, and who can properly assess this sort of thing? For example, should I contact the same individuals again, breaker77, Varo Jan, etc, and see who is currently available?
Thanks for input.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2010.04.06 08:17:00 -
[27]
Quote:
If the majority of investors are willing to invest currently, without seeing another audit, does that not make it an unnecessary expense?
Unless you are caught, you can happily circulate with an un-insured Euro Zero car that did not get a revision certificate for 10 years. Some do that.
It's unnecessary to spend, some just think it might be wise to do so.
-
Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read
http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Dalden V
Blue Lounge Industries
New Eden Research
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Posted - 2010.04.06 10:14:00 -
[28]
I'd like to reserve 500M as well please.
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Trayjan
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.04.06 12:40:00 -
[29]
my impression is that this bond is taking longer to fill than would be the case if you simply sought a new audit including the resulting performance on the previous bond.
right now, i suspect that you may not be able to raise the full additional capital without an audit. so in that sense, it is probably worth the time and expense. |
Taram Caldar
Royal Black Watch Highlanders
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Posted - 2010.04.06 14:10:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Taram Caldar on 06/04/2010 14:15:00
Nevermind just re-read and saw your question.
In answer:
It's probably best to keep 2 lists:
Reservations
and
Reservations pending Audit.
Should give you an idea how many people are willing to invest carte blanche and how many are willing to invest after you get an audit.
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